Gerald Giam / Senior Writer
I happened to sit next to an older relative at a wedding dinner recently, when our conversation turned to politics.
My relative wondered why I had not followed my parents to Australia, and mused that he was considering moving there too. When I asked why, he cited the fear of political instability in Singapore.
That remark surprised me since Singapore is seen by many to be one of the most politically stable countries in Asia. We have had no change of government – violent or otherwise – since 1959.
When probed further, my uncle said he feared the opposition taking over in a freak election. I assured him that given the current state of the opposition, the PAP government will not be under any threat of losing an election within his lifetime. More importantly, I told him I trust Singapore voters to be wise enough not to vote a lousy party into power.
He countered by pointing out that even when the opposition had fielded “criminals” and slipper-wearing candidates, they were still able to garner 20 to 30% of the vote.
I explained, from my limited knowledge of electoral sociology, that in every election, there will be at least 20% of voters who are hardcore oppositionists and will vote for anyone who ran against the ruling party candidate. In Sembawang GRC where I live, 23% still voted for the Singapore Democratic Party (SDP) team sans party chief Chee Soon Juan, even though it was running against a relatively strong PAP team helmed by the likable and Chinese-speaking Health Minister, Khaw Boon Wan. That was the largest margin of victory for the PAP in that election.
However the gulf between 23% and 50% — the latter being the percentage necessary to win a seat outright — is huge. Even in the most closely contested constituency of Aljunied GRC in the 2006 General Election, the PAP’s 55% win against the Workers’ Party would be considered a landslide in most other democracies. Consider the UK’s Labour Party, which won the 2005 election with just 35% of the popular vote. Put in this perspective, the PAP’s 66.6% overall percentage in 2006 was a blowout victory.
My uncle admires the PAP for what they have achieved, not just for Singapore, but for him personally. Growing up in a one-room flat, and now living in a private apartment, he has seen a dramatic improvement in his standard of living over the past 40 years. He reserved stinging criticism for some of his peers who “live in bungalows” and are still so ungrateful as to grumble about the government.
I cautioned him that past performance is no guarantee of future success, as investors always say. Just because the PAP has governed well in the past, does not mean that it will continue to do so for eternity. My uncle agreed that no country has had a particular party govern forever.
In the short term however, he was supremely confident that the PAP’s recruitment process will ensure that only top-notch candidates are presented in each election. In contrast, he said, the opposition was happy to take anyone who had a degree and was willing to pay the election deposit, even if they had no “track record”.
“What is your definition of a track record?” I asked him. Many of the new PAP MPs don’t exactly have a very long resume either. Nevertheless, he was sure that with the many interviews they had undergone with party leaders, coupled with the background checks, PAP candidates would definitely meet the necessary criteria for political leadership.
I asked him if he would consider voting for a non-PAP candidate if he or she were more “qualified” than the PAP candidate.
After initially saying he would, he later reasoned that it would be impossible for an opposition candidate to be as qualified as his PAP opponent. Firstly, the PAP’s recruitment process would throw up only the best men in the country. Secondly, anyone worth their salt, who genuinely desired to serve the people and make Singapore a better place would join the PAP instead of the opposition.
He was of the view that a capable person would be “out of his mind” to join the opposition, and that people who joined the opposition did so only out of self-interest or ulterior motives. Why else would someone want to oppose such an “excellent” government? Apparently, joining the opposition in and of itself indicated a character flaw.
He dismissed the possibility that some principled individuals joined the opposition because they could not see themselves joining the PAP due to fundamental disagreements with the latter’s style of governance. He also did not see the price many opposition members paid for their political beliefs as worthy of much respect.
Our heated discussion went on and on. In the end it was time to go home and we had to agree to disagree.
What the opposition fails to see
While I was slightly dismayed to hear these words from an educated senior citizen like my uncle, I have no doubt that he represents a significant constituency of citizens who have a “rags-to-riches” story to tell.
His point of view is particularly instructive for our opposition.
From my past conversations with many opposition members, I get the sense that many of them joined because they felt a need to “check” the ruling party — nothing else. And many of them think that just because they are not the PAP, and they shake a few hands and show up on Nomination Day, voters will choose them over their rivals.
This is a recipe for defeat — again and again, election after election.
What they fail to see is that the “swing” voters (i.e., those who may vote either way on Polling Day and who effectively decide the outcome of an election) are largely voting for a party to form the Government, not individuals who merely snap at the heels of the PAP behemoth.
Therefore, to win their vote, the opposition parties have to prove to these voters that they are competent and honest enough to lead the whole country, not just their ward, and will not end up flushing half a century of progress down the drain.
The opposition has two crutches that it always falls back on: One, that the unlevel political playing field created by the PAP makes it impossible to mount any significant challenge to it; and two, that good people do not step forward to join their parties.
These are both true to a great extent, but it should not stop the opposition parties from improving themselves internally, so as to present a more professional face to the voting public.
People want to hear different, and better ideas from the opposition on how to run the country, not just gripes about every little fault of the PAP.
It is not unusual that many Singaporeans hold the opposition to a higher standard than they do for the ruling party. After all, the opposition has no track record of successfully running a nation, and therefore has to prove they are twice as good as their PAP opponents before they will earn the vote.
