HDB means-testing?
Thursday, 9 October 2008, 9:02 am | 1,591 views
Leong Sze Hian / Columnist
I would like to ask HDB some questions about our public housing policies.
What is the rationale for requiring applicants to upgrade to a bigger flat in order to get a HDB concessionary loan ?
Why is it that a single or divorced applicant earning less can get a larger loan to buy a flat, than a larger household earning a higher income ?
How are Singaporeans expected to have more children, and/or stay with their parents, when the more family members you have, the harder it is to get a HDB loan ?
Why is the HDB not transparent in disclosing the process, criteria, formula and methodology ; in means testing loan applicants on the loan quantum ?
Why does the HDB use the threat of compulsory acquisition of flats, for those who are in arrears - given the general perception that the “compulsory acquisition” valuation may generally be lower than selling in the open market ?
Can the HDB give us the statistics as to how many flat-owners in arrears, have been coerced into selling in the open market ?
Depending on the statistic in answer to the above question, does the HDB still maintain its position that only 360 flat-owners voluntarily surrendered their flats from 2003 to 2006 ?
Isn’t the HDB re-sale levy of up to $ 40,000 for those who upgrade to a new flat, instead of a re-sale flat, discriminatory against flat-owners whose flats are in negative equity or in arrears ?
Isn’t the HDB’s policies self-contradictory, when it’s income ceiling policy “forces” the lower-income to buy larger flats than they can afford (see below for a detailed explanation), its new flat purchase and concessionary loan eligibility policy for upgraders only, and it loan eligibility and “means testing” policy denies adequate loans to larger and lower-income families ?
Aren’t some of the above policies discriminatory against lower-income or larger families ?
Shouldn’t the HDB be accountable to Parliament, when it decided to “means test” from 1 January 2007 ? Was any approval sought or debated in Parliament ?
Income ceiling “force” lower-income to buy bigger flats ?
I refer to the articles “$ 645K HBD’s priciest flats go on sale : Pinnacle@Duxton units are among 992 released for sale yesterday” (ST, Sep 27) and “New HDB flats for sale, rent in West” (ST, Aug 27).
It states that “The 94 three-room flats will have a floor area of 67 sq m each and cost $ 138,000 to $ 170,000”/
This means that the average cost of the new three-room flats is $ 154,000
($ 138,000 plus $ 170,000 divided by 2).
The monthly mortgage repayment for a 30-year HDB loan at 2.6 per cent interest on a 90 per cent loan of $ 138,000 (90% of $ 154,000) is about $ 554.
In this connection, HDB’s income eligibility requires a household earning more than $ 2,000 a month to buy a flat that is bigger than a two-room flat.
So, for a household earning say $ 2,001, after utilising the CPF Ordinary Account (OA) monthly contribution of $ 460 and cash of $ 94 to pay the monthly mortgage, one is left with a disposable income of $ 1,506 ($ 2,000 less employee’s 20 per cent CPF contribution minus $ 94).
Assuming a household of a couple with two children with expenditure of $ 685 (utilities $ 100 plus service and conservancy fee $ 35 plus transport $ 400 plus children’s educational costs $ 150 plus miscellaneous other expenses $ 100), one is left with $ 721. This amount enables just about $ 6 per day per family member for food ($ 21 divided by 30 divided by 4 family members).
If the household has non-working parents of the working couple, the financial stress may be even greater. Similarly, a household earning just over $ 3,000, is also not eligible to buy a three-room flat, and have to buy a four-room flat.
In view of the above, is the HDB’s income eligibility, which I understand has not been changed for many years, despite increasing new HDB flat prices, forcing Singaporeans to buy bigger flats than what they can afford ?
To what extent has this contributed to the financial stress of Singaporeans ?
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Should not the amount of SGD3000 eligibility for buying three room flats goes up according to inflation & other factors? I believe an income of SGD5000 should be imposed instead?
Hi Leong Sze Hian, can you do a research on the actual cost of building an HBD flat with and without the land. Maybe can get estimate the figures for the past five years. I heard that only recently construction cost had almost doubled. 3 year back it only cost about 40-50k to build a flat.
Also why is it in KL it is possible to buy a nice condo with about RM300k, RM150k for entry level condo.
I’m saying this is that generally the living standard is much lower than the people of KL with similar qualifications. As the HBD are designed so badly and they are so ugly.
Hi justkaypoh
I agree absolutely with your remarks that there needs to be transparency in breaking down the construction, land costs, etc
I have several letters published in the media over the years relating to this matter.
As ordinary citizens and layman, it may be quite difficult for us to estimate - make guesses.
Cheers
Leong Sze Hian
i’m nt sure if the understanding of hdb construction cost will be an important point to present in calling for cheaper selling cost of new hdb flat.
hdb is supposed to provide an affordable housing for our people. but if we look at the sky rocket price of new hdb, how can a lower-medium family afford one? what can be done to help them own a flat?
furthermore, application for new hdb flat only caters to married couples, which lies the hidden agenda of “forcing” people to get married. how about those low/medium income singles who want a shelter over their head?
Hi Leong, thanks for your reply.
The figures of 40-50k cost per flat I got are from contractors and civil engineer. Perhaps from all our network we can gather professionals from area to come out with an estimate and publish them. This will put HDB to shame since they die die refuse to give us the figures, we aren’t stupid not to find for ourselves.
There an irony that the govt kept saying that we are first world and have one of the highest income on average. But look at the housing conditions of 80% of the population, most are not fit to be of ‘2nd’ world standards not to mention 1st world.
