It is time-consuming and tedious to moderate comments such as these, despite our urgings to refrain from posting such comments.

But i belief there are agents who work like salesman due to the high quota to hit for their comapny. From my information that NTUC Income’s professional advisers mostly give me the impression of stablity and honesty differ from those younger adviser from other company.

Thurs evening i was approached by a young lady from P company to help her in a survey. it talk about our priority in life,i done finish for her the survey, after that she invited me to her campagin and she does some sales talk with me. After that, she took paper and pen out and share with me some savings plan. In my mind i was wondering, why she’s showing me a saving plan but my priority that i done in the survey is on medical aspect?obviously she’s just wanted to sell me something that’s it!!! I don’t believe so much that roadshow could really understand my needs and weakness but should be a place where i can get to know my “professional Adviser” first before we talk further in the future.

Btw, I am not against the_truth. I do not even care if he is an agent or not. I am just against the proposition that whole life is for everyone (keyword is everyone). I am an advocate of greater financial literacy, so more will buy term, and be empowered to reap the most from it.

But I also like to say that the_truth brought some interesting points to discussion.

I quote the_truth

“If they get an insurance plan, they will think differently. This is a protection plan, that I must have. They will look at their wife, their son, their daughter and do whatever it takes to sustain the policy.”

This could be a valid point for people who cannot save. There is a psychological aspect and emotional guilt to surrendering. This may be helpful to them. Not sure if there are reader who can attest to the viability of this?

zhummeng’s points are quite interesting too. He has experience with bad agents.

I am fortunate not to have that many dealings with agents. I had only one agent, from Prudential. We parted our professional dealings some two years ago when I decide to go solo. She did well to craft a 70% term, 30% whole life. Nonetheless, I surrendered the policy (as I am a term convert). We are still good friends. And she had recently shifted to become IFA.

I wonder if readers could share their relationship with their agents?

Restructure of Bonus not applied fairly
Dear Mr. Tan,
I have three policies belonging taken by my family, which are subject to the bonus cut. I do not like the cut, as I am not guaranteed to get the special bonus at a future date.

My friend told me that he has bought a Vivolife policy that is not subject to the bonus cut. The bonus rate is higher than my policy, before the cut. Why does NTUC cut the bonus for some policies and give higher bonus for other policies. Is it because the higher bonus will help to sell the Vivolife? I find this to be very unfair. Should I lodge a complaint to MAS?
TBL

It is revealed in this latest posting that NTUC Income is practicing a double standard treatment of its old and new policyholders. Bonus cut for old and existing policyholders while giving higher bonus for its new policies. This puts the integrity of NTUC Income into question. Meanwhile, every month that we wait, Income is merrily deducting through GIRO our hard earned money. I say NTUC Income should suspend all deductions until this is sorted out.

Mr. Thruthfool is holding his vivo insurance for more than a year now.One evening his phone rings and over the other side is a familair voice , the voice of his insurance agent.
Mr. Agent: How are you, mr. truthfool?
Mr. Truthfool: Fine, who is that?

Mr. A; I am your agent who sold you the vivo insurance.I happen to see your name and decide to call you and say hello.
Mr. truthfool: Oh Yes, i remember . What is up?
Mr. A.: Call you to find out if you are ready for your insurance review. By the way,
you must have recieved a fat bonus, eh? this year, did you? Did you also recieve a pay rise?
Mr. truthfool: is that the reason you call me? to ask me about this?
Mr. A: No ,no. I call to see if I can review your insurance.
Mr. truthfool: What is there to review? I have a 25K vivo and you said it could cover me for wholelife against critical illness, total disability and death….and I am still alive!! ….!everything ok..
Mr. A: No, what i meant is to find out whether you wish to top up.
Mr. Truthfool: to up for what?
mr. A: to top another $25K so that you will have $50K
Mr. Truthfool: who don’t know?
Mr.A: you top up whenever you have money and that is how we review for people
Mr. truthfool: Oh, I see . But I have enough…..$25k is already a lot of money.I don’t think I want more.. I am not greedy
mr. A: but Mr. Truthfool, $25K is too little. You remember, I asked you to let me know when you have money so that i can help you to review and top up your insurance?
Mr. Truthfool: Yes but i just bought a computer for my daughter for her school work. I don’t have any more money. Maybe another time. Why hurry.? I will be still around.and alive. don’t worry..
Mr. A: ok, ok . what about your CPF? ( no fish prawns also good)
Mr. A: Only some in my special account, about $5000../
Mr. A: good, good. I can invest for you in our single premium endowment
and it got double indemnity if you die from accident. good right? Are you free?
Mr. truthfool : no, not sure. I call you, ok?
The call ends. .. and phew!!! sighs Mr. truthfool… what a nuisance.

