Alliance is for people with common and similar interest and not for the oath of blind faith as in triads. It is neither for the worship of leader and leadership, respects can be accorded privately and collectively when all or majority of the people feel it at the same time individually.

Imagine there comes a day a PAP Member of Parliament tells the Government that some policies are not sound and or that some past policies were lousy in a parliamentary debate for all to see, that will be very comforting! Is it believeable that a group of people feel and share the same ideas, opinions and wishes with no differences amongst them over a long period of time?

I opine that one reason why a purely oppositional political party, individual and establishment is not able to win the hearts of others is simply because of a ‘one way’ thinking.

It is TOC’s choice if they wish to have PAP members on the TOC team. But to be fair it should be made known to their forumners. Whether the PAP members contribute responsibly and add credibility to TOC is insubstantial. This goes for Opposition members as well.

When I visit a forum I expect it to try to be a neutral body. It is difficult for a commoner such as myself to have faith that the forum is trying to do that if political members are admitted into the editorial body. It is insubstantial if TOC claims that and i quote you “TOC, has no interest in cooperating with the establishment or representing the mainstream views espoused by traditional media”, that faith is lost amongst some of us. It is similar to having friends that are all criminals, few will have faith that I am not one myself. The fact I am not one is insubstantial as faith is lost amongst the public. This is a fact in life be it right or wrong. The question is why does TOC choose to go against the public faith?

To quote you on “The PAP government (may the PAP progress!) does not need TOC to advance its agenda or promote its policies. They already have the mainstream media as well as various discussion groups and committees to do that for them.” The PAP government does not need TOC but i believe it stands to gain if TOC was there to advance its agenda. That is reason enuf for the common public’s faith in TOC as a neutral body to waiver. And as fer false accusations and questions…. that is a bi-product. If TOC is distressed about the accusations then don’t do it? Same goes for a celebrity…. if you can’t take the stress of the papparazi… don’t be a celebrity

There is nothing wrong with having PAP members on the TOC team. Their mature and responsible views add credibility to TOC and allow it to be differentiated from the plethora of anti-establishment blogs that criticize the government most of the time.

You have no right to question who TOC picks on its editorial board, as you are merely an outsider who, unlike TOC, have no interest in cooperating with the establishment or representing the mainstream views espoused by traditional media. You clearly do not know which side of your bread is buttered, unlike TOC.

For you to insinuate that is TOC trying to open itself to surreptitious control by the PAP is an insult to TOC as they are perfectly capable of supporting the PAP without anyone telling them to do so.

The PAP government (may the PAP progress!) does not need TOC to advance its agenda or promote its policies. They already have the mainstream media as well as various discussion groups and committees to do that for them. On the other hand, TOC has engendered lively debate about current issues and government policies, and in so doing, created even greater awareness, even if sometimes their arguments and line of reasoning leave much to be desired. Sadly, even TOC sometimes falls into the trap of being anti-establishment for its own sake, as if merely to impress the masses. Readers should therefore read TOC not only with an open mind, but with a critical mind as well.

What is needed is for people like you to debate with TOC constructively and challenge them on the facts when they get their line of thought wrong, when they fail to see the forest for the trees, and when they pander to the masses for the sake of Realpolitik.

Goh Bock Seng

What if Jasper and WayangKIng attack on TOC is planned to give TOC credibility as a balanced non-partisan forum whereas it is actually a pro-PAP Forum?

An ancient Chinese Strategy of torturing one of its own, a high-ranking officer, (acting as an insurgent) to give credibility to his message as a “traitor”, therefore causing his enemy to fall into a well-planned trap?

Look like we are getting paranoid seeing spook in every nooks and corners.

The Wayang King, so self-named as wayangkingsg at the Sammyboy.com’s Alfresco Coffee Shop (SBF), is at the centre of storm involving TOC. For those who have dealt with him before, he comes across as a member of the PAP’s Counter-Insurgents Squad, operating out of the National Health Group.

HIS SOLE PURPOSE IS TO ATTACK AND DISCREDIT THE WORKERS’ PARTY AND TOC. He has set up a blog specifically to do this.

