I sympathise with this family in the situation they are in… big family, and no place to stay. But look at their household income, why did they have 4 kids in the first place and put themselves in more financial burden and even accumulate credit card woes.? A $1,500 salary is not a consideration to have 4 kids…!

You can’t trust our gahmen to be sympathatic to you.. They will not…..

Just for the record, I have my fair share of arguments with HDB too…

Did Ngiam Tong Dow help them or not ?

@ 1)sam
You can’t trust our gahmen to be sympathatic to you.. They will not…..

Sad but TRUE….sigh

I totally agrees with Sam’s point. I find it strange that a lot of so called needy families had more than 1 child. If you are so tight on your budget, should you consider only having one or no children at all? Moreever, you also need to take care of elderly parents. You should be able to provide well for your parents 1st before consider having any children. Isn’t this common sense? Not that we want to discrimiate, maybe the government should set some ground rules for a person or a couple to have a combine/income of at least SGD4500 inorder to give birth to the 1st child? This amount can be adjusted using the inflation as a guideline.

First and foremost, everyone must cut his clothe according to his cloth. Personal finance is one’s own responsibility. You can’t overspend without thinking and preparing how to pay for it, and expect to be bailed out later. If you can’t afford to buy now, rent. Meantime, save until you have accumulated enough money to pay for the equity portion. Also upgrade yourself and work hard so that you have sufficient monthly income for living expenses as well paying loan instalments. If HDB or any lender refuses you a loan if you fail means testing or in other words, ability to service loan, it may be kinder to keep you from harm’s way. That’s the order of things how one should move on and up in life. By the way, when you purchase a HDB flat you are in actual fact only renting it long term as you “own” it just for the lease period.

Unfortunately, the “more good years” propaganda have lured many people into complaceny and go out and buy a flat, a car, holidays etc. mindlessly, at times.
The govt has awakened to the hard facts of life that not everyone can afford to buy all these although that have helped to propagate success in their housing and economic programs. I believe flat ownership is getting out of reach for more and more people whose income growth is lagging increasingly behind inflation and market valuations. I think HDB should rethink its housing policy for the future and increase its portion of rental flats for up to 3-bedroom flats at fixed rentals protected for say 5-10 years periods, perhaps even with an option to buy. HDB may not make as much money out of this as compared to selling flats, but it will surely help to provide essential housing needs of the lower income group at costs they can afford without being burdened by unmanageable mortgage debt. When these people prosper out of poverty, they can then move on to buying.

What is happening to Singapore?

Have the people working for Govt agencies lost their compassion or lost their ability to think? Is every case they handled just a number or a statistic to these heartless civil servant?

I was reading another article in States Times, not really related, but just adds to my frustration.
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Sport/Story/STIStory_287633.html
Fujian native, Zheng Qingjin was re-employed by SBA for the same position after he was convicted for corruption in that position. The reason being he is the best man for the job.
So will the day come when our PM, Finance, Health or Transport minister get to keep their post after they were found to be corrupted, just because they are the best man for the job?

Not that I am unsympathetic but this family is hardly down and out. The family has a healthy balance in the bank/CPF, and nobody is sick. There are many families worse than them.

Instead of wasting time and effort insisting that they should have a 4-room flat, they should focus on how to increase their income. Bad times are only temporary.

Speaking the point of view from someone who had been through worse times.

Don’t blame the HDB, blame yourself, HDB is not a charitable organisation.

simple (#5):

i agree with your above point of subsidizing rental for the lower income families so that they can affordable housing. i’m not sure of hdb policy, but i think they do have cheap 1-room studio flat for rental to lower income individual/families, but applicants must be over 40 years old (can someone verify this?).

how about lower income big families? Are there help for them?

6) gtiong

So despite all the major hiccups…..perhaps YELLOW is the best man for the job.
Phew! Luckily we have the BEST health minister

This family should ask for a rental flat, and in the mean time build up their savings, before wanting to purchase a bigger flat.

A 2-room rental flat would help them to cut down on expenses. There is nothing wrong with 4 children sleeping in the hall of an HDB flat…… or for that matter, 4 adults. I used to do that.

The most important lesson they should learn is delayed gratification.

For the price of local cars, one can easily get a bmw overseas in australia.
For the price of a simple leased flat, one can easily get a huge freehold bungalow in australia, a 1st world.

Longkang or room with a view?

I find some of the comments appalling. The whole “wagging your finger” at them saying “Awwww…..why you have so many chewren? Your own fault what” smacks of what we used to go through in PRIMARY SCHOOL.

Grow up. It is simply not productive to say, your own fault, too bad. These are people’s lives we’re talking about. Yes, some people are worse off. Yes, having 4 kids wasn’t the most pragmatic thing to do on a low income. But now since we are in this situation, WHAT CAN BE DONE? We’re too pragmatic that we don’t have any compassion.

And it is symptomatic of worse problems in our system where our government institutions, such as HDB, cannot see outside their programmed commands and help them. Let the mother stay with them, she’s being beaten, that is certainly a reason to bend the rules a little. HDB isn’t a charitable organisation, but it is supposed to provide PUBLIC HOUSING. And suggestions that it is “ok” for children to sleep in the hall of an HDB flat…no, it is not ok.

We pretend we’re a developed country, but in many ways we still have the mentality of people who don’t deserve better. We do. This is supposed to be a 1st world country. Our ministers get paid exorbitant salaries because we’re supposed to live in such an island paradise. Let’s expect and demand things that we should get in such a country.

We can continue to debate whether Mr Yap is deserving of any help from HDB but the fact of the matter is that his situation is real. We can talk about common sense or cutting your clothes according to the cloth etc. but please, may I ask, would you stand at the poolside and watch a friend struggling to stay afloat and trying his best not to drown? Would you not jump in and save him? My. my! What have we become? We stand by the poolside and comment that he should have known better, diving into the pool knowing full well that he can hardly swim!
I can still hear these words reverberating in my ears; “More Good Years!” . . . “The next lap”! I can still see images of the advertisement where a runner stopped to hold the hand of one who has fallen. Have we forgotten? This was the government’s call for those who are far ahead to stop and help those lagging behind. HDB would do well by leading the way in this situation.

dear loop, please do not give ideas like government should have ground rules on couples having their first child. It is not the government’s business to meddle in such matters. We are already experiencing human rights and privacy violations here in every other form.

lips and gemami, this is about responsibility… being responsible for your own actions and conclude your own family and financial planning. we know its not constructive to chide this family for their past actions that led to this outcome today, but dun they know, HDB or the gahmen will be the last to help them?

we know the family’s plight is genuine, but what happened now is not a result of just HDB’s inaction. Point is, this family’s plight is not all downright depressed. they turned down a loan and to get a 3rm flat.. They are not willing to ride out this rough days and apply a bigger flat few years time when times and their salary are better… I have been to some rough times myself. When I could not get help from HDB, I took it all in stride and endured 2 years of hardship.

sam, surely you would agree with me that ‘responsibility’ would sometimes take a back seat when fleeting emotions come into play. there are many other reasons (like one’s religious belief) beyond our comprehension why some families are bigger than we expect them to be. if every couple is able to be so level-headed and allow reasonings to dictate every aspects of their lives, then we won’t be discussing this at all because every one of us would be so much in control of ourselves, our emotions, our finances, our friendships etc. why; we might even be living heaven on earth – because we would be angels.

the real world is not like this. we will always have people who make bad decisions, people compelled to take certain decisions, people who make calculated decisions etc. but whichever group we fall into, we WILL run into trouble sometime or other. do we then say, well, you belong to the smart group so we will help you?

so be glad that you have been brought up well and your parents must have inculcated good power of reasonings during your growing up years. unfortunately, not everyone is as fortunate as you. for this group of people, we need people who care, someone who has a heart to help them out – wholeheartedly.

