Nothing surprising to hear that youths feel like leaving the country.

One other point which I might wish to bring up here with regards to citizenship, is the number of people that actually gave up SG citizenships for another at the age of 21.

I do have a few friends who actually gave up their Singapore citizenship at the age of 21, some in University, while some even decided so before they come to age. Even their parents ask them to give up SG citizenship. Some reasons I heard were, stressful workplace, stressful living, no need to go NS and to just to name a few.

Can we ask, why are parents even asking their kids to do this?
Does country loyalty still commands a place in youths today?
How do we define citizenships in the years to come?

Many young people want to emigrate because they find the price of car and housing to be too high.

At one time, it was car that was too expensive. In recent years, the cost of housing has also become too costly. Even HDB flat can take away more than five years of the family income.

Sze Han

We should ask, Is Singapore a great place to live for our own citizens? If the survey shows that half our teens want to leave then something is terribly wrong with the whole system and the difficulty of keeping people here.
Is Singapore turning / made into a place for expatriates only. I think it is, look at the numbers coming here to work and eventually settling permanently.
One of my sisters is living in the US for 10 years and the youngest brother and wife has got PR status to live in Australia while another brother is making plans to leave too. Are they quitters? No I do not think so, the system has made them quit. Mind you they are qualified with jobs here.

it good to emigrate and travel to whole worlds where i got moneys i will support opposition party where it will give me more money to gamble and place bets in 4d ,toto ,big sweeps ,car ,horse racing ,stock market!!

Do you really feel what I’ve posted require’s moderation, censorship perhaps?
I’ve printed out the pages with and without the caution remark. Perhaps we should leave it to netizens to pass judgement.

Maybe test is not whether Singaporeans give up the citizenship but whether their hearts are still with Singapore. Many Singaporeans I know of will not give up the Singapore citizenship initially because they want to hedge the risk. Anything wrong with other countries, they can at least return to Singapore and moreover, their parents and friends are in Singapore. This is pragmatic approach that many Singaporeans take. So they actually prefer PR status in other countries and will continue to live as long as other country does not force them to make a choice to take up citizenship. But it can be said that the person is already considered brought over as citizen if he stay in other countries for more than 3 years.In a matter of years, majority will choose to give up citizenship since they already adapted to life of freedom, lifestyle and culture.

pap 杀人放火 let boycott pap ok

Just found out the price increased by 25%!

pap 杀人放火！

i think i better stick to opposition partys 。

let’s boycott pap ok ， shall we?

“Just found out the price increased by 25%!”
What price ?

once chose pap everything increases like that it like a daylight robbery when choose opposition party it might decrease ? and opposition partys will increase the salary

hope opposition party will decrease it in everythings !!

daniel i mean the things that i brought

The system made them quit? Well, in that case we must have a better system then to make them stay. A system whereby are comfortable and friendly, with a lot of space to maneuver and not threatened and pressurized by the influx of expatriates squeezing in the same space and make it so suffocated for the local to breath.

For talented Singaporean, they should be encouraged to stay or else we will lose the good one and left with the inferior and minnows. On top of that skilled and unskilled foreign workers and also domestic maids are in the thousands in Singapore already. So indirectly the demographic population had shifted tremendously by the increase numbers of these foreign workers. Now you go anywhere in Singapore you can see these alien everywhere taking up the same spaces sharing with Singaporeans.

I think Singapore is too small to cater for a large number of aliens and the government should keep track with the situation to avoid over flooding with people like a ‘Packed Sardine’.in a tin can.

Sze Hian,

You asked, “In the 1990 population census, the Singapore diaspora was 36,000. What is this statistic in the most recent population census?”

A clue may be found here: In February 2008, the Dept of Statistics issued a press release saying that they had “refined” the population statistics to exclude Singaporeans who have spent more than 12 months living abroad, in line with international statistical standards.

I picked up that bit of news then and refered to it in my article Daydreams of a Way Station (www.yawningbread.org/arch_2008/yax-843.htm).

Looking at the article I wrote, you’ll find a paragraph saying,

QUOTE:
As if to underscore this demographic nightmare, the Department of Statistics announced earlier this month that they had shaved 90,000 people off the figure for Singapore’s population of citizens and permanent residents, about 2.5 percent of the total. These 90,000 were those who had been away for 12 months or more, and thus were no longer considered ordinarily resident in Singapore.
ENDQUOTE

Thus, we have 90,000 citizens and PRs who have not lived in Singapore for more than 12 months. I suppose you could call them the diaspora.

Now, what’s interesting is this. My February 2008 essay referenced and hyperlinked to the Press Statement from the Dept of Statistics. That hyperlink (http://www.singstat.gov.sg/news/news/respopest.pdf) is still active.

However, nowhere in that Press Statement do you now see the figure of 90,000. You only see the total resident population after adjustment. Not the total before adjustment, not the quantum of adjustment.

I didn’t imagine the figure of 90,000 out of thin air. I got it from the original Press Statement. But now the Statement has been surreptitiously amended and the figure has been hidden. Why?

Moby – We Are All Made Of Stars
We Are All Made Of Stars

Growing in numbers
Growing in speed
Can’t fight the future
Can’t fight what I see

People they come together
People they fall apart
No one can stop us now
‘Cos we are all made of stars

Efforts of lovers
Left in my mind
I sing in the reaches
We’ll see what we find

People they come together
People they fall apart
No one can stop us now
‘Cos we are all made of stars
People they come together
And people they fall apart
No one can stop us now
‘Cos we are all made of stars

Slow so slow come come
Someone come come come
Even love is a goin’ ’round
Bad noise goin’ round

Slowly rebuilding
I feel it in me
Growing in numbers
Growing in peace

People they come together
And people they fall apart
No one can stop us now
‘Cos we are all made of stars
People they come together
People they fall apart
No one can stop us now
‘Cos we are all made of stars

People they come together
(People they come together)
People they fall apart
(People they fall apart)
No one can stop us now
(No one can stop us now)
‘Cos we are all made of stars
(We are all made of stars)

We are all made of stars
(People they come together)
We are all made of stars
(People they fall apart)
We are all made of stars
(No one can stop us now)
We are all made of stars
(We are all made of stars)
opposition party hip hip huarry 3 cheer for reform party

not realizing it, they feel insecure in a city well known for its security. but can you blame them for not wanting to be part of a growing number of workaholics( no retirement to live meaningful lives) in such a small piece of tightly reigned land?

all the nice buildings and facilities and little clever touches to little spaces will not contain the insecurity brought on and created by the rulers.

we are the undoing of our clever successes.

despite all the progress and wealth, this country people just do not know how to connect with each other.

many factors, from social engineering to political hegemony, have led to our superficiality as a people.

naturally, a thirsty soul seeks after distant oasis.

seeking for a more humane existence where people are cherished, respected and value for who they are and not be measured by grades, performance index, awards and your bank account.

i seriously doubt you can be a humane society with a price tag/grade on someone’s soul.

somehow, even the compassion/generosity that trickles down the upper echelon of society is so…..staged if not, degrading.

and why not in a city where the religion of wealth justifies the standing of the enterprising ministers of the word or rather, world?

I kept thinking about this post. See, as long as the outflow is less than the inflow our population will continue to grow, and this isnt necessarily a bad thing I guess. But there is more to it than just the meritorious numbers. When disappointed, disillusioned emigrees give up their citizenships, they not only surrender their birth rights but likely their dissenting votes as well. That could be a plus or minus, depending on where one stands. The new immigrants however, come in with feelings of gratitude, indebtedness and hearts that are likely placed in the “right place”. This means that those with the strategy in place to embrace and extend their influence early in the fast growing segment of potential new voters has the first mover advantage to gain their votes lateron. It also meant that the oppositions will have to examine this issue closely and possibly sing the same tune somewhere down the line..

“See, as long as the outflow is less than the inflow our population will continue to grow, ”
What is the quality of inflow ? Is the quality of outflow higher than inflow ?

” The new immigrants however, come in with feelings of gratitude, indebtedness and hearts that are likely placed in the “right place”.
REally ? You should have to spoken to those immigrants. The immigrants are likely to tell you good things about our gov but their action speak otherwise. To them, what they speak is more important than their action. The immigrants are not stupid as the gov think. These immigrants know what in store of them. They are just as pragmatic as our gov. Remember the offspring of these immigrants who become citizen in Singapore will become the nemesis for the gov. It is foolish of gov to think that foreigners are lot easier to control than subservient Singaporean. Of course, gov don’t really care after all money speak louder than words. In a few years when the foreigners pose a threat, those ministers and gahmen are just likely to disappear from Singaporean as well. After all why will one risk his life if he can’t enjoy his wealth.

Dear Alex

Thanks a million for another discovery of Disappearing Statictics

Maybe we should pen an article together on Disappear Statistics

So, unlike your last article in TOC – that I gobble up statistics – you are great at it too!

Ha Ha

With warmest regards

Leong Sze Hian

Singapore is a safe place and it has a solid education system. but the relentless need to “have more”, “be perfect” and drive to make everything better is just driving everybody crazy. we cannot sit down and smell the flowers, because good is not enough, better can still get better, there is no best!

so we ask, where are we going? and we see the bloated paychecks of CEOs and ministers, PM/SMs who tag their paychecks to these CEOs. is there any wonder why we are building a society that is more capitalistic than US? we have a worse gini ratio than US, just imagine.

we have seen the market failures in US, and the economy tumbling. In Singapore, some of our GLC/Temasek losses cannot be seen and felt, because they do not have the obligation of normal listed companies to come clean. What they can do is to get more capital, which can be easily achieved by raising prices all across the boards. Temasek is the parent company of so many essential goods and services in Singapore, just imagine collecting that money to boost their capital…..

I have been very proud of being a Singapore citizen, I do not hesitate to educate people about the achievements of Singapore. But on the other hand, can i identify with the country that i grew up in, but now being so foreign to me? I always feel like i’m a tourist in Singapore, because of the sheer number of foreigners. Buildings that I identified with are torn down and made way for “economic reasons”. (i really liked that red brick architecture of the central library)

I have not thought about going as far as renouncing citizenship, but I will try to stay away as long as I can. Yes, I miss my friends and family and the food here, but my soul feels more rested elsewhere.

I cannot tahan to feel like 2nd class citizen in my own country, in that case, i might as well be 2nd class elsewhere, at least that’s justified. Also, if I were made to feel like a foreigner in my own country, kthxbye, I can feel that anywhere anyways.

Every day, when you open the papers, you generally get bombarded by reports or news of two kinds of people.

One kind is your stereotypical successful people(businessmen, academics, sportsmen, celebrities etc ) including such preachers as your esteem leaders.

The other extreme type covers your regular crooks or law breakers and stories of losers.

Well you say, what so unusual about that?

Nothing really except for the subtle and constant battling of the minds with ‘carrot and stick’.

After some time, consciously or unconsciously, the people will form two dimensional views about life and themselves which is…..either one should behave like donkeys or one should swing like monkeys from place to place!

And you know what, those in between the two stereotypical types of people will eventually fit into either one of these extreme molds.

In other words, anything between the two molds has no economic significance and is to be discarded!

It is a tough act to leave; I have seen friends go and then return.
But with some 90,000 away yearly, something must be amiss and it is a serious matter for Singapore’s future.
If it is let it be, then Singapore will very soon be swamped with hordes of hungry people, (Philip Yeo will smile) caucasians and FTs at all levels of the workforce.
I have asked some “FT “- why come here ? They say “Singapore is cheaper compared to their home countries in Australia, EU, etc, and they are treated first class here, and they get the girls”………………..
A tribute to Dr Tan Cheng Bock come to mind.
For the 90,000 or so, being second class elsewhere seems not to be an issue as some say “second class is already here for most Singaporeans”

Don’t mean to be a spoilsport, but I think the author has misrepresented Ms Sylvia Lim by calling her an MP and not an NMP.

lee kuan yew and his fellow member of pap is going down hahahahhehehhhoho

The truth is the Singapore Police Force already has the statistics.

Every country requires some form of police clearance when granting long term visas. In Singapore, CID issues a Certificate of no criminal conduct. Practically every person trying to get a long term visa in another country will have to apply for one and that includes the family members as well.

The numbers are there. If the minister of home affairs doesn’t know about this, then he truly is clueless about the affairs of the departments in his ministry. If he does, then he’s just a liar.

Mr Tan Kin LIan,

I think that there is more to just the high prices of cars and houses that are driving the young and capable away from Singapore.

I wonder why no statistics are available about the exodus and self-imposed exiles of SIN-ans and the inflow of foreigners. The charges levied on immigrant applications to most western countries including Australia and NZ are increasing steeply and the entry door isn’t that open as a couple of decades ago. I wonder how much does the SIN government collect from each would-be immigrant application?

I recalled prior to 1989 there was some understanding between governments, in particular with developed countries, not to tap SIN talents and highly skilled professionals and academics as SIN was then a relatively developing nation. The year 1989 was an unprecedented year for the Canadian Embassy in SIN to receive such a high volume of applications for immigration to Canada. That was perhaps the turning point for the exodus to take place and hence, the labelling of “quitters” and “stayers” came about. Then came the big bang of TWP, PYK, FS, DVN, and a number of academics and professionals, the beginning of the self-imposed SIN exiles.

I do not see the return of the Diaspora until either the current government makes a radical change to its Constitution for a true democracy, the separation of powers of the Executive and the Judiciary, its political ideology of Meritocracy creating a Mandarin Class of Elites, a Culture of unprecedented Monetary Entitlements for public office and public servants, a social Class Divide among the different levels of society as a whole OR a new people-powered, people-centered government comes into power.

Globalization and the status quo adopted by the present PAP’s virtually one-party government system will not sustain the foreseeable future of SIN for long. It takes years for a civilization to develop from one world to another depending on a host of factors, educational, social, cultural, political, economic, religious, etc conducive for human development and progress.

Hopefully, a NEW CHANGE in SIN will take place prior to the proposed change by the rogue regime in Burma in 2010 so that it will eclpse the rising moon of the Burmese military junta.

[...] Singaporeans, A Dying Breed – TOC: Best place to live in but how many are leaving? [...]

Let’s phrase it the other way round. Assuming you (including your related ones)have the ability to choose where you want to reside.

What do you find interesting or worthy in Singapore that makes you stay on?

For some of us, it is clear at moment, the choice is not there to be made. So, meanwhile just have to bit the bullet and hope for things to change for the better.

On the other hand, most who emigrated or planning to had reasons that I think will not deviate from some the following values:

1) Total freedom to express and speak without a tint of fear attached (i.e. politically speaking)
2) Life is more than just paper and money chasing.
3) For betterment of future generation. Birth Rights of a person is largely depending on their parent’s choice. Most would be asking, would I want my future generation to follow my foot steps since now I have the ability to make that change for them?
4) How much more effort do I need to put in to achieve a meaningful living (on each personal value) when it is time to retire?

Last but not least. Do I feel it’s worth to continuing contributing to the progress of the country where I choose to reside?

There are obviously other minor reasons, the nice to have and like in all things, it cuts both ways. However, when the positives out weigh the negatives it is not too hard to decide when you had your values written down and when you are at a position to decide.

3) ACACIA on August 3rd, 2008 10.59 pm

I concur.

“Best place to live” ?

For who and polled by who ? on which day (opinions change with time)?

Now, I know there is such thing as Dual-Citizenship.

Could someone here let me know if that term means

a country can grant a migrant a citizenship even when he never gives up the citizenship of his birthplace so that he can still vote for his country of birth?

Is that not a concern for some people? ha ha ha.

Exactly how many have applied for citizenship overseas, that means, including those who have applied but not approval yet received? Is it more than 1000 per year? Being kia su, kia si and kia sai, I do not want to loose out on whats happening. trends and opportunities.

A very very happy nday for all. ha ha ha.

The reason why Singaporeans want to leave is very simple: they don’t want to feel like second-class citizens in a first-class city. Why second-class? Because every Singaporeans have to sacrifice so much to earn their breads and butter and have a roof over their head and at the end of the day, all these are taken away from you (your HDB home after 95 years, your CPF money sooner of later goes to the state) without you having recourse and with the constant refrain: this is all for your own good. Meanwhile, the Permanent Residents remain PR forever, enjoying all the benefits of the place without the responsibilities (NS, etc) and then they conveniently send their kids overseas (maybe at the govt’s expense and break contract, thus depriving others of scholarships). Squeeze in a few millions foreign talents from all walks of life, squeeze every cents from your hard -earned wages and ask you not to squeeze the employer any increments least it leads to wage-price spiral. It is all very sad, a sad sad situation.

DPM Wong: Singapore crimes statistics lower than HK, New York

DPM Wong: Singapore crimes statistics lower than HK, New York

3 August 2008

Cities like Hong Kong and New York have more police officers per 100,000 people of its population compared to Singapore. Yet the Republic fared better when it comes to keeping crime rate down last year, said Deputy Prime Minister Wong Kan Seng at a community event.

And that’s because Singaporeans have played their part to deter criminals.

Speaking to some 300 Raffles Junior College students and grassroots leaders on Sunday, Mr Wong urged the community to be proactive in fighting crime.

DPM Wong also said: “We sometimes give opportunity for criminals to commit a crime….A lot of these crimes, if you see in the data, are opportunistic crimes. We need the cooperation of citizens and since we cannot put police officers around every block and patrol the street, we need you to take an active part in it.”

In 2007, Singapore has 239 police officers per 100,000 people. In Hong Kong, the ratio was 393 to 100,000 and in New York 430 per 100,000.

Yet, Singapore’s crime rate was the lowest among the three cities, at 696 cases per 100,000 population. For Hong Kong, it was 1,167 cases, while for New York, it was 2,432.

Hi Leong,

U r comment on the local migrating to other countries is ineed

outstanding. When 1000 locals gave up their citizeship for the past three years

it seemed there is something fundamentally wrong somewhere.

Part of these 1000 locals gave up their citizenship for the neighbouring ASEAN

countries where the standard of living is generally lower than this country, this

is something that is shocking.

Apart from the reasons mentioned above, there is an overwhelming reason to emigrate : racial discrimination.

Thousands of Singaporeans have left due to this reason.

The authorities know this very very wel.

Those who ask for police clearance cerificate have to indicate why they need it.

Many indicate frivilous reasons but none mention it.

For the simple reason, why risk the denial of the certificate.

But oine day the truth will come out.

To : 33)Policeman and Woman
Crime rate is a function of the no. of Reported Crime.
If people are advised to not lodge a report, it won’t count in the statistics.

Hi DC

Thanks very much for pointing out my error

I stand corrected – Sylvia Lim is an NCMP, not MP or NMP

Is there any country in the world that has
Members of Parliament,
Non-Constituency Member of Parment
Nominated Members of Parliament?

How has this system of different types of MPs contributed to the development of democracy and the Parliamentary system in Singapore?

Cheers

Leong Sze Hian

I was watching the new X-Files movie and I found one weird almost surreal moment when the camera panned to the photo of George Dubya Bush in the FBI office and then, as if on cue, the first few bars of the X-Files theme played in the background and both Scully and Mulder gave each other quizzical looks.

I know that local shows like Money No Enough have been more vocal abt the dissent/dissatisfaction the people feel, but I wonder if we’ll ever have such free reign to be able to even make a joke abt the Men in White. Or is it still a taboo/OB market subject, that is liable to get us sued out of our pants :)

We have, over a short period of time, developed a successful system which has become self-rejuvenating in that dead skin will give way to new skin so as to maintain an upright and incorruptible society for the discerning and the quiet appreciators.

I guessed those who left have figured out that there are more caring government in developed countries and those who left for some less developed countries have found they do not have to face the grind of feeding the faces of overpaid ministers and president not forgetting croonies.
It is either you are a mere digit working for a mafia system feeding the machinery of a well oiled efficient advanced payment collecting syndicate contributing to the undeserving spineless fat cats while you serve the enslavement drugery of working pass your seventies or you chose to migrate for a better quality of life.
The down and out are left to fend for themselves resorting to collection of cans or cardboards to erk out a miserable existence. The young educated are put through the severe competition of competing with foreign talent for a low paying job. Even established countries like Australia or Britain have guidelines in protecting the jobs of their citizens unlike here.
The singles are also discriminated against for public housing.
If nobody has a sense of belonging here it is the policy makers who have failed miserably as it will lead to the downfall of this island

It is very clear that if Singapore will sink, the fault lies squarely with the PAP’s inability to move beyond party politics to real inclusive nation building.

The IT division of many foreign banks setting up operations in Singapore has the environment of an IT body shop in India – packed full with foreign talent being paid good salaries.
Having worked in the IT division of these foreign banks, I noted that most of these foreign talents do not necessarily have better skills or are cheaper than local talents.

A lot of these well paying IT jobs in banks can be filled by Singaporeans who graduate from Poly or our SG grads. Our SG people after going through a demanding education system will get frustrated when they enter the market place as they end up competing for jobs and feel that they are treated like 2nd class citizens in their own country when they embark on their job search.

Why do these jobs tend to go to so called foreign talent? The government has spent a lot of money and given many incentives to foreign investment banks to set up their regional operations in Singapore but how many of these back office jobs in IT really generate jobs for the Singaporeans – which are what the SG government always claims benefit Singaporeans?

Why can’t the government make it more difficult for these MNCs and foreign banks to hire these so called foreigners (who might not even be talents) like in the Scandinavian countries?
Did these banks or MNCs even make the effort to recruit local Singaporean after taking and enjoying all these wonderful government perks and incentives?

It’s not only the poor who have to compete with foreign talent for low paying jobs, even our well educated Singaporeans are finding that competition is stiff and feeling like they are being treated like ‘2nd class’ citizens in Singapore compared to foreign talent when it comes to employment opportunities.

Why wouldn’t those Singaporeans who have the ability, migrate to another country where they have to pay more taxes but will be entitled to better healthcare, social security, education for their kids, opportunity for work life balance etc and might be treated as ‘2nd class’ citizens rather than stay in SG , enjoy none of these benefits as SG ‘2nd class’ citizens

If one correlates the house price vs wage, one would notice that house prices have gone up at a far faster rate than wages.

This means more loans for housing and wages to pay housing interest. An average HDB flat requires far more than the 5 years stated by Kin Lian. I would guess average loan rates are between 15 to 25 years for a couple just entering the work force.

My prediction is that house ownership will go the same way as Britain. In London today, people buy shares in their houses because they can’t afford to buy the whole house. In other words, buy part rent the rest.

At the rate house prices go up, that will become a reality soon.

dun worry, remember the promise? THEY will ensure that housing will remain affordable. What is affordable? who knows. Affordable – the catch (may need 2 generations of working adults in the family line to finish servicing the loan in future).

Should be good bcause that will foster family cohensiveness. (the 2 or 3 generations under 1 roof thingy)

Haha

Lynn,

I fully agreed with you. In my company, they employed many from the Philippine, supposedly qualified professionals, but clearly their skills and knowledge is highly questionable. They were not in my division, but I understand from colleagues, these so-called FTs know very little and were in fact, taught and guided by our experience locals. One thing for sure, they were paid less and possess impressive degree from the Philippine. Who knows are they really as skillful and knowledeable as their papers claimed to be. But surely, our poly students are more hands on and could do a better job. Another thing for sure, the Spore immigration is opening the flood gate wide and freely to these so-called FTs, and they are flocking to this tiny red dot in droves.

When Singapore citizens choose to leave by the scores to settle overseas to live (even if they have not withdrawn their cpf which evidenced their giving up of Singaporean citizenship), it does goes to show SIMPLY that the grass in Singapore is not greener. ONLY for the expats, Singapore is ‘a’ good place – one of the many good places (please dont think that there are not others).

Something tells me this is a case of ‘the grass is greener on the other side’. For all the good points that one can rattle off regarding emigrating to countries like Australia, there is really only one point that we need to consider: why go somewhere else and be treated as 2nd class citizens?

Best place? What’s the definition – materially? Who’s definition is it?

The newly arrived immigrants would be grateful but many probably use Singapore as a stepping stone to greener pastures.

The 1,000 Singapore who gave up citizenship are likely to be those who want to withdraw their CPF What about the huge known number Singaporeans who have taken up foreign citizenship but did not want to give up Singapore citizenship? The disadvantages of not taking up citizenship in another country are forgoing study grants, public service jobs and the right to vote, most of which people may be prepared to live with.

Most statistics are probably available to MHA but may be too sensitive to be released to the public. Perhaps some of the grievances such as the education system, cost of living, lack of freedom, etc, are not to be made known and there’s little the government could / would do to redress the problem.

#47 jw,

The answer is simple. Why stay in Singapore and become a 2nd/3rd class citizen of your own country while sacrificing 2 + 10 years of your time, be rated lower economically than your foreign counterparts when you can go over to a “greener” country and be a 2nd class citizen, but yet have equal opportunities and the freedom to do things that you couldn’t do in Singapore.

Like voicing your opinion, organizing peaceful protests and have the freedom to explore things like Arts without being looked upon as a social outcast, or fear.

Sometimes, the grass is indeed greener on the other side depending on who’s perspective.

I work in an MNC that has restaffed the whole IT dept of 5-8 pple (excluding managers and above) from pure SGers to a complete Pinoy outfit.

Ironically, during the handing over period, it was the SGers who had to teach these supremely qualified (on paper) FTs who knew jack to fit into the role. As knowledge and experience can never be gained in such a short period, the expectations could not be met and they are now performing below expectations. FT? Talent is definitely very foreign to them.

To add insult to injury, some of these jocks are now asking for the ‘expat’ package that SG is so famous for.

Not surprising why so many of my S’porean friends are so fed up with this whole mess and BS.

Seeing all these ‘FT’s coming here, trying their luck to get the best deal really does not make the workplace productive at all.

Also, if the manager is an FT, it is also likely that he will look for or recommend his fellow country men to staff his department.

FT creates jobs for us locals?

BS.

If it is true that about a half of teenagers here want to leave ‘permanently’, then I guess that they, like teenagers anywhere, want to leave in the prospect of better life experiences elsewhere. Maybe experiences here have not been exciting enough, or maybe it is the usual about not having freedom to be themselves, or what they want to be. It is usually about freedom from figures of authority like parents or teachers, so they would want to go some place where young people of like mind mingle, without having to be under the watchful eye of the ‘authorities’. Teenagers in Singapore do perceive lower standards regarding personal freedom here; when they compare themselves with peers elsewhere they do think that more freedom can be sought elsewhere. You cannot blame them for that.

In any country, there are people leaving to live and work in other countries. Sg is not at exception. there are many reasons – change in liftstyle, work, interest, etc.

Not necesarily because something is amiss in Sg. Prices of houses, car, etc are high no doubt but comparative with most countries.

Most young people in any country would wish to work and live in another country – at some stage for experience and exposure. So the survey may be right about half the young people want to leave Sg but reasons for leaving may varies.

Only some slight difference in the system and in certain areas:

In some countries all will have a place in the university if you can qualify. Government will provide student loan if you can’t afford it. ALL.

ALL citizen retires at 65 and receive pension, welfare, etc – you need not worry about old age and whether it is going to be cheaper to fall sick or die.

If you can’t walk – you can have a mobility scooter to go around. All restarants and shopping, everywhere will have ramp to cater for mobility scooters. All carparks have reserve lots for disabled, etc

If you can’t afford a house – you can rent state houses at cheap rent.

If you are bed ridden – you will have nurse and social workers coming to your house to help you out.

You can go trouts fishing in any river and lake, seaside, deepsea fishing, jungle tracking (tramping), camping, ski, etc.

many reasons why people choose to live in another country
but not mainly due to unhappiness.
Same with those who come to live and work in Sg.

Been there, done it, know the difference.

Sadly, natural endowments and good weather could not be replicated in Singapore. Airconditioning and greenery is just not the same as they are artificial and clinical.

On the other hand, some things in Singapore have been taken for granted until one has lived overseas. There is no perfect place in this world and one has to choose what the priorities are. One man’s meat is another man’s poison.

Nevertheless, emigration is a serious issue that demands more attention. Blood is thicker than water. More perks to differentiate locals from foreigners are needed . Apparently, decision makers do not think there is no privileged birth right and no one is indispensable.

During one of the English radio talk show this morning on the subject of patriotism, the question was posed – why people are not standing up, nor showed any reverence, respect and what have you when the natinal anthem was played at one GRC ND funcation.

I couldnt get through the phone line to air my views, so I thought maybe appropriate to sound it out here – in the very first place, there is no patriotism to talk about. Does anyone really wonder that this is a fact – which apparently the MSM is still sort of oblivious. And isn’t it taxpayers money are used to fund such no-brainer kind of audience-participation shows.

“52) Gus on August 6th, 2008 6.38 am Been there, done it, know the difference.”

Unfortunately (or fortunately), not everyone has the same set of definitions of the way things are here. The only difference at least is that there are platforms in the internet for these differences to be clarified. Not the standard cut-and-paste- copies type that you will usually witness in the MSM which ironically is slowly slowly yet very slowly changing for whatever little bit of betterment. Sometimes, you need to make noise in order to be heard right.

Sojourner,

I was listening to the same programme as I was jogging around my estate and I can’t help but roll my eyes when one of the host was saying that we should put in the lyrics to Majulah Singapura and the pledge in a card that we can put in our front pockets.

Patriotism is not something that can be “educated”. The whole thing about “forced patriotism” is so anti-patriotic that I really cannot understand how someone could even suggest it.

I was actually just waiting for someone to call up and say the bloody truth instead of pleasantries just for the sake of it. There’s nothing to be patriotic about when we as citizens have no voice, and are constantly paying for the benefits of our foreign brothers through government tax. Our own people on the other hand are being ostractized by their own leaders.

Listening to that programme today somehow reminds me of how people living in oppresed states must feel. 1984 anyone?

I wonder why so many SIN-ans are still naive and ill-informed about those who have immigrated to countries such as the UK, US, Canada, etc. As far as I’m aware, no immigrant to Canada who has taken up citizenship is a 2nd Class citizen. Every citizen, rich or poor, able or disable, of whatever colors or status, enjoys all the rights and privileges under the Canadian Constition and the Charter of Human Rights.

The misconception of 2nd Class citizen in Canada is total garbage except for those who couldn’t make it for one reason or another. So just to save face when returning to SIN, they have to cook up something to redeem their face and shame.

In comparison with SIN, Canada offers all that a citizen deserves, is eligible for and entitled to. What have you in SIN? A borrowed roof over your head for 99 years, your retirement savings are not yours even beyond your grave, your freedoms are restricted, your human rights are violated one way or another, discriminations are rife in every strata of your society, etc.

When comparing statistics of any kind, there’s a tendency for SIN-ans to weigh such data with no or limited knowledge on statistical analysis. A recent stark naked instance was the comment made by the Press Secretary of the Ministry of Law. She/He stated that in any democratic countries anywhere in the world, no professional bodies are permitted to participate in the political arena. What garbage and untuths? This SIN talent (mini-million-$ pay entitlement) needs to go back to school.

Professional bodies in western democracies are very much politically alive and verciferously acitve when their interests, rights and rice bowls are violated and trampled upon by the government or unfair legislations. If the Press Secretary were to mention guided democracy (SIN version), meritocracy, despotism, nepotism, axis of evil ideology, I can understand and it goes without saying. Aren’t these sorts of data plucked up from ignorance and kampong mentality?

Though the US is still the world’s greatest economic and military power, most of its citizens are better off than SIN-ans in every aspect of human life and existence. So is Canada’s. It’s getting more difficult to get into western countries particularly the US and Canada.

I trust those who are commenting or reporting, bear in mind to do so objectively, experentially and knowledgeably. Your ignorance, propaganda or psychological warfare is within the views of top talents around the world and/or this will present a very bad image of SIN “balek kampong” talents and mentality.

JW,

The question really is why be treated as a 2nd class citizen in the country that you were born in.

Ebenezeron:
Balanced and well said.
Anyone wonders a piece of related irony (and I believe it’s a hugh problem but not treated as such) in Singapore among our juniors – we have one of the hghest number of myopic school-going kids in the world. Hahaha world-class uniquely Singapore. And if I am not wrong, it was suggested – blame it on the parents…

55) Please tell me the difference on August 6th, 2008 10.29 am

The Law in Sg is strict and good and served as a deterrent.
Things get done pretty quickly.
Most people can afford the basics – a decent house, have a job, family, education, etc
You don’t need to travel for hours to go places
You can still find places to go for supper
Most people can afford luxuries – SCV, hp, clubbing, holidays, etc
Your old age and welfare is your own pasa
dying is cheaper in some instances than falling sick
Not easy to own a car
most people don’t have a garden to grow your own stuffs
You can’t pluck friuts from trees and eat them there and then
Most people don’t have a garage / workshop to do your own stuffs
You can’t drive to the nearby river and fish for trouts
You can’t go camping by beach or reservoir or lakes
People don’t say hi and hello to each other as much
the list can go on until tomorrow

share with you this
I got a chq written in both our names but I don’t have a joint acc
I went to the bank and asked if I can bank the chq into my wife acc
if I signed behind it.
Can.
the teller processed and gave me a receipt
I said “thank you.”
She said “thank you and you have a good day”
I walked away happy. no hassle.
Try doing that in our POSB….

if can . i think more than half of the population will leave , this place sujck

tunkudon,

well if you think about it statistically, we’re almost there, with 1M and counting of our 4.5M, now made up of foreigners.

Just 1M+ more to go.

60) Gus on August 6th, 2008 1.31 pm

Funny right. So many “good things” that you have mentioned and the list can go on and on and yet many still make noise leh. Just don’t understand why.

Is there something missing that you have forgotten to mention ?

Can singapore have economic progress without its people?
Thus, the people contributed signifantly to the economic progress.
Gus forgot to mention.

PAY ME MORE MONEY & I WOULDN’T LEAVE. JUST LIKE OUR PSEUDO-LEADER, MUST HAVE MORE MONEY THAN THEY WILL NOT CORRUPT & LEAVE FOR GREENERY PASTURE. MONKEY SEE MONKEY DO. WHAT A GOOD EXAMPLE.

You forgot that without the PEOPLE,
there is zero economic activities.

High Economic goal is what is aspired to be achieved.
Economic performance came from the people.

Example : a CEO wants his sales team to increase sales by 200% by next quarter. He painted his vision. Whether this can be achieved depends a lot on the sales team workforce who may have to commute to and fro paying all sorts of tarriffs without compraing , supporting the buses and mrt as much as they can. pay carpark without sengchao. pay tax diligently. never object. always yes.
the ceo achieved his sales target goal and felt proud proud.

Is the Singaporean population shrinking? – Part 1
Friday, 14 December 2007, 2:38 pm | 379 views
By Leong Sze Hian

To what extent has our liberal foreign labour and citizenship policies affected Singaporeans’ rights with reference to Article 22 and 25 of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights ?

Is the Singaporean population shrinking because of our liberal foreign labour and residency policies?

The answer is probably nobody knows, or maybe just a few may know. Well, perhaps we can try to make a calculated guess…

I refer to media reports about the OCBC survey released on 12 December that 1 out of 50 Singaporeans (2 % of the population) aspire to migrate, and the article “Facts on the ground more eloquent than statistics: Ngiam” (Today, Dec 10).

In the debate on the ministerial pay increase in April, the Minister Mentor argued that without a competent Government, our mothers and daughters will be maids in other countries.

But, if the Singaporean population is indeed shrinking due primarily to emigration, and 2 % of the population aspire to migrate, do our ministers really deserve the 2nd of their 3rd pay increase by 21 % from 1.6 to 1.94 million, come 1 January 2008?

Since the increase for civil servants range from 4 to 21%, why is it that ministers who are already paid the most are also getting the highest pay increase in both percentage and quantum terms?

The latter article reported that:

“Describing the Republic’s productivity performance as “mediocre”, Mr Ngiam pointed out how Singapore’s Gross Domestic Product has expanded “largely on infusions of foreign labour”… Mr Ngiam repeated his concern – which he first made in a People’s Action Party newsletter last month – that Singapore should not be obsessed with bumping up the population for economic purposes, given the advances in technology and education standards.

Said Mr Ngiam: ‘The civil servie is more adept at achieving quantitative than qualitive targets. Topping up our population en masse with immigrants may well create a population base larger than what out economy can sustain’”.

According to the book “Population of Singapore” by Saw Swee-Hock, the ‘Non-Resident Population’ (foreigners) grew by -2.4, -5.7, 0.7, 5.9 and 9.7 per cent, in 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 respectively. This means that the rate of growth for foreigners has increased about 15-fold since 2003.

In contrast, the ‘Resident Population’ (Singaporeans and Permanent Residents (PRs)) grew by only 1.8, 1.7, 1.4, 1.9 and 1.5 per cent, for the same respective years, respectively.

The ‘Net Migration’ for 2005 – 06 (mid-year to mid-year) was 130,500, with the ‘Component of Total Population Growth’ being 132,500 for ‘Population Growth’ and 21,671 for ‘Natural Increase’.

If the population grew by 132,500, natural increase was 21,671, with 130,500 ‘net migration the addition of mainly foreign adults to the total population’, does it mean that about 19,671 (21,671 natural increase + 130,500 foreigners – Population increase 132,500) Singaporeans emigrated from Singapore ?

Since a record 13,200 citizenships were granted last year, and a record 57,000 were granted PR status, giving a total of 70,200, the fact that the overall resident population increase was only 55,000, may also support this estimate for emigration (70,200 new citizens/PRs + 22,358 new babies less deaths – 55,000 overall resident population increase – 19,671 estimated Singaporean emigration = 17,887 estimated PRs who left Singapore?).

Of course, there may need to be a small adjustment to the figures, because some of the new babies and deaths may be PRs.

Depending on the adjustments to the data, because the statistics are not broken down into Singaporeans and PRs, if this approximate figure is correct, then, it may indicate that the number of Singaporeans migrating may be more than the number of new babies and deaths. Will the Singaporean population shrink, if this apparent trend continues?

This matter may also tally with Senior Minister, Goh Chok Tong’s recent call for us to address three main challenges, one of which is the need to integrate the 70,000 plus new citizens and PRs, and make them feel at home in Singapore.

Why is it that as I understand it, emigration statistics of Singaporeans are not published on a regular basis ?

Why do ordinary citizens like me have to guess the numbers? Shouldn’t they be available and published regularly?

How many MPs have ever asked this question in Parliament?

As I am just an ordinary citizen, and not a statistician, economist, analyst or academic, can the experts please help to advise as to whether my estimate is correct, close or far off the mark?

With regards to the ‘Resident Population’, the population increase was 55,000, ‘Natural Increase’ was 22,358, and ‘Migration Increase’ was 32,642, in 2006.

So, does it mean that about 52,313 (55,000 population increase – 22,358 natural increase + 19,671 emigration) of the resident population 55,000 increase, was due to foreigners becoming PRs ?

If this is the case, does it mean that about 95 per cent (52,313 divided by 55,000) of the resident population increase was due to foreigners becoming PRs ?

To What extent has the continuing decline in the procreation rate been due to the change in the income tax rebates on 1 January 2004, reducing the old $ 20,000 Special Tax Rebate for mothers below age 31 for the second child, to just $ 10,000 under the new Parenthood Tax Rebate ?

The ‘Future Resident Labour Force According to Medium Projection, 2005 – 2050’, is projected to increase from the current (2005) 1,747,806 to 1,764,527 in 2010, and then gradually decline to only 1,148,032 in 2050.

Part Two of this article will be published next week.

60) Gus on August 6th, 2008 1.31 pm

Funny right. So many “good things” that you have mentioned and the list can go on and on and yet many still make noise leh. Just don’t understand why.
Is there something missing that you have forgotten to mention ?

There will always be people who are not satisfied no matter what happens. No one can satisfy everybody or make everybody happy, not within a household, not within a community, not within a country and certainly not with the world….

I may have missed couple of important things – what is the something that you think I missed out?

cheers

I have a degree.
I have a good job.
I go out with a girl with a degree.
She has a good job.
We earn too much to get a faux ’subsidy’ to buy a home.
But we have too little savings to buy a home from the ‘resale’ market.
I am too young to buy a flat alone.
But I am too old to live with my parents.
I’ve spent 2 and a half years in ‘prison’.
And I waste 2 weeks a year (and many more years to go) revisiting my jail.
I have voted in 2 elections and not voted in 1.
Every election that I voted or not voted for was for a different constituency.
But I have not changed my address.
I don’t own a car
but I should because ‘public’ transport is not really ‘public-centric’.
I am too “rich” to get subsidies or rebates.
I am too poor to not feel the pinch of the constant increases in prices.
I pay 20% “tax” on my salary to a “retirement” fund that I will not see when I retire.
I no longer understand the languages spoken by the people around me.
I am ruled by an incompetent, corrupt government that I did not vote for.
I am singaporean.
I am sandwiched.
I don’t want to be singaporean.
I don’t want my children to be singaporean.
I am waiting to leave.

“68) Gus on August 7th, 2008 7.02 what is the something that you think I missed out”

Well just for a start. Even with all the surface achievements, the sense of ownership in this country is clearly not present for some (or a lot of) people given you-know-I-mean.

To a great degree, a lot of us do sense that something is not so right in the national scene. Call it intuition or anything if you like. It may be fine for you but certainly it is uneasy for me. No point to be more specific.

… the sense of ownership in this country is clearly not present ………. a lot of us do sense that something is not so right in the national scene

It is because people feel they are not able to get straight answers / key information from the government.

