Yes, the government give target this and target that

It prefers to take a “targeted approach”,
remember Selamat’s “targeted search” ?

now the coffers are deemed for “targeted reward” for themselves in next salary hike.

how can that be? Only Singapore got richer, they never did

Ho much do you think insurance salesmen and women get for filling up forms and promise to take care of your claim in the future, if there is one. In one of the posts in the Channel News Asia forum a former receptionist turned agent earned a few hundred thousand a year for selling insurance. Like to jump on this bandwagon?

Golden period, what golden period, nia mah !!!

gahmen wants the majority poor and middle class votes. To do that they make conditions in terms of wages low and increase all costs of living so that the poor forever rely on the handouts. They will vote out of fever and gratitude. When will the poor and middle class realise that they are as powerful in asking for a better future. Stop being a slave to pap.

Moral of story? Study hard when you are young and able or you will grow up to be like the old aunty cleaning tables or the garang kuni man.

We really should campaign against this obscene act of a pay hike for the already fatcat Ministers! Stock markets have tumbled all over the world and corporate CEO pays are trimmed down by market performance and the US regulatory bodies are contemplating legislation to prevent obscene CEO packages except Singapore, where the high and mighty still demands multimillion pay packets for inept, inane and totally appalling incompetent performance!

To each of the fat cat Minister, juxtapose a senior citizen from the lowly paid ranks. Make a photo image of it, print the incomes of each of them. Do the same comparison for all the Ministers. Print large posters and distribute them or buy ad space in ST. Get the ordinary people who have been left out of the ‘rich’ Singapore to sit up and notice this disparity of income, and get their anger up to throw out the whole lot!

With their salaries pegged to top private sector pay, which include the remunerations, there is substantial conflict of interest. That explains why our ministers are adopting a free-for-all policy for immigration and work visas. With almost unrestricted import of labour, CEOs here can get cheap labour, thereby increasing profits…..and their own remuneration. A liberal work visa policy will enhance the probability that some people drawing very high salary would want to work in S’pore.

So our ministers’ salary can shoot up faster…….to the moon!!!

It might interest readers to note that although in theory the entire civil service was supposed to get a pay hike, some people in the civil service still have not their promised hike.

However rest assured, the ministers have already gotten theirs and not just once.

Best Regards

Yes, the ministers’ and president’s salaries are obscene. I like the placard protest. Going to jail is tough though.

there will be retribution on you blood suckers and yr families. i open my eye big big to see. keep oppressing us.

I am in my late forties and am self-employed from 10 years ago. There is no handout from the government to help me when times are bad for me. I have to rely on my one two dozens of credit cards to help me overcome bad times.

While there are 77,000 confirmed millionaires in Singapore, there are about 777,000 ordinarily citizens like me who need some form of help. Of course there is none as the government keep emphasizing that we are not a welfare state.

Half the population now is PR’s and PR’s turned Songapore citizens who came in to take over all the good jobs. That left the half of us struggling to survive the future except those 77,000 millionaires.

What is the future for us? When I am old and my child grows up, I encourage him to migrate overseas to search for a new life. Maybe his chances are better overseas unless he becomes a minister or millionaire in Singapore.

I have spoken to my

One gets what one had voted for.
Stop complaining and do something for yourself and young ones.
Either become an elite yourself or get out of this sorry state.

Rosewine,

by ur logic, the Myanmarese people have got what they voted for in voting for the constitution. But clearly it is illogical to attribute everything to the ballot box.

Simply put, Singaporean voters are not entirely at fault for this state of affairs. There are more complex issues than simple cause and effect.

I used to worked in the financial industry and after an extended period of time of not getting a job in my mid 40s, I’ve decided to move to a place where most Singaporean(66.6%) and the PAP govt despice; where people can speck their mind, where you work for decent wages, where there are real democracy and welfare.

Its nothing glamorous over here. I don’t pretent to be the CEO of a bank here! I only work 8 hours a day, five days a week, as a Security guard.

However, the most important thing is that with my income, I can raise a family of 4, own a car and a house is within striking distant as soon as property price comes down a little. My retirement and health care are also taken care of.

It is dignity, like Tan Kin Lian said:

“I believe that local workers deserve to have an adequate salary for a hard day’s work. This salary has to be commensurate with the cost of living. It should be adequate for a worker to feed a family, at least in a frugal way. The worker should not be expected to work for 12 hours a day, and still not earn enough for the family.”

I do not want to be a slave, and I am glad I call it quits.

Quitter,
can you tell us this ‘paradise’ that many want to go ?

Like I said, this is not paradise, nothing glamorous. But at least you live a dignify and free life. And I like the weather here too. Its Beautiful British Columbia!

Are the ministers still getting pension and salary? can anyone who is aware please enlighten me? if so the actual amount is much much higher.

“Are the ministers still getting pension and salary?”
Salary still get as usual.
Pension ? Who need pension when salary outperform the pension scheme ! It is pathetic that they play around taxmoney. They know that if pension is no longer feasible due to public outcry then use other creative mean to compensate. Use exorbitant millions salary to replace pension. No wonder LKY and coffers want to up retired age ! Useless old farts just keep drawing millions salary of perk if they never retired, right ? Old Pappies FARTS !

Aiya, tok so much here…still will end up being oppressed and controlled one la…

Ask ourselves what the garment has done for us? Basically increase our cost of living, and their own big fat salaries only…

Wanna vote for opposition during GE also no chance sometimes…walkover…

Can’t wait to leave this corrupted place man…

How does one go to this British Colombia isle? Over 40 can still qualify? Work as security guard also can go? If so, I think alot of our security guards here in their 40s would also want to leave. Any links for us to consider?

You claim we have a sense of entitlement? third damned pay increase. Do you know how much I made when I was in the army??? freaking less than $20 a day. how the hell can youhave the face to take $58000 a month. what job do you do that’s worth so much???

You will always be a third class citizen in any other country than your own.

Weijia,

Yes, ministers who are have reached pensionable age are receiving both pensions and salaries at the same time. I wrote about it here:

Annuities for Singaporeans, pensions for ministers?

“Ministers are not given pensions” – Halimah Yacob.

If anyone is in doubt, here is the answer given by then DPM & Finance Minister Lee Hsien Loong in 2004, to NCMP Steve Chia’s question:

Mr Steve Chia Kiah Hong: Clarification from the Minister. Does any serving Minister who turns 55 actually receive both salary and pension at the same time? If yes, should he be serving?

Mr Lee Hsien Loong: I believe the answer is yes. That is the rule for the civil service, and the Ministers follow the civil service rules.

Isnt it true that NTUC Union should fight for the rights of lowly paid or exploited workers?

“Isnt it true that NTUC Union should fight for the rights of lowly paid or exploited workers?”

Isn’t the purpose of NTUC is changed to one that useless and bootlicking role long time ago ?
NTUC = Not To Upset Coffers
So do you think the union will fight for workers’right or fight for PAP’s greed ?

“Otherwise, ministers should be prepared for a severve backlash if and when they increase their own salaries later this year—the third time in two years, by millions of dollars again”. Unquote.

Andrew; the ‘backlash’, if any, will be neutrlized by some little piecemeal handouts. In any case, no backlash can be severve WHEN THE LEADERSHIP HAS INDICATED THAT FORCE WILL BE USED. THAT IS THE ARMY WILL BE USED IN CASE OF A FREAK ELECTION RESULT. BY LOGICAL DEDUCTION, ANY THREAT TO THE LEADERSHIP WILL INCUR SUCH A MEASURE OF ARMY DEPLOYMENT. THE LEADERSHIP IS VERY AWARED OF THE DISSATISFACTION OF THE POPULACE.

patriot.

“Mr Steve Chia Kiah Hong: Clarification from the Minister. Does any serving Minister who turns 55 actually receive both salary and pension at the same time? If yes, should he be serving?

Mr Lee Hsien Loong: I believe the answer is yes. That is the rule for the civil service, and the Ministers follow the civil service rules.”

May I suggest to the honourable PM. Change the rule if you know that something is not right. Governement and Ministers are representatives of the people and they are expected to do the right things and not just follow outdated rules which do not make sense. You have the power to do it. You are the PM. Am I right ?

Sorry lah – shinning future and golden period for who ?

I’m quitting too with my entire family. This is really a pathetic government and they still think that the population love them. My middle finger to all the ministers. I had been running my business and struggling to earn a decent living for a few years. We obtained the licence from the government to run this business. Instead of allowing us to continue and earn a decent living, the government quietly established another similar business and charge the public one-tenth of what we charge. Owing to this, a number of us who had pioneered this business will have no choice but to close down our businesses giving way to the under-cutting tactics. I strongly believe many industries are also affected by the government similar tactics.

The asrsehole civil servants do not know the repercussions of such move. Let me explain, we, who are affected would tell our spouses and children how merciless this government is. They, in turn, will tell their relatives, friends, neighbours, colleagues, schoolmates, varisty-mates, poly-mates and religious groups what this foolhardy government and arrogant civil servants had done to the breadwinner’s business. As such, there is already a wide-spread disquiet and all who have heard our plight – EVERYONE OF THEM AGREED THAT OUR GOVERNMENT IS ARROGANT AND HAS LOST-TOUCH WITH THE GROUND. We can’t wait for the next election to vote them out. ONLY IF WE HAVE THE CHANCE TO VOTE.

In another country, we may be treated like a third-class citizen, at least the government of that country gives us dignity to earn a decent living and that government does not interfere with the business affairs of the community. Although I pay a higher tax, I am assured of a pension, free healthcare and education for my children. I can also own my own freehold property working with blue collar salary.

One thing for sure, I dont need to end up collecting cardboards or drinking cans like those old folks in Singapore.

So sad that we have to leave the country that we love so much because of the deep resentment of the PAP government which has become corrupted and totally not transparent. They have fooled us all these years and our veiled eyes seemed to open finally and make that the decision to get out.

Ministers/civil servants of other countries may not be so highly paid or intelligent or efficient than the Singapore ministers/civil servants but the minsters/civil servants of other country have more wisdom and respect for their citizens and practice proper human rights which is very lacking in this tiny red dot. Just look at all the recent events and how the government and ministers pushed away responsibilties. If Singaporeans still cannot see and act accordingly, then we can’t help but feel sorry for our beloved countrymen.

“Mr Lee Hsien Loong: I believe the answer is yes. That is the rule for the civil service, and the Ministers follow the civil service rules.””

This shows the lack of confidence in him. A yes means yes, no need to say believe. Just a fundamental question he can’t even answer directly and honestly ? As a PM, what did he really know except to exploit the citizen for more money ? Is he really the Prime Minister or Pathetic Moron ? Freaking disgrace as such a tiny tiny red dot need the world most expensive PM, MM, SM to manage with the world most expensive and useless president of all time ?

Ironically, those he and his coffers who always claim that economic growth is important all the time are the one that greatly benefits from it in term of perk and salary increase because the economic is tied as KPI. In other words, these coffers tend to ignore the social issues for the sake to pursue economic growth using MSM, radio as mouthpiece.

Policies have been made and it affects the salary increment of an elderly worker; Salary increment, it seems to be quite impossible one. I begin to wonder, what would happen to me when I am old. I might see myself being underpaid at the same time I have to look after myself.
Our great leaders love to earn all the credits and when I talked about gratitude / rewards i.e. look after the elderly, they would just say,” haven I paid you a salary previously?”. ( I was told this in an online discussion @ youngpap blog)

This could be the logic in the little people mind. Increase pay X time and after 5 years. He has enough for another 4X years of pay in pocket….

Tiredman on June 28th, 2008 10.29 am

“Our great leaders love to earn all the credits and when I talked about gratitude / rewards i.e. look after the elderly, they would just say,” haven I paid you a salary previously?”. ( I was told this in an online discussion @ youngpap blog)”

Use the same approach back to them (e.g public officers, civil servants, MPs and Ministers, etc) if opportunity presents itself so that they can have a taste of their own medicine. Spread the message to as many people as possible with evidence. People will feel uncomfortable because the same thing can happen to them also.

Snobbish and arrogant people need to have a taste of their own medicine. To be effective, you know what to do when it comes to the ballot box.

Medicine,
I think you are a funny guy who hide yourself behind different names. I am sharing my views and experience. I do not like the word spread. People will realise this themselves.
tiredman

when everything still going up and hitting the roof. and yet ur whole bloody team of pp salary not affected at all.and still going to increase .let me remind u again u play no god u r just like us .ENOUGH IS ENOUGH .

Tiredman on June 28th, 2008 12.20 pm

Lobang broken already. Never mind. One thing I do know and it is my sole objective. To support people like you. You’re right. People will realise this themselves. However, we still need to do the tiring work (this fits comfortably with you name) to hasten the process.

Good luck to you and till we meet again. Keep it to yourself about the lobang.

[...] http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/06/whose-future-is-%E2%80%9Cshining%E2%80%9D-really/ Local, Vote PAP somemore [...]

hi all,

i think that you people are taking this in the wrong light. Even though the government allows foreigners into the country does not mean that Singaporean’s are second class. Thus far I have never seen a case of discrimination because of a person being Singaporean. Why would our own government want to harm you? It just does not make sense. I believe the government is trying its best to help Singaporeans in the long run. By providing the Singapore government with the job security and necessary means to draw talent, we can ensure the stability and well being of our country. I think that even if it may seem unfair to others that the government draws a salary much higher than others, it is by no means “obscene”.

There are many great aspects about Singapore. For example, Singapore is much safer than New York. It is true that two cronies attempted to escape recently, but overall the crime rate is still much lower. The government has also managed to provide affordable housing for many Singaporeans. Singaporeans should be thankful for such things too.

To end this all, it is reasonable that the government peg is salary to the private sector.

In the states, the best CEOs, attorneys and bankers can easily earn in excess of US$10million. However, not many people complain about these people earning that kind of money. This is because they create value for their clients, be it through winning cases, investment or the successful running of a business. Therefore, since Singapore is doing well, we should judge the government by this same yardstick. Over the years, the government has built Singapore from small fishing village into a great metropolis that can hold its own amongst the best cities of the world to live in. Once we learn to appreciate that, we will complain less about the “obscene” salaries.

Oh, one last point – no where in the world can you expect to always have job security. I agree that S$2.95 is ridiculously low. But from a holistic picture, if we implement a minimum wage, for example S$10 (comparable to US$7 in the States), it would make obtaining jobs much more difficult for workers in general.

Dear amanda,

Allow me to ask you one simple question :

How do you justify the billions lost to bad investments against the absolute refusal to spend a little on SOME subsidies (e.g. rice) ?? On what moral ground ?

To me – if the Government is prepared to lose billions in bad investments – then it must first be prepared to spend a few on SOME important subsidies.

Dear Dr Syed Alwi,

Financial investments always involve risks. Yes, I know that’s cliche but its true. Every major investment bank has made losses before. Even UBS, Morgan Stanley, Citibank and so on had to make hefty write downs in the wake of last year’s housing crisis. Everyone knows that Wall Street has the best investors (in general). I think therefore it is unrealistic to think that GIC, or Temasek can truly avoid losses.

Dear amanda,

If one is prepared to risk billions of dollars of public funds – then one must first be prepared to spend a few on SOME subsidies.

Remember – the public should NOT subsidise the Government in risky investments. It is the Government who should subsidies SOME commodities for the public !

Amanda, how old are you? Is this what they’re inculcating in Social Studies these days?

haha. that’s a secret. but probably not as young as you think; I’ve been working in the States for some time.

Dear amanda,

It is NOT the business of government to become another Morgan Stanley. The government is not a profit making body answerable to shareholders.

The government is answerable to the people. And it is NOT the people who should subsidise the government in risky investments.

To me – if the government wants to make risky investments – then it must first spend some money on some subsidies. Otherwise the people will just be giving the government a blank cheque.

Worse still if all these risky investments is done in secrecy and without transparency. What you then breed is NON-ACCOUNTABILITY whose end result is simply an abuse of the system – sooner or later.

I think it is fair for the government to build up its reserves. Building up reserves generally happens in only two ways

1) Taxing the population more
2) Investment

Investment is a pragmatic and useful solution to increase Singapore’s reserves. So I don’t think there is a problem here.

On the other hand, the government has built up a fair amount of reserves. These can of course be used to subsidize necessities. However, what subsidies would be necessary? Furthermore, the fact that it is possible does not make it necessarily expedient.

I think that generally speaking, Singapore’s cost of living is already pretty low. The lowest cell phone plan in the States cost US$40 (S$54) but it costs only about S$25 the last time I visited (2006). Furthermore, food is sooooo cheap (and tasty). Even using the MRT are much cheaper than the subway. It is like US$2 a trip here (regardless of how many stops you take).

So Singaporeans are already saving alot of money.

also, Dr Alwi,

don’t you think Singaporeans lately are starting to develop a great sense of entitlement – as if the government has to provide everything for them. They want cheap food, good housing, 5Cs, etc. Plus no competition in the workplace, job security, etc.

Cannot la! so unrealistic.

The excellent work ethics that Singaporeans have had and that which has brought us to become what we are today should not be trodden down by this sense of entitlement. just because we are Singaporean, and just because this is Singapore, doesn’t mean we should have special treatment. How is that different from the malaysian Bumi Putra policy which Singaporeans like to criticize.

Dear amanda,

The cost of living in New York may be high. But I too have lived and worked in the USA. Try South West Virginia – its a lot cheaper than New York.

In any case – the cost of living in Singapore is becoming unbearable especially since there are no subsidies. Unlike America……………….

But we are NOT asking for American standards. Just don’t expect us to subsidise Government investments without a corresponding committment towards some kind of subsidy………

Dear amanda

As for asking for too much and entitlements etc – I think that it is the Government who has developed a subsidy mentality here ! They expect Singaporeans to subsidise their mistakes and poor investment decisions !!

Amanda,

If everything so cheap why so many struggling to make ends meet? Leaving beyond their means ? Tell that to the lady cleaner.

Dear amanda,

It is not cheap here in Singapore and yes – Singaporeans do have an excellent work ethic. Too bad the same cannot be said of our politicians.

They expect Singaporeans to subsidise their highly inflated salaries. And they also expect us to subsidise government investments.

That is OK – PROVIDED – they return the favour by subsidising some commodities for us. I honestly think that its only fair and wise.

How can a government be prepared to risk and lose billions of dollars of public funds in bad investments – but at the same time – totally refuse to spend some money to subsidise some commodities for the people ?

What kind of morality is that ?

Amanda,
I believe you are one of the trendy, cool young adult, probably not married yet.
Everything is provided for you by your parents ( maybe both working) when you were young. Your life is so smooth-sailing that you feel that the bloggers are exaggerating about what life is happening in Singapore.
One thing for sure I do not realise I have any entitlement from the Government except that I know Singapore is my country where I was born and probably buried (if there is still land) here.
Like others, I have a home and felt the turbulence of inflation lately. It is no jokes for those who struggle daily to feed a family. I don’t think that these people are asking the Government to help them paid everything but to ease a little of their burdens by using the surpluses/reserves the Government have accumulated from the past 40 over years.
I don’t question the Government policy in making investments overseas, but no Government is indispensable and what provisions have you made should your investments failed. I hope your foresight is sharp and accurate but I learnt from my teeny investments that there is no absolute win situation.