I have been into real bad times too for 4 years. . . to the extreme of only surviving on instand noodles, but what can we do? HDB chasing for arrears and worst still Town council issue court orders just for some 2K arrears and nearly land myself into jail. Luckily, with help from a close friend who rushed all the way to court just to settle that extra $400 court fine before I can be release. They just don’t bother to hear about your explanation, the judge only need to know if you agree or not to the offence committed. Shockingly, there are more than 50+ offenders in the same court just on that same day, I wonder how many ppl are committed in that year alone? It is amazing how a citizen can be easily turn into a criminal when his family is already facing so much financial difficulties to pay up their government arrears. So much talks of those sweet good years from the garment. See what happen now to the global financial crisis? there will be much more of these “automatically become criminal” cases to come. Sad but all these are the real things happening in real lives of many singaporean these days.

Look like most of the solutions here follow MIW’s pattern.

ERP increase => don’t drive car, use public transport
PUblic transport increase => travel less,
Electricity hike => Use less electricity
GST hike => Buy less thing
Bread, rice expensive => Eat less bread, rice, NO need for branded goods
Money not enough => Earn more money lah…

Surely you could find more

Answer that insult our common sense…
No wonder our world-class gahmen are worth millions because they are our role model !

I find some the negative comments about number of children, income levels and family aspirations from some of the writers here appalling immature, completely heartless and symtomatic of a sick society among these group of Singaporeans. Nobody wants to be in the predicament of the Yap family and increasingly, we will see many more families like this with the looming global recession from all racial and socio-economic groups. Who knows, these very same people who made these same very negative comments would respond very differently if they had a major chunk of their assets disappear overnight, being summarily laid off, have their HDB home re-possessed and offered very low starting salaries which is becoming a new norm here. I have met many such people whose pride have been crushingly destroyed because of economic circumstances and have had an extreme makeover in their life values, outlook and responses. Psalms 121 ultimately says . . . . Where does my help come from?

Proverbs 19:17 He who is kind to the poor lends to the LORD,and God will pay back what he has given.

Micah 6:8 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Ezekial 34:1 The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds . . . . who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered . . . . and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD – This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock . . . .

I truly can sympathise with the family as I have been there before after my business folded up and bills just added on besides not being able to pay for the arrears of my HDB flat. Luckily I was able to pull through…..without any help from the government etc etc. At one stage i also wanted to get some help from CDC but the process is so complicated and long to apply for just $100 plus that I gave up. Forget about relying on the MP or authorities, many of them only lip service. You think they say will review your case, nice to hear only lah but actual fact they already made up their mind not to loan the family and only say that to get them off their back. My advice is to wake up and rely on yourself.

I agree with some that the Yaps need to learn financial responsibility. There is already indications of their willingness to do this by Mrs Yap’s offer to take up part-time work to supplement the family income. However, the first and foremost is to provide the family with a roof over their head, especially when there are 4 children involved. Once the basic human needs are met, then the family can learn financial prudence. HDB, as a provider of public housing, should bear the responsibility for this. Maybe HDB does not have to give them another concessionary loan given the husband’s low income. But how about providing them a decent 4-room flat for the family to rent?? Of course HDB will say that there is no 4-room rental flat under their scheme. The question then is why not??? Aren’t they supposed to provide housing to every needy Singaporeans? do they only help those with small families??

22) watthefish on October 9th, 2008 2.45 pm

You are very frank with your situation.

Some people think that just because you are facing some financial problems, it must be due to some of your stupid calculation and decision. No offence intended but just to illustrate.

As everyone can see, even big big troubled banks (which used to be in a much much more privileged position to really make big money) now in US, Europe and Asia need BIG help from their garments and indirectly all this is at the taxpapers expense.

How about good hard working workers who suddenly lose their jobs through no fault of theirs and having commitments which were made donkey years ago to meet.

I find that some of the comments about the Yap family is not too fair. In the first place they do not ask for your sympathy. We come to know of their predicament through this article written by Andrew.

They have their reasons for wanting to buy a 4-room flat instead of a 3-room flat. I think they are being pragmatic in their choice. Shifting from one locality to another can be cumbersome and cause alot of problems in terms schools for children and having to start all over again in a new environment.

The Yap family is not asking the HDB to give them special treatment. The HDB has agreed to grant them a loan of $67,000 but they are appealing for another 20 to 30 thousand dollars to buy their dreamed flat.

Let us not be too quick to jump on the bandwagon and pouring cold water at them. Every family has its own problem and if we cannot offer any help or solution don’t condemn them.

Eh.. Can you blame the govt? No.

In this case, it shows clearly the result of lack of financial prudence and planning in the part of the Yaps.

1) They could have bought a 3 room but they choose to buy a 4 room.
2) Since they bought the 4 room, they should have set aside money for rainy days to cover the installment.. It seems they did not.
3) To further add to the woes, the WIFE quit her job to care for the children? If wife wanted to quit, they should have plan ahead and see whether they have enough for rainy days.

So, in the end, it is a case of lack of financial prudence and planning.
All the subsequent incidents of approaching govt would not have happened. Those are the effects.. The cause is clear for us to see.

In Chinese Sinseh wisdom.. “Treat the illness at its root”.

You bailed out the couple now.. they are still not financiall prudent, they will need another bailout.. It is what is happening in US.

I really do not understand the Yap family cannot pay up on the first 4 room flat and want to sell first 4 room flat to make a profit and to settle the outstanding arrears. Now they want to buy another 4 room flat again? I think HDB have already checked on their credit ability and realise they cannot survive on one person’s pay. I wonder why the Yap family do not think of asking for a 2 bedroom rental flat. Our family of 7 have lives into a one bedroom flat for 15 years until we are able to buy our own small HDB flat and keep it till now. I have also come that far.

HDB need to use the taxpaers’ money more prudently.. only those who really and genuinely deserve help should get it…… its a grey area whether the Yap family deserve it or not… but i feel, the Yap family can do more to help themselves and wait out the rough times now,… get a 3rm flat for shelter now, rather than having no shelter at all.

If i can only afford a Toyota Altis, I should not go and buy a BMW 3 series.
If I can only pay credit card bills of $100 every month, I do not incur credit card bills of $200.
If I can only afford to feed a family of 3, me and spouse will not give birth to more than 1 kid.

If all else fail, should I go to my MP for help? This is clear cut case. the govt is not obligated to help the family. you only wear a big hat if you got a big head.

if the HDB grant them a loan to buy a 4rm now, and they run into difficulties later due to heavy financial commitments, then how.? HDB use taxpay money to help them again.?? Come on, they throw back HDB’s approved loan…..
Stay in cramped 3rm HDB is no joy, but you wont die. Let the granny take care of the kids, both the parents can work to settle their financial woes, isn’t this better.??????

Does the new baby package come with housing aid?

Hi Andrrew, I think you really need to advise the Yap to consider for their kids. With his current income and 6 (4 kids +wife +mother) mouths to feed excluding himself, even with a 3 room flat, it is hardship givien the current pricing level for all sorts consumables and other expenses.

Face saving and Dignity is important as I figured that is why the Yap insistence of wanting to purchase a 4 room flat even his credit rating is in doubt. If the figures you provided in your article is right, they are short of some 20~30K after taking in the approved HDB loan to purchase a 4-room, have they approached their family members, relatives or closed friends if they believe they can finance the loan payment as an alternative avenue? Surely, HDB is not their only route if they are so adamant about their needs.

This is not being unsympathetic to their situation. I beleive many of us had gone through this stage before (or worse) and be pragmatic about things. In this case, I do not think the blame should be put to HDB. You guys think Singapore housing system is bad, try Hong Kong style. There are no shortage of cases worse off than Yap over here and yet they make do with what they can to make ends meet.

However disagreement I had with many of the policies in Singapore, as far as hosuing policies is concerned, they are much better (albeit can be improved further) compared to neigbouring countries. Someone commented about housing pricing system in Malaysia comparing it to Singapore, sorry mate, that is Apple & Orange comparison. Singapore is only a small little red dot, similar size to land scacre Hong Kong. In terms of public housing, they are miles apart.

i hope i do not run into any of mr yap’s problems and that the decisions i made will see me to my grave because i now know that i am already being judged by my fellow Singaporeans for not being pragmatic and prudent. i cannot believe there are so many heartless people in this country i call home.
“let the right hand help without the left hand knowing”.

maybe there should be a parent bonus. each parent to get $2500 for 1st child and $1000 for every addition. while we are at this, maybe there can be a minimum salary for every working Singaporean, say $4000? considering where inflation is heading these days. i think this is a good formula for a nation of people without hearts.

hi gemami.. you may wish to start a donation for the Yap’s family, or loan them 20k to 30k, since you think those who agree with HDB are ‘heartless’.

show the rest of us, you got ‘heart’. there is no need to call people who disagree with you ‘heartless’. tink with your brain, not with your emotions.