Once heard from a Chinese tourist who ask. “are there a lot of poor people in Singapore?” as he was looking at the conditions of the HDB flat.
Perhaps we can work on the irony of the real living standards of Singaporeans in comparison with developing and developed countries
. E.g. comparing housing standards the tertiary grads (poly and Uni) from sg to those in Msia, Aussie, China, HK etc. Just by comparing GDP is no use as money is only relevant to the qualify of things that one can buy.
Fake hope! the garment WILL NOT review the actual cost of building a flat to the citizen. If they do dare to review the truth, I think there will be a riot in sg. Remember what the minister says. . . . oh the flats here are heavily subsidized by the garment so as to make it “AFFORDABLE” to the citizens, my poot eh! wait long long, can’t imagine how LIES can be used so easily these days and thinking all the citizens are just plain stupid, they complain complain, later everything will just quiet down anyway and lets move on. . . .
Erm justkaypoh, you are asking these people to commit commercial suicide…
If they ever officially divulge such details, I don’t think they will ever get contracts from HDB or any related entities (and there are a lot of related entities)…
But if I did not remember wrongly, there were some open tenders previously that had gave a rough idea of the construction cost before the HDB stopped disclosing these tenders…
They also went on to say that we can’t base the cost on just construction alone but also must price in the infrastructure blah blah blah…
Wait a minute - isn’t the infrastructure supposed to be borne by the government since it is public domain?
They can’t price it like a private condo because the condo can and do restrict access to non-residents…
Taking the argument a step further - if I buy a piece of land to build my own house - I don’t need to pay for the road access, street lamps and whatsnot right?
So why should the HDB charge these to the flat buyer?
Funny, no! ridiculous.
High income and owners/residents of high value properties not entitle to full rebates for lower class hospitalisation charges.
Citizens with household income of S$2000 and above no freedom to choose public housing flats of less than two rooms. Ruling such as this inhumanely takes away the Individual Rights of Freedom of choice of his/her house, not that buying a HDB is a choice in the first place. NONSENSICAL!
Will there be a day when Singaporeans above a certain income have to go foodcourts and restaurants for meals because they are bar from hawker centres. Oh yes, there was suggestion that S$290 of Social Welfare Money could get the recipients to have his/her meal at restaurants. Possible of course, for a meal in a restaurant, the recipient will have to go without meal for some days.
I just hope and hope and hope that Singapore will not get less and less and less humane a society.
Eh.. what happened to another article by Leong .. about these couple called “YAP”…
How come the topic is removed???
hdb used to be building homes for the people at affordable price. giving people a stake in the country.
now with the profit motive, it is like the hospitals. pay as much as you can afford to pay. you are not allow to buy below your means according to their formula. their main concern is to make you spend more.
this is how a great housing programme is turning into a great squeezing machine. hang a mill under your neck.
From the discussions and comments found in this blog, it seems that singaporeans are not exactly well informed about many things .
SAD.
We badly need alternative source of information in addition to MSM.
Information is Power. Without it, you stand to be cheated.
Of course! Information is power. We have alot of “GOOD INFORMATIONS” everyday at ST. . . . and our radio 90.50 of 95.00fm “HEAR ONLY THE GOOD THINGS” even our paliament debates are no longer allowed to be aired on our National tele as there are many Q???? either left unanswered or just answers that can even make a donkey laugh . . . .
Oh you mean Class 95 ’s Flying dutchman? That businessman cum radi dj now acting in an advertisement he received ? Listen carefully to all the BlogTV episodes. Listen carefully to all that he had said.
I switched off the tele after watching BlogTV for 2 episodes.
TOC’s Choo was on the program before.
The other BlogTV host is very ‘MetroSexual’. Not a dirty word right?
HDB used to build house for citizens whose could not afford to buy more expensive house. Now they try to suck our money and our blood if we need to get a house to start a family. When they saw some people rich enough to pay big sum for resale flat, they thought everyone of us are rich so they also raise the price of new HDB flat till sky high. Price so high, units so little yet so many people queuing. Sooner or later Singapore population could only maintain if people from other country keep migrating here and reproduction within Singapore become a fairy tale. Anyway HDB and PAP don’t really care, or they lack the foresight to see the whole picture. When PAP sucks all the money from us, we have little money, we will save it for eating. When small fishes die, medium fishes die, big fish also die. If I were in charge of HDB, I will maintain the HDB flat at a price slightly more than development cost. I know when economy is good, price of things increase, people salary don’t increase, when economy is bad, people die from the housing loan. I will also build more new flats ahead so that people can start a new family anytime when they are ready.
13) Crass 94.9 on October 10th, 2008 6.51 pm
Don’t really know whether it is flying dutchman or lady or baby, so long as only want you to know ONLY THE GOOD THINGS. We can’t really blame them either as they are also under media control as I once heard something like “oops can’t really speak much on air” you know what I mean.
Sze Hian,
I am going to play the devil’s advocate today. What say you, let’s privatize HDB and see whether the pricing structure will be better off than what it is now? Or whether there will be more transparency and accountability as you sort to know.
So the call to disclose the cost of building; it is out-right ridiculous and ludicrous. You as a financial expert should know well enough that cost is relative. Construction and Material cost is only a factor of the price, do they need to disclose the direct and indirect cost as well and the profit margin? So will you or your company you own or work with disclose the make up of your salary package if it is a public listed company?