Quitter,
>>Like I said, this is not paradise, nothing glamorous. But at least you live a dignify and free life. And I like the weather here too. Its Beautiful British Columbia!
>>

Ah, another Canadian resident! I am a half-quitter. I brought my whole family to Ontario to comply with the mandatory landing, then returned to Singapore. Technically speaking, we are Canadian residents too.

The reason why my family returned is because while waiting for the PR approval (about nearly 4 years), my eldest daughter bonded herself with the Sg government, while my second son looks to be heading that way too. Things change during those 4 years, you know.

However, since we already have the PR, I may consider residing in Canada at least 2 years out of 5, so that I can extend the PR for another 5 years for my wife and youngest child.

BC was actually my first choice because of its relaxed environment. However I have had a few reservations. One is the cost of living appears to be higher in Vancouver than other cities, no thanks to the Hongkongers driving real estate prices. Secondly, I believe that city is not too far off from the earthquake belt.

Toronto and Barrie areas don’t look too exciting (still too crowded by my standards) but I am quite comfortable with it. That was the area I was around, when I brought my family over to Canada.

How’s the going in BC then? Other than the scenic and relaxed lifestyle, how is the cost of rental now? I may reconsider that province if I were to drop by there again.

====

Singaporean
>>How does one go to this British Colombia isle? Over 40 can still qualify? Work as security guard also can go? If so, I think alot of our security guards here in their 40s would also want to leave. Any links for us to consider?
>>

The cut off age for application for Canadian residency is 49, I think. You need to have qualifications, skills and experience that the Canadian government wants, of course.

Waiting period is now 4 and a half years to 5 years, for you to have the PR approved.

Useful link: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

Dear amanda,

things in singapore would seem cheap to u if u earn an american salary. the straits times interviewed a gardener employed by the NY municipal govt to take care of the central park some time ago. his salary is higher than mine at that point of time. i’m not a gardener, so u cant say that its comparing gardener to gardener. i am a middle-mgt civil servant with a master’s degree.

Dear Amanda,

Saving a lot of money? It is relative to how much someone in the States takes home as well. You can’t just say that objectively, Singaporeans save a lot of money, because it is only relatively cheap, without taking into consideration that people in general do not earn as much as Americans, unless you happen to be a politician.

As for our sense of entitlement, i don’t think our sense of entitlement is that unrealistic. But as people become more educated, you can’t avoid the fact that they will start wanting more. So we should educate our people, raise their human potential, then leave this human potential unused? A Government serves the people, and you can’t say objectively that it has been. Subjectively, you could say it has been, although it is your own opinion. Why, you work in the States. These demands take different forms but are present as well.

Dear Amanda,
Since you like to compare apple to orange, please convince me why our Prime Minister / ministers’ pay is higher than the America’s president, Bush’s salary? A man who is able to wage war against another country (making great decision) takes a lesser salary?

I understand that the living standard over there in America is very high (lower than in SG; correct me if I am wrong), however, President Bush takes home lesser salary than ours. So, what so different is our ministers as compare to the ministers in America? Enlighten me.

Regards,
Tiredman

..sigh… all these talks…

They (the government) say they don’t owe us a living. But somehow, we ended up owing THEM a living! And for what? For an increasingly frugal and desperate living in Singapore as citizens.

They coin fancy terms, phrases, and seemingly logical sounding initiatives. But do they really work for us? DID anything positive come of it all? Why does it all turning out like half pails of water to put out a forest fire?

If in the ultimate end they lose votes and eventually gets voted OUT, they deserve it. And no, Singapore WILL NOT be ruined in 5 years with an opposition party restoring livelihoods, happiness, motivation, and sense of belonging in Singapore among Singaporeans.

FAP, it is soon time to take a hike…

amanda, your mistake is judging Singapore cost of living with your American pay. That is why everything in Singapore is cheap to you. However, you are not doing justice to the average Singaporean who most likely is earning only a fraction of your income. To accurately judge the cost of living in a country, one must relate it to the income. The avearge monthly income of Singaporean is $2,200 according to Lee Hsien Loong. Tell me what is the average income of a New Yorker ? Then you have to factor in the income distribution. I know Singapore is amongst one of the worst in the world. It is as bad as those of third world African dictatorship.

Dear Amanda,

Your view of our gahmen is so good and positive. There is nothing to talk about with you. Anyway you are so brainwash i hope you continue to stay here in a PAPPY controlled country till you grow old and useless to the gahmen and end up collecting cans and old newspaper. I hope you are not highly skilled or highly educated like overseas uni so that you can feel the pain once you hit 40. There are many less fortunate people like you who hardly can make a living now in a high inflation period and influx of cheap foreign labour.

As for the GIC and THE MASAK(like playing toys) lousy investments, all the big ticket items are bought in early 2008 (UBS S$14.5billion, CITI S$10B, Merri Lyn S$7B) when we all know (even those uncles who donno a thing about finance) will not want to get involved in such a purchase. Talented ministers and his wife are really jokers who pour our hard earned money into them. Still got face to ask for more PAY INCREMENTS in millions. REALLY THICK SKIN to the MAX!

Gahmen tax GST and give back some of our money coming this july. I will take becoz its my money but dont think i will be happy about it. GST increases at a time when the gahmen say we had a deficit but is trying to fool who? They know about the surpluses early mid last year and still our dear heartless PM says better to eat the bitter pills at one go then to have to eat in stages. Thank YOU lor!

“don’t you think Singaporeans lately are starting to develop a great sense of entitlement – as if the government has to provide everything for them. They want cheap food, good housing, 5Cs, etc. Plus no competition in the workplace, job security, etc.
Cannot la! so unrealistic.”

I really laughed at your ignorance. I believe most sinkies are not thinking about 5C and job security or competition. They are finding jobs snatched by foreigners, like pump assistant, Video shop assistant, food staff helper, beer lady, cleaners, grocery shop helper are hard to find. If you are a civil servant, you really shown us how out of touch our gahmen has become.

FG

fascinating that they have the balls to declare a minimum wage for their people in the city. Whereas here in Singapore, our govt does not have the balls to antagonise the EMPLOYERS by declaring a minimum wage. WE can all do the calculations : $3.50 X 3 meals X 30 days + rental per person + utilities + kids – but our govt has no heart to set a minimum cos they know that with inflation, their numbers will be way off. And all their outsourcing effort in cleaning the govt buildings / sweeping the floor will go haywire….

Dear People,

It seems to me that we are subsidising the Government for higher pay and bad investments.

However it is the Government who should help us with some subsidies – especially if they are prepared to lose billions of dollars in bad investments.

Amanda maybe a Singapore Civil Servant based in New York, USA.

And she is using selective comparisons, she avoided comparing the average incomes of New Yorkers, prices of cars(vis a vis comparing public transport fares), Social Securities for citizens.

And I think she is not a loyal Singaporean. If transport expenditures are cheap, foods in Singapore are sooooo tasty and cheap and cost of livings in Singapore is cheap. Why does she choose to work away from Singapore? Because there is less stress in New York? Talk is definitely cheap.

To build up Reserve of a country, Amanda believes investment is the way although she says investments ALWAYS INVOLVE RISKS, luckily it does not always involve losses. She cited the problems face by many of the Banks,in which our government have just invested in some of them. Dr Syed Alwi think that “It is NOT the business of government to become another Morgan Stanley”. Unquote.

I think it is not that Singapore cannot invest in banks or even operates bank, it is the timing of investing in those banks that is the issue now. The Banks are ailing when the monies were pumped in as investments. Yes, invest by all means, does Singaporean see the monies put into the ailing banks as investments to make profits or have lost a big sum? Or to save the Banks at little or no gains with risks of losing big in time to come? Based on the timing of the Investments, I think Dr Syed Alwi is right in saying that the monies should be used to subsidize Singaporeans. Singaporeans will be helped and in time to come, Singaporeans will repay the kindness many folds in works(productivity) and dedications to the country.

In any case, in the face of inflation, inflating the remunerations of the leaders against the stagnant, falling incomes of the low income earners and structural unemploment situation, is beyond justification.

This lousy govt will be toppled in 5 to 10 years time. It is not transparent on investment. Even President Ong is not allowed to know our assets. Dont say Nathan lah, even worse, a bad president. Why evrything must compare to USA, if u compare then our cost will be cheaper, but dont forget, the workers in US earn more than ours. How to compare, one bowl of mee in Thailand cost $0.80 sing dollar, in malaysia one bowl of mee cosr RM2.50, why dont u Amanda compare that everything US, nia mah!!

To Tiredman,
very simple, President Bush served the country with dedication and commitment. What I know western leader is more liberal and see money not so important in life. Not like asia PM, where everything talk about money, literally money face, this gives people a bad impression, linking money to willingness to serve, you can peg your pay to MNC CEO pay, provided you can perform like a private CEO. You take responsibility when a serious mistake occur. This govt operate terbalik, as everybody knows, I dont have to mention again. That is the different between Bush and Lee

Dear patriot,

I did NOT say ‘that Governments should NOT invest. To me the Government can and should invest.

HOWEVER – they should FIRST take care of their own citizens BEFORE they put billions of dollars of public money at risk in bad investments.

In other words – if the Government is prepared to risk and lose billions of dollars of public money in bad investments – then they should first be prepared to help the people via some subsidies.

How can a Government risk so much public money – and yet – totally refuse to subsidise some commodities like rice – especially in a time of food crisis and petrol crisis ?

What kind of moral value is that ? And yet they can raise their own salary !!

That is why I say that in Singapore – it is the Singaporean public that subsidises the Government – but in other countries it is their government that subsidises the public !

Everyone has a choice when the next election comes to do something with his vote. Show the gahman who’s boss and they will eat humble pie. Don’t be grateful for the pittance that it throws your way in the form of rebates, handouts etc just before the elections but remember the hardship that you had to go through immediately after the last election. Grow some… and show your wrath.

we the citizen are taking care of the government not the government taking care of us. We take care of them by feeding them billions helplessly but yet the government keep telling the citizen money not enough.

amanda ,
Are you sure your comment aren’t meant for MSM Forum or http://www.pap.sg ? Why don’t your comment to the MSM instead. They will no doubt publish it.

PAP doesn’t harm us, after which each ‘world class’ government do that ? They doesn’t harm us, they just exploit the citizen to no end, feeding rhetoric that only to benefit the coffers themselves. Come on, don’t treat Singaporean as moron. Any common sense laymen can see it, sense and experience the ground.

OK, guys let’s not bully poor Amanda here. She lives in the US of A and once you’ve see how filthy places like New York and London can be, you can appreciate quite a few things about Singapore.

Having said that, I think we are drastic need of more accountability over how our money is being spent. I have no objection to the government spending money on special projects per se but I think the people spending money need to be accountable to their shareholders and in this case, we the citizens happen to be the shareholders. It’s all very well to say that we get $300 a year regularly when we pay $500 a year in extra taxes, if you get what I mean.

Why do we need Temasek Holdings? Why do we need GIC? Is it because the government cannot balance its books without income from elsewhere? What value are we getting from all these investments that the government makes? Look at it this way, if the government’s investments boom some 20 years down the line, do I, as a Singaporean get any benefits in the form of cheaper taxes? Well, based on previous records, we all know that the answer seems to be no. Corporate taxes for the rich go down, gst for the poor go up? Apparently Tamasek and GIC are doing to so well, we need our CPF to held by them even when we reach our 60s.

And look at the competence we’ve had from our well paid civil servants and managers of Temasek/GIC. Since pumping 11 billion Swiss Franks or 14 billion dollars into UBS, the shares have only fallen in value since then. But that’s only money – let’s look at something else – security – in half a year, we’ve had one alleged master mind terrorist limp out of his cell and remain at large, two other clowns nearly walk out of prison and finally an old man walks through immigration with a passport that’s not his own. – This is from a ministry in a government that only pays for the best people and best technology. Incidentally, if you read the budget – $102 million will be spent on ungrading anti-terrorist facilities compared with $92 million for health promotion – it’s most fun to promote our medical industry as being great than to actually teach people how not to get sick.

Dear People,

Indeed – if the Government is willing to subsidise some commodities – it might even help us retain talented Singaporeans from migrating away.

The reason why people migrate is because of economic and political factors. Why should a young, talented and well-educated Singaporean have to put up with nonsense like working more for less ? They are upwardly mobile and can easily migrate to the West where they enjoy a better quality of life.

What plans does the Government have to improve the quality of life here for us ?

More ERP !!

“don’t you think Singaporeans lately are starting to develop a great sense of entitlement – as if the government has to provide everything for them.”

It is the government in the first place want the citizen to depend on them so that the latter can be easily control and stay obedient, don’t they ? The government still do it nowsaday. They control CPF and everything that do with money and profit from the citizen, and then tell the citizen to fart off if they want help from government. Didn’t the role of government is to serve the citizen and country, not themselves, oh I forget. Forget about the country part, Singapore is currently been run as though Singapore=PAP=LKY with no accountability , responsibility and transparency, a obvious sign of pure dictatorship.
Once LKY preaches his ‘word of wisdom’, everything just move on.

The government can’t just behave like someone who pregnant a woman and say that he is not responsible for what happen to the baby and future of the woman.

Dear Tang Li,

Spot on dude. Well said. I totally agree on the accountability issue. I am NOT against the Government investing. BUT – like I said before – if they are prepared to risk that kind of public money in investing overseas – don’t you think that they – the Government – owes it to us to subsidise SOME important commodities like rice etc ?

We’re paying them. And hell of a lot too. ERP, GST, CPF etc etc – where is the ROI (return on investment) for us ?

It cannot be one way without check and balance. Besides I seriously believe that it is their moral duty to help the citizens since the capital that they use for overseas investments comes directly from us citizens. Its public money after all.
You are spot on about the accountability issue.

Governments are NOT Morgan Stanleys etc. A Government has a moral duty to protect its citizens above all. Especially in this era of food and petrol crises.

This is fascinating. Some of you think that just because there are surpluses, we should start giving out handouts and subsidies. Right. Let’s start with rice. Oh, how about cooking oil? Sugar? Everyone needs some desserts from time to time so let’s throw in some ice cream too.

C’mon, it’s a tough world out there, but that does not mean that the way to solve all these problems is to throw away surpluses. How long do we do that for? Until there are no surpluses? Until our foreign reserves are halved? Quartered? How much is too much and how little is too little?

Some of you ask what the ROI is? Well, believe me, I’ve seen how things work elsewhere in Asia (most everywhere else in Asia). We have something that works. Warts maybe, but generally everything works fairly well, and tax rates are low — grumble about GST all you want, but find me any other country where 70% of the people do not pay income tax. That was the trade-off for low tax rates! Fair bargain if you ask me.

There is absolutely no logical connection between investing our savings overseas, and handing out subsidies. In the global economy, with cross-currency transactions and foreign exchange issues, the company or country that does *not* diversify its holdings and invest in foreign currencies *is* betting on currencies. Betting that its own currency will always hold against major trading partners. Any first year B-School person will tell you that in today’s economy, it is essential to spread risks across different countries/currencies.

Painting the little-old-lady-collecting-recyclables is good political sniping, but what does it *really* mean. In any country, there will always be a stratification. There will always be those who for whatever reason, get bogged down. Do we give them handouts, or find some way to help them with skills-training etc? Many of our countrymen open small/medium enterprises. Many of them fail. Ask these SMEs whether they have a clear idea what they are doing and what their business plan is?

Everyone aspires to be their own boss, but not everyone can do it. Many try and fail. That’s the way the cookie crumbles.

The great thing about America is that those who fail pick themselves up, and try and try again. Don’t bemoan failures and “government-doing-it-cheaper”. If government can be in your chosen business and do it cheaper, maybe (a) that was not a good space to be in, (b) you’re just not very good/efficient at it.

I see TOC likes to use the old woman/man picking up cans or washing toilets or cleaning tables as evidence of government not doing enough.

In comparison to most advanced western countries, where there are millions of homeless people or thousands of people dying of hunger, Singapore is doing exceptionally well.

Furthermore, the story of the old woman cited above “declines help from her children” – it’s her choice. In fact, if anyone really need help or dying from starvation, our government will certainly help.

There is no such thing as a perfect government. PAP has achieved more than any government in the world. Yet it is still continuing to seek better people to manage the country 20, 30, 40 years down the road, I think it is admirable. Very few countries in the world can do that.

Think about it and perhaps you should thank PAP for the awesome job they have done, are doing and will continue to be doing many years ahead. I know I will always support them. Because of their policies, someone from a poor family like me is able to get educated, get a good job, roof over my head, have a balanced lifestyle, have great healthcare system, have freedom to travel or just stay at home and enjoy quality time with my parents and children. I don’t know what you people want, but being an average Singaporean, I am proud of our leaders.

Grateful pap supporter,

Say hello to Maslow’s hierarchy soon enough.

What you have described, was probably the core of the Singapore dream for the post-war generation. This is merely the foundation, and expected base situation for the generations to come, and the ones who are stepping forth into the corporate world at the moment, do not take kindly to being told that that’s all they should ever hope to attain.

We do not merely think of the almighty dollar, we are equally interested in self-actualisation. If the ground is not conducive for self-actualisation, people will either migrate, or attempt to change it.

Wow, I’ve been getting alot of responses. Where to start:

Singapore Spirit: “I believe you are one of the trendy, cool young adult, probably not married yet.”
-wrong, I’m married and have a daughter in elementary school.

patriot: “Amanda maybe a Singapore Civil Servant based in New York, USA.”
– no, I have not taken a single cent from the government, not for education , and not for employment overseas. Funny hor, Singaporeans think anytime someone speaks a positive opinion of the government they must be a civil servant/ pap member. Such a mentality of “us” against “the government” is very divisive. You should support the government as it works in the best interest of the Singapore people.

Patriot : “Why does she choose to work away from Singapore? Because there is less stress in New York? Talk is definitely cheap.”
– Why? Family, family, family. I met my husband in the states. Surely it is not wrong to migrate because of that? Anyway, if I had asked him to Singapore, you people would have said “ah , another dirty FT”. Patriot, singaporeans are impossible to please, aren’t they?

Tiredman: “please convince me why our Prime Minister / ministers’ pay is higher than the America’s president, Bush’s salary?”
– that depends on the market rate, in the States, as there is a large population which results in a great supply of would be politicians, we do not need to pay more money to attract talented people.
– Furthermore, the Singapore government is very politically competent. Much more so than the democratic / republican party. Why is this? Singapore is a free open democracy with elections every 5-6 years. Yet, despite this opportunity , the government has managed to secure the mandate of the people every election. If you can secure the mandate of the people for every election for so many decades, it means that the ruling party is very politically competent and that the people support them (or at least know that they are better than the rest of the competition). this cannot be said of the US parties, which flip flop every 8 years or so.
– In other words, unless you think that the Singapore government doesn’t count the election votes properly, then you should accept that the Singapore government has been doing very well. Furthermore, if you believe that the Singapore people are a smart people, which I do, then the only logical reason how the ruling party can hold on to power is that the well-reasoned, well-considered and objective opinion of the singapore electorate has decided that the PAP governments policies, plans and vision is the most suitable for our tiny island of 4 million Singaporeans.

