thanks for elaborating. . . . and very true indeed.

what adds on to the pain is when these patients are made known of the fact that their sufferings cannot be healed and that there is only one outcome at the end of their sufferings, it plays on the mind every minute of the day. . . the only consolation medicaine can offer is, sedation, and it is very, very difficult for healthy folks to comprehend . . . . impossible is a better word …………

my last post could indeed be difficult to understand, I must be guilty for fumbling in writing the above.

Simply put, a patient may suffer more severely when he/she feels useless, abandoned, deserted, neglected and a burden to others. The feelings become sort of pains, emotionally/psychologically and mentally, as these pains are non-physical, they can breakdown the sufferers spiritually. Many, especially the elderlies, tend to need more attentions from close ones, however, few are able to get them. Medicines alone is hardly able to remove the emotional pains from these patients.

Youretruly: patriot

allow me some time to digest your post

I am much encouraged by your remark(Post#70) and sincerely believed the others will be motivated as well.

The pain a patient suffers may or most likely comprises of physical and spiritual(emotional/sentient), as both are immeasurable(unmeasurable?), which is more intense maybe difficult to determine. Whereas physical pain can be alleviated and overcame by medicines, sentient pain is almost impossible to be numbed or overwhelmed. It could be reduced or triggered on whence sufferer get consoled, comforted or agitated by presence or absence of emotionally linked people(kins, friends and medical staff etc).

Both physical and sentient pains can be crippling and unbearable, while medicine is effective on most physical pains, medicine is only effective on sentient pain sufferers when it(medication) sedates him/her or put them into slumbers. Sentient pain to some could be more painful than physical ones and based on the effectiveness of medications on both, sentient pain is a far more complex suffering that is beyond medical help. Counselling maybe an avenue, but how effective can it be to a desperate person?

Having read this thread repeatedly, I would say, other than myself, I will not be able to approve euthanasia on anyone else.

I’d rather not put the decision on whether to continue living on other people’s hands, nor be in a position where I have to decide whether another person is to live or die.

i’d like to put on record that i have learnt so much since i became aware of this blogsite. i have read and re-read most of your sharings and have gained so much from them.

there are other posters whom i also pay close attention to, particularly, Donaldson, logicalman, blade, james, Daniel, TKL and so many more…. all those who have offered differing in-dept views.

please continue to share as much as you can so that we can learn and pass on what we learn to the next generation.

wishing all of you good health.

thanks.

most of your points are valid and true, however they are at the same time ‘open-ended’. it means that you are making assumptions based on what you have probaby seen, heard and felt – possibly with direct contact with these sort of patients as well. forgive me for using the word ‘assumption’ because i feel that one who is not in pain can only imagine what pain is and this ‘imagining’ comes in different degrees.

it also means that no person or institution can therefore claim a right to make such an important decision as to whether one should live or die.

i agree we do come across many articles and reports of people wanting to die because of the unbearable pain they go through but as i have mentioned in my earlier post, these same people do not want to die if the pain is taken away from them. do we give up on them just because the medicine no longer works to alleviate their pain? do we let them die because of this? we need to look at what sort of palliative care we can provide instead of deciding if a patient should die.

you are also correct to point out that healthy people do not understand the pain these patients go through. again, we have to acknowledge that different people can bear pain differently. how then do we decide at which level of pain would we let the patient go?

i can feel the ‘pain’ you try to bring across by your 24/7 example but somehow i also feel that if we start using such ‘criteria’ to assist in our decision making, than there is a danger that any patient who calls out in pain will be ‘let go’ regardless of other considerations.

not all followers of any religion are that pious. i saw muslims who eat pork, drink alcohol and gamble, against the tenets of islam, but they still go on committing these sins anyway. what is to stop people from undergoing euthanasia, to end their suffering?

and we are not talking about normal people seeking death. if they really want to die, they can die anywhere, anytime, by committing suicide. they don’t have to get assistance from doctors and healthcare providers.

we are talking about those who are too ill to take their own lives. those who don’t even have strength to take up a knife and cut their wrist.

from the tv and the papers, there are increasingly more cases whereby terminally ill patients tried to commit suicide by drug overdose, telling us that there is a trend where people do really want to end their suffering.

healthy people like us don’t understand the pain and suffering terminally ill patients have to undergo.
they have to eat a cocktail of drugs for every meal for the rest of their life, (untill they recover or die). for terminal stage cancer, taking these drugs simply means prolonging ur life. nothing more than that. you have almost zero chance of recovery.
at the terminal stage of cancer, all of your organs will start to stop functioning. do you under the pain of kidney failure patients? well, they only have 1 set of non functioning organs (their kidneys). imagine when your entire set of organs are all not functioning. your pancreas, your kidneys, liver, intestine, heart, lungs, brain etc. it would be “OUCH” 24/7.

can you tahan that kind of pain? at that point of illness, even drugs like morphine would have lost its effectiveness, and you are condemn to die a slow and painful death. do you want to die like that?

