Serangoon Gardens - the area in question
Saturday, 6 September 2008, 9:38 am | 2,124 views
With the current controversy over the issue of converting Serangoon Gardens Technical School into a dormitory for foreign workers, The Online Citizen decided to pay a visit to the area. We hope to give our readers an idea of what residents there might face if the plan by the Government goes through.
Here is a short video of the area in question - Burghley Drive in Serangoon Gardens - and its neighbourhood.
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Frankly, when will everything stop? We have students who petitioned because they didn’t want a hospice next to their institution. We have residents who doesn’t want a domitory next to their estate, we have people who doesn’t want a funreal palour next to them.
So is that OK if is not in their private estate? Did anybody suggest where would be the most suitable place to house all these above. In a land scare Singapore, people must learn to give and take.
We want a funreal palour to cater to our aging population. We want a hospice so that we can let the terminally ill had a clean and peaceful place to rest for their final lap. We want the foreign workers to help us build our house and also because our local refused these job. But we are not prepared to sacrifice our space for it.
Where to find? 又要马儿好, 又要马儿不吃草
SevenEleven,
Sure, why don’t you just locate them beside Oxley Drive, Namly Ave, etc? Do you think the people there will protest?
C’mon, let’s be fair. Nobody likes to be at the brunt end of lousy implementations/policies.
Everybody needs space. And rightly so. Pray why don’t you put these dormitories in Oxley Drive? Whom do you think will call for you neck?
If these people can accept the housing dormitories, I’m sure Serangoon people will.
Kaffein
Why not pick an area in AMK ? PM Lee can show all citizens he walks the talk, Wee Siew Kim and Lee Bee Wah can help him sell the idea to AMK residents.
Split the foreign workers into 2 groups, one half to be housed in the Namly,Oxley area and the other half in AMK. The filthy rich and the peasants will be seen to be sharing their space. fair right ?
Just build one less golf course and we will have plenty of space for those facilities.
SevenEleven wrote:
“We want the foreign workers to help us build our house and also because our local refused these job. ”
Are you sure? I see a lot of people in Australia who wants to be bricklayers and builders. Even professors want to be plumbers!
Why?
Because in Singapore, the focus is on academics. So the most money goes to these pool of people. Who will want to work in manual labour?
If there is a minimal wage policy, also encouragement these jobs with decent pay, would not locals pick these up?
Kaffein
I live in that area for 33 yrs and would like to highlight a practical problem if the workers are indeed housed in that particular location.
it is on a one way street surrounded by grassland. thus there is only one in/out to the building. that area is serviced by only one feeder bus which already is damn infrequent. i can jog round the entire nehigbourhood even before feeder bus comes (about 3.5 km).
putting aside the issues of prejudice etc. having that high volumn of traffic brought about by the dorm will cause a lot of problems for the residents and workers in the morning. both workers and residents will end up frustrated.
it is a pblm the govt has to solve because it involves the way the location is situated and how the roads leading in and out of the area is built. because of the extremely infrequent feeder bus, it would also mean that the serangoon area would get its bus stops clogged up because the buses just cannot clear the human traffic. putting aside all the issues of prejudice and bias, it is really impractical to house them there. this is something that LTA and SBS and SLA to solve before they even pitch it to the people.
The govt build large dormitories at places like Holland Road, Dalvey Road, Nassim Road, Bt Timah, Oxley Rise, etc. first. Then S’poreans will see how “accommodative’ our mini-stars and MIW MPs are!!!
It’s kind of strange that Turf City’s application to be the bus hub for buses going to Malaysia was rejected, yet something like this is considered. Perhaps Bukit timah district has too many rich people and expats … … ?
A self-contained dormitory for foreign workers is in fact a ghetto. On a lighter note, is there a possibility of relocating the entrance in such a way that it would appease the local residents?
MND should not give in to pressure exerted by Serangoon Garden residents. Should workers hostel be relocated somewhere else, there will be an endless cycle of people creating trouble petitioning their MPs to express their unhappiness.
Suppose MND finds an alternative spot in XYZ neighborhood and MND stands their ground in the face of further protests in XYZ. The residents of XYZ will take that to mean that they are not being treated equally as the people of Serangoon Gardens.
As a matter of principle and fairness, MND must stand firm in its decision. Anything less would result in the undermining of the pragmatic and meritocratic system this country has taken years to build.
Reduce overdependency on manual foreign labor.
Introduce a minimum wage policy with greater automation. Look at the Australia model for some inspiration.
Hello. I don’t think a minimem wage policy will work in Singapore. The country is simply too small to accomodate that, as compared to countries like Australia and USA. Put it this way, if employers were to madate minimum wage, they would have to also increase their net profit too. Which will in turn increase the overall cost of everything. In the end, consumers (average joes like you and me) will be the hardest hit. Also, employers will also start employing more illegal workers, creating more social problems.
Unlike Singapore, large western countries have huge amount of resources to fall on. Here in the US were I currently reside, even with minimum wage, illegal immigrants is a huge problem.
My suggestion for the govt, is to maintain a better relationship with our immediate neighbors, Malaysia and Indonesia. Have some kind of free trade agreement for their citizens to work in Singapore, we would surely minimize the labor issues and drastically improve the illegal workers problem. Also, it’ helps improve diplomatic ties with them.
Bottomline is, rather than employing foreign workers from China and Banladesh, I’d rather have workers closer to our own heritage and culture.
1) SevenEleven on September 6th, 2008 11.15 am Frankly, when will everything stop? We have students who petitioned because they didn’t want a hospice next to their institution. We have residents who doesn’t want a domitory next to their estate, we have people who doesn’t want a funreal palour next to them.
