Campaign the Singapore Government to stop producing cluster bombs
Friday, 23 May 2008, 12:30 am | 80 views
The following was sent to TOC by Seelan Palay
The Singapore government, through its government-linked company, Singapore Technologies Kinetics Ltd (ST Kinetics), manufactures, stockpiles and publicly advertises two types of cluster ammunitions for sale (Cluster Munition Coalition 2008) .
They are the ‘155mm DPICM artillery projectiles (containing 63 or 49 grenades) equipped with electro- mechanical self-destruct fuzes with an advertised dud rate of 3 percent’ and ‘a 120mm mortar bomb which delivers 25 DPICM grenades’ (Singapore Technologies Engineering n.d., cited in Cluster Munition Coalition, 2008 ).
As world governmental representatives converged in Dublin on the 19th May to seek an agreement on banning cluster bombs, the absence of major producers such as United States, China and Russia have seriously undermined these efforts (Gergely 2008) . The U.N. Development Programme claimed that ‘cluster munitions have caused more than 13,000 confirmed injuries and deaths around the world, the vast majority of them in Laos, Vietnam and Afghanistan‘ (Gergely 2008).
In a brief online scan of Singapore’s two major newspapers, TODAY and Straits Times, dating 16 to 20 May, both well-read newspapers in the country have remained silent over this issue. The online blogosophere has also been muted on Singapore’s role in possessing such bombs.
Singapore has also not attended the international conferences held in Oslo, Lima, Vienna, and Wellington which seek to prohibit the use of cluster bombs. As of April 2008, Singapore remains not having subscribed to the Wellington Declaration which affirms the countries’ “objective of concluding the negotiation of such an instrument prohibiting cluster munitions that cause unacceptable harm to civilians’. The declaration is a prerequisite to full participation in the conference in Dublin (Cluster Coalition Munition, 2008).
Cluster munitions can cause excessive harm to civilians even when the conflict has been over for it ‘can remain a threat for decades’. It is primarily a weapon which contains ‘multiple explosive submunitions’ which are ‘dropped from aircrafts or fired from the ground and designed to break open in mid-air, releasing the submunitions and saturating an area that can be the size of several football fields. Anybody within that area, be they military or civilian, is very likely to be killed or seriously injured’.
Those that are not exploded, and most of them don’t, ‘are left on the ground and, like landmines, remain a fatal threat’. As such, people are prevented from using ‘their land and to access schools and hospitals’. Cluster munitions have been used since the Second World War and most recently in Lebanon in 2006 (Cluster Munition Coalition Ireland 2008). Given that the world-wide trend is towards banning cluster bombs; and that the Singapore government has remained steadfastly committed to manufacturing and selling such munitions, Singaporeans should be duly concerned about these weapons being used against innocent civilians.
What then, can Singaporeans do, given that the media has not reported on this issue?
They can:
1. Act as citizen journalists by highlighting this issue in their website or blog.
2. Sign and forward the petition which is to campaign on the ban at Dublin .
3. Execute a nation-wide campaign to pressurise the government into entering into negotiations with the aim to ban cluster bombs.
4. Write to their MPs and urge them to field questions about this issue during Question Time in Parliament; or to the Opposition, appealing to them to take up this cause.
5. Tell everyone you know about Singapore’s involvement as a producer of cluster munitions and its detrimental effects.
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Visit Human Rights Watch’s Documents on Cluster Bombs.
Read also:
Dublin conference targets cluster bomb ban by AFP.
Cluster bomb victims overwhelmingly civilian by Reuters.
Victims urge cluster-bomb ban by The New York Times.
Victims call for complete ban of cluster bombs as conference opens in Austria by The International Herald Tribune
Civilians main cluster bomb victims by The Guardian
Pictures of child victims of cluster bombs here. (Explicit)
Read about cluster bombs here and here.
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Videos:
Global move to ban cluster bombs - 19 May 2008
Nations push to ban cluster bombs (Conference in Dublin)
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Well, all of the above is true but remember, we live in the age of the War on Terrorism and as long as the world powers are happy and content to allow a small Middle Eastern Nation to pulverise it’s neighbours with cluster bombs whenever it feels like it, I don’t see why Singapore should be denied the opportunity to arm itself with such weapons? I mean we don’t live in a world where only that nation in the Middle East is allowed to have weapons?
Sorry, I am a liberal at heart, but when it comes to strategic concerns, I’m all for Singapore equipping herself with the most lethal weaponry available.
The world is not for bleeding hearts.
No issue with banning the SALE of cluster munitions to other countries, but i don’t see why Singapore shouldn’t possess cluster munitions. I’m all for a ban on sale, though. But as we know, Singapore loves moolah…
money money money. If our govt borders about civil rights like these, it would not be Singapore! Hahaha! You got to be kidding.