You are most kind and humble. I did learn from you and many others. Old people like us will pass on someday. While we are still kicking and able to share our humble thoughts and not necessary all sharings to be well received, I had my fair shares of challenges when my comments were at the other side of the fence. Sometime can be very tiring for me to get fully engaged as I still have to make ends meet. My time management is deteriorating as I ages. Sometimes, the mind just black out for no good reasons. I hope this is not he sign of Alzheimer.

Regardless, I have always believed and to this day that one need to speak their mind. Policies, Hard and Fast Rules…etc however bad they can be can never dictate what a people’s mind think if you have the will. I have been a fighter since 12 and never allowed others to influence my frame of mind and train of thought albeit I am not a “Graduate”. Pardon the pun.

Ending with that note, I hope whatever contributions seen in this community blog will somehow enlighten the experiences and exposures (for the young ones in particular) of any readers or conrtibutors seeking an alternative views on subjected matters where it is of their interest and concerns. It is okay to disagree for whatever reasoning (as we are only human beings, not saint) and hopefully people will maintain their composure and engage their exchanges in a friendly manner and not resort into emotional rambling. That I think it is not only not healthy and constructive, but it sends a wrong message to the young ones who are trying to learn a thing or two so that they can be better informed to face the reality of this not so beautiful world. More or less, our generation had been through that and am gald that some of us remain true to our inner-self, let’s not taint our young one’s mindset.

thank You very much for the kind compliment #Post 28. I have been greatly encouraged by the many comments You made, since we first met in Cyberspace.

Should I say I find your comments carried the substances of reason, experience and intellect. Most importantly, You have made them educational as well.

You did get me back here without having to call, I just got spur on by You, not accusing You of inciting of course.

Yours Humbly: patriot

“Well – wasn’t MAS in charge of all these banking stuff ? Yet they bumbled in the Lehmann Minibonds affair. There is never an adequate check and balance in a one-party state ! Especially when the Gov has an incestuous relationship with all the watch-dogs !

I will never entrust my life with the Gov. Who knows ? They might jolly well encourage euthanasia in place of expensive medical care for the aged. And thats when the system gets thoroughly abused !”

Essentially, what you’re saying is that as long as the PAP is in power you’ll oppose anything they do regardless of its merits because you do not trust them enough to do it. Society must stand still until the party is overthrown and the system changed. One must remember that government is merely a means to an end – and if this government does something one feels is right, one must stand by it. Otherwise it’s a straight choice between utter stasis and revolution. You may be ok with that, but you cannot subject the citizens to that choice. Besides, true change is bottom up. To get the liberal democracy we all want, society must liberalise first.

There’re alot of things about the incumbent party I don’t like, but one thing about them you must admit is that they operate through he rule of law. The laws may be heavily skewered,but they cannot arbitrarily step in and kill individual citizens. Besides, it is not government that decides who gets euthanised – we’re hardly Nazi Germany – it is the patients in concert with family and medical professionals. Our hospitals are mostly privately-ran (too much so, IMO) and your scenairo of an evil government euthanising patients for expediency is needless scaremongering.

And about all the complaints about euthanasia – abuse etc, I agree that they must be stopped. But all these are peripheral problems that can, and must, be checked through regulation. But none of these arguments have convinced me of the core moral right of euthanasia – that a person has a right to die, or to entrust his life to someone else, if he so chooses. The core of the argument still stands.

we await enlightenment from you then. give us the facts and logics- if you can, please.

As for euthanasia itself as a moral issue, my stance:

1. If somebody is in terminal condition and wants to forego treatment in order to die, so be it. The professionals (doctors, counselors) ought to provide full information, but the decision lies with the individual.

2. Doctors are trained to help save lives, not take them. It is not fair to put the burden of euthanasia on them. Certainly they should never be allowed to directly administer death e.g. overdose morphine.

3. In cases where the patient is not conscious, follow the AMD. No AMD means we try to keep her alive.

4. As a previous comment suggests, if the problem is physical pain, then surely we can find ways to alleviate the pain without resorting to death.

John Maynard Keynes
1883 — 1946