Theonlinecitizen has obtained a copy of the original blog entry by Raffles Institution teacher, Otto Fong. It also includes comments which were originally posted by readers of his article.
The original posting on his own blog has since been taken down.
AN OPEN LETTER FROM OTTO FONG
I am Otto Fong. I have been teaching Science in Raffles Institution for the last eight years.
Being a teacher has been the most rewarding part of my professional life thus far. My students continue to amaze me daily with their wit, maturity, independent thinking and leadership. It is very fulfilling that I am a part of an institution that moulds the future generation of Singapore‘s leaders.
Leaders are people who can rise above the tide of popular opinion, people who are guided by the conviction of rightness and justice and in being so guided, lead others towards that right path.
Recent events leading to my action
Recent events have made me decide to write this open letter. In April this year, Minister Mentor Mr Lee Kuan Yew – one of the school’s greatest alumni – called homosexuality a “genetic variation”, questioning the validity of criminalising gay sex. In July, MP Baey Yam Keng expressed support for the repeal of Section 377A of the penal code (which criminalises gay sex acts). In August, Malaysian columnist and ordained pastor Oyoung Wenfeng released his inspiring new Mandarin book “Tong Gen Sheng”, encouraging gay men and women to come out of the closet.
A few evenings later, I attended a forum organised by People Like Us on gay teachers and students. A few brave twenty-something guys asked, “Why has there been so little guidance available to me as a gay teenager?” It was a question that I had asked myself often, growing up.
When I became a teacher in 1999, I looked back on the good guidance my own teachers gave me as a template, and tried to be a better teacher to my students. Besides teaching them Science, I spent considerable effort in imparting good social values: give up your seats to the needy, save the handicapped parking lot for those in wheelchairs and their caretakers, respect people regardless of profession or social status.
How hate is perpetuated
Yet, in the eight years I have taught, I have done little for that small group of students who are gay. When the religious group Focus on the Family masqueraded as sex guidance counselors and gave a talk full of misinformation about homosexuality to our students, I was furious but kept my mouth shut.
When my niece returned from school saying, “Gays are disgusting!” I knew she learnt that hatred from a classmate, who had in turn absorbed that hatred from a parent. I knew that this hatred has been perpetrated for generations. But hatred grew out of fear, and hatred, as a line in a movie goes, “leads to the Dark Side.” This is the same environment of hatred I grew up in, as a gay teenager and student.
Until Section 377A* is repealed, there will be precious little the Ministry of Education can do to help these students. As a teacher, I am bound by my professional duty to follow the directives of my superiors.
While these events helped crystallize my decision to come out of the closet, my motivation remains deeply personal.
My family and I
As far back as primary six, I have been aware of my attraction towards classmates of the same sex. For those who argued about nurturing factors of the family, my brother and sister grew up under the same parents and remained heterosexuals despite growing up with me in close proximity.
As a teenager, I was very quick to sense society’s aversion towards the ‘sissies’ in my classes. I worked hard to distance myself from them. While I was successful in modifying my outward behavior, my sexual orientation remained unchanged. My denial gnawed at me, and the suppression of my true self resulted in self-destructive behavior during my overseas university years.
Fortunately, my American fraternity mates were supportive. I began to see a counselor who helped me accept myself for who and what I am.
Returning to Singapore, I came out to my family. My father, mother, brother and sister, out of love for their son and brother, walked the long road to acceptance. It was not easy for them, but they loved me before I came out, and they love me after. When I finally settled down with my longtime companion (we have been together for more than nine years), my entire family made sure my nieces and nephews included us in their lives. I loved my family too much to keep them in the dark, to deny them the chance to really know me. And they loved me too much to let some old prejudice tear our family apart.
I kept my sexual orientation a secret at work, and only a handful of my colleagues knew about me.
I don’t want to be a bonsai tree
Not counting my childhood, I have spent more than twenty years in the professional closet. I am nearing my fourth decade on Earth. While I have had some successes in life, I am not content to be just average. As I have often told my students, “Why be average when you can be your best?”
Do you know what a bonsai tree is? A bonsai tree is an imitation of a real tree. It is kept in a small pot with limited nutrients, trimmed constantly to fit someone else’s whim. It looks like a real tree, except it can’t do many things a real tree can. It cannot provide shelter, it cannot find food on its own; its life and death are totally reliant on its owner. It is the plant version of the 3-inch Chinese bound foot for women: useless and painful.
Being in the closet, pretending to be straight, trimming our true selves to suit the whims and expectations of others, is just like being a human bonsai tree. By staying in the closet, we cannot even hope to be average, much less above and beyond average.
I felt that in order to reach my fullest potential as a useful human being, I must first fully accept myself, and face the world honestly. I have lived long enough to know that what I am is not a disease, an aberration or a mental illness.
Hate is not a religious value
Many people have cited many ‘reasons’ for hating homosexuals, just as many people tried to justify their views that the Earth was flat, that the darker skinned should always be inferior, and that women should subjugate their lives to men. The teachings of the world’s great religious traditions offer many words of wisdom, but the interpretations of their human followers are not infallible. As Jesus said in his Sermon on the Mount (yes, a personal Bible was given to me by a great lady and I honored her by reading the book), we must love our neighbors as ourselves. It is a simple teaching, but one that’s rarely followed by those who seek to oppress people different from themselves. The path to enlightenment always faces stubborn resistance. As Mahatma Gandhi said, “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you…”
There are some people who are using homosexuality to advance their personal ambitions vis a vis religion. They claim that the homosexual ‘agenda’ is to make the whole world gay and threaten the stability of the family. Yet, let us examine the evidence: Denmark, Norway and Sweden, the first countries to legalise gay marriage, are more stable than ever – their population has not been converted by gays and their heterosexual divorce rates have even decreased since gays have been afforded legal rights. (William N. Eskridge, Jr and Darren R. Spedale, Oxford University Press, 2006).
The only agenda gay people have is to be able to live with the same rights and dignity as our heterosexual brothers and sisters. Our very vocal opponents are the ones actively preying on innocent people, recruiting them to their cause by spreading fear and misinformation. I hope thinking people will quickly see that it is this small group of vocal objectionists who have a more dangerous agenda, that their fight with gay people has nothing to do with what’s right or wrong, but is merely a litmus test of their political influence. For peace and prosperity to continue, Singapore must always uphold secularism, where each different segment of the population respects the beliefs and rights of the others.
Can a country with no natural resources afford to drive away its own citizens?
There is a very pragmatic reason that you should support the rights and dignity of gay Singaporeans: in this globally-competitive era, Singapore needs her gay sons and daughters, just as we need our Singaporean Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, immigrants, men and women, old folks and young. Most importantly, we need those gay sons and daughters because those gay sons and daughters are Singaporean Muslims, Buddhists, Christians, Hindus, immigrants, men and women, old folks and young. Can a country without natural resources continue to flourish when it starts to drive away its own children?
As I said before, leaders are people who are guided by the conviction of rightness and justice and in being so guided, lead others towards that right path.