He has assumed a variety of online anonymous identities at SBF, such as :

thinknothing, thinkpeople, Mihailov75, mehailov75, samster005, samstor005, razari, kevansg, Firdaus77, jacy_, jacys_, PM0nkeyWP, aIz2by, 0nePerson, Yishun81, exist17, PM0NKEY10, Delphilian, delphiloon, thinkdelphi, Ahkong_, andrewshit, zhengxiTOC, norfirdaus, Sarrkozy, Mohd_Hakim, titusbamble, geraldTOC, sarak_home, NoorFirdaus, Ahmed_Yusof, mohdimran, samster55, spartacus436, porkchop59, bullshitGMS, MSVista, nvista, Mohdfarhan, daqigui, mohdjunid, mohdjames, MemberName05, porkchop611, aboutdelphi, delphifcuk, AndrewofWP, Andrew69sg, sockmonkeysg, wayanguru, checkentry, wayangclub, GH2788why, monkeylohhp, deankohh, createnew, callcab111, Goldenparrot, createpoll, madcow2788, COE75, PussyJUDGE, PDonkey10, namqiong5984, remychooo, AndrewLoh985, wayangkingsg, wayangclubsg, MaryKwan, etc., most of them have been banned.

For the regular forummers of SBF, they would remember that this Wayang King has been notorious in impersonating other opposition parties’ figures, such as Perry Tong, Low Thia Khiang, and Sebastian Teo at SBF, causing a stir in the local newspapers in Singapore.

When he was caught red-handed for impersonating Perry Tong, he cunningly assumed another identity in the name of Bernard Soh (using a login name hongrui1982) to post a letter of apology.

With a history like this, it is not difficult to digest the recent events and who is behind them.

So the netizens have been taken a free ride by the Wayang King without knowing that they have been watching a wayang show conducted by wayangparty (wayangparty.wordpress.com).

It becomes clear that why an anonymous Jasper would bother to set up a blog (jasperwee.wordpress.com) for the sole purpose of attacking TOC if he is not a member of the PAP’s Internet Counter-Insurgents Squad.

Once we know that Jasper and wayangparty are the same person belonging to the PAP’s Internet Counter-Insurgents Squad, his malicious act of disinformation and attacks on TOC and Workers’ Party can be easily seen!

What the Wayang King did not expect is that his whole self-conducted wayang show has back-fired on the PAP’s Internet Counter-Insurgents Squad very badly and discredited himself completely!

You have your reality. We have ours. All I know is this you cannot stop people from forming their opinions positively or negatively abt TOC. Everyone has a right to form their opinion and if they choose to view it as small, medium or big that is their choice, you say ignore them, that doesnt mean you are more justified, it simply means you choose to ignore them and that adds and subtracts nothing, it just means you choose to ignore them. That is all. In life if only all solutions are so simple that they can simply be ignored only to resolve themselves magically. If only

It’s a simple case of an issue blown out of proportion.

1. ‘Life is waaaaaay too short’ to actually engage in spurious and baseless mud-slinging matches with anonymous individuals. TIP: Ignore and move on.

2. If one does deign to dignify such allegations with a response, be careful of the ‘the lady doth protest too much’ response. It is the natural reaction of an observer.

3. ‘Don’t fail to see the forest for the trees’. Nobody seemed to have noticed that somebody suggested that this is why S’pore is not yet ready for full democracy. Don’t get so caught up in meaningless debate about petty name-calling that you miss the REALLY important things.

4. A newspaper (electronic or otherwise) of standing should ALWAYS support freedom of speech, not just when the speech is measured and seemingly just: ‘I might not agree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it’ is a always good starting point…

5. …but you don’t have to publish it! Dealing with rantings of the insane and the juvenile is a small price to pay for the immeasurable wealth of wisdom gained from a frank and open discussion about things which matter to people. Unfortunately, newspapers bear a dispraportionate level of responsibility in this regard.

6. Truth is a fiction designed to confuse you. The human condition is trying to undestand the universe, logic is a tool to that end. The universe does not have to be reasonable, to insist on absolute truth of any statement does not advance an argument and indeed suggests a poor grasp of the very principles of insightful reasoning. A satisfactory level of mutual understanding should be the goal.