to be continued in next episode

Whilst insurance should be seen as a protection more than savings, whole life plans are unique in that there is a built-up cash value. Comparisons that I know of are usually made against no-risk financial instruments like savings interest. So to totally ignore comparing the returns on whole life does not seem to be fair, more so when a savings component has been priced in the product.

On the other hand, Term which has absolutely no cash value can never be compared to a savings/investment product. Term + Investment together is the closest comparison to a whole life, beyond which I cannot think of any.

Can you show us an example of a good value whole life policy (in your opinion) with effect of deduction?

NTUC Income is a cooperative, and does not have to pay corporate tax (to my best understanding). I believe this is a reason why they can price products cheaper than its competitors. The question here is does the lowest price product necessarily mean good value for its price? I feel it is not a matter of comparison, take the best in class, and case close.

Price should be seen on an absolute and not relative manner. My view is that whole life at its current cost offers good value with not so good price, even for the cheapest product. Distinguishing between value and price here is important.

My question to you is this.

If you find a person has excellent money management skills, frugal, and earn a good income, has personally beaten/equal the market return for the past 10 years. He buys term and invest the rest. Do you think he should buy whole life?

My answer to this is, he shouldn’t. For he will be in a financially better position than if he buys whole life. He buys a term, builds up his reserve, and when the term expires his reserve is much larger than what the whole life could be built up to. Best of all, true freedom as he can claim from himself from not just 30 critical illness, but any major illness. This can also provide the protection.

Thus, with this one group of people proven, I don’t think it can be said that whole life is for everyone (everyone is too big a word).

Blackbox,

(1) Price is what you pay and value is what you get. Whole life has good value, as it covers one for life. The question is, are you getting good value at good price? The next question is whether you can get a similar value proposition (not product) for a lower price. The proposition of ‘Buy term invest the rest’ offers this.

My RATIONALE: That is why I have been recommending that what Tan Kin Lian should propose is whole life insurance with the lowest effects of deductions instead of term insurance as a “one-size-fit -all” solution.

…and I believe NTUC Income gives the best valued whole life insurance due to their cooperative policy.

I get the BEST valued Whole Life Insurance policy in Singapore, that covers me Death, Disability, Dread Diseases in ANY GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCES.

Isnt that GOOD? ( :

(2)It forces them to save, I agree. But the key issue is that they will most likely still surrender due to low savings + low discipline. One step forward, and two steps back. So in view of the inevitability that they will most likely surrender, might was well put in bank or invest. As the surrender value is much higher.

My RATIONALE: For the less discipline individuals, when they get a savings plan, they may stop and enjoy the money, because in their mind, these money I have saved, is meant to be used.

If they get an insurance plan, they will think differently.

This is a protection plan, that I must have.

They will look at their wife, their son, their daughter and do whatever it takes to sustain the policy.

This policy is geared for PROTECTION and not for spending.

Anyway, lets not talk about “surrender value” here, since the emphasis or true OBJECTIVE of whole life insurance is indeed PROTECTION against Death, Disability, Dread Diseases in ANY GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCES.

We are not talking about returns or how much money we can get back.

We are only concern on PROTECTION against Death, Disability, Dread Diseases in ANY GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCES.

(2)So whole life to a spendthrift is like a good strategy doomed to a bad outcome. The key here is the distinguishing of strategy vs outcome.

My RATIONALE:Whole Life Insurance is for everyone and it lead to a GOOD outcome.

You get the peace of mind, that you have PROTECTION against Death, Disability, Dread Diseases in ANY GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCES.

Your family will be well taken care of, should anything were to happen to you, of course, only if you have Wholw Life insurance.

(2)So going one round, it again boils down to the person. I stand by my view that people who are financially ill-disciplined will remain financially poor no matter what instruments (whole life or term/self-invest) they use.

My RATIONALE: I agree with you on this. ( :

(2)In such a case, neither whole life nor term will save the man. In fact, putting money in bank with low interest may surprising turn out the best outcome, though bad strategy.

My RATIONALE: No matter what his strategies are, he still need PROTECTION against Death, Disability, Dread Diseases in ANY GIVEN CIRCUMSTANCES.

……and WHOLE Life Insurance is absolutely THE WAY!! ( :

The_truth

I am not supportive or against TKL’s protest. From the days of TKL blog, I have stood out as a ‘Buy Term’ man.

My personal view is that the bonus restructure is a logical strategy but also one that is emotionally hard to accept. And it is one that hinges heavily on trust on management. Given that management is a variable component, the outcome is uncertain.

I do however think there will be a political price to pay if indeed the management does not deliver. This is because TKL openly mentioned that Mr Lim and Mr Yao are supportive of the move.

If I approach it from game theory, I would place my bet that NTUC Income can deliver. The stakes are too high for the two men, and consequently their affiliated political party. A heads-tail game that has skewed probability.

Caveat: I am just looking at it purely from a gambler’s perspective. I do not mean to suggest you continue your whole life policy.

So anyway, given that in general, the outcomes of life insurance is uncertain (depends on bonus issues, investment climate, quality of management etc), it i best to invest on your own.

But this takes great responsibility and ownership, though a rewarding one.

(1) “This only happen because term insurance advocators is confuse on the reason why they get whole life insurance.”

Price is what you pay and value is what you get. Whole life has good value, as it covers one for life. The question is, are you getting good value at good price? The next question is whether you can get a similar value proposition (not product) for a lower price. The proposition of ‘Buy term invest the rest’ offers this.

I agree with you not everyone is suited. But viewed in isolation on a purely financial/economic basis, it is better. Therefore, I also disagree whole life is for everyone.

(2) “The first benefit of whole life insurance is that, whole life insurance forces them to save, if they dont have the habit of savings.”

It forces them to save, I agree. But the key issue is that they will most likely still surrender due to low savings + low discipline. One step forward, and two steps back. So in view of the inevitability that they will most likely surrender, might was well put in bank or invest. As the surrender value is much higher.

So whole life to a spendthrift is like a good strategy doomed to a bad outcome. The key here is the distinguishing of strategy vs outcome.

So going one round, it again boils down to the person. I stand by my view that people who are financially ill-disciplined will remain financially poor no matter what instruments (whole life or term/self-invest) they use.

In such a case, neither whole life nor term will save the man. In fact, putting money in bank with low interest may surprising turn out the best outcome, though bad strategy.

(3) No comments

(4) “Hospital bill is spiralling upwards and not downwards. Everyone needs the best medical plan, giving the BEST COVERAGE when in need.”

Given that Class B and C are highly subsidised, I don’t think anyone in the lower middle should over-tax themselves paying overly comprehensive health plans to go Class A (which is not subsidised) or private wards.

Medishield is well crafted, with strong emphasis ownership in the co-insurance/deductible component. Too many health plans contain alot of fluff (TCM treatment, pre-hospitalization, parent accomodation for child, get well benefit etc).

Of course, I would strongly urge the person to upgrade to the best private Shield when his finances allow, for his whole family. And get one with life-time cover, since people are growing older.

Again, think along value-price proposition.

Again I would like to remind everyone to stick to the issues. If the mutual personal attacks continue, comments on this thread will no longer be allowed and the thread closed for comments.

Thanks.

What truth is sort of p***s off with what the_truth is been trying to share his view. I don’t know where he coming from but i’m sure he has insurance for himself. He believe so much in wholelife and wanted to share the goodness of it, i see there’s no wrong about it. you could also share why term insurance is good too!

PS.Remember well the words of the late Nobel Prize winning economist Milton Friedman:”There’s no such thing as a free lunch.”