There are big families living in one, two and three room HDB Flats.

The Yap Family can compromised to have a roof over their heads now and work towards their ideal lodge later.

Reading this Article, I feel the HDB, MP and PM have all put in some efforts.

patriot

Dear gemami, I believe a good majority of us who look into this case based on the information disclosed in the article are not unsympathetic to the Yap. However, one needs to look into the cause to determine the appropriate action (i.e. to lend your support call).

Nobody is being judgmental here. May be we did not exercise diplomatic tact in speaking the truth on what we think can be done or should be done. In retrospects, it is obvious that the Yap are living way above their means. That is history and cannot be undone. So , let’s look at their current condition and give appropriate advice to help them to ride through their predicament (if it is even one).

If the HDB and MP they sort help from had done nothing to help, that I would 100% agree with you that we are all heartless (those who give the thumbs down) to Yap’s plead. The contrary is true. The HDB and MP the Yap sort help from had put in effort and even sound advice to them (weighing in on his current financial standings). It does not need a financial planner to do the math. I think we are more concerned about the well being of the kids than the husband and wife.

I strongly believed the majority of readers and posters here are sensible people. Yes, hearing the truth sometime can be very ugly and hard to accept. This only proved that we are not blind fatih followers and anti-government at all cost.

Dear TOC,

This article helps to shed more light on the strict standards HDB set and affirms that SUB PRIME(Poor Quality Housing Loans) will never happened in Singapore.

I think HDB is wrong to have drag the issue for over a year. I do find this family asking too much. There are people with 6 or 7 family members cramping in a 3 room flat. They too face a lot of money issues and space constraints. If everyone starts to ask for 4 room flat just because you have a big family and without sufficient income to support the loan, it is grossly unfair to the rest. Is tax payer paying other tax payers to be more comfortable? At least a $67000 loan from HDB is more than enough for them to get a 3 rm HDB. Sometimes, family too have to tighten their own belt and have financial discipline. Having more kids is fine, but do you have the capacity to provide them a better life? Or do you want the gahmen to raise your kids? Who is paying these bills? The tax payers? There are better ways to help needy people and helping them get a 4 room flat which they cant afford to service is not the right way. They end of worse with more debt. I believe HDB did the right thing. Or do we want a sub prime in Singapore?

FG

I agree with Observer #31 in that there are alternatives.

As much as home ownership should be an entitlement, it should be recognised that there is a cost. If one cannot afford it, then its unaffordable.

As much as we can rant about HDB’s inability to meet its mission on affordability, we must also recognise people’s ability to pay.

Considering house prices now and the impending downward trend, it would be ill-advised to advise anyone to buy now. I’d call it “chek arc” in hokkien.

Don’t forget, the US sub-prime crisis is precisely a result of providing loans to people who obviously can’t afford it. Ultimately, it is the citizens who foot the bill.

I would have tot renting a flat should be an option.

The HDB offers rent and purchase scheme for 3 room flat (normally 1-2 rooms).

http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10202p.nsf/WPDis/Renting%20A%20Flat%20Directly%20From%20HDBPolicies%20-%20Rent%20and%20Purchase%20Scheme?OpenDocument&SubMenu=Policies

Rental is only 30% of market rent. Rather than paying HDB $2,600 a year in interest on a $100k loan, the non-use of the CPF can allow Mr Yap to earn interest on his CPF (which can be used later to buy a flat) whilst allowing a place to stay at minimal rents.

At <$2k salary, Mr Yap qualifies for this scheme. It definitely beats buying resale now.

To ensure survival of Yap’s family, Yap just have to do anything they can and even if it means discomfort staying in a small home for the time being. No one knows how long this recession is going to last, and I’m sure Yap is not alone.

All this recession in nature always have 7 years cycle. Last in 2001, now in 2008. This time, things will get worse before it gets better (except for those gahmen who shamelessly going for another round of salary hike). So Yap have to bite the bullets and do whatever to ensure family survival.

First of all, I truly sympathize with the Yaps, but then again words without action means nothing. All I can offer is words, cos that’s all I can afford to offer. I fear losing my house too in view of the current economic crisis.

But there seems to be a good samaritan here who quoted quite a fair bit of scriptures. Perhaps that good samaritan, who signed off as a Pastor, could call Andrew and offer some help from his organization to help out the Yaps with a $100,000 loan? Surely some sort of repayment schedules could be worked out?

And Andrew, please, if indeed that person calls up with an offer to help, please email me his contact so I can see him with one other friend’s application for a $70,000 loan so he can save his flat in Pasir Ris too.

Quite a few valid points have been brought up. It’s sheer irresponsibility to have 4 kids when their income shows that even one could be a strain. And don’t just go blaming everyone else for their predicament. It has always been that we are to have more children ‘when we can afford it’. It’s sheer stupidity just to follow the call of the government to have more children, blindly. If they love the children so much, then the sufferings the little ones are going through now is cruelty of the highest degree. The children never asked to be born into a circumstances like those they are in now. If they can’t cope, they should be fostered out.

When any organization exercises prudence in their assessment of credit worthiness, there will always be one unhappy side. And is exercising prudence a fault of the system? Or should HDB adopt a loose policy of granting everybody with the Yap’s problem a loan just because they ask for one? We don’t need a sub-prime problem right in our very own door steps. Look at what has happened in the USA.

I am never in agreement with many of the government’s policies. I am 50. I have yet to vote for them. And I am unlikely to do so in the next election. But simply whacking them for everything under the sun is also not being fair.

I have the feeling that the 4 children is a result of cashing in on the baby bonus, probably an unintended situation created by the pro-creation policy. What you guys think ?

We cant blame the hdb nor goverment, Just as we cant blame the “YAP” for not hanging out flag on national day….. or a little more blunt …even betray singapore someday… cos’this is exactly what our Country culture ……since ,some of the writer mention “PRAMATIC”….
no offence(just follow what you guys say)hahahaha…

The People’s cooperation in accepting all kinds of hikes helped the current transport operators profit.

The People’s cooperation in accepting the price of HDBs helped HDB become so profitable.

I think the Yap family deserve to be helped. Singapore should reciprocate to its people and help them find a roof or shall I say concrete over their heads so that they can stop worrying about housing and focus on contributing to the economy.

Singapore must not be too pragmatic. National Development should be about focusing on caring for the BASIC needs of the people . Without proper shelter, People cannot succeed in anything.

I hope Singapore is not run like a corporate. It should not be because corporate world is based on non-monopoly. Which corporate can enjoy the kind of ‘employees’ like the most unique citiizens of the world? To me, a thesis is owed to explain the singaporean mentality.

yes I agree that blaming them is not as good as taking responsibility for the status quo. The people decides how they want things to be.

We need a COE to buy a car , they means test us for medical care, of course they should do some affordability test for our HDB mortgage , giving an oversized loan to those who cannot manage their finances = sub-prime . And who pays when they default ? Taxpayers. Back to my original point : we need COB : Certificate of Birth – a means test to ensure that would-be parents can afford to give a child a good education and life before they bring them to this cruel world.

If the Yaps sold their first 4 room flat on the advice of HDB (the HDB wanting their outstanding loan and maintenance repaid), then it is outright trickery on the part of the HDB. The mess then was created by the HDB.