To those who already owned a HDB years back, please don’t tell me the amount you paid for or finance for did not appreciate. Don’t deal with a single side of the story. THere is always two sides to a coin.
By the way, we are not forced to purchase a HDB, there are private housing available if you think you can afford it. If you want to talk about housing issues, counter it with private property and developers as well to make your story more credible. The private property developers are making a living as well in Singapore, are they not?
Observer(SG-HK) ,
Just think about it if HDB is privatize (or rather let pte developers build HDB flat just like the DBSS scheme now) . The quality and the design will be many times better then the ugly HDB flats design. So if they charge somewhat higher then the HDB flat will be quite reasonable.
Let me tell you, why are HDB flat are so ugly and badly design in a FIRST WORLD country? Because they are simply INCOMPETENT! They did not give us a value for money product.
Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?
You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?
If we can somewhat control and limit speculation, I believe most sgreans will live in nicer apartments at about the same price they are paying for an HDB now.
Related topic on HDB prices - Resale HDB prices.
The galloping HDB resale prices of about 50% to 70% in the last 2 years is creating suffering to the ordinary Singapore citizen who have to compete to buy a decent HDB flat. Singaporean who do not own any flat now, marrying couple who cannot wait so long for a new HDB flat to be built, unnecessary life time financial commitment .
The main causes are:
1) Influx of foreigners who easily gained PR or citizenship in recent years.
2) Cash rich private owners whose en-bloc windfall have huge amount of cash to paid up even a S$750k HDB flat in cash with space cash to buy maybe 2 more!
3) HDB cutting down building new HDB flat to a on-demand programme.
4) Relaxation of HDB rules on renting & singles buying any type of HDB flat, leading to cash rich owners buying HDB flat , not for staying but to rent it out at crazy rent. 3-rm HDB flat was $800/month can now go for $1800, an increase of over 120% higher than 2 years ago.
These are depriving ordinary Singapore citizen a decent life here.
Let’s take a comparison.
The current cost of building a typical semi detached double storey house up north would be about RM180K ie S$75K - floor tiles and bath fittings included, Inclusive of piling works (40K+). So house structure is about S$60K for 2200 sq. ft built up.
If not mistaken about 10 years ago a HDB contractor inform a tender price of S$32K for 5 room units. Assuming a doubling in price then S$64K current price.
Believe the typical HDB unit is prefab so the cost would only be slightly higher than neighbouring countries.
correction: “You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. ”
Should be: You may think that if there’s no HDB, The property prices will be more expensive then the current HDB flat prices.
“#16) To those who already owned a HDB years back, please don’t tell me the amount you paid for or finance for did not appreciate. Don’t deal with a single side of the story. THere is always two sides to a coin.”
So ? For those low income earners and those who are unable to afford private properties, HDB is their only “low cost” or “affordable” property. If you sell one at a appreciated high price, you also need to buy another one as a replacement to live unless you are talking about downgrade.
The old ways which enabled people to make really money from buying and selling HDB flats have more or less being corrected.
It will only benefit those who buys HDB flats as second properties and this
group of people usually have private properties in the first place. They treat either one as their investment properties.
“By the way, we are not forced to purchase a HDB, there are private housing available if you think you can afford it. ”
You are beginning to talk big as people of your category probably can manage it quite comfortably.
If you price HDB flats just 1 or 2 thousands below private housing, you can still claim that it is cheaper and nobody is forcing you.
“let’s privatize HDB and see whether the pricing structure will be better off than what it is now? Or whether there will be more transparency and accountability as you sort to know.”
Then we should also “privatise” away the whole affair of running a lot things in this country just like in Hong Kong where you are staying. Where the overall cost & revenue structure of anything can be freely discussed, speculated & debated in the public forum - not only in the Net - with the governing having to face off a very vocal group of population once in awhile.
15) tiredsingaporean on October 11th, 2008 1.12 pm 13) Crass 94.9 on October 10th, 2008 6.51 pm
Don’t really know whether it is flying dutchman or lady or baby, so long as only want you to know ONLY THE GOOD THINGS. We can’t really blame them either as they are also under media control as I once heard something like “oops can’t really speak much on air” you know what I mean.
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But then they still continue working there….
on the questions on HDB policy,
I suggest inviting the chief of HDB to a live TOC interview and capture it on film and broadcast live on internet for him to answer all our questions.
Mr Ngiam TD , you free or not? Many want to ask you some questions.
Just Another Singaporean (#21):
well said. rather than being a stat board that provide affordable housing for our people, it has become a vehicle to generate more revenue for the govt. similarly for other GLCs and other policies implemented, which i shan’t discussed in this thread.
But i’m not sure if ur views on “privatise away the whole affair of running a lot things in this country………with the governing having to face off a very vocal group of population once in awhile” works.
singapore is still a small country with no natural resources nor established cutting edge technology. one of the main attracting factors for companies to invest in singapore is its political and social stability.
that’s the reason i do believe in an amicable relationship between the govt and our citizens, together we seek a peaceful resolution for the problems we are facing.
I wasn’t concerned with current affairs till recent price hike. the authorities do not seems to be listening to our woes. i do hope the authorities can start listening to us and try to our difficulties.
there is a threshold on how much a citizen can endure in silence. i hope the govt can start listening its people, our fellow citizens soon.
22) Man with integrity on October 12th, 2008 9.33 pm 15) tiredsingaporean on October 11th, 2008 1.12 pm 13) Crass 94.9 on October 10th, 2008 6.51 pm
Don’t really know whether it is flying dutchman or lady or baby, so long as only want you to know ONLY THE GOOD THINGS. We can’t really blame them either as they are also under media control as I once heard something like “oops can’t really speak much on air” you know what I mean.
