Koh Yi Na, Main Stories, Top Story - Written on Sunday, October 12, 2008 2:00 - 126 Comments
Angry investors turn up at Hong Lim Park to seek redress
TOC interviews some people who turned up at Hong Lim Park, including some investors of structured products.
Update: TOC has been informed that some investors are planning a sit-in protest at DBS’ Shenton Way office building this Wednesday at 10am.
“MAS should do what’s right”, says former NTUC Income chief, Tan Kin Lian, at Speakers’ Corner event which saw more than 1,000 people turn up.
Koh Yi Na
Former NTUC Income Chief Executive, Mr Tan Kin Lian, addressed a crowd of more than 1000 people at Speaker’s Corner in Hong Lim Park yesterday, speaking out for investors who were affected by the recent credit crisis and the loss of their savings invested in financial structured products.
Speaking to a crowd of rather bewildered Singaporean investors, many of whom had lost substantial portions of their life savings, Mr Tan made several proposals for them to seek some form of redress, one of which was a suggestion to organize themselves into groups where investors facing similar predicaments could discuss their respective financial situations and help each other out.
Following Mr Tan’s 10 minute long speech, financial planner and author Mr Leong Sze Hian, took to the stage, and spoke of the importance of diversifying one’s assets. He further explained the maxim “don’t understand, don’t invest”, and advised people to read the fine print on investment documents they signed.
The latter part of Mr Leong’s speech, which was delivered in Mandarin, was welcomed enthusiastically by the largely Mandarin-speaking crowd, largely consisting of middle-aged Singaporeans and retirees, many of whom came with their spouses, children and grandchildren. There were also a number of families and young couples present, all seeking a way to recoup the losses they had incurred, or at the very least, to find someone to explain the situation to them.
Many of the people that The Online Citizen (TOC) spoke to declined to be named, but the frustration, confusion and grief was nonetheless apparent when they spoke on the condition of anonymity. “We didn’t know that our money was going to investment banks,” one man in his 50s told us. “We thought all along that it was just like fixed deposits, very safe, but with a high interest rate. The bank representatives never told us that we could stand to lose so much, just like that.”
Financial structured products – low risk, high returns?
The entire affair began when local banks began offering credit-linked securities in the form of financial structured products, backed by investment bank Lehman Brothers. These structured products included Lehman Minibonds, DBS High Notes 5, Morgan Stanley Pinnacles Notes and Merrill Lynch Jubilee Series 3 LinkEarner Notes.
When Lehman Brothers filed for bankruptcy in September, Singaporeans, who had bought the structured products with the notion that they were low-risk, high returns investments resembling fixed deposits, found their hard-earned savings gone altogether. Unknown to many of them, the banks reserved the right to forfeit their principal payments should the investment banks fall, and fall they did. These investors found themselves missing thousands, and at times, tens of thousands of dollars, money that had been intended for their children’s educations or their retirement funds.
On 9 October, Mr Tan approached the Monetary Authority of Singapore (MAS), the governing authority for banks in Singapore, with a petition bearing 983 signatures, addressed to Senior Minister Goh Chok Tong, chairman of MAS. These signatures were gathered from individuals who had encountered the petition on his blog.
The petition appealed for MAS’ assurance that those who had invested in such financial products were not victims of misrepresentation or fraud by these financial institutions, and requested MAS to commence a full and independent inquiry into the sale of structured products by various financial institutions in Singapore. It also asked MAS to help the investors claim adequate compensation for their losses, caused by the misconduct of the banks offering structured products without providing sufficient information.
The event at Speaker’s Corner was meant as a gathering ground for investors who had suffered losses to voice their concerns and seek some form of relief. After the speeches by Mr Tan and Mr Leong at 5pm, investors huddled under various placards bearing titles such as “Pinnacle notes”, “Minibonds”, “High notes”, and “Jubilee notes and others” to discuss the proposals suggested by both speakers.
Redress and recourse
One of these was Mr Tan’s offer of an arrangement he had made with a lawyer for affected investors to make a sworn statement regarding the investment in the structured product, which could later be used to support investors’ complaint to their respective financial institutions and with the Financial Industry Dispute Resolution Center, or FIDREC. References were also made to a potential second petition, and particulars of investors were collected.
At 6pm, Mr Tan repeated his speech for the benefit of those who were unable to hear him the first time round because of the size of the crowd and the limited audio reach of the self-powered amplifier.
For the two to three hours that the event lasted, the field was flooded with people, undoubtedly the most that Speaker’s Corner has seen since it opened in 2001. Many looked lost as they tugged along entire families, and some approached strangers with sheets of paper, on which were written their structured products, banks and the amount of money they had spent on these investments. A substantial number of these were retirees who spoke little or no English, and had not understood the speeches, nor been able to access Mr Tan’s website and the advice located there.
Several passersby and onlookers milled around, listening in on groups of people, or discussing the credit market and structured products among themselves. One middle-aged man told TOC, “I didn’t lose any money from this, but I know some people who have lost their entire life savings, hundreds of thousands.” It was a sentiment that was echoed repeatedly around the field, as scenes of retirees, thirty-somethings and middle-aged Singaporeans breaking down into tears and pleading for help from Mr Tan or Mr Leong were seen.
Expectations of MAS’ actions
TOC met up with Mr Tan towards the end of the event, and asked him what he felt MAS could realistically do to help the investors. A direct answer was not provided, but what he said perhaps captured what most people could hope for: “…The government, MAS, should do what’s right. After all, these people have put their blood, sweat and tears into their jobs, only to lose it all at once.”
At the end of the event, a man in his 60s caught up with us, saying that he did not mind being caught on tape and having the tape aired on the Internet. “We spent our whole lives building up this country from scratch,” he said. “We worked for thirty, forty years, and we saved all our money to put into the bank. More than one hundred thousand dollars, over all these decades.
“Then they got greedy, and they decided to invest all our life savings into companies like Lehman Brothers. And now, we’re the ones who have to pay, because they’re not doing anything for us. We spent our whole lives working for this country, and now our money is gone.”
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You can view the videos of Mr Tan and Mr Leong’s speeches here.
Read also news agencies’ reports:
Irate investors rally in Singapore – AFP.
Angry Lehman investors hold public meeting in Singapore – Reuters.
Singapore investors decry losses from Lehman bonds – International Herald Tribune.
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Pictures by Damien Chng and sj.
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About Koh Yi Na (written report):
Yi Na is a Year 1 Arts student in Junior College. She is involved in debates and fencing, and enjoys reading and writing whenever possible. She would like to see more online platforms like TOC as an alternative voice to the mainstream media, and she believes that change in Singapore is inevitable.
About Teng Jing Wei (video interviewer):
Jingwei is a Year 1 Arts student in Junior College with varied interests. She hopes to study finance and economics at a tertiary level. She is grateful for the opportunities TOC gives her to pursue her deep interest in current affairs and challenge her preconceived notions about local socio-economic issues.
Mervin Lee (videographer, video editor):
Mervin is an 18-year-old student of the Nanyang Academy of Fine Art, majoring in trombone. His interests include Chinese orchestral music, film-making. He also teaches robotics to secondary students on a part-time basis.
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Below is a video of Mr Tan Kin Lian’s interview with the media. (TOC’s own video of interviews will be up soon.)
Investors explain about how they came to invest in structured products:
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Related posts:
126 Comments
Well done, Singaporeans & fellow comrades.
For decades, many ppl have been over confident on PAP govt, including when mentioning GLCs. Now they have to pay for the price. This is not a political issue but a political lesson that more than 10, 000 victims will never forget – in the next GE
You expect MAS to step in to help you?
Goh Chok Tong, Chairman of MAS:
“I know (individual) Singaporeans have been hurt; they have invested in Lehman Brothers mini-bonds, in High Notes … and more have been hurt investing in equities,” he said. .
“But that’s life — if you want to have a good rewards, you’ve got to take risk.
“Otherwise, leave your money in your CPF … Four per cent is a fabulous return without risk. Singaporeans complained it was too low, (but) now they know the meaning of a capitalistic existence.”
To him, the amount must be peanuts. The issue none. Let’s move on. See things in perspective. Gave up on the so called leaders long ago. See the crap they spew in parliament when they are awake to make their speeches? Saw how Lily Neo got pissed off by the crap reply Grace Fu gave? Got slapped enough already.
Close down your DBS/POSB Accounts
Sgcynic (#4),
There is always the option of transfering all your DBS/POSB funds to another local bank and/or closing the DBS/POSB bank account. It is rational to protect your assets from very same bank that you felt that had cheated you or your associates.
Days have passed by, weeks have gone by, and still no constructive solution is offered to the anxious, aggrieved investors (especially the elderly folks) about their failed investments.
Surprisingly, our smart Singapore ministers have nothing to say or offer no help at all. They are living in the world of oblivion and make-belief that with them all things will end well because with their talents they could not fail.
At least, if kind words are offered and assurance are given to look into this matter why banks or financial insitutions were selling these toxic investments, people will come to terms or even accept this misfortune.
“Otherwise, leave your money in your CPF … Four per cent is a fabulous return without risk.”
Anyone here who knows whether CPF has a separate division which takes in FD or savings with short-term drawing tenure liike 6-mth, 1-year, etc.
If I am not mistaken, even your savings & FD is protected up to sgd20,000/- per person with any one bank. The more you save, the more you have to spread your savings among several banks in order to have “full protection”. What a way to save.
http://mrwangsaysso.blogspot.com/2008/10/how-to-protect-your-money-in-singapore.html
MSM reported over 500 turned up.
I reckon it was 1000 who turned up.
Technically speaking the MSM reporting was not incorrect.
But I would tell people 1000 turned up , as can be estimated from the pictures shown on TOC blog.
It’s sad, isn’t it, my condolences to those who have lost their money but this has show the ugly side of Singaporean. They are only concerned when it impact is on them. A forum on fares increase andthe turn out was 200. A forum on media censorship and you see 60. A final respect to JBJ and you see 70.
Close down your DBS/POSB Accounts
DBS COMPENSATES HK INVESTORS BUT NOT SINGAPOREANS
Source: China Daily
DBS said it will redeem 70 investors’ Lehman Brothers-related products sold by the bank, making it the first financial institution in Hong Kong to compensate investors in response to the government’s pledge to help the bond holders recover some losses quickly.
Some 21 banks in Hong Kong, according to the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA), have sold minibonds and similar products backed by Lehman Brothers, which was the fourth-largest investment bank in the US until its collapse last month.
A spokeswoman at DBS said the bank is only responsible for the structural bonds, while other bonds related to Lehman Brothers were issued by another firm.
She said the bank has designated accounting firm KPMG to revalue the products to be bought back and did not rule out the possibility that some bond buyers will be totally refunded.
Analysts said DBS set a good example for other banks having issued Lehman Brothers-related products, but noted that it may be a while before investors actually receive their compensation.
Tens of thousands of Hong Kong people invested a total of HK$15.6 billion in the Lehman Brothers-backed derivatives, and they all face substantial losses.
The number of complaints concerning Lehman Brothers-related products has increased sharply to 7,730 from 5,500, and will grow further, the HKMA said yesterday. The authority has opened an investigation into whether the banks misled investors into buying them, it said.
“But we cannot comment on how long it will take to investigate the problems, because it depends on the capacity of the investigation team and availability of information provided,” HKMA Executive Director Raymond Li told reporters at a press conference yesterday.
Y K Choi, deputy chief executive of the HKMA, said that to avoid similar cases in the future, the HKMA – the city’s de facto central bank – is studying which risky financial products can be sold to retail investors and which should not be.
Among the total complaints received by HKMA, 6,012 cases are in the initial processing phase, while 1,476 cases require verification, and 242 complaints have been put in assessment for further action.
Li said investors complained they were misled into thinking they were buying a form of corporate bonds and were unaware until recently that the bonds were guaranteed by troubled Lehman Brothers.
They accused the banks of not fully disclosing the risks involved.
Some minibonds consist of high-risk derivatives such as synthetic collateralized debt obligations and credit default swaps.
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Why still leave your money in the hands of the bank that cheated you or your associates? Transfer your funds to another local bank. Close down your fixed deposit with DBS/POSB. Take your money out before history repeats itself again!
I noticed that quite a number of these investors, do NOT understand English. While I understand that it is the job of the salespeople promote and push their financial products, my question is this: Have they violated any regulations while promoting their products to thie non-English speaking clients, who could not have understood the contract when they can’t even speak English? In the process of translation, could the salespeople have misguided their clients? The risks, terms and conditions could have been in black and white on paper, but could the salespeople have mistranslated them? Is it even morally right, to encourage one to purchase a product, with their life-long savings, even though he or she does not fully understand it?
Although I did not invest in any Lehman products, I have close friends and relatives who are badly hurt financially. Now that we have all voiced our complaints, I am sure the Spore govt and the reputable Banks will do something to compensate the victims – hopefully. So try to be calm and give our Ministers a fair chance to respond positively. After all, we (most of us) elected them into office – so we must have faith in them – that they will act in our best interests. Have faith and be calm. Help could be on the way – who knows? I don’t believe that with all the noise and complaints, the govt would just ignore us and do nothing. Have a pleasant Sunday!
@Sgcycnic
Technically Mr Goh is correct, and I do not disagree, that there are risks in investing. Irregardless if its bonds, stocks or currency trading, you, as the investor, must know the risks.
As in my post above, I realise that many of these investors probably do not even know the risks! Why? I suggest the following possibilities:
Firstly, they may not have sufficient knowledge of the product.
Secondly, they trust the salesperson because “they are from the bank, and the bank would not want our monies to disappear, would they?”
Thirdly, they may have been misled by the salespeople, especially when they are not English-speaking to even understand the product themselves.
Fourthly, the salespeople may not even fully understand the product themselves. This means that they could not have been properly equipped with the details to put forth to their clients.
I will not even attempt to predict the outcome … but the question I put forth is this: Looking at the impending trends, can we still trust our local financial institutions to keep our savings safe in the near future?
I wonder – Was Goh Chok Tong just plain lazy by giving such a comment. Golly – he is heading MAS and that is the official statment he gave? Kick him out of MAS!
yeah sure – PAP govt will do something.
After DBS HK announced they will help Hong Kongers, our DBS Singapore is still very very quiet.
Are you proud of MAS?
Why is Tan Kin Lian doing the honourable thing that should be done by Goh Chok Tong to endear himself and PAP to Singapore?
this is defining moments for the financial industry.
We hope to see the industry see as in the words of CEO of HKMA that the financial markets do not exist to serve the interest of intermediaries( the FIs and salespeople) (to make them rich or to make insurance agents qualify for MDRT or TOT) but the consumers’ needs.
We hope products with hidden toxic will not be allowed to be retailed to the man in the street.
We hope that insurance products with empty and rotten core hidden beneath the rubbish frills will not be allowed in the market. Products like anticipated endowment hidden in names like cashback, coupons refund or some fanciful names.
We hope financial products will be regarded as solutions to consumers’ needs and not as products to let the salesmen earn huge commission.
We hope MAS will wake up from its long comatos sleep and realise that the damage the sleep has caused.
WE hope these poor victims of the FIs and their agents will get whatever they have lost in full.
WE hope our hope will have a happy ending.
In the past, people have a low opinion of lawyers. Now bankers take the top spot, next to our politicians of course.
To Close down your DBS/POSB Accounts (#5) and xaerox (#11), I have long ago reduced my savings with the local banks to a minimum. My POSB account is purely for GIRO and petty cash transactions. Not that I have much in the first place. I don’t even worry about exceeding the $20k bank guarantee for each account. :( I could not identify with any of the three heartlander families reported in the Sunday Times (5 Oct). And I thought I was a middle-class. :>
3 top jobs to avoid at all costs:-
1) politicians
2) bankers
3) bank tellers
Why our dear MM and SM keep quiet only. This crisis affect many singaporeans and this MM somemore go and talk in what indian seminar, India, China will be power house blah, blah, blah wasting time and our own problems he don’t want to solve. What golden period is he talking !!
The acid test of whether our MPs and Ministers love the people or their fat pay check is whether they bring it up to the Parliament House and raise the issue.
Also, from their tone and sincerity, we will see whether it is ALL A SHOW or it is genuine.
Would the real MPs or Ministers with a heart for the people please STAND UP?
OR IS THERE NONE TO BEGIN WITH??
Pragmatism Extremists everywhere
9) SevenEleven on October 12th, 2008 1.55 pm
Sad is not the word. The situation is beyond sad. There is no word i know to describe the extreme level of pragmatism of singaporeans.
This turnout is not so much concern for others who lost money as much as a turn out due to personal individual interests. their own money is lost and all they are concerned is how someone could help them not lose so much money when they themselves made the decision to invest. I would agree that if indeed they were misled in anyway compensation should be awarded to them and those who have wrongdoings be charged.
I only hope these people would turn out on issues affecting the people at large like electricity hike and singtel hike. But we know the answer.
New term : Extreme Pragmatism.
Uniquely Singapore.
Yes.. I find this event very sad …where is the govt action, where is the opposition? Where is the president?
Just hearing the old lady whose a clerk speak at the end with the emotion.. makes me feel like giving all retail RMs a hard time.
But I know protests are illegal here. Don’t bother.. it is not illegal in HK , that’s why resolution have been swift. Companies and govt are just plain scared of protests that hurts their image.
Singaporeans are too domicile … even when they have lose their life savings…
What I would suggest is those affected people go direct to the bank and the Rm.. and scold them in front of everyone..
I don’t use retail banks but I will do my part and give retail banks RMs a hard time from now on ..
#20…
Don’t just blame the ministers and PAP..
Think about the Opposition..
WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?? ZILCH.. NIL.. ZERO..
They are the one who should wake up from their slumber
By the day we see more and more of the incompetency, arrogance and uncaring attitude of the govt being exposed.
The obnoxious uncaring arrogance of the MM, SM and other ministers is palpable. Especially the MM, they have their foot in their mouths for all those hollow boasts of theirs all these years. Leaders of straw who built their reputation on a house of cards.
They think they are smart when in fact they have been bulldozing around in an arena out of their depth.
#23 isa
I think it is wise for the oppositions not to say anything in this case.
If the oppositions were to lead in this protest, the govt will make sure they do not score any political point and make sure these investors do not get a penny back.
I am sure the few opposition MPs will post some questions in the next perliament seating. If you want your voice to be heard, you will have to put more opposition into Parliament. Period.
where are the two smart netizens who hold so many pro govt. positions ?
lim and smallvoice585.
lim seems quite well verse in the legal aspect .
and smallvoice can see the political big picture
time for you chaps to give some useful advice or comments to your fellow citizens affected by the investment fiasco, or be more pro active and help Tan Kin Lian out.
Ah Siao said:
“If the oppositions were to lead in this protest, the govt will make sure they do not score any political point and make sure these investors do not get a penny back.”
Come on …. How could our caring govt do this sort of things to the ppl? You must be joking. We were told of this “social contract” thing between the ppl and the govt. As long as the ppl have trust in the govt (e.g. not supporting any opposition), the govt will look after them. The SG ppl being so tame and supportive of the SG govt will sure deserve more from the SG govt than what the HK govt gives to the HK ppl who are so rowdy at times with the HK govt.
will we be catch by the government or ISD if we take part in the wed 10am sitting protest at DBS? can anyone advise? thank you.
Ah Siao,
YOu have a point there but I feel the opposition SHOULD speak up for the cheated investors. If the govt does not do anything just to spite the opposition, then Singaporeans will see them for what they really are, and they will really lose votes at the next election.
28) one day,
u can protect in Hong Lim Park with any troubles..
no one will catch u…but must be a lot of pp..so will go to main media,..
but protest ELECTRICITY fees increaces is better..
it made us really..mad!!
i can see (harmer) hitting (lighting) and rain will fall to us….
as what we usually see on the show..
and tat will come true..
:)
I find it more and more complicated.
An earlier comment posted before #32 about There being a lil conspiracy theory going on…. was deleted immediately as it was posted.
Stop using DBS services! I shifted all my money to Maybank which gives a 0.5% interest higher than DBS for a normal bank account. Why bother to use DBS? Many folks started saving when POSB still independent now when DBS bought up POSB on the cheap and got all our depositor accounts making it rich with cash. All the old folks still believe POSB is POSB while infact no more than a DBS. Trusting a bank blindly is not good at all. MAS better do the right thing and follow suit what the HKMA is doing. This year has been a blunder full year for the Singapore Ruling party, hope they stop the buck here with it.
FG
MAS should jailed the relationship managers who sold these products if they are found guilty of fraud. In a financial market like SG, there is no place for such greedy, pathethic and selfish financial people. They should be held responsible. The banks must also be fined and top management be fired or replaced.
It seems that Goh CT was pushing his responsibility away by saying that investors must take risk. Did he not realised that as chairman of MAS, he should ensure that all high risk products are not suitable for common citizen. And as you know when you want to import certain products, you have to send your products to AVA for testing to ensure that these are fit for consumption. Likewise MAS and the FI should do the same by scrutinising the products suitability.
MAS and the banks are socially and morally responsible for our loss of blood money and should ensure that the banks to compensate us. But Goh CT is standing behind to enjoy our fight with the FI, gleefully. To him, what we lost is peanut, oooh, no peanut powder. His wife also claimed “$600K is peanut” .Come on GohTK, plse help us particularly the old and the retirees. They may commit suicide over their loss. Goh TK came from poor family and should know the feelings…….Cast your votes for oppositions next if things dont happen
#27, Ah Siao,
This incident clearly shows the lack of leadership of the opposition party.
They cannot even organise such a simple event and need Mr Tan (a retiree) to do it.
Think about it. When it comes to macro-level issues, you think your opposition can make it?
The next election, the current batch of opposition and the opposition party will not get my vote. They have disqualified themselves by default.
If they dare to complain about unfair playing ground and whatever, I have to tell them – You had your chance to show leadership. You didn’t. So, I will choose between the lesser of the two evils.
Eric,
You should have cast your vote for check and balance in the last election regardless of the outcome.
Now that things have happened, i felt sad for all the old folks who had worked their life for Singapore and at the end got nothing. This is a real lesson for all of us that monoploy in politics is a bad bad choice for Singaporeans. The US gov is two party system, look at how hard they senators and rep fight for packages to help the needy. How the Democrat lambast the white house over de-regulation of wall street that resulted in sub-prime. The present bush administration is by far the worse in US. They started IRAQ War, they de-regulate wall street, they encourage deficit spending and many more. Our gahmen loves this BUSH administration very much, look what happen now? Where is our golden years as promised? Why is our MM still crapping in India when the time like these he could have come out and say a few golden words? I doubt MAS will do any thing more concrete or the banks will compensate well. Remember all the tons and tons of conflict of interests that in the first place shouldn’t be there. Singaporeans are going to make to swallow hard this coming years.
FG
What if this excuse to save the banks?
What if they say given the financial boo boo of the world, if banks suffer more losses by returning to investors their hardearned money , more will suffer as banks collapse?
I remember a bombastic said that if companies leave here, you lose more!
28)one day, go protest at DBS, gather as many people as possible, and bring some placards. But don’t assign any leader among you, bcos they try to deal with leader. Don’t be afraid if police come, they won’t dare to fire at u. Try to invite media as well. DBS and PAP will definitely feel the pressure.
There is a bigger picture here that all of you may do well to consider; who picks up the tab should gahmen decide to step in and help all these investors? Do you think the banks alone can underwrite all these losses? You and me lah, the taxpayer. Aha now it doesn’t sound so attractive to be hero right?
The second question is how does that serve the interest of the banking industry in the long run? You know what, I have always been a free market guy, that means, I have always believed if banks screw up, they will simply have to go under like any other business and they shouldn’t expect any form of assistance from governments.
Always remember the root cause for this debacle is greed, greed on the part of merchant bankers and also to a certain extent greed on the part of investors (though they may wish to color it this time); you can say whatever you want but the question is how do you effective curb this sort of greed, do you reward people for their mistakes by bailing them out or do you just consider it grist to the mill?
I say let the market decide. What has happened is indeed sad, no one I think wants to see retirees suffering/ They have worked hard and they deserve to retire in dignity. No one disagrees with that. I think we can all relate to that social picture, but if the price of making things right means that the tax payer has to pick up the tab, then I don’t think that is a very intelligent way to make the world a better place, we might as well go back to communism then.
SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
after hearing GCT, u still think he will do something? Read in-between, he’s asking us to go fly kite i think and stop bothering him. he’s saying u r stupid and greedy, so blame yrself. Opposition shld not get involved. Why? Just check who runs mas, who runs the banks, who r the biggest shareholders….all from the same camp. So who shld solve the problem, otherwise why shld they be paid the world highest salary. even i nus graduate also don’t understand the risks and prospectus and thot the investment is about the top grade bonds, how can the uncle and aunites? be fair to us. if this is not handle properly, my guess is the next election result will show. at least the FI should compensate a certain amt, to ask them to compensate the full amt is not possible.
#41,
Clearly your Free Market Theory of Letting Banks failed should they screwed up is not working in US and many other countries. Govt bailout for Banks too big to fail is happening and the tab is passed to the taxpayers.
Likewise, if our local banks need to foot the bill and they can’t, the govt will need to do that at the expense of the taxpayers.
There is no perfect solution and some investors will be left out of the solution. If I had a choice, I might suggest not compensating to those below 45years old as they still have enough working years left to compensate for the loss.
But compensation to elderly who have lost their life savings in there and they are the ones who cannot work to accumulate that amount. If it means taxpayers footing the bill, I say Go Ahead.
It might not be you this time round, but it might jolly well be the next time round.
I know this is not a long-term solution. But this is your immediate concerns – solve the retirees problem. Then start looking at the long-term solution of regulating the financial institutions and products.
This is a fine showcase of MAS to the world, especially so when compared to Hong Kong whose citizens are also suffering under the same predicament.
Gok Chok Tong is just speaking without knowing the context. I’m disappointed that he didn’t do anything concrete after that.
It’s very clear the lack of effectiveness of these local institution.
“This incident clearly shows the lack of leadership of the opposition party.”
What do you expect them to say and act ? They are powerless to do so as we see all along. All changes in the hand of government. The opp party is not the one who regulate the market, not the one who approve the mini-bond etc…
How many members in opp party are experts and dealing with financial line ?
And compare that to governement, with tons scholars and this is not even speaking of super-duper- financial talents in Temasek Holding that end up in make financial billions dollars blunder to whose know where.
If these huge ruling party clowns can’t even address and resolve the issue, what can miniscule opposition party do ?
Let’s us sing Mee Siam Mai Hum together to the ruling party.
“Did he not realised that as chairman of MAS”
Woody Pecker is the chairman of MAS and yet dare to make his stupid remark. Conflict of interest. Woody , how much are you been paid as chairman of MAS ?
Maybe his wife should come of this saga and proclaim “all this is just peanut”
singaporedaddy,
It doesn’t seems right to bail our these investors with tax payer’s money but these are singaporeans we should help. The bloody gahmen can use our hard earned money to bail out US banks e.g Merril Lynch, UBS and citibank why not help local singaporeans? Are we secondary class to US banks? The cost of compensation will not even surpass the money we throw at these banks. At most $0.5B, while our total investments in these banks exceed $18B. We should understand that the banks had to foot the bill first and not the gahmen. Should the banks not do their job as a protector of investor’s assets then what is? Free market in US is no more, all investment banks have disappeared. The market is in a frenzy getting liquidity and no banks are lending, even getting a loan is extremely difficult. What free market are you still clinging on? Market determine? When nobody is interested in that piece of loan you have, is all fire sale by the banks. That’s how Lehman, WMU, Wachovia, Merril Lynch(sold off to BOA for 50B), Country Wide and many more failed. AIG has infact failed by being taken over by the US government. Those who hold these AIG policies should be more concerned that if the insurance unit is sold off to pare debt back to US gov will the policy holders be disadvantaged.
FG
Someone commit suicide by jumping down at Yishun MRT train in 11Oct
The following blog explain the occurence first hand.
Chinese
http://maxayam.blogspot.com/2008/10/accident-at-yishun-mrt-station.html
After google language translation to English
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmaxayam.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F10%2Faccident-at-yishun-mrt-station.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en
Is this something to do with recession or this mini-bond thingy ?
Someone commit suicide by jumping down at Yishun MRT train in 11Oct
The following blog explain the occurence first hand.
Chinese
“http://maxayam.blogspot.com/2008/10/accident-at-yishun-mrt-station.html”
After google language translation to English
“http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmaxayam.blogspot.com%2F2008%2F10%2Faccident-at-yishun-mrt-station.html&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=zh-CN&tl=en”
Remove the double quote
Is this something to do with recession or this mini-bond thingy ?
Daniel.
Don’t link the two events especially if there’s no proof supporting otherwise. People might get the wrong idea. And people always get the wrong idea.
Always post with the context, in this case, there’s none.
Was GCT the one who introduced the CPF investment scheme and got many slaughtered before (token) financial education for the masses was introduced?
9) SevenEleven on October 12th, 2008 1.55 pm
My feelings precisely.
Maybe to singaporeans hikes like 22% on electricity and $10 on telephone are too peanutty to rich singaporeans that they bo chap about things that don’t hurt their pocket much. But when it comes to hundred of thousands or millions, they wake up and hope the nation will help them. the people also need their help on voicing concerns about 22% hike on electricity when oil is so much cheaper now by a whopping 33% drop in oil price.
Now , maybe just maybe, these people are beginning to wake up to the idea that we need to have a culture of voicing up to help people. Now these people hope for people to voice up for them.
sigh…
I am impressed by our ST reporter which wrote that “more than 500″ attended the Hong Lim gathering.
Very creative and believable reporters indeed.
#45 Daniel,
So, by your logic, it means Mr Tan should also not do anything since he is powerless? Let’s just leave it to the Government?
Com’on, even if opposition is powerless, they can still show some leadership. Mr Tan don’t even have any party support and he can start something of this scale.
Clearly, this shows that OUR OPPOSITION IS REALLY NOT UP TO THE CHALLENGE.
Close down your DBS/POSB Accounts
After all, we (most of us) elected them into office – so we must have faith in them – that they will act in our best interests. – Rushking (#12)
Most Singaporeans had a GRC walkover in their constitutency during the last General Election. They never voted for PAP. Which planet are you from? The PAP government has been ignoring us for years because they think they know better. From as early as 1969, PAP has already started not listen to public voices. The PAP government passed the Employment Act in 1969 which. T
I don’t believe that with all the noise and complaints, the govt would just ignore us and do nothing. – Rushking (#12)
Noise and complaints are not enough. Take action. Join the small group of protestors at the DBS Sit-In. Or even better, transfer all your funds from DBS/POSB to another local bank.
Why keep your money in the very same bank that had cheated you or your associates? Transferring your funds out from DBS/POSB to another bank is rational / pragmatic choice.
I shifted all my money to Maybank which gives a 0.5% interest higher than DBS for a normal bank account. – Fever Guy (#34)
You even get better interest rate than DBS/POSB. So why not?
Hi Fever Guy #47
“It doesn’t seems right to bail our these investors with tax payer’s money but these are singaporeans we should help.”
I think the real issue here is what is the cost of that “help?” Lets be clear on a few points, I am a taxpayer and so are some of you and even those of you who aren’t paying tax now will eventually have to do so.
So if the cost of that “help” takes the form of increasing the tax of lets say some factory technician who works in Boon Lay, then I say it’s a lousy cost – because I can say that technician was just minding his own business and turning the wheel of life in one quiet corner of Singapore, so why should his tax dollars be used to bail out someone who thought he could ace out on the S&P?
See my point and that is really what the whole issue is all about when we talk about the cost of “help.”
So if you look at these massive bailouts in the US for AIG and Freddie/Fannie as you highlighted, what you FAILED to mentioned there was the cost of “help” to the American tax payer i.e how most ordinary hard working Americans dont see why their tax dollars should even be used to bail out greedy bankers who got themselves into such a fix of their own making.
Now the question is really this, do you as a taxpayer want to see your tax dollar used in that sort of wasteful way?
The way I see it, I am always thinking about the little Joe who has to work a seven day shift and I don’t ever want to see him get taxed one cent more on the account of people who simply didn’t even bother to do their due diligence when they decided to sign on the dotted line.
I know many hundreds of people were affected by this, but I don’t think its fair on millions of Singaporeans and residents either, especially, if they have to bear that cost of “help” on the account of a few.
Thanks.
SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
“So, by your logic, it means Mr Tan should also not do anything since he is powerless? Let’s just leave it to the Government?”
Mr Tan is not from opp party. And I don’t think he want to associate with any opp party. He has once explained why he don’t want to be president too.
If opp parties is not as knowledgable as Mr Tan in area of financial crisis or action then they shold just keep silence and not worsen thing least the government will just accuse the opp party of not offering solution and understanding the problem but just want score political point. Isn’t this happen before ?
It also give the government a excuse for distraction of main issue. Remember the election saga when instead of concentrating on citizen’s need, the focus suddenly become integrity of opp party ?
It obviously this thing happens is because the government’s decision of making Singapore a financial hub at all cost and in shortest time possible, to the point of closing one eyes and over-relaxing regulation. Shortcut this and that, not building the sound fundamental, so long as money is transferred to the economy to boost the GDP and to make Singapore look good (isn’t minister’s KPI pegg to all these thing ?). Anything to make financial hub look good with image but without substance. (Am I surprised that Singapore is the first of Asian country to hit recession ?)
The government is the best position to understand all these given that they are the one approve and make the decision of financial products and services. Now I see the government try to distance themselve from all these issues as Lucky Tan indicates. I applaud Mr Tan for knowledge and effort. He is former CEO of NTUC Income, and therefore understand the issue of financial industry.The government will probably think it is more safe to use Mr Tan than opp party, after all Mr Tan is once a government guy, and therefore will resolve issue more amicably with the gov.
So we should ask where is those government decision-makers behind those products ? Where and who perform the check and balance ?
So should opp party keep quiet ? Not unless they understand the situation well enough and they can confidently debate the issues. If they can’t even understand the situation now, how can they act ?
#34 Dear Fever Guy
You may not know, May-Bank(MB) is one of the bigger, if not the biggest Mini-Bomb(MB) maker.
Be careful, don’t get conned when your +0.5 % FD mature!!
MB is not a angel either.
Don’t believe, go and find out and back to thank me.
Close down your DBS/POSB Accounts
This is an extension to #53
After all, we (most of us) elected them into office – so we must have faith in them – that they will act in our best interests. - Rushking (#12)
Most Singaporeans had a GRC walkover in their constitutency during the last General Election. They never voted for PAP. Which planet are you from? The PAP government has been ignoring us for years because they think they know better.
From as early as 1968, PAP has already started not listen to public voices. Let´s walk down memory lane into Singapore´s trade union history to further elaborate my points.
The PAP government passed the Employment Act in 1968 which at that time increased standard weekly working hours from 39 to 44; cut number of public holidays from 15 to 11 per year, decreased number of rest days, days of sick leave and days of paid annual leave; limited the amount of bonus payout for workers; and curtailed retrenchment benefits for workers.
PAP´s response to Unionś opposition to the Employment Act was two-fold. PAP first amended the Industrial Relations Act to hand over the right to hire, fire, promote, transfer and retrench workers without union interference to Management. This was followed by sending Devan Nair to take over NTUC and quiver dissident voices in NTUC. All this happened in 1968.
If Singaporeans don´t take action to keep PAP in check, Singaporeans will definitely have no future in Singapore. Is it hardly a wonder that so many Singaporeans now choose to emigrate while an increasing number who work abroad choose to reject their citizenship?
The HKMA issued this statement on the 12th. Oct 2008.
“Banks or their staff found to have misled customers may be fined or censured or may have their business licences suspended.”
MAS should come out to say something on the same vein that any RMs or financial consultants who flouted Section 27 of the FAA will be punished. This should send
a strong message to the financial industry salespeople not to mess around with the section 27 and with consumers’ hard earned money.
Perhaps cut off a few heads and hang them at Ngee Ann City and Raffles Place .
This will also remind that insurance agents are included and section 27 will be their noose too especially the mdrt, cot and tot qualifiers.
zhummmeng,
It’s quite a difference the way the S’pore central bank (MAS) and the HK’s central bank handled the whole situation.
S’pore’s MAS basically left the investors to the “sharks” – even giving the banks the option to appoint their own “independent” investigators. MAS had to backtracked when people criticised them for it.
In short, the MAS, under an ex-PM, is woefully inept in handling this issue.
Wonder why we’re paying them millions, huh?
Andrew
Correction to my earlier post (#4):
The crap reply to Lily Neo was given spewed by Mrs Yu-Foo Yee Shoon on the issue of aid for Public Assistance recepients. ‘You want to cover up to 30 per cent, 40 per cent or 50 per cent?’ Honest mistake.
“S’pore’s MAS basically left the investors to the “sharks” – even giving the banks the option to appoint their own “independent” investigators. ”
Remember Mas Selamat’s case. The so-called Independent Committee with all pro-gov members. Look like “conflict of interest” is never in the elite’s dictionary, or is it been censored ?
“In short, the MAS, under an ex-PM, is woefully inept in handling this issue.”
Now we know why pinkish clown want to step down. The story finally unfolded and we thought GST explanation is the only pertinent issue, look like something even bigger than that.
Sorry, Tharman, you are screwed. Since you are PM now, can you give us a account of Singapore’s finance health ? No, not paper money that only validated by uncredible’s mouth but Real CASH AND ASSET account.
to our dear pap:
i had enough of these nosense crap by the pap. whenever u say u want to help us (eg ease the traffic, better public transport, better education system etc etc), u juz increase the price. so please don’t help us next time cos i also can be minister myself
from the stupid responses from various recent saga EITHER show how alienated our ‘first class’ govt is from the people OR they juz simply think that all singaporean are plain stupid. to quote 3 key eg below
1) pm lee & various ministers have been warning us recently regarding the economic slowdowns & more retrenchements are expected.
c’mon, we think we cannot see it for ourselves? we do not need to pay millions dollars to you to hear these plain obvious remarks.
we want your propose & specific soultions! whenever economy is doing well, you claim credit. when economy is doing badly, you blame other countries
2) response from the recent hike in electricity, they clim that it was not due to f1 race as various racing teams brought their generators. then who power up the extra street & buildings lights to make them extra bright? you mean the racing teams also brought in the generators to power up these? c’mon please think of a more convincing lie or else how can we continue to pay you more than world class pay?
3) pm lee in one of the earlier national speech, presumably too eager to show how ‘close’ as he was to heartlander, cited ‘mee siam my hum (no cockle)’. i almost fainted on spots. since when mee siam got hum? you have been eating too much palace food all these while! so please do your homework next time & cook out a better lie….
anyway, i am migrating with my family in a month time. if you still think that pap can be trusted, then go & eat your mee siam ‘my hum’….haha
I, a robbery victim ran to the Police stAtion for helP.
The Policeman says why come to me, go to the day-light-robbers. They pay for a private investigator (PI), not see you but check the robber’s report. If the robbers admit that they do rob yout. I will fine them.
The day-light-robber is laughting at the bank. The policemen is getting their pay check. It really drive me NuT. .
No one knows what to do. Whole nations, at least the entire world of finance and investment, are presently watching the unraveling of money—the “only critical ingredient of life!” No one knows what to do. Politicians are acting without integrity—but that is not new. Large banks are having to assert their liquidity, and the louder the assertions, the harder it is to believe them! – Dr. Ramesh Richard quote-unqoute. Psalms 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. Centre Verse Of The Bible
666 and No-One Could Buy or Sell!
He [the Beast] exerts all the power and right of control . . .
He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no-one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.
This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666. [Revelation 13:12, 16-18]
Preparing the Stage For End Time Events! Time to look things from a very very long perspective and investment. Think Eternal!
First, I’d like to congratulate Kin Lian for his consuming passion and leadership in this diabolical issue that plagued the lifeblood of innocent victims, particularly the illiterate, the less educated, the ordinary citizen, the retirees and even the so-called investment gurus.
It’s time not to finger-point, blame, digress and be overly rhetoric. It’s time to ACT and stay focussed on CONCERTED ACTION and RESULTS.
What Kin Lian has spoken and proposed is in the right direction for all victims of such financial scandals of enormous magnitude that hit SIN, supposedly a top financial hub in Asia and around the globe with top global financial talents and experts.
I would like to add that in the event of CLASS ACTION, the victims should engage the best and most well-known legal firm in SIN and/or in the region and beyond, to see concrete results in the context in SIN. None other will do the job.
MAS regulatory and supervisory controls and mechanisms should be revamped and strengthened to meet the challenges posed by globalised financial systems and markets. Even the US financial system is not immuned to frauds, manipulations, misrepresentations and loopholes that brought about the world’s worst financial tsunami of unprecedented proportions in our 21st century civilization.
How the MAS and its enforcement arm, CAD and other related regulatory authorities resolve this financial heist will speak volumes for SIN’s multi-million dollar leadership and its integrity.
All the ministers should sacfrice 9/10 of their pays for one year to help the bondholders.
Anyway, their 1/10 of their pay and allowance is much more that the life-savings of many affected.
Hope to have more such meetings
# 53) New pepper on October 12th, 2008 9.39 pm I am impressed by our ST reporter which wrote that “more than 500″ attended the Hong Lim gathering.
Hats off to the ST photographer…..who almost alreadys capture thing in a unique angle…you are the best
» Who Should Pay? For Want of a Better Title
[...] coverage of Hong Lim Park Protest by [...]
In Tan K L’s blog, Maybank toxic investments have the most number of petitioners. Other banks and investment houses, as well as brokers are also guilty of selling such high risk products.
So why are we targetting only DBS – POSB? Is it because it is the closest to the government? Are we letting our sentiments cloud our judgement?
All of them should be targetted, including the relative inaction by MAS.
RM’s are ( at least most of them ) also simple people like us, trying to earn a living. Their top people put pressure on them to push such products. Many too are suffering and perhaps even more depressed than the investors.
We should target the top people.
This is also a good opportunity for the Opposition Parties to show the importance of having a credible opposition in the government.
It is also an opportunity for the new MPs to show that they can go through the trial by fire, in carrying out their duties as representatives of the people’s voice.
However, apart from Tan K L and the unfortunate investors’ voices, the silence is deafening!
Incidentally, I almost bought the Citrine Notes from Merryl Lynch. I still have the prospectus, which even with a degree in English language, I simply could not understand!
Gerald Giam says that Opposition should speak up for investors. Maybe so. But, really, the PAP lawmakers are the ones who must do so.
Singaporeans should also see that the opposition, namely, SDP that has been pushing for transparency and accountability by the authorities. In addition they have been the party that has been advocating for freedom of expression and assembly. Without these, you have a govt that is not responsive to the citizenry. That is why you have Goh Chok Tong saying “that’s life” and then to rub salt into our wounds by saying that we should have left our $$ in CPF. What a load of crap coming from a senior statesman. But look at Hong Kong. The investors are getting their money back and they are being helped by the lawmakers!
Singaporeans should really wake up and see that democracy, which leads to a more responsive govt, freedom of speech and assembly are important. This unfortunate episode has amply demonstrated this.
@ sobri,
It is even more important for the PAP MPs to speak up for the people. The majority of citizens gave them 82 seats in parliament and at this moment not one has spoken out. Not joking on this, right ?
This is proof to the people that we need a more balance representation.
At this moment Tan Kin Lian can do with some help from those who hold pro govt positions, since the PAP have been indifferent.
lim, give your legal input on seeking redress or whatever options.
smallvoice585, educate these investors on the big political picture and why this govt cannot be faulted.
newold, give these investors the assurance that this govt is “no horse run”, so nothing to worry.
Where is MM, so quiet now, his son worse, dare not speak a word, all push to peanut Goh. Hmm, Pap, Pap… your days are numbered.
Singapore who is always boasting of being no. 1 in everything is also the first in asia to rollover without even trying to work out a solution to this global crisis while the rest of the world is.
Glad to see its true to its nature.
Do You know the Definition of Transparency ?
Hi,
wallstreet web dictionary provides this definition of Transparency :
transparency = The FULL, accurate, and timely disclosure of information.
Based on above definition, why is the world Transparency used to describe a company that does not disclose fully ? By definition, it should be ALL or NOTHING. 1 or 0 and nothing in-between. Either a company is Transparent (i.e FULLy transparent) or it is not. It would be wrong to describe a company as x % transparent. There is no such thing! correct me if i wrong.
I believe it sounds nice to investors when a company is described as Transparent. But my concern is the proper usage of the word.
My understanding is there is no such thing as how many percent Transparent. A company can only be described as Transparent when it provides Full Disclosure, by definition.
Thus, I am suggesting, for fairness and appropriateness, another word should be used to describe so-called , eg. , ‘70% transparent’ companies.
What say you?
regards
Propagada
Hearing the interviews, I feel so sad that these retired people have been conned by the banks.
MAS has failed these people and Goh Chok Tong has rubbed salt.
PTC has failed and we have poor transport rides.
EMA has written to ST to explain, but we still do not know if we pay tariffs based on oil prices, who makes money – the indonesians who sells us gas, or Singapore Power who makes billions of profit last year.
They will not adjust the tariffs – so that govt do not go broke to subsidies us as shown to be the case in Malaysia – ??!!??
Or so that Singapore power will not make lesser profits?
Do we all need to go to Hong Lim when we all see the power bills this October, or will EMA do something now to adjust the expectaitons of people and allow Singapore Power to earn lesser off its citizens?
Sometimes PTC / MAS can bluff us some time, but the government cannot expect to bluff us all the time.
Sympathy to investors who lost!!! They ought to act like an investors and take things in their stride! Somewhat a ’selfish’ group I would say! They would have kept quiet if reaping in profits and now running with tails in between their legs..crying foul and seeking help! NO BAIL OUT!
Arrest your losses and readdress your next move………. making and loosing is part & parcel of all investments — many out there who have made and lost thru inverstments and most hurtful for those who used their CPF!!! One can not learn ‘experience’ but can only go thru one and this is a learning exeperience for many!!!
Singaporeans united when comes to $$ matters or those who are affected in the Lehman Bros minibond saga……
The large turnout at Hong Lim is an “eye-opener” especially it has since been so long that we see any form of rally in Singapore……
I sure hope to see more of such close to heart topic been discussed at Hong Lim that are chair by respectable speaker who can pack a punch to help the more “hand-tied” Singaporean who are not so well versed with the business law or legislation law.
Mr. Tan Kin Lian, I salute you!
We need to bluntly and honestly ask ourselves
will business be protected vs will these investors be protected more?
is sg like HK ?
no idea der.
No one knows how long the valuations or investigations will take. These investors will just have to wait for the outcome.
#74, “Gerald Giam says that Opposition should speak up for investors. Maybe so. But, really, the PAP lawmakers are the ones who must do so.”
We know that PAP lawmakers are the one who have the power to move things.
However, what we want is that Opposition demonstrate leadership and show that they care for their own.
So, Why is MR TAN , an independent doing this? It is because he cares enough to stand up and take leadership. Even THE ONLINE CITIZEN group of independents.
So, what does that says about your very organised opposition teams? They are utterly useless. They do not have leadership capabilities.
chua mui mui of the moo moo land hoong
There is conspire that says a new strategy is in motion ……cannot say too…muchie….Opposition may …..no…..longer…
would it be unfair to say that Majority Singaporeans do not Voice Up? And do not usually Voice Up for the those facing hardship like hikes?
If not unfair to say that, then do these investors now complaining deserve someone to Voice Up for them?
I like the whole country to think about Community Spirit and not just only for yourself like when you lose your money then only you voice up. We need a national level education to wake up all singaporeans to teach them that there should be a Mature Culture of Speaking Up on ALL Social issues affecting not just one person but ALL the middleclass and lower class singaporeans.
When they need someone to Voice Up for them, were they not grateful that Mr Tan was there FREE of Charge for them?
Singaporeans, Please wake up for your own salvation.
Mee Siam Kum Pinkie n Swee Swee Hum Kangaroo eat grass hoot lee ter
An Extremely Pragmatic society sometimes may think of SELF only or SELF 1st.
When this happens, neigbors don’t speak to one another, people do not voice up on the plight of the poor or suffering and lower and middle class.
When GREED is thought as right and Money is thought as purpose and meaning of life, when you Serve your boss to serve yourself more so than to serve your other people, then you are a Kang. In tough times, can you fight for the needy or just cover own backside?
At times, we need to do the right thing and not always only do things for ownself only. We need to contribute to society by SPEAKING Up for the less fortunate, the needy and the middle and lower class. At times, we need to do our ‘NS’ by focussing more on the Ideals and Noble acts.
When you need help, then only more people will help you.
I agree that people should wake up their ideas!
Lets hope in future these people and all the people do not have to worry about their OTHER LIFE SAVINGS if you know wtf i mean?
We cannot tell what will happen in future but we better have a culture of socially conscious talents willing to step up and Voice Up for people who cannot access their Life Time Savings.
Imagine, if these investors need money badly after the loss, would it be of great help if they can tap on their OTHER SAVINGS frozen up somewhere?
But who will voice up for them when most people do not even voice up at all ?
TW and basically any other 1st world democracies have very established Voice-Up Culture with many talents voicing up for them and they have many alternative voice TV stations that air different opinions unlike ….any issue, you can bet there are talents who step up and focus and pursue on the issue for the people, demanding answers, helping the weak and meek and powerless question what needs to be questioned.
Alas, Dr chee and sis is said by the press to be sued a whopping $610K. I wonder what message this news has to send to people? What a timing….
Guess why ?
Just to clarify on the above a bit more :
“We cannot tell what will happen in future but we better have a culture of socially conscious talents willing to step up and Voice Up for people who cannot access their Life Time Savings.
”
I mean IF there is a similar problem like the current investment boo boo were to ever happen again in future like when some people about to retire. ;)
88) see Pee and then F-off on October 13th, 2008 9.52 pm
Alas, Dr chee and sis is said by the press to be sued a whopping $610K. I wonder what message this news has to send to people? What a timing….
Obviously everyone of us could have guess what would happen to Dr Chee and his sis. It’s nothing new here in Sg. Not that they are the first opp members being sued for defamation, there are already a string of such similar cases before. As long as the ruling party feels its a thread to them, this kind of scenerio will repeat on till no one dare to defy them. Sure the accumulated total sum awarded in all these defamation thingy till today can really buy down a block of condos in sg. Wonder who’s the next opp. contributor be.
tiredsingaporean (#90),
The road ahead is tough but if we stop fighting for our rights, it is inevitable that all our rights will be taken away from us.
V S RAAJ,
Rather than just blame Singapore investor, why not ask yourself if there is something wrong with the practice of Singapore bank that put misleading information and half-truth onto financial product and let it sell by people who lack the understanding of the product to the public.
If there is nothing wrong, I urge the DBS in Hong Kong not to compensate these so called Hong Kong investor then. The very fact that DBS compensate HK investors entirely as they afraid that HK will suspend DBS license speak of the fact itself. Given that DBS has Temasek stakeholder and ministers in charge, why did DBS not resort to lawsuit to settle the problem after all HOng Kong investors must be “stupid” to buy these investment product from DBS without understanding the product they buying, and that it should be none of the DBS problem.
So obviously there are more than meet these eyes than to blame investors for been greedy. I concur with Mr Tan that there is something wrong with financial investment practice of selling financial product.
Just because arrogant Singapore GLCs managed to hookwink its way in Singapore doesn’t mean they will be successful in other country like Thailand, Australia, Hong Kong with strong human right and democracy.
oh, only when the fire start burning yr house then u start to shout for help. other time when others are crying for help , u just lock yr door and sleep comfortablly in yr cosy home. go to the park now & shout all u want for yr money cos i will be laughing behind the trees . to each his own. relax & trust the authority to help u. thanks for the faith u have for these money grabbing monster, now look forward for them to assist u in getting yr saving back. fark hope……..
Guys, Guys, Guys
We need to maintain group unity against DBS andl MAS.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporebusinessnews/view/382531/1/.html
DBS has started a divide-and-conquer strategy against the collective efforts of retail investors.
I’m utterly disappointed with SM Goh’s comment on the losses of Lehman Brothers related credit linked notes that poor investors had to bear the consequence of inadequate supervision on financial products and inappropriate financial advisory practices. As the chairperson of MAS, he is in conflict by merely dismissing that those investors had to take high risks for high return, not knowing that many of them had only very average return from those investments. This is the most insensitive comment I’ve ever heard from SM.
When all of us hear about very wise advices published in the media about pitfalls of such high risks investments, I also want to point out that the same group of people created misleading information about these products when minibond was first launched locally in 2006.
http://chuamengteck.blogspot.com/2008/10/educating-retail-investors-on-caveat.html
My only conclusion is everything is somehow coordinated in this country whenever something is in the spotlight. When it is still good, people such up to it (even when they know nuts!). When it turns bad, everyone starts to spit on it. I hope the media can have some spine of their own and not acting like the tongues of parties with vested interests. For example, making mends by reporting how responsible the bank relation officers are and how professional they are… (and making those interviews sound so clinical). The fact is no man on the street is going to believe what bank relation officers say these days after many bad experiences. Hopefully this memory stays with people.
“DBS has started a divide-and-conquer strategy against the collective efforts of retail investors.”
“DBS has said it would take responsibility if customers are able to give evidence of mis-selling in relation to products affected by the collapse of Lehman Brothers.”
I find that ridiculous. Why not DBS try it in Hong Kong if they insist that there is no wrong doing ? Why even give HK investors the full return then, cannot case-by-case basis with HK mah ? Singaporean so good to bully compare to foreigner ?
Are they now pushing the responsibility back to the agent that sell the product to the customer. So what will happen to those agent then ? Fire ? So either the agent get screw or the customer get crew ?
It reminds me of Mas Selamat’s saga. Could we recall then that leadership is not to blame but the guards who guard Selamat after all it is the guard’s negligence nothing with WongCan’tSing. Did we see the same pattern happening now ?
Do we need to put another so-called Independent Committee of Enquiry ?
“The valuation is determined by the market and DBS has warned that some customers could lose their entire investment.”
Oh yeah… let it happen to HK first before replying to Singapore investor then. Don’t give double standard.
Suggest people wait and see what they do in Hong Kong first. Don’t be foolish to accept the condition in Singapore without monitoring Hong Kong.
Base on what ground do they give Hong Kong’s privilege ?
“#71: Hats off to the ST photographer…..who almost alreadys capture thing in a unique angle…you are the best”
My first reaction also… especially when compared to the photo in the Chinese papers!
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/382603/1/.html
CNA says only 100 people turned up : ) TOC report 1000
So who is exaggerating ? : )
Let us keep on asking important questions, if MAS refuses to act.
Let us continue to ask – why are electricity prices charged at oil tariffs instead of gas prices – is it the cost paid to Indonesia gas producers, or is it to enrich Singapore powers.
Let us hope EMAS change the pricing structure of our electricity tariffs, before citizens find a need to convene at Hong Lim again end of this month with their power bills, , if TOC members wish to arrange this again.
I will go!
“Update: TOC has been informed that some investors are planning a sit-in protest at DBS’ Shenton Way office building this Wednesday at 10am.”
The Wednesday sit-in is illegal, according to the police advisory reported by CNA below.
“Police urge public to air grievances in lawful manner
By Margaret Perry, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 14 October 2008 0118 hrs
SINGAPORE: Singapore police have advised the public to air their grievances in a lawful manner such as at Speakers’ Corner or to apply for an assembly permit if they want to use an indoor venue.
In a statement, police reminded the public that a demonstration in a public place without prior approval from the authorities may be deemed to be an illegal assembly.
The police advisory was in response to media queries following a DBS statement on Monday about its High Notes 5 and Constellation Series restructured products.
Over the weekend, hundreds turned up at the Speakers’ Corner at Hong Lim Park to voice their concerns over the current financial turmoil. – CNA/d”
Upset investors turn up at Speakers’ Corner
By Imelda Saad, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 11 October 2008 2310 hrs
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/382114/1/.html
SINGAPORE: More than 1,000 people, who lost hard-earned savings investing in structured products like Lehman Minibonds and DBS High Notes, turned up at the Speakers’ Corner on Saturday evening.
Upset investors turn up at Speakers’ Corner
By Imelda Saad, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 11 October 2008 2310 hrs
SINGAPORE: More than 1,000 people, who lost hard-earned savings investing in structured products like Lehman Minibonds and DBS High Notes, turned up at the Speakers’ Corner on Saturday evening.
+++++++++++++++++++
Police urge public to air grievances in lawful manner
By Margaret Perry, Channel NewsAsia | Posted: 14 October 2008 0118 hrs
SINGAPORE: Singapore police have advised the public to air their grievances in a lawful manner such as at Speakers’ Corner or to apply for an assembly permit if they want to use an indoor venue.
In a statement, police reminded the public that a demonstration in a public place without prior approval from the authorities may be deemed to be an illegal assembly.
The police advisory was in response to media queries following a DBS statement on Monday about its High Notes 5 and Constellation Series restructured products.
Over the weekend, hundreds turned up at the Speakers’ Corner at Hong Lim Park to voice their concerns over the current financial turmoil. – CNA/de
+++++++++++++++++++
The most funny thing is in the report “Police urge public to air grievances in lawful manner”, is that the photo used was about another event at Speakers’ Corner some weeks ago. Here is the caption of the photo:
Some 100 people turn up at the Speakers’ Corner to hear a debate on the public transport system
No wonder post 98 asked the question. What is CNA doing?
sarek_home (#101),
It is extremely stupid to continue to keep your money in the very same bank that you had perceived to cheat you, your friends and/or your family. Withdrawing your funds from DBS/POSB may even get you a better deal elsewhere in Singapore. For example, Maybank charges 0.5% interest higher for their current accounts.
So why not turn go to DBS Shenton Way tomorrow 10am to withdraw your money and close down your DBS/POSB bank account? Because your relationship with the bank is creditor-debtor, it is not illegal at all to withdraw your money. We don´t have to protest against DBS and MAS in the form of sit-in. We can protest in spirit by taking back our monies which have not been lost! This, however, is not illegal.
“SINGAPORE: Singapore police have advised the public to air their grievances in a lawful manner such as at Speakers’ Corner or to apply for an assembly permit if they want to use an indoor venue.”
Anyone or lawyer here who can advise, is it alright for all 1000 people (hey they are customers right) to go into the bank for some noisy consultation (same as airing grievances lah) all together at the same time.
Must air grievances in lawful manner lah. Must air carefully orelse not only lose money, you may get some free & lawful 5-star accomodation and delicious à la carte meals which shall compensate your pain for losing money.
Hundred = 100
Hundreds = 200 to 900, or 10 hundreds = 1000
I was there. Who knows how many people were there? My personal estimate was about 1000, plus or minus, though I didn’t actually count every single head there, and I doubt anyone else did either. People were also coming and going throughout. And would you count those seating at the edge watching? Or those watching from the shelter of the MRT station? Those lurking on the streets outside away from the main crowd, but watching nevertheless?
1. Reuters said the number is 600
http://in.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idINIndia-35909820081011
2. Yahoo/AFP said the number is 600
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20081011/bs_afp/financebankingussingaporeprotest_081011143803
3. Straits Times said the number is more than 500
http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_288856.html
I was there too. Around 5.30pm the crowd already occupied almost half the entire SC and by 6.30pm there are so many people out there. Only that the portable speaker is too weak for this event. Maybe, suggest TOC should get a megasize one next time.
CNA reported 1000 leh
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/382114/1/.html
wow,so many ppl go to speakers corner …only when it happen to them then they decide to do something while all this while was “vote for PAP”….:D
hammer your feet won’t die, lightling strike your feet sure die.
Maybank and HSBC give u better interest rate for your current accounts too.
I am an investor in Lehman Minibonds. On Sep 24, I received a letter from Minibond Ltd. saying that they were substituting the underlying securities. They did not say why. The letter was dated 15 Aug, but only reached me after they filed for bankruptcy and it was not possible to redeem my notes. I wrote to MAS and asked them to assist in investigating this matter. This is the main bulk of the response I got:
___________________________________________
We note that you have copied the Note Trustee, HSBC Institutional Trust (Singapore) in this matter. The Trustee’s sole role is to be responsible for enforcing the rights of the Noteholders under the note programme in relation to any Series of Notes.
In the case of Leman Minibond Notes, HSBC Institutional Trust Services (Singapore) Limited will be best placed to answer your query. We have asked the trustee to expedite its considerations and keep the investors fully informed of their options….
____________________________________________
In case you need a translation for all those words:
2. It is not my problem it is the trustee’s problem.
3. We will ask the trustee to answer you.
They should send their staff to training to write plain English.
Independent Analyst ,
it is nothing new just like the way gov handle Mas Selamat case. Remember the case result in investigation that imply leadership is not a fault but the guard handling Mas Selamat should be blamed solely and punished.
When you give them money, it is their business, but when thing screw up and loss incur, they distance themselves immediately and push it to lowest person (if they ever be found again since most resigned), and say that it is not their fault.
For goodness’s sake, this is not a way business is conducted but only in Singapore where companies are linked with government, thing seem so different. A agent that sell product under the name of the bank is a representative of the bank, and so how can that not be bank’s problem when agent misleading the investors ?
I don’t think that hoping to get a 5% return per annum can be considered as “greedy”. That used to be the Fixed Deposit rate for goodness sake.
How can a 5% per annum return warrant a 100% loss risk?
Even buying blue chip stocks has potentially much higher return at less risk than this.
A poor MiniBomb victim,
Don worry. Is a normal bank account earning 0.5% interest and pays u monthly interest. Is not a Fixed Deposit. A FD account in maybank is even higher than 0.5%. As maybank is a Malaysia NAtional Bank i dun think it will collapsed and their exposure to sub-prime is so much lesser than DBS. They are well capitalized. The only bad thing is there ain’t many atms but that doesn’t stop me from putting my hard earned money in a safer place than DBS.
FG
Singaporedaddy,
I agreed with you that investors are held responsible for their investments. I too was tempted to buy mini-bonds when i was in queuing up to deposit money when the counter staffs recommended me to invest in mini-bonds with very high returns and low risk. That was in 2005. I told myself there is nothing in this world that gives high returns and low risk there must be a catch. I refused that offer.
Fast forward, i saw many singaporeans had their investments swallowed up in this credit crisis especially those who invested in mini-bonds. Many of them are retirees who had no knowledge of finance and are trusting. They trusted the DBS all these years. If not for the trust in local banks, nobody will dump life savings into the toxic bond if let say the bank is bank of nigeria, bank of indonesia.
These old folks are cheated of their trust and the DBS bank has failed as a financial institution to safeguard their money. The bank must compensate these retirees first and the rest of them on a reasonable terms. Singaporeans are reasonable people, they know that most investments are gone and recovery of 50-70% is deem much better than nothing.
What have the DBS proposed? Case by case basis and definitely with a confidentiality clause to divide and conquer these victims. If the Singapore gahmen has the will to help, do you think DBS can be so sloppy in their service, and MAS sitting on the fence doing minimal. MAS is a biggest joke in Singapore. They are responsible for such products to be sold, without check and balance being carry out, no public institution is safe from lax processes. Just take a look at the Prison escape, the customs flopped, the home team blunders, SAF and many more.
I hope the gahmen can come out and calm these investors and tell them that investigations and compensation will be carried out. These old folks can be suicidal when they know they will get nothing. In HK, the gov setup help lines especially for the investors who had invested in mini-bonds. How caring is the HK gov versus a heartless Singapore gahmen. Why are we a sovereign nation treating her citizens like dirt? HK is not even a sovereign country, but a Special Administrative Region of China. There is much this present gahmen must do to project her citizens that corporatism is not the current policy.
My verdict is to vote anybody other than a PAP. Some check and balance is better than none.
FG
People should name the RMs who sold them these high risk investemnents which they have no idea about.
If the sales person doesn’t fully understand them how can they be expected to give a clear understandable explation to the customers who are mainly retirees?
Its a clear case of misrepresentation by these RMs. People can be wary of these individuals if they encounter them in their visits to the bank and keep clear.if they know who they are.
#116)
“People should name the RMs who sold them these high risk investemnents which they have no idea about.
Its a clear case of misrepresentation by these RMs. People can be wary of these individuals if they encounter them in their visits to the bank and keep clear.if they know who they are.”
The point isn’t to learn to avoid those known to misrepresent their products. The point is to read the fine print, and don’t sign anything you don’t understand, or that you don’t agree with. Even if you have the names doesn’t mean that someone not on the least will not do the same to you. Try reading some terms of services / agreements from most big companies some time. The terms are so one-sided favouring the company that only an idiot or someone without a choice (like in case of essential monopoly) will sign it.
The number of people who turn out is more than 1000, a record demonstration! Show that Singaporeans will protest when their monetary interests are at stake.
A while back, SM Goh boasted that the PAP govt is not afraid of opening up the Hong Lim Park as he believes that there will not be a large demonstration due to the “good” governance of the PAP. Look’s like he will have to eat his words now.
I seriously think that Finance Ministry and MAS should hold the biggest responsibilities in allowing such a high risk product being packed as low risk mini bond and sell to the innocent retail investors. SM Goh’s comments on “that is the risk that investors looking for the high return “and “that’s life” shows that SM Goh has totally not taking his people’s interest into heart. They have forgotten that their world class salaries are from tax payee.
Very disappointment.
Don´t forget that PM Lee is the Minister of Finance while SM Goh is the Chair of MAS.
The government always emphasized that they are worried about our retirement such that it raised the CPF minimum sum over time for inflation and etc.
They should also concerned when a foreign bank issue a product that is trying to get its citizens’ millions of dollars.
Financial product advertisement in the papers, especially involving foreign banks, should be approved by the related government body (MAS). The body should ensure such advertisement stated clearly and boldly — not in fine print — and in simple layman english or chinese the risks involved.
This will provide an addition protection to the citizens.
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Believed it or not, I put my cash surplus income on a property in KL. They may be less effecient but there is still safe investment. Collecting monthly rent and depositing it in a high saving account. If one time it right, there is also the exchange rate to gain as well. We Sinkaporean had always think we are better then the Malaysian and close our eyes to the opportunities that presented itself right in front of us. Even if that opportunity jump up and bit our bums we might not see it. That really speak volume. It is time to wake up and re-evaluatuate our values and investment strategy. Our Sinkapore government run by famiLee is no more better then the Mafia( fair enough they don’t gun down people in the street) but they could put you in prison and bankcurrup up( take all your hard saving legally through their courts. Are we all moron, born to be slave and lead by our noses? And keep saying thank you, more please. When are we going to wake up from our sleep? Is 50 years long enough or we need another 50 years before we realised we had been robbed?You be the judge.
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Uncategorized - Jan 15, 2010 10:12 - 125 Comments
It is affordable – Mah Bow Tan
More In Uncategorized
- Rebutting Law Minister K Shanmugam
- Challenge of communication
- TOC & Talk Politics hold successful Year in Review forum
- “Live” from Post Museum – TOC’s Year End Review
- The Fajar Generation
Uncategorized - Jan 15, 2010 10:12 - 125 Comments
It is affordable – Mah Bow Tan
More In Uncategorized
- Rebutting Law Minister K Shanmugam
- Challenge of communication
- TOC & Talk Politics hold successful Year in Review forum
- “Live” from Post Museum – TOC’s Year End Review
- The Fajar Generation
RH:
1. Just to point out that the entire attitude and approach of the LIEgime is shameful. From the very start, it was clear that LIE KY’s crony elites would talk only to English-speaking tie-and-coat bankers elites like themselves, in airconditioned boardrooms. Unlike Hongkong, our elites refused to talk or meet with the hoi polloi, even if they have lost entire life savings due to misrepresentation of the financial products. They told the victims to talk to the banks themselves and not bother the govt!
2. Pity we cannot vote out LIE KY because he has been routinely cheating in elections, including cheating the late JBJ out of his entire Cheng San GRC wins [which JBJ won together with TANG Liang Hong and colleagues]. See my blog for eyewitnesses proofs.
3. When a crooked govt no longer needs our mandate because they rig elections, this is what happens.