You reap what you sow. It applies both ways for the Yaps as for the government.

dear observer (sg-hk), it’s good to hear that there are sympathetic people like yourself around. however, let’s re-look at the facts related by andrew.

we do not know when the yaps acquired their flat but we do know that the mother-in-law moved in in 1999. from 1999 to 2006, all was well with the family. mr yap was earning $1200 and mrs yap was an ops manager in a pub. in 2002, they had their 2nd child. 2007 was the year trouble brewed; why? – because, although not mentioned, the first and 2nd children would start attending school.

my son is in primary one this year and for those of you who have children, you would know the amount of time, money and energy you need to see to this.

it is while providing for the family that the yaps started defaulting on their mortgage loan in 2007 that eventually led to the enforced sale of their home in 2008 to settle the arrears owed to HDB. Couldn’t HDB adopt a kinder approach to ascertain if there is a need to help the family repay the loan at a lower rate? Enforced sale is eviction. Do we need to evict a family at a time when it needs help most?

were the yaps able to forsee this is debatable but the fact is the situation is now REAL. sure, we could argue about things like ‘living within your means’ and ‘cutting clothes with the cloth you have’ etc but don’t you think we should give the family some benefit of doubt and see it that they do not possess such kind of foresight like we are discussing now?

So the sale was made and all arrears owed to HDB was repaid in full. The case ought to have been closed at this point. However, it was/is not. HDB chose to place a nice little black mark at the corner of the family’s application to purchase another unit. the reason given was mr yap’s low salary of $1200. to top it off, hdb sees itself fit to dish out advise to the family to purchase a sardine can of a 3-room flat. be honest, you and i know that a smaller flat is not the solution here – unless you are considering just the one aspect that matters to hdb – money.

mr yap has now grown wiser. he sees long term and wants to buy a 4 room flat “for the long term”. what is wrong with this?. he needed the cash to look after the family even as he goes around scouting for a solution – part of which is the hope that hdb would help him out. what is wrong to expect this as a citizen of this land? is it even wrong to ask?

hdb did not relent even when the mp appealed; even when his salary has gone up to $1450 with more to come if mrs yap could rejoin the workforce should hdb helps them out. hdb’s concern over whether the yaps could furnish their loan is therefore unfounded.

another sorry fact; mr yap’s mother-in-law was being abused by the husband. this is where hdb ought to have a heart and not to dish out rubbish advice to have her live in a rental flat with a complete stranger. who would defend her should the abusive husband comes knocking? no; hdb was looking at making more money out of the family. it would be collecting rent while the family pays for a 3 room flat.

you could also imagine from andrew’s account that mrs yap is dying to go back to work to support the family . . . if only someone would give her a chance.

to those of you who have written to say you were in such similar predicaments, please do not wish it on the yaps or anyone for the matter. you have gone through such hardship and now you are saying: “I’ve been through it, it’s your turn now. take it. hard luck!”. no; we should not do this. we should say, this is wrong and the cycle ought to stop right now!

One change in policy that can be suggested is the following:

I would suggest HDB to offer owners the option for HDB to repossess the flat at $X market rate (rather than forced sale) and allow the ex-owners the option to buy back at $X when they can (eg within a period of z year eg 5 or 10?).

In the meantime, it can allow a leaseback-policy to the ex-owners (using CPF balances if any to pay for the rental).

This will allow owners to carry on living in their existing flat. The HDB will have to fork out some cash but there will be returns in the form of rental payments.

If after z years, the flat owner still can’t buy back, it can offer the flat for sale (adding back z years to new owners and offering appropriate compensation for the difference between this sales price and $X). In fact, this flat sale can be organised in a period when the property market is tighter and hence maximise prices instead of forced selling esp if the property market is weaker thus acting as a compensator.

Also, the temporary cool-off period can allow ex-owners time to plan the next step.

This will require significant capital for HDB (10,000 such units at $400k will need $4b) but the interest cost is offset by the lease payments and it is only a timing difference not actual expense (except for the interest cost of capital). Rather than buying more US$ treasury bills, reserves can be used to help needed Singaporeans first.

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How can you issue a loan of any sort without some due dilligence?

Subprime meltdown and the current global credit crunch mean anything to you?

The bigger issue here is not “WHY” they are practicising means testing because they obviously are and i would expect them to.

You cant possibly be suggesting that HDB begins to give out hefty loans indiscriminately based on how much people need it as opposed to whether they can finance it?

From the story above, they have abt 50k cash from the sale of their house and 115k in their CPF. A 67k loan would put the total available to them at 180k. I agree its not alot, but more than enough for a 3-room.

I understand this is their last chance to get a HDB loan, but they circumstances are less then ideal. Why get this hdb loan and struggle to finance it was well?

They should get their life in order first. To rely on the government to come in to rescue them is a fools game which i would not advise.

In order for them to get out of their vicious cycle of poverty, they have to bite the bullet and get a 3-room. With a smaller loan, they will have smaller mortgages to finance on a monthy basis. They can then begin to save up.

sorry, what was the exact proceed, gross sale, of their prime hdb unit( bukit merah estate) ? what’s their total family wealth or savings plus other assets? what’s their living standard prior to the current financial situation?

thank you

to add to neibor’s query, what are their credit card woes like.? why did the banks refuse them a bank loan.? any detrimental financial records of the family member/s?

“From the story above, they have abt 50k cash from the sale of their house and 115k in their CPF. A 67k loan would put the total available to them at 180k. I agree its not alot, but more than enough for a 3-room”.

fully agree with your calculation and yes, it is enough to buy a 3-room – but really, if it is you, tell me, how would you arrange to house:
i. a husband and wife
ii. a mother-in-law
iii. four children (likely to include both male & female siblings)
into a 3-room flat?

while they strive to get their lives & finances in order, the children will soon grow into teenagers and they will be fighting for spaces of their own etc. and then what?

i believe this is why the yaps thought it best to get a 4-room flat for the long term benefit, and being now wiser, i believe they will be more careful with their sums . . .
all they needed was for someone to give them a chance, a hand – and this why hdb would do well to review their case favourably under these circumstances and not by the $$$ factor it has stated, and to show some compassion and help them out.

one year and repeated appeals is a long time and one would have easily given up if the help they seek in not genuine.

the is a bigger issue here: why are we even fighting for our basic needs? our basic needs like housing and education should not become a burden. this will allow us to contribute to nation building without having to worry about where our next meal will come from. it is sad that we have grown so accustomed to having to fend for ourselves – even for the most basic of necessities – that we dare not now ask for what we should rightly ask for.

some may say this is unrealistic, naive, wishful thinking and well… plain stupidity. i agree…but if you don’t dream, you will not achieve.

Maslow Theorised that humans need to satisfy their basic needs before they can start to accomplish things for themselves and society.

Physiological (eg. food ) and Safety (shelter) needs must be satisfied else people can become a burden to society as they cannot accomplish good things.

National Development should include helping the less fortunate have BASIC shelter and food. else, it does society no good as these people could not contribute more to societ and become a burden to all tax payers.

Ngiam Tong Dow is the chief of HDB right?

I wonder what has he got to say ?

There are so many EXCELLENT ADVICE given here. I humbly suggest that a caring team of ordinary people be formed to help the Yap family – a team consisting of a social worker, a financial consultant, a family that has gone through a financial crisis and a husband-wife team [who has four children]. Plans fail for lack of counsel, but with many advisers they succeed – Proverbs 15:22. Assess the situation, get the correct facts, proceed with gentleness [strength under control], apply practical wisdom and respect the family honor of the Yap family.

“caring team of ordinary people be formed to help the Yap family”
This team should consists of a pastor too: to pray for Yap family and give them encouragement.

now we are talking. this is how human beings should think, act and help one another. bravo to maslow, pastor and daniel.

I have a freind who was caught into a loan tussle because of an ill-advised housing agent. My friend aged 55 is a self-employed man and was looking forward to reap a cool 168K from the sale proceed of his 4 room flat. He then bought a 5 room flat in Hougang for 400K+ plus guided by his HSR agent> based on the financial plan drawn by his agent, he had sufficient funds in his CPF to make the minimum 20% downpayment and rest 80% loan from the bank was easy. He made 5K downpayment for his 5 room flat and lwas only too happy having sufficient funds to expand his business.
To his dismay, the loan back fired..based on his age and income ceiling, the bank approved only 150K,,not one cent more. He was caught in a dilemma. His efforts to break off from the purchase failed. He also felt it was not fair to his sellers who had already placed downpayment for purchase of another flat. He decided to go thru the sale – NOT only did he have to put the profit of 168K made from the sale of his 4room flat, CPF funds of 100K, he had to borrow another 50K from friends, kith and kins. He is in debt of 50K at the age of 55! What frustrates him though is the bank’s failure to give at least a 50% loan based on the valuation for a HDB property! If the bank did so, he need not have to borrow and would have some cash left in his hand for renovation of his newly bought flat. All the AGENT could say was “SORRY” citing new policy by the banks – which was of course a whole bag of garbage. All the agent wanted was to make a cook $10,200 agency commission from both the sale and purchase of flats!!! He is awaiting keys to his new home by which he has already lost the jest and happiness, not mentioning getting wrath from family members for acting so hastily! His agent will laugh his way to the bank!!!