It is my hope that our opposition will shift to a higher gear soon, and that more good men and women will join them. The next election is due by November 2011. With the economy heading south, it is likely that the Prime Minister will call for an election much earlier than that (since a poor economy generally favours the PAP over the opposition).
Time is running out, and the people’s hopes are slowly getting dashed. Can the opposition turn things around and dispel people’s fear of their success?
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HELP keep the voice of TOC alive!
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Thanks, Gilbert Goh;
I am much comforted to learn that your heart is with us though You are abroad.
You have said a truth in your post(#129), that most bloggers and commenters may not be comfortable getting together to ‘walk the talks’. This is the single big problem that SINGAPORE faces, not Singaporean, read again not Singaporeans.
If my understangs are correct, most blogges and commenters are highly qualified and successful except for those studying. Some students are in tune wth our social-political developments and I suspect they are not very impressed with the System, quite on the contrary.
Bloggers and commenters are by and large non-political themselves and they are the intellectuals that fortunately or unfortunately born with consciences in them. They involuntarily sympathize with the underdogs and there are natural urges(voluntary or not, they themselves know) to express their feelings of empathies and sympathies. It is not so much as to get to the forefronts and confront the Authority head on and this results in self restrictions and restraints. It means, this far is all I will go and no further. Many may even think ‘I have done my part’ which I accept they do.
Allow me to insert the group that are older in age, lower in qualifications(certified), belonging to the lower strata, working in menial jobs such as taxi drivers, security personnels, retail person etc. I belong to this group of very lay people. I asked myself what can I do and honestly, writing to feedback the Authority was what I did for the past few decades. Not much changes, in fact things got worse, I think. Out of frustrations, I used my mouth. When my children went abroad to study, I learnt to use the computer and here I am. HOW FAR AND HOW MUCH CAN WE DO OR CONTRIBUTE?
Many of us here are reasonable folks albeit we do have emotional outbursts from time to time. HOWEVER, in here(blogs), there are also moles and masquerading intruders that invariably are here to upset the cohesiveness of the Netizens. These intrusions undeniably have the effects of arousing suspicions and fears whether ones’ views are acceptable to most and or are valid in facts and fairness. This could have the effects of creating self doubts and worse, they got us to suspect each others, but I hope this will not deter netizens to form activist groups.
The only way Netizens can play an effective and consequential role, in the absences of an effective opposition and a benign or benevolent leadership in this society, is to go and push further into the Discourse by becoming active away from your armchairs and screens. I mean You are already active in your airconned rooms,why not extend the discourse outside it? Meet up with the liked-minded, brainstorm for solutions, if not for anything just to fulfill your chivalrous nature. After all, the monikers and anons do not prevent You from identifications.
I do wish and hope that young netizens like Zefly, singaporespirits and others could be led by other working professional netizens to paticipate in person with the TOC People. I have seen Mr Leong Sze Hian and Mr Tan Kin Lian actively in actions here and in the field and believe with more walking the talks liked them, there can be A POTENT FORCE for the betterment of Singaporeans.
patriot
Patriot,
Well said! Actually I have given some thought about how to change things here. As i am in the creative industry, I even thought of doing a Michael Moore-like documentary, but perhaps not so one-sided. You’re right to say that the most important thing is to just keep the Discourse going, and make people aware that the Discourse is NOT just for politicians, but for everyone. There is no such thing as politics is only for the politicians, and you have to join poltics to be qualified. Politics affect EVERYBODY so Everybody counts.
I’ll be upfront and say what holds me back from poltical activity really is self-doubt. I have uni-qualifications, and runs a flegling business good enough to feed myself and my parents, and maybe able to have a relatively comfy life, that’s all. I always, whether rightly or wrongly, see that anyone who wants to run for office have to have a much bigger success in life than what i have now. You know, if i were a US citizen, I’d be the sort that would sign up to call people to vote Democrat, but not be the forerunner myself. If I can look at an opposition party member like James Gomez and ask ‘would i even trust him to run a town council’, then i have ask myself likewise if people would trust me with the enormity of the task.
That’s why I say, the lttle we can help is take it beyond the net-sphere. Just get people more engaged in the Discourse.
To Patriot:
Hi thanks for your compliment. I recently got converted to be more politically active but still a long way to join any political party yet.
As mentioned, we always termed ourselves politically active by joining a political party. This is, I think, also the mindset of the ruling party. If you want to engage in politics, find a party and join or else shut up.
I find this so untrue and wrong. One can be politically engaged by speaking out in public especially if there is any political forum going on or attend the HLP gatherings if there is any.
So, what consititute one to be politically active? A frutiful discussion over coffee at the HDB coffee shop on political issues also enables one to be active in politics. Helping out the PAP or other oppistion parties’ walk-abouts may also allow one to be active politically. Writing in such blog is also one way.
Singaporeans lack such fruitful discussion on politics. Overseas, people talk alot about politics and especially in unis – discussions and even open demonstrations is allowed for one to be engaged politically.
Will the current situation improves? I think so as slowly I see that people realised politics affect the lives of the general public. What is hampering them from venturing to find out more is the feeling that will there be changes if I get involved? Will my efforts be rewared with some form of change in the governance? Unless one can overcome such inertia, politics in Singapoe may be leftto the politicians.