I don’t think Singapore can use weapons like cluster bombs in any battle to defense itself in war. Any idea how such weapons can be used?
It is a crime against humanity to manufacture cluster bomb for sale, but to say using cluster bomb to defend our country is illogical.
Most lethal weaponry eh? We might as well start stockpiling nukes. Perhaps that can be a persuasive factor in the issue of Pedra Branca. Get rid of these cluster bombs before Mas Selamat limps away with them.
I’m more for nukes than cluster bombs.
During war, a nuke will cause more damage. It is DURING the war that you need maximum firepower and destruction.
After the war, the nuke will leave some residual radiation, but better than hundreds of unexploded bombs.
Anyway, this is the age of high-tech pinpoint precision strike warfare. Cluster bombs are so Vietnam era.
Easy for people to say that they are for cluster bombs, when they haven’t met UXO victims and aren’t victims themselves.. LOL
I can’t believe people are saying Singapore should keep the cluster bombs because it’s useful as a weapon.
I have no problem with Singapore keeping weapons to defend itself, definitely a country needs to have weapons… and even the most lethal ones if required.
But as Shawn says the point is they have to be effective DURING the war. What is so wrong about cluster bombs is that they continue being lethal after the war - and are completely unexpected (much more so than radiation anyway). You kill completely unrelated people long after the conflict is over and for no reason other than the fact that you chose to use those bombs and didn’t clean up…
You can still be perfectly well-armed with other weapons that are equally destructive *during* the war, without having to resort to cluster bombs. I do not think they are as definitive of power and without equal in the way nukes are, which is why the argument that “other countries have it!”, often used as justification for nuclear programs, doesn’t seem appealing to me when it comes to cluster bombs.
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Watch the video under TOC TV on the right sidebar of this website - Global Push For Cluster Bomb Ban.
When something kills innocent children - and not just during a war - then something is wrong and must be done.
Sarek,
It’s open secret that Singapore plans to start defending itself at war in Malaysia, Thailand or Indonesia, pre-emptively against invasion. For once invaded, it’s too late to defend.
For example, something like the Japanese invasion of Malaya during WWII should have been met with and fought out in Songkhla or Kedah, not till they reached Johor.
Another example is in the unlikely event that Malaysia itself turned hostile, Johor must be invaded and occupied to force a frontline at least a few hundred miles away from Singapore. This is why Israel has been occupying West Bank and Gaza Strip terroritories.
At war, Singapore has no tactically negotiable frontline of its own. Once invaded, the entire Singapore becomes warzone and killing field. Therefore, stopping enemy forces from a distance is paramount for survival.
Against this background, cluster bombs would be mostly likely used by the airforce on enemy ground troop movements at least a few hundred miles away from Singapore.
It may be morally questionable, but either you sell arms or you don’t. Be it cluster bomb or rifle bullet, all are meant to kill or wound. The ability to manufacture and sell arms is also by itself offers two strategic layers of defence:
1. Less or no reliance on foreign arms supply, especially in case of emergency.
2. Except in case of some extraordinary disputes, the customer country is most unlikely to turn hostile against the supplier country.
There’s also leverage for the supplier country in political and diplomatic negotiations. This forms an instrumental part of US foreign policy.
Cluster munitions can be manufactured in a way that allows for self-destruction after a certain period to ensure that they do not linger around. There are programmable submunitions in the industry today.. read up about them..
There’s a difference in banning production of such weaponry and pushing for technology that allows for responsible deployment without compromising..
These weapons, like it or not, are very useful in a possible scenario where one might have to flush out enemy forces in less than accessible areas, and if they are deployed in areas with high civilian count, it’s the people giving the orders who are to be blamed for not choosing precision strike options and acting in a irresponsible and inhuman fashion
Not all usage of such munitions are anti-personnel, some are for anti-armor.
“stopping enemy forces from a distance”
Agree that this is the concept of how to fight a war nowadays, fight and defeat the enemy outside your territory.
Those that are not exploded, and most of them don’t, ‘are left on the ground and, like landmines, remain a fatal threat’.
I think the only benefit of using cluster bombs against enemy ground troop movements is to leave some unexploded bomblets on the ground to serve as anti-personnel landmines. However, the enemy can clear a safe corridor easily to negate this effect.
The issue of cluster bombs killing / maiming civilians is that a wide area of land is saturated with unexploded bomblets and the people have no means to clear them and they have to take the risk because they have to live on the land.
Sadly, we know too well that we can’t count on people acting in a responsible and humane fashion.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/12/mil-061220-irin03.htm
“Among the bombs are the Israeli-made M85, which would usually feature a self-destruction mechanism were the bomb not to explode on landing. Even that didn’t work in many cases,” said Farran.