Pastor Pritam Singh should take the lead. Please advise on contact details, time and place to meet for this team.

Mr and Mrs Yap (not their real names) are in such a situation. Having owed the HDB arrears of more than $25,000, including $4,000 in late payment charges, they were forced to sell their 4-room flat in Bukit Merah in September this year.

When the couple had their second child in 2002, Mrs Yap, 33 and who was working as an operations manager in a pub, quit her job in order to care for the infant. Her husband was then working in dispatch. Their 4-room flat in Bukit Merah then was home to six persons – including their two children and Mr Yap’s parents, who had moved in with them in 1999. (They later had two more children – in 2005 and 2008).

After more than 6 months of appealing to the HDB, she feels frustrated as during the period, prices of flats have escalated and has made it harder for them to purchase a new home. Prices of 4-room flats in Teck Whye have risen to as high as $240,000 and $305,000 – figures which Mrs Yap took from the HDB website and included in her email to the HDB.

Pastor Pritam Singh should take the lead. Please advise on contact details, time and place to meet for this team!

Pastor Pritam Singh should take the lead. Please advise on contact details, time and place to meet for this team.!

Mrs Yap is extremely disappointed that HDB would consider her husband’s salary too low to service a mortgage loan.

After more than 6 months of appealing to the HDB, she feels frustrated as during the period, prices of flats have escalated and has made it harder for them to purchase a new home. Prices of 4-room flats in Teck Whye have risen to as high as $240,000 and $305,000 – figures which Mrs Yap took from the HDB website and included in her email to the HDB.

In September, after numerous appeals spanning almost one year, a glimmer of hope surfaced. HDB informed them that it is “reviewing [their] re-appeal for a higher HDB loan”. That glimmer turned to frustration again one week later when the HDB informed them that it is “unable to accede” to their request for a higher loan.

Singapore officially in RECESSION!!!!!

>>Singapore officially in RECESSION!!!!!
Yup…expect to see more such families…sigh

Two things everyone needs to understand:

Prime concern for HDB as organisation: Generate profits, avoid risky creditors such as the Yaps (not to say that they don’t deserve the loan, but one can see that they are stretching Mr Yap’s income pretty tight here)

Prime concern for HDB staff: Protect ricebowl.

there you go!

the pastor above should take heed. you belong to a fold that espoused salvation under the same doctrinal banner as those who pocket $50k a month as service to your god and his flocks. how many of your flocks get paid that kind of salary? and the church seems to be more concern of its own ‘growth’, correlating growth with ’salvation’ ( false?)and the justification of bigger and grander premises and forgetting their master clear instruction to:

1john 3: 17
but whoso hat this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels[ of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
v18
my little children,let us not love in word, nether in tongue( abundance of useless sermons); but in DEED and in TRUTH.

perhaps, the pastor and all his well paid ministers( similar to our political ministers) will pay heed to their master voice less we( flocks and the world) brand them hypocrites?

1john 3: 17
but whoso HATH this world’s good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels[ of compassion] from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

sorry for the typo above and others…

Andrew, Your update on the comments by readers still did not addressed the underlying issue of FINANCIAL PRUDENCE AND PLANNING.

Again, I have to re-emphasize, even if you give them a loan to buy a 4rm hdb, they will still find it hard to service the loan and they will still find it hard to feed the kids and everyone.

The whole issue here is that they have to admit that they have not been financially prudent, they did not plan for an enlarged family (with 4 kids?).
So, now that they are at this stage, they still want to live in a 4room so that everyone has a room??

Can they make do with a 3room flat. Let the YAPs parents and parent-in-low stay in one room each. The YAP and their 4 kids can sleep in the living room.

IT WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM THAT THE YAPS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT. Mrs YAP can go and find a job..

THEY CAN SAVE AND SAVE.. and when Both jobs are stable, they can upgrade!

HARLOW Andrew… you want to justify your case against means-testing but obviously, this case does not hold water as it is really a case of financial prudence…
*SIC*

Oh.. by the way.. During my poly days.. I have a classmate who was poor.

The family consist of my friend, his 4 siblings (total 5) and parents and grandparents.

THEY WERE LIVING IN A 3 ROOM FLAT.
The SIBLINGS all slept in the LIVING ROOM.

NO CHOICE…. Luckily for the parents, the kids are all good kids and they all finished school and work and contribute to the household and gradually. … THEY UPGRADED TO A 5 room … (but 2 of the siblings moved out as they were married).

SO… please… Don’t wait for the handout…

why should they compromise when there is much abundance around except that, the cream of the crop has creamed off all the icing, setting up impossible rules,demands and expectations without considering the human factor etc?

maybe we should wait till more run over by highly profitable trains?

Qoute. Mr and Mrs Yap (not their real names) are in such a situation. Having owed the HDB arrears of more than $25,000, including $4,000 in late payment charges, they were forced to sell their 4-room flat in Bukit Merah in September this year. Unquote.

1) Could their real names be Mr & Mrs Yatim?
2) Arrears of $25,000 over a period of 21 mths = $1190.48 per mth. How much do they think they can afford to pay for the new instalments if the HDB were to approve a new loan.
3) Do Singapore owe them the right to have a 4 room flat and a big family and when they get into financial trouble, concessions should be extended to them?
4) For those who feel that the HDB is being heartless, why don’t you all chip in to help them financially. Perhaps Pastor Singh could get his congregation to start the ball rolling.

Just for the record, My wife and I are struggling to raise two kids with the resources of a single income. And I moved from a 3 room to another 3 room so as not to over extend myself. I love children and I wanted more but realised that I would be depriving them of a better quality of life.
The reality of life is that, at the end of the day, it’s up to you, and you alone to face
adversity and the consequences of wrong decisions made.
For people looking for sympathy, they can find it in the dictionary. It’s there somewhere between Shit and Syphilis.

“70) isa on October 10th, 2008 3.25 pm

The whole issue here is that they have to admit that they have not been financially prudent, they did not plan for an enlarged family (with 4 kids?).”

Yah la. You are so clever hoh. When someone is down financially, it is not too difficult to find reasons of what he did was wrong.

May I ask you then. With the global financial turmoil now and with so big banks getting in deep troubles, why did not those bankers who may be holding phd, master, string of other superduper financial qualifications plan properly in the first place.

isa,
For salary of $1450, they should have a monthly contribution of at least $300 in OA, monthly instalment of $100,000 loan is $401 (30 years repayment), http://services2.hdb.gov.sg/webapp/BB29MTHLY/BB29PInstalEnq.jsp
much more cheaper then renting a flat, most important, this will be the last loan at concessionary rate, I don’t see anything wrong with their request of wanting to get a 4 room flat for long term & I didn’t find anything they say about “the children is hard to feed”, what’s wrong with the four kids anyway? There’s even people with six kids which I know from other forum.

And what kind of ’stage’ they’re in now? As I read I understand that they’ve paid all the arrears to HDB & TC & they still get back some cash proceeds, maybe you should read the whole story again to get the real message, HDB is not charity, of course, they’re asking for a loan with interest, isn’t it?

isa, financial prudence and planning is one of the underlying factor – not THE factor. if the Yaps were phophetically gifted, they probably would have planned ahead and avoided these pitfalls like some of our dear friends have been canvassing here.

the yaps probably understands this albeit a little late – let us not make it sound as if there is no cure except to face the ilness as it is.

they probably know they could live in a 3-room flat but what is wrong to now see ahead and think further down the line. the second loan from hdb is all they could cling on to what with the banks having already blacklisted them. the last thing they need in their time of need is for hdb to blacklist them as well.

why must we have to have a “so and so have live through it so should you” kind of mentality?

can’t we seek to change a system that is utterly self-serving and totally wrong because it has somehow shifted from its original purpose in providing housing for all Singaporeans – regardless.

i think it is clear they are not asking for a handout. they are asking if someone could give them a chance to, if you like, correct a mistake they had made.

you still want to have the last words don’t you? who the fuk you think you guys are? the new government?

get off your high horses!

now put back up those legitimate posts. if you want to delete anyone of those LEGITIMATE POSTS, give a fuking reason why you are deleting it!

let courtesy be our way of life . . . . . let’s build a gracious society . . . . . let’s take the next lap to help our fellow Singaporeans who are lagging behind . . . . . let’s have more good years . . . . . wow! . . . we are here at last ! ! !

why can’t I reply?

‘let courtesy be our way of life’ . . . . ‘let’s build a gracious society’ . . . . . ‘let’s have more good years’ . . . . . ‘let’s run the next lap TOGETHER’ . . . . . wow! . . . . we have arrived, haven’t we?

fukofff , lzy.
I hardly think that “post censorship” is done intentionally, it is more to do with the spam system they used. I have some posts that take some time to appear or just never appear.

I will have preferred ONline Citizen used simple captcha system instead of automated spam system.

Daniel,

I thot you were asking me to f*off *LOL*

I posted earlier but not sure what happened it just didn’t appear.

thanks, daniel. i was wondering what happened to my posts too. luckily i chose to be a little wee bit patient . . .

“76) fukoff on October 10th, 2008 4.06 pm

you still want to have the last words don’t you? who the fuk you think you guys are? the new government?”

Help us lah. Tell this also to our dear MSM lah. At least, here you are still able to announce to all of us here your unique name and show us another side of your emotion. Long live the internet.

isa,

where you read “hard to feed the children” from? I’ve read again & again I didn’t find anything they complain about the children.

“now that they are at this stage” may I know what kind of stage you mean? I thot they’ve cleared all the arrears to HDB & TC, get some cash proceed, I didn’t read anything that they’re complaining “poor”.

At this stage means they want to buy a 4rm but cannot get a loan for it.

But they still insist on living in a 4rm and used all sorts of excuse to justify why they need a loan.

I’m sorry but there is an alternative for them. DOWNGRADE. Get a 3rm please.

We are not talking about someone who is living in a 1 rm rental flat and an odd job labourer who will be evicted from his flat ‘coz he can’t pay the rent. I believe in this case, you should help ‘coz the person has no alternative. 1 rm rental flat is the lowest form of housing available for the person.

For our Mr Yap, there is an alternative of 3rm.

The “hard to feed kids” part is what I forsee when they buy a 4rm flat they cannot afford and to service the loan means taking up bulk of their disposable income.

I know you guys want to sympathize with the victim and some will linked it to “oh..they have to lived in misery when our govt lived in luxury”.
But, this 2 are separate issues that need to be tackled separately.
If you linked the two.. there is no end. “Oh, Transport fare increased but the govt lived in luxury and drive cars and they will not be affected.”
Again, this 2 are separate issues..

#75) gemami on October 10th, 2008 3.58 pm
They can think further..sure… why not a think further, a 5room?
The issue is here and now. They cannot afford it. So, they have to downgrade. Plain and Simple.

Why not plan ahead ? Give themselves a goal.
Ok, I settle for 3 room. We will work hard and saved more money for that 4room we want to get next time.

I’m not telling you so and so lived thru and so everyone must experienced that. I’m saying he has a choice and the choice is simple. He refused to accept responsibility for that. My friend’s parents accepted that they cannot afford a 4rm, they have to settle for a 3rm and bring up their kids.

People take responsibility and care of themselves. These are people who will get out of the poverty cycle.

Referring to Post Number 58 from Tanning . . . . . Pastor Pritam Singh should take the lead. Please advise on contact details, time and place to meet for this team! . . . . can I suggest a date on a Saturday afternoon to meet the Yap family and a caring team of ordinary volunteers.

What I understand from Andrew’s update, they don’t intent to get a 3 rooms flat because they doesn’t want to waste the 2nd time of their concessionary loans & they actually asked for cancellation of the approved loan & not pressuring HDB to loan them the amount they want.

Right or wrong, I think it’s unfair for us, the outsiders to judge.

If the Yap family die die cannot do without the 4-room flat, may I suggest the following:

- Opt for a 4-room at Jurong West or Marsiling/Woodlands. They cost $180k to $200k.

If they die die must get a flat in Teck Whye, may I suggest

- Mr Yap get a part-time job at night.

- Mrs Yap start on the part-time job that she said she wanted to get.

- Let her mother move in to take care of the kids even if it means sleeping in the living room for a while only. After the income of the family has increased, they can get the 4-room they wanted and then everyone will have their own rooms.

#87
If it’s unfair for outsiders to judge, then why is an outsider, ANdrew, writing an article with an opinion/view on it? He is judging it right?

UnreadMan,

Are you sure 4-room at Jurong West or Marsiling/Woodlands cost $180k to $200k?

http://www.hdb.gov.sg/bb33/ispm051p.nsf/Search?OpenForm&Seq=1

UnreadMan,

Are you sure 4-room at Jurong West or Marsiling/Woodlands cost $180k to $200k?

[url]http://www.hdb.gov.sg/bb33/ispm051p.nsf/Search?OpenForm&Seq=1[/url]

UnreadMan,

Are you sure 4-room at Jurong West or Marsiling/Woodlands cost $180k to $200k?

I think you should check the transcation, FYI, my relatives who stay at JW told me that her 4room flat (#3) worth coming $300k.

isa,

I don’t see Andrew is saying right or wrong about the Yaps, why are you so pissed? It’s just a discussion afterall.

Easy to find out liao. Cheapest median price for 4 rm is $235k.

Actual prices can be found here:
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/bb33/ispm051p.nsf/Search

Median prices can be found here.
http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10201p.nsf/WPDis/Buying%20A%20Resale%20FlatStatistics%20-%20Median%20Resale%20Prices%20by%20Town%20and%20Flat%20Type?OpenDocument

Yishun is the overall cheapest place to get a 4rm in Singapore. Ironic since Yishun isn’t as far as Sembawang, not as old as Toa Payoh and not as little facilities as Seng Kang.

3rm is woodlands.

Referring to Post Number 69 from Ghandhis, thank you for your response to me. I have just pioneered a new independent church in Singapore and have a heart of passion and compassion for people. I am an ordinary Singaporean and my wife and I do not own a car, live in a HDB home, travel by public transport and live simple but purpose-driven lives. I do not, as you wrongly presume, make such salaries. In fact, I have not paid tax for the last few years because my annual income falls below the base minimum. But, boy do I work hard at many things that just don’t pay! Contrary to the Abraham Maslow Hierarchy of Needs, we believe in sacrifice, servant leadership, significance and service to God, country and man as our highest meaning in life. And contrary to many opinion, money is not the end all and be all for a holistic solution. There are root issues to be dealth with. Ghandhis, thank you once again. You are in my prayers. I have to quickly take the bus for a Friday cell group, consisting of blue collar workers, a lady who is a PC [plate collector - at your friendly foodcourt!], a driver, a maid, a secretary and some students.

I live in Jurong West Extension and there are lots of empty units available here. HDB flats are definitely cheaper here than anywhere else. The Yap family is in my prayers and I definitely want to meet them with a team of ordinary caring individuals. [not to evangelize but to show love, care and bring hope to their situation].

Prices of 4-room flats transacted between Jul 08 and Sep 08 (taken from hdb site):

Marsiling Dr $176,000.00
Marsiling Dr $178,000.00
Marsiling Dr $200,000.00
Marsiling Dr $205,000.00
Marsiling Dr $188,000.00
Woodlands St 11 $204,000.00
Woodlands St 13 $206,000.00
Woodlands St 41 $205,000.00
Woodlands St 82 $205,000.00
Woodlands St 32 $181,000.00
Woodlands St 32 $193,000.00
Woodlands St 41 $180,000.00

Yishun Ave 11 $199,000.00
Yishun Ave 6 $190,000.00
Yishun Ave 6 $168,000.00
Yishun Ave 7 $175,000.00

There are lots more…

Yup, supports the argument that the Yaps have narrowed their own options a little too much.