” Will my efforts be rewared with some form of change in the governance? Unless one can overcome such inertia, politics in Singapoe may be leftto the politicians.”
We shouldn’t leave politics to politicians as they tend have their own agenda to promote. What important is the citizen’s interest. Voice out, shout out and showing dissent are very important no matter how small it may seen as changes might not be made voluntarily by government but may coerce and forced by international organization agreement. Certain international organization have power to santion and a enforce a certain course of action. In fact, the westerners are monitoring these site daily, as my most of westerner friends do. Do not underestimate the power of foreign help. The foreigners can only understand what happening if many people voice out, positively or negatively. These foreigners can only help if the people help themselves first, even if it means to voice out behind anonymity in the blogosphere. So do your part and don’t belittle your comment how matter how insignificant it may seen to you.
It is disappointed the your uncle have said such a comment on Singapore political system. I simple thing that he is too simple minded. I have serve my time in the PAP grassroot and also help up in opposition in both their social work and mps before regularly. I simple want to help up resident who are in need of help in all way and contribute to our community. To my observation and supprise, I do seen many even resident in the PAP constituency have contribute their part in helping and even contributing in their social activities.
With their limited funding and resource, they have done as will a what the public aspect from the PAP government.
Let come back to why people fear to join opposition party. I do gather feedback personnally from young and old within my personnal network and my business network. This question is not new to public, but it is still sensitive to Singaporean.
I do conclude the public have group all opposition as one (excluding the 2 opposition MP) even when they have different political and national Philosophy. All this thanks to the media propaganda and attitube toward opposition political party, and public fear of PAP governement historical background against opposition camp. These are factors of why many have come to help in the opposition camp back do not want to join in to contribute.
I can only say that even the PAP government willing to accept political openess, it is useless when Singaporean wh are not ready for it.
” PAP government willing to accept political openess”
Let’s the PAP accept political openness first, and let it be the one to open up because it is the party that control the political environment in first place, didn’t it ?
“useless when Singaporean wh are not ready for it.’
How do we know Singaporean not ready for it ?
Remember Hong Lim Park ? Many do not see a need for it, quoting that they have better thing to do at home, but when Lehman thingy exposed and investors panicked over unrecoverable loss, Hong Lim Park becomes a place of meeting and protest. And who really can predict that Hong Lim Park one day has become a place with a thousand protestants against financial product mis-selling and misrepresentation ?
Singaporeans might just be ready, they just need trigger point and charismatic leader like Tan Kin Lian. With increasing cost of living and blunders and policies by government which translate to cost passing back to the citizens, Singaporeans are just be prepared for unprecedented protest.
To Daniel
Ya I tend to agree with you that the timing now is about right as we have the recession coming in now plus the minibond fiasco.However, I am unsure whether such gathering will be there if it concerns other issues other than their hard earned money. This will then be a good test case for Singaporeans to see how daring and open they are to protest openly with cameramen taking pictures and the camera crew filming them.
In everything, there is a timing and actually the recent opening up of political openness viz-a-viz HLP is a blessing to all protestors.
What is puzzling is perhaps the fact that we only protest openly when the govt allows it. Can you see the contradiction here? The level of political openness is actually dictated by the govt and I find this abit bewildering. We actually don’t have much political freedom here.
TKL and group have done a good job in speaheading this movement to tend to the investors’ need. I think this could be the beginning of a new dawn hopefully.
I think there are still many things we can raise at the Speakers Corner that has less to do with ‘human rights’ and more to do with addressing the frustration the people feel over the rising costs of everything, and the lack of adequate explanation.
Eg a) HDB prices – of course we don’t expect them to be same prices twenty years ago, but the fact is that people are SPENDING MORE every month on housing than before.
b) CPF withdrawal. I know many people are not happy with the current scheme. Two issues here, one is the withdrawal age and amount etc, and second is, where exactly is the money? Is it, like kept safely in the bank, or it is being used as investments without our permission?
And so on and so forth. I believe Singaporeans are not so unreasonable that we only want the government to make ‘popular’ decisions. We want to know as much as possible how the government arrive at these unpopular decisions as the only way to go.
My pet issue really is, did we walk into this globalization thing knowing way ahead that it’s going to cause a greater divide between the rich and the poor? And how are we better off now than before?
To: Zefly
Hi thanks for your insightful piece on the topics that can be raised in HLP.
Frankly, I think that these issues are already make known to the authorities. We merely highlight this to the government again. As spoken before, alot depend on whether they will do something about it. What we are merely doing is reinforcing such issues to them again by way of open protests. Our iintention to protest is of course to openly pressure the government to do something about our grievances. However, are this really SIngaporeans’ grievances or a few of our own?
DO you think that if we called a protest people will attend? Frankly I doubt it. We may get fifty people to a hundred max but i doubt we can draw the kind of crowd affected by the minibond fiasco. People turned up becuase it concerns them and they are hurt in the pocket. Though people are concerned about the living costs and other issues, I doubt that they will take their grievances to the street (HLP) as it is so new and unfamiliar territory.
