Update: In view of the comments posted here by readers, please allow me to clarify a few issues which readers have brought up. Please see below.
Andrew Loh / Deputy Editor
A couple with 4 children and an elderly mother appeals to the HDB for a concessionary loan to purchase a flat. The appeal process has lasted almost a year – with no success.
What happens if you are unable to service your HDB mortgage loans and are forced to sell your flat? Will you be able to apply for a new HDB loan to purchase a new one?
More importantly, is means-testing being quietly implemented by the HDB?
Mr and Mrs Yap (not their real names) are in such a situation. Having owed the HDB arrears of more than $25,000, including $4,000 in late payment charges, they were forced to sell their 4-room flat in Bukit Merah in September this year.
The couple had hoped that they would be able to successfully apply for a HDB concessionary loan and purchase a new flat after they had settled the arrears.
As it turned out, however, their loan application has been a frustrating affair and they do not understand why the HDB is refusing to grant them one which is sufficient enough for a new house.
The Online Citizen met up with Mrs Yap over coffee.
When the couple had their second child in 2002, Mrs Yap, 33 and who was working as an operations manager in a pub, quit her job in order to care for the infant. Her husband was then working in dispatch. Their 4-room flat in Bukit Merah then was home to six persons – including their two children and Mr Yap’s parents, who had moved in with them in 1999. (They later had two more children – in 2005 and 2008).
Their woes started in 2007, when they defaulted on the monthly mortgage loans. It eventually accumulated to $25,611 and they were forced to sell their flat in September this year (2008) in order to settle the arrears. But even before the completion of the sale, the couple had already started to apply to the HDB to grant them a loan to buy a resale 4-room flat.
Application rejected
In December last year, HDB rejected the application, saying that Mr Yap’s salary of $1,200 was not enough to service the loan which they would need to purchase a resale flat. HDB advised them to “use the CPF refund and cash proceeds from the sale of your current 4-room flat to buy a smaller flat, without taking a loan.”
“I can’t buy a smaller flat,” Mrs Yap told TOC. “Where will my children sleep? What about my mother-in-law?” More importantly, the couple feels that since this would be their second HDB loan and hence the last one they would be granted, they want to purchase a 4-room flat to live in for the long term.
Disappointed with HDB’s rejection, the couple approached their Member of Parliament, Mr Baey Yam Keng, who appealed to the HDB on their behalf. In his letter in May 2008, Mr Baey informed the HDB that Mr Yap’s income had recently increased to $1,450. He also noted that they are unable to obtain any loans from the banks as they had a record of owing some credit card debts.
Appeal
In its reply on the 6th of June, HDB again rejected the application, citing the couple’s difficulty to service the loan based on Mr Yap’s income. “I need a flat so that my mother-in-law can live with us. She is being abused by her husband. Also, she is not allowed to rent a flat either,” Mrs Yap told us. The HDB said her mother will have to either find someone to jointly it with or to pick a name from HDB’s rental flat waiting list and live with that person, a prospect which Mrs Yap frowns upon. “If she lives with us, she can help me look after my children and I can go to work to supplement the family’s income,” says Mrs Yap. She feels that even if she worked part-time, she would be able to add another $500 to $600 to her husband’s $1,450 salary and thus be able to help service the HDB loan.
In July, after Mr Baey made a second appeal on their behalf, the HDB finally relented and agreed to grant them a loan which is “100 per cent of the selling price or market, whichever is lower”, according to Mrs Yap. The HDB later offered them $67,000 to purchase a 4-room flat – provided the new flat was below $250,000. However, the loan amount was not enough for the couple to buy a 4-room flat in Teck Whye, which is one of the cheapest areas in Singapore, Mrs Yap told TOC. She said they are asking for a loan of “about $90,000 to $100,000” from the HDB.
“Our proceeds from the sale of our previous 4-room flat is $126,000, which is put back into our CPF,” she told TOC. The cash portion from the sale was $57,200. “But we only get $49,604 after deducting the $5,000 of deposit & appears to HDB & TC,” she explained.
HDB insisted that a loan of $67,000 would be enough for the new flat. But Mrs Yap disputes the figure. “Our CPF refund was $120,000 but $6,000 was credited into our special account,” she said. More was used to pay their S&C charges to the town council and their housing agent. They would also need to do some simple works on their new home – such as painting, re-wiring and pay the “cash over valuation” on the resale flat purchase.
“That means we can only buy a 3-room flat if we’re very lucky because the prices of flats keep increasing,” she said in her email reply to HDB. She checked the HDB website several times for the latest resale prices of 3-room flats in Teck Whye and they ranged from $201,000 to $230,000.
Frustration
After more than 6 months of appealing to the HDB, she feels frustrated as during the period, prices of flats have escalated and has made it harder for them to purchase a new home. Prices of 4-room flats in Teck Whye have risen to as high as $240,000 and $305,000 – figures which Mrs Yap took from the HDB website and included in her email to the HDB.
In September, after numerous appeals spanning almost one year, a glimmer of hope surfaced. HDB informed them that it is “reviewing [their] re-appeal for a higher HDB loan”. That glimmer turned to frustration again one week later when the HDB informed them that it is “unable to accede” to their request for a higher loan.
In her desperation, she fired off an email to the Prime Minister, Mr Lee Hsien Loong, last month. In it, she told the PM that “it is not that we do not work hard for our future [but even when we do] we can’t even secure a … home for our children.” She went on, “We’ve been writing in for a year, fighting for a loan to purchase a flat and not asking for [a free ride].”
On 25th September, having had enough of the frustration of not being able to secure the loan, she told the HDB to “cancel the approved loan of $67,000 for now”, as there’s no point for them to buy a 3-room flat. “I’ll still be unable to work as nobody can look after my children,” she said.
Mrs Yap is extremely disappointed that HDB would consider her husband’s salary too low to service a mortgage loan.
“[The} Government encouraged us to have more children. But after having more children, we can’t provide them a proper home, my husband can’t provide his mother a place to stay, because his salary was [considered] too low to service a HDB loan.”
Read Leong Sze Hian’s article, “HDB means-testing?”
—————–
Update: Andrew Loh’s comment on certain issues brought up by readers.
The Yaps are not asking for a free handout.
What they are asking for is to be given a loan (an additional $33,000 to the $67,000 which HDB has already offered) in order to buy a 4-room flat.
Why a 4-room flat?
In a word, space. The four kids which they have (the youngest is just two months old) will grow up and the couple’s intention is to have a flat big enough for them. It’s a long-term thing. Also, a 4-room will enable Mr Yap’s mother to live with them, which in turn will allow Mrs Yap to go out to work, which will enable her to supplement her husband’s income and help service the $100,000 loan.
Second and last loan.
HDB only allows Singaporeans to apply for two concessionary loans. As they have already received one such loan, this second loan will be their last from the HDB. Thus, they hope to secure a loan which will be enough to buy a 4-room so that they can live in it for the long term, without having to loan from the banks, which for the time being they cannot as they owe credit card bills.
Means-testing
The bigger issue here is why HDB is implementing, effectively, means-testing for public housing without any official announcement or statements from the National Development Minister? Are there many cases of people defaulting on their mortgage loans? Further, what are the criterias or salary ceilings for applying for loans to buy a 3-room, 4-room or 5-room flat? What are the cut-off points for these?
Why have 4 kids?
I think this is a personal issue which the family decides. Financial ability to provide for the children is of course important but not all couples put that as the main consideration. Some have religious beliefs (I’m not saying the Yaps do). But whatever it is, however many kids the couple has, the point is that they are not asking for a handout. Mrs Yap wants to go back to work so that she can help supplement her husband’s income in order to help service the loan and be able to purchase a 4-room flat in order to give her children better living conditions and also to provide security – and safety – for Mr Yap;s mother who’s been abused.
Living within one’s means
It is said by some that the couple should live within their means. While this would be generally encouraged, situations are not all the same. The difference here is that Mr and Mrs Yap are working hard to provide for their children. Mrs Yap wants to go out to work.
Providing public housing
HDB’s policy, inadvertently, is discouraging the average Singaporean from having more children, it would seem, which is contrary to what the Government is trying to do. HDB is supposed to be an agency or Government department which provides public housing at affordable rates for the average Singaporean. Has HDB lost sight of its original purpose?
Again, the biggest question is: Why is HDB in the business of means-testing and what are the criterias? Why no public announcements about this?
Perhaps the HDB should provide Singaporeans with the statistic of those who have defaulted on their loans, who are unable to purchase flats because of their income level and give us the reasons why.
In a word, transparency.
Why is Mr Yap’s $1,450 salary not enough to qualify for a sufficient loan? Should Mr Yap work a second job?
——–
I live in Jurong West Extension and there are lots of empty units available here. HDB flats are definitely cheaper here than anywhere else. The Yap family is in my prayers and I definitely want to meet them with a team of ordinary caring individuals. [not to evangelize but to show love, care and bring hope to their situation].
Prices of 4-room flats transacted between Jul 08 and Sep 08 (taken from hdb site):
Marsiling Dr $176,000.00
Marsiling Dr $178,000.00
Marsiling Dr $200,000.00
Marsiling Dr $205,000.00
Marsiling Dr $188,000.00
Woodlands St 11 $204,000.00
Woodlands St 13 $206,000.00
Woodlands St 41 $205,000.00
Woodlands St 82 $205,000.00
Woodlands St 32 $181,000.00
Woodlands St 32 $193,000.00
Woodlands St 41 $180,000.00
Yishun Ave 11 $199,000.00
Yishun Ave 6 $190,000.00
Yishun Ave 6 $168,000.00
Yishun Ave 7 $175,000.00
There are lots more…
Yup, supports the argument that the Yaps have narrowed their own options a little too much.
$168k for a 4rm flat in Yishun is not that unaffordable to the Yaps. $100+k in CPF + $6Xk loan offered by HDB now doesn’t look that unreasonable….
“84) isa on October 10th, 2008 5.16 pm
I know you guys want to sympathize with the victim and some will linked it to “oh..they have to lived in misery when our govt lived in luxury”.
But, this 2 are separate issues that need to be tackled separately.
If you linked the two.. there is no end. “Oh, Transport fare increased but the govt lived in luxury and drive cars and they will not be affected.”
In life, a lot of things are inter-related depending on where you stand and from what perspective you hold.
Of course, you want to separate the issues. Divide and attack. Easier for you and no mess just like what those big brothers always like. As you can see here, certain people just refuse to play by your parameter. You are right, there will always be no end to this kind of argument because we just see things differently.
If Mr. Yap is your brother, can you frankly let me know whether you will hold the same view.
Sometimes, the view of a poor pauper is as good and as valid as the view of some big hot shot. Just that the latter has more resources to scre* the former. The only way for the former to scre* back the latter is to unite in strength in order to create a big credible force.
Paying citizens also have the right to re-link the issues because they simply see it as one whole big problem where they feel that leaders have to set good example and not just preach. Which is more easy, preach or do ?
(#97) .. Yes, if he was my brother, I would advise him to downgrade. I will show him what financial prudence means.
Heck! I’m even living it. I can live in pte condo with full cash payment..
But I choose to live in my trusty HDB because I believed living in Pte condo does not enhance my life or will lead to a more fulfilling life.
I know the value of money and choose to use the money wisely and saved up for retirement.
UnreadMan, lim,
(I took the lastest – Sept transcation)
Yishun from $190,000 – $335,000
Woodlans from $193,000 – $325,000
Jurong West from $172,000 – $359,000
Teck Whye from $215,000 – $240,000
(#97) On your comments on issues are inter-related and we should see it as one big problem that leaders should practise what they preach.
Ok, here goes..
Supposed we linked the two issues,
Issue A – YAP cannot pay for 4rm but die die want to complain and gain sympathy for their predicament and not taking responsibility for their lack of financial prudence.
Issue B – Govt are paid obscene sum of $$ to live in luxury.
We now need to see… Are these two issues if these two issues are inter-dependent.
Let’s apply the test of causality.. that if Issue B was solved , would Issue A be solved?
Please tell me, would that happen? I think not. So, I would opined that the two issues have no causality effect and are not INTER-DEPENDENT but they could be inter-related if you really want to.
Ok, so now we die die want to link the issues together…
We FORCED the govt to accept lower pay…
Now we go back to mr Yap… he happily buys the 4rm flat …
Will he lived happily ever after?
Have he learnt to plan for his financial outcome?
If he have not learnt that.. I beg that he will have the same issue.
So, i have re-emphasize, the root cause is the financial planning and taking responsibility for one’s action.
Izzy,
:) It’s alright, I am not pissed off. I thought that was a good discussion.
isa,
Issue A – YAP cannot pay for 4rm but die die want to complain and gain sympathy for their predicament and not taking responsibility for their lack of financial prudence.
hmm.. I don’t think they’re asking for sympathy, they’re cancelled the loan, isn’t it?
I think this is one of those cases where few people will be sympathetic to.
While a roof over one’s head is an entitlement, a 4-room flat isn’t. If you are born into unfavourable conditions, you just have to bite the bullet temporarily while working towards a better future.
Our government may be unfeeling sometimes but this isn’t one of those instances. HDB did offer a $67k loan despite Yaps having a bad credit history. But Mrs Yap rejected it somewhat bitterly since they didn’t give her what she wanted.
UnreadMan,
Isn’t it better for them to cancel it? Since they don’t want a 3 room flat, maybe they’ve other plannings & work hard for their dreamt 4 room flat :D
Given that their flat has been sold in Sep 08, is it more important now to get a cheaper 4-room flat in Jurong West/Yishun/Woodlands so that their kids and abused mother can have a home ASAP
OR
is it more important to wait indefinitely for HDB give them a bigger loan to buy a more expensive flat in Teck Whye?
Izy,
I do hope they have a backup plan. It is stated that they sold their flat in Sep 08.
#103..
AYE AYE..
105) UnreadMan on October 10th, 2008 7.22 pm Given that their flat has been sold in Sep 08, is it more important now to get a cheaper 4-room flat in Jurong West/Yishun/Woodlands so that their kids and abused mother can have a home ASAP
OR
is it more important to wait indefinitely for HDB give them a bigger loan to buy a more expensive flat in Teck Whye?
———————————————————————————————
(I took the lastest – Sept transcation)
Yishun from $190,000 – $335,000 (avg $262,500)
Woodlans from $193,000 – $325,000 (avg $ 259,000)
Jurong West from $172,000 – $359,000 (avg $265,500)
Teck Whye from $215,000 – $240,000 (avg $227,000)
Teck Whye isn’t that expensive like you say but I think the $67,000 given is not enough for them to purchase at any of the area we mentioned above :(
“HDB must be affordable to all.”
No matter how expensive, it always affordable by government’s standard. If you can’t pay 30 years, you can pay 60 years, and your children can help PayAndPay. The question is why should we have to pay so much for HDB in the first place ? This is the fundamental and root question.
Affordable is the word that been misused by the government. You can afford anything as long as you can pay by installment, but whether you can service the installment is another thing. Even the cheapest HDB is no longer cheap.
The problem is worsened by the rising cost and inflation with thank to PayAndPay scheme of the Leegime.
Daniel, I agree with you the root cause of the issues is that the HDB flats are OVERPRICED! We paid too much for poor quality squeezy flats. Its only cost about 30-60k to build a flat.
in the 70s,80s,90s most will take less then 20 yrs with single income to fully pay up the load. It is only when HDB overcharge that cause families like the Yaps to meet with such problems.
Now Isa, what more can you say about this?
110) Izzy,
$110K (CPF) + $67 (HDB Loan) + $49K (Bank balance) = $226K
Not enough for Teck Whye but certainly enough for other areas.
Dear gemami, just for your information, I responded to your #48 post which contain no racist remarks or personal attacks, but somehow it was censored. Strange but again in today’s trying times, I think people just didn’t want respect freedom of expression, even a so-call indpendent coummunity blog space. How pathethic.
115) justkaypoh on October 11th, 2008 2.04 am
I think you are living in the woods. You think the HDB pricing is unfair, poorly structured and over-price? You have a choice not to live in it. No one forces you to live in it or live in one. You can always choose to live in a Condo.
Please, don’t just blindly oppose good governance for the sake of opposing. Think with senses and reasons. Don’t just jump on the wagon. It is not that the Yap cannot afford a roof over their head, it is purely they want it their way and no other way even when they clearly cannot fulfill the financial side of things. I will say let them eat their cake. Cruel, heartless and unsympathetic, call it whatever one’s wished, it is a fact of life. There are much worse off people I can find to help and sympathize.
In my opinion, this article should not even be published. I am suspecting how much value is there discussing a none issue or was there a hidden agenda. You go figure.
You too? Other than the one time when you were overly sarcastic toward my post,
I have always the impression that you are a wise and credible man whose comments I had never dismissed out of hand. Well it’s their turf and their prerogative.
Podefactor, yes indeed. I am challenging them to openly response why the moderation and guess what, that message also got put under moderation. I guess this one too. Don’t go telling everyone how bad and bias the MSM and the Governing policy where I now find them just a waste of my precious time. So much for standing up for freedom of speech. Just appauling.
#117
probably because they think you cannot figure out whether you belong to SG or HK; yes? . . . . . anyway, blog discussions are still better than msm – anytime . . .
116) UnreadMan on October 11th, 2008 4.09 am 110) Izzy,
$110K (CPF) + $67 (HDB Loan) + $49K (Bank balance) = $226K
Not enough for Teck Whye but certainly enough for other areas.
——————————————————————————–
I think it’s not right on your calculation, you should take the lastest transcation price & not from 3 months ago.
JMHO
121) gemami on October 11th, 2008 5.22 pm
Good humor. No, I am beginning to feel tire and sick of all this mercenary movement (if I may term it). Somehow, I felt there is a hidden agenda (in particular this article, that facts provide are in questions ~ parents= father +mother? where do they live before they move, do tthey own a hdb as well, what’s the relationship between Mr. Yap and his parents (father so to speak)…etc can Mr. Yap reconcile with his father assuming he own a hdb to sell it off to help them combine the money to opt for a 4 room so every body can live under the same roof…etc). All these questions that I wished to high-light to you have been lost in transist or was it deemed racist comment that warranted a censorship? Or what is it?
I have been commenting only months ago and revisited quite a few of the articles and its championing content. Apart from the Human Rights compaign week, the rest to me jare ust ranting issues and lop-sided (no more better than MSM).
As you can tell, I will play devil’s advocate from now even though I dislike the many policies of the current governing party. There is a saying, core value changes when the going is ever north way. I guess this site is beginning to look like one.
I am a person that believes in fundamental value and hold my principle of believes and am also a stancthed and strong advocate of freedom of speech and freddom of expression. Any censorship to me defeats the principle foundation of the freddom rules. I can live with any policies the current governing party throw at us, I cannot reconcile only on true freedom of speech and expression. That to me is every human being fundamental rights.
In this aspect, I would thought any kind of views should be respected in its face value and let others to make judgment on the credibility. Ya, nobody likes to hear racist remarks or engaged in personal assault in internet exchange, but if you are to strongly believe in freddom of speech and expression, you cannot avoid differing views. I supposed readers and posters are matured enough to differentiate and made their own conclusion, otherwise, we only prove the governing party right, Singaporean by and large are not matured and gracious enough to weather criticism and inadequate in making their own decision.
If you read on many of the comments in other articles, you will realize what I am implying. Sad as it is, but it is a fact of life. Reality can be ugly and we are not the only one to face it. All my life I have traveled and live in various countries for a significant period of time, long enough to understand a little bit of the local culture and whenever I made the comparison, Singaporean by and large is at the bottom line of things in terms of society graciousness, tolerance, community and citizenry bonding. Worse off if you talk about common ethiquette.
122) Observer(SG-HK) on October 11th, 2008 5.54 pm
fully agree with you. i believe its the reason why we are here in the first place.
unfortunately, we have been ‘cultivated’ and ‘programmed’ in our growing up years and somehow subconciously we tend to lean toward the practices that we have live through in our daily lives. what i mean is that we do sometimes subconciously do the same thing we are fighting to change because of the way we have been programmed.
change will take time. we need to be patient and not to give up so easily . . . else . . . we would be the sort of ‘freedom fighters’ that give up at the first sign of trouble.
give these people a chance to learn from mistakes and – hopefully – things will be presented and shared as they are from now on. we must be optimistic if not we will return to the msm way.
#123 & 124
AYE AYE
Once passed our twenties, changes are unlikely, for mentality and values were cemented during our formative years. Think about the dastardly deeds of highly educated characters holding master degrees and doctorates that we’ve come to know through our own eyes, media reports, hearsay or otherwise, do you believe they pick up those values or the lack of it during the period of advance learning? If we fail to protect our young from indoctrination by the insidious, then Banzai Cliff will be the ultimate fate of this country.
Observer, I don’t think you are alone when comment is not appearing. Most likely the spam system they used is the culprit. Maybe they using the spam system design by the ruling party ?
Look like we should start praising the government from now on, haha
“#122) we only prove the governing party right, Singaporean by and large are not matured and gracious enough to weather criticism and inadequate in making their own decision.”
I am quite surprised that you are making this statement and giving them due credit for the suggestion. I would say “pot calling the kettle black” or even “pot calling the cotton black”.
After all these 43 years and to use an extreme example purely for illustration, it is quite sad that the inventor even has the cheek in telling the robot off to act more like a human.
We are not robots in the strict sense but “gemami” does have a point on ” ‘cultivated’ and ‘programmed’ as in humans and robots respectively.
124) gemami on October 11th, 2008 7.00 pm
“unfortunately, we have been ‘cultivated’ and ‘programmed’ in our growing up years and somehow subconciously we tend to lean toward the practices that we have live through in our daily lives. ”
To an extend, our parents and surrounding relatives (at least speaking in my generation where community Camaraderie is imminent as we all live in very close proximity and people are less calculative), did play an important part in our bringing up (overly protective and/or being coerce to believe submissive is the right behavior to uphold “Refined Confucious Teachings ~ Singapore style”.
In the later years, I think the lack of exposure or the opportunity to get further exposure (sort of live outside the cocoon). All these contributed to the current state of mentality and mindset that I never failed to spot from Singaporeans touring Hong Kong, United States, Thailand, Japan…etc. I even find myself at odds when I do my home tour. It is a sad scene to see. There was a glimmer of hope when I learned of the NTU protest and indeed they should be encouraged to speak their mind more often.
127) Daniel on October 11th, 2008 9.45 pm
I sure wished TOC can address this. I dislike making assumption when factual information can be made available. I fully understand they are on part time basis and is trying to do a community service. To me (may be it is that occupational disease), I cannot tolerate mediocre service. This is my job requirement as well as a business consultant. So I always believe that if you want to provide service work, do your best. It is okay to make mistakes but learned from mistakes and gives your best effort to avoid recurrence. Whether it is free service or lip service, you have got to give it your best.
Praising people is a walk in the park. I rather speak my mind and be honest with my thoughts even if sometime it will get me into trouble. At least , I feel good inside and will stand by what I say with supporting reasoning. Whether one choose to believe or not, you can’t control people’s mindset.
I must say this, I once was very very anti-government (influenced?), then, as I aged and get more exposure and understand life better (at least spiritually I hope), the policies deployed then was necessary under those circumstances. I am not sure of the younger ministers now, I don’t know them and have no clue what they are trying to do for Singapore. All I heard and witness is they are enjoying over-sized packages (even bigger countries Prime Ministership or Presidents cannot match). Do I feel good over it, a resounding no. But then, if they are able to make common Singaporean’s life better, so be it.
Do I see improvement in Singapore over the decades? Obviously yes, but can be better. I supposed the excuse of not opening up more has very much to do with what I had concluded in my earlier post #123.
Anyway, my life will not miss a thing even not having to regularly visit this site again. In any case, I will see changes within Singapore (gradually) and may be 10 years from now, my wish of total “freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression” will come true albeit I may finally decided to throw in the tower and migrate. If I do, I will be happy for the Citizenry of Singapore.
131) Observer(SG-HK) on October 11th, 2008 10.42 pm
para 3, my sentiments exactly.
and do you now see the parallel with mr yap’s situation.
it is the programming of the human digits over at hdb that could not find it in them to help poor old mr yap and his family, in other words, the heart is missing – as we would expect from following any sort of programmed system.
look around you today and the arguement that the yaps ought ‘to have known better with poor planning etc” does not hold water – at least for me.
is there any certainty what lies ahead even if you have made the best protective plan against and adversities? no; we may have a 20yr plan but things unforseen could happen along the way and then what? we reach out for help and get accused that it is our own damn fault for not looking ahead and plan properly.
i’m sure the yaps had planned for a ‘live happily ever after’ kind of life – but things change – they always do – and even after having sold their first flat, they did not expect to run into problem – least of all with hdb. yes, on hindsight, they now realised it is a mistake to assume hdb would help them out. it is therefore necessary for them to now look more closely at what is best for their future and to try to get the best arrangement – right here, right now – this is why the 4-room flat.
someone quesioned – why 4, why not 5 room? good question. it tells us that the yaps are being reasonable and hdb would do well to read into such things. they ought to, with the thousands of similar cases each year. no; programming is the way, it’s the system adopted.
“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter,” Martin Luther King Jr