Designs may be nicer eg. Seng Kang. But what is the use when the nearest kopitiam or 7-11 is more than say 7 blocks and 2 spacious carparks away? Not everyone drives!

“Hey guys, so much of talk but why is the opposition parties having hard time finding suitable candidates to fight for seats in the Parliament?”

Well who’s prepared to be bankrupt, go to jail by ISA or whole family background being scrutinised?

“Can we talk less and do more? Can we really stand up for the doubts we have? No point asking for transparency and yet do nothing on them.”

So we can’t talk? don’ have the rights to talk? Can’t protest online? Sorry Sir! yes Sir! Join opposition nowadays also need bachelor at least and good credentials leh, not qualified, how arh? Please give practical suggestions, don’t just talk.

“If that is the case, we cant blame somebody for failure to disclose just for the sake of disclosing.. do you like to see an email everyday with just “FYI”?”

You mean we can’t know the info on our OWN money? Then tell your bank/insurance not to let you know your balances lor.

“Every efforts should rightfully happen for a justification. Absolute Disclosure shouldn’t be taken as a de facto standard.”

Well I’ve not seen a post who advocate “absolute disclosure” you are the only one who brought it up leh.

“Although i am unhappy with our somebody for some things they do, i must still agree that they are still doing a reasonable job to ensure fundamental needs are satisfied.”

eh so? can’t complain for those things we are not happy? worst then communist izzit?

“Please…. THINK in BREATH and DEPTH”

if you can’t reply to ALL my question without evading, you may need to think in more breath and depth, as they will stimulate your mind

Are you implying that your claim of “UGLY HDB Design” is the defacto description for the rest of the 80 odd percentile of population in Singapore who are now living in HDB or you meant to insult the choice of this group of people?”

I’m not sure do you understand what is “以偏概全” , your view don’t represent the vast majority, you did not answer me why does the ministers not live in HDB designed and build under their leadership? As I’d mentioned in my previous post. Does the private prices are higher? Because most people see them as nicer, well do you think they are idiots to pay much higher price for things that are not better and nicer?

Didn’t my previous post really suggest that it’s the fault of HDB to build poor quality (poor designed) flat are overprice rates?
Why should I insult the 80% population of my dear fellow citizens man, I live in a 3rm HDB flat man. Are you talking about “CHOICE” ? You mean we had a choice not to live in HDB? If not should we live in tents in east coast? Or under the bridge, please think carefully before you post, where’s the choice man.

“Incidentally, yes, I do live in a HDB and I am happy about it including the design. And by the way, living in HDB has no relation to wealth and wealth is not necessary material wealth. There are a good number of citizenry I knew who shared this definition of wealth but we do respect other people’s interpretation. “

If assume you are given a choice to stay in a nice condo and a not so nice HDB without you paying, which one will you choose? Assume the location is the same for both. If you still choose HDB, then you may be those which are in a million person.

When did I say that living in HDB has to do with one’s wealth? Can you please quote? Hello, please read carefully man, don’t put words into other’s ‘people mouth’

Likewise in other abstract word such as “UGLY”. May be you are right, older people like us really lost touched with the young and smart Singaporean like you.”

While may to you there’s nothing ‘ugly’ you may want to delete this word from you dictionary. Relative to you it may be abstract, but the actual fact, most people I know do NOT think they are nicer, they include locals, foreigners from 1st , 2nd and 3rd world countries. There’s a Chinese PRC who ask ‘are they a lot of poor people in Singapore?’ . Even the middle incomers in Chinese cities(also KL) live in better apartment then most Singaporeans.

“What you are advocating is protectionism or perhaps you are against a free market economy as far as private housing is concerned. Or may be you are just zealous over the people who can afford to buy them by the dozen. What’s makes you think it is purely for speculation? “

Mr Observer, then I suppose you are for ‘free market economy’? Didn’t you see what kinda mess the US has got into with this ‘free market economy’? Even LKY and our govt don’t advocate ‘total free market economy. You did not answer my e.g. on HDB and landed do not allow foreigners to buy. Even you yourself said/suggest that HDB should be privatize lest the prices will shoot up. You seems to be contradicting yourself. Can you make up your mind?