And even if they do take to the street, will the authorities act on the protests and do something about it? Probably if the crowd size is alarming 500 to a thousand on a regular basis. Crowd size of more than 2,000 to 3,000 will be a fantastic show of defiance and force. Thailand’s protestors easily number 5,000 and above fed by businessmen who want changes in policies sometimes to their own benefit. Indoensians protestors are known to be paid daily rate to take to the street in protest.
IS this the only and best way to show our grievances? I don’t know. It is unchartered territory but definitely we need unorthodox ways now to do something about what is happening in our country.
Zefly,
I’m curious. Aren’t HDB prices and CPF withdrawal pertaining INDIRECTLY to human right ? rRemember we have the right to question the government on how these areas but the government brush these issues aside as non-issue and move on. If we have strong human right, will the government even dare to ignore citizen’s concern. Remember who is asking these questions on the citizen’s behalf ?
(143) laserpointer on November 1st, 2008 2.06 am:
don’t quite get your last question, would be good if you could explain what you’re trying to bring across.
Well basically what I was trying to say is that when people say the would like to see change, they tend to say “we” should go for this model or that model.
But often there is little discussion as to how “we” get from the system that we’ve now to where we want it to be (assuming we can get agreement to where we want it to be!).
If you related to investment strategy, when we talk about which political models to adopt, we often judge a financial instruments in terms of returns on investment or degree of risk. But that is only judging one end. The other how are we going to fund the instrument. Have we considered that when we our own Individual circumstances and how it relates to risk?
For example, when people talk about financial instruments they tend to classify in a simplistic way, saving low risk and stocks high risk. You see risk is not the same in all circumstances, its very much individual. For example, if you are putting excess money, that you can afford to loose into stocks rather than savings can you say that stocks is riskier? After all, you could suffer the risk of putting into savings by having inflation eat away what you earn.
Likewise, if you wanted to change a political model, do you want to do it the piecemeal way: change from within the PAP (see my earlier comments) or change it from outside (see my earlier comments) or maybe something else. Maybe some might say from inside the PAP is less risky but what if the pace of reform is so slow and political events as Donaldson Tan has indicated, it is could be near a tipping point, and things are already heading for disaster. Will any grain you make from reforming the PAP be already swamped by other agents of changed, e.g. a collapsing economy but unable to remove a PAP leadership that is still in denial?
A bit like you inflation eating away whatever you get from your saving account. Or do you go for broke by risking it in stocks?
Applying it to political change question. Maybe we should go for revolution? Or maybe we should just wait for the PAP to screw-up big time, and then change? In other words, how should be make the change, assuming that ‘we’ want it, to happen?
I am not saying I have the I answer. Just musing?
#127, Patriot:
>May I ask here, how many here are willing to pool your ideas, make an effort to meet, fraternize and get together to work out something???<
When I frist read your question, my immediate respond was: “Sure, why not? It’s a fantastic idea. However, I told myself to stop and think
over it for a while before giving my reply. And these are some of my thoughts:
1. Which is better?
a. to come together to work out someting, or,
b. to continue to share ideas on this blogsite.
2. What are the pros and cons of group gatherings?
3. What are the pros and cons of blog-sharing?
4. How effective can group meetings be?
5 How effective can blog-sharing be?
6. Would people contribute better face to face or anonymously through a discussion platform such as TOC?
7. Would there be a difference to what we hope to achieve?
I am sure those of you who have been following my comments would know by now that I have always felt that platforms like TOC has a lot
more to offer than just being ‘a blog’. We are in the midst of something new which we haven’t have the faintest idea how effective it can be.
Neither do we know the extent by which we can make this into an effective tool that can act as a check and balance to the govt of the day.
Now, coming back to my fsets of questions – group gathering or online discussion?
Without going into details, I feel that online discussion is more effective than group gatherings: We all know that group gatherings can be
misconstrued by the govt whether on purpose or by intent. By this, I mean that, whether we like it or not, the reality is that we will be
exposing ourselves to whatever the govt might deemed we are. Remember the ‘Marxist’ arrest? I do not believe that was a Marxist group.
It was more like a group of activitists trying to bring about change to Singapore.
We won’t be doing ourselves any favour if we become targets for the govt.
There are a whole lot of other reasons whay group gathering is not such a good idea especially at this time where the political climate is one that
depended on the ‘whim and fancy’ of this govt.
Why then is online discussion better? For the moment at least, freedom of expression is one of the main factor that makes online discussion
a more useful tool in the exchange of ideas and sharing of information. Speed is another important factor that works in it favour. Comments
are presented in real time and each discourse can be concluded in the shortest possible time if there is a sort of control – a party that
sets the agenda and direct the course of the discussion to achieve a set of goals. The outreach is far more effective and can reach a larger
audience quicker.
When we can do this, we can then become an online political party without being a political party. The voice of the people is represented
by the people themselves. We just need someone to organise the ideas and comments into something worth listening to – alternative solutions.
We then need to have a mouthpiece, a spokesperson, who can bring about the issues that have been discussed and agreed, to the attention
of the govt or any institutional bodies concerned or even to the general public.
I can go on about the details but more or less this is what my hope is for online discussion.