I am still a teacher. My main purpose and joy is to teach our youngest citizens, the same ones who will be the leaders of our nation tomorrow. But, I feel I am shortchanging both society and myself by staying in the closet. I must be true to myself. If my colleagues and students, both gay and straight, see that being true to one’s own self has great value, perhaps we can produce a new generation who is truly courageous. A new generation of young people who are proud to be themselves, no matter what difference they have from their classmates. Then I will have succeeded in providing them a better education than I had the opportunity to receive during my years in school.
So here’s what I am, and I am a friend in need at the moment
So here it is: I, Otto Fong, have always been and always will be a gay man. When you ask about my spouse, I will say he is a man. I am as proud being gay as you are proud being straight. I am not, as some people like to label gays, a pedophile, a child molester, a pervert or sexual deviant. I did not choose to be gay, just like heterosexuals did not choose to be straight. I am not going to hell (not for being gay anyway).
I am not going back in the closet. When you ask me who I am, I will answer: I am a son, a brother, a long-time companion, an uncle, a teacher, a classmate, a colleague, a part of your community, a HDB dweller, a Singaporean. And I am also gay.
I would like to enjoy the respect that all other Singaporeans enjoy. I will not let the closet bind my feet, because I am made to sprint. I am not interested in being a bonsai tree, my DNA is programmed to climb higher. My heart aspires to reach my fullest potential as a human being.
I hope, dear friends and colleagues, that you look back and remember what I am, and see that I am not someone you fear. I am essentially the same person – flawed, imperfect, but brought up properly by two loving parents to lead a productive, beneficial and meaningful life. My friends and family love me for who I am, and I hope you can too. I come out to you with as much hope and trepidation as when I first come out to my mother and father. Your support and understanding are very important to me at this moment.
Thank you, may you prosper in health and soul.
Yours sincerely,
Otto Fong
8th Sept 2007
Comments:
christao17 said…
Yeah, Otto! Tawn and I are so proud of you! You’ll certainly face resistence, ignorance, and hostility – but you’ll be pleasantly surprised with how much more support, affection, and appreciation you receive. Best regards!
Bong said…
GO SIR!
As an ex-student from RI, your sexuality was never in doubt. Although you have never taught me, you came across to me as a very cheerful, artistically inclined teacher :) I remember how you tried to teach us how to draw cartoons with your workshops.
Now that you have decided to open up, I can only wish you all the best in your struggle against societal views. I don’t know if this is the right media to open up to, or if the timing is right, or if you have taken precautionary steps beforehand to protect yourself, but one thing that is undeniable is your concern for youths. A simple question of “why has there been so little guidance available to me as a gay teenager?” contributed to this courageous move, by appealing to your “teacherish”/personal instincts to come clean. That is a mark of a great teacher :)
Bless you
-Lim Bing Li (class of 2005)
Jock said…
Hi Otto,
Firstly, I want to let you know that I admire and respect your decision to come out to your friends and especially to the people you work with. I am sure you have thought this through and have the support of your partner, family and your friends.
I will never understand your motivations for choosing a public media like this to reveal such personal insights about yourself and how it can help you be a better teacher and colleague.
What it will only do is provoke a knee jerk reaction from your school, the school’s board and the parents of the students who are paying high tuitions fees to pay your salary. Unfortunately, the group that will stand to lose most are your students, whom you have been an inspiring and admirable teacher, guide, mentor and friends to.
I truly believe that it is time for a change. But I don’t believe that RI, MOE or Singapore is ready to contemplate having a male gay teacher, especially in an all boys school. I may be wrong, but I foresee that in the knee jerk reaction, you will be asked to leave the school. The students, that you so hope to provide guidance to with this announcement will then be deprived of that guidance by such a forward looking teacher like you.
I do sincerely hope that your actions will lead to a positive change in your students, your school and Singapore.
1029 said…
=)
a great read, and great to know. like it or not, i have so many gay friends who are teachers that i have lost count. you made the right decision, and it is time. if not, you wouldn’t have done it.
all the best.
‘ [ gAnNie ] said…
Dear Mr Fong, regardless of your sexuality, you’ll still always be one of our greatest ever teachers.
We believe that your decision to announce this in public media like a blog is not an uncalculated one. Right now we are feeling afraid for you for the potential backlash that you will get. The world isn’t perfect; we have learnt that through our experiences and what you have taught us. The backlash will be great, people being people, gossip will spread like wildfire.
RI’s motto reads “Auspicium Melioris Aevi”. Hope of a better age. Its ironic in a sense that the direction this school is taking may not be relating to this ideal you are strongly advocating. Even right now as this is being typed, people we know, students you might like, are already having an adverse reaction to this. On msn people are reacting. This is life, Headmaster may know, but whatever his stand is, diplomatic or not, do not worry. You are more than justified in being unique and being a special person. Live in that glory, have self belief.
We as leaders under you for two years have seen how you set the foundation for us and pushed us forward. Where we are now, especially in our cca leadership has come from you. We strongly believe that your teaching is too valuable to be compromised because of sexual orientation. RI cant lose this gem. We hope they don’t.
Life in 1E and 2E would have been extremly boring and uneventful if not for your being our FT and we greatly appreciate what you’ve done for us in our lower sec years.
To us, you were definitely more of a teacher than any other teachers we ever had; especially in light of your post. Hence, we thank you for everything and my family supports you in every way too.
Again, this is not a letter in which Si Yuan and Eugene are following the crowd to write letters to you. This is a sincere encouragement to the ideals in which you push for, however faint and unrealistic they seem at the present moment. Eugene “I being a Christian, I know that my religion does not condone this, but I tell you that Christianity is not a religion of rules and strict restrictions. It is one of love and acceptance.” Keep that in mind.
We being your students who have looked up to you so much, admittedly are shocked, but are certain that our respect for you will never change. To end this, we only have to say, expect the worst, its life, but hope for the best, and know that amongst the group of people behind you. Family, partner, friends, you have Yeo Si Yuan and Eugene Gan as well.
We wish you the best!
Yours sincerely
Yeo Si Yuan (Asst. Monitor 0’5, Monitor ’06), Eugene Gan (Treasurer ’05,’06)
Ng Yi-Sheng said…
Thanks, Otto. I’ve read both your comic books – “Sir Fong” and “Sir Fong 2″, so I know about your love of teaching and I can see how brave a step this is. I wish you the best of luck in school, and I only wish my own gay teachers had been as open as you.
skinnylatte said…
I applaud you. Your decision, whatever the implications, makes a difference.
Adrianna
http://www.popagandhi.com
Kevin said…
Mr Otto, as a fairly straight person, I must admit it’s hard to realize the social prejudice faced by someone in the gay community in Singapore.
Aside from your clear documentation of local events, it’s neat that you’ve share your cross-cultural experience as well, so we know how social support structures could be improved.
Finally, I find it quite appropriate that you’ve shared this on your blog, and I do hope more readers / bloggers are encouraged to bear a more open mind and a supportive heart.
–
Kevin Lim
http://theory.isthereason.com
kohfamey said…
Hi Mr Fong. I’m Jie Kai, and I worked with you in a play about 7 years ago, back when I was in RI. This is a very brave decision you are taking. I wish you all the best.