However, the majority of unexploded bombs that the de-mining teams are encountering are the US-made M42 and M77 models. According to a 14 November article in Israeli daily Haaretz, Israel used cheaper, unsafe US-made cluster bombs in Lebanon owing to budgetary concerns.
Sarek_home,
This is why there should be an equal amount of effort spent on ensuring that mechanisms for self-destruction are properly implemented as well.
Anybody know if any other asean countrries are also involved in the manufacture of cluster bombs? One line of argument one can take is that even if Singapore stops the process, another country will step in and take over. So might as well earn some money along the way.
Sarek,
Alas, we have to face the reality of warfare (if it happens, hopefully not) and advancement (i.e. damaging latitude) of weaponry technology.
Two generations of Japanese have conceded that the two nuclear bombs that killed almost half a million Japanese had saved many millions more of Japanese, Americans, Chinese, British, etc. in fighting had continued.
In peacetime, we can mount on white horses or stand atop ivory towers worrying about foreigners’ kins being killed or maimed. In wartime, better be prepared to save our own kins first. Nothing immoral.
1. You see a woman in a boat crossing the river. She’s trying to cross the river to pass her son a knife. Her son is waiting for the knife to kill your mother. She has five other kids with her on the boat who didn’t know what’s going on. You know. Would you sink the boat if you can to save your mother? Or let the boat sail through to keep the five kids alive but see your mother dead?
2. You see two women drowning in a river. One is your mother and the other is someone else. You could swim to rescue only one. Who would you save?
Agree about “the reality of warfare” and everything. Bomb them by all means and there are many types of bombs available in the market. But why cluster bombs?
Why cluster bombs? Why not? What else?
If you fight TERRORIST and you employed cluster bombs is seems quite ok. These terrorists has no moral ground to talk about, they killed almost anyone with no reasons.
If you fight MALAYSIA or INDONESIA because they are cutting WATER or GAS with conventional weapons is ok, but if you use cluster bombs against them and maim their troops and civilians you are asking for a bigger problem.
If we lose the war, our population will be subjected to greater hardship because of a wicked weapons like CB being employed before. On moral ground we will be on a losing end too. Defending our nation is important but how we fight a war with moral authority cannot be dismissed.
The US uses NUKE on japan when the japanese employed terrorist tactics on their fleet. Instead of fighting plane to plane, man to man the JAPS are cunning and wicked. The response from US is the nuke after the JAPS refuses repeatedly to surrender. What is left is major devastation to human lives for the 2 cities in japan.
If we had a war with our neighbour and CB is employed to full effect. We will be getting a very fierce response from our enemies, our neutral countries and allies. We can expect a annihilation from the enemy.
Cluster Bombs is too offensive a weapon designed to main and kill humans not machines.
As for ST building such weapons and exporting to countries (if Burma has it, will the junta start killing their own people who dont support them?) blood of the innocent is own their hands. Always believe in RETRIBUTION.
The end justifies the means, does it not? =)
Raymond,
Indeed what you said is true!
I think it’s fine for Singapore to possess cluster munitions for its own self-defence. After all, it is not in our doctrine to be the aggressor. But we should not be selling cluster bombs, anti-personnel mines or even 5.56mm rounds to countries who could end up using them on their own people, or in unjust wars.
Having said that, there is a reason why ST Engineering has to sell weapons — because the SAF is too small a customer for them to be able to recoup their R&D expense.
The alternative, of course, is for the taxpayer to bear the cost of all this R&D. (Relying entirely on foreign arms is not the answer.)
Fever Guy,
Why always assume the enemy is the usual propaganda? What if our boys have to defend themselves in hostile peace enforcement operations abroad in the future?
CR,
If you send our guys overseas for peaceful operations do you use cluster bombs against enemies for self defense? Using offensive weapons to enforce PEACE?
Our SAF never send ground troops to hostile land because we cant take fatalities. Thats a fact.
Our guys have modern conventional weapons at their finger tips to self defend than the need to use CB to kill and maim lives. Using CB is no PEACEFUL enforcement.
As for usual propaganda, i dont foresee WAR happening for the next 30 years but if there is one that can happened unexpectedly the reason will be for water, food and gas. So you can guess which neighbours they are? We are taught to fight with our lives for water since more than 80% of our supply is from our northern friend. As friend and foe is just a thin line who knows what will happened?
FG
CR,
If you send our guys overseas for peaceful operations do you use cluster bombs against enemies for self defense? Using offensive weapons to enforce PEACE?
Our SAF never send ground troops to hostile land because we cant take fatalities. Thats a fact.