Dear Grateful PAP supporter,

I agree that the pap has done alot for us. but that’s been their argument all along. that because they’ve done so much, they have a right to govern us. but is this really true? I’m not a pap hater. i don’t hate PAP. i pity them (to steal a line from Dr. Chee).

they’ve certainly brought us a long way, but i really wonder how much further they can bring us. please bear in mind this is a country and not a corporation. run a country like a corporation and you’ll have problems. in a corporation, unhappy workers leave. in a country, what do unhappy citizens do?

IMO, some key failures that PAP have are:
1. failure to keep in touch with ground sentiments
2. lack of leadership. e.g. do not lead by example.
3. failure to recognize the true importance of the opposition and the arrogance to think that they are the most capable, to think that they are the only option.
4. failure to realise that singaporeans are growing up.

If they are really as capable and well-received as they think they are, then open up the press! stop controlling the media! stop oppressing the opposition! stop redrawing electoral boundaries willynilly, creating absurd GRCs! stop having walk-overs! stop suppressing dissent! what are they so afraid of? show the citizens what you are made of and we will vote you in.

I love this country, but i feel if the pap government don’t “wake up their blardi idea” soon, we won’t last as long as we wish. being so entrenched with no danger of being unelected makes them complacent. suppressing opposition such that we have no viable “back up government” is dangerous. power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is so true.

Dear Amanda,

I enjoy your alternative views:), but here’s my take on why the government gets elected every election.

some factors which helps them to stay in power (and this is just a rudimentary and incomplete analysis)..
1. GRCs allow them to retain seats by virtue of walk-overs. there just aren’t enough oppositions to field 6man teams!
2. strict campaigning rules, strict rules on donations to political parties, draconian laws on defamation (and never afraid to use it!). all these invariably inconvenience the opposition more than the incumbent.
3. controlled media paints the opposition in a bad bad bad light. dissent is discouraged, even punished.
4. re-drawing of boundaries, increasing GRC size.

ultimately, only a minor fraction of the population gets to vote. pap is assured of staying as government even with the election! perhaps it is more telling how MP Low and MP Chiam has managed to retain their seats despite PAP using hundreds of millions of dollars to entice the residents with their “upgrading”.

“then the only logical reason how the ruling party can hold on to power is that the well-reasoned, well-considered and objective opinion of the singapore electorate has decided that the PAP governments policies, plans and vision is the most suitable for our tiny island of 4 million Singaporeans.” is just too narrow a view.

amanda, I think your reasoning behind PAP’s electoral success fails to take some other considerations into account.

You assert that winning the election implies political competence, but in the current situation where there is only one party with enough manpower to make up the govt, competence is not necessary to win. Obtaining the mandate at every election looks good on paper, but ultimately it is the legitimacy of this mandate that becomes questionable in the absence of viable competition. On top of that, the spectre of GRC walkovers, gerrymandering (re-drawing electoral boundaries), perceived manipulation of the judiciary and Elections Dept will always cast a shadow on this mandate. If you want to see an example of a hollow claim to the people’s mandate, look no further than the recent happenings with our neighbours up north.

This is not to say that they are not competent, but an F1 champion can’t really call himself an expert driver if he was competing on the course against others riding bicycles, even if it were Lance Armstrong.

Dear Amanda,

Yes, so far, so good. But a track record, although a good marker for something you want now, doesn’t mean that it will be relevant in the future. It remains to see if they deliver or not. As to Singapore being a free, open democracy…well, so it says lah. I don’t know if it’s really true, but a free, open democracy wouldn’t need threats, would it? A free, open democracy would work hard to garner the people’s mandate, instead of making threats, and i don’t mean Progress Packages!

After all, it says in the pledge, ‘to build a democratic society.’ Which implies that one day, we will be democratic, but not yet. The government has managed to secure the mandate of the people so far, but the mandate is slipping away slowly. The election statistics would tell you that, and refer to the above paragraph.

Singaporeans hard to please? Of course. Singaporeans who were easy to please would be what the government would want anyway. Furthermore, i wouldn’t trade quantity for objectivity. Statistically, it seems objective. But every man’s subjective view probably would tell you another story. An objective view, statistically, can only be obtained if you interviewed every citizen and PR in Singapore and then calculated the percentages. With Singapore being well-known for a culture of fear, objectivity could be imagined as a propaganda tool. Statistics in the elections LOOK objective, but they don’t have to be. How many walkovers were there would be a starting point for you.

A country gets the Govt it deserves. Until and unless there are good quality folks willing to do things really differently and organise themselves to work the ground and participate to put forth a different voice, we are left with what we have.

All of you clamouring that there should be a better opposition — are *you* prepared to be that better opposition? What would *you* do? Not prepared to put up the fight and with the scrutiny? Well, there you have it. What do you think politicians in the US have to go through? Every minute detail of their lives is scrutinised — did they ever hire a nanny who was a non-documented alien? Did they ever smoke pot or snort cocaine or have an affair 20 years ago? Well, despite all that scrutiny, there are enough people who want to walk the talk, and not just talk.

And by the way, what *is* the talk? This and that is not good enough, or is a bad idea. Well, do you have a better one?

We can clamour for more — but its like nuclear power in the U.S. — “great idea, yeah its safe, but not in my state/county”.

So think through and assess — what would you *really* do differently. Charge less ERP? Sure, nice populist measure. But where would that leave our roads which are already crowded?

Give less COEs? Sure, but then prices will go up and the grumble will be, why so expensive for a piece of paper. Stop all ERP and COE measures? Sure, then say welcome to systemic gridlock islandwide.

Lower GST? Sure, but then sooner or later income taxes will have to go up. Pay less for top Govt political appointees and/or civil servants? Sure, but then let’s see who is willing to fill those jobs. Do we have a sufficient pool of talent that there will *always* be public-minded, good quality citizens willing to take (in that scenario) lower-paying jobs to work for the Govt instead of in the private sector?

The problem is not that S’poreans have learnt to clamour for *more*. There’s nothing wrong with that. The problem is that S’poreans (at least the vocal grumblers on forums) want more, but they want more handouts/goodies/guidance/freebies *from the Govt*. You want more and aspire to reach greater heights and can pull your own wagon, go do it. Make your own fortune. Don’t keep whining that Govt ain’t doing it for you. That’s the thing that sets the Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Sim Wong Hoos apart from the SME owner that opens yet another retail outlet in Sim Lim or Funan selling the same stuff as his neighbour and competing on price in a low-margin retail environment.

I find it strange that there are so many negative opinions about the government aka PAP, and yet each time the elections come around, PAP won by a healthy margin!

The opposition rallies attracted large crowds, and louder applauses, compared to PAP’s. The ruling party even had to rely on supporters brought in by buses from elsewhere, supplied with packed food and drinks, just to make up the number.

YET, when the votes are counted, they emerged winners!
Some blamed the GRC, the lack of suitable opposition candidates, the redrawing of constituencies, the walk overs etc….etc.

Surely, if that was the case, there should be significant wins in all the constituencies where there are reliable oppositiions. Or at the very least a lot of spoilt votes to send the message to the PAP. Do we have them? No.

So, if there is something wrong with the way Singapore is governed, isn’t that our own fault? We complained so much……… yet we do not want to take a risk? Why? We complained so much about ministers’ salaries, yet we prefer our children to be bankers, businessmen, doctors, engineers etc………earning fat pay, but without the adverse downside that comes with being a public figure.

We all know that complaining vehemently here is NOT going to change anything except ventilating our anger. Perhaps many here who feel strongly about the matter should consider doing something, like being an opposition leader. From what was written, I’m sure they are very well educated and qualified.

What about me? Well, I believe if I cannot walk the walk, and talk the talk, it is best I keep quiet. :-)

amanda,

The MM already said he doesnt believe in democracy based on the Western, esp.US model. His brand of ism is paternalism, or guided democracy. Ministers are not servants of the people, but mini-gods who cannot be impugned, insulted, slighted or mocked. Compared this to the days when he was a lone Assemblyman in the opposition bench, crying out loud and waxing about real democratic freedoms and railing against repression, which he said became easier like illicit sex, the second time around. That was when he wasnt in power. But when he captured power, everything changed. Are you short of memory? He consoildated his power, buttonholed the ground, changed the laws so that no UK law lords can outwit him in court, gerrymandeered constituency lines, changed election rules to create GRCs so that only the PAP can fill teams for them, got rid of troublesome Press (Singapore Herald, Eastern Sun etc), troublesome solicitor generals, put up ex-Special Branch Directors to become newspaper chiefs, fixed all the Opposition by libel suits and bankrupting themout of the electoral circuits, assasinated the characters of people who were inconvenient or embarrassing politically (Devan Nair, CheeSJ, Gomez et al), erected opaque walls around their governance, thumbed his nose at Parliament to which he is supposed to be accountable, …in general, lord of the Earth !

More than 50 years ago, the British and the Lim Yew Hock and Ong Eng Guan govts allowed LKY the freedom of speech to stand up in parliament and railed against repression and spoke eloquently on human rights. 50 years on, the same LKY denigrated all the people who fought for democracy and freedom and rights, called them fools, lightheaded madmen, psychopaths, even imprisoned many of them or pushed them to self-exile.

Can you Amanda seriously think that after 50 years, we are better today than before? What progress have we made towards a world class city with Swiss std of living and advanced nation status?

yes, depending on what perspective you use PAP’s policies are very adequate and fair.

Goodgrief,

I find you very heartless. You seems to like singaporeans to be in a sorry state. You are thinking the high ground but no moral high ground. Ask yourself, the poor owns car? The poor pays income tax? The poor pays GST and highly inflated food items. The high inflation is killing the poor mind you! At these times, the gahmen needs to do more not asking more more pay increments. Please show some heart and if you dont have at least dont sprout your PAPPY propaganda here.

FG

Fever Guy,

There is no night without day, no white without black. I don’t *like* for S’poreans (however many there may be) to be in a sorry state. But I do not accept that the situation is as dire or as widespread as TOC states. Notice how the discourse has changed — first, logic is invoked — the PAP Govt is doing everything wrong. When I ask what naysayers would do differently, I’m now told that “its heartless”.

High inflation — its a worldwide problem — how would you address it differently? Whatever you say, regardless of whether or not they deserve it, the $40m that is paid (supposedly) for political leadership, is not going to change anything even if it were reduced to $0.

You seem to assume that the Govt is somehow responsible for highliy inflated food items. Is that the case? My friends in the UK say that a packet of some food has gone from GBP17 to GBP40 within a year. It’s a worldwide problem that US$140 barrels of oil contributes to as well.

Once again, tell me, what would you do differently, apart from giving handouts. You want the PAP Govt to do more. What? You want me to show some heart? Talk is cheap. What exactly do you want to see?

Dear People,

Some of you talk as though we have no right to criticise the Government ! Once again the Government subsidy mentality come through.

Get this straight once and for all – the Government serves the people and NOT the other way around.

And yes – we have the right to ask for subsidies given how much we spend on the Government via direct and indirect taxation like GST, ERP etc etc.

I have no qualms asking for subsidies given that our Government is prepared to lose billions in bad invesdtments. Better for them to spend that money on us !

No one said you can’t question the government.

Singaporeans should be extremely concern about the lack of informations about their national wealth being managed by the pap government.

1. How much are there, non outside the circle around Lee Kuan Yew know. Even some cabinet ministers not in the inner cicle are not fully aware of the exact amount. Remember, even the late President Ong Teng Cheong complained that he could not get information on this.
2. What is the yearly profit and the exact yearly returns on these investments? We are only told that it is about 8% over a period of 20+ years. This is not good enough. As shareholders, we have the right to know in which year the investments made what amount.
3. The return on our national wealth is currently not included as an income item in the budget. This is against the IMF rules. The IMF has taken up with the pap government but they refused to go along the IMF rules. If these returns are included in the income, then every year the Singapore budget surplus will be humongous. Proceeds from the sale of land are also not included. Last year this amounted to over $10 billion. So the pap government has been hiding the huge buget surplus of over $50 billions every year from Singaporeans. Where these surpluses were channed to, only they know. This is dangerous.

So you see, Singapore has more than enough resources to meet the needs of Singaporeans for a decent life. We may not have oil and mineral resouces but these national wealth is more than sufficient. Why Lee Kuan Yew refused to use
these huge surplus income to help Singaporeans is a real mystery. The pap government has more than enough resources to help Singaporeans and yet they are not doing it. Singaporeans should ask the pap mps and ministers why. They should think of this in the next GE. The pap government has taken Singaporeans
for granted which is why they are not willing to help Singaporeans acheive a decent life. Time to take back some power from the pap government.

But why should the singapore government help Singaporeans by giving out freebies? Just because it is possible does not make it necessary. For example, GIC has enough money to turn each and everyone of you into millionaires. Would you support such a measure? Perhaps. But can you reasonable argue that such a plan is in the best interest of the nation? Probably not.

So , to keep a long story short, just because it can be done, does not mean it has to be done. Yes, you are right that the government is supposed to look after Singaporeans. But you neglect the fact that the Singapore government is primarily supposed to look after the National Interest. It is not supposed to look after the nitty gritty of Singapore life. Such a government would be too domineering to be successful. Rather, it should put in broadly scope plans that seek to maximize the collective success of Singapore as a nation rather than of individual people.

Amanda – well said. The curious thing is that these hand-me-out proponents are saying, on the one hand, Govt is doing too much, taking too much. On the other hand, they are saying, Govt must do more, give out more. Either you want a hands-off Govt that leaves people to sink/swim on their own, or you want a cradle-to-grave micro-managed existence.

Somehow, no one is paying attention to what happens eventually to a subsidy-based economy — just think of the pain that Indonesians and Malaysians felt when, eventually, fuel subsidies had to be reduced. The history of the modern world is replete with examples of how subsidies lead to the crutch mentality and incredible difficulty in eventually needing to reduce the subsidy.

Also, I find it interesting that no one has said *anything* about how they would do things differently, *apart* from saying, let’s hand out some goodies. Lots of goodies. How long do they reckon this will sustain us? No one answers these *tough* questions.

As for “wasted” investments — it comes with any portfolio that you must have some hits and some misses. If we can always bet on the right counters and the right investors then we would all be Warren Buffets.

BTW, I wonder how many here remember Harbans Singh? He was an opposition politician who used to argue for free-this-and-free-that. Free bus rides etc. People lapped it up at rallies but always knew better at the ballot box. S’poreans are not dumb. Saying that you can give this and that free… is simply not sustainable, and whilst it makes for good crowd pleasers, it will not make good government.

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what they would differently. The key things raised – ERP/COE/GST/subsidies … how would *you* do it differently if you were in Govt?

Amanda says:

“Rather, it should put in broadly scope plans that seek to maximize the collective success of Singapore as a nation rather than of individual people.”

Can you please explain how is it possible to maximize the collective success of Singapore without maximizing the success of individual people?

Dear People,

When you have zero accountability, no freedom of speech and assembly, no checks and balances and no transparency – it won’t be long before an abuse of the system creeps in.

Power corrupts. Today the Government may be clean – but how about tomorrow when some people are no longer around ?

We have every right to question the Government. The Government is answerable to the people.

I do not see anything wrong with spending a few billion on subsidies – especially since the Government is prepared to lose many billions more in bad investments overseas. The Government should spend on the people first before going ahead to invest billions in risky and bad investments !!

Where is the transparency in all of this ?

There is a clear different between maximizing the success of individual people and maximizing the success of Singapore. A simple example – imagine that you are a contract attempting build a square shaped brick wall. You can take a look at the macroscopic picture and build a square shaped wall directly. Does that mean that because you have to build a square shaped wall means you need square shaped bricks? Perhaps, that would work. But you can also build a square shaped wall with rectangular bricks or triangular bricks. Hence, there is a difference between the whole and the individual.

the government should take care of the national interest rather than individual people. After all, the government is not your papa or mama.

Dear amanda,

Who defines the national interest ? Is it in the national interest for the reserves to be shrouded in secrecy ?

Where is the transparency ?

I still stand by my beliefs – that if the Government is prepared to lose billions in bad investments – then it must also be prepared to spend a few on subsidies.

Good grief

>>
The curious thing is that these hand-me-out proponents are saying, on the one hand, Govt is doing too much, taking too much. On the other hand, they are saying, Govt must do more, give out more. Either you want a hands-off Govt that leaves people to sink/swim on their own, or you want a cradle-to-grave micro-managed existence.
>>

I guess the sentiments here i not in demanding handouts. Rather, it is about lightening the burdens of ordinary Singaporeans. Collect less tax when times are bad so have some cuts on petrol duties. Why not? Remember, it is NOT SUBSIDIES we are talking about, BUT LESS TAX BURDENS. Getting things at the MARKET PRICE, get it?

A good government needs to know the right balance of intervention. With the talent that we have, if they can’t find the right balance, who can? After all, they are paid well. Heard of the term “positive non-intervention”? Intervene when there is a need, leave it alone when it is better to do so.

Using the “subsidies” nightmare is just a political bogeyman to divert attention from the right issue: Less tax burden. Instead, welfarism was thrown out as a convenient strawman to divert attention. When has lessening tax burdens become a form of “subsidies”? Even Milton Friedman and Frederich von Hayek would be shocked at your distorted economic theories if they were still alive.

If you still don’t know the differences between taxes and subsidies, try purchasing an elementary economics textbook available at all major bookstores island-wide.

But Dr Syed Alwi,

you do not even have a plan of what you would do if you had the power to give out subsidies and full control of the singapore reserves. Your plans are so vague . They are as pointless as some US citizens saying ” We should bring democracy to iraq” without any plan of doing so. I mean, sure , sounds great, but where’s the plan? One does not just say , let’s make life better, let’s give subsidies without any plan.

Dear good grief,

First ask the government to account for our reserves publicly. Today there is NO transparency.

Based on transparent accounts – then we can talk about how much to spend on subsidies versus how much to invest overseas.

I still believe that if the government is willing to lose billions in bad investments – then it must also be prepared to spend a few on subsidies.

Deasr amanda,

They are not my plans. You should ask the people of Singapore for permission to deal with the reserves.

The people of Singapore should decide on the national interest……..not some individual.

Good grief

>>
I am still waiting for someone to tell me what they would differently. The key things raised – ERP/COE/GST/subsidies … how would *you* do it differently if you were in Govt?
>>

Make it mandatory for proceeds of ERP to be spent ONLY on improving the public transportation system. That will ensure that ERP money goes to the right place.

GST: If you claim you are heading for deficits but you got a huge surplus instead, i leave it for you to decide the argument for the GST hike. Tax rebates for Singaporeans perhaps? Exemption of GST for purchasing basic subsidies (limit it to housebrand rice, sugar, cooking oil, how much can a rich man really eat?)

Are these taken up so far? No.

If you have the whole team of well-trained bureaucrats and technocrats to help you craft policies but an ordinary folk can come up with better policies, i wonder about the justifications for their pay then.

That’s why your rant above is only an ad hominem fallacy.

Dear TOC,

You have seen so far, interesting exchanges in varying views in all the controversial matters that had been published so far.

Just a suggestion. Will it be good for your team to consider making a summary publication of the issues raised and in it provide the active concerned citizens a bird eye’s view of the positive and negative feedback?

Obviously, it has to be absolutely done with impartial view to eradicate any suspicion of being accused of bias. So, you may have to published alonside your criterion related to it’s subject matter to summarize the nayes and aye.