So is that ……
I support SevenEleven if he proposes that the hospice, funeral parlour, foreign worker dormitories be built near his hse. Bet he will be hospitable to the visitors at these places.
I tried to be kind to the foreign workers when they were doing cable work near my place. Seeing them eat near the bushes opp my hse under warm day, I offered them ice cubes, with water as well as plastic cups. Guess what on the following day? All the cups were thrown into the drain. They have their habits, and not difficult to change. So better to let them stay in places near where their sympathisers are, or where Mr. Mah and his staff are……
sorry..typo error…shd be read as….’difficult to change’.
URA ruling is that workers’ dormitory should be at list 500m from the fence to the nearest residential area. What’s this? Government out to cash in on housing foreign workers?
Any concentration of foreigner in any place on earth is sure to provoke an outcry as it will instill a sense of insecurity to the resident there. I had experienced this in many countries.So before we brand them into racist,prejudiced and discriminating individual,let us be rational and do not just brushed them off . This estate is a quiet and serene area where people work and play in the mist of safety and few crimes were committed.Any time of the day and night,even in the early morning,couples and the elders can be seen jogging and exercising.Roads in and out SG and public transport are limited too. Please try to understand the localised situation and condition. The influx of 1500 foreigner into the area will increase the activity levels of the area which may be good for business but bad for many residents.I think we the SG residents have the right to voice our feelings and objections.
Burghley great white hopes - ang mos ok but own Asian race - No No No No!
What a shame to the so call middle class and educated ?
Long way to go man.
I agree with the Serangoon Gardens residents. People have the right to choose who their neighbors are and the problems of safety cited by the people of Serangoon Gardens is a real and serious one …so is the problem of congestion.
We should now organise petitions to evict foreign workerers in Boon Lay where they are concentrated -surely the residents there face the same dangers and inconvenience as those in Serangoon Garden.
There is a dorm in Tampines - lets have it removed as it endangers Singaporeans in that area.
Lets have aparthied in Singapore to separate our citizens from those lowly foreign workers. We can apply the same argument as the former white supreme govt of S. Africa that the black will commit crimes, and the whites don’t feel safe living near black people so they should be kept far away.
The Serangoon Garden residents have opened my eyes to a new set of values. I grew up poor in a kampung and was surrounded by people who were sometimes poorer than me. I was brought up to tolerate anybody who moved next to me and there were many “types”. One guy set up a shoe factory and housed his Malaysian workers next to my home. Althought they caused me little trouble, I realise now that I don’t have to even tolerate them and risk the unknown. I should have organised a petition to have them located far away from me. …why tolerate people who are poor, potentally dangerous in my eyes and different from myself.
I have grown up with the wrong values that one should be as tolerant as possible for a start to people who are different. The people of Serangoon Gardens are right one should choose one’s neighbor to protect property value. Some people are so low there is no need for the presumption of innocence…when they come, they will steal, rob, endanger the people around them.
Read my blog for my views on this issue : singaporemind.blogspot.com
they are everywhere - 1 million out of 4 million.
We can run, but we can’t hide.
They are our nurses, our telephone operators, call centre operators, waitresses and waiters, cleaners, construction workers, white collar office workers.
As long as the economy is growing and humming - that is what the govt wants, and it suppresses the pay and makes employers happy. And our local bottom salary will continue to be suppressed, Gan Kim Yong, it is THAT SIMPLE.
If you are not happy, send a signal at the mext GE.
Thank you.
As someone living near Sgardens, I would support the petition.
I’m not xenophobic in any sense, but if you were to tell me that you do not feel a little bit threatened when you have such a large influx of foreign workers in your small area suddenly, than you’re probably not human.
Again, I’d like to find out the reason from the government why Serangoon Gardens was chosen?
Why not Bukit Timah, Holland Road or Namly Road?
Were those places even considered, or were they rejected immediately?
The people wants to know.
DC,
I fully agree with you. If MND decides not to locate the foreign workers at Serangoon Gardens, I’ll demand that those in Boon Lay be evicted because if the reasons of safety and congestion applies to Serangoon Garden, they will also apply for the residents of Boon Lay.
“Why not Bukit Timah, Holland Road or Namly Road?”
It is time the government do something for the nation rather give bullshit and nonsense. We should sign on the petition for dormitory for foreign workers in Istana. Isn’t there a lot of space ? Why waste space in Singapore. Space in Singapore is expensive and premium. Istana has a lot of space, don’t rule that out.
Nimby, nimby…
I like how the Sunday Times contrasted our reaction to expats moving into Serangoon Gardens and the suggestion to construct a foreign workers’ dormitory there.
Hope this debate will properly get people thinking about how we view foreigners as a whole.
http://void-deck.blogspot.com/2008/09/too-much-for-sunday-morning.html
Interestingly, in today’s articles about the issue, the residents in the area were described as ‘middle-class’ (twice in 2 separate articles) - including specifically defining one expatriate living in a condo and one reporter who lives in a terrace property. All this whilst at the same time, in one of the reports, referring to the ‘million-dollar properties’ of these residents.
Middle-class huh? So that must mean a 3RM flat dweller such as myself is a member of the low-class? There may be a fine line between being humble and being ridiculous - and condo-living expats and terrace-living journalists labelling themselves middle-class (whilst displaying an appalling sense of xenophobia) is certainly way beyond the ridiculous.
Residents of SGardens are well-off, but they are no means on the same class as the people at 6th Avenue and other high-end luxury places.
I would say they’re upper-middle class so the article was pretty spot on.
Ganga, do walk around the estate and talk to the people there, you’ll be surprised what they do for a living. These guys do not own big mansions like our ministers. Its just that they managed to buy their property at a very cheap rate 20 years ago.