Certain market just be a total free market? Do you know why NTUC Fairprice was set up? Its exactly because of what you said ‘free economy’ that causes traders to manipulate the prices of food then. That’s why we needed a co-op. Do you understand now?

“You talk about anti-speculation in other country; I am talking within the current Singapore system that you have to live with it.”

Oh, you mean I can’t refer to other countries? Then you can tell that to the govt, SPH etc this also. Didn’t you know they kept referring and comparing with other countries? They go overseas to learn from other countries (e.g. recently they went to HK to stay the public housing) You forgot your nick is Observer(SG-HK)? Why do you compare SG with HK man? You are applying double standard man.

“Senseless bickering is not going to change anything for you neither is throwing terminology nor knowing the cost of construction (how much truth is there in the numbers, can you verify?). “

If you want to use the word ‘senseless’ to describe me and legions of those who wants an answer, please quote the logic on why is its ‘senseless’ rather then just pure name calling.

Do you mean that estimation of the construction costs of HDB flats are rocket science which are so complex? Just ask people in the trade, they can give an estimate. From previous post someone said that the tender price for HDB used to be a open knowledge, the average cost then (few years back) was about 50k per unit.

“So what good does it brings you if you are so well verse with the Design Build Sell Scheme?”

Let me quote an example of a DBSS project. The “Premiere” in tampines are condo-like HDB property, but they are designed and build by private developers, but the rules are HDB. They prices about 2 years back then was only 300k-500k. Which are the prices of the HDB flats now. “Affordable” for that sense, yet much higher qualify for the same price. Being so, our quality of life actually increase.

“Here’s a simple question to you. Are you being force to choose this scheme? Anyway, it should not affect you right, as their design is so UGLY in your words.”

I hope my previous explanation clears your misunderstanding.

“HDB was never created for non-Singaporean to purchase to begin with nether was it created for profiteering. It is exactly the greed of some people who abuses the system that possibly contributed to provide reasoning of the HDB Housing Authorities to embark drastic measures to curb speculation.”

I thought you advocated ‘free market economy’? you are right, HDB was NOT created to profiteer when our good pioneers build up Singapore in the 60s and 70s. But later they found out that they can virtually ‘print money’ by selling ‘close to market’ rate. HDB btw actually book a loss in their accounts, the really money goes to SLA, the amount is a SECRET of couse. This is unlike HK which reveal the revenue for land sales as their surplus.

“If there is anything that I like them to be more transparent and accountable for is the Town Council who manages the SC fees. That I will find it more credible then what has been raised in this article or the suggestion of disclosure of the construction cost and using Malaysia pricing structure as a guideline to compare with HDB housing.”

I found that your arguments are based on ‘personal’ preference basis. E.g. if you like certain things to be transparent then it should be transparent, if you don’t not think so then it should not.

The gist of advocating for transparent cost structure is to hopefully bring down the price and improve the quality/efficiency, especially so in a monopolistic market. To remind you its our OWN money, not theirs. What if your financial planners tell you can you know the cost of your insurance and the units?

Just like SP services can raise their prices eternally and cover up with half-baked illogical reasons in the name of corporate SECRECY. You mean you have a choice of power supply like running your own generators?

I’ve first hand experience with the HDB officers in their in-competencies which are a waste of taxpayer’s money. Just can’t imagine how much money are wasted they with our hard earned money. There’s too much details to disclose my ‘experience’ here, if you need proof, I can provide you.

In short, for most of our people our standard of living (housing) are much lower then those e.g. in KL, Beijing, ShangHai. (comparing people of similar caliber). This is the FRIST WORLD standard that your govt tells you.

Every efforts should rightfully happen for a justification. Absolute Disclosure shouldn’t be taken as a de facto standard. Although i am unhappy with our somebody for some things they do, i must still agree that they are still doing a reasonable job to ensure fundamental needs are satisfied.

Please…. THINK in BREATH and DEPTH

I believe you are intelligent enough to know that “beauty is in the eyes of the beholder”. Every individual holds a different perspective and interpretation to things that are abstract.

Are you implying that your claim of “UGLY HDB Design” is the defacto description for the rest of the 80 odd percentile of population in Singapore who are now living in HDB or you meant to insult the choice of this group of people?