I personally think this will not only help new reader like me (I only started to come online TOC no more than 2 months ago) to have a better understanding, it will help to formulate a consensus that may be used as submission to government agencies to seriously looked at these statistics and hopefully address it?

Thank you.

“Make it mandatory for proceeds of ERP to be spent ONLY on improving the public transportation system. That will ensure that ERP money goes to the right place.”

So I guess income tax should only be spent on improving income? no use of it for national defence, workfare, etc.

and I guess that GST should be used to increase goods and sales?

Good grief

>>
As for “wasted” investments — it comes with any portfolio that you must have some hits and some misses. If we can always bet on the right counters and the right investors then we would all be Warren Buffets.
>>

Shareholders would have annual reports from those who manage their funds. They can fire those who manage their portfolios at will if they think they are not up to the mark.

In sovereign wealth funds, we have citizen shareholders. Care to enlighten us the powers citizen shareholders have? We are not well-read enough to know it so please enlighten us, thanks.

Dear amanda

Tell the government to open their books first ! Transparency NOW !!

Singaporeans by right live in a democracy.
Their decisions had determine who runs the show.
Everyone is responsible.
I admit i am responsible.
I will improve myself and be more responsible for my decisions in future.

Amanda

>>
So I guess income tax should only be spent on improving income? no use of it for national defence, workfare, etc.

and I guess that GST should be used to increase goods and sales?
>>

But reason why ERP exists was to ease congestion. Isn’t it right that its proceeds goes only into improving public transport?

By the way, the LTA chief MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT ERP IS “NOT MEANT TO BE A REVENUE GENERATING TOOL.”

I wonder if you read the papers.

Dear TOC

You have seen so far, interesting exchanges in varying views in all the controversial matters that had been published so far.

Just a suggestion. Will it be good for your team to consider making a summary publication of the issues raised and in it provide the active concerned citizens a bird eye’s view of the positive and negative feedback?

Obviously, it has to be absolutely done with impartial view to eradicate any suspicion of being accused of bias. So, you may have to publish alongside your criterion related to its subject matter to summarize the nayes and aye.

I personally think this will not only help new reader like me (I only started to come online TOC no more than 2 months ago) to have a better understanding, it will help to formulate a consensus that may be used as submission to government agencies to seriously looked at these statistics and hopefully address it?

Thank you.

Amanda says:

“There is a clear different between maximizing the success of individual people and maximizing the success of Singapore. A simple example – imagine that you are a contract attempting build a square shaped brick wall. You can take a look at the macroscopic picture and build a square shaped wall directly. Does that mean that because you have to build a square shaped wall means you need square shaped bricks? Perhaps, that would work. But you can also build a square shaped wall with rectangular bricks or triangular bricks. Hence, there is a difference between the whole and the individual.”

Yes, I am quite familiar in the concept of emergence.

However, I think that you have raised an inappropriate analogy. I am not aware of anybody who would characterise a goal such as “success” as a shape like a triangle or a square.

On top of that, I know a little bit about brick wall construction and I am not aware of any brick wall in human history that was constructed using triangle-shaped bricks.

You now state that “the government should take care of the national interest rather than individual people.”

Can you clarify how the government can take care of the national interest without taking care of individual people?

Amanda

>>
you do not even have a plan of what you would do if you had the power to give out subsidies and full control of the singapore reserves. Your plans are so vague.
>>

1) Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that?

2) Does an ordinary folk have the whole team of bureaucrats and technocrats to craft policies?

3) Does an ordinary folk have THE PRIVILEGE OF INFORMATION?

In short, this is another ad hominem fallacy which does not help in any meaningful discussion.

Dearest amanda,

tell the world, you support the idea that investments need not be as transparent as norway. say it loud and clear. then, justify your answer.

—>By the way, the LTA chief MADE IT VERY CLEAR THAT ERP IS “NOT MEANT TO BE A REVENUE GENERATING TOOL.”

So what? Education is meant to increase a person’s knowledge and skill. Does that mean that education cannot have as a side purpose of improving a person’s character?

Therefore, even if ERP is not meant to specifically increase revenue, that does not mean that if that were incidental revenue the government cannot use it for other things.

>>
So what? Education is meant to increase a person’s knowledge and skill. Does that mean that education cannot have as a side purpose of improving a person’s character?

Therefore, even if ERP is not meant to specifically increase revenue, that does not mean that if that were incidental revenue the government cannot use it for other things.
>>

Thanks for agreeing that ERP is not meant to be a revenue generating tool.

It begs the question that if there is so much room forimprovement in the public transport system in this country, why can it be reserved only for transportation improvements purposes? After all, the ERP is to ease congestion. By investing the ERP money solely on public transport, we are trying to buttress the success of the ERP’s objectives.

Are you saying that investing in public transportation using ERP money is inappropriate then?

If ERP is used to fund other stuff, it WILL become a revenue generating tool which the LTA rejects this notion.

But Amanda syas that why can’t ERP money be diverted for other purposes? But she agrees that it is not revenue generating tool? Self-contradiction?

I guess Amanda has a lot of questions to answer.

1) Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that? No, So trust the million dollar minister then.

2) Does an ordinary folk have the whole team of bureaucrats and technocrats to craft policies? No, therefore the minister probably has examined all options and has arrived at the best option for Singaporeans in general.

3) Does an ordinary folk have THE PRIVILEGE OF INFORMATION? To some extent, but certain things need not be declared in the interest of national interest. For example, Singapore need not disclose strategic investments. Nor does Singapore have to disclose the exact locations and contingency of the Singapore Military.

Amanda

>>

1) Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that? No, So trust the million dollar minister then.

2) Does an ordinary folk have the whole team of bureaucrats and technocrats to craft policies? No, therefore the minister probably has examined all options and has arrived at the best option for Singaporeans in general.

3) Does an ordinary folk have THE PRIVILEGE OF INFORMATION? To some extent, but certain things need not be declared in the interest of national interest. For example, Singapore need not disclose strategic investments. Nor does Singapore have to disclose the exact locations and contingency of the Singapore Military.
>>

So what’s with your criticism of others being armchair critics who cannot come up with clear better options?

When you have all the tools and resources at your disposal, you should be coming up with better policies. The argument about critics not being able to come up with better alternatives is a non sequitur here given the discrepancy of resources, tools and information.

A black hole argument indeed.

Amanda

>>

1) Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that? No, So trust the million dollar minister then.

2) Does an ordinary folk have the whole team of bureaucrats and technocrats to craft policies? No, therefore the minister probably has examined all options and has arrived at the best option for Singaporeans in general.

3) Does an ordinary folk have THE PRIVILEGE OF INFORMATION? To some extent, but certain things need not be declared in the interest of national interest. For example, Singapore need not disclose strategic investments. Nor does Singapore have to disclose the exact locations and contingency of the Singapore Military.
>>

A good case indeed for “immunity against all forms of criticism” .

Amanda

>>

1) Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that? No, So trust the million dollar minister then.

2) Does an ordinary folk have the whole team of bureaucrats and technocrats to craft policies? No, therefore the minister probably has examined all options and has arrived at the best option for Singaporeans in general.

3) Does an ordinary folk have THE PRIVILEGE OF INFORMATION? To some extent, but certain things need not be declared in the interest of national interest. For example, Singapore need not disclose strategic investments. Nor does Singapore have to disclose the exact locations and contingency of the Singapore Military.
>>

Try telling your boss that he is an armchair critic of your work when he paid you a good salary, give you all the supporting staff you need and arrange all the possible logistical support for you.

I guess in that scenario, you would think that you are entitled to be immune from all forms of criticism from your boss.

Amanda says:

“Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that? No, So trust the million dollar minister then.”

Yes, trust is very important. Not sure about other people, but personally I don’t gauge the abilities of any person by their salary alone – other factors like performance and track record play a more significant role.

Also important is the ability to think clearly, and articulate a plan concisely and persuasively.

For example if a person claims that you can build a square wall with triangular bricks, or that a government can take care of the national interest without taking care of individual people, it’s a good practice to ask for further clarifications.

Using this approach, we can find out if these ideas have any merit, or are simply a confused jumble of words. The ability to conceptualize ideas of merit and turn these into successful projects helps to build a rock solid foundation of trust in society.

sure, you are entitled you own opinion.

If you wish to attack personally, please go ahead. Words across cyberspace can’t hurt me.

I have been following some of Dr Syed Alwi’s arguments on various topics and most of the time, I don’t agree with his approach. However, on this topic, I think he has a valid point, which even Amanda, a seemingly staunch supporter of the PAP, has been avoiding. Here is Alwi’s evaded point:

Posted by Alwi on June 29th, 2008 12.08 pm
“Dear Amanda, Tell the government to open their books first ! Transparency NOW!!”

Fully agree with Alwi on that point. You can argue that the PAP did this and that, for the good of this and that. You can argue that Singaporeans are fortunate. You can argue that it is worse in other places.

As long as there is NO TRANSPARENCY, for all we know, the government may be siphoning billions of OUR MONEY for themselves. Look at who are the ones sitting on the board of directors of the GIC, Temasek etc.

Government says that the CPF monies are not touched. Without transparency, HOW DO WE KNOW?

Oh wait, Lim Leng Hiong, are you a doctor?

But the questions is – is there no transparency? In my opinion, Singapore’s government has quite a fair degree of transparency. Do you think that America is a transparent country? perhaps, but not all the time. Often, citizens, have to press the administration for information. I don’t think Singapore is that far off the “market rate” of liberal democracies with regards to informational dissemination and control.

Amanda

>>
Do you think that America is a transparent country? perhaps, but not all the time. Often, citizens, have to press the administration for information.
>>

The sort of usual diversion from the real topic. The cliche justification of “If the US sin, so can we!”. Is it constructive? I guess not.

Anyway, i think they are transparent enough such that Nixon has to call it a day or his dishonesty.

You seemed to agree that they have a check and balance system to be able to do that.

Well done Amanda.

yes we do. you can take a class action lawsuit to challenge the government’s actions. Furthermore, the judiciary has the process of judicial review to reject laws on the basis of unconstitutionality.

I guess if you feel so strongly about the Singapore’s government being “bad”, you could try taking them to court. Although, I think the “pap-haters” on TOC are probably the minority in Singapore, since as mentioned earlier, the PAP have been winning elections by landslides.

Amanda

>>
yes we do. you can take a class action lawsuit to challenge the government’s actions. Furthermore, the judiciary has the process of judicial review to reject laws on the basis of unconstitutionality.

I guess if you feel so strongly about the Singapore’s government being “bad”, you could try taking them to court. Although, I think the “pap-haters” on TOC are probably the minority in Singapore, since as mentioned earlier, the PAP have been winning elections by landslides.
>>

I guess you derive satisfaction in using highly partisan terms like about “bad”, “haters”. But if that gives you satisfaction, that’s your freedom. Enjoy the political labeling and intolerance.

A toast to your partisanship and political sensationalism!

Amanda says:

“sure, you are entitled you own opinion.

If you wish to attack personally, please go ahead. Words across cyberspace can’t hurt me.”

Is this response for me or for No Need To Good Grief?

Amanda – class action against the government?

How?

class actions : For those 40 years and above, the govt has instituted CPF Life. When we worked, the agreement was to release our CPF at age 55. Now we get compulsory shifting of goal post. Can we get back to the table and release the CPF back to us at 55? Sure Citibank and UBS are long term investments, that is what our CPF Life annuity is intended?

I agree with you Amanda, even in New York, USA Country of the Free etc – there are homeless and destitutes, even people on the dole lead a miserable life.
Singapore will not be any different.

But to continue as it is for Singaporeans now, without change is also not a viable option. Please, even complaining about inflation lands one with a police record… Amanda, are you proud of that?

Amanda,

>>In my opinion, Singapore’s government has quite a fair degree of transparency.
>>

That still does not address the issue which Alwi put up, “Tell the government to open their books first ! Transparency NOW!!”

>>Do you think that America is a transparent country? perhaps, but not all the time.
>>

Is that justification for PAP’s non-transparency? If yes, please elaborate. If no, you have just put up red herring to detract the issue of lack of transparency in Singapore.

>>Often, citizens, have to press the administration for information. I don’t think Singapore is that far off the “market rate” of liberal democracies with regards to informational dissemination and control.
>>

How does that address that lack of transparency of what is going on with our public funds?

Dear People & Amanda

I am NOT saying that the Government is corrupt etc. All I said was that – if the Government is prepared to risk and lose billions of public funds in investments – then it should first be prepared to spend a few on subsidies for the public.

There is hardly any transparency in Singapore when it comes to the reserves and the GLC’s. To me it seems reasonable that if you are willing to take great risks with public money – that you should also spend a bit on subsidies for the people.

Look – for goodness sake – it is the Government that is answerable to the people and not the other way around. Nowadays it seems that we – the people – are subsidising the Government’s mistakes and investments and salary. It is as though the Government has a subsidy mentality when it comes to our money. That they have a blank cheque to spend it as they wish. This must stop now.

Why ? Because we now live in an era of food shortages and petrol crises. The good old days of the 1970’s and 1980’s are over. Singapore has got to move to a new political paradigm.

whatever they say we need to accept. whatever they give , we take . we dun even have a say or a voice to comment

Dear Amanda,
“wrong, I’m married and have a daughter in elementary school”

Why did you choose to be a quitter? I assume your daughter is studying in America. Why not send her back to Singapore for education. You should support P@P education system. Since you support P@P, why not do your part and make your daughter a Singaporean. This will help to boast Singapore’s population.

‘no, I have not taken a single cent from the government, not for education , and not for employment overseas.”

Your choice to leaving Singapore tells me that you are a supporter of P@P and not Singapore. I don’t understand why your action does not show what you are telling me. If you choose to leave Singapore, isn’t it obvious that you should not take a single cent from the Singaporeans.

“that depends on the market rate, in the States, as there is a large population which results in a great supply of would be politicians, we do not need to pay more money to attract talented people.”
Come on serving the people is from the heart. What is market rate going to do here? Do you mean there are cheap supplies of politicians in America? I don’t understand how you relates civil service to economic theory. So, can Singapore mass produce politicians? You mean the G deliberately not setting up education institution to increase the demand needs of politician?

“Furthermore, the Singapore government is very politically competent”

Lets discuss about Competency.
GoodGrief on June 29th, 2008 2.04 am says:
“grumble about GST all you want, but find me any other country where 70% of the people do not pay income tax.”

Yes, we see economic success. How do you describe economic success? The main duty for the government is to lift its people out of poverty. Yes, most of us has a roof on top of our head and earn a decent salary. However, has the G does something so that most Singaporeans are eligible to pay tax? If 70% of the people do not pay tax, that means most Singaporeans do not have an earning of $20,000 per annum. The G does not seem to be able to do this. What constitute to the continual of the economic success? Is it the foreigners? Sorry, I only care about the well being of our fellow Singaporeans.

Democratic? Don’t make me laugh. You compare America’s democratic environment to Singapore’s. Come on do not make fun of America.

“yes, depending on what perspective you use PAP’s policies are very adequate and fair.”
You are not in living Singapore, like SM has said before, ….when i apply that.. you are more like a quitter to me. So, what position are you in to comment on adequate and fair?

““the government should take care of the national interest rather than individual people. After all, the government is not your papa or mama.”
Oh I see, so we are not the sons and daughter of Singapore. No wonder you choose to leave Singapore. You don’t want your son to serve the nation. Am I right? So, tell me why I should serve the country when Singapore is not my papa or mama. We serve the country and the country has the rights to look after the interest of our fellow Singaporeans. This should be the best way to build up the love for the country. Why are you disrupting the rights which every Singaporeans are fighting for? Who are you? You are just another person who chooses to leave Singapore. Now, you are insulting thousands of soldiers that spend their precious 2.5 years to 2 years of their life while you just simply states that we are not the son and daughter of our own country.
The above comment is stated on the basis of G = country. Thank You.

I have actually decided to sideline myself from any further commenting but I just could not put myself to it. This issue is just as serious as the Human Rights issues that I hold dearly to my heart. My stand is quite clear as I had already done one too many in Kin Lian’s article.

What a flurry of exchanges, never short of drama and some even resorting to personal innuendoes. There is also no short of trace of discriminating remarks as well whether intentional or unintentional. Just because the views expressed are not to your personal liking or believes, it is just beyond any civic minded people to chastise a person as if this person has been living in the woods. Very sad indeed for a nation, if this has any indication of the maturity state of its people or was it just blinded by the anguish feelings and may be refuses to accept the fact that reality is never ideal in all cases. Using nation to nation comparison, people to people comparison and what not seem to let you ponder, does it really address the root of the problem? It is quite apparent as well when reading such arguments made, comparatively, it is also quite selective in either side of the view point expressed. There will never be an end to this form of discussion resulting with an applicable resolution to propose to the governing body for consideration and what good does it really do to issues on hand?

Dear TOC,

What was the primary objective of raising these issues?

I would really like to hear it from the horse mouth, Andrew, Kin Lian (in particular as you are in the capacity then to make a proposed change at least to those employed under you) and the likes, what are your thoughts. Since you guys have initiated this discussion if I may term it and certainly it is not too wild for me to assume that you would like to take these very serious issues further. Give a more defined resolution in your personal capacity as an intellectual to these teething issues making the assumption that you are at the helm and why did you think this will work for the best interest of the people. I certaily think it is appropriate for you guys to be a liitle more active in participating. Or are you guys going to accuse me of being a PAP backbencher since they are currently the governing party? You know that fear factor that is so deep rooted in most Singaporeans?

Just to clarify again since I was challenged to my perosnal capacity in previous post by Kin Lian. I have no association with any party or parties commenting in this blog nor am I associated with any political party or parties. I am also not a government or public servant or the top 20% of the population of Singapore.

amanda 29 June 2008 11.23am.
“that the Singapore government is primarily supposed to look after the National Interest”. Unquote.

Amanda, can You kindly tell us what is ‘National Interest’ and what is the collective success of Singapore as a nation? Please elaborate but not with the square wall analogy as I got very confused by it.

Amanda; to You, everything in Singapore seems superior to that of USA; be it government, food, transport, education and healthcare, in short, everything. Time to come back to Singapore with your family Amanda, Singapore needs You!

patriot.

amanda, are you aware that Lee Kuan Yew and his pap team have promised Singaporeans a good life and a secure future if they voted for the pap. Now the Singaporeans whether willingly or unwillingly have been returning the pap government into power since 1959. So Singaporeans have delivered their part of the bargain, but they are still waiting for Lee Kuan Yew and his pap team to deliver their promise. If the nation cannot affort to provide a good life and secure future as promised by Lee Kuan Yew and his pap team, then we can well understand and perhaps continue to make the sacrifices as the older generations have done in the past for the nation. However, now that the nation is rich, I can see no good reason why Lee Kuan Yew and his pap team just refused to deliver on their promises of a good life and secure future to Singaporeans. Why should the good life be the exclusive reserves of Lee Kuan Yew and his pap team and their cronies ? It should be shared with all Singaporeans. Singapore prosperity is the result of ALL Singaporeans. It is not the result of just Lee Kuan Yew and his pap team as they will like Singaporeans to believe.

Dear People

How can anyone justify risking billions of dollars of public money in overseas investments – but yet – totally refuse to spend a few on subsidies for the people ?

Where is the morality in that ?