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But then they still continue working there….
Of course lah! then where you want them to work? karaoke DJ iggit???
17) justkaypoh on October 12th, 2008 1.12 am
“Just think about it if HDB is privatize (or rather let pte developers build HDB flat just like the DBSS scheme now) . The quality and the design will be many times better then the ugly HDB flats design. So if they charge somewhat higher then the HDB flat will be quite reasonable.”
What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore? Have you find out what’s the price variance between the two? Get real. Private developers are there to make money. If someday you become a private developer and price your “better quality” developed housing “somewhat higher” than the HDB pricing of the same square area, let me know. I will definitely invest in one.
“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”
Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?
“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”
This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics. This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?
21) Just Another Singaporean on October 12th, 2008 4.46 pm
“The old ways which enabled people to make really money from buying and selling HDB flats have more or less being corrected.”
I see, so HDB housing was set up as profiteering tool instead. It is exactly this abuse that attributed to the drastic change. So it is the Housing Authority fault again? Or was it the greed of some people? Will you use the same statement to argue with HDB Housing Authority to sort for “Cost Disclosure”, “Transparency and Accountability”?
“You are beginning to talk big as people of your category probably can manage it quite comfortably.”
That is your assumption and expected typical response and also an individual thought that no one can force you not to think in that direction. I do respect that though.
As to your idea of privatizing the whole affair of things…etc Someone had given you the answer. You might like to know as well, not all issues are debated openly in Hong Kong. What you see and hear is only a fraction. No doubt, Hong Kong is a better open society in comparison to Singapore.As well, the Hong Kong people are also more matured in their thinking (in most issues). However, when it comes to housing issues, they respected the free market economy practice and Hong Kong people in employment are not paid excessively as most like to imagine.
You see, someone ask me in another related article about praising people. Personally, it is always very easy to play the devil’s advocate, similarly, praising people is just a walk in the park. You may not like to hear the truth and choose to mentally blocked alternative views. It is human nature when a majority lean towards an issue that can be easily contested with reasoning, the opposing views will always meet with adversed response.
Read between the lines in my comment #16. I certainly would like Sze Hian to response on his concurrence to “Cost Disclosure” from his perspective as a financial expert.
25) Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 12.35 pm
“As well, the Hong Kong people are also more matured in their thinking (in most issues). However, when it comes to housing issues, they respected the free market economy practice and Hong Kong people in employment are not paid excessively as most like to imagine.”
Housing is one of the collective mix of issues. Respect is mutual & it must be earned where you gain some and you lose some like what someone has said previously in this site - a trade-off.
Hong Kong (I guess you know better) has a lot of sparring opportunities and this itself has evolved into a more matured society to the extent where they collectively know somehow that certain things can be pushed and when certain things cannot be pushed - this comes from a more freer environment where testing of boundaries is there. I guess you also know that Singapore has quite plentiful of Hong Kong people.
This feeds on itself - a positive circular loop.
26) Hello, Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 12.55 pm
I have no issues with your analysis on the freer environment in Hong Kong as far as freedom of speech is concerned. I too have no issues with your take that Housing is a collective mix of issues.
No on what you think that Hong Kong people know certain issues can be pushed and so on. They pushed for every single thing concerning money even many felt uncalled for. Those so called elected democratic party representatives are quick in instigating because there is hidden agenda and political self interest.Some opposed for the sake of opposing to build constituent vote. When you hear them out, there are no substance in their opposing views let alone a counter resolution proposition.
Give you an example, the recent debacle on the possible compensation of Minibond failed investment by some investors. If you read the development in HK, some mindless and senseless people are demanding the HK government to top up the difference to make it full refund payment for those lost investors in the event that those banks worked out the proption to compensate if ever they come to this decision and evidence had proof that some of involved bank staff had mislead or misrepresented. At whose expense? what has that got to do with ordinary HK citizenry who do not even have enough to make ends meet? Do you think this is fair? But no, no democratic representative thought of this. So what do you make out of this?
Singaporeans by and large are just lazy or too kiasi to get involve and wanted things handed on a plate to them. On one hand complain about the government policies, on the other hand, want the government to regulate, get involve and solve the issues when it hurt their pockets. The commonest excuse I heard is ..oh we are be put into this environment to think this way. Hey, nobody put a gun in your head. You are not in Cambodia, North Vietnam or North Korea. So tell me, will majority of Singaporean ever matured enough to know what and what not to push ..may be 10~20 years from now. But you know something, I heard this phrase eched some 20 years ago.
Honestly, how many true samaritans are there geuinely working voluntarily to help ordinaryt citizenry witout any self interest in Singapore?
You are in Hong Kong. You have got more accurate ground feel. No argument on the general content of your post.
“Those so called elected democratic party representatives are quick in instigating because there is hidden agenda and political self interest.”
Generally, more counter-checking parties are good. It spreads interest to a wider segment rather than in some concentrated pockets. This is what democracy is all about. Whyelse would parties want to dominate and hopefully to be in a position of absolute dominance for many good years if it can be so ? Not true ?
Coming to kiasi of getting involved, so do you think that fellow Singaporeans should proceed ahead with the protests outside DBS building even after the police warning. I presume you have read about it.
Just want to have your view on this to size up what you mean by “Singaporeans by and large are just lazy or too kiasi to get involve”.