It is because people feel that PAP is not listening and just ignoring public views. If PAP wants to talk / debate policy core values, why restrict it to Parliament and with opposition? Come out to debate the core values in public with the people.

It is because all PAP can do is redraw election boundaries and play all sort of tricks to keep themselves from being voted out.

It is because PAP only know repeating its policy position and tell people to move on when people feel the PAP is not representing the people.

what sort of straight answers / key info you want from the Government / PAP?
Just name me 3 things.
Perhaps others may know the answers.

What are the things that the PAP are not listening or ignoring?
Just name me 3 things.
Perhaps others may not agree with you.

Redrawing boundries – no arguement there.

the more than half of the people who voted for the PAP trusted the PAP’s judgement and will adopt their policy. If not – next election they will loose their votes. The PAP can only represent so many people and do so much for so many people – not all. If you are not in there – too bad. Wait for your opposition MP to get voted in then he will represent you.

“Well just for a start. Even with all the surface achievements, the sense of …”

if you can say exactly what you mean – easier for me to understand. I wish to understand what are the things you are not easy with. It is after all only an opinion be it agreed upon or not.

I am not happy with the way ERP points are erected – nothing I can do about it. There are a number of things I can do – take public transport, ride bicycle, not voting for the PAP comes election, migrate, grumble about it, etc …

someone not happy with the speed camera along Napier Road – smashed up the camera. I think it was smashed / vandalised – more than once. But then motorists slowed down along the stretch of road which was the purpose of the camera.

can’t go around smashing up all the ERP though. can’t cheat or avoid not paying. so live with it. Each time the cash goes out – I will just swear and curse like most people. A friend told me that he has several set of false number plates (all with non existence numbers, don’t want others to get into trouble) and he saved quite a bit on ERP, cannot used too often though….i told him it is just not worth it….

cheers

Some years ago I overheard a partial conversation on an SQ J class flight flight. between 2 distinguished looking gentlemen whom I do not know their names. I still remember the jist of it as :
“Well if they leave Singapore, it is good as we do not need to take care of them in their old age; healthcare is going to be very expensive..”
“Yeh, there are many hungry foreigners waiting to be given a chance to get in…”

My advice to all contemplating to leave Singapore – ” please do not go unless you have no choice; claim your birth rights and do not give it away easily to others.
FTs are only a temporarily fad – they will go to places where they can find easier lives – remember the popular phase ” fail in London, try Hong Kong “, nowadays it may be “no job in America, try Asia”………………………
Hang on there fellow Singaporeans; we can have a good thing going here.

73) Gus on August 7th, 2008 12.36 pm

The will to let go so that really able people can really shine. Let the people decide who should lead. No artificial barriers in the name of this and that (and tonnes of reasonings which are effectively excuses). Singaporeans may have been subservient in the past given certain past conditions.

Certainly, the level of understanding & maturity acquired in the past years on national matters have resulted in them becoming more discerning and confident in airing their opinion on how the country must move or be directed. This itself is healthy and good but artificial barriers must be dismantled for it to bear fruits.

Alternatively, this will be translated into useless cynicism and in long run apathy. Variety is the spice of life while single minded dominance just for the sake of it may result in national stagnation at the expense of the greater good of our wider citizenry.

2nd class Singaporeans – you are not; you are just not not happy with us staying around and working in your country.

So what’s the point of this article? PAP sucks, so that’s why life sucks, so that’s why people are leaving? Is that the message?

Surely, there is lack of political freedom. But are the people leaving for this reason? Does breaking the cage around democracy keep people here? I somehow don’t think that is enough.

The most mobile echelon of the population is always going to seek opportunities awaiting them else where simply because there is always a patch of grass elsewhere which is greener in the eye of the beholder. Just like our forefathers, both well to do and not, who came here for various reasons.

So what I believe is important is to come up with a system that can sustain the resources to give the people who CAN’T leave the country a respectful life. After all, these are the people who are likely to suffer the most.

This task is, of course, an universal problem, not only specific to Singapore. What is particularly challenging here is that we do not have anything to mine or farm to generate revenue for all the expenses the people need. If all the mobile people, both citizens and not, pull out, what is left is just going to be an empty shell. Scary.

77) vendi on August 8th, 2008 11.14 am

So what is your point ? Head you win, tail I lose ? What you are saying is that what is so not so desirable that is going to happen is not only specific to Singapore.

Agreed but in this context, there is a difference between leaving for good carrying along with negative feeling about the country left and leaving temporarily or long term but always with good memories about the country to talk about and positive feeling towards the country. And also the “quality” of those that are leaving the country for good and their reason.

There will always be global mobility, e.g workwise, etc. Ultimately, it is the heart of the person that counts. Is the heart in Singapore when he is outside Singapore or put in another way do the people who are physically present here have their heart here.

“If all the mobile people, both citizens and not, pull out, what is left is just going to be an empty shell. Scary.”

This is precisely what nation building is all about.

what sort of straight answers / key info you want from the Government / PAP

Give us the detailed breakdown of the cost of one HDB project and how HDB comes up with the selling price for the units.

Give us detailed employment and other demographic statistics in three individual groups: citizen, PR, foreigners.

Give us detailed account of how the fee collected from road tax, COE, tv license, maid levy are being used.

What are the things that the PAP are not listening or ignoring?
Just name me 3 things.
Perhaps others may not agree with you.

Whenever, PAP has to resort to “let’s us move on”.
The question is whether there are more people agree with me or disagree with me. The way to settle it is with public debates on issues.

[...] A Dying Breed – TOC: Best place to live in but how many are leaving? [Recommended] – Hard Hitting in the Lion City: Foreign Talent at Work – My Very Own Glob: How many [...]

Every country has its advantage. You have to prioitise.

“Best place to live in but how many are leaving?”

Isn’t Singapore is like a high-class hotel ? Very superficially look good in image and service. Staff having superficial smile just for the sake of ricebowl and everything manage to as business. But leave everyone must eventually as who can afford to stay for a long time in expensive hotel with accomodation price heavily mark-up.