In Australia, there are welfare for the poor and the unemployed. There are also free hospitalization. Every year the Australian government spend over A$90 billion just on medical care for citizens and PRs. There are also minimium wage in Australia of A$568 per week. The workers are protected from foreign competitions. There are all sorts of assistance for those in needs. There are youth allowances. There are child allowances. Petrol is not subsidies.
Despite all these why is the Australian economy still so strong. The size of the Australian economy is more than 50% of Asean and it has a population of only 22 million. The people have freedom and human rights. They are very patriotic and proud of their country. When the national interest is at stake, the whole country including the oppositions rally around the government. Lee Kuan Yew has argued that Singapore cannot follow the Australian way because Singapore has no natural resources. I have now shown that this argument of Lee Kuan Yew is a hollow one. We may not have oil, and minierals but we do have over US$500 billions invested all over the world. At 8% the annual return is US$40 billion. This is more than the annual budget expenditure. So Singapore can afford to provide the kind of benefits to its citizens just like Australia.
The only reason I can see why the pap government is not serious in wanting to help Singaporeans to have decent lives is they are being very selfish. They only want to enjoy the good life themselves. They want to enslave Singaporeans forever so that they can remain in power forever. A free and thinking Singaporean is a major threat to the pap stranglehold on power and $billions. Singaporeans have given too much power to the pap government. So they are not responsive to the needs and aspirations of Singaporeans. Time to take back some of these power. The moment Singaporeans give the pap only a little more than 50% support, I can assure Singaporeans that the pap government will be more responsive to their needs and aspirations.

amanda, how can u claimed that the Singapore government is transperant when Lee Kuan Yew is not even prepared to tell Singaporeans how much of Singaporean wealth he is managing on our behalf. The GIC is not even accountable to Parliament. So even if a few $billions were siphoned away, Singaporeans will not even know. If you want to be blind, go ahead but please don’t ask other Singaporeans to be blind like you.

In response to my challenge for someone to tell me what they would do differently, I have this:

“Make it mandatory for proceeds of ERP to be spent ONLY on improving the public transportation system. That will ensure that ERP money goes to the right place.”

Please tell me – what improvements to the public transportation system is currently neglected or not done because of a lack of funds?

“GST: If you claim you are heading for deficits but you got a huge surplus instead, i leave it for you to decide the argument for the GST hike. Tax rebates for Singaporeans perhaps? Exemption of GST for purchasing basic subsidies (limit it to housebrand rice, sugar, cooking oil, how much can a rich man really eat?)”

The budget surplus was *not* because of the GST. If I recall correctly, the GST assessment was approximately correct. Remember that last year was the year of massive en bloc transactions? All property transactions attract stamp duties. Can the Govt have foreseen and forecasted that so many S’poreans would agree to en bloc transactions, and the amount of revenue this would bring to Govt?

As for giving out subsidies, that’s what this all boils down too. Let’s give some handouts! Handouts are short-term — in addition, once you go down the road of exempting GST from certain line items, where do you stop? Also, doing so complicates the work for any/all GST traders, who now would have to have more complex accounting systems. Really. It is not a trivial matter. Anyway, the stance taken on GST is, I think, correct – no exeptions, no exemptions.

“If you have the whole team of well-trained bureaucrats and technocrats to help you craft policies but an ordinary folk can come up with better policies, i wonder about the justifications for their pay then.”

You *think* they are better policies. I for one would disagree that giving away money is a good long-term policy.

As for transparency, which is another recurrent track, I would like to ask — have you *tried* to find information? Some of you have posted various figures. That seems to show that there isn’t as much non-transparency as is said? Have you tried looking at the Budget Book, or the GIC and Temasek Websites?

P.S. – I think one important principle of forums should be *not* to engage into ridiculous personal attacks. Making assumptions about where and what Amanda’s personal circumstances and background is just so tangential and so irrelevant…

amanda, how can you claimed that the Singapore government is working in the best interests of Singaporeans when they pursue policies which bring hardships to them ? They open the door wide to allow all types of foreigners into the country to take away the opportunities in Singapore. Singaporeans have to work harder and for less. If you think this is in the best interests of Singaporeans then either you were a foreingers who has benefitted from this policy or you are just plain dumb.

Dr Syed,

Whether they have wasted billions or not to me is not the issue. Even if they had not wasted 1 cent, there has to be TRANSPARENCY.

After all, it is PUBLIC’s money they are managing. Don’t we have a right to know what they do with OUR money?

amanda, if asking the pap government to be more generous in helping the struggling Singaporeans not a policy recommendation then what is it ?

Please look at the stuff at the MOF website. In order to make a credible argument that there isn’t sufficient transparency in respect of our reserves, one must first know what information *is* out there.

For an overview there is http://www.mof.gov.sg/budget_2008/revenue_expenditure/attachment/Assets_&_Liab_EE2008.pdf

Dear Solo Bear,

I agree 100% with your views on transparency ! Its public money as you correctly pointed out. Agreed 100% !!

amanda, ordinary folks may not be millionairs, they may not have consultants to rely on and they may not have priviledge informations, but they have reality and wisdoms. Those who live the luxurious lives are out of touch and have grand delusions.

Dear GoodGrief,

Tell me how much do we have in reserves and how much is being managed by GIC, Temasek, GLC etc…

How is the money distributed and where did all the GST, ERP, CPF money all go to ?

I want to know why the Government is prepared to risk losing billions in overseas investments but is not prepared to subsidise some commodities.

http://www.temasekholdings.com.sg/

http://www.temasekholdings.com.sg/our_portfolio_portfolio_highlights.htm

GoodGrief, it is not the amount of informations that matter, it is the relevant informations. Most ordinary folks are not sophisticated enough to understand those technical data. Just show me which pap government website contains the amount of Singaporean wealth that is being managed by the GIC. How much did they made last year ?

Dear Dr Huang;
thank You for your complements, You were earlier than me in the Net doing your parts for a better society.

Let us just put it these ways; ‘kuo jia an wei, pi fu you ze’ everyone has a duty to his country, ‘lu chian bu ping, pa dao xiang zhu’ Let us help the weaks against the crooked and right the wrongs.

Me appreciates You greatly.

patriot.

Dr Syed Alwi,

The information is all there.

In addition to the Temasek statistics which I provided, here is the link to the GIC overview:

http://www.gic.com.sg/faq.htm

http://www.temasekholdings.com.sg/our_portfolio_portfolio_highlights.htm

Money from GST, ERP? All that goes to Revenue which should be in the Budget Book.

Risking millions/billions in overseas investments have a chance of earning returns, and there is a demonstrated +ve return over inflation. Spending on subsidies is a black hole. It only goes away and is an expense item with no return. Ever. Except to create / foster a crutch mentality.

So, instead of simply repeating the mantra that there isn’t any transparency, show that you have studied the material that *is* out there and tell us what is wrong with that material. It is hollow to say that the information is not there, when it is. It is also not for *me* or anyone else to *tell you* this and that. Have *you* tried to get the information?

Good Grief

>>
Please tell me – what improvements to the public transportation system is currently neglected or not done because of a lack of funds?
>>

If you do take a train, you should notice that the train system is bursting at its seams. Fares have gone up but service standards stagnate at best. In Hong Kong, ironically, fares have gone down with the KCR-MTR merger.

Please visit places like Sengkang West. You think they are adequately served by buses?

>>
Can the Govt have foreseen and forecasted that so many S’poreans would agree to en bloc transactions, and the amount of revenue this would bring to Govt?
>>

Then why not use the money to bring back some relief to Singaporeans like what the Hong Kong government did? They too have a surplus and they use it for tax relief.

>>
As for giving out subsidies, that’s what this all boils down too. Let’s give some handouts! Handouts are short-term — in addition, once you go down the road of exempting GST from certain line items, where do you stop? Also, doing so complicates the work for any/all GST traders, who now would have to have more complex accounting systems. Really. It is not a trivial matter. Anyway, the stance taken on GST is, I think, correct – no exeptions, no exemptions.
>>

Thanks for bringing this point across: That the GST is a regressive tax that aggravates the income gap. And you are saying reducing its regressive effect on the less fortunate group is not a worthy enough cause to justify more administrative work. Thanks for your compassion for the poor.

And you have not addressed my point: It’s about tax relief NOT subsidies.

Drop the political bogeyman of handouts. We aren’t on a political campaign here.

Even a rightist like Margaret Thatcher won’t be stupid to mix up handouts with tax reliefs.

We have been subsidizing on education and health and housing too since independence. So where do we stop?

>>
You *think* they are better policies. I for one would disagree that giving away money is a good long-term policy.
>>

I never said those were better policies. But asking people to shut up by challenging them to come up with better policies is a rhetorical question. The problem is not with the ordinary people not coming with better alternatives, but the problem is why can’t someone with power, tools and manpower can’t do a better job?

>>
As for transparency, which is another recurrent track, I would like to ask — have you *tried* to find information? Some of you have posted various figures. That seems to show that there isn’t as much non-transparency as is said? Have you tried looking at the Budget Book, or the GIC and Temasek Websites?
>>

Why did you not enlighten us on the powers of citizen-shareholders then? I ask you but you seem uncomfortable to enlighten us on that.

>>
Spending on subsidies is a black hole.
>>

I guess Singapore students are in the black hole now: their education is heavily subsidised

Are you living in a HDB flat? If yes, you are part of the blackhole too.

Dear GoodGrief,

Sorry but I reject your explanation. Please elaborate on the GLC’s and our foreign investments. The sources of their income and breakdown of their profit and loss as well as their balance sheet.

I see merit in subsidising some commodities if one is prepared to risk losing billions in overseas investments. I thinks thats only wise and reasonable.

The people do not owe the Government a living – and the Government must be answerable to the people.

Hahah… ok, you’ve found something which I don’t agree with — characterising HDB prices as being subsidies may be technically correct (the opportunity cost of land is taken into account) but I think that if we look at the actual construction and related costs, the subsidy is less substantial. I’ve not checked the figures out, and until I do, I don’t rant about it…

Dear Observer,

I think to summarise all the comments – both for and against an issue – is a huge task. I am not sure that we have the time to do so, to be honest. This article alone has more than 140 comments. :)

On the other point you brought up, you asked what I would recommend for helping the poor. For a start, I think we should seriously look into the issue of minimum wage. I am not advocating that we import wholesale what other countries are doing. But we should at least study it and see if we can implement this, with our own modifications.

Second, I would also look into the issue of an unemployment insurance for all singaporeans. The Workers’ Party brought this up in the 2006 elections and so far, as far as I know, the govt has not dismissed it.

I think these two issues are worth looking into – because I think periodic CPF top-ups and occasional handouts is not going to do much for the poor, especially.

We’ve often been told that Singaporeans can command a premium if we’re more educated, more skilled and so on. But in reality, this works for only a certain group of people – mostly the top-end people.

What about the lower end?

This is why i said in the article that we need a more institutionalised approach to helping the poor and less educated.

Dear Dr Syed Alwi,

I am finding the discussion increasingly repetitive. My point is very simple — have you or any of the naysayers here actually tried to analyse the figures before repeating the mantra that the data is not there? Listed companies have their balance sheets and PnL reported. Temasek and GIC have a significant (perhaps insufficient? I don’t know — it looks significant to me) amount of data on their websites. Have you studied those?

Once again, there is a risk in foreign investments, but a bigger risk in *not* making them. Think about it – shifts in foreign currencies mean that if Singapore only holds its reserves in SGD, but the country needs to remit out in other currencies, we are royally screwed if the currencies move against the SGD. Hedging with foreign investments and diversification seem to be the basic requirement for prudent financial management.

I don’t think I’m going to continue with this thread much longer. As I say, it is getting repetitive, and I think those who started with a negative attitude towards the Govt are simply not even processing or looking at the views put forth by more moderate commentators.

First – there is the sniping but lack of realistic alternatives;

Secondly – there is the repeating of mantras (“no transparency”) and no attempt to dig through the material that is publicly available.

All this points not to informed critique against the Govt of the day, but instead, a contrarian attitude. “Everything by the Establishment must be bad.” Like Jon Stewart — either political party in the US is fodder for comedy, just because it is his business to be funny and to lampoon the politicians, on either side of the aisle.

Well, I’ve had just about enough of comedy…

Good Grief

>>
Hahah… ok, you’ve found something which I don’t agree with — characterising HDB prices as being subsidies may be technically correct (the opportunity cost of land is taken into account) but I think that if we look at the actual construction and related costs, the subsidy is less substantial. I’ve not checked the figures out, and until I do, I don’t rant about it…
>>

Haha, if it is not a subsidized form of housing, why should the Govt even provide it in the first place?

After all, if you are so anti-handouts, you can tell HDB flat dwellers to ditch their crutch mentality and find their own housing out in the free market and subject themselves to the forces of the free market. Why not?

Good Grief,

Still no explanation on the powers of citizen shareholders. What are you waiting for given your vast knowledge?

Dear GoodGrief

Maybe its comedy to you – but lets see how funny it is at elections time !

I sure hope that the SDP and WP will take up these issues.

As for the GLC’s – the SWF’s are not sufficiently transparent – and thats a well known fact.

Good Grief

>>
Hahah… ok, you’ve found something which I don’t agree with — characterising HDB prices as being subsidies may be technically correct (the opportunity cost of land is taken into account) but I think that if we look at the actual construction and related costs, the subsidy is less substantial. I’ve not checked the figures out, and until I do, I don’t rant about it…
>>

If you surf the net, you should know that the interest on the HDB loan is much lower than those offered by commerical banks.

Thanks for reminding us that 80% of the population is in your so-called blackhole of subsidies and having a crutch mentality by leaving in HDB units.

>>
the subsidy is less substantial
>>

The point is: Isn’t it still a subsidy?

You call something a blackhole. You don’t something a “partial blackhole”. That resembles a clumsy logic known as Bushism.

Good Grief,

There is nothing on the websites of GIC etc that is transparent enough for the public to inspect. Here are sample answers, taken from the links you provided.

>>
Is GIC a private company or a government body?
GIC was established on 22 May 1981 as a private company under the Companies’ Act, wholly owned by the Government of Singapore. GIC reports to its own Board of Directors which provides overall guidance and direction. Although GIC is government-owned and manages government funds, the relationship between GIC and the government is that of a fund manager and a client. GIC operates, invests, measures its performance and rewards its employees no differently from a global fund management company.
>>

Yeah, GIC is a PRIVATE company. There you are! As a PRIVATE company, they are only accountable to the sharedholders. And who are these shareholders? The government, which is basically, PAP!

So the GIC is in NO WAY legally bound to tell the PUBLIC of what they do with their funds.

>>
Where does the money that GIC manages come from?
GIC does not own the funds it manages, but manages them on behalf of its clients, the Government of Singapore and the Monetary Authority of Singapore. The Ministry of Finance represents the Government in dealing with GIC.
>>

But…but….the money held by MAS and the government of Singapore is in TRUST, isn’t it? Hey, that includes our taxes, revenue and CPF, right?

So let’s get this thing clear.

The GIC uses OUR MONEY to invest, but is in NO WAY liable to report to the people.

As for how the funds are managed, where is the full balance sheet, profit and loss statement etc, that gives us the breakdown of how OUR MONEY is being managed?

Fight long, long ah – all you peasants won’t get to see it, ah! Even the late President OTC got problem digging, you think you peasants can get it, izzit?

Amanda and Good grief, GIC and what not putting up websites is not equivalent to “opening up the books”. Morally and ethically, since it is OUR MONEY, we have the right to question where every single dollar comes from and goes to.

However, GIC is structured such that they don’t even have to call you for an AGM.

To all the peasants out there, hard luck!

>>
I don’t think I’m going to continue with this thread much longer. As I say, it is getting repetitive, and I think those who started with a negative attitude towards the Govt are simply not even processing or looking at the views put forth by more moderate commentators.
>>

The use of “negative attitude” and giving oneself the credit of being a “moderate” are splendid examples of political mudslinging and smearing in its ugliest form.

It seems that all engagement with Amanda on Singapore political and social are futile and wasteful. She should have stated her stand in the first place least commenter waste time refuting her simplistic view. She just shoot herself in the foot.
“1) Does an ordinary folk have a million dollar pay to that? No, So trust the million dollar minister then.

2) Does an ordinary folk have the whole team of bureaucrats and technocrats to craft policies? No, therefore the minister probably has examined all options and has arrived at the best option for Singaporeans in general.

3) Does an ordinary folk have THE PRIVILEGE OF INFORMATION? To some extent, but certain things need not be declared in the interest of national interest. For example, Singapore need not disclose strategic investments. Nor does Singapore have to disclose the exact locations and contingency of the Singapore Military.”

So she just ask the people to trust the million-dollars highly corporatized-gahmen with blind trust even though LKY once says we live in a make-believe world.
She doesn’t really know what happen to Singapore on the ground, and yet can give her wonderful and at time convincing comment the way gahmen give in Ivory Tower. Did many agree the her view and thought is uncannily intuned with the gahmen ? Wonder if she used to be a Singapore scholar who feel indebt to the government and need to speak out for them to return for their ‘kindness’,

“amanda on June 29th, 2008 12.52 pm

sure, you are entitled you own opinion.

If you wish to attack personally, please go ahead. Words across cyberspace can’t hurt me.”

That is the kind of remark that a gahmen will give where they have nothing to reason about. A tactic to implant other that people are attacking her personally when people are merely engaging the discussion. Nowhere did I find people are attacking her personally, anyone agree ?

Notice too that she says the government give freebies ? Be real, the government takes first and just give back a tiny portion of freebies. Did amanda really know how the government system of taking large pie and giving small pielet here works ?

If amanda wish to compare with USA to where she is staying now in aspect where thing are not as good as Singapore, then by all means she can give feedback to USA and help to improve the system there. Don’t just simply bring those issues and disadvantages in other countries in Singapore and simpliy compare it one to one says that we are much matter happily. That kind of ’simple’ argument is the same as what the gahmen in a certain ministry tell us all along “That we are much cheaper or better” in transport cost, education cost, and blah and blah which is only one-sided. Do consider issues on wider perspective.

We should strive to keep cost down as much as possible and not give ridiculous reason as the world is facing inflation, so the gahmen should respond to inflation by increasing price too, and just follow the world. Remember why can’t we be ‘uniquely Singapore’ when it comes to making life better for Singaporean and easing the burder ? and Yeah, stop taking the worse and fallacy case that government will make us a millionaire if they give help.

When it comes to dishing out help, the government will take a world-wide view. When it comes to helping themselves to millions and billions , suddenly the government will take a local view that they are special.
Why did not the government follow the world standard of giving pathetic salary in tune with great country like USA give to president Bush, president of China then ? These leaders in other countries handle greater affair and responsibility over their large country and yet their salaries are just a fraction compare to gahmen here. That is the reason we should not give blind trust to the government because they no longer deliver anything but seem to reap more money from the citizen.

Instead of treating citizen well, their strategy is to invest in hardware more than software, making image of Singapore look beautiful and attractive. But really, when foreigner come here, all they find is one souless and pragmatic society live on a WonderLand that can hardly call a home.

The use of phrases like “negative attitude” is mudslinging? That is hilarious. As compared to making snide comments and guesses about Amanda’s motivations for working in the US?

OK, that’s it. If that’s the level and quality of discussion, I’m not going to waste my time carrying this further. Yes, GIC is a private company, yes, there are reports on its returns – no one has been able to say that they have even tried to study and analyse the figures.