I am a policyholder of Ntuc and absolutely disagree that the Truth has the right to speak on my behalf

For all the huffing and puffing – the total truth about WHole life insurance is that We, the Policyholders of Ntuc were NOT given the choice to opt out from the restructuring of bonus !!!! I am sure that if given a real choice the majority of the 300,000 odd policyholders will opt out.

Isnt APATHY a nice thing for some ? Purrr ..

I posted not twice but over 5 times because when I posted under my real nick of RealPolicyHolder, my message did not appear. After having to rewrite 3 times, I suspect that my message has been blocked by the moderator. So I tried various options, including changing my nick, then my message appeared. So I was convinced that messages under my REAL nick was blocked. However, the message appear now. Not sure what is happening. Maybe the moderator can shed more light on this puzzling episode. Certainly the intention is not to create numbers.

But the point now is you are casting a slur on Mr. Tan Kin Lian’s integrity. I have no doubt you will manipulate statistics, but how can you accuse Mr. Tan KL of doing such despicable things? Psychology shows that those who think what other people will do is highly likely such a person himself. Shame on you if you are like that. Anyway, like what What Truth has said, your character is dubious. You are probably posting as Singasoft in the Channelnewsasia forum as well, huffing and puffing smoke to ask people to continue to buy and that you are the majority. Like What Truth believes, you are with NTUC Income, but my take is that you are not the agent but probably one of the management, probably the funky one.

You have been advocating on viovlife and even highting on the benefit of 6 months premium holiday upon retrenchment. In my earlier posting, I put up the following case and ask you what will happen to my policy and you choose to ignore.

” If I put $300 a month on this policy for 14 months and I get retrench so I don’t have to pay premiums for the next 6 months. If I still can’t get a job after 6 months and I can’t afford to continue the payment what will happen to my policy.”

If you are just a policyholder then you should express your views objectively. Why do you keep saying

“We, NTUC Income policyholders will fight for what is right, and segregate away from what is wrong.

You cant IGNORE, hide, shield or run away from the truth….”

May I ask you who you are representing?

You also said that “Whole Life Insurance is For Everyone! ( :”
If you are just an ordinary policyholder what make you so sure that whole life is for everybody. Are you an expert in insurance?

You keep challenging Zhummeng and blackbox and I know both of them had been staunch supporters of Kin Lian’s protest over the the restructured bonus and they also supported Kin Lian’s suggestion to buy term and rest the rest.

We, policyholders of NTUC Income, wants you to be transparent, direct, ethical like most of the agents in the industry.

You are downright unethical, denying the needs of Singaporeans from proper coverage and blabbering in an uneducated manner.

If you find the points, I introduced incorrect, do forward your points.

Whole Life Insurance is for EVERYONE! ( :

Impressive. ( :

Statistics created by Tan Kin Lian himself, using his own blog itself cannot be used, as an evidence to say that majority do not support NTUC Income Bonus restructuring.

Tan Kin Lian’s blog is not independent.

I, myself, can create an online poll and produce a result favorable to me, and proclaimed, oh yes…See, result speaks.

The truth will never be hurt. The truth will prevail!

“RealPolicyholder”, lets not deviate from the topic again, okay?
“The Truth About Whole Life Insurance”.

Whole Life Insurance is For Everyone! ( :

to be continued….in next episode

I am part of the silent majority, who supports NTUC Income management directions to act in the best interest of us, policyholders of NTUC Income.

The truth can be found in the link below:-

http://forum.channelnewsasia.com/viewtopic.php?t=152631&highlight=ntuc

More than 76% are against the withdrawal of the collective protest. Therefore, they are all 100% against the annual bonus cut. If we include those who still insist on going ahead with the protest themselves, the percentage is even higher. Also, those who agree to the decision by Tan KL to withdraw the collective protest may still be disagreeable to the annual bonus cut. So the percentage is definitely higher than 76% which by itself is already the majority.
The Truth hurts isn’t it? So the-truth should stop huffing and puffing smoke around to fool others and,self proclaiming himself to be the voice for the majority of NTUC Income policyholders. I really pity those who are physically around you.