Incidentally, yes, I do live in a HDB and I am happy about it including the design. And by the way, living in HDB has no relation to wealth and wealth is not necessary material wealth. There are a good number of citizenry I knew who shared this definition of wealth but we do respect other people’s interpretation. Likewise in other abstract word such as “UGLY”. May be you are right, older people like us really lost touched with the young and smart Singaporean like you.

What you are advocating is protectionism or perhaps you are against a free market economy as far as private housing is concerned. Or may be you are just zealous over the people who can afford to buy them by the dozen. What’s makes you think it is purely for speculation? You talk about anti-speculation in other country; I am talking within the current Singapore system that you have to live with it. Senseless bickering is not going to change anything for you neither is throwing terminology nor knowing the cost of construction (how much truth is there in the numbers, can you verify?). So what good does it brings you if you are so well verse with the Design Build Sell Scheme?

Here’s a simple question to you. Are you being force to choose this scheme? Anyway, it should not affect you right, as their design is so UGLY in your words.

HDB was never created for non-Singaporean to purchase to begin with nether was it created for profiteering. It is exactly the greed of some people who abuses the system that possibly contributed to provide reasoning of the HDB Housing Authorities to embark drastic measures to curb speculation.

If there is anything that I like them to be more transparent and accountable for is the Town Council who manages the SC fees. That I will find it more credible then what has been raised in this article or the suggestion of disclosure of the construction cost and using Malaysia pricing structure as a guideline to compare with HDB housing.

You are a reasonable guy and I appreciate your well meaning.

I guess at the end of the day, the stick still counts a lot and sometimes it takes a bigger stick to negate the effect of a smaller stick even though very much as we would like to feel that good reasons shall prevail.

Unfortunate but true, sometimes we have a culture to talk more about tigers rather than a good system – a creature which symbolizes fear. Men’s greed for power. Certain cultures just have a self-reinforcing built-in mentality to learn the long and hard way or even stagnate or even regress , sometimes at the expense of the powerless group.

Thanks for your views and we shall end our discourse on this tread. Stay around to contribute.

Hope you can reply can counter argue intelligently.

33) justkaypoh on Your comment is awaiting moderation. October 16th, 2008 12.05 am.

I had replied you and even reproduce the entire reply (copy and paste) but it was put on moderation. Anyway, let me try it another time here.

17) justkaypoh on October 12th, 2008 1.12 am

“Just think about it if HDB is privatize (or rather let pte developers build HDB flat just like the DBSS scheme now) . The quality and the design will be many times better then the ugly HDB flats design. So if they charge somewhat higher then the HDB flat will be quite reasonable.”

What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore? Have you find out what’s the price variance between the two? Get real. Private developers are there to make money. If someday you become a private developer and price your “better quality” developed housing “somewhat higher” than the HDB pricing of the same square area, let me know. I will definitely invest in one.

“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”

Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?

“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”

This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics. This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?

25) Observer(SG-HK) on October 15th, 2008 12.35 pm

17) justkaypoh on October 12th, 2008 1.12 am

“Just think about it if HDB is privatize (or rather let pte developers build HDB flat just like the DBSS scheme now) . The quality and the design will be many times better then the ugly HDB flats design. So if they charge somewhat higher then the HDB flat will be quite reasonable.”

What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore? Have you find out what’s the price variance between the two? Get real. Private developers are there to make money. If someday you become a private developer and price your “better quality” developed housing “somewhat higher” than the HDB pricing of the same square area, let me know. I will definitely invest in one.

“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”

Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?

“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”

This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics. This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?

25) tiredsingaporean on October 14th, 2008 12.36 pm

What are you talking about man.

I am afraid you guess wrong. See post #25.

As the chinese expression: “If you pushed the back of the tiger against the wall” with no alternative route of escape, be warn, it may just leap and hit you back with uncontrolled vegence. By then, it is unstoppable until blood is drawn. Between survival and death, human do possess that invincible and invisible explosive force that one never know when it will be release with a hair trigger. So with this, I do concur with your last sentence (but not in SingLand context).