Randuwa said…
Otto,
Your words and your act of integrity is being discovered all around the world. I am also a teacher, 23 years in the elementary school level here in the United States. For the past 13, I have had the privilege of working for a school district where my being gay was no more important than my wearing a green shirt to school! I know it’s not so easy in Singapore. You have all my well wishes.
randy
randuwa.blogspot.com
Sivasothi said…
Dude, what a powerful letter! It was also inspiring to read your student’s comments. You sound like an insightful and dedicated teacher, well done.
All the best.
numbernine said…
Hi,
As an old boy I’ve always found that RI, in spite of its ambivalent attitudes towards unconventional sexuality, has always been a more tolerant place than many would expect. A teacher who taught my year was transgendered. A student from my year was gay. He came out of the closet after he left school but many of us suspected he was gay anyhow. (Later on, the aforementioned student became the subject of controversy when he was dismissed from his post of relief teacher with no explanation given.)
I was also involved (only a bit part) in a drama production which tackled the topic of homosexuality. It won the drama feste, even though admittedly the rest of the script was quite ordinary, so I think the judges were applauding its courage.
I bring all these up because the RI that I studied in did give a fair bit of leeway to homosexuals / transgendered people. I don’t want it to be easy for other people to say “RI is supposed to be like ___” (insert euphemism for “intolerant”).
Because the RI that was so much a part of my youth and growing up was not like that.
Monkey said…
I really applaud you. I have so many gay friends who are as you said, in a professional closet and I think you’ve a great leap forward. This letter was superbly well written and expressed so much love and if nothing else, I can tell you are a great teacher just from reading these words. Indeed, who is there to give students the objective perception of other sexualities in our school systems! We need more like you :)
Colin said…
Well done, Otto. I wish you courage and all the best in the tough days ahead. Thank you for standing up and to be counted.
Lucian said…
This is my personal opinion (insert standard disclaimer).
MOE should fire you.
Only if they’re willing to fire all heterosexual teachers working in schools which have students of the opposite sex.
Thanks for being courageous. We could definitely have a litle more openness and straight (pardon the pun) talk.
loupgarou said…
you are so brave in homophobic singapore..(ok lah,.. only the extremist xtian sects are homophobes)
Saltwetfish said…
Great courage, well done!
Miak said…
we stand with you.
truth, love and courage will stand all trials and tribulations, and there are no greater values to teach the next generation but these
d8nnis said…
You share the same name as my BF!
I’m proud of you coming out, doing the things you believe in.
I live overseas, not because of prejudice, as you get those everywhere in the world (except SFO, AMS and SYD) but also of better opportunities.
I do not think it’s a Singapore issue. We should not have an arguement based on religion. We should also not base our arguement on the pink dollar.
We should leave Politics, Religion and Capitalism out of the picture.
Why should equality be debated on those? We should just have equality regardless, Period.
Eileena said…
Wonderful! I remember you from Oyoung’s “Tong Gen Sheng” launch, glad that you took the big step to come out. Take care and keep well!
Sandy said…
I am so glad the hear that the law may be repealed in Singapore in the near future. I am looking forward to a world where everyone is accepted for who they are everywhere. No prejudices or bigotry. My best to you.
guapochino said…
We are so proud of you! Way to go! I think you have just shown the way. We’re proud to stand behind you and give you our full support!
jeff said…
Wow! this is definitely great!! and wishes more people will have some time to read it.
Bravo Otto, you are fantastic, brave and motivated.
If my son has undergoes a teenage homosexual phase – and needs counselling, personally I would prefer that he sees a straight counsellor / teacher than an outed teacher. I would hope that it is a phase that can be resolved and worked out such that he would be part of the heterosexual majority. I would not feel comfortable that he sees an outed homosexual teacher. Again, if my son has suicidal tendencies due to his homosexual tendencies, then I would wish that he sees Mr Fong. Therein lies my personal conflict on this issue. Would an outed homosexual persuade him more strongly not to let go of that probably temporary phase and cling on to it at whatever cost? Call Pride ? I do not wish to think that I am a homophobe, but I probably am….
Dear Young Parent,
Being gay really isn’t a choice. You can have the best of environments for your child to grow up straight but you could never stop him if he is born gay. I can see that your child will never be ‘straight’ with you and talk to you if you hold such thoughts. That is to say, he will forever be a ‘closet’ in your eyes and you probabaly will never know it.
If the simple expediency of being counselled by a heterosexual rather than a homosexual one would precipitate a vicissitude towards heterosexuality, away from the “phase”, given standard milieux that tend to encourage the suppression of homosexuality, don’t you think that all gays would have turned straight by now?
looks like people do make LOTS, and i mean LOTS of hasty sweeping generalised comments, and w/o much convincing reasoning.
please…please if you have any strong opinions please use some level of PROPER reasoning. it does not help make the discussion fruitful and encouraging. it takes quite some courage to come out.
but he still has to be careful of potential lashbacks from extremist parts of society.
good luck to him
SERIOUSLY.
CAN U ALL STOP IT
CAN U GUYS LEAVE HIM ALONE
HOW WOULD U FEEL IF U WERE HIM?
WITH SO MANY PEOPLE TALKING ALL THIS CRAP ABOUT HIM
PLEASE
LEAVE HIM ALONE
Well I am not accepting of your homophobic lifestyle. I think it is based on lies and hatred, that there is something inherently immoral about it. If we allow homophobia to carry on, we’ll have to give way on sexism, racism, and it will be a slippery slope down to moral oblivion.
We will probably treat you homophobes like human beings, but it is not right to voice out your aversion towards gays. You will just have to voice it out in private, or maybe talk it out amongst yourself, but it will be criminalised. Actually we won’t use the law but I guess it will have to stay criminalised because many people out there have an aversion to homophobia.
Just remember, we are not sending you to be exterminated. So we are not not treating you like human beings.
You say it is not alright for gay men to hold hands in public. But it is OK for a man and a woman to hold hands in public? Are they behaving like animals when they hold hands?
You can’t teach people not to be disgusted at homosexuals? But we can teach people not to be disgusted at people of other races even though their skin colour is, like, so dark. We can teach people not to be disgusted at women even though they, like, can’t pee standing up.
Animal sex is also immoral because it can’t lead to a reciprocal relationship. There is no emotional commitment involved. You can’t form a family with animal sex.
I already said that there are 2 purposes of sex: procreation and emotional commitment. Animal sex does neither. At least with homosexuality there is emotional commitment. With nudity and promiscuity, there is no emotional commitment, and if there is procreation involved it becomes a problem. That is why it is animal behaviour.
As for whether the animal you are having sex with enjoys it, I recommend you an experiment: pick a random girl from the street, have sex with her without asking her first, and see what happens after that.
You think that since it’s OK to lock up animals it’s OK to have sex with them? I thought you were the one who had a moral aversion to perverted behaviour, how could you say such things? So let’s say I bump into a person, and say sorry, and he say’s it’s alright. Should I proceed to beat the crap out of him and break his legs because he says “it’s all right”?