Our guys have modern conventional weapons at their finger tips to self defend than the need to use CB to kill and maim lives. Using CB is no PEACEFUL enforcement.
As for usual propaganda, i dont foresee WAR happening for the next 30 years but if there is one that can happened unexpectedly the reason will be for water, food and gas. So you can guess which neighbours they are? We are taught to fight with our lives for water since more than 80% of our supply is from our northern friend. As friend and foe is just a thin line who knows what will happened?
Fever Guy
Why just ban cluster bombs, how about hand grenades, rifles and RPGs?
War is cruel, period. A grenade, bomb or gun does not distinguish a soldier or civilian in its line of fire. One might argue that a CB does more insidous damage, but all weapons are designed to kill or maim (esp those anti-personnel devices) do they not? it all depends on the intent of the operator.
look at the after effects of nuke n ppl complaining abt clusters? but then self defense ok wif me…sell? nah….
if they wanna claim selling to others for self defense i suggest training n issuing a magnum for every bank teller.
no offense but i dun think mentioning the names of other countries is healthy for the discussion..
oppsss…unhealthy i meant
I disagree with war and when I am at my most ‘extreme’, you can hear me saying strongly that the whole world should disarm. Singapore manufactures and possesses cluster bombs… even with the thought of self defence, I do not agree that such weapons should even be employed. With that, and the idea that Singapore has been advertising and selling publicly to other governments, it is just appalling.
The impact of cluster bombs is not just for now or when they are being used. The impact might last for decades and more, even when peace has been agreed and taken place. I am strongly against the manufacturing, possession, intention to use as well as the selling of such weapons. We do not need to manufacture greater evil to this already evil world. We do not need to even have the intention to use such dangerous and cruel weapons in times of conflict. We definitely do not need to stain our National Treasury with blood money by making profits out of selling such weapons.
Seriously.
Well, just my 2 cents but I agree with the global ban on cluster bombs.
(I still think that the whole world should disarm.)
Hi
“The absence of major producers such as United States, China and Russia” make this conference just so much talk without any hope of achieving anything. Even if Sg stop the production, the buyers will just buy from the big 3 or others.
I think there are many other worthwhile projects that we can concentrate on which have greater chance of getting some results.
Thanks anyway
Cluster bombs or whatever bombs or weapon of mass destruction are necessary evils to contain another evil. It depends on who possesses them. They serve as deterrents for responsible users and on the other hand, no matter how crude these bombs are they can be used as mincers and choppers in the hands of inhuman suicide bombers.
The only solution is there is no solution. We have to live with it as humans are as inhuman and nothing is worser than ourselves.
Why build more evil to contain EVIL? Why not create GOOD to overcome EVIL?
Wah a lot of you like war and killing eh!
The money used to develop more advanced weaponry would be many times more useful if it is used to feed the hungry instead.
And the excuse given is to defend a country against potential invaders. And then it goes into an arms race with its neighbours.Who are these invaders? We don’t live in the colonial age when colonial powers vie with each other for supremacy militarily. In my opinion there’s only one country that is actively displaying its military prowess, and it is using the defence excuse to do just that.
MeowMeowMan is against cluster bombs, the idea of armies, weaponries and all form of violence
I’m quite neutral over cluster bombs. I think let the military strategic experts decide what’s the best means in defence of Singapore. Given the little that I know, I neither advocate nor object. For those who find cluster bombs objectionable, some good news for you. The United Kingdom has just announced abolishing all cluster bombs from its arsenal.
“civilians are main victims of cluster bombs - Reuters, Guardian”
That’s the main point. Civilians = women, children, non-combat people.
There is strong and conclusive evidence that unexploded cluster bombs and landmines have caused an outrageous amount of deaths and casualties in the world, often in war-ravaged countries like cambodia, laos, vietnam.
When you compare the numbers of people killed during the war and the numbers killed after, you will find that the number of people killed AFTER the war is LARGER.
if u think cluster bombs are okay, because it’s just a matter of kill or be killed by your enemies, why dun we manufacture chemical weapons and poison gases too? If your point is that the end justifies the means, then all kinds of weapons, as long as it kills your enemy, should be allowed then?
No. The end does not justify the means.
There is a reason why chemical warfare and nuclear weapons are so abhorred. It is because they continue to cause great damage to people LONG AFTER THE WAR IS OVER.
Isn’t that the same as cluster bombs (which has been proven to cause a lot of civilian deaths long after wars are over)?
Learn from history or remain an idiot. History has shown that CLUSTER BOMBS KILL AND MAIMED MORE CIVILIANS AFTER THE WAR IS OVER.
Like chemical warfare and other really too abhorent weapons, cluster bombs should be banned. Singapore should stop producing it.