TOC cannot be just a blog anymore. It has, whether intentionally or otherwise, developed into something more than just a blog. It is growing into
becoming the voice of Singapore. It now has the responsibility towards Singaporeans to step further ahead in championing the cause of
Singaporeans. You are begining to see that ST has been quoting TOC whenever they have to explain the actions of the govt. This is a huge
step forward and we must capitalise on this.
Patriot, as for meeting up for sharing, we can still do this but it has to be something informal. It cannot be a meeting with a set agenda to take
on the govt. This not yet the time for this.
Gemami Philip
come together??? i’d sure love that, but think people, talking between ourselves isnt going to solve anything. sure, it’d be great to get things off your chest and all, but now it all comes down to how we will be in the next GE.
@Tan ah Kow
ahh…. got it.
as for the change part, my belief is that right now barring a major event happening, yes a major major one, it will be pretty long before we see a change or any sort that resembles a radical change. I take your point regarding that we will never know the true extent of satisfaction with the government, but for change to happen i believe it’s the historical conditions that will precede the change.
as for the “we” part, like what i said earlier, might be a little complicated considering that everyone doesn’t have uniform interests and equal level of influence.
I tend to think too, that while the government has done a lot of wrong, they have rather been successful, take it as “pacifying” or “able to meet the demands” of the majority, so much so that if we just equate those people that support them in terms of electoral votes (granted, the point on walkovers) as just being “brainwashed” would really be a simplistic way of understanding how the government has been so “successful”.
and yes, just thinking out loud +)
Dear gemami;
allow me to try my best to address your concerns for Netizens to communicate in person. I will preface by saying that NETIZENS ARE NOT POLITICIANS. MOST ARE CONCERNED WITH SOCIO-POLITICAL POLICY IMPLEMENTATIONS, ANYTHING MORE, OTHER NETIZENS HAVE THE PREROGATIVE NOT TO PARTICIPATE.
ANYONE WITH PERSONAL AGENDA HAS THE FREEDOM TO PURSUE THEM AT THEIR OWN DISCRETIONS.
Which is a better idea? Blogging and commenting anonymously behind others or share the discourse in person? Obviously the Latter, as You have correctly put it, good even great ideas are found in the Net. Those ideas will remain as ideas, grand and spicy, but abstract and empty unless acted upon and put into practices.
Netizens meetings does not mean formal gatherings, one or even groups can seek like-minded folks for a picnic, over tea/coffee/beer to exchange opinions and ideas. When there is an important issue that requires more participation just like the minibond fiasco, Site like TOC can be approach for help to organise and permission seeked for gathering, presently only in HLP. I am not for revolution or large scale gatherings, whether for demonstration or otherwise. A core Group that will be able to advance the agenda will suffice. It is only important to have the message and wish properly and effectively relayed to the Authority. If need for mass participation arises, further arrangement shall then follow.
Fear of the Authority infiltrating or monitoring gatherings, this fear is unwarranted unless the netizens involved are up to mischieves. Bear in mind, the face to face meets that I mentioned are for netizens to fraternize, not to take up arms, not to hatch plots to overthrow the Regime and not to fight one another. As I have said, your monikers and anons do not save You from being monitored or identified.
What I am saying here is, no netizen should do anything against the Laws.
Netizens gatherings will also sieve the sinceres from the non-committed but are in the Net, plain ideas qualify as contributions too as some have rightly expressed in this thread. Call them sleeping partners if You like. Meeting one anothers do not mean blogging and commenting no more, no, it is to familiarize one anothers beyond the writings, it is to enhance the relationships. In jest, I have to admit that there are people who like each others’ writings but may not like each others’ faces and demeanours.
To put ideas into fruitions must be the wishes of all sincere people and I sincerely hope some intellectuals will take the initiatives to lead. ‘Zi shang tan ping’ will be great waste, translate into English, it means strategies on papers are useless. So, unless strategies are translated into actions, how great an idea is interpreted, it remains empty talk.
Do wish that You read Zeflys’ suggestions as well, they deserve looking into.
Thanks Zefly for furthering the Subject in discussion.
patriot
Daniel,
“I’m curious. Aren’t HDB prices and CPF withdrawal pertaining INDIRECTLY to human right ?”
Yes of course they are. But I am reminded time and again by Lim, and some of the general public who are not as outspoken or concerned with the ‘abstract’ issues of ‘human rights’. You mention human rights now and they think of Chee Soon Juan. I talk to my dad about CPF, he gets mad at the PAP. But I tell him about human rights in Singapore, he tells me about how it is some secret conspiracy of the West. So, it is really just to talk the language that people are comfortable with.
Balancing what germani and patriot said, I think it might be good idea to move this discussion elsewhere other than this comments page as it has ballooned to be quite hard to keep up. I’m not really sure who is running TOC here, but I’m sure he’s reading this lol… so maybe, just like how you put up a notice today about the Speakers COrner appointment, you can set up a facebook group or what and post the notice here. At least, you know, even if we are to carry on discussions for the time being online, we know each other as human beings and not just annonymous aliases. (and yes, all you doubters, I AM A SECRET INFILTRATOR!!! ngiak ngiak ngiak! Thous shalt be exposed as Marxists!)