Or perhaps, I misinterpreted and your getting involved means to cover ” true samaritans are there geuinely working voluntarily to help ordinaryt citizenry witout any self interest in Singapore.”
28) Hello, Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 3.38 pm
Let me try to sum up my general sentiment. Don’t be mistaken, I am all for check and balance, transparency and accountability but I am dead against unfounded and uncalled for opposing views (that has suspicion of self interest) that may or will otherwise end up at the expense of the ordinary innocent citizenry.
It takes two to clap and things do not just happened. There is always cause and reason behind every event. Simply put, you reap what you sow. There are plentiful of ordinary citizenry who hope to live a serene life that not necessary with enormous wealth.
For the case you cited. If they truly felt they had been mislead (without an inch of self greed), then I think they should go all out to claim what was supposedly theirs to begin with. But at the end of the day, we know if it ended up as litigation, evidence and hard facts will rule over emotion. If this is the case, I like to see that none of them who got help legally are charge a single penny.
29) Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 6.33 pm
No argument over your reply. Given our situation, I do sense that it is the very lack of strong opposition which is taken as “given” to the expense of the ordinary innocent citizenry.
“I am dead against unfounded and uncalled for opposing views (that has suspicion of self interest) that may or will otherwise end up at the expense of the ordinary innocent citizenry.”
While this is true, it could also be a red-herring simply appealing to fear which is not uncommon in our case.
“There are plentiful of ordinary citizenry who hope to live a serene life that not necessary with enormous wealth.”
Definitely, there are such people as you mentioned. But so far, are we able to show our hands in a concerted manner to indicate some other shades of life that we perceive to equally pleasant.
The rough proportion can never be known if the platform enabling such indication is delibrately made to be absent.
Well, previously no protests allowed. Now, protests allowed in HLG and you see some taking place. If protests are allowed in the street, what do you think ?
30) Hello, Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 7.17 pm
“If protests are allowed in the street, what do you think ?”
This hypothetical scenario will take decades to materialize in Singland. Assuming it does happen, depending on the issues. See what is happening in Thailand. Reasonable protest? In that particular incident, I only said it disrupted the otherwise peaceful live of the innocents. It is difficult to draw the fine line what is considered reasonable when we let emotion rule over our senses. Nevertheless, if the situation you painted really exist, then I would said Singapore had reached maturity at least in the name of true democracy. Most importantly, by then complete freedom of speech and expression is liberated.
Observer(SG-HK)
“What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore?”
I really depend on the market forces if anti-speculation are in place, they should not go so high (so truly reflect a better demand-supply market). Also with scheme like DBSS, HDB rules are already enforce in private like condos. Do you know what is DBSS?
Hmm, you don’t find the private property nicer then HDB? You can’t differentiate? Well then its better for you just to stay in ugly looking HDB flat even if you are rich. Well if they are not nicer when are the private properties prices higher than HDB flats? Then our ministers should also live in HDB flats.
Justkaypoh:“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”
“Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? “
“Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?”
Oh how’s its feels like living in timbaktu? Are the properties there nicer then sg?
Well can you tell the difference between a profit-centered listed company and a democratic accountable civic government? I’m quite surprise that you can’t see the BIG difference.
Can’t really blame you also, since maybe for all your like you are being brainwash by the corporate minded sg govt.
The govt should be civic centered to SERVE the people and not to SECRETLY profit big time. So what is the for the HDB to hide? Citizen had all the rights to know as we are owner of this country. This is not like a highly classified info ok?
Yes the major shareholders have the rights to know the costs of the products. Each citizen hold equal rights similar to a shareholder(there’s no major or minor shareholder).
the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?
Justkaypoh:“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”
“This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics.”
Well maybe you are not quite informed in this aspect.
So? You mean that is good and healthy? Do you know that a lot of countries have good properties anti-speculation measures? They also have foreigners buying restriction.
“Why then HDB flats and landed forbids foreigners to buy? Why? Since you said must be free market economy.”
All you ever thought that Singapore is different from bigger countries as our land is very limited and can be “easily” manipulated e.g. the recently enbloc craze that sent our properties prices spirally up. Do you know that it’s the coordinated efforts by developers and overseas funds that drive them up at such speed?
Just like stock counters that have a small market caps are often targets for manipulation rather then stocks with bigger market caps. Why do you think that the stock exchanges have anti-manipulation rules? Do you also know that speculative property markets like HK had their markets crash so badly that people commit suicide and go bankrupt? How about the world property bubble now?
“This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?”
Ya, haven’t you hear that the JB people are complaining, but for this case, this thing actually brings up the JB economy as their people can profit from it by doing business.
For sg properties, only the very few rich Singaporeans profit from foreigners buying (esp. those who don’t even stay here, those who stay here at least have a good reason to let them buy). And these Singaporeans are those are have multiple investment properties.
“If protests are allowed in the street, what do you think ?”
I really do not know. Whoever can tell you for sure is probably God.
It may be from harmless peaceful ones to those extremely chaotic life-destroying ones with burning of properties and killing of lives. I really don’t know.
Learning from past history, I do know that bottled-up disatisfaction will always finally find an outlet, if not in the form of protests now, it could well be, in the extreme case, revolutions of the same chaotic scale like the one mentioned above if that right & unpredictable condition is triggered - and this will happen as a matter of time, perhaps within our lifetime or perhaps not.
No one is advocating a free-for-all anarchism but it must not be a case where one is given the impression that everything is hunky-dory here - to the extent that serious greviances are downplayed (or even made to sound as though they are unwarranted rantings) and there is ‘no sense of urgency’ to rectify whatever problem there may be.
* let me tell you a story of a high-pressure pipe. If increasing pressure keeps on building up in a pipe, it is going to explode from the weakest point where there could be a slight fissure. If all along there is a hole in the pipe, whatever pressure built up will just escape from the point in a smooth non threatening manner.
32) Hello, Observer(SG-HK) on October 16th, 2008 10.33 am
I can comprehend where you are coming to on your pressure pipe analogy. Without a doubt if things persist as is now, may be the out-burst will happen (but in SingLand Context? I really doubted it).
I once jokingly mentioned to a group of closed friends here in Hong Kong on the discontent sentiments that is happening in Singapore over the past years and posted a hypothetical situation just to hear reactions from foreign voices. What is the possibility of someday SingLand will have the kind of demonstration that took place in July 1 2003 (the largest ever peaceful protest over Basic Laws enforcement in Hong Kong) but in a more explosive way. They responded with uncontrolled laughters.
I did mention before with a certain personality passed on, things might permanently changed for the better (or worse). But one thing for sure, there were be heated arguments and political tussle even within party lines. Econmoically, we must be prepared to braised for some heavy losses at the expenses of us ordinary tax payers. Chaotic situation may evolve as a daily ritual until a compromise can be reached. When the dust had settle down, it will be a brand new beginning for all to equally contest but this time in a gloabize stage as the backdrop. It is not such a bad thing afterall if it did ever happen. Obviously, all these hypothethical scenarios may only happen in a movie. Don’t be to taken by it.
No arguments over the prevailing though process of people. People are so used to see a set pattern. A set pattern will hold given some dominant prevailing factor (group of factors) - I leave the speculation to you.
“hypothethical scenarios may only happen in a movie. Don’t be to taken by it.”
Earthquakes and tsunamis do not come announced in advance.
“hypothethical scenarios may only happen in a movie. Don’t be to taken by it.”
If only it is those science-fictions which I am quite convinced may not happen in the near future. But not if it is human conflicts who are happening all the time, even now in a lot of countries.
Observer(SG-HK) , will you be giving me a reply? well, I guess I that it that you agreed with my arguments. thanks
34) Hello, Observer(SG-HK) on October 16th, 2008 11.11 am
As the chinese expression: “If you pushed the back of the tiger against the wall” with no alternative route of escape, be warn, it may just leap and hit you back with uncontrolled vegence. By then, it is unstoppable until blood is drawn. Between survival and death, human do possess that invincible and invisible explosive force that one never know when it will be release with a hair trigger. So with this, I do concur with your last sentence (but not in SingLand context).
In conclusion, time is the best testament. In reality, no one knows when enough is enough. We human only have one life to live, the essence of living is how each one of us value its worthiness. Some can’t live without enormous wealth and greed, some will happily live without much as material wealth is nothing but a tiny grain of sand that will be easily blown away or dissipated when one reaches the end of his/her life span (of natural cause not including of unforsee natural disasater or man made disaster). No power exist forever just a matter of how long. May be another 20, 50, 100 years? Or it may be ended with natural disaster like global climate change, natural castetrophic event that no nation or men can save. If you are a fan of Nostradamus , you know what I mean.
35) justkaypoh on October 16th, 2008 1.11 pm
I am afraid you guess wrong. See post #25.
Observer,
25) tiredsingaporean on October 14th, 2008 12.36 pm
What are you talking about man.
You need to ask TOC. In my computer screen, it is shown as post #25. Anyway, I copied it and pasted in this section (my response to you). I replied to both you and Just Another Singaporean.
25) Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 12.35 pm
17) justkaypoh on October 12th, 2008 1.12 am
“Just think about it if HDB is privatize (or rather let pte developers build HDB flat just like the DBSS scheme now) . The quality and the design will be many times better then the ugly HDB flats design. So if they charge somewhat higher then the HDB flat will be quite reasonable.”
What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore? Have you find out what’s the price variance between the two? Get real. Private developers are there to make money. If someday you become a private developer and price your “better quality” developed housing “somewhat higher” than the HDB pricing of the same square area, let me know. I will definitely invest in one.
“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”
Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?
“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”
This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics. This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?
38) justkaypoh on October 16th, 2008 1.46 pm
I had replied you and even reproduce the entire reply (copy and paste) but it was put on moderation. Anyway, let me try it another time here.
17) justkaypoh on October 12th, 2008 1.12 am
“Just think about it if HDB is privatize (or rather let pte developers build HDB flat just like the DBSS scheme now) . The quality and the design will be many times better then the ugly HDB flats design. So if they charge somewhat higher then the HDB flat will be quite reasonable.”
What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore? Have you find out what’s the price variance between the two? Get real. Private developers are there to make money. If someday you become a private developer and price your “better quality” developed housing “somewhat higher” than the HDB pricing of the same square area, let me know. I will definitely invest in one.
“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”
Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?
“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”
This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics. This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?
Observer, maybe you miss out my post, its quite obvious.
Hope you can reply can counter argue intelligently.
33) justkaypoh on Your comment is awaiting moderation. October 16th, 2008 12.05 am.
36) Observer (SG-HK) on October 16th, 2008 1.30 pm
You are a reasonable guy and I appreciate your well meaning.
I guess at the end of the day, the stick still counts a lot and sometimes it takes a bigger stick to negate the effect of a smaller stick even though very much as we would like to feel that good reasons shall prevail.