Hell, if my parents didn’t prefer living in a HDB, we would had gotten a unit there for the same price as my current hdb flat. (of course, HDB do have its advantages because of CPF).
I understand your point, but the argument here was not about Sernagoon Gardens per se but the selective lumping of demographics. By placing 1% of the population as low-income, 1% of the population as high-income, and the rest of the 98% of the population as ‘middle-class’, a great number of things can be glossed over and a lot of important, pressing issues can be conveniently swept under/away.
And to specifically address the issue regarding the people at Serangoon Gardens, if they were down-to-earth as asserted, would they not just grin-and-bear-it like fellow Singaporeans in Boon Lay and Khaki Bukit have? Why do they protest so vehemently? And what makes them think they have a stronger case than the aforementioned locales?
True or false, It does not take one long to attribute the perception of upper-class among these residents as the answer to these questions. In addition, even if the residents were to be unemployed, they are without doubt asset-rich and therefore capable of having an upper-class attutude notwithstanding their true financial status and/or actual employment/education level.
**My comments are meant for debate and I urge everyone not to take it personally or out of context, thank you.**
erratum
attutude = attitude
Wonder what residents’ reaction would be if the foreign construction workers were whites ?
It is not too far fetched that the said scenario may happen in say another 5 years as the power shift to Asia. Policy makers - do take note in your future review.
Why don’t they locate the dormitory in an industrial estate? That way, there will be minimal impact on local residents.
Then lease the school out to an international school looking for a site. Many international schools are running out of space and are looking for new sites.
Well, I have lived my entirely life as a minority in Singapore. Hahaha, glad someone mentioned Boon Lay. Ok, surprisingly, I have NOT personally had any nasty incidents with regards to foreign workers. But it definitely FEELS weird walking around Jurong Point and Boon Lay Interchange and not seeing that many Singaporean faces and even less from my own Malay community. But its just a feeling. I used to have nothing against foreigners but all that changed when I found out that fees in NUS and NTU for foreign students weren’t much higher than that for locals, AND as long as there is NS and 36-year olds like me have to be inconvenienced with reservist duties, I am not too happy when I see foreigners strutting around as if Singapore owes them a living. I know I am not being rational, so what.
Honestly, I do not pity the Serangoon residents, it was their choice in the last GE to vote for the hnourable George Yeo and company. They now have to live with their actions. Too bad, life sucks.
From what I hear from some of the electorate counters during the last GE,
Serangoon North and Serangoon Gardens voted overwhelmingly for WP. If these two areas were to be classified as its own SMC, they would be opposition-held.
I’ve been a resident of Serangoon Gardens since I was born. In fact, I live pretty close to Serangoon Gardens Techincal School and I am not against the idea of building a dorm there for foreign workers.
Look, Serangoon Gardens can cater to the influx of foreign workers. It has hawker centres, barbers, etc. Security? There’s a neighbourhood police post near the technical school (about 700m away I should think). Of course, I do agree that the roads are narrow but I’m sure the government can work around that.
By assuming that security will be threatened in the area, we are stereotyping the foreign workers. But have they ever harmed you in any way? Just because they are different from us and have different habits doesn’t mean we should shun them and refuse them a place to live.
Number 33…yes I hope they stay next to u…and i hope when something happens to u , your family, your property…etc no one will hear your bloodly scream! WAKE UP YOURSELF!
Number 34 - I don’t know what’s it with people like you.
I was merely offering my point of view - there is no need to take it personal. There is no need to bring in ‘family’ or ‘property’. That’s just plain childish.
Number 36 - There is no use arguing with you because you throw baseless insults at me.
Learn how to make appropriate comments or don’t comment at all.
Dear ItlsTimeToWakeUp, what you think would happen if we put 3 young girls in a company with 1500 local men for a year(I’m not quoting the foreign workers here, but locals)? Can you guarantee nothing would happened to them? If you really stayed nearby, you would have known, there is an all girls primary school along the same road. If you passed by the Dormitory at Kaki Bukit, do a count on the bicycles they have, chained outside the dormitory. Where would you suggest them to park their bikes in this case? Ask them, why they chose to picnic along the roadside, rather than eating within the dormitory compound. Will you chase them away if they find yr doorstep a lovely spot to have dinner every evening(since u live pretty close to SGT)? It wouldn’t be nice for you to chase people away from yr house isn’t it? These are definitely causes for concern especially to those living directly at the doorstep of the proposed dormitory. Pls don’t take it personally, I am not targeting at you. These are just part of my views…..
if you take a look at Boon Lay one year ago and now, the difference is tremendous, you just don’t feel that safe anymore. when my girlfriend walks past the area, she always feels and sees that many eyes are on her, freaks her out.
did anyone even talk about Jalan Kayu? its not even a good place for roti prata now. too many workers loitering around and some of them getting drunk. even though I have nothing against the workers, it just doesn’t feel the same anymore.
I hope Serangoon Gardens wont become like the above 2 places, its a place i patronise often too, a lot of good food at the market besides the police post. BTW, the police post is not operational 24 hrs a day.
I dont quite believe this plan about having a FOREIGN WORKER DORMITORY in Serangoon Gardens area. Our Ministers in charge are supposed to be brilliant leaders from Division One class and always portrayed to be the best Singapore gahmen can find. The properties in that area are being upgraded and selling at $800 per sq.ft or more.This proposal is devoid of all logic. I am absolutely sure that there are other areas in Singapore to implement this Foreign Workers Township. I hope this is not a red herring or some kind of wayang by the gahmen, to show that they are allowing citizens to give feedback. There are more pressing issues. Please use the time to address issues face by needy citizens.