Just read some of the articles exposing how the justifications for electricity prices and bus frequencies are flawed. Have to keep giving pressure to the providers to come clean about their calculations.
Wow this is getting interesting and I also see alot of push and pull here.
Some want to meet up and talk more about politics whereas others are fearful that we maybe seen as conspirators up to no good by the authorities. I guess this is Singaporean politics – the fear factor is still very strong here. However,my kudos to those who are gung ho to take things to another level despite the risks and odds. I am also aware that this site may be monitored so those who put their namesand air their thoughts openly ought to be appreciated.
Great things always happen to great people who dare to plod on. My opinion is to let this blog of thoughts develop further on. Some may not be comfortable meeting up whereas others who are more exposed when they are overseas are more ready. SOme like me who are overseas may only support through blogging away or sharing my thoughts in ST forum pages. I don’t see how I can influence or pressure the govt in any form here unless it gives the “mandate”. At worse, we may be seen as passionate people clearing our frustrations daily like the many thousands of netizens here and in other sites.
Our youth is very politically apathetic which is a concern as spoken by some here and even if we see our country going down the hill we may be ignorant of it until it is too late. Nevertheless, I don’t see this happening soon with capable people at the helm now. What we probably want is to have more avenue to air our frustrations and bring this up to the authorities. I think we all know that so far those measure have already being exhausted – petition, illegal assembly by some WP candidates, St forums, open discussions organised by PAP and HLP.
HLP provides the most recipe for success as firstly it is legal and secondly you can gather a crowd. If the media is on our side, it can be seen as a success. The organisation needs to be superb and TKL has proved that a simple speaker system and lots of heart for the common people have advanced us forward alot democratically in terms of freedom of speech and human rights.
Internationally, we also have people like Francis Seow and CSJ who will work over time to bring up our political agenda. As someone hs spoken here, thissite may be monitored by international human rights bodies and I take heart that what we are doing here hopefully may change things for the better in teh future. If not, i am trigger happy firing away my shots whenever I am unhappy.
I’m not sure how many of you have visited Yawning Bread.com but that’s the kind of people we need now. Someone who actually has the patience and brains to analyze data put out by the ‘authorities’ with surgical precision and say ‘hey, your argument/justification’ is flawed.
I’m talking about all the price hikes, the wisdom of the GST etc. Government says, we like to talk about bread and butter issues, right, let’s talk about it now.
The mainstream news media has indeed tried to play ‘both sides of the story’. But if you notice, the last say is usually with the authorities. And then the debate sort of ends there, and then they move to talk about something else.
I feel the way to do it is to keep hammering away the same points over and over again. Like how the herb garden incident is being ‘exposed’. The mainstream media, for all its alleged compliance, also wants to be seen as an objective party, so if enough buzz is generated online about an issue, they will want to pursue it.
Like the Agnes Lin issue. A journalist friend told me that the internet buzz has led to the ST wanting to interview to clear up her side of the story Agnes again, but she apparently turned it down.
Lastly, we also have to earn the trust that we are not rabble-rousers and only want to ‘vent our anger’, but mature people who actually look into issues and keep the PAP ‘on their toes’ as LHL puts it himself.
167) patriot
Thanks for addressing the concerns mentioned and I do share most of your sentiments.
However, I also feel there is a need to clarify some points.
1. I agree that Netizens are not politicians even though the issues discussed are mostly political in nature. For this reason I suggested that we test the boundaries of unchartered territories of online discussion and turn the online platform into one that plays the role of a political party as much as it can. It has to become the voice of the people and it must be loud enough for the authorities to take heed.
2. Being anonymous is not a bad thing altogether. By respecting this we allow ideas to be put across by whoever chooses to participate (even pro-policy, pro-party or pro-govt etc). It does not matter if there are those who join in the discussion to ‘rock the boat’ – all are welcomed.
3. I also agree that there is a need to transform words into action and there is a need for bloggers to meet to discuss how to go about doing this. But, is there a real need to meet up face to face? I feel that organising such meet ups entails a fair bit of organising and would depend on whether each individual can make it to such meetings. Unless we make it such that we meet, say, every Saturday at HLP at 5pm or somehting along the same line. Then anyone can come join in without prejudice.
4. Another thing we can be sure of. Will there be people ‘dare’ enough to meet up even with such an arrangement? No problem with me but I cannot speak for others. I have actually spoken with some friends about this and the general concensus is, anonymosity is fine but showing their faces is not. This is why I said that the element of being ‘intentional targets’ is real. One label is all it takes. Call it fear or anything you like but it IS still real. All it takes is for the govt to go bonkers and think you are making too much trouble for them and destrying their peace and that’s IT.
5. Now, with all these factors at play, it is why I always feel that online discussion is faster and more effective when deciding on the course of actions that we can agree on. This is why I also feel, like you, that we need a team of active people who can bring words into action. This is why I support your call to meet. This is also why I feel that even as we meet, online discussion should take priority over group meetings. Because, even without meeting face to face, we can still link up (outside of TOC) on a different platform to discuss ideas and action plans.
Bottomline we have agreed on is, we need a face for all the words written here and this face or faces has an important role to play – transforming words to action and getting the authorities to listen to the voice of the people.
My take is: online speed is faster than face to face meetings.