Not happy with GIC and Temasek transparency, make it an election issue. But I think if that is done, whoever raises it will be embarrassed because there is, to my eye, a fair bit of information out there already. In fact, so much that some other responder said earlier today, “too much, just give us bottom line” whereas others say “I want more details”. There is a fair bit already — why not digest it and figure out what specific misgivings or concerns you have?

I’ll pop in to look at this thread now and then but if it doesn’t elevate itself from repetitive calls for handouts, or grumbles against lack of transparency without even making use of the information that is out there… then its just being contrary for the sake of being contrary.

Problem with specific sectors on the MRT? Yeah, sure, but my challenge was to ask if there was any improvement that was not being embarked upon for lack of funds…

I follow on Solo Bear’s post to extrapolate but not to implicate or insinuate IMHO:-

I conclude that therefore GIC cannot ever be audited by the auditor general or minister of finance or parliament or even the ppl. And yet it is a Sovereign Wealth Fund – conveniently not subject to int’l scrutiny. By extension, it is ‘MM’ Lee as a politician and ruling govt leader running – extending the sovereignty idea.

As a pte company, if there is any wrongdoing, does CAD or CPIB step in? I doubt.

Less than a few days back, there’s a snippet somewhere in ST that Temasek Hldings’ Ho Ching is getting some award from US. The snippet refers to TH as a sovereign fund. Yet, TH defends itself to the US govt that it is not a sovereign wealth fund with political interests, purely commercial. I find it confusing.

In all, do the benefits from the reserves and interests ever come back into the country’s annual budget. I am afraid if yes ever during the SARS recession days, it is but a drop in the lake.

For myself, I dun ever expect to bother abt CPF, GIC or Temasek Hldings funds or reserves. I have no expectations as in projecting any thought or wish into the future abt the availability of these funds or reserves. The main reason is I have no say or control over it.

I think self-help is the only way to go abt it or go on in life – exactly what the govt has been trying over the years telling ppl that they are on their own. However the govt and party has a hard time cutting the umbilical cord from the organs that serve its interests so well i.e. NTUC, PA or state funded places such as Singapore Technologies etc. Why? Centralised control and influence and hence the vote. It seems that it cannot liberate itself and ppl also cannot liberate themselves from this deadly embrace.

If I deviated, sorry. Btw, I am neither saying the govt is corrupt or incompetent. This is because if so, they are non unique on this earth. For lack of a better description, ppl have a pain avoidance mechanism that says they cannot be wrong.

GoodGrief

>>
I’ll pop in to look at this thread now and then but if it doesn’t elevate itself from repetitive calls for handouts
>>

Still hang up about hand-outs. I am also fed up with repetitive with the avoidance on your part to talk about tax relief.

Just stop using handouts as a political bogeyman. We are not on a campaign trail.

>>
Problem with specific sectors on the MRT? Yeah, sure, but my challenge was to ask if there was any improvement that was not being embarked upon for lack of funds…
>>

Then why have MRT and SBS transit been justifying their regular fare hikes based on “increasing operating costs”?

You still have not provide a clue when i asked you about the state of bus services in areas like Sengkang West.

>>
Not happy with GIC and Temasek transparency, make it an election issue. But I think if that is done, whoever raises it will be embarrassed because there is, to my eye, a fair bit of information out there already. In fact, so much that some other responder said earlier today, “too much, just give us bottom line” whereas others say “I want more details”. There is a fair bit already — why not digest it and figure out what specific misgivings or concerns you have?
>>

If late President Ong can’t figure it, i don’t think little people like us can too. Perhaps you are more brilliant than President Ong, why not run for President next time round then since you are so passionate about analyzing figures out there?

>>
OK, that’s it. If that’s the level and quality of discussion, I’m not going to waste my time carrying this further.
>>

If the quality of the posts here irks you so much, we promise we will get out of your uncaring elite face.Sorry about upsetting you.

Goodgrief,

And my challenge asking you to enlighten us on the powers of citizen shareholders has not been taken by you for some mysteriously unknown reasons on your part.

Dear Andrew,

Thank you for responding. Really appreciate it. I have no issue with your suggestions purely in the aspect of the lower-income group. Are there any official publication of what percentage of it governmental or non governmental? However, how do one classify low-income group is what really matters. This is about similar issue face here where I currently lived and worked (Hong Kong).

I think once that can be defined (hopefully the think tank up there is listening). Then surely it can be implemented. There are problems in defining the bracket as well. Why did I say that?

Take the recent announcement of rebate on PUB (if I remember correctly, it was announced a few days ago on Today online that I had read ~ well better than ST). The rebate is only applicable to HDB tenants up to 4 rooms flat? What about the rest of them? People who are living in HDB about 4 rooms’s flat or even private residence? There could be people who are already being classified into the low-income brackets. You will always have this invisible divisible line (just like the income tax bracket).

Regarding minimum wage (seemed a lot think it will work), Let me try to back up my reasoning why I think minimum wage will not work.

I personally have other thoughts. Setting minimum wage aint going to do it albeit it will give a temporary lift to the take home salary but will it not be enough to supplement the ever increasing daily needs? And you will end with the vicious cycle of making adjustment and loads of other hidden issues as it progresses. So do you lower the minimum wage when the economy is really stricken? You do that when you really have some from of natural resources to fall back into.

On the flip side of the coin in setting minimum wage, it will create more problems for people (in particular, young, older and unskilled), as the employers will feel the pinch and will demand more than the job responsibilities called for (which I believed it is the same case in Singapore at moment). Even without a minimum wage mandate in Hong Kong which has a similar business setting, it is at least the case here.

Setting minimum wage works only when the community of business people is willingly supplementing it. But are our employers in Singapore willingly accept this kind of arrangement? This is unknown albeit I read a recent survey that some Singapore employers will help its lower-income group of employees with some sort of supplement.

Forget about asking the top to consider reducing the big package they enjoy. I am tired of expressing any further views on that. Let them be. What I really hope they would do (be it whatever party), is to seriously look at how for the next few years to contain pricing on the basic necessities needs (such as housing, food, utilities, transportation). It is a tough one as this is not entirely within any government’s control. But they could at least temporarily subsidize for the lower-income group (ONLY) to make ends meet.

So, at the end of the day, to improve the living condition of these group of people, again it is back to basic how do you classify them and ensuring that it is not being abused. Too much procedure and rule it makes this group of people unwilling to come forward. Too little procedure and rule, it is susceptible for abuse. The balancing work is indeed something to be worked out. I think it is best for government agencies to proactively seek out this (defined) income group and give them the aide. Fair?

Whether we all agree or not is not important. The important thing is that the top people are listening and hopefully they get it implemented soon. and do not make it a propaganda for the coming election.

I personally would really hope that the government will accord us with more freedom to choose, more freedom to expression and so on. They can keep the ISA law as even big brother America also have the patriot act to counter national security breach. That is why I kept stressing that when we pen our comments in blog-sphere (if they ever come in to read and this seemed to be the best medium there is to voice out as concerned citizens), we need to exercise a state of maturity and prove to them that we are a grown-up bunch. If you want someone to change mindset that are deep rooted, you need to prove it that you are ready. Agree? It is not kow-tow to them or we are afraid of this or that. It is purely on basic principle of mutual winning strategy so often applied in corporate competitors.

I personally think this is more important and the urgency is there for them to address it. If you are stripe off these, nothing else matters. Otherwise you are forever at the mercy of the people governing it. What make us all think that Opposition will not follow the route of the PAP once they are in power? If you read the declaration from our MM back when he was battling to form his party, what were those words? Through the course of time, things got twisted from its original intent. Yes, you will probably see street demonstration in almost any issues. That can be annoying at times. But, that is also parts and parcels of true democracy process.

I fully agreed with MMs’ view this will not work ONLY in our days (my and patriot’s generation) as most of us are not well educated (not that we do not want to be educated). Sometimes the basic necessities are just too overwhelming and the environment in those days does not really work well with full democracy. The environment we are in today is different. Yes, there will be some form of social unrest here and there, tell me which country do not face these kind of problems anywhere in the world? We are Human Beings and we all will have differing views and values. That is the wonder and paint of being a Human Being.

So, people, please if you really want change, show and prove in anyway you can wherever you can to the top people there that we are ready. Never mind if the top people are not matured in thinking if you have these thoughts. Evolution of change can be infectious when the good values are recognized. But you must first prove it.

Sorry typo error. it should read.

You do that when you really have some form of natural resources to fall back into.

amanda so sweet n innocent just like angle……..
you’re lousy liar… dont even know how to bluff,,, dont ever play poker…
Your statment will only cause greater harm to your master.

Dear Andrew,

As to the summary statistics of the nays and ayes request for all the critical issues published here, I think it is worht the while to do it. As any form of change request, FACTS speaks louder and it is a form of supporting evidence to counter arguments. Well at least, this article and Human Rights issues.

I agree the task can be tedious. But if we are really serious hoping for the change to take effect, we need to try right? This again in its essence is a prove of concerned citizens movement in the virtual world made real.

I am a critical person in real life but I am not senseless nor am i cold blooded. Not only to myself but to others as well. But I certainly like the constructive critical approach when we are being put in an environment where we virtually have to compete for anything. I believe in today’s world, you really have to do it if you are being drag into it. Did we ask for it? No, it just happen with the changing time.

I really hope TOC consider spin off a topic on Global Climate Warming and its effect. How it impact us in a big way. Singapore will not be spare, planet earth weather change knows no boundary and its effect could possibly derail your planned future whether you are a person that only concerned with material wealth or you are more of a spiritual well being person. It too will not discriminate against poor or rich.

There are reports on its returns. But GIC being private means that we will not get to see it. I thought Solo Bear was explicit enough on this point. Either way, you seem to want to put yourself above the argument by referring to the powers-that-be: make it an election issue where you will fall on your face, the information exists when we should find it (and have YOU found it, since you profess that it exists?)

The Temasek Holdings site shows how much the portfolio has increased, not statistics like how much money went into the investment, and specifically, how much was made in returns. Or do you think, Good Grief, that such information is too dangerous to be released to us plebians?

No information is too deemed too much for Singaporean to digest. The internet is a global platform for collective and collaborative intelligence. If we are not capable of performing analysis, someone will in the net. If we are not intelligent enough to analyze a issue, someone will in the net. Let’s not flatter ourselves to think that one alone is capable of performing what President Ong did. President Ong did not get the information he need because many of those in the government rather play by LKY’s rule than for the good of Singapore, making it difficult for president Ong. We know whose rule is Singapore, don’t we ?

Did anyone realize that there are some here who downplay the importance of transparency and accountability by saying that one cannot digest the information even if the information is present. NOw, didn’t we learn from financial specialist like Lucky Tan, Leong Sze Hian etc ?

Why we need accountability, responsibility and transparency from the work and business of the gahmen ? Because it act as check and balance. The notion that someone is watching behind the back of the gahmen are good enough to ensure that gahmen don’t play prank and stray in morality. No one is asking for the perfect accountability, but good enough that one can question them critically.

Taking the example of the security guard in building ? Shortage of security guard may not be effective but it is still better than none at all because having security guard create the fear and deter the robber from attempting crime in the first place.

I do not know if GIC and Temasek Holdings have made good returns on their investments. They claim to have done so.
I do not know if an accusation that our coffers have been depleted by bad investments is true. I do not have any figures to decide one way or the other.
I do not know if money has been siplhoned off. I do not know how much there is to begin with.
I do not know what system of checks and balances we have.
I do not know how to answer when I was asked what our president does to earn close to 4 million dollars a year.
I do not know how many Singaporeans are unemployed.
I do not know why I am not permitted to know.
I do not know how such a state of affairs can be tolerated.
I do not know why I should blindly trust the current government based on the achievements of the previous one.
I do not know if the top people are listening.
I do not know if they care even they did.
I do know that in all forms of relationships, I do not trust those that choose to keep me ignorant.

The comments come in fast and furious for this article, much thank must be accorded to amanda for her provocative and instigative posts.

Now Singaporeans get to know that USA is inferior in almost everything, most importantly, the governance of nation, to Singapore. All these while, I have been hearing that the US is the most powerful nation and the man(presidents) heading it, is the most powerful man(whatever that means) in the World and therefore it must be the best governed. A lady from Singapore staying there now, seems to disagree. The US even fails to give Iraq the democracy; of course the only democracy the US can give Iraq is not to interfere in its’(Iraq) internal affairs lah.

Amanda concludes that the Singapore Leaders have done and are doing much for their citizens. But, the citizens failed to appreciate and instead whine and rant at their rulers. Implicitly and tacitly, she also meant that Singaporeans are ungrateful. She had to foot the cost of her studies in US, looked liked a much higher sum than if she had studied in Singapore, why then did she went to the US for study, baffling!

Amanda seems to discontinue the discussions with us or communicate lesser now, I would like to invite her to interact with us more, so that we can have alternative viewpoints and a wider perspective of issues.

patriot.

“I do not know if GIC and Temasek Holdings have made good returns on their investments. They claim to have done so.”

If one hide everything, one can say whatever they want in the first place. If they indeed credible, why did exPresident Ong is so furious about the discrepency on reserves and investment of coffers’ corporation plaything ? Is there a creative accounting and manipulation done behind the scene that cannot face public scrutiny ? One can definitely answer if one take the clue from the ‘world class’ reasons from the minister so far.

increase ERP entry and charge to help business
Increase to help the poor
Use MSM for nation building

Goodgrief, why chicken out ? Have your half truths been exposed ?
I just don’t understand why you and amanda are wasting your time denying what even Lee Kuan Yew and some other ministers have admitted on the world stage.
They admitted that Singapore is not a true democratic society. That Singaporeans were not given the complete picture of their wealth for fear that they will demand too much from the government (per LKY). As a Singaporean living in Australia I seen to know more about Singapore than the Singaporean living in Singapore. When pap junior minister responded to Singaporean question at a feedback session on how much the GIC has, by saying that it is a secret, I had a good laugh. The media in the first world has already printed a few times their estimates of how much it is. That is why I came to the figure of US$500 billion. I also happened to know that our gold holdings were valued at cost and some of them were bought at US$35 an oz while the current market value is over US$850. So even if they reveal their complete books, it will not be easy to pin down the exact worth. That is why the people in charge must be honest with us. If not, there is no way Singaporeans will ever know. Not even the President as the experiences of Ong Teng Cheong illustrated. There is this thing call creative accounting and abuse of statistics.

Dear People,

Its very clear that we have very little transparency regarding the way our money is managed by the GLC’s etc.

I do NOT accuse the Government of corruption or anything like that. But what really hurts my feelings- is this total refusal to help out Singaporeans by some subsidies of important commodities like rice, sugar etc in this age of oil crises and food shortages.

They – the Government – can happily risk losing billions of our money in overseas investments. Shin Corp, Suzhou and so on. Yet they cannot even spend a little bit to help us.

I feel very hurt………….Tak Boleh Tahan !!

Dear people,

Actually, there is a provision set in our constitution that can force the government to open their books. It is the Elected Presidency.

The Elected President can ask for the books to be opened, because public funds are involved. That was what OTC tried to do. However, he was stonewalled and outcasted. He wasn’t even given a state funeral when he died – yeah, the ONLY ex-president of Singapore WITHOUT a state funeral!

That goes to show how bitter the Old Man was, when OTC tried to do his job, which will make Old Man look bad.

I believe that the people can also get a referendum, to pressure the Elected President to get PAP to open the books. Anyone wanna try that? Hee hee. Thought so.

So the only thing left to do is that come 2011, let your vote do the talking. But I doubt it will happen. Because 60+% will still return the PAP back into power. Tan ku ku ah.

Another alternative for those who are able to, is to be a quitter. Let your feet do the talking and just walk out. Need more be said?

I need more Singapore friends to join me in Canada, should I decide to uproot here totally. Here is a link to help you migrate to beautiful Canada. I got my PR approved within less than 4 years. Hurry up or you will miss the boat.
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/index.asp

Yea! Canada is the second largest country in the world and is severely underpopulated. Large spacious, unchartered land, where bears roam free!

To cut long story short, the GLC and Temasex are not transparent. Only LKY and LHL know the reserves, and profit & loss, even President Ong did not know. What is the use of elected presidency ? Nathan just collects $3.8 million per annum, and shakes legs, I eco the view of Dr Syed Alwi, Tak Boleh Tahan !!! Today Teo Chee Hean gives rice, cooking oil to the ppl of pasir ris, nia mah !! TV channel 5 headline, give rice want to gain credit?? Is it not political ploy ?? Ask Ng eng hen, govt does thing means care for the people. Low Thia Kiang asked questions means political ploy, nia mah !! Tak Boleh Tahan !!! pui!! pui !!

Dear ppl,

pardon me for saying this… i cannot tahan… even if king of vampire awakes, he also dont suck like PAP… PAP are worse them beast…

Do they know what is the feeling of hunger? do they know what is the feling of being poor? Have they seem any oldies without a home?

They are the gov, and yet they only suck and increase their own welfare… i FXXX them…

Response to Posts #165 and #167. My responses prefixed by ***

>165) No need to good grief on June 29th, 2008 6.32 pm

>GoodGrief

>>I’ll pop in to look at this thread now and then but if it doesn’t elevate itself
>>from repetitive calls for handouts

>Still hang up about hand-outs. I am also fed up with repetitive with
>the avoidance on your part to talk about tax relief.
>
>Just stop using handouts as a political bogeyman. We are not on a
>campaign trail.

*** The premise of many naysayers on this thread is that there should be special treatment for various categories of consumer products, starting from rice, but spreading to oil, sugar, etc. “Where it stops, nobody knows” — whether it is a tax relief or a subsidy, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.

*** What sort and quantity of tax relief are you talking about? MOF lists the following:

• Benefits For All Singaporeans – $5b
• Growth Dividends – $865m
• GST Offset Package – $4b over 5 yrs
• SME Rebate Scheme – no dollar value stated
• Progress Package – no dollar value stated
• Economic Restructuring Shares – no dollar value stated
• New Singapore Shares – no dollar value stated

*** What should we do? Double these values? Triple them, Quad them? 10x them? “Where it stops, nobody knows”

>>Problem with specific sectors on the MRT? Yeah, sure, but my challenge was
>> to ask if there was any improvement that was not being embarked upon for >>lack of funds…
>>
>Then why have MRT and SBS transit been justifying their regular fare
>hikes based on “increasing operating costs”?

*** Huh? I asked if there were any infrastructural improvements that were not being embarked upon because of a lack of funds. MRT and SBS are merely operators. They operate infrastructure which Govt provides. What is the point of targetting a part of the Govt Revenue for a specific purpose, if there is no shortage of funds for that specific purpose, if it is deserved?

>You still have not provide a clue when i asked you about the state of
>bus services in areas like Sengkang West.

*** And all this started when I asked whether anyone has heard of infrastructural projects which have been delayed or mothballed because there are no funds…. so? Have you?

>>Not happy with GIC and Temasek transparency, make it an election issue.
>>But I think if that is done, whoever raises it will be embarrassed
>>because there is, to my eye, a fair bit of information out there already.
>>In fact, so much that some other responder said earlier today, “too
>>much, just give us bottom line” whereas others say “I want more
>>details”. There is a fair bit already — why not digest it and figure out
>>what specific misgivings or concerns you have?
>>
>If late President Ong can’t figure it, i don’t think little people like us can
>too. Perhaps you are more brilliant than President Ong, why not run for
>President next time round then since you are so passionate about
>analyzing figures out there?