As I say: take it, leave it, make paper aeroplanes with it…

Disclaimer – I don’t really care who is right or wrong in this instance.

The NewSintercom (http://www.newsintercom.org/index.php?itemid=571) said:

“Whatever we might think about the PAP, they are politically cunning at least. …….. The PAP in its Internet offensive have probably dropped its P65 blog as its Internet flagship and moved to something else that the public wants to read – a moderate blog.”

It is said that some people are blinded from these big holes in plain sight because of their deep seated anger with PAP. They failed to think rationally to see these holes and misguided by people with flawed reasoning to spin an unjust attack against a group of caring, concerning young people who serve TOC and the general public with their objective and informative articles.

After skimming through it, the only difference to me is that they have changed the word “compulsory” to “automatic” which still means the same to me as long as there is no avenue for opting out. Or is there?

No matter how much they change the details, it’s the same if there is no opting out.

Can opt in (for some), no opting out = compulsory.

Am I right?

Some useless internet expert is probably going to storm into blogosphere ridding a white horse shouting out registration, registration and registration.

As it is I am glad their designs have been thawrted once again, but one thing is clear, if it happens, all of us will probably say, “Ahhhhhhhhh standard lah.”

I am just waiting for that to happen now. As you can all see since their plans have been exposed for all to see by the bp people, the guns in wayangparty club have strangely fallen silent, you want to know why? These truths have homed in like tomahawk guided missiles and gone ka-booooom!

Their plans have been scuttled. I see it very clearly now, it is very clear.

The Wayang King, so self-named as wayangkingsg at the Sammyboy.com’s Alfresco Coffee Shop (SBF), is at the centre of storm involving TOC. For those who have dealt with him before, he comes across as a member of the PAP’s Counter-Insurgents Squad, operating out of the National Health Group.

He has assumed a variety of online anonymous identities at SBF, such as thinknothing, thinkpeople, Mihailov75, mehailov75, samster005, samstor005, razari, kevansg, Firdaus77, jacy_, jacys_, PM0nkeyWP, aIz2by, 0nePerson, Yishun81, exist17, PM0NKEY10, Delphilian, delphiloon, thinkdelphi, Ahkong_, andrewshit, zhengxiTOC, norfirdaus, Sarrkozy, Mohd_Hakim, titusbamble, geraldTOC, sarak_home, NoorFirdaus, Ahmed_Yusof, mohdimran, samster55, spartacus436, porkchop59, bullshitGMS, MSVista, nvista, Mohdfarhan, daqigui, mohdjunid, mohdjames, MemberName05, porkchop611, aboutdelphi, delphifcuk, AndrewofWP, Andrew69sg, sockmonkeysg, wayanguru, checkentry, wayangclub, GH2788why, monkeylohhp, deankohh, createnew, callcab111, Goldenparrot, createpoll, madcow2788, COE75, PussyJUDGE, PDonkey10, namqiong5984, remychooo, AndrewLoh985, wayangkingsg, wayangclubsg, MaryKwan, etc., most of them have been banned.

For the regular forummers of SBF, they would remember that this Wayang King has been notorious in impersonating other opposition parties’ figures, such as Perry Tong, Low Thia Khiang, and Sebastian Teo at SBF, causing a stir in the local newspapers in Singapore. When he was caught red-handed for impersonating Perry Tong, he cunningly assumed another identity in the name of Bernard Soh (using a login name hongrui1982) to post a letter of apology.

With a history like this, it is not difficult to digest the recent events and who is behind them.

From all the evidences available, it is without a shadow of doubt that this Wayang King signed off as Jasper to post the first message on 05/02/2008 at singabloodypore (singabloodypore.rsfblog.org):

He was caught subsequently by soci to impersonate Andrew Loh to post a message on 06/02/2008 challenging Jasper at singabloodypore.rsfblog.org:

So the netizens have been taken a free ride by the Wayang King without knowing that they have been watching a wayang show conducted by wayangparty (wayangparty.wordpress.com).

With this in mind, there is a possibility that the second Jasper is also a clone of wayangparty used to further discredit TOC by posting a message on 07/02/2008 at singabloodypore.