$168k for a 4rm flat in Yishun is not that unaffordable to the Yaps. $100+k in CPF + $6Xk loan offered by HDB now doesn’t look that unreasonable….

“84) isa on October 10th, 2008 5.16 pm
I know you guys want to sympathize with the victim and some will linked it to “oh..they have to lived in misery when our govt lived in luxury”.
But, this 2 are separate issues that need to be tackled separately.
If you linked the two.. there is no end. “Oh, Transport fare increased but the govt lived in luxury and drive cars and they will not be affected.”

In life, a lot of things are inter-related depending on where you stand and from what perspective you hold.

Of course, you want to separate the issues. Divide and attack. Easier for you and no mess just like what those big brothers always like. As you can see here, certain people just refuse to play by your parameter. You are right, there will always be no end to this kind of argument because we just see things differently.

If Mr. Yap is your brother, can you frankly let me know whether you will hold the same view.

Sometimes, the view of a poor pauper is as good and as valid as the view of some big hot shot. Just that the latter has more resources to scre* the former. The only way for the former to scre* back the latter is to unite in strength in order to create a big credible force.

Paying citizens also have the right to re-link the issues because they simply see it as one whole big problem where they feel that leaders have to set good example and not just preach. Which is more easy, preach or do ?

(#97) .. Yes, if he was my brother, I would advise him to downgrade. I will show him what financial prudence means.

Heck! I’m even living it. I can live in pte condo with full cash payment..
But I choose to live in my trusty HDB because I believed living in Pte condo does not enhance my life or will lead to a more fulfilling life.

I know the value of money and choose to use the money wisely and saved up for retirement.

UnreadMan, lim,

(I took the lastest – Sept transcation)

Yishun from $190,000 – $335,000
Woodlans from $193,000 – $325,000
Jurong West from $172,000 – $359,000
Teck Whye from $215,000 – $240,000

(#97) On your comments on issues are inter-related and we should see it as one big problem that leaders should practise what they preach.

Ok, here goes..
Supposed we linked the two issues,
Issue A – YAP cannot pay for 4rm but die die want to complain and gain sympathy for their predicament and not taking responsibility for their lack of financial prudence.
Issue B – Govt are paid obscene sum of $$ to live in luxury.

We now need to see… Are these two issues if these two issues are inter-dependent.

Let’s apply the test of causality.. that if Issue B was solved , would Issue A be solved?

Please tell me, would that happen? I think not. So, I would opined that the two issues have no causality effect and are not INTER-DEPENDENT but they could be inter-related if you really want to.

Ok, so now we die die want to link the issues together…
We FORCED the govt to accept lower pay…
Now we go back to mr Yap… he happily buys the 4rm flat …
Will he lived happily ever after?
Have he learnt to plan for his financial outcome?

If he have not learnt that.. I beg that he will have the same issue.

So, i have re-emphasize, the root cause is the financial planning and taking responsibility for one’s action.

Izzy,

:) It’s alright, I am not pissed off. I thought that was a good discussion.

isa,

Issue A – YAP cannot pay for 4rm but die die want to complain and gain sympathy for their predicament and not taking responsibility for their lack of financial prudence.

hmm.. I don’t think they’re asking for sympathy, they’re cancelled the loan, isn’t it?

I think this is one of those cases where few people will be sympathetic to.

While a roof over one’s head is an entitlement, a 4-room flat isn’t. If you are born into unfavourable conditions, you just have to bite the bullet temporarily while working towards a better future.

Our government may be unfeeling sometimes but this isn’t one of those instances. HDB did offer a $67k loan despite Yaps having a bad credit history. But Mrs Yap rejected it somewhat bitterly since they didn’t give her what she wanted.

UnreadMan,

Isn’t it better for them to cancel it? Since they don’t want a 3 room flat, maybe they’ve other plannings & work hard for their dreamt 4 room flat :D

Given that their flat has been sold in Sep 08, is it more important now to get a cheaper 4-room flat in Jurong West/Yishun/Woodlands so that their kids and abused mother can have a home ASAP

OR

is it more important to wait indefinitely for HDB give them a bigger loan to buy a more expensive flat in Teck Whye?

Izy,

I do hope they have a backup plan. It is stated that they sold their flat in Sep 08.

#103..
AYE AYE..

105) UnreadMan on October 10th, 2008 7.22 pm Given that their flat has been sold in Sep 08, is it more important now to get a cheaper 4-room flat in Jurong West/Yishun/Woodlands so that their kids and abused mother can have a home ASAP

OR

is it more important to wait indefinitely for HDB give them a bigger loan to buy a more expensive flat in Teck Whye?

———————————————————————————————
(I took the lastest – Sept transcation)

Yishun from $190,000 – $335,000 (avg $262,500)
Woodlans from $193,000 – $325,000 (avg $ 259,000)
Jurong West from $172,000 – $359,000 (avg $265,500)
Teck Whye from $215,000 – $240,000 (avg $227,000)

Teck Whye isn’t that expensive like you say but I think the $67,000 given is not enough for them to purchase at any of the area we mentioned above :(

“HDB must be affordable to all.”
No matter how expensive, it always affordable by government’s standard. If you can’t pay 30 years, you can pay 60 years, and your children can help PayAndPay. The question is why should we have to pay so much for HDB in the first place ? This is the fundamental and root question.

Affordable is the word that been misused by the government. You can afford anything as long as you can pay by installment, but whether you can service the installment is another thing. Even the cheapest HDB is no longer cheap.

The problem is worsened by the rising cost and inflation with thank to PayAndPay scheme of the Leegime.

Daniel, I agree with you the root cause of the issues is that the HDB flats are OVERPRICED! We paid too much for poor quality squeezy flats. Its only cost about 30-60k to build a flat.

in the 70s,80s,90s most will take less then 20 yrs with single income to fully pay up the load. It is only when HDB overcharge that cause families like the Yaps to meet with such problems.

Now Isa, what more can you say about this?

110) Izzy,

$110K (CPF) + $67 (HDB Loan) + $49K (Bank balance) = $226K

Not enough for Teck Whye but certainly enough for other areas.

Dear gemami, just for your information, I responded to your #48 post which contain no racist remarks or personal attacks, but somehow it was censored. Strange but again in today’s trying times, I think people just didn’t want respect freedom of expression, even a so-call indpendent coummunity blog space. How pathethic.

115) justkaypoh on October 11th, 2008 2.04 am

I think you are living in the woods. You think the HDB pricing is unfair, poorly structured and over-price? You have a choice not to live in it. No one forces you to live in it or live in one. You can always choose to live in a Condo.

Please, don’t just blindly oppose good governance for the sake of opposing. Think with senses and reasons. Don’t just jump on the wagon. It is not that the Yap cannot afford a roof over their head, it is purely they want it their way and no other way even when they clearly cannot fulfill the financial side of things. I will say let them eat their cake. Cruel, heartless and unsympathetic, call it whatever one’s wished, it is a fact of life. There are much worse off people I can find to help and sympathize.

In my opinion, this article should not even be published. I am suspecting how much value is there discussing a none issue or was there a hidden agenda. You go figure.

You too? Other than the one time when you were overly sarcastic toward my post,
I have always the impression that you are a wise and credible man whose comments I had never dismissed out of hand. Well it’s their turf and their prerogative.

Podefactor, yes indeed. I am challenging them to openly response why the moderation and guess what, that message also got put under moderation. I guess this one too. Don’t go telling everyone how bad and bias the MSM and the Governing policy where I now find them just a waste of my precious time. So much for standing up for freedom of speech. Just appauling.

#117
probably because they think you cannot figure out whether you belong to SG or HK; yes? . . . . . anyway, blog discussions are still better than msm – anytime . . .