Some people say that the problem of homosexuality has not been solved. This is not true. The Greeks were perfectly accepting of homosexuality and they had cultural standards which until today are considered equal if not superior to ours. They taught that homosexuality between men is superior to relationships between men and women. (And if you think that only the ancient Greeks practiced it, it was also very widespread in ancient Japan.)
Some people may say that homosexuals actively encourage people to be homosexuals. If that is true then why is a heterosexual like me speaking up for homosexuals?
Some people think that we should leave Otto Fong alone. First of all some of us are not talking about him per se, since we are arguing about homosexuality. Second I think he brought up the subject in part to stimulate debate, so here we are.
Some people get sidetracked into arguing about whether homosexuals “can’t help it” or “choose” it. That is besides the point. The point is that there is nothing wrong with homosexuality and therefore there is no need to “convert” people back.
Young Parent,
Sorry to have to say this, but yeah, you sound pretty homophobic. Your comment shows that you think that there is something wrong with homosexuality in itself. If your son undergoes a teenage homosexual phase, then let him work through it himself. Let him figure out his own sexuality, let him realize for himself whether or not he’s straight or gay. If he was gay to start with, then no amount of counselling by a straight teacher will make him straight; all it will do is prove to him that he has to keep an aspect of himself hidden so that the rest of the world can be happy. Which, I think, is a very unhealthy situation for any teenager to be in. If he’s straight, then, well. You don’t have to worry, do you? It’ll pass in time, with or without encouragement from gay teachers.
Random Dude,
As a matter of fact, YES, one really can control his/her sexual urges and tendencies. You don’t go out and have sex with every attractive woman on the street, do you? So that’s that.
Trulysingapore,
You can dislike homosexuality if you want. That’s your opinion. You don’t get to force your opinions on others. That’s just wrong.
Your argument equating homosexuality to bestiality, pornography and guns–we call that a slippery slope fallacy, not to mention a really bad analogy. Bestiality is wrong because the animals are incapable of giving consent–which a gay adult is able to do. Pornography…I’m actually not sure why pornography is wrong. Let’s say that pornography is wrong because it promotes gender stereotypes and lewdness. Homosexuals don’t promote their lifestyle–they don’t try to make straight people gay, which is impossible anyway–they just want homosexuality to be accepted. And we don’t allow guns because guns hurt people. Two gay men having sex doesn’t hurt anybody else. So.
They can’t go out on a date to public places like heterosexual couples can. Why should they be forbidden to hold hands? Why should they not be allowed to kiss? In that sense, they don’t have the rights that straight people do.
And yes, we are trying to tell 4 million Singaporeans not to be disgusted with homosexuals. We’re going to keep trying until it works. See Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.
Homosexuality in public is *not* like public nudity or porn. How the hell did you come up with that? It’s not as if they’ll go out and have sex on the street.
The only reason black and white share toilets now is because people stood up and yelled about it, like we’re doing now. To say that homosexuality’s time isn’t now–is bullshit. There is no right time except now. And at any rate, opinions should not be made because of emotions, they should have a logical basis. Show me one solid argument w/re homosexuality being bad. Go on.
>>>Esg: Bestiality is wrong because the animals are incapable of giving consent–which a gay adult is able to do.<<<
Ponder: You reasoned that sex with animals is wrong because they are incapable of giving consent. You are implying that if you can somehow come up with a way of getting consent from an animal, then “hey let’s do it”.
I truly believe that we human beings have within us a sense of morality and a sense of right and wrong. Not just some logical and well reasoned lines of thoughts to justify just about anything.
Come on, do you even need logical arguments and reasoning with regard to the idea of having sex with animals ? Can’t you feel within you that it is wrong to have sex with an animal with or without it’s consent ?
you can don’t accept my homophobic lifestyle. it doesn’t in any way inhibit my lifestyle. your heart can be filled with lies, hatred and vehemence. it would only consume you. this is not about a decision that needs to be made today by everyone. it is something that has to be evolved to gain acceptance.
we are not voicing our aversion to you gays. we’re only saying behave yourself in a manner consistent with the culture of our society. no one is saying our culture is right or wrong. it happens to be the way we have always been for centuries. who do you think we are to change that culture overnight? the only person who can do that are dictators like Hitler.
in a way my voicing out is simply in response to your outburst. to put you in your proper place. to make you realise, there are 4 million other people, not just you and me.
you jolly well know that this discussion will not lead to criminalisation and probably won’t lead to conclusion. it stays criminalised because that is how our culture is.
just think about it. arabian ladies have to be fully covered up. arabian people cannot hold hands in public, cannot kiss in public. they cannot even go shopping together but must be separated as if they were going to toilet. are you going to barge in and say they’re phobic this and phobic that? it’s their culture and that’s that. it’s not for us to say anything. so similarly, we have a culture here that the majority subsribes to. respect that, if you have any self respect.
of course homosexuals can hold hands, but be prepared to be stared at.
race discrimination has improved but hasn’t as yet been eradicated despite having evolved through centuries. you want instant change to attitudes towards homosexuality? i never knew people were ever disgusted with women who can’t pee standing up. that’s something new to me.
paid homosex with bangras is immoral because there is no emotional commitment involved? you can form a family with your nightly visits to little india?
how do you know all homosexuality sex comes with emotional commitment? there are also homosexuals who pay banghras to bang their backside right? where is the emotional commitment then? so homosexuals who pay banghras for sex are exhibiting animal behaviour?
if its a guy doing it to a bitch or a girl, yes, you can have sex without consent because you can overpower the bitch or the girl. but what if it’s the other way round? can a lady have sex with a dog without its willing participation? kind of difficult isn’t it?
you don’t understand my point about chaining animals and animal sex. so i shall explain to you more simply. essentially, they’re both wrong. yet animal sex is readily recognised to be immoral but nobody thinks there’s anything wrong with chaining dogs. so you see, your argument that animal sex is immoral simply because it is animal abuse doesn’t stand. because chaining of dogs is also animal abusive but not considered immoral in our society.
in other words, morality isn’t something you can define like a set of rules. the law is a set of rules but morality is a set of do’s and dont’s that has evolved over centuries and come to be accepted by our society. so when you look at morality of homosexuality, you should look at how it is being perceived by society, not you or me.
the greeks essentially started the hellenistic civilisation. it is a great civilisation no doubt but it is debatable if it is greater than the other civilisations that graced this planet. in any case, we are not living in greece or any other society derived from it. our civilisation is fundamentally asian but not japanese.
we can speak up for what we feel is right. but i suppose there comes a point when there’s no point arguing until the cow comes home. no matter what, we’d be of the same opinion still.