*** I don’t know what specific problem OTC had. But the numbers are there, and if you want to assert that the numbers are not there, then tell me what’s not there. I only know that when I see the unit fund performance data provided by banks, they state the value of the entire fund, and as such, the portfolio performance. Why is it relevant to know, if you are selling chicken rice, that you bought $300 worth of chicken to sell at $450 if the main purpose is to ascertain whether the chicken rice stall managed to make $150?

>167) No need to good grief on June 29th, 2008 6.40 pm
>
>Goodgrief,
>
>And my challenge asking you to enlighten us on the powers of
>citizen shareholders has not been taken by you for some
>mysteriously unknown reasons on your part.

*** Well, I thought it is quite clear — the powers of citizens include (a) actually caring enough to read the stuff that’s available and not make potshots for the sake of making potshots; (b) asking questions to their elected representatives (Won’t work? Have you tried?). Ultimately, if there is the “siphoning away” that some people suggest, make it an election issue.

*** Walk the talk. Don’t just talk and talk. The status quo doesn’t bother me — there are other problems that we have but the sniping I see in this discussion thread do not even begin to be relevant.

*** As they say, “Lead, Follow or Get Out of the Way”. So a simple note to those who’ve moved to Australia or Canada — all the best, and I hope you do well. We all have to make our own decisions and yes, if we want to, we should just get out of the way.

*** So long and thanks for all the fish.

I think Singaporeans aren’t worth even the waters. Recently the govt decided to invest $11billion to develop a new reservoir. They rather throw the $$$ into investment rather than helping poor Singaporeans.

Good Grief

>>
The premise of many naysayers on this thread is that there should be special treatment for various categories of consumer products, starting from rice, but spreading to oil, sugar, etc. “Where it stops, nobody knows” — whether it is a tax relief or a subsidy, a rose by any other name smells just as sweet.
>>

All was silent about subsidies on education and HDB flats. But what can we expect from bogeyman politics?

>>
Huh? I asked if there were any infrastructural improvements that were not being embarked upon because of a lack of funds. MRT and SBS are merely operators. They operate infrastructure which Govt provides. What is the point of targetting a part of the Govt Revenue for a specific purpose, if there is no shortage of funds for that specific purpose, if it is deserved?
>>

Why not use the money to cover the operating costs? The purpose of ERP is ultimately get everyone on the trains? So the ultimate purpose of ERP is to let ERP gantries be redundant one day.

If you keep increasing fares on public transport and not spending money improving on services, when is a substantial switch to public transport going to occur?

Your notion is that once we have grandeur and impressive infrastructure, we can all forget about pertinent issues like fares, services and waiting time etc. Funds from ERP can be used to address to deal with all these obstacles of a switch to public transport. For some interesting reasons, you are infrastrutural-obessive.Never mind about these things, as long as we have an impressive station, that’s all it matters.

I suppose then you will find the Pyongyang Metro the most impressive: they got palatial like stations. As for the frequency of trains, it is not really your concern.

>>
And all this started when I asked whether anyone has heard of infrastructural projects which have been delayed or mothballed because there are no funds…. so? Have you?
>>

Why not spend the money on providing some bus routes using ERP funds? Why are you afraid of addressing the needs of poor residents in places Sengkang West?

>>
*** What sort and quantity of tax relief are you talking about? MOF lists the following:

• Benefits For All Singaporeans – $5b
• Growth Dividends – $865m
• GST Offset Package – $4b over 5 yrs
• SME Rebate Scheme – no dollar value stated
• Progress Package – no dollar value stated
• Economic Restructuring Shares – no dollar value stated
• New Singapore Shares – no dollar value stated
>>

Sure that’s an impressive list. In a few years time, all this will find their way back in the coffers in the form of the 7% GST which is not a one-off event unlike those “goodies”. Aren’t you amazed with fiscal prudence of this kind? I suggest you do some simple math. Taxation 101, aren’t you interested in signing up?

>>
I don’t know what specific problem OTC had
>>

Are you implying that OTC is making a mountain out of a molehill then? Yes or no?

>>
Well, I thought it is quite clear — the powers of citizens include (a) actually caring enough to read the stuff that’s available and not make potshots for the sake of making potshots; (b) asking questions to their elected representatives (Won’t work? Have you tried?). Ultimately, if there is the “siphoning away” that some people suggest, make it an election issue.
>>

Wait, aren’t shareholders suppose to have AGMs and annual reports? Where are they? Election issue? Without annual reports and balance sheets to prove it, one will get into civil law suits. Save your rhetorical questions for yourself. Please read up on what is asymmetric information.

You make claims about transparency but i doubt you read the papers:

LKY:There have always been these calls for transparency and we have been careful about it. There are reasons why we do not think we should be too transparent.

Can to comment on the above quote?

GoodGrief

And you haven’t share your thoughts about the regressiveness of GST.

Maybe you are only a specialist in subsidies. The nature of taxes is just too much for some to fgiure out since they are been ultra-obsessive with subsidies.

You still haven’t comment on why Singapore students and HDB flat dwellers are not part of your highly dramatic, sensational and theatrical notion of a “subsidies blackhole”.

Your talent in bogeyman politics can be of better use in Greek tragic drama.

GoodGrief

Given your insistence on the available of information, we have one question which you have been mysteriously avoiding.

For one last time we gotta to ask you: Where is the annual report with the balance sheet, profit and loss statement etc? Where?

No answer from GoodGrief… I think that settles his/her argument then.

Dear Good Grief,

Yes – the Government does give one-time handouts like New Singapore Shares etc. But I think the fact that they increased GST to 7% – more than covers the one-time nature of hand-outs. There is a common wisdom in Singapore that if the Government gives you $ 100 – they will take from you $ 1000 !!

Forget one time hand outs. I want to see a policy statement regarding subsidies etc. Why is the Government prepared to lose billions in overseas investments but totally refuses to subsidise any commodities for us ?

And where is the Profit & Loss, Balance Sheet etc from the GLC’s ?

Young talking again – Say what you like the PAP has done a good job over the years. It is trying very hard still and planning to counter adversities in many scenarios reaction plans.

If you are talking about all inclusive society, then there is a long way ahead – help others ? fat hope ; president & ministers and civil servants helped themselves first – it is natural like animals -feed yourself then your children. Except here there may be obescity settingin. Have you ever seen president or ministers making a personal contribution of cash to charity ?

Class Action – who dares ? The parents affected by the UNSWAsia campus closure spoked about it in the parents and UNSW staff dialogue; however ministers involved declined to meet the parents. NOT MY FAULT.

So in Singapore, you get what is dished out ; rich or poor – important thing is to take care of yourself and your health especially; remember you cannot bring money along when your time is up.

Why waste time having opinions; channel you energy towards spiritual and holistic well being ; any other things include FTs that come along be hopefully blessings. Good bye guys…………………..

Alright, I agree that the brick wall analogy was not that well chosen. But the main point of the analogy is to show you that parts and the whole are different.

Here is another example, this year the New York Giants won the American superbowl, the biggest achievement in American Football. That is success for the team.

On the other hand, if you were a an individual football player, presumably individual success might be the chance to earn more money or the chance to start every game. (correct me if instead players want to earn as little as possible and start as little as possible). So the coach, would have to make pragmatic decisions to increase the chances of the team winning. That is similar to the role of the government. If the coach thinks a player is making a mess, he should drop the player for the good of the team. That would not be very “successful” of the player. I hope this shows a greater distinction between “individual success” and the “team(national) interest”.

Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, I went to the USA to study not on a scholarship, but instead through the help of my parents. You say that Singapore should not need to sponsor me since I left; yes that is correct. However, conversely it does mean that those who come to Singapore to support and to create success for us, should deserve our support. Can you then rightfully say that there are at least not some Foreign Talents , or “FT”s as some of you like to refer to them, that make a difference? Or can you rightly say that for every job in the country, Singaporeans are better? If you don’t give the better person a job, is that still a meritocracy?

I find it odd that anytime someone appears to agree with the Singapore government it means that they must either be a Singapore Scholar/ member of the PAP, or government affiliated civil servant? Why can’t people who genuinely agree with the government’s policies be none of the above? Well, sorry to disappoint any of you, but I am neither a scholar, nor a party member, nor a civil servant. I am just a young lady living in NY with her daughter and husband. And no, my husband is not Singaporean, so if we choose to stay in the States, that is our choice.

Earlier, there was a list of short questions regarding million dollar ministers and what not. Anyway, I said something like “trust the million dollar minister” because that is the standard of answer your standard of questioning deserves. I grew up in Singapore, and as you might have heard before from your secondary school teacher, ” stupid questions deserve stupid answers”.

Honestly, why keep repeating the point that ministers are earning a million dollars ? That is irrelevant to the conclusion even though it may be true. Why not reiterate the point that the minister is male? That is true too isn’t it? This perpetual reference to money does not play much of a role in the argument.

Well, the discussion went well at points. You are entitled to your own views, and I am entitled to mine. I mean, just put your points across in a polite and dignified fashion. For example, “Weijia” and “Victor” obviously do not agree with what I say, but I think that their points are put across in a very fair and dignified fashion. Some people, for example Tiredman, would rather question my motivations and cannot carry on a conversation in a dignified and polite manner. Of course, I should have realized that theonlinecitizen tends to attract more of the people who do not like the government’s policies, so I guess I should have expected a relatively hostile response from other commenters and forum users. But I stand by my opinions.

This thread is getting long and repetitive , as noted earlier, and I have work to do. I’ll comment again whenever I have the inspiration to do so.

Meanwhile, thanks for your responses.

Jackson,
Certain projects proposed and done by the Government are good for us and the future generations. Building more reservoirs, tapping on the sun energy to replace pure reliance on oil as another alternatives and making an effort to bring awareness the importance of saving the earth are good. However, the Government also brought in dire project in the future and their acquisitions of overseas’ assets and investments scare me. Their politics and policies scare me too. Ultimately, the prosperity of a country is not measured by the wealth the Government generates but the welfare and well-being of her countrymen and women.

Dear people,
Don’t depend on the govt for hand outs. This is political ploy, like Dr Syed Alwi, they give you an inch, they want to take back a foot. These are all ploy, we live under pap for so long, we know all these ploy. Singaporeans have to wake up and vote in more opposition MPs to check on them. They gamble away our reserves in bad investment, though MM Lee said it is long term, but if it fails, who is answerable, who is accountable, after 30 years, both Lees are gone. Who should be responsible ? President ?

“with one of the highest savings rates in the world, become so dependent on government handouts to even just get by?”

It is true that we are getting more and more dependent on the Government for “progress package”, “handouts” and such. Funny thing is that if we are getting better off than last time, why is the Govt. giving even more to us people now? Does that equate to the Govt. being better off, but not the people? So who’s better off truly?

We are into a period of good economic growth and social development… If there are no wars or oil crises, this golden period can stretch out over many years… (Singapore in a golden period, says MM Lee, 2007),

- but the fact is MM Lee doesn’t reliase the period he is stating is an utopia period that does not exist. There IS something that will happen. Do not lie to ourselves that we are in an golden era, unless he means only the people working in the CBD area.

Dear Amanda,
Action speaks louder than words, Amanda. Your action do not match all your praises.

You said:
“The government should take care of the national interest rather than individual people. After all, the government is not your papa or mama.”

Do you think that by making the above statement is “carrying on a conversation in a dignified and polite manner”? You are trying to tell us off that we are like children or babies asking for more money or you are trying to tell us that we do not deserve the right that we should have because in fact Singapore is not our country. Are you sure that your are polite when you are trying to tell people that you are just a cry baby?

If you want others to be polite to you, please rephrase this statement(s) or you are just making another “get out of my uncaring elite face” statement.

Finally, you did not answer all my questions. I am asking you to convince me and seem like you are not able to answer all my questions. Fortunately, you have answered some of my queries, however, your answer(s) are similar to the answers that had been told over and over again by our great ministers and can be easily rebutted by most of the bloggers here. Thereafter, you started to choose words, like the above to piss people off by insulting and started to label I as undignified, impolite when you yourself started off as being one.

Do not do this to others when you do not like others to do this to you. Sorry, you are not Leong Sze Hian or Tan Kin Lian who speak for the people.

Thank you.

By the way, I do not support any political parties.

Amanda, Good Grief

>>
“” stupid questions deserve stupid answers”.
>>

Isn’t this mudslinging and smearing in its ugliest form?

Even if we ask a “stupid” question, why not answer it “smartly”? You mean giving a stupid answer is all that you are capable of? Hmm..

We “stupid” people here will get out of your elite uncaring face.

Goodgrief, please comment on your good friend’s scathing remark. Thanks.

[...] Minister Salaries: Get Rich or Die Tryin – TOC: Whose future is “shining”, really? [...]

Amanda

>>
Can you then rightfully say that there are at least not some Foreign Talents , or “FT”s as some of you like to refer to them, that make a difference? Or can you rightly say that for every job in the country, Singaporeans are better? If you don’t give the better person a job, is that still a meritocracy?
>>

I know of Michael Vana, is he counted inside this pool of foreign talent? Chen Jiulin, China Aviation Oil CEO, foreign talent also leh. These people make a difference… to the headlines of the boring local papers and i appreciate that.

I suggest we outsource our bureaucracy to overseas. Why not give foreign talent a chance to be top civil servants then? Comments, Amanda?

Amanda;
may I suggest that if you are a US Citizen now, do your duty as a US Citizen like we Singaporeans are doing with our Ruler. Apparently, you are showing us that there are many aspects of livings in your country(US) that you are unhappy with. And as a US Citizen, do yourself, your family and your fellow Americans some goods by feeding back suggestions and criticisms to your political leaders.

Your participations here are very welcome too if you are factually and sincerely aware of the situations existing here. Due to the distance, cultural and political differences between where you are and here, I doubt you can understand much of Singapore. I may like to ask if you comprehend the differences between a rich and a poor families and a country with plenty of resources versus one that has none? Please do not take these as insignificant issues.

There are glaring weaknesses in your comments so far, you keep giving fuzzy analogies that have no connections to the discussions as well as politics and governance. You gave building wall(architecture) football(game/sport) analogies and what nots, completely not link to the topic and the discussions. You got to be relevant. If you are suspected of being a mole, my sympathy goes to the Suspicion.

Amanda, you may have emotional ties to this land you are born in, it is good for you to have feelings for your once homeland and relatives here. Always bear in mind, the ideals that we are struggling for, are also for them. Hope you can at least comprehend that none here are fighting for personal gains. Do not be quick tempered and get too ‘pissed off’ so easily, we treasure your concerns from afar. May you have a better tomorrow in the US.

patriot.

Amanda

>>
why keep repeating the point that ministers are earning a million dollars ?
>>

If you are hired by the company for a million dollars to be the CEO, you think it is not justified the shareholders should size you up every now and then?

>>
. I hope this shows a greater distinction between “individual success” and the “team(national) interest”.
>>

Who defines what is “national interest”? The people or a small group of powerful elites? The hegemony to define things cannot be underestimated. History is littered with examples of powerful elites defining “national” interest. We all know what happened in Myanmar and Zimbabwe.

>>
cannot carry on a conversation in a dignified and polite manner..
>>

BUT Amanda says: “stupid questions deserve stupid answers”
Hmm.. then i think we have very different notions of “dignified” and “polite” i think.

>>
Of course, I should have realized that theonlinecitizen tends to attract more of the people who do not like the government’s policies, so I guess I should have expected a relatively hostile response from other commenters and forum users. But I stand by my opinions.
>>

Why paint others as biased and negative? Others’ opinion are as good as yours and does not warrant your disparaging castigation of “stupid question deserves stupid answers”. Talk about double standards.

I guess from this exchange, many can judge for themselves who are those who are holding to strong partisan perspectives. Someone’s posts are so brilliant such that they can be mistaken to be electioneering speeches.

Patriot,
It is late now, but I will give you a short reply.

->Due to the distance, cultural and political differences between where you are and here, I doubt you can understand much of Singapore.

yes, you are right. I don’t deny that I may be out of touch with Singapore’s sociopolitical situation having been out of the country for a period of time.

To all other questioners demanding replies from me:
” Go ask your million dollar minister” – I’m not your million dollar minister.

last comment,
amanda

patriot,

PS. oh, i also meant to say that you are entitled to your own view, as I am entitled to mine, just like any other of the forumers here. I don’t have to persuade you, you don’t have to persuade me.

regards.

On “stupid questions deserve stupid answers”, consider giving the top prize to Ng Eng Hen for his reply in parliament (Sitting Date: 17 Mar 2003, http://wp-in-parliament.blogspot.com/2003_03_01_archive.html):

Mr Low Thia Khiang: A further clarification. So what is exactly the definition, or is there no definition of foreign talent? Is an EP holder considered as a foreign talent or just a foreign worker?

[EP: employment pass]

Dr Ng Eng Hen: Sir, “foreign” means not local, and “talent” means the opposite of non-talented.

I feel Ng showed utter disrespect for parliament.

Bye, bye amanda!

We may not see your comments anymore, but for the collective good of the World, may we on top of good behaviours, do our best to contribute for the betterments of livings anywhere in the World.

Best Regards:

patriot.

Amanda says:

“Alright, I agree that the brick wall analogy was not that well chosen. But the main point of the analogy is to show you that parts and the whole are different.”

That parts and the whole can have different properties is not in dispute. Actually, you sparked off this exchange with your blatant use of the word “rather” in these two statements:

1. “Rather, it should put in broadly scope plans that seek to maximize the collective success of Singapore as a nation rather than of individual people.”

2. “The government should take care of the national interest rather than individual people.”

Firstly, I am not convinced that the “success” of a nation is a completely emergent property that is conceptually different from the “success” of individuals. It is not like “consciousness” which cannot be reduced to the component level. For example, the “wealth” of a nation is measured in the same dollars and cents as the “wealth” which is familiar to an individual.

Second, I am not convinced that success at the national level is divorced from the additive success of individual citizens. Oddly enough, you seem to be aware of this when you use the term “collective success”.

It is a fact of life that some people will benefit more and some benefit less from the growth of a nation. That is not in dispute.

The key issue of contention is whether the pronouncement of success at the national level is based on the modest success stories of many people, or the massive success of only a few people, while many others stagnate or suffer. I think that many contributors to this discussion do not consider the latter scenario as genuinely successful.

This is not a minor matter. Singaporeans from all walks of life are anxious about the implications of this bright future that we are being hurtled towards.

“Here is another example, this year the New York Giants won the American superbowl, the biggest achievement in American Football. That is success for the team.

On the other hand, if you were a an individual football player, presumably individual success might be the chance to earn more money or the chance to start every game. (correct me if instead players want to earn as little as possible and start as little as possible). So the coach, would have to make pragmatic decisions to increase the chances of the team winning. That is similar to the role of the government. If the coach thinks a player is making a mess, he should drop the player for the good of the team. That would not be very “successful” of the player. I hope this shows a greater distinction between “individual success” and the “team(national) interest”. ”

Yes, this is a better analogy.

However, notice that the success of the team is not divorced from the success of individual players – it is mutually interdependent.

Using your analogy, I’ll try to illustrate the concerns of many commenters in this post:

Imagine a coach of a certain city football team promising to the players that his leadership will help them win big time.

Due to the brilliant strategy of the coach, they initially achieve a winning streak which increases the profile and reputation of the team.

As a result, they face tougher and tougher competitors until they are poised to compete at the national level.

While the players have been performing well so far, the coach has much higher aspirations and pushes them harder and harder. The coach intends to train one of the top teams in the country.

The players don’t mind because they have individually gained much fame and wealth from the success of the team. Of course, the coach has also benefited greatly, in fact many coaches from other teams often come to him for advice.

Then, one day the coach decides to replace some of his players with star players from another city. At first this went unnoticed because the players who were swopped out were considered within the team to be poor performers anyway. In addition, the presence of the star players boosted the overall strength of the team.

Then gradually, as the competition became stiffer and the stakes raised higher, the coach became increasingly dissatisfied with the original players. More and more of them were replaced. The remaining players started to become concerned and approached the coach for clarifications.

They reminded the coach that his initial promise is to help the players win, and not to ditch them when they can no longer keep up with his rising expectations. The coach assured them that his obligation has always remained the same: to help players of his TEAM to win big time.

Star players may have come from another city, even a rival city, but they are 100% undisputed members of the TEAM.

There is no mistake.

When they protested that this approach will eventually compromise their position, the coach reminded them not to be so narrow-minded and take a broader view – after all the team was performing superbly and headed towards a bright future.

And since the team is a great success, the coach decided to reward himself and the best performing players with top dollar that is commensurate with national norms.

Players who are dissatisfied with this arrangement has two choices.

Those who feel qualified to teach a national-level coach how to coach a football team can always approach him directly with their suggestions.

Or they can leave the team. It is completely fair.

But yet the original players did not feel reassured by this.

Instead, they felt even more anxious and insecure.

And so, only one question remains for you, Amanda.

I assure you it is not a stupid question.

Perhaps you can never understand how it would feel like to be one of the original city players in the team, since you were one of those who left.

But if you had stayed behind, because you were not a “quitter” as the coach had labelled you, because you were doing your best, because you gave half a flying duck about what concerns your fellow players –

If you realize that YOU were going to be the next player to be switched out, would you greet this shining future with a smile?

Amanda

>>
To all other questioners demanding replies from me:
” Go ask your million dollar minister” – I’m not your million dollar minister.
>>

Eh? I thought you have all the answers when you criticized and chastised other commentators as “vague” and “having no plans”.

And by the way, is that suppose to be “stupid” answer to our “stupid” questions as well?

All said and done, PAP and their supporters have still not shown how PUBLIC funds have been used.

Where is the detailed statement, which shows the movement of all dollars of the public funds?

Coming up with charts is NOT eqivalent to giving a detailed report.

Since public funds are involved, we as citizens, have the RIGHT TO KNOW how every single dollar is spent and transacted – including the transfer of funds from the MAS to GIC and vice-versa – including where MAS got those funds from – taxes? Our CPF?

Government keeps saying our CPF is SAFE and untouched. Without transparency and disclosure of statements, HOW DO WE KNOW?

Remember – OTC tried to get those details (that’s his job, remember?), yet he was prevented from doing so by the government!

So why is our current president paid close to $4 million for? To act dignified and entertain foreign guests? What are his duties?

204) Lim Leng Hiong on June 30th, 2008 1.56 pm

Clap, clap, clap. Wow man, you have struck the nail.

Everyone player is replaceable except the coach. Every player is rewarded / compensated if it fits the plan of the coach who calls the shot. Once the utility units of the players have been expended and not too good for the next level of the game plan, they are thrown aside.

@Sgcynic,

I discuss this high pay topic ocassionally with my friends here and their kids during our weekend gathering. My friends too asked me the same question you posted here. One of their kids spontaneously came up with this brilliant answer. May be they are paid to count beans. You see, if you take their annual base and divide it over the population you get the following:
4/4.5=0.888 cents a piece
3.67/4.5=0.812 cents a piece
2.67/4.5=0.593 cents a piece
So it is actually hardwork to add up all these cents. Very tiring you know, so no time left.lor to do other things.

Don’t take it seriously.

Donny Woo says:

“Clap, clap, clap. Wow man, you have struck the nail.”

Thanks. It is almost trite to emphasize that a society will be evaluated by the way it treats its weakest and most disadvantaged.

People who are in the privileged positions of power should take note.

If you are not willing to budge an inch on our political freedom or freedom of expression, then so be it.

But please do not rub it in our faces by saying that Singaporeans don’t care about freedom, don’t care about rights, and only want economic growth.

If you are not willing to spend a second to reconsider the extent of our foreign talent policy, then so be it.

But please do not rub it in our faces by producing article after article after article in the mainstream media about how wise the policy is and how amazingly good the foreign workers are.

If you are not willing to spare a cent to help the poor elderly workers, then so be it.

But please don’t …DON’T… rub it in our faces by saying that they have the “dignity of employment”.

The anxiety about the future is shared by Singaporeans from all walks of life.

Nobody is immune. Nobody is indispensible. No matter how high you feel your position is, no matter how good you think you are, no matter how secure you think your job is, there will definitely be someone somewhere better, faster and cheaper than you.

Some flexibility in the policies will help ease the tension of the people.

Constantly testing their patience will not.

Dear Lim Leng Hiong;

give us more of your wisdoms.

We need more holistic guidances to progress wholesomely.

patriot.

Lim Leng Hiong,
well said !

“Nobody is immune. Nobody is indispensible. ”
Unfortunately there is a senile old fart who believe otherwise, and give empty inspiration and security to his coffers, pinkish clown son and the Holy Jinx.
The way LKY speak is pretty obvious, he is trembling with fear and uncertainty, he no longer inspire anyone in Singapore because the internet has exposed him to nothing but a cowardice. Can anyone not see his coffers pretend to be loyal to his party because of $$$$$$. He lack the security and believe that anyone not with him in ministry is against him. Therefore, we see all walks of PAP life giving bullshit and cowdung to the laymen. Utter nonsense for more than four decades when the ruling party perform their own check and balance, and manipulate the election. Freak government.

This LKY reminds me of Emperor Qin Shi Huang who will remove and destroy anyone that against him because he fear for his insecurity and legacy.

In a true democracy, these bunch of money grabbing so called leaders we have here would have been voted out. Look at Kevin Rudd. Australia’s leaders are so paid less than ours, But when he came to office, he immediately cut his ministers’ pay. Suprisingly, there is alway no shortage of people coming forward to stand for elections to serve the people. Ours have to be invited to tea and guaranteed of voted in (thru’ their wicked GRC scheme), as revealed by GCT.
How much more respect can the citizens accord them?

Hi Lim Leng Hiong,

Hope you will contribute your writing and thoughts to TOC, just like Ho Sze Hian, Tan Kin Lian and others. TOC could well be the best source of news platform that ones will not hear the truth from our main stream media.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2008/06.05/99-rowlingspeech.html

If the people who have the voice do not speak up for the poorer and disadvantaged in its society, the country would be nothing.

Run by the elites, for the elites.

I applaud the writers of TOC and bloggers who speak up and speak out. Amanda would much prefer that we all keep quiet and move on.
It happened! What to do?
Yes, CPF annuity happened, and many people will get caught that the CPF goalpost from 1960s will move and move and the minimum sum scheme has recently increased and all those at age 55 will not get to see the fruits of their savings and will not be able to spend it. How many people are fully aware of this?
For this, I am proud of Chee Soon Juan. and ashamed of Amanda and the likes of her.

the fact that while CPF was meantime to be a success, it has now become a national fact that it is broken and is a national joke. While GIC and Temasek get high returns, these were not ploughed back to its citizens as returns to their CPF – it was left in the National Reserves.
Now we are stuck with insufficient money for our retirement, because our govt has abuse us of our returns in GIC / Temasek. And to fix this national shame in CPF, the 80 PAP member have passed the CPF Life to hold on to our money further, and to hold on to our minimum sum scheme. In the meantime, recently the National Development Minister Mah has openly declared that HDB flats will continue to be subsidised from market rate, not from cost price. And this means lesser money in your retirement account to pay for these sky high public housing! I pity our kids in future.

This HDB subsidy thing is something his worthy opponent Chiam See Tong mentioned years ago – yes that chap with 5 o level passes, who soundly beat Mah Bow Tan in his hey days! Something which PAP have hidden for years in parliament….

To Patriot and Edn:

Glad that you like my writings, I prefer to write about science. I’ll comment at the TOC occasionally.

Lim Leng Hiong,
You have earned my respect.

It is very difficult to walk in Singapore. It is even tougher to breathe in Singapore. Sometime, I am even worried for the younger generations. The ever increasing prices of the necessities but the salary of the low skill workers have stagnant or even dipped worries me.

Many rich people failed to have any idea of how people tighten their belts to curb inflation. My dad does not earn much, hence, can consider myself in this group of people. Perhaps what make me looks better then others is to have access to internet.

Economic theory talks about constraints, trade off, opportunity cost and blablabla… Hence, with the extra entertainment, what I see on my dinning table would be mostly vegetables with few pieces of meat and a bowl of rice.

People like Amanda who fails to put herself into the Poor’s shoes is understandable however she has gone overboard. She fails to understand each individual has their own constraints and they are also fighting for a breathing space so please don’t penalize low skilled workers by suppressing their wage. To most economist, minimum wage is a bad idea as the trade off is the increase in unemployment rate. I believe the main point is to help these unfortunate ones. Everyone plays a part for the success of the county and shall not be forgotten when these people have retired. These retirees should be recognized and remunerates them reasonably well if they decided to continue to contribute to the economy as most of the time, good economy accompanies inflation.

204) Lim Leng Hiong on June 30th, 2008 1.56 pm

–>If you realize that YOU were going to be the next player to be switched out, would you greet this shining future with a smile?

I do not know what a football player would feel.

But if put in a workplace context, say, if I believe there is a good chance that I would be laid off by my firm, I would definitely be worried and start looking for alternatives (eg. to search for other jobs).

So the answer to your question is no, I would be worried.

to qualify the above answer,

but I would not blame the firm if they can find someone better than me, unless the decision to lay me off is a matter of favoritism or biasness.

204) Lim Leng Hiong on June 30th, 2008 1.56 pm

also, if I haven’t mentioned yet, I think your response was well written. It helps me sort of see things from your point of view.

204 Lim Heng Hiong
Now I could say that I appreciate the story of “The Emperor who had on clothes on”. By and large, our society’s values have been eroded through coveting more wealth and more economic growth. It undoubtly painted a picture of wrong placement of values in every aspect of our lives. Thank you for painting the picture so detailed and candidly. Indeed, our society needs more such “little boy” to reflect reality.

Amanda

>>
but I would not blame the firm if they can find someone better than me, unless the decision to lay me off is a matter of favoritism or biasness
>>

What about you being retrenched simply because of your age? Often times, it is not not even a case of competency. If the firm can hire someone younger, why not? Be in touch with the reality of ageism and its effects on older workers.

The ST today has reported the failure of the PAP again – to raise the living standards of the citizens – especially those in the bottom of the food chain – Cleaners / attendants etc.

That is why those who can speak out must speak out and remind the government of its promises.

Swiss standard of living – but we must ignore old 70 year old who work for the dignity of employment – what ? Say that again? I heard the Chee Siok Chin vs Davinder Singh and I almost threw up. (I would not put Lee Hsien Loong cos he was silent most of the time :)

“And all our leaders could tell us is for us to upgrade, upgrade! They are taking us, the Citizenry, as morons. They think we are blind to those professionals and managers getting displaced, replaced and retrenched, became jobless, went into taxi driving, security job that pay them peanuts. Why are these people suffering such fates? THE FAULTS LIE WITH NATIONAL POLICIES THAT HAVE BEEN AND BEING DISHED ONTO US, SHOVED ONTO US!

DOES ANYONE WANTS TO UPGRADE TO WHERE THE SAID PROFESSIONALS AND MANAGERS WERE AND SUFFERS THEIR FATES, AFTER SPENDING MONEY AND TIME AND NEGLECTING ONES’ FAMILY IN THE PURSUIT OF UPGRADING?”

May I add here that many job applicants are rejected because they are ‘over qualified’ and many that were retrenched were because their pays were much higher than the many new candidates, including foreigners available in the market who are able to replace them(current employees) at a much lower cost(salary).

This is a very vicious development, which of not arrested, could result in serious turmoil in time to come.

patriot.

Correction to ‘of not arrested’ to ‘if not arrested’.

My apology.

patriot.

Just thought i point this out.

“A country gets the Govt it deserves. ”
-Good Grief

And they probably deserve Mugabe. Good lord.

How apt.

Perhaps it will only take a reputable western reporter to shame the govt into action. How can we (even more so as Asians) allow our elderly citizens to work so hard for so little. Where is the compassion in our society? Our leaders are gourging themselves silly while our elderly are living from hand to mouth. I think elderly pension is the way to go. It’s not free lunch but one that shows who we are as a nation. A nation that truly cares for its unfortunate and less capable elder citizens. Of course there will not be any ROE on this, God Forbid! If the leaders don’t have the vision or can’t be bothered, let me put it in another way. How about treating it as a ROE that gives soft power and moral authority to a government that sends a clear signal that a nation that cares for its people is a nation that is worth belonging to. We desperately need to be closely bonded as a nation, lest we get torn apart by materialism and self-centeredness. For a govt that takes pride in taking the best practices from other developed nations, this is worth considering. In fact, as our nation rapidly ages in the not too distant future, we may not have a choice at all.

To Tiredman and Singaporespirit:

Thank you for your kind comments. I hope you found the illustration to be clear and accurately reflect ground sentiments.

To Amanda:

I’m that you can see our perspective. The anxiety is real and nobody wants to keep running in an accelerating treadmill, certainly not when people have reached their 60s and 70s.

Some professionals believe that they are immune. Managers believe that they are immune. Civil servants believe that they are immune.

Just keep your head down, keep quiet and follow instructions. Everything will be OK.

The reality is that nobody is immune, because nobody, not even the government, can predict the future.

If we don’t speak up for the elderly poor today, then one day when some of us end up as elderly poor, there will be no one left to speak for us.

Someone (laserpointer) finally fell for the flame bait which I provocatively included in my earlier post. Yes, a country gets the Govt it deserves. If good people do not rise up when they feel that something is wrong, regardless of the cost to themselves, then they really do deserve the Govt they have.

Aquino proved that. The people in the former Soviet Union also proved that if necessary, change can be brought about by the people.

If some of you think that our situation can by any stretch of the imagination be likened to Marcos/Aquino or pre-Gorbachev USSR, then… well, there’s always one in every crowd. I’m certain that the vast majority of Singaporeans do not think so.

So in the final analysis, yes, a country deserves its Govt if you pull-back and consider all the things that the country-folk can do to change its Govt. It runs the entire continuum — from providing feedback and participating in discussions, to offering oneself up for public office regardless of personal cost, to… well… to whatever it takes if the situation demands it.

All those that are saying that the Govt is somehow directly responsible for even white-collar jobs going to the foreigner are in essence pushing for a protectionist approach, which in today’s globalised economy, is really like spooning water out of the ocean with a leaky teaspoon. There are forces at work that are far greater than any one or several Govts. Thomas Friedman discussed it a lot in Lexus and the Olive Tree, and The World is Flat. These forces are (probably) unstoppable, and people need to adjust to change because change is the only constant.

Remember that other little bestseller, Who Moved My Cheese? In that book, the ones that thought that the mountain of cheese will always be there, and will always be sufficient, will ultimately find out that it is finite. The ones that wander further afield, looking for alternatives, and planning for tomorrow, will actually have a future.

Those lamenting their loss of jobs — do check (I’m not saying you haven’t) what WDA has to offer. There may be things there that would surprise you. Those lamenting others’ loss of jobs without assessing what options and backups (short of handouts) are in place, could do well to do some research *first*.

There. I’ve emerged from observing, largely because the flamebait I put in was finally taken.

[...] Salaries: Get Rich or Die Tryin – TOC: Whose future is “shining”, really? [...]

Let’s be more realistic.
I have read many comments about how good our government was that turned an island from a fishing village to what it is today. I am grateful for that. However, that was a very long time ago. The ministers back then should be rewarded adequately for the progressed they had made. Most of the current ministers were not even born during that era. So not logical to use this arguement to justify their pay rise.

“Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam has warned that Singapore could face another round of inflation if companies increase wages to help workers cope with the higher cost of living today. ” ~quoted from CNA

I would like him to explain which data did he gathered to make such a statement. From my observation, many families in singapore are barely struggling to survive because of the higher cost of living. Some of us dont even have savings. Every month income goes directly to paying for all the bills. I mean if the inflation was due to the purchases of luxury goods, his comments would be justified. Right now we are all facing core inflation on our daily necessities.

IMHO, i think the PAP had lost it’s plot and the trust of many singaporeans.

I am just dying for them to announce their 3rd pay hike for ministers.

I am just dying for them to do that.

I hope they will do that as soon as possible.

That will be the end of the PAP.

A bunch of highly-paid idiots. What have they done since winning the elections in 2006?

F1?

Casino?

Singapore Flyer?

Increase their own pay TWICE already?

Low Thia Khiang is right: Pay peanuts get monkeys.

Pay bananas STILL get monkeys!

[...] i’ll have to work til i grow old, and still work until i die take a look at this article by Andrew Loh in the TOC for a peek at what’s going on now. Its no wonder suicide rates for [...]

[...] – Whose Future Is “Shining” ? by The Online Citizen [...]

Excuse me folks….

the gov’t is given the mandate to rule….

i don’t remember agreeing to the the gov’t using the monies tax direct / indirect for investing public funds….and the gov’t even if it uses these monies for investment, should they not check or re-vet with the mandate givers which in this case the citizens of singapore…

it seems the mandate given by the mandate givers [us] allow the gov’t to do as they please without even bothering to at least brief or justify their policies with the citizens of singapore.

We elected the bloody gov’t…and we have the goddam right as mandate givers to ask and question the gov’t…

to those in the forum who mention we are whiners or ask too much…please do kindly remember we voted [be it willingly or unwillingly] do have the right query, to question, to ask, to raise concern and to DEMAND as we gave them the mandate…even citizens who did not vote for the gov’t has the same rights to question and raise concerns and ask and demand from the gov’t too.

To those who says or said we are lucky, we are the best and we should know better….remember the citizens of singapore gave them the mandate…thus they have to answer and do well for the citizens of singapore.

To those who are not satisfied or feel let down by the gov’t and if able to cast your vote…

please do the right thing…not only for yourselves but also for your kids and future generation of kids…we should work with a gov’t that works with its citizens and both parties leverage on each other…when a gov’t does not do that for its citizens [majority 66% = mandate givers] and 30+% non-mandate citizen givers…then please.vote such a self serving and uncaring gov’t out.

Gov’t will think we are ungrateful and disloyal….but the gov’t must remember…how many citizens over the 44 years contributed to singapore well being…and how many citizens made sacrifices over the 44 years too to singapore…without the citizens in the first place who stay and fought it out…where will singapore and the gov’t be….

the gov’t has forgotten its citizens….and it is up to the citizens of singapore do decide for better and for worse.