I am in full support of such munitions in the SAF inventory. All weapons kill, be it a simple bomb or a cluster one. To think that banning cluster munitions will save innocent civilians lives is a pipe dream. Only the prevention of conflict will. There is no fairness in war. As much as I empathise with the noble aims of a cluster munitions treaty, imho I disagree with its methods.
There is a reason why cluster munitions was developed in the first place. If one takes away cluster munitions, that will mean having more smaller bombs (eg SDBs) or having a bigger bomb (eg ATACMs) to compensate for the bang. Either way, no difference.
Singapore’s defence relies on its ability to deter potential aggressors. The existence of such munitions in its inventory enhances that ability. All of SAF’s munitions, from bombs to bullets to cluster munitions have the ability to kill civilians. In an ideal world, it would be nice to eliminate all such weapons completely. In the real world, it doesn’t work that way.
There is a difference between using different ammunitions. You can’t say that there’s no difference. Different weapons have different uses and effects. A good weapon kills effectively and intentionally. A bad weapon kills indiscriminately, harming those you don’t wish to harm.
Cluster bombs and landmines are bad weapons. It only costs US$1 to produce 1 landmine but it costs hundred times more to remove it once it’s in the ground. Cluster bombs are worse than landmines because they are spread more easily over large areas of land and it has been consistently shown that large numbers are unexploded on impact.
From wikipedia:
“While all weapons are potentially dangerous to civilians, cluster bombs pose a particular threat to civilians for two reasons: they have a wide area of effect, and they have consistently left behind a large number of unexploded bomblets. The unexploded bomblets remain dangerous for decades after the end of a conflict.
Cluster munitions are opposed by many individuals and hundreds of groups, such as the Red Cross,[3] the Cluster Munition Coalition and the United Nations, because of the high number of civilians that have fallen victim to the weapon.”
On national defence:
The campaign to stop the SG govt from producing more cluster bombs does not mean that SG will have no other means of defending itself. We can use other kinds of weapons, weapons that have the same deterent effect without causing the disastrous effect of cluster bombs and landmines. If SG is only dependent on cluster bombs and landmines to scare enemies to defend itself, we can throw away the Navy, airforce, artillery, tanks, etc.
All this while, the arguments for landmines and cluster bombs is just plain talk.
You’re talking about deterent effects, but war between countries continue despite the “deterent effect”.
You say we must be realistic… Well, the reality here is that there are more than 70 million landmines on the ground already. How much more do you want to put there?
Do you understand that right now, in the world, since various wars, there are more than 70 million UNEXPLODED landmines on the ground?
How do you propose to remove them? And if governments (especially the US) have not taken the appropriate responsibility to remove them after the wars (Vietnam wars, korean wars, wars in Africa) , what do you think happens to the land?
The land is WASTED. Nobody is safe to use it for farming or for economical development. Yet, precisely because the people are poor, they risk their lives to continue using the land. And many end up losing limbs or worse still, dead.
Is it fair for the children and descendants to continue to suffer? Lets leave fairness out if you think WAR IS UNFAIR anyway.
Limited land is all we’re fighting for on this planet. Land to farm for food, etc. By placing landmines and cluster bombs, to prevent your enemy or yourself from ever using the land, in the end only results in a land full of dangerous weapons. A land nobody can live in.
In the end, you’re just limiting the amount of space people can live on the planet. This will only lead to more conflict as countries are unable to sustain their populations.
When governments do wrong things, how easy do you think they’ll own up? The politicians just want to protect their rice bowl. They won’t admit their wrongs at all. We need to continue to highlight these pigheaded actions of governments and armies.
“The only way for evil to triumph in the world is for the good to do nothing.”
sh, I respect your view. However, the view imho is miscued for the following reasons:
(1) Singapore’s ownership of submunitions or cluster munitions has never resulted in the loss of a single civilian life.
(2) Singapore’s use of any munitions is governed by its right to self defense which takes priority over any detrimental effects on the lives of civilians (that’s not to say civilian life is not important).
(3) As a consequence of (2), the perceived threat of submunitions or cluster munitions to civilians in the context of Singapore’s ownership is an artificial one based on the presumption that Singapore will use such cluster munitions in a manner detrimental to civilians.
(4) In view of (3), it is a consequence that Singapore’s continued ownership of submunitions will NOT result in the loss of any civilian life except in the unlikely event of a war in which Singapore has to defend itself (and even then on the assumption that submunitions WILL be used or that it is used in a manner that is detrimental to civilian life).
(5) It is not denied that submunitions are more effective than normal munitions. If (1) to (4) holds, then (5) makes the case for Singapore’s rejection of the cluster munitions treaty.