Otto Fong comes into the picture when it comes to his role in shaping our future generation. do we allow him to inculcate his personal views or would we rather inculcate a view that is more acceptable to society? other than that, yes, it is essentially about homosexuality.
you think there is nothing wrong with homosexuality but most people think homosexuality is wrong. we can’t change you and you can’t change us.
esg,
you have gotten it wrong, it is you proponents of homsexuality who is forcing your opinions on the rest. my opinion is merely a response to your outbursts. you look at the sequence of events and you should know. so remember friend, you can’t point a finger at me and say i’m wrong when you are in fact wrong in the first place.
i don’t call it slippery slope, not to mention fallacy. if it’s a bad analogy, we would not be discussing it endlessly would we?
have you seen a girl perform sex with a dog? i believe it is the dog that is actually ‘going through the motions’ if you know what i mean. morality tells us that animals are incapable of giving consent. but a dog can actually do it with gusto.
so it is not because of consent or lack thereof like someone mentioned that is the reason why it is immoral. it is simply immoral by societal standards – our society that is.
why should lewdness be more wrong than homosexuality? the arabs are known to be homosexual (at least they sodomised lawrence of arabia) but their women can’t even show one inch of skin. so whether lewd is wrong or homosexuality is wrong depends on the society. in the context of our society today, they’re both wrong.
What more acceptance do homosexuals want? They can do whatever they want in bed right?
in switzerland, all males have guns at home. it is because the citizens are matured enough that they are entrusted with guns. in that sense, you can say that the swiss are even more ‘infront’ then you homosexuals. but just because you are ‘behind’ so you deny their right (duty) to hold guns? so you see, holding guns doesn’t necessarily hurt and can in fact be a national obligation. so at the end of the day, the basis for deciding what is right or wrong is still to look at the culture. we’re not ready for guns, neither are we ready for homosexuality.
why is it two gay men having ses doesn’t hurt anyone? because they’re doing it at home or in a hotel right?
of course you can hold hands and kiss, but don’t be surprised if people stare. that’s the price to pay for being at the ‘forefront’.
the only reason why ghandi and Martin luther king succeeded is because people supported them. without the support of the rest of the 4 million singaporeans, you can shout all you want and still fall on deaf ears.
homosexuality in public is like public nudity or porn. you cannot accept that but that’s how the general populace perceives it.
even until today, racism against blacks still exist. yes we have come a long way since black / white toilets but how long did that take? you want instant acceptance to homosexuality? yes, people stood up against black / white toilets but at the end of the day, the population had to agree in order for it to be accepted. yes, you are fighting now but you are not gaining acceptance. that is the difference.
i think the bullshit is yours lah, the only reason why you think the time is now is because you want it, as simple as that. the reason why i think the time is not now is not just because i don’t want it. more importantly, 4 million other people also don’t want it.
i’ve illustrated before and i shall illustrate again by asking the same question back. show me one logical reason why everyone should like coffee.
Thanks everyone for their comments. I talked to my homosexual friend – he says that if the teacher / counsellor is really good, it would not matter if he is homosexual or hetero. And I respect him and thank him for reminding me about that!! Thanks everyone.
To trulysingapore:
Your writing seems well thought of and civic.
You stated:
‘i did not say homosexuality is wrong. i am only saying that our society doesn’t accept homosexuality as yet. so it is wrong to force society to accept homosexuality just because a small minority says so. the homosexual isn’t denied of his rights, so there is no wrong done to them.’
Just imagine in the 40′s, a White was eduacating the Black that there was nothing wrong for being Black but the society had not accepted them to had equal right. They could voice their concern and even unhappiness once in a while but not too often caused it will disturb the peace of the society (or White, probably). And please not forced down their throat, they were not really for it. Anyway, they have food though could not sat with the White, still work though as workers and servants, still could take bus though not sat with the White.
Cant imagine what the Black are noe if they adopted this advice.
I understand that the society might not really to accept homosexuality and change dont come overnight. If we dont start pressing for it, it will never come. Since you ‘did not say homosexuality is wrong’, then sit still and wintess the movement and change. It might take years but the change had already started some times back.
hello Mitch,
while the proponents of homosexuality like to compare their ‘plight’ with those of the blacks, they need to seriously consider the appropriateness of that comparison.
you mentioned the blacks couldn’t eat with the whites. they could not sit with the whites on the bus.
are homosexuals prohibited from eating with non-homosexuals? are they prohibited from sitting with non-homosexuals on public buses?
none of the unfairness the blacks were dealt with are being subjected to by the homosexuals.
so while it was good that the blacks stood up for eating and seats, what exactly are the homosexuals standing up for? what exactly is it they don’t have that non-homosexuals have?
so while you keep pressing on, don’t press for things that you already have.
it is not that i’m sitting silently witnessing injustice. there is no injustice.
“so while it was good that the blacks stood up for eating and seats, what exactly are the homosexuals standing up for? what exactly is it they don’t have that non-homosexuals have?”
Urm… sexual desires for the opposite gender…?
Truly Singapore,
Just by reading the response from this forum, who do you suppose are the majority arguments ?
For or against ?
Hello Lenox, the answer to your question can be inferred from answers to the following questions:
How many people do you think engage in discussions on internet forums? What percentage of the population do they form?
Homosexual proponents are mostly young and ‘infront’. The majority of the older generation are neither ‘infront’ nor engage in online forums. So what percentage of them do you think are in favour of homosexuality? Even the generation in their 30s and 40s are generally conservative too.
Truly Singapore,
For your info, I am in my forties.
So, how do you perceive that forumers here made up of mostly gays here since most are supportive ?
Ponder,
Yes. If the animal consents, then yes. What the hell is wrong with interspecies sex? If aliens came to Earth one day, and they were sentient, and a relationship developed between a human and an alien, you going to say that they shouldn’t have sex too?
Actually? I don’t see that much wrong with having sex with an animal, assuming you’re not hurting it. But I don’t want to get into that argument, because for crying out loud homosexuality isn’t like bestiality, or paedophilia. So.
The problem with innate senses of morality is that people have different ideas of what’s wrong. White supremacists innately feel that blacks are evil, that Chinks are cunning, and that the Aryan race is superior and should wipe out all other races. Misogynists innately feel that women are inferior and that it’s just and correct for them to obey men. Are you going to say that *they’re* right, too, because that’s their sense of morality? Surely not. Logic is necessary, in the end, to determine standards of behaviour to which we *all* can conform. That’s how living in communities works.
So no, I don’t go by my gut feeling. Not when gut feelings result in alienation of other people and blind hatred and ostracism and genocide. Not when I know where “feeling within me that something is wrong” leads.
Trulysingapore,
Yeah? The difference between us is that my opinions don’t actually hurt anybody. This homophobia, this idea that homosexuality is wrong, on the other hand, has royally screwed up many homosexual people’s lives. They don’t deserve to be forced to repress themselves because they’re different. Primum non nocere–*first do no harm*. You can think it’s wrong all you like. That’s fine. You just don’t get to tell them to stop doing it, or to shut up about it.
There is no endless discussion. It’s just that people keep bringing up the same ridiculous fallacy again and again. But look, I’ll be fair–explain to me how homosexuality is like any of those three things. I’ll listen, and then see.
Yes, I have. Yes, the animals look like they’re enjoying it.
You *can’t* say that because something is immoral by societal standards, it shouldn’t be challenged. You think standards change by themselves? You think racial segregation ended magically, by itself? No, it changed because black people got up and started fighting for equal treatment, in a society that *wasn’t prepared for it*. You think that was wrong?