It becomes clear that why an anonymous Jasper would bother to set up a blog (jasperwee.wordpress.com) for the sole purpose of attacking TOC if he is not a member of the PAP’s Internet Counter-Insurgents Squad.

Once we know that Jasper and wayangparty are the same person belonging to the PAP’s Internet Counter-Insurgents Squad, his malicious act of disinformation and attacks on TOC and Workers’ Party can be easily seen!

What the Wayang King did not expect is that his whole self-conducted wayang show has back-fired on the PAP’s Internet Counter-Insurgents Squad very badly and discredited himself completely!

Before using saintmoron, I was posting as scb; as I concurred almost fully with most of his posts, we saw very much eyes to eyes and complimented each other. However, for some times a few of the regular TOC Posters were not posting at TOC. From some of their postings, I could sensed that some were disappointed with edits and reminders by TOC.

Though I had not been censored in my postings, I was on a couple of occassions quite disappointed that TOC did not correct one or two glaring mistakes of facts that I made. On second thought, I felt it was not their duties; I was hoping that TOC would be helpful but, it was not. I apologised and did the corrections on its’ site myself. I did not stopped reading and posting here despite the afore-mentioned, for I felt and still feel that it is worthy for most, if not all, their contents. Hopefully Robert Teh may share my feeling.

As for the Internet, I am very inclined to feel that it should be for everyone no matter their affiliations. We as readers and active posters have much to learn and gain from the different perspectives. I read and post at the Post 65 MPs Blogs too despite the fact that I have hardly, maybe never supported PAP at all. I am very much put off by their propagandas since I was a teen. However, there were times when I appreciated certain efforts that the Members and their supporters did. Allow me just to say that their cohesiveness thus far is something which the Oppositions and for that matter, even the citizenry are not able to emulate.

Some of us strongly feel that everyone has rights to say their pieces and though we wish that everybody upholds integrity and propriety when speaking up, that nevertheless is too idealistic; what with Trojan Horses and moles lurking around. As I had said before, justice altimately will prevail and those playing pranks are likely to be exposed as time goes by. So here again I say let’s do our parts as righteously as we ought to do.

Thank you for your most interesting take on the matter. I wish to take clarify a few points, you mentioned;

“Our position with TOC is the same with any producer in blogosphere; we respect them for what they are; does it matter to us whether they may be allied to PAP or the army of the 10 monkeys, we couldn’t give a flying fuck – we have an open policy.”

I don’t believe you truly appreciate the issues at hand. The issue IMO is whether there is a conflict of interest which TOC did not adequately address by allowing with full knowledge aforethought or by default to allow Remy to continue writing. We can say many things about the slant of Remy’s articles, they are anti-establishment etc and they may not even be supportive of the MIV or MSM view, but if I may use your analogy where you mentioned counter insurgency is a “snakey” game, then deliberately coming across as anti-establishment is also an effective strategy to infiltrate blogosphere. Surely even you cannot deny that.

One can certainly lamblast Jasper’s allegations no end, but even you cannot deny there is merit to his observations as it points to clear evidence of malingering and contrary to your assertion it is IMO grounds to continue to be suspicious of TOC. I for one cannot understand how such an intelligent man would even suggest for one moment, there should be an open policy in the net to even allow political parties to dominate it in the way that you have suggested – have you ever considered, we may not even be in a position to compete against anything as organized as the government or a party political system – that I believe is why Jasper’s allegations has stirred up such a hornets nest, as it provokes exactly these very sentiments which you do not seem to even recognize. Instead of advocating a “open policy” you would go further to suggest that blogosphere should be declared a neutral non-political zone and that I believe would be a far more sensible proposition. That of course also means Jaspers allegations concerning TOC is worthy and should not be dismissed as simply a vindictive attack without merit.

I hope that you will answer my question instead of skirting it as usual :). Many thanks.

This whole issue of ‘Trojan Horse’ and mole is nothing new and it will recur repeatly, so it is only to be expected from time to time. What I personally feel is that vehement reactions to it give the perpetrator(s) more exposures which enhance their visibilities and or even attractions. It would be wise to just leave them aside and take no notice of them and to do sincerely what one has been doing before. Lamentably, it now becomes complex and irritating, yet I believe justice will prevail.