PROOF: As the element of proof, it is not difficult to prove (1). Notice also that if one replaces submunitions with the phrase “simple bombs”, the above is equally applicable.
On the contrary, I have not read a single concrete piece of evidence that disproves (1) to (5) above.
The argument against cms is like saying, car drivers kill more people than bicycles (or for that matter, cluster munitions). So we should ban cars to keep people safe.
lim,
“1) Singapore’s ownership of submunitions or cluster munitions has never resulted in the loss of a single civilian life.”
Of course. There isn’t a WAR yet.
” Singapore’s use of any munitions is governed by its right to self defense which takes priority over any detrimental effects on the lives of civilians (that’s not to say civilian life is not important).”
Of course. Singapore has every right to defend itself with whatever means. We can even have nukes to blast out enemies rite? Why cant we have it? And why not use it?
“As a consequence of (2), the perceived threat of submunitions or cluster munitions to civilians in the context of Singapore’s ownership is an artificial one based on the presumption that Singapore will use such cluster munitions in a manner detrimental to civilians.”
If Singapore not using it why spend money buying and bulding it. Even trying to sell it to other countries?
“(4) In view of (3), it is a consequence that Singapore’s continued ownership of submunitions will NOT result in the loss of any civilian life except in the unlikely event of a war in which Singapore has to defend itself (and even then on the assumption that submunitions WILL be used or that it is used in a manner that is detrimental to civilian life).”
As mentioned, we can used cluster bomb on our enemies does it mean we will not be receiving the same CB from our enemies? By land area, we are defnitely more easy to have higher civilian casualties than any potential enemies. But by telling the whole wide world we have cluster bomb, we just invite our potential enemies to purchase this technology against us. An ARMS race of deadly consequences. What kind of technology cannot be bought with money?
“(5) It is not denied that submunitions are more effective than normal munitions. If (1) to (4) holds, then (5) makes the case for Singapore’s rejection of the cluster munitions treaty.”
We can use high tech weapons to deal with our enemies. Strategic strikes on buildings and vehicles. There are SMART BOMB, Tomahawk missile, GPS guided BOMB, LAser Guided BOMB, Heavy BOMBing on selected military siteand many advanced technology that help us win war. Wining a WAR is not about who kill the MOST CIVILIANS. The US invaded IRAQ they empolyed advanced weapons to deal with a backward enemy.
For a small country like us, we should be using high tech weapons that disable enemies machinery and force their soldiers to lose heart. Boosting our morale and dealing the enemy a heavy hand. Unwarranted killing may result in a long term hatred and irrepairable consequences. Win the WAR the smart way not butchering innocent people.
FG
Hi Feverguy. I respect your opinion but I would highlight the following:
Your view: Of course. Singapore has every right to defend itself with whatever means. We can even have nukes to blast out enemies rite? Why cant we have it? And why not use it?
(A) Wrong. The rationale for Singapore to have nukes as opposed to cluster weapons are entirely different and the rationale for using it is on an entirely different plane.
Your view: As mentioned, we can used cluster bomb on our enemies does it mean we will not be receiving the same CB from our enemies? By land area, we are defnitely more easy to have higher civilian casualties than any potential enemies. But by telling the whole wide world we have cluster bomb, we just invite our potential enemies to purchase this technology against us. An ARMS race of deadly consequences. What kind of technology cannot be bought with money?
(B) Singapore does not restrict nor can it dictate what other countries do or do not do. We already have cluster munitions for a number of years. Our neighbours know it and Singapore has not hidden that fact. I don’t see the sky falling. As spoken, the way to minimise the impact of cluster munitions (or any kind of munitions) is the prevention of conflict.
It is also idealistic to think that if Singapore banned cluster munitions, our enemies in a war in Singapore would refrain from maximising civilian casualties.
Your view: If Singapore not using it why spend money buying and bulding it. Even trying to sell it to other countries?
(C) As much as we spend on defence, it is our desire that our military incl cluster munitions would never be used. But we still spend on defence because our military is in itself a deterrance. It doesn’t apply to just cluster munitions but our entire military. Ironically, most of what Singapore produces in terms of arms are not weapons that are developed by Singapore but merely licensed.
If everyone can live with each other without conflict, I agree we won’t need a military. But we live in a real world.
Your view: We can use high tech weapons ….Unwarranted killing may result in a long term hatred and irrepairable consequences. Win the WAR the smart way not butchering innocent people.
(D) Cluster munitions are not developed nor meant to kill civilians neither are smart weapons. However both do kill civilians. Cluster munitions due to its enhanced effectiveness has the ability to kill more. It is unrealistic to think that by not using cluster munitions in a war, one can avoid long term hatred or other similar consequences. No amount of smart weapons can avoid civilian loss of life in a war. I repeat, the prevention of war is the only method in which civilian loss of life can be avoided.
The US military can do a lot to minimise civilian loss of life as in the use of smart weapons. That’s also because they’re far bigger than Singapore. Can small Singapore take or afford such military risks? I don’t presume to think that Singapore can be like the US.
(E) Ultimately, the ban on cluster munitions especially in the context of Singapore is idealistic. It would be nice to ban tanks, aircraft, bombs and bullets too but we live in the real world.
You did not answer my question. Is there a WAR to begin with? Why not buy a MOAB too? We can buy anything and claim as deterrent. Why not?
A) Wrong. The rationale for Singapore to have nukes as opposed to cluster weapons are entirely different and the rationale for using it is on an entirely different plane.
Of course. Firstly, we dont have even with money we cant buy them. Why? If we buy them do you dare to tell the world we have it and use it as a deterrent What are the consequences can you think of?
(B) Singapore does not restrict nor can it dictate what other countries do or do not do. We already have cluster munitions for a number of years. Our neighbours know it and Singapore has not hidden that fact. I don’t see the sky falling. As spoken, the way to minimise the impact of cluster munitions (or any kind of munitions) is the prevention of conflict.
Yes. Our neighbours know it, please tell me what is going through their thoughts on our possession of Cluster Bombs? Do you think they find us friendly neighbour?
Yes, if we cant dictate what other countries do with the Cluster Bomb therefore dont sell them. Why have the blood of the innocent on us? Our tax payer ’s money goes into building CB to maim innocent lives? If we sell such weapons to countries like burma, north korea or any other human rights abused states is not morally right. No. The sky will not fall, as i dont see it falling when the nuke hit nagasaki. The US still use the nuke on Japan during WW2 killing thousands so can conflict be prevented by having a NUKE in their hands. Can conflict be prevented by having Terrible Weapons in our hands? Conflicts will occur no matter what weapons we have…therefore having a strong diplomatic relationship with our neighbours are important.
C) As much as we spend on defence, it is our desire that our military incl cluster munitions would never be used. But we still spend on defence because our military is in itself a deterrance. It doesn’t apply to just cluster munitions but our entire military. Ironically, most of what Singapore produces in terms of arms are not weapons that are developed by Singapore but merely licensed.
Spending on military defence is very important. Bear in mind, where are the accountability in over spending on hardwares that will never be called into action in a conflict. Expensive weapons must be justifiable why and what purpose they are bought and will it ever be put into good use. Do we expect to go to WAR anytime soon within a few years or months. Buying EXPENSIVE JUNKS to deter Conflicts are not sensible thing. Every Armed Forces in the world is a deterrence no gahmen will stop putting tax payer’s money into them. We know that but cautious approach to expand and improved our forces should take priority than buy buy buy any kind of $$$$ toys. Latest news from BBC and CNN, countries are banning CB altogether. We Singapore are kiasu and kiasee coz we spend on the license now and manufactured so much CB it doesn’t make sense to throw them out. Israel has them too but for them their name is already so SMELLY in the middle east, ARABS there ain’t kind to them if a war again break out. In Singapore, our names are not smelly here…do you want that to happen?
(D) Cluster munitions are not developed nor meant to kill civilians neither are smart weapons. However both do kill civilians. Cluster munitions due to its enhanced effectiveness has the ability to kill more. It is unrealistic to think that by not using cluster munitions in a war, one can avoid long term hatred or other similar consequences. No amount of smart weapons can avoid civilian loss of life in a war. I repeat, the prevention of war is the only method in which civilian loss of life can be avoided.
SMART bomb is superior to Cluster Bombs. SB is used to strike key buildings be it military or industrial and death is swift and innocent humans are spared unless targeted wrongly. That itself can be blamed on the weapon firer.
But CB is different…it kills too but many are left unexploded and many innocent lives are taken when they accidentally step on it. These innocent lives have no mine detecting legs, children,elderly and farmers are unfortunate victims. Please take a look at those pictures, tell me whether fighting a WAR requires sacrifice of innocent lives necessarily. We have many other weapons that can do strategic strikes …do we need to use a BOMB as DUMB as Cluster Bomb?
I am not living in a make believe world as MM and PM said during a MSK escape. I am in the real world.
In fact, I find that these world we live in is full of conflicts each day but we all has a responsibility not to worsen it. There are many innocent lives killed by mines and cluster bombs even after many donkey years that conflict has passed. Imagined a Made in Singapore CB killed one whole family in their rice field one day. Will you care? Will ST care? What if a war happen here in Sg where land area is so small, our enemy throw thousands of cheap, insensitive and deadly CB on us. Even if WAR with our enemy ends in us wining it, all these evil CB still laying around HDB, market place and so for waiting to kill the innocent.