To start with, I don’t agree with the Muslim idea of how woman should dress, either. But it’s their religion, not mine, and any change has to come from one of them. Not from me, an outsider. This issue with homosexuality, on the other hand, concerns all of our society–a society I’m part of. This I can argue about.
And look, I would argue that lewdness in and of itself isn’t wrong. It’s inappropriate when shown to minors, let’s say, because it engenders wrong and possibly destructive concepts of sex within them, e.g. any man is entitled to sleep with any woman he wants (I’m not making that up, people think that way). It is, perhaps, inappropriate in public areas, because sex is usually (emphasis on “usually”) a private thing. But it’s not particularly harmful, and it’s not wrong.
NO. THEY CAN’T. Under Singapore law, sodomy is still illegal. LKY says it’ll change soon, but it hasn’t changed yet. And what do they want? They want the privileges that every other heterosexual person enjoys. They want acceptance, which means that regardless of what you think of their behaviour, you don’t go and hound them about it. They want to be able to marry each other, so they can have the legal privileges a spouse has. Homosexual couples now don’t have visitation rights in hospital, they can’t have a shared bank account, one spouse doesn’t get financial benefits when his/her partner dies, I COULD GO ON for a very long time. They want all the little things that you and I and other straight people all take for granted. You say they’re not prohibited from eating with heterosexuals. Not by law, sure, but by people’s opinions, they are. Many straight people wouldn’t sit with homosexuals. Some employers don’t employ homosexual people, regardless of their qualifications. That counts as discrimination–it’s not the exact same kind that black people faced, but it’s discrimination all the same.
They don’t hurt anyone because, yes, they do it in private, and also because whatever they do with their bodies is their own damn business.
Staring’s okay. Unfortunately, people often *do more than stare*. They heckle, they verbally abuse.
…So if no one else supports you, you don’t stand up for it? You don’t *try*? That makes me sick.
Likewise–so if they perceive it in a particular way, I shouldn’t try to change it? Sorry. I don’t work that way.
No, not instant acceptance. Bit by bit is okay. But none of its proponents are shutting up until we’ve made it all the way. Acceptance doesn’t come free, you have to fight for it. So we will.
No, I don’t *believe* in right or wrong times for things to change. Homosexuals don’t get the respect that heterosexuals do? Then that should change. Now. It’s not a matter of it being the right time or wrong time, it’s a matter of fixing this *problem* ASAP. Oh, and not all 4 million people are in agreement with you.
You don’t have to like coffee; you don’t have to like homosexuality. But they deserve the same privileges that straight people get, and they deserve the same respect. If you drink coffee, you don’t discriminate against tea-drinkers, do you?
You know, I’m not even sure where the argument is going. I don’t want to make you think that homosexuality is right. You can *keep* your current opinions on that. I just want homosexuals to be able to talk freely about who they are, as Mr Fong did, and for them to be able to act according to their nature without fear of repercussions. Basically, if I’m arguing about anything, it’s to get you to not oppose them. But you can think they’re wrong. That’s fine.
Saying that it’s wrong to get society to accept them, however, that I disagree with. Is that what you’re trying to say?
And for the record? I’m a straight 18-year-old female. Just so you know.
>>>Esg: Yes. If the animal consents, then yes. What the hell is wrong with interspecies sex? If aliens came to Earth one day, and they were sentient, and a relationship developed between a human and an alien, you going to say that they shouldn’t have sex too?
Actually? I don’t see that much wrong with having sex with an animal, assuming you’re not hurting it.
And for the record? I’m a straight 18-year-old female. Just so you know.<<<
To hear these from a young lady like you really saddens me ……. my only wish is that these thoughts are merely philosophical and conceptual, and not something which you would really incorporate into your life. Keep walking straight, else you may have to walk with a limp the rest of your life (didn’t mean to be a pun, but anyways).
Ponder,
What, so if I were older and male, you wouldn’t care? What kind of logic is that?
And yes, they’re philosophical. I don’t swing that way. But if someone else were to do it, hey, I have no objections.
Hi trulysingapore:
“while the proponents of homosexuality like to compare their ‘plight’ with those of the blacks, they need to seriously consider the appropriateness of that comparison.
none of the unfairness the blacks were dealt with are being subjected to by the homosexuals.”
Let say:
What if a black man and a white woman were in love then?
I see more commons in them and homosexual couple, hopefully you do.
They CAN’T let the world know they were/are in love.
They CAN’T be married.
They CAN ONLY do all things in private.
They AIN’T accepted socially.
Their togetherness DISGUSTED the shit out of the millions.
Of course, they still can be in love, but DONT ever be found out. Otherwise, they might be force to leave their jobs, throw out by their families, look down by their friends (for the Black then, he might even be killed).
“what exactly are the homosexuals standing up for? what exactly is it they don’t have that non-homosexuals have?”
What do you think they, Black & White couple, wanted?
Hello Lennox, how many in their forties support homosexuality?
are you representative of those in forties?
NTU survey shows that older folks are less inclined to accept homosexuality. i’m not saying 40+ is old. i’m only saying that 40+ is older than 20+.
so how do you expect anyone, you or me, to conclude society’s preference on the views of a small number who posted here?
ESG,
how exactly have my opinions hurt anyone? how has it screwed up the lives of homosexuals? you mean just because the public disapproves, the homosexuals don’t do it? they still do it regardless of what others say right? how are they being repressed?
‘first do no harm’ applies to homosexuals too. in a way, they’re causing unecessary disturbance to society. i have never once asked them to stop doing it have i? and i also didn’t ask them to shut up. i merely said that we can discuss but after a while when the stance is made clear and you still won’t budge, then probably you can’t take no for an answer instead.
there is endless discussion because our legitimate concerns are deemed fallacies by you yet you insist that your concerns aren’t fallacies.
homosexuality is the same as animal sex, guns, porno and nudism in the sense that it is against public sentiments. as simple as that.
yes you can challenge the moral standards of society. but at the end of the day, having challenged and firmly rebuffed, are you going to keep challenging and challenging? you’re wasting everyone’s time right? because in the natural course of things, what you want will naturally come given time because society evolves. the only way you get society to change instantaneously is through a dictator or through war. is that what you want?
don’t you realise there were actual injustices the blacks were subjected which is why they were being supported by the people? what injustices are the homosexuals being subjected to? what exactly is it that they don’t have that the rest have? it is not wrong to fight for injustices. problem is there is no injustice.
suppose you were born in arabia and you are required to be wrapped up all the time? what are you going to do about it? what can you do about it?
so while you think homosexuality concerns our society, nudity also concerns our society but isn’t an issue simply no one has yet come out to strongly demand for nudism.
why is lewdness wrong? the french sunbathes in the nude in front of children and don’t consider it wrong. why should lewdness be wrong yet homosexuality is right?
exactly, if sex is a private thing, then homo or heterosexuality are both private things and should be kept private.
are you saying that homosexuals are not sodomising one another because the law says no? you must be kidding me. name me one homosexual who doesn’t practise it because the law says no.