116) UnreadMan on October 11th, 2008 4.09 am 110) Izzy,

$110K (CPF) + $67 (HDB Loan) + $49K (Bank balance) = $226K

Not enough for Teck Whye but certainly enough for other areas.
——————————————————————————–

I think it’s not right on your calculation, you should take the lastest transcation price & not from 3 months ago.

JMHO

121) gemami on October 11th, 2008 5.22 pm

Good humor. No, I am beginning to feel tire and sick of all this mercenary movement (if I may term it). Somehow, I felt there is a hidden agenda (in particular this article, that facts provide are in questions ~ parents= father +mother? where do they live before they move, do tthey own a hdb as well, what’s the relationship between Mr. Yap and his parents (father so to speak)…etc can Mr. Yap reconcile with his father assuming he own a hdb to sell it off to help them combine the money to opt for a 4 room so every body can live under the same roof…etc). All these questions that I wished to high-light to you have been lost in transist or was it deemed racist comment that warranted a censorship? Or what is it?

I have been commenting only months ago and revisited quite a few of the articles and its championing content. Apart from the Human Rights compaign week, the rest to me jare ust ranting issues and lop-sided (no more better than MSM).

As you can tell, I will play devil’s advocate from now even though I dislike the many policies of the current governing party. There is a saying, core value changes when the going is ever north way. I guess this site is beginning to look like one.

I am a person that believes in fundamental value and hold my principle of believes and am also a stancthed and strong advocate of freedom of speech and freddom of expression. Any censorship to me defeats the principle foundation of the freddom rules. I can live with any policies the current governing party throw at us, I cannot reconcile only on true freedom of speech and expression. That to me is every human being fundamental rights.

In this aspect, I would thought any kind of views should be respected in its face value and let others to make judgment on the credibility. Ya, nobody likes to hear racist remarks or engaged in personal assault in internet exchange, but if you are to strongly believe in freddom of speech and expression, you cannot avoid differing views. I supposed readers and posters are matured enough to differentiate and made their own conclusion, otherwise, we only prove the governing party right, Singaporean by and large are not matured and gracious enough to weather criticism and inadequate in making their own decision.

If you read on many of the comments in other articles, you will realize what I am implying. Sad as it is, but it is a fact of life. Reality can be ugly and we are not the only one to face it. All my life I have traveled and live in various countries for a significant period of time, long enough to understand a little bit of the local culture and whenever I made the comparison, Singaporean by and large is at the bottom line of things in terms of society graciousness, tolerance, community and citizenry bonding. Worse off if you talk about common ethiquette.

122) Observer(SG-HK) on October 11th, 2008 5.54 pm

fully agree with you. i believe its the reason why we are here in the first place.

unfortunately, we have been ‘cultivated’ and ‘programmed’ in our growing up years and somehow subconciously we tend to lean toward the practices that we have live through in our daily lives. what i mean is that we do sometimes subconciously do the same thing we are fighting to change because of the way we have been programmed.

change will take time. we need to be patient and not to give up so easily . . . else . . . we would be the sort of ‘freedom fighters’ that give up at the first sign of trouble.

give these people a chance to learn from mistakes and – hopefully – things will be presented and shared as they are from now on. we must be optimistic if not we will return to the msm way.

#123 & 124
AYE AYE

Once passed our twenties, changes are unlikely, for mentality and values were cemented during our formative years. Think about the dastardly deeds of highly educated characters holding master degrees and doctorates that we’ve come to know through our own eyes, media reports, hearsay or otherwise, do you believe they pick up those values or the lack of it during the period of advance learning? If we fail to protect our young from indoctrination by the insidious, then Banzai Cliff will be the ultimate fate of this country.

Observer, I don’t think you are alone when comment is not appearing. Most likely the spam system they used is the culprit. Maybe they using the spam system design by the ruling party ?
Look like we should start praising the government from now on, haha

“#122) we only prove the governing party right, Singaporean by and large are not matured and gracious enough to weather criticism and inadequate in making their own decision.”

I am quite surprised that you are making this statement and giving them due credit for the suggestion. I would say “pot calling the kettle black” or even “pot calling the cotton black”.

After all these 43 years and to use an extreme example purely for illustration, it is quite sad that the inventor even has the cheek in telling the robot off to act more like a human.

We are not robots in the strict sense but “gemami” does have a point on ” ‘cultivated’ and ‘programmed’ as in humans and robots respectively.

124) gemami on October 11th, 2008 7.00 pm

“unfortunately, we have been ‘cultivated’ and ‘programmed’ in our growing up years and somehow subconciously we tend to lean toward the practices that we have live through in our daily lives. ”

To an extend, our parents and surrounding relatives (at least speaking in my generation where community Camaraderie is imminent as we all live in very close proximity and people are less calculative), did play an important part in our bringing up (overly protective and/or being coerce to believe submissive is the right behavior to uphold “Refined Confucious Teachings ~ Singapore style”.

In the later years, I think the lack of exposure or the opportunity to get further exposure (sort of live outside the cocoon). All these contributed to the current state of mentality and mindset that I never failed to spot from Singaporeans touring Hong Kong, United States, Thailand, Japan…etc. I even find myself at odds when I do my home tour. It is a sad scene to see. There was a glimmer of hope when I learned of the NTU protest and indeed they should be encouraged to speak their mind more often.

127) Daniel on October 11th, 2008 9.45 pm

I sure wished TOC can address this. I dislike making assumption when factual information can be made available. I fully understand they are on part time basis and is trying to do a community service. To me (may be it is that occupational disease), I cannot tolerate mediocre service. This is my job requirement as well as a business consultant. So I always believe that if you want to provide service work, do your best. It is okay to make mistakes but learned from mistakes and gives your best effort to avoid recurrence. Whether it is free service or lip service, you have got to give it your best.

Praising people is a walk in the park. I rather speak my mind and be honest with my thoughts even if sometime it will get me into trouble. At least , I feel good inside and will stand by what I say with supporting reasoning. Whether one choose to believe or not, you can’t control people’s mindset.

I must say this, I once was very very anti-government (influenced?), then, as I aged and get more exposure and understand life better (at least spiritually I hope), the policies deployed then was necessary under those circumstances. I am not sure of the younger ministers now, I don’t know them and have no clue what they are trying to do for Singapore. All I heard and witness is they are enjoying over-sized packages (even bigger countries Prime Ministership or Presidents cannot match). Do I feel good over it, a resounding no. But then, if they are able to make common Singaporean’s life better, so be it.

Do I see improvement in Singapore over the decades? Obviously yes, but can be better. I supposed the excuse of not opening up more has very much to do with what I had concluded in my earlier post #123.

Anyway, my life will not miss a thing even not having to regularly visit this site again. In any case, I will see changes within Singapore (gradually) and may be 10 years from now, my wish of total “freedom of Speech and Freedom of Expression” will come true albeit I may finally decided to throw in the tower and migrate. If I do, I will be happy for the Citizenry of Singapore.

131) Observer(SG-HK) on October 11th, 2008 10.42 pm
para 3, my sentiments exactly.

and do you now see the parallel with mr yap’s situation.
it is the programming of the human digits over at hdb that could not find it in them to help poor old mr yap and his family, in other words, the heart is missing – as we would expect from following any sort of programmed system.

look around you today and the arguement that the yaps ought ‘to have known better with poor planning etc” does not hold water – at least for me.

is there any certainty what lies ahead even if you have made the best protective plan against and adversities? no; we may have a 20yr plan but things unforseen could happen along the way and then what? we reach out for help and get accused that it is our own damn fault for not looking ahead and plan properly.

i’m sure the yaps had planned for a ‘live happily ever after’ kind of life – but things change – they always do – and even after having sold their first flat, they did not expect to run into problem – least of all with hdb. yes, on hindsight, they now realised it is a mistake to assume hdb would help them out. it is therefore necessary for them to now look more closely at what is best for their future and to try to get the best arrangement – right here, right now – this is why the 4-room flat.
someone quesioned – why 4, why not 5 room? good question. it tells us that the yaps are being reasonable and hdb would do well to read into such things. they ought to, with the thousands of similar cases each year. no; programming is the way, it’s the system adopted.

“Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter,” Martin Luther King Jr