Unfortunate but true, sometimes we have a culture to talk more about tigers rather than a good system - a creature which symbolizes fear. Men’s greed for power. Certain cultures just have a self-reinforcing built-in mentality to learn the long and hard way or even stagnate or even regress , sometimes at the expense of the powerless group.
Thanks for your views and we shall end our discourse on this tread. Stay around to contribute.
32) justkaypoh on October 16th, 2008 12.05 am
I believe you are intelligent enough to know that “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder”. Every individual holds a different perspective and interpretation to things that are abstract.
Are you implying that your claim of “UGLY HDB Design” is the defacto description for the rest of the 80 odd percentile of population in Singapore who are now living in HDB or you meant to insult the choice of this group of people?
Incidentally, yes, I do live in a HDB and I am happy about it including the design. And by the way, living in HDB has no relation to wealth and wealth is not necessary material wealth. There are a good number of citizenry I knew who shared this definition of wealth but we do respect other people’s interpretation. Likewise in other abstract word such as “UGLY”. May be you are right, older people like us really lost touched with the young and smart Singaporean like you.
What you are advocating is protectionism or perhaps you are against a free market economy as far as private housing is concerned. Or may be you are just zealous over the people who can afford to buy them by the dozen. What’s makes you think it is purely for speculation? You talk about anti-speculation in other country; I am talking within the current Singapore system that you have to live with it. Senseless bickering is not going to change anything for you neither is throwing terminology nor knowing the cost of construction (how much truth is there in the numbers, can you verify?). So what good does it brings you if you are so well verse with the Design Build Sell Scheme?
Here’s a simple question to you. Are you being force to choose this scheme? Anyway, it should not affect you right, as their design is so UGLY in your words.
HDB was never created for non-Singaporean to purchase to begin with nether was it created for profiteering. It is exactly the greed of some people who abuses the system that possibly contributed to provide reasoning of the HDB Housing Authorities to embark drastic measures to curb speculation.
If there is anything that I like them to be more transparent and accountable for is the Town Council who manages the SC fees. That I will find it more credible then what has been raised in this article or the suggestion of disclosure of the construction cost and using Malaysia pricing structure as a guideline to compare with HDB housing.
Hey guys, so much of talk but why is the opposition parties having hard time finding suitable candidates to fight for seats in the Parliament? Can we talk less and do more? Can we really stand up for the doubts we have? No point asking for transparency and yet do nothing on them. If that is the case, we cant blame somebody for failure to disclose just for the sake of disclosing.. do you like to see an email everyday with just “FYI”?
Every efforts should rightfully happen for a justification. Absolute Disclosure shouldn’t be taken as a de facto standard. Although i am unhappy with our somebody for some things they do, i must still agree that they are still doing a reasonable job to ensure fundamental needs are satisfied.
Please…. THINK in BREATH and DEPTH
“I believe you are intelligent enough to know that “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder”. Every individual holds a different perspective and interpretation to things that are abstract.
Are you implying that your claim of “UGLY HDB Design” is the defacto description for the rest of the 80 odd percentile of population in Singapore who are now living in HDB or you meant to insult the choice of this group of people?”
I’m not sure do you understand what is “以偏概全” , your view don’t represent the vast majority, you did not answer me why does the ministers not live in HDB designed and build under their leadership? As I’d mentioned in my previous post. Does the private prices are higher? Because most people see them as nicer, well do you think they are idiots to pay much higher price for things that are not better and nicer?
Didn’t my previous post really suggest that it’s the fault of HDB to build poor quality (poor designed) flat are overprice rates?
Why should I insult the 80% population of my dear fellow citizens man, I live in a 3rm HDB flat man. Are you talking about “CHOICE” ? You mean we had a choice not to live in HDB? If not should we live in tents in east coast? Or under the bridge, please think carefully before you post, where’s the choice man.
“Incidentally, yes, I do live in a HDB and I am happy about it including the design. And by the way, living in HDB has no relation to wealth and wealth is not necessary material wealth. There are a good number of citizenry I knew who shared this definition of wealth but we do respect other people’s interpretation. “
If assume you are given a choice to stay in a nice condo and a not so nice HDB without you paying, which one will you choose? Assume the location is the same for both. If you still choose HDB, then you may be those which are in a million person.
When did I say that living in HDB has to do with one’s wealth? Can you please quote? Hello, please read carefully man, don’t put words into other’s ‘people mouth’
Likewise in other abstract word such as “UGLY”. May be you are right, older people like us really lost touched with the young and smart Singaporean like you.”
While may to you there’s nothing ‘ugly’ you may want to delete this word from you dictionary. Relative to you it may be abstract, but the actual fact, most people I know do NOT think they are nicer, they include locals, foreigners from 1st , 2nd and 3rd world countries. There’s a Chinese PRC who ask ‘are they a lot of poor people in Singapore?’ . Even the middle incomers in Chinese cities(also KL) live in better apartment then most Singaporeans.
“What you are advocating is protectionism or perhaps you are against a free market economy as far as private housing is concerned. Or may be you are just zealous over the people who can afford to buy them by the dozen. What’s makes you think it is purely for speculation? “
Mr Observer, then I suppose you are for ‘free market economy’? Didn’t you see what kinda mess the US has got into with this ‘free market economy’? Even LKY and our govt don’t advocate ‘total free market economy. You did not answer my e.g. on HDB and landed do not allow foreigners to buy. Even you yourself said/suggest that HDB should be privatize lest the prices will shoot up. You seems to be contradicting yourself. Can you make up your mind?
Certain market just be a total free market? Do you know why NTUC Fairprice was set up? Its exactly because of what you said ‘free economy’ that causes traders to manipulate the prices of food then. That’s why we needed a co-op. Do you understand now?
“You talk about anti-speculation in other country; I am talking within the current Singapore system that you have to live with it.”
Oh, you mean I can’t refer to other countries? Then you can tell that to the govt, SPH etc this also. Didn’t you know they kept referring and comparing with other countries? They go overseas to learn from other countries (e.g. recently they went to HK to stay the public housing) You forgot your nick is Observer(SG-HK)? Why do you compare SG with HK man? You are applying double standard man.
“Senseless bickering is not going to change anything for you neither is throwing terminology nor knowing the cost of construction (how much truth is there in the numbers, can you verify?). “
If you want to use the word ‘senseless’ to describe me and legions of those who wants an answer, please quote the logic on why is its ‘senseless’ rather then just pure name calling.
Do you mean that estimation of the construction costs of HDB flats are rocket science which are so complex? Just ask people in the trade, they can give an estimate. From previous post someone said that the tender price for HDB used to be a open knowledge, the average cost then (few years back) was about 50k per unit.
“So what good does it brings you if you are so well verse with the Design Build Sell Scheme?”
Let me quote an example of a DBSS project. The “Premiere” in tampines are condo-like HDB property, but they are designed and build by private developers, but the rules are HDB. They prices about 2 years back then was only 300k-500k. Which are the prices of the HDB flats now. “Affordable” for that sense, yet much higher qualify for the same price. Being so, our quality of life actually increase.
“Here’s a simple question to you. Are you being force to choose this scheme? Anyway, it should not affect you right, as their design is so UGLY in your words.”
I hope my previous explanation clears your misunderstanding.
“HDB was never created for non-Singaporean to purchase to begin with nether was it created for profiteering. It is exactly the greed of some people who abuses the system that possibly contributed to provide reasoning of the HDB Housing Authorities to embark drastic measures to curb speculation.”
I thought you advocated ‘free market economy’? you are right, HDB was NOT created to profiteer when our good pioneers build up Singapore in the 60s and 70s. But later they found out that they can virtually ‘print money’ by selling ‘close to market’ rate. HDB btw actually book a loss in their accounts, the really money goes to SLA, the amount is a SECRET of couse. This is unlike HK which reveal the revenue for land sales as their surplus.
“If there is anything that I like them to be more transparent and accountable for is the Town Council who manages the SC fees. That I will find it more credible then what has been raised in this article or the suggestion of disclosure of the construction cost and using Malaysia pricing structure as a guideline to compare with HDB housing.”
I found that your arguments are based on ‘personal’ preference basis. E.g. if you like certain things to be transparent then it should be transparent, if you don’t not think so then it should not.
The gist of advocating for transparent cost structure is to hopefully bring down the price and improve the quality/efficiency, especially so in a monopolistic market. To remind you its our OWN money, not theirs. What if your financial planners tell you can you know the cost of your insurance and the units?
Just like SP services can raise their prices eternally and cover up with half-baked illogical reasons in the name of corporate SECRECY. You mean you have a choice of power supply like running your own generators?
I’ve first hand experience with the HDB officers in their in-competencies which are a waste of taxpayer’s money. Just can’t imagine how much money are wasted they with our hard earned money. There’s too much details to disclose my ‘experience’ here, if you need proof, I can provide you.
In short, for most of our people our standard of living (housing) are much lower then those e.g. in KL, Beijing, ShangHai. (comparing people of similar caliber). This is the FRIST WORLD standard that your govt tells you.
James,
“Hey guys, so much of talk but why is the opposition parties having hard time finding suitable candidates to fight for seats in the Parliament?”
Well who’s prepared to be bankrupt, go to jail by ISA or whole family background being scrutinised?
“Can we talk less and do more? Can we really stand up for the doubts we have? No point asking for transparency and yet do nothing on them.”
So we can’t talk? don’ have the rights to talk? Can’t protest online? Sorry Sir! yes Sir! Join opposition nowadays also need bachelor at least and good credentials leh, not qualified, how arh? Please give practical suggestions, don’t just talk.
“If that is the case, we cant blame somebody for failure to disclose just for the sake of disclosing.. do you like to see an email everyday with just “FYI”?”
You mean we can’t know the info on our OWN money? Then tell your bank/insurance not to let you know your balances lor.
“Every efforts should rightfully happen for a justification. Absolute Disclosure shouldn’t be taken as a de facto standard.”
Well I’ve not seen a post who advocate “absolute disclosure” you are the only one who brought it up leh.
“Although i am unhappy with our somebody for some things they do, i must still agree that they are still doing a reasonable job to ensure fundamental needs are satisfied.”
eh so? can’t complain for those things we are not happy? worst then communist izzit?
“Please…. THINK in BREATH and DEPTH”
if you can’t reply to ALL my question without evading, you may need to think in more breath and depth, as they will stimulate your mind
Good rationale Sze Hian! HDB would not even help a mad old woman retain her rental flat (paid by volunteers) because no other old folk want to live with her (she defecate all over the place). What more people who are working and can buy flats? ~sigh~
Designs may be nicer eg. Seng Kang. But what is the use when the nearest kopitiam or 7-11 is more than say 7 blocks and 2 spacious carparks away? Not everyone drives!