you are confusing two things, homosexuality and marriage. homosexuality is an individual’s sexual tendencies whereas marriage is a social institution built upon social norms. all the things you mentioned like shared bank account and visitation rights are associated with marriage which in the context of our society is between one man and one woman. if you think that restricting to this format is wrong and we should also have marriage between a man and another man or a woman and another woman, then are you prepared to accept that we can have even wider combinations like one man with four women or one woman with four men or four men with four women or many men with many women? even LKY once mooted that we should have polygamy and some joker actually wrote to the press to suggest men should be allowed to marry their maid while keeping their wife.
so who is right and who is wrong? answer is as i’ve said so many times, there is no right or wrong. right or wrong is a function of time and in our time the only marriage institution that is accepted is between man and woman. it may evolve still but as of now, it is still man and woman.
you say that people don’t sit with heterosexuals but how do i believe you when i don’t see it happening or reported anywhere? not even in onlinecitizen.
are you required to declare you are a homosexual during employement interview? if not, what’s the fuss with employers not employing homosexuals? so i still don’t see discrimination like you described them.
but they are being accepted and no one hounds them. have you ever heard any case of homosexuals being hounded here? i have not.
yes they do it at home and it is their damn own business. in that case why publicise or advocate to the rest of the world?
come on, you’re telling me people heckle and verbally abuse. i think that only happens in the western societies. we are a mild mannered lot … except for road rages perhaps.
yes you can stand up but do you insist your way even though it affects others and they have clearly said no? does it not make you sick when one person forces ten others to abide by her wishes? that’s barbarism isn’t it?
why do you insist on changing core values of others? it is core and dear to them. are you not committing what you claim that non-homosexuals are committing, denying their rights?
but from the amount of fierce shouting we are getting, it doesn’t seem like bit by bit is it? i suppose your mouth is yours and no one can or should shut you up. but you have asked, and we have said no, you ask again, we say no again, you ask again and we say no again … how long you want to keep this up? 10 years ago, we were less accepting, 10 years later there are more people like you who are accepting. we are evolving. it is a matter or time. why fight against the forces of our time? why not ride along with the passage of time?
just because you say there is no right or wrong time doesn’t mean the society thinks likewise. just because you say we should change now doesn’t mean 4 million people say likewise. ok, maybe not 4 million people but based on findings, probably 3 million at least?
in what ways are homosexuals deprived of the same privileges or respect as straight people? i don’t discriminate against tea drinkers, neither do it discriminate against homosexuals. homosexuality, like heterosexuality, is a private thing and ought to be practised at home.
yes, Mr Fong can talk freely about his sexual orientation but he is doing more than that. because the internet is a public domain, it becomes a public issue. you did say that it is their own private thing didn’t you?
and what fear does Mr Fong or any homosexual have? nothing untoward has happened to them right?
you say that i say that “it is wrong to get society to accept homosexuals”. but i never said that. i have always been saying that our society accepts homosexuals because there is no discrimation against them. they are not subjected to any of the injustices suffered by the blacks.
it’s a pleasure discussing with you, but what’s with telling me that you’re an 18 year old lady?
Hi,
Pls note that I have always been referring to gay people as “them”. The reason is simple: I am not one of them.
First of all you claim that your attitude does not hurt the feelings of homosexuals. So I do an experiment, I turn it around, and say that I espouse those exact same attitudes towards you.
Then you get annoyed and irritated. But then again you can turn around and say that you are not really discriminating against them. I don’t understand. So are you or are you not discriminating against them?
But for the record, yes, I actually think you are a sinner. I won’t talk about why gay people get hurt by these attitudes since others have already done it for me.
If you do claim that it’s alright for homosexuals to be stared at when they hold hands. Would you stare at a heterosexual couple holding hands the same way you’d stare at a homosexual couple? I don’t think so.
You say that homosexuality is wrong because some homosexuals are promiscuous. But some heterosexuals are also promiscuous. Does that mean that sex between men and women are wrong? Bottom line is, promiscuity and sexual orientation are 2 different matters.
Lewdness is also wrong, but lewdness and sexual orientation are also 2 separate matters. Problem is, you would define homosexual behaviour as lewd in itself. I’m sure that when you first found out that your parents had sex in order to give birth to you, it was really disturbing, but you did get used to it. I’m sure when you found out that half of the population have different types of genitals from you it was really disturbing but you got used to it. My point is that it’s simply a matter of getting used to it.
Bestiality is wrong because bestiality is always rape, and rape is always wrong.
The other thing is, since I made this point earlier and you didn’t address it, is this: do you think that something is right based on your own conviction, or do you think that something is right or wrong based on what “society” thinks? Because you’ve given me very contradictory answers on this issue.
My stand is that it’s not what I think, but rather you need to give a reason why it’s wrong. I just don’t accept the reasons given that homosexuality is wrong because I haven’t come across an argument I can poke holes into.
And it could be that an 18 year old might be idealistic about these things but I was 18 more than 10 years ago, I didn’t see anything wrong with homosexuality at that point, and I haven’t changed my standpoint since.
Many of the young kids that were taught by him will make a stand on this issue now, and after that I don’t think they will change their minds easily.
It seems that most of the discussions about homosexuality is among “outsiders”. Even the most ardent supporters of homosexuality eventually pop up and say that “I support gays, nothing wrong with it, but I am straight”. This is turning out to be a philosophical debate.
Siteocho,
>>>Pls note that I have always been referring to gay people as “them”. The reason is simple: I am not one of them.<<<
If one wants to be pedantic, your statement can be construed as discriminatory towards gays. Of course I know you don’t mean it, but this is what I mean by the discussion getting “philosophical”.
hello mitch,
i do not agree. i often see female pairs that are obivously together with one of them dressed up like a man. so if female pairs today have no qualms showing they are in love, i don’t see why male pairs have any inhibitions. they probably can’t be bothered since falling in live is a private thing isn’t it?
yes they can’t be married but they can cohabit and are not prevented from homosexuality.
what exactly is it that they want to do in public that they are prevented from doing?
they may not be accepted socially but nothing untoward happens to them.
i’m not so sure if they’re disgusted the shit, my opinion is that people can’t be bothered or they are curious.
you say the black may be killed if people now they’re in love with whites. do you actually see homosexuals being threatened and getting killed here? are you sure you’re not making all these up?
what is it that the black and white couple have that the homosexual couple today does not have? apart from marriage and associated stuff that is?
you have said so right from the beginning you are not gay. you do not have to keep repeating it.
i get annoyed and irritated not because you tell me your feeling about homosexuals. i get irritated and annoyed because you keep going through the same points over and over again, non-stop. worse still, i have to repeat the same story not just to you but to a few others too. why can’t you fellows just read one another’s postings and refrain from repetition?
i say once more i am not discriminating against them and they are not being discriminated either.
it doesn’t matter what you think of me for you are not god who decides who sins and who does not.
i still do not find any concrete evidence of how what i say leads to hurt. you say something i don’t agree. i reply in kind and you say i am hurting you. i hurt you just because i told you flatly i don’t agree with what you’re saying?
come on, you said so yourself people who disapprove of homosexuals are ‘backward’ while people like you are ‘infront’. you see someone in outrageous fashion on the street you’d take a second look right? that’s what you get for being ‘infront’ and for being different, right? people enjoy being ‘infront’ don’t they? otherwise they wouldn’t do it, would they?
i never said “homosexuality is wrong because some homosexuals are promiscuous”. kindly quote where i’ve used those words.
if you can accept homosexuality but you cannot accept promiscuity, then aren’t you being selective about what you choose to accept and what you choose not to? so if you are choosing and i’m also choosing, who is to say your choice is right and my choice is wrong? so you see, at the end of the day, we all have different opinions so we need a universal barometer. that standard would be that of society’s.
i don’t define homosexuality as lewd. i’m only saying, in the context of what is or is not acceptable to society, both lewdness and homosexuality are frowned upon so when an individual decides one is good but not the other, then who is he to prevent another from saying both are good or both are wrong?
you think bestiality is wrong yet homosexuality is right. yet i see them equally wrong. the 18 year old girl seems to suggest they are both acceptable. at least she’s being consistent in her logic whereas you are arbitrary.
come on, who says i did not address your concerns. how many thousand times you want to make me repeat myself? i have my convictions and i will say them. but up to a point i would say, i cannot change what society thinks, i should respect society’s choice, i still have a right to my own opinion and i will continue to live my life based on my principles. but i will not insist that society conforms to my whims and fancies. who am i? god?
please use a little common sense to digest what i just said. spend some time please. it is not contradictory.
i have said so many times. you still insist that i give a reason for my distaste for coffee?
if you still can’t accept it, so be it. i shan’t explain further as i think i’ve entertained you enough.
you sound like you were 10 years ago.
yes they will make a stand. but do you think if they had been taught by a different teacher they would not have made a different stance?
it has been a long conversation with you. you appear incapable of accepting an argument. when you don’t agree with a statement but have no counter arguments to it, you simply say you cannot accept it. if you adopt that position, there’s nothing more that i can say.
and so my argument ends here.
thank you
Truly Singapore,
I have read your posts and I agree that they are inconsistent and you still owe everybody a reason.
For example, you said “i have said so many times. you still insist that i give a reason for my distaste for coffee?”
You need not give a reason for your distaste for coffee but at least you should support that drinking coffee not be encoded as a criminal offense in the book just like 377a. Yes. Then of course you are straight and can continue to have a distaste for homosexual sex. However, do note that some curious straights like to try homosexual sex.
Here’s another blog reply i found…
http://p_eppermint.livejournal.com
If you don’t see how homosexuals get hurt by your attitudes towards them (but then again you know you get hurt by my attitude towards you – I don’t understand how you think). I explain why there are big holes in your logic and you don’t get it.
I mean those young people who made up their minds shouldn’t make up their minds because they were being influenced by homosexuals? But you just said that it’s up to how society thinks. It seems like it’s important that we listen to how society thinks so long as society thinks the same way that you do, so long as they don’t get influenced by the “wrong” people.
And homosexuals are not that way because they are “in front”. It is not fashion. They are like that because they are born that way. Like I enjoy putting my dick in the same hole where the baby comes out because I was born that way. And there’s nothing modern about homosexuality, if our morals are evolved over centuries why shouldn’t we be like the Greeks 2000 years ago who didn’t see anything wrong with that? It is traditional.
It’s not OK for people with your kind of attitude to go wandering around because you are a menace to society. That’s why I am patient with you but you abuse my kindness!
And once more it’s not about what I think. I always back up what I think with reasons. It is not arbitrary, my whim and fancy. People get hurt when they’re discriminated against.
“i never said “homosexuality is wrong because some homosexuals are promiscuous”. kindly quote where i’ve used those words.”
- “how do you know all homosexuality sex comes with emotional commitment? there are also homosexuals who pay banghras to bang their backside right? where is the emotional commitment then? so homosexuals who pay banghras for sex are exhibiting animal behaviour?”
So do you think I am gay or not? Because earlier on you said “you gays” to me so it’s very confusing whether you get it or not.
I never said that you are hurting me by the way. I don’t lie in bed getting angry over murderers, rapists and homophobes. I just think that they should get locked up, that’s all.
Hi Mr Fong,
you are a brave guy, an excellent teacher and a superb artist. I will always stand up for you!!
Good To Know everyone comes out being totally or Much more of their sexual identities.for this is much healthier and Not allowing yourself to mental disruption.for this is true,and we all will be of a kinder better people towards each other in our societies everywhere we go.Thats where HE made us,allow us to be different to be respected,Treated Equally for we all contribute donate equally to our people or neighbours next to us From our every each Diversed talents and strengths;we learn from each other to be a better ONE People,Much better If around the globe whereever we go.
doesnt everyone agrees?
Dearest Otto,
We have had the pleasure of your friendship since China 1996, and you have always proved to be a very professional and careing person. Your dedication to humanity and the world around you is paramount to herds of humanity that don’t even open thier eyes to that which surrounds them. Your artistry, your belief in the human soul, your strength in self are all a testimony to the rare and divine individual that you are. Every student with half a whit in their brain could benefit from your moral tensel alone. We salute you and wish your road to smooth out from the social ruts that have thus prevailed. May you live long and have many successes that fulfill your soul.
Yo Otto,
I am straight, what you have done already made you the best teacher!!!! better than alot of straight!!!
Homosexuality is a genetic abberation, partially genetic, partially environmental, in different intensity with different individuals. Some ppl may be weakly gay, some strongly gay.
We could define it as a mental disorder, as it was indeed in the past before gay interest groups got it changed.
However, we want gays to lead happy and satisfying lives, and since they can’t be cured, then we should tolerate them, even though the vast majority find their behaviour disgusting. That’s just biological, a automatic reaction by most straight ppl, and gays should not get upset abt it since they use the same excuse to justify their gayness.
I’ve always felt gays should be allowed to marry but we should not force churches and temples to accept their marriages under threat of legal and societal punishment as many militant gays desire so strongly. Gays should not turn from the oppressed into the oppressor, as many militant and extreme gays are doing so now.
Also militant gays should not try to promote their idealogy marxist-style into schools, societal organisations and political organisations and then whine and complain when ppl criticise and resist them.
Gays are abnormal, but we should tolerate them and help them live happy lives as long as they do not try to oppress the rest of society.
Cheers
A question, can potentially i i implore you to get in touch with yourself on facebook?
Hello! This post couldn’t be written any better! Reading through this post reminds me of my good old room mate! He always kept talking about this. I will forward this page to him. Fairly certain he will have a good read. Thank you for sharing!
Have you ever thought about creating an ebook or guest authoring on other websites? I have a blog based upon on the same topics you discuss and would love to have you share some stories/information. I know my viewers would value your work. If you are even remotely interested, feel free to send me an email.
Why are we looking at gays so differently? What’s so wrong about them? Is it that once you’re a gay you are not human anymore? NO! I don’t think so. Does gender matter so much? What’s the most important is that at least they found they’re happiness isn’t it? So stop treating them like they’re abnormal cause they’re not.