In conclusion, time is the best testament. In reality, no one knows when enough is enough. We human only have one life to live, the essence of living is how each one of us value its worthiness. Some can’t live without enormous wealth and greed, some will happily live without much as material wealth is nothing but a tiny grain of sand that will be easily blown away or dissipated when one reaches the end of his/her life span (of natural cause not including of unforsee natural disasater or man made disaster). No power exist forever just a matter of how long. May be another 20, 50, 100 years? Or it may be ended with natural disaster like global climate change, natural castetrophic event that no nation or men can save. If you are a fan of Nostradamus , you know what I mean.

“hypothethical scenarios may only happen in a movie. Don’t be to taken by it.”

Earthquakes and tsunamis do not come announced in advance.

“hypothethical scenarios may only happen in a movie. Don’t be to taken by it.”

If only it is those science-fictions which I am quite convinced may not happen in the near future. But not if it is human conflicts who are happening all the time, even now in a lot of countries.

I can comprehend where you are coming to on your pressure pipe analogy. Without a doubt if things persist as is now, may be the out-burst will happen (but in SingLand Context? I really doubted it).

I once jokingly mentioned to a group of closed friends here in Hong Kong on the discontent sentiments that is happening in Singapore over the past years and posted a hypothetical situation just to hear reactions from foreign voices. What is the possibility of someday SingLand will have the kind of demonstration that took place in July 1 2003 (the largest ever peaceful protest over Basic Laws enforcement in Hong Kong) but in a more explosive way. They responded with uncontrolled laughters.

I did mention before with a certain personality passed on, things might permanently changed for the better (or worse). But one thing for sure, there were be heated arguments and political tussle even within party lines. Econmoically, we must be prepared to braised for some heavy losses at the expenses of us ordinary tax payers. Chaotic situation may evolve as a daily ritual until a compromise can be reached. When the dust had settle down, it will be a brand new beginning for all to equally contest but this time in a gloabize stage as the backdrop. It is not such a bad thing afterall if it did ever happen. Obviously, all these hypothethical scenarios may only happen in a movie. Don’t be to taken by it.

I really do not know. Whoever can tell you for sure is probably God.

It may be from harmless peaceful ones to those extremely chaotic life-destroying ones with burning of properties and killing of lives. I really don’t know.

Learning from past history, I do know that bottled-up disatisfaction will always finally find an outlet, if not in the form of protests now, it could well be, in the extreme case, revolutions of the same chaotic scale like the one mentioned above if that right & unpredictable condition is triggered – and this will happen as a matter of time, perhaps within our lifetime or perhaps not.

No one is advocating a free-for-all anarchism but it must not be a case where one is given the impression that everything is hunky-dory here – to the extent that serious greviances are downplayed (or even made to sound as though they are unwarranted rantings) and there is ‘no sense of urgency’ to rectify whatever problem there may be.

* let me tell you a story of a high-pressure pipe. If increasing pressure keeps on building up in a pipe, it is going to explode from the weakest point where there could be a slight fissure. If all along there is a hole in the pipe, whatever pressure built up will just escape from the point in a smooth non threatening manner.

“What is “somewhat higher” in your dictionary versus the private developers? Really? The private developer’s housing are nicer in Singapore?”

I really depend on the market forces if anti-speculation are in place, they should not go so high (so truly reflect a better demand-supply market). Also with scheme like DBSS, HDB rules are already enforce in private like condos. Do you know what is DBSS?

Hmm, you don’t find the private property nicer then HDB? You can’t differentiate? Well then its better for you just to stay in ugly looking HDB flat even if you are rich. Well if they are not nicer when are the private properties prices higher than HDB flats? Then our ministers should also live in HDB flats.

Justkaypoh:“Since HDB is a govt stat board, they are obligated to be transparent, do you understand?”

“Really? I didn’t know that. I must be living in timbaktu. So Public Listed Companies also must be very transparent right? “

“Did you ask the sales person to disclose to you the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?”

Oh how’s its feels like living in timbaktu? Are the properties there nicer then sg?
Well can you tell the difference between a profit-centered listed company and a democratic accountable civic government? I’m quite surprise that you can’t see the BIG difference.

Can’t really blame you also, since maybe for all your like you are being brainwash by the corporate minded sg govt.

The govt should be civic centered to SERVE the people and not to SECRETLY profit big time. So what is the for the HDB to hide? Citizen had all the rights to know as we are owner of this country. This is not like a highly classified info ok?

Yes the major shareholders have the rights to know the costs of the products. Each citizen hold equal rights similar to a shareholder(there’s no major or minor shareholder).

the cost structure of the product that you last bought from a public listed company?

Justkaypoh:“You may think all if not HDB exist property will be more expensive then now. Well do you know that the current high property prices are due to speculation and rampant buying by foreigners? Have you heard of foreigners who by condos by the dozens?”

“This has no relation to the HDB issue this article sort to know. Did you know that the Japanese bought 60% of Hawaii back then as well? This is free market economics.”

Well maybe you are not quite informed in this aspect.

So? You mean that is good and healthy? Do you know that a lot of countries have good properties anti-speculation measures? They also have foreigners buying restriction.

“Why then HDB flats and landed forbids foreigners to buy? Why? Since you said must be free market economy.”

All you ever thought that Singapore is different from bigger countries as our land is very limited and can be “easily” manipulated e.g. the recently enbloc craze that sent our properties prices spirally up. Do you know that it’s the coordinated efforts by developers and overseas funds that drive them up at such speed?

Just like stock counters that have a small market caps are often targets for manipulation rather then stocks with bigger market caps. Why do you think that the stock exchanges have anti-manipulation rules? Do you also know that speculative property markets like HK had their markets crash so badly that people commit suicide and go bankrupt? How about the world property bubble now?

“This purchase pattern is not restrictive to Housing alone. I wonder then over the causeway when Singaporean were on a spending spree that JB attributed their rising cost of living to Singaporean and then what was the reaction?”

Ya, haven’t you hear that the JB people are complaining, but for this case, this thing actually brings up the JB economy as their people can profit from it by doing business.

For sg properties, only the very few rich Singaporeans profit from foreigners buying (esp. those who don’t even stay here, those who stay here at least have a good reason to let them buy). And these Singaporeans are those are have multiple investment properties.

“If protests are allowed in the street, what do you think ?”

This hypothetical scenario will take decades to materialize in Singland. Assuming it does happen, depending on the issues. See what is happening in Thailand. Reasonable protest? In that particular incident, I only said it disrupted the otherwise peaceful live of the innocents. It is difficult to draw the fine line what is considered reasonable when we let emotion rule over our senses. Nevertheless, if the situation you painted really exist, then I would said Singapore had reached maturity at least in the name of true democracy. Most importantly, by then complete freedom of speech and expression is liberated.

No argument over your reply. Given our situation, I do sense that it is the very lack of strong opposition which is taken as “given” to the expense of the ordinary innocent citizenry.

“I am dead against unfounded and uncalled for opposing views (that has suspicion of self interest) that may or will otherwise end up at the expense of the ordinary innocent citizenry.”

While this is true, it could also be a red-herring simply appealing to fear which is not uncommon in our case.

“There are plentiful of ordinary citizenry who hope to live a serene life that not necessary with enormous wealth.”

Definitely, there are such people as you mentioned. But so far, are we able to show our hands in a concerted manner to indicate some other shades of life that we perceive to equally pleasant.

The rough proportion can never be known if the platform enabling such indication is delibrately made to be absent.

Well, previously no protests allowed. Now, protests allowed in HLG and you see some taking place. If protests are allowed in the street, what do you think ?

Let me try to sum up my general sentiment. Don’t be mistaken, I am all for check and balance, transparency and accountability but I am dead against unfounded and uncalled for opposing views (that has suspicion of self interest) that may or will otherwise end up at the expense of the ordinary innocent citizenry.

It takes two to clap and things do not just happened. There is always cause and reason behind every event. Simply put, you reap what you sow. There are plentiful of ordinary citizenry who hope to live a serene life that not necessary with enormous wealth.

For the case you cited. If they truly felt they had been mislead (without an inch of self greed), then I think they should go all out to claim what was supposedly theirs to begin with. But at the end of the day, we know if it ended up as litigation, evidence and hard facts will rule over emotion. If this is the case, I like to see that none of them who got help legally are charge a single penny.