Serangoon Gardens has always been a lovely place. It used to resemble a small Perth like living enviroment.
Jalan Kayu was a roti prata paradise.
Boon Lay reminded me of my NS days - running the streets and eating out at the affordable hawker centres was fun.
I can really empathise with the reported views of the Serangoon Garden residents.
The administrators need to understand beyond pure physical planning - have sociologists, historians and liberal arts people along side to provide the human and social aspects.
It is not all about not wanting foreign construction workers in Serangoon Gardens from residents’ views or not wanting maids in Sentosa over the week ends, etc….
It is about time to take stock of the relentless pursuit of economic growth which also attract the relentless rising cost of living and which will eventually change the character of Jalan Kayu, Boon Lay and Serangoon Gardens ?, and which also have both parents working to make ends meet…. and so on.
First world - yes perhaps soon but at what cost ? at what divide between people and Government ? losing our children overseas ? worst of all - fading the wonderful memories of the late 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and early 1990s, when Singapore meant much more to citizens than nowadays…….
Do something before it is changed and gone forever…………….
Thank you.
I’m sure nobody will protest if the land were to be occupied by the “white” foreigners (ang moh). I have neighbour from downunder. Their behaviour and attitude are as “rough”. They pay no respect and understanding to our asian values. They criticise loudly about our Singapore system and people. And they are not very highly educated either. Even among the maids, they start to compare and comment the ang mohs give them better salary and off days etc. Let ’s face it, whatever kind of foreigner u have, u are face with different problems. In conclusion, it doesn’t matter whether u are black or white,, is the inner self that counts
“41) nobody on September 8th, 2008 9.12 am
Their behaviour and attitude are as “rough”. They pay no respect and understanding to our asian values. They criticise loudly about our Singapore system and people. And they are not very highly educated either. Even among the maids, they start to compare and comment the ang mohs give them better salary and off days etc. Let ’s face it, whatever kind of foreigner u have, u are face with different problems”
You should tell that to our G people. Hey those people u r referring have a special title called “Foreign Talents”. So don’t play play.
There are alot of old school buildings which are not utilise in Singapore. The one at Serangoon Garden is just one of them. If this place is not chosen, the authorities would choose somewhere else & then the residents over there would also start protesting.
“43) loop on September 8th, 2008 11.08 am
If this place is not chosen, the authorities would choose somewhere else & then the residents over there would also start protesting.”
Of course, residents affected will surely complain lah, very natural and human to do that.
Imagine, if one is nearby your place. You would be a saint if it does not trigger any feeling from you. Just because the authorities get to choose, that does not mean it is it is a good choice.
That’s why you call these town planners - pea brains or cow sensed idiots. I don’t think they have really walk the school grounds or the estate yet. Mind you the school compound can be easily connected into AMK Ave 10 and Tai Hwan Residences. Think beyond that - it’s not only residents in Serangoon Gardens will be affected or threatened ( as my fellow neighbours and residents have spoken very strongly about it) but the spillover into these other boundaries as well.
In the first place there never ever should have even been a preliminary talk or thought about it.
isn’t it so unlike our 1st class government ? opening the floodgate for all…and yet no masterplan in place to house them? simply unbelievable! Very soon…we will be asked to house them as well!
No.46–ya, forced quartering of foreigners within our houses, just like in Boston in 1774-1775. Only difference is in that case, the people declared their independence. In ours, the stupefied majority will grimace and keep their peace.
I agree that the many problems caused by a foreign worker dormitory will have many side-effects on the environment of Serangoon Gardens. I used to work at Kim Chuan, and yes, there were hundreds of bikes and half-bikes parked outside the dorm. The inside was run-down to the core, the workers looked out with fire in their eyes, and it was frightening to walk by, as a seventeen ear old, with a full wallet and arms not suited for fighting nor legs for running. That was an industrial park. Transposing that image to Serangoon Gardens is just unimaginable.
I echo on Ganga’s sentiments!
DC, properties prices there are easily $900K-$1.3 Million and above for the decent terrace, let alone the newer projects. Even if you bought a old run down one, its still freehold and cost you minimum $750K-$900K. U probably still need factor in the renovation cost to tear down the buildling and rebuilt it. Will HDB cost similarly?
Well, 20 years ago prices are different too. But Its relative too isnt it? When a landed 20 years ago equates maybe an HDB current, HDB 20 years ago will be dirt cheap too!
I share the same sentiments as GANGA: -
“And to specifically address the issue regarding the people at Serangoon Gardens, if they were down-to-earth as asserted, would they not just grin-and-bear-it like fellow Singaporeans in Boon Lay and Khaki Bukit have? Why do they protest so vehemently? And what makes them think they have a stronger case than the aforementioned locales?
True or false, It does not take one long to attribute the perception of upper-class among these residents as the answer to these questions. In addition, even if the residents were to be unemployed, they are without doubt asset-rich and therefore capable of having an upper-class attutude not withstanding their true financial status and/or actual employment/education level.”
Sad but its true, there are still a line drawn between them.
Maybe at $900K-$1.3 Million you cant even get a terrace there these days.
The condo at The Chuan, for a 2 room apt already cost $1-$1.2 Million.
Probably for a freehold terrace in that area, we are looking at MINIMUM $1.5-$1.7 million at least? Of course, Semi-D and Bungalows will be much higher.
Glam, thank you for the supportive comments. I am perturbed that the issue put forward by the residents of Serangoon Gardens is not about domitories being located next to residential areas but rather about how unpalatable it is for them. I think the former issue would be a more appropriate discussion and would lead to a result beneficial to the nation as a whole.
I am unfortunately given the impression that it is a selfish consideration of “anywhere else but in my area” by the residents’ response thus far. It is only “don’t use this school in Serangoon Gardens” and not “government should not use residential locations to begin with” that is being put forward by the residents of Serangoon Gardens. Does this not imply that certain perception-of-status related attributes are in play?
I am just disappointed that some of my fellow Singaporeans in Upper Serangoon are not that gracious after all. I feel that instead of just whining and kicking up a fuss (tantrum?), the residents should offer alternatives other than just pushing the buck and suggesting “go use some other place lah”.
“51) Ganga on September 8th, 2008 4.12 pm
the residents should offer alternatives other than just pushing the buck and suggesting “go use some other place lah”.
It is a classic case and widely used approach that if you do not like the sh** that I am giving you, please let me know if you have any other better suggestion orelse please do not complain.
To put it this way, please do not even start the process of giving sh**, that is the best suggestion. Do not have the notion that once you act, people are obliged to react every time especially if it is sh** that you are throwing at people, not only at the people of Serangoon Gardens.
Remember the fringe carparks? They should just free the land occupied by these. Another policy failure but no civil servant wants to stick his neck out and say “Hey! The minister was wrong. Let’s look at how else we can use the land.”
I am surprised the MND did not consider using Hougang and Potong Pasir to house the foreign workers. The PAP could kill 3 birds with one rock.
Solve the housing problem for foreign workers and screw the 2 opposition wards big time. Remember Goh C T’s plan to let these 2 wards degenerate into slums when he was the PM. lol
“I am surprised the MND did not consider using Hougang and Potong Pasir to house the foreign workers. The PAP could kill 3 birds with one rock.”
Why should PAP screw what they confidently said that it will belong to them in next election ? Hougang and Potong Pasir have great $$$ for property that will make the coffers very wealthy.
Singapore has too many under-utilized golf courses. MND should pick one golf course and convert it into an estate to house the foreign workers.
Make the estate comfortable and it can be a show case to attract workers from various parts of the world. A well managed estate can be an incentive for such workers. I also believe the environment influences human behaviour. Harsh living conditions tend to bring out the worst in a human.
Hi Ganga,
So you’re saying that the citizens in Serangoon Gardens should think of alternatives?
So should we pay them instead of the millions we pay our ministers? I mean afterall, they’re doing their job.
My argument about the price of their property was that they bought it cheap then. Just because land value increase now, doesn’t mean that they may necessary be cash rich and/or have a good job.
Hell, if my parents had bought that property there 20+ years ago, would you call me an ah-sia kia even if my parents are earning less than 4k in combined income and are struggling to pay our bills?
Asset rich doesn’t mean they are necessary well-off. Especially when these people only buys one house. Just because the land value of my house increase doesn’t mean I have an increase spending power.
I do implore you to go through your economics once more.
Why does the government see fit to put a dorm in a middle of a residential estate? Why not put it near industrial areas like Tuas, Changi, Jurong Industrial Area?
How did Serangoon Gardens get chosen? What was the rationale? These are valid questions that I think the residents of Serangoon Gardens deserve to know too.
Whether it is foreign workers or FT, govt should made it compulsory that they go thru a cultural induction course. With many rules for Singaporeans, one more for foreigners working here shd be considered. I encountered some angmos in their car driven like crazy FI driver in an MPV along CTE. I brought suggestion at the Meet the Residents sessions to Mrs. Lim. Her feedback? May be an isolated case, as most foreigners are generally friendly. With the Australian Intl Sch nearby, and more FTs in the neighbourhood of Serangoon Gardens, all foreigners, irrespective of profession, shd go for sessions to make them aware of Singaporeans’ concerns, values, etc…
So should we pay them instead of the millions we pay our ministers? I mean afterall, they’re doing their job.
My argument about the price of their property was that they bought it cheap then. Just because land value increase now, doesn’t mean that they may necessary be cash rich and/or have a good job.
Hey DC,
I think your points are not exactly relevant. Yes, Im not in denial that there may be old houses passed down generations after generations (usually these are the single storeys types), but what about the newly built ones which are mostly terraces, semi-D and Bungalows of minimum 3-4 storeys high? I believe all these are bought or even rebuilt in the last 5-10 years, some are even newly built if you are in the estate often enough and see new houses around. This is totally an unfair statement to pass. Whether a person or family is rich a not, its not just by house alone I guess, there are other aspects of lifestyle patterns, spending power, things they owned, cars, investments etc too.I do know of many in the estate who has fully paid for their house too.
I do agree with you that the increase of land value doesnt mean increased spending power. These 2 factors are not relative.
However, with an increase in land value, the asset worth is higher, even when the house is sold, the returns are higher to compared to selling a HDB. There’s a ceiling cap for prices HDB can fetch too, else everyone else will be after HDB, not private if they are able to afford.
There will always be the other side of the coin and end of a stick that people see or feel otherwise. Maybe they are not there yet, or in ownership yet to pass irrelevant comments.
Hello. I don’t think a minimem wage policy will work in Singapore.
Who benefits from a minimum wage policy? Workers and employees do. Not the employers.
Knowing the PAP govt is a pro-business one, you know the answer.
I’ve seen several posts on this thread countering views which sit comfortably with the idea of a foreign workers’ dormitory, where it has been asserted that if THEY were in the same situation faced by the Serangoon Gardens residents, that they would certainly change their minds about their safety/well-being/livelihoods.
I hope I speak for at least a section of the populace when I say not ALL feel threatened by the Other. I am a 21-year-old female, and I personally feel fairly comfortable with the idea of being in close proximity with foreign workers. I have had lewd comments directed to me in my lifetime, but these have more often than not come from Singaporean men. (Perhaps quotas should be imposed on MEN in general in any given estate to ward off that danger.) Noble as it is of the menfolk in S. Gardens to redflag the ’safety’ of the women in their neighbourhood, the hysteria over having Them in Our backyards serves only to fuel the cycle of xenophobic fear.
I wonder if it is pure coincidence that this has emerged at a time when all foreign workers are being lambasted in the ST forum; the climate at the moment seems almost to be heading towards fascism. I could be inappropriately idealistic and call upon universal human rights to decent treatment and living conditions, but these don’t seem to resonate very much with Singaporeans at all. But this uproar over the foreign invasion is not pragmatic either. Who built S. Gardens estate? Who built the school?
Like it or not, these workers are an indelible and critical part of the landscape, and I daresay their sweat and toil allows them to partake in decent shelter. Transient workers here seem to be shunned as an untouchable caste — perhaps no wonder, then, they appear maladjusted, and some turn to antisocial behaviour. Perhaps if they too were given a stake in the land — if only temporary — the fear and Otherness manifested on both sides of the divide might be alleviated.
Why the decision to build a dorm now? Where have our workers been living before the government decides to build dorms?
Have Singaporean ever think back and realised that we are a way or another in fact an immigrant in the past. Our forefather from all over the world ventured into Singapore as an immigrant to seek a better living and settled down here.
Why discriminate against the foreign workers? Aren’t they human like us too?
Some one mentioned about the security issues if the1000+ foreign workers are to be located at Serangoon Garden. Do you mean that if I was to replace it by 1000+ Singaporean or 1000+ Ang Mos, will there be no crime at all ?
To the people who support the petition, I really doubt the education you have received over the years and the fact you are living in multi cultural society.
http://mysingaporenews.blogspot.com/2008/09/different-interpretation-of-serangoon.html
Are we being fair to just look at the interest of the foreign workers at the expense of the residents who have been there first? Are they selfish? I will say no. They are just decent human beings who want to live life decently. And if you raise your lifestyle to their level, you will surely be welcomed. No one who wants a better quality of life will want to live in the ghettos or the slums. And it is normal for them to protest when people want to bring the slum to their doorstep.
This is a microcosm of what Singapore is all about. We have move up to the first world in terms of quality of living and infrastructure. Do we want to level down? The influx of millions of poor workers into this first world city will definitely bring with it the graffiti culture along. Do we want that kind of environment or choose to be in a first world environment, F1 racing, fine dining, culture and concerts. Yes, snobbish appeals and past times.
What do we want? Return to the third world? Racism is definitely not an issue. It is social class. A mismatch of social class and a clash of social lifestyles and habits.
VERY VERY WELL SAID BLACK BEAN!!!
Couldnt agree more with you!
I think you have spell out most of the agenda and main point!
To gahmen,
Is the Swiss standard of living and golden period means living next door those workers ? If so, then Wayang gahmen please have more of these workers living round in your doorstep. How can you convince other if you are so wayang ? Only can propose solution that doesn’t affect you ?
And I think for those not there, havent arrive yet, or have yet raise their lifestyle to that level, no point commenting and bring all sorts external or secondary issues that comes with it. BLACK BEAN HAS SPELLED THEM ALL OUT,
Its the social class differences that SG residents has been protesting and debating all the long!
Yeh, the precursor was Choo Wee Kiang - his “early warning ” in parliament was taken as offensive and he had to apologised.
Perhaps Choo Wee Kiang is having 2 last laughs - STTA and Serangoon Gardens.
Speaking the truth too early will get one screwed in our system of make believe.
Thank you Choo Wee Kiang.
There are still many untested reclaim ground. Built dormitory there to strengthen the foundation. Many thousands can live there.
To first poster SevenEleven,
You are the worst hyprocrite! As long as it is not next to your home it is ok. If it is near another persons house, it is fine.
It is one thing to have them here to do work and another thing to house 1200 next to your house? If you so welcome it, tell Mah Bow Tan your address and he will build one right next to your house/apartment! I will see your neighbours curse you!
Bloody two-time idiot!
and to add to comments of 70), suggest that toc submit details of those sympathisers, incl. that of posting 1) to MND, so that funeral parlour, hospice, dormitories, mental hospital, eateries, entertainment centres, massage parlours, etc…can be built in their neighbourhood…….
Hey ppl, I brought the idea of converting golf courses into self-sustaining foreign worker estates - idea thanks to one of the commenters in this thread - at my local RC meeting last night. It would be at least brought to the attention of the MP who might forward the idea on. All the members quite liked the idea and felt it was feasible (in terms of practicality and not profitability, of course).
If it goes through (and that IS a BIG ‘IF’), we would have facilitated change and that would be real cool! Thanks guys and gals and to TOC as well!
[...] speaks to the larger issue of Singapore's relationship to foreigners on the whole. A video post of the Serangoon Gardens neighborhood and vacant school that is to be converted by The Online Citizen sparked lively debate in comments. [...]
you are right.
Sympathisers - all of you list down your street name and block number if you stay in apartment, and only street name if you stay in landed. Let MND build one right next to it (10-20m as in the case in Burghley Dr).
What? No one dare to state that? Is it bec it is now going to be your turn you suddenly pretend to be busy and no time to come online to blog nonsense?
Conclusion:
Sympathisers pretend to be self righteous, but in the end - they just not practical and full of nonsense. Sometime even cynical. Why? If it happen to Burghkey Dr resident it is ok. As long as it is not next to their homes.
Remember Sergangoon Residents DID not say ill treat FW. They just ask MND to consider other place where it is far from reisdential areas, and reported in ST Times, the places they suggest are really out of residential area. That is constructive suggestion and the MPs agree to bring that to MND.
Serangoon Gardens is a private residential estate and it has always been a family-friendly, homely estate.
How is it possible that the government can decide to potentially destabilise this lovely ’suburb’ by just suddenly introducing a whole new population into the estate just because the school is not being used? Are there no other potential uses for the school? Is this the only alternative? Has the social and emotional impact on the residents been taken into consideration?
I believe even in zoos or animals’ natural habitat, when you want to introduce another group of animals, there are social cohesion concerns, much least when you are talking about people? Do you really think it is so easy as to just bring in another 1000 people to an estate and everything will carry on as it has been?
Yes, we have a market, hawker centre, restaurants, NTUC and even recently cold storage. But will the hawker centre / bus service etc be able to come with a sudden influx of 1000 more people (which will form a significant proportion of the poeple living in the are)?
How many SBS buses will it take to transport these people during their time off? As it is, currently now the bus is infrequent. Are we to ask many of the senior citizens who live in the estate to have to Q for buses? Is it fair to the other segments of the society ?
‘69) sumokong on September 9th, 2008 9.23 pm There are still many untested reclaim ground. Built dormitory there to strengthen the foundation. Many thousands can live there.”
You know what? Singapore can even support up to 6.5million people! So why squeeze into so close to houses in SG?
Cannot really understand how those highly paid scholar can think of this in the first place!
Those who condemned Serangoon GArdens residents are only focussing on the Effect.
But did not address theCause. Why was MND s desperate as even proposing SGTI to house 1,500-strong foreign workers there.
Lest you all forget, we are going to live with about 700,000 foreign workers in the construciton, oil&gas and marine industry - a majority of them farmers and fishermen never being to a mdoern city before, let alone Singapore - for the enxt few years, maybe till 2015 or forever.
Theft and disorderly conduct are perennial problem in a cosntruction site - I know as I had been in teh cosntrcuiton idnsutry since 1873. Their values ar different from Singpaore values and they are are exploitative.
E.g. during a disaster at site, kind-hearted Singpaoreans donated clothes, etc.
Imagine to my astonsihment that teh HR manager or thsoe managers in charge have the first pick of ‘the best” and thne the rest of the charity-donated goods are distributed to the hapless workers.
Meaning, do not beleive fairy tales like “be more accommodating and teach them the Singapore values”. Those cosntruction workers have only one aim - make enough to go home.
For those that compared if “whites” blah blah are stationed in SG, then people wil nto complain. You missed the point as the dormitory si to house 1,500 foreign workers.
And foreign workers mean from the construction industry. Oil& ags and marine industry foreign workers are housed in Jurong or Sembawang or Wodlands area.
And really, Singapore are really facing a crisis in their very first building boom sicne the Crash of 80s.
In those days, cosntruciton workers are hosued at their job site.
But recent laws had been passed and forbid workers being housed on job sites sincne early 90s.
And I blamed MND and MOM caught with their pants down at this sudden influx of construciton workers without decent dormitories - 700,000 of them.
And this is due tot the Triple Whammy:
- booming construciton industry due to MRT, he 2 no, IR and its spreading impact.
- booming rig-building and marine idnsutries.
- booming oil & gas with 2 mega-complex, Shell and Exxonmobile.
And our multi-milioanire meritorius scholars got caught short;
A sudden influx of 700,000 foreign workers without dormitories.
hence the amd scrabmle to find hosuing for them - voila!!! Serangoon gardens with a decent vacant school building gathering dust.
Today, I have made a serious verbal complaint in-person to Singapore Press Holdings (SPH) over the newspaper reports on the foreign workers domitories problems.
I am extremely angry over the problems.
Lai, you are right.
The true problem lies in the super efficient and highly paid scholars making a huge blunder, and now want we poor SG resident to accept the effect of their mistakes in manpower and accomodation planning.
People, please focus in real problem.
To solve it, there are many ways. Forcing it into SG next to people’s home is NOT the solution - temporary or permanent.
Only a hare-brain will think it is ok.
i too am a residence living in serangoon gardens. the arguments for social, economic ,political problems will never come to an end. typical problems like social images being ruin and what have you can easily be countered when looked at examples in south africa and even the USA.
however, lets all be practical and logical. for those who are for the dorm please go take a look at the school and location. i’ll explain why its so impractical here but anyone who thinks logically will understand e situation when they see the location.
firstly, the only route to that location is through a 1 way road where its width is capable of fitting only at max 3 to 4 cars. foreign workers have to normally report to their sites around 6 am to 7. with that road being a main road used by most of the serangoon garden citizens, traffic congestions will be the main issue. I’ve considered the typical solution to that is widening of roads but in order to do that houses have to be removed or altered which is terribly ridiculous. the question 1 must ask is , is the usage of a so called wasted space worth it at the expense of a whole community’s daily lifestyle? i mean to get to work or school on time, residents would have to leave at say 4.30 -5 ? to skip the jam? you decide.
saturdays and sundays as one would know are off days for foreign workers. the average foreign workers would use public transport to get to area’s of their interest. however in e narrow roads of serangoon gardens there is only 1 feeder bus(317) which goes to that area and then straight to the serangoon mrt. would this 1 bus service be feasible? some might argue that the frequency of the bus can be increased but think logically, the max capacity of a typical sbs bus =50. say rarely even half of the foreign workers leave the compound. 700/50 = 14. that would be 14 buses full of foreign workers not even counting in residents. spreaded over a 1 hr period buses have to come at a 4.2 minute interval? unreal.
and if 1 still refuses to be practical, look at the aboved mentioned reason. with such a small road. massive jams would occur. once again one would understand that basic human rights should be applied.but i seriously do not agree that the lifestyle and standard of living of CITIZENS should be undermined in order for foreigners to have a dorm.
well i can go on and on about the problems that can arise but im pretty certain these 2 can bring light to those who cannot see the awaking problems.
thank you.
I cannot agree more. Th infrastructure alone cannot support the huge load of traffic to be generated in such narrow roads.
BTW, 3-4 cars is too optimistic as at anyone time, someone’s else car is already parked outside their own home. So, it is effective 1 car mostly. Those trucks and bus are BIG.
How leh? MND can build double deck road in SG? Direct link to CTE?
Really, how did they even suggest this is really showing everyone who the intelligence of MND - well, at least the group who came up with this idea.
i live near the serangoon area… and yes, i agree the roads to the proposed site is really narrow, with low frequency of public buses. If the govt does want to situate the dorms there, they have to solve the transport issue first.
View my posting at http://singaporeseen.stomp.com.sg/singaporeseen/viewContent.jsp?id=13885
to see an incident as to how constricted the traffic flow can be at the turning of Burghley Drive. The consequences of more traffic mayhem is unthinkable if MND decides on the workers dorm down the road.
I was wondering why our dear MPs didn’t think of housing these… Valuable contributors in the grounds of the Istana. After all, the last time I went there, I saw a large patch of unused lawn in the front. It’ll certainly be spacious, no? The govt should set an example and the peeps would follow. It’s only right.
That said, I think our own Singaporeans should learn to be a little more gracious. These are the people who came, with all their worries and uncertainties, looking for jobs, for cash. They built our houses, built our shopping malls… And now we’re shunning them? A little too much, don’t you think? The fear of dropping property rates shouldn’t happen if there was no discrimination.
That’s all. Just my two cents worth.
I think everybody’s overstating the whole “diminishing property value” argument. It is one of the many arguments that the residents have put up, but it isn’t the only reason.
Everyone seems to be attacking them based on that one argument.
Give them a break.
Walk the talk. Istana it is!
No Istana lah. Come on, the Istana is the equivalence of the palace - it is a country’s showcase.
What may be happening here - a slow retreat of the “not so official position” ?something like a leak - spies around ? Unlike the previous Temasek secretary’s leak to the newsworld.
Now - new news said that Serangoon Gardens is not definite even at feasibility study level. Wonder what the reported contractor involved would say now ?
May be good news for Serangoon Gardens - thanks to the leak which may prove to be pre-emptive, or perhaps middle class speaking up?
No leaks obviously at Jalan Kayu, Taman Jurong, etc
If only all the “gooners” are as gracious as the “Kayuneans”. They will open their arms and welcome FW to live nearby them.
But again, how much will FW dom nearby the estate affect the property value? As for safety, how unsafe will it affect the estate with the FW living in nearby dom? So which is the main objection from the “gooners” then? Mah has to listen objectively and decide why the “Kayuneans” and accept whereas the “gooner” want to object so much.
85) DC on September 15th, 2008 8.04 pm I think everybody’s overstating the whole “diminishing property value” argument. It is one of the many arguments that the residents have put up, but it isn’t the only reason.
Everyone seems to be attacking them based on that one argument.
Give them a break.
Hey DC i couldnt agree with you more…..why are all those “noble” and “human” ppl attacking SG residents on the issue of property value…..
those pple who are attacking SG residents should actually try to suggest to the government to build the dorm somewhere near their places…they would definately support the government decision i believe…..
the main issues here is security and serenity of the neighbourhood….just for the sake of those who do not live there…..there are actually a couple of houses in SG being used to house foreign workers…..though the number may be small but the way they behave sure is different from others not all are rowdy but they still behave in the way which bothers the residents in SG…..
dun start acting as if you are noble and “human” just because the issue would not affect you…..think put yourself into SG residents’ shoes and you would realise the reason why SG residents are so worked up……
The Planned Foreign Worker Dormitory Issue has caused another split amongst the Singaporeans. However, all seem to agree that our Authority(Planner) lacks care for its’ citizens. Indeed, there are many places to accommodate the Foreign Workers without upsetting the feelings of the people.
The former(old) Changi Hospital at Changi Village will make an excellent Foreign Worker Dormitory. It has many unoccupied/unused solid buildings built by the Former British Troops that are wastefully under utilized, the Location is quite large and far away from residential occupations. Another location is at Chua Chu Kang where there are some large partially used flatted factory buildings beside an old Chinese Cemetery. This is also far away from residential occupation.
It is very disappointing that our rulers hardly factor in the feelings of Singaporeans in their relentless and obsessive pursuits of economic(read money) developments. Are our rulers serious and sensitive in planning our future?
patriot
Quote : 88) MMSMPMMC on September 19th, 2008 8.13 am If only all the “gooners” are as gracious as the “Kayuneans”. They will open their arms and welcome FW to live nearby them
But again, how much will FW dom nearby the estate affect the property value? As for safety, how unsafe will it affect the estate with the FW living in nearby dom? So which is the main objection from the “gooners” then? Mah has to listen objectively and decide why the “Kayuneans” and accept whereas the “gooner” want to object so much.”
You may not be familiar with the proposed area. It is very different from Jalan Kayu and we cannot compare these 2 estates. Once you are familiar with the area, you will understand why SG residents are less welcoming. The proposed dorm is in the midst of the Serangoon Gardens estate and access is through the estate’s very narrow Burghley Drive unless LTA builds a road linking the proposed dorm to CTE. This is not feasible as the daily traffic jam on CTE is already horrendous. There is also no such thing as sealing off a section so that workers do not take enter residential areas like what they are doing in Jalan Kayu. Perhaps we should not comment unless we know the area well, ya?