I sincerely and honestly hope more bloggers can step forward to answer Patriot’s call. It is a brave call and I am sure we can work something out.
Gemami P.
gemami;
I thank You for your response, the points You raised are noted and I thank You more for calling other netizens to act upon my suggestion, not a call, maybe a mere challenging suggestion. As You have put it; the fear is real and I have said the same thing many times myself at various blogs.
The responses to my suggestion are pretty muted, should I say I quite anticipated the result, infering from the constant calls to walk the talks. But, I am not disapointed, instead I feel assured now, how far netizens are willing to play their parts.
We are citizens in a very pragmatic and realistic(practical) society, bread and butter are what concern most and paradoxically bread and butter are also the causes of our grouses, ramblings and rantings. Yes TOC and its’ members have appeared in television and printed medias, inevitably expose to the Authority and getting their attentions. They are helping the people and the government simultaneously by making these two parties homogenious in ideology amenable to each other. In other words, they are playing peacemaker and or pacifier. I do not see them embarking on dangerous acts.
The TOC people are not politicians, they are active citizens playing their constructive roles to the people, to the country. Rightfully, the leaders should appreciate and be thankful for their contributions. Similarly, netizens can complement TOC and or be active themselves independently.
My suggestion may have only been made in TOC, but, it is not confine to netizens only in TOC Site, it is for all that comes across it.
gemami, I like to say to You that my suggestion does not include clandestine unlawful activities and finally, I forwarded my suggestion as a question, reason being that, I was not very hopeful.
Yours truly: patriot
I don’t think that meeting up is harmful as it allows those who are more eager to do something to come together. If I am in SIngapore, I may join in the discussion but at last I am in Sydney.
Meeting up provides a face to who we are and also screen out those who are serious and those who just want to blog away. I believe a high percentage belongs to the latter group. Maybe you can find less than 10-20% who will come up and meet face to face for further discussions Once you have met up then it is easier to do things as the familiarity and sizing up can then take place. Those who come together with one common objective and passion often come up with fantastic result as they are single minded and united in the pursuit of a common goal.
For too long, we do not have a platform to raise our protests and now we have HLP. For too long, we hide ourselves in secret blogs for fear that we may be found out lamblasting the govt and now we have TOC. Perhaps, the time now to test the water carries much lesser risk than before. The ground now is much more sweeter than before to carry out political activities within the law.
Even when I read the Sunday Times today (2/11), the PM has said that there will be more political openness. Surely he can’t eat his own words if things are done openly and within the legal framework.
The net isn’t really anonymous you know? Even if you don’t put your name down, you can still be tracked. If you need proof, just look at Odex.
That said, if you’re going to post things online, you might as well say them in real life.
Gilbert,
Just suggesting a few steps how you can take things further. Like you mentioned, there will be people who will drop in comments to ‘let of steam’. Then there are others who may wanna take things further like act as a pressure group or something…
I feel that the serious people should come together as a non partisan group.
I feel that you may wanna start an online ‘group’ or something. I suggested Facebook on my previous post.
Next is to hook up with other more thoughtful and prominent people. Like Warren Ferdinaz (my spelling sucks lol), Philip Jeyaratnam, Alex Au (?) the guy who runs yawning bread… maybe even Mr Brown (whom I believe has a very passionate serious side), Colin Goh etc etc.
Then again, those who are more serious could have easily joined the Think Tank or something lol. Pardon my ignorance. Just throwing some ideas around. The thing is, while TOC is a great site, it also faces the same problems as any alternative news website, where the discussions do not lead to something, as people would have moved on to other news to comment about.
Do you notice that somehow opposition members tend to be invariably businessmen and that non hail from the public sector (well maybe ex public sector like Francis Seow).
If really the oppositions can take over the govt. it means that Pap is becoming lousy and people don’t support them any more, it means oppositions are better, so why worry if opposition become the govt ? they can dig out a lot of things then
178) Tew N S on November 2nd, 2008 10.13 pm If really the oppositions can take over the govt. it means that Pap is becoming lousy and people don’t support them any more, it means oppositions are better, so why worry if opposition become the govt ? they can dig out a lot of things then
What if an alternative party takes over the present one?
any alternative parties can run the country as efficient of course, even if they may not be as efficient from the start but sincere in looking after the citizens welfare, at least the people knows where their monies had gone to. With the present ruling party, everything concerning the peoples monies are secrets and cannot be disclose, God knows how many more billions of our taxpayers monies would just disappered into thin air in time to come, possible? of course, who knows besides those who holds the keys to the nation reserve.
tiredsingaporean, i agree with you on this issue wholeheartedly, but i would like to know about the conditions of the alternative party. is it that another board of PAP members will take over the current board/?? please tell me in detail, as it may be helpful in seeing whether an alternative party would be good for a small country like SG.
JBA, it does not matter where the alternative party coming from, whether its from the 2 already appted ones in parliaments, a newly formed independent party or an internal breakaway from the exisiting PAPees (which is also highly possible when that someone’s gone to meet JBJ) Believe me, singapore will still progress ahead. Change is inevitable to anyone in any country, from good to bad or reverse, so no one or party can solely claim the success of singapore belongs to them, infact it belongs to its people, the true blue citizens of singapore.