What we can buy, others can buy too. What we can use, others can use on us too. Dealing our enemy with intelligent weapons that win a war and not destroy their people lives unnecessarily. Human Lives are so much more precious than a cheap Cluster BOMB. Selling one CB is like killing a life in the future. I hope all of us understand the impact of it. If not many countries are not calling a ban on it.
Your view: You did not answer my question. Is there a WAR to begin with? Why not buy a MOAB too? We can buy anything and claim as deterrent. Why not?
There is no war and accordingly makes the rationale artificial for banning CMs on the basis of SAF killing civilians. See point 1 to 5 above.
Your view: Yes. Our neighbours know it…therefore having a strong diplomatic relationship with our neighbours are important.
Our neighbours are not signatories to the CCW treaty either. Do we want a war with them? No. So the basis of us banning CCWs isn’t going to change a thing.
Your view: Spending on military defence is very important… to them if a war again break out. In Singapore,…do you want that to happen?
I think we can agree to disagree on the utility of CMs in the SAF. The issue of whether military spending has been well spent is another issue.
Your view: SMART bomb is superior to Cluster Bombs….But CB is different…it kills too but many… We have many other weapons that can do strategic strikes …do we need to use a BOMB as DUMB as Cluster Bomb?
I do not disagree that CMs have the ability to kill civilians. But the issue of whether the SAF will want to use CMs to kill civilians is something I disagree with.
Your view: In fact, I find that these world we live in is full of conflicts each day but we all has a responsibility not to worsen it… Will you care? Will ST care? … all these evil CB still laying around HDB, market place and so for waiting to kill the innocent.
Actually, I agree that the sale of CMs should be stopped. Nevertheless, the topic is about production and ownership rather than sale.
ST eng stopped the sale of landmines and it has pulled its brochures on CMs. Singapore’s stance on landmines is well documented and so is its reservation on ownership. The issue is no different for CMs in relation to SG.
However the assumption that the SAF ownership of CMs will result in civilian loss of life is presumptuous.
Your view: What we can buy, others can buy too. What we can use, others can use on us…not many countries are not calling a ban on it…
Even if SAF bans CMs does not eliminate the possibility that other will use CMs on SG. Human lives are precious. However banning CM ownership by the SAF is not justifiable.
to be kind to your enemies is to be cruel to your own soldiers.
the soldiers are the ones who would be risking their lives on the field, there is no reason to ask the ultimate sacrifice from our guys in defending us, and at the same time deny them the best weapon we can afford on stupid humanitarian ground.
war is not an expression of humanity, its the opposite.
Once again , Singapore does not care about others in this world or the effects of their actions on the world and its people . Only that money can be made by Singapore , even if their goods end up in the hands of terrorists etc , and don’t say it won’t . Cluster bombs are like land mines , and kill everyone and anyone , even 100 years from now .
People should look at all the wars since WW2 , all have left unexploded devices worldwide , killing and injuring a lot of people especially children.
Singapore says its for defending itself , do you want cluster bombs etc used in Singapore ???????
Singapore is the 2nd largest exporter of 40mm AGL munitions and launchers. It might be interesting to note how a small and relatively inexperienced weapons manufacturer managed to clinch this spot when compared to larger and more established players around.
One of the main reasons is due to technological advantage through the patented self-destruction mechanism on the 40mm AGL rounds which makes it “safer” and “more ethical” when employed on the battlefield. It should be of no surprise that Singapore employs such technology on its mines and cluster munitions as well. Cluster munition technology has grown by leaps and bounds in the local context and is certainly the effective weapon of choice in certain tactical scenarios. Though I am not at a liberty to mention which forms of platforms such munitions are launched from, it is suffice to say that they can and will be used to secure strategic locations.
If one of Singapore’s aims is to secure strategic location to increase strategic depth in the scenario of an attrition war, it would be foolhardy for the SAF to use faulty munitions that are difficult to clear which may result in much fraternal damage for its own force.
Cluster bombs may not be perfectly “safe”, but neither are the smart munitions that were mentioned. Furthermore, there are also certain strategic roles played by cluster munitions that cannot be fulfilled by other forms of weapons technology.
However, I’d like to note that safety on locally made cluster munitions render most arguments against the use of it futile and if there were to be any importing of any cluster munition by any armed force, I’d rather they import “safer” cluster munitions than the “cheaper” munitions from the US, Vietnam and PRC.
In Singapore, almost every father, brother, son, boyfriend or husband may be called to duty when all else fails and as citizens I think our soldiers deserve every advantage they have to increase their chance of survival.