The only party that can come into power for the next 5 years term now is the one that can and must be able to do that one big drastic change to singapore i.e. reversing the present system to meet the peoples needs. The present system has already gone so off balance and is causing so much suffering to its citizens instead, infact they are built to benefit more to those rich foreigners throwing their monies here and ultimately where the $$$ goes to? There is a bible saying: even satan knows how to protect his children, so what is our present ones doing? I leave to your own imagination.
tiredsingaporean
One aspect of elections policy that impedes the alternative parties (formerly known as Opposition) footing into parliament is the GRC. I wonder if the opposition would consider breaking the mental barrier of a GRC system and galvanise an alliance of the most credible from amongst the different parties to contest a GRC, considering;
All PAP GRC teams are pivoted only by one or two powerhouses flanked by a couple political backbenchers and a couple more amatuers (eg. the first political BAND, Duh!). If the Álternative parties can visualise a GRC as a group of adjacent SMCs, an alliance can configured to have 5 or 6 of the best individuals from amongst the various alternative parties forming a team to contest one or two GRCs.
Should the alliance win a GRC, each Op MP will remain to be backed by her/his own party in the sub-boundary however, as a whole, the full alternative parties mechanism can be mobilised for better representation and management. This may create an opening to a quantitative increase in Alternative representation made up of the best from amongst the alternatives, the credibility of alternatives may be boosted over time.
Thanks to all who are so passionate and earnest in doing something for the country. I take my hats off to you. Patriot and Zefly I am sure will make good leaders in time to come.
Many Singaporeans I feel tend to be politically apathetic as the fear factor is still very real. People associated speaking out/politics with arrest and negativity.
Yes this link may go when TOC closes it and people like you and me may move on to other links and the passion though still burning may evaporate over time.
If TOC wishes, this link can go on a bit longer so that more views can be collected. Those who are keen can then open up a Facebook or TOC can even consider a permanent link on this issue as apparently it is a serious and prominent concern of all who visited TOC.
Patriot and Zefly who are keen to meet up or do something concrete can ask for others who are here to consider face to face discussion on what are the next step to be done. You may want to start with a small group of 4 or 5 first as it is easier to work with as when you start too big you may have different views and agenda from too many people. The core group can then slowly get in more people once the initial group has gelled up. As spoken, I am in Sydney but my heart is in Singapore. Many Singaporeans whom I have met overseas are equally patriotic and very loyal citizens but feel helpless and trapped in Singapore.
I find it admirable that I can find others here who are as passionate and energetic as me to do something for the country. It is not just to oppose whatever the govt throws at us but to come up with concrete suggestions and strong views to enable the govt to see that some of it’s policies need fine tuning. For all we know, they have receive such views already. An interest group seems feasible staffed by like minded people. Maybe there are many out there who are waiting for one another to start. This down time needs strong minded people to do something for the country. Keep it up guys!
Dear Patriot, Zefly & Gilbert,
Allow me to share my view further.
172) patriot: The TOC people are not politicians, they are active citizens playing their constructive roles to the people, to the country.
I agree and I did say quite clearly that I do not think we need to become politicians to take up issues with the govt.
Bread and butter issues would be a good start to bring about the attention of the public to this space. This space has to become larger than what it is now. We have to create a new model of bringing news to the people. The real news, not the ones presented in the mainstream media. See my reply to Zefly below and you will realise that the msm papers are heading in the same direction – probably after reading my suggestion here …ha…ha…ha….
172) patriot: I like to say to You that my suggestion does not include clandestine unlawful activities and finally, I forwarded my suggestion as a question, reason being that, I was not very hopeful.
I am fully aware that your suggestion is one that is peaceful in nature and definitely not unlawful with no clandestine intention to conquer and rule. This is furthest from my mind also. All we want is to bring about a more attentive govt, one that listens to the people and feel their pains and make decisions based on these.
Should the day come when we have this power, the power of the voice of the people; how do you think this govt will react? One of 2 ways, as I mentioned earlier – one; to come after you, or, two, become more attentive and give what the people want. This is not fear. This is being rational. We know this govt and we know how it will react. Will we then be ready to take up arms and fight? The people must be united in this battle. It is not a battle for one or two. This is why I feel we need to reach out to as many as possible in the shortest possible time.
176) Zefly: The thing is, while TOC is a great site, it also faces the same problems as any alternative news website, where the discussions do not lead to something, as people would have moved on to other news to comment about.
Do we give up then? We need to find where the niche is and work towards it to get people to be continually interested or for some sort of conclusion so as to draw up a case that can be presented to the authorities that be.
We need a group of leaders here and this is one reason why I supported the call by Patriot to all who can meet this challenge to meet up face to face for discussion. It is a good call but we must keep our focus on online discussion to reach out to the masses in real time. Together & with TOC, we can then go on to present our cases to the authorities in a civilised and proper manner.
Zefly : Next is to hook up with other more thoughtful and prominent people. Like Warren Ferdinaz (my spelling sucks lol), Philip Jeyaratnam, Alex Au (?) the guy who runs yawning bread… maybe even Mr Brown (whom I believe has a very passionate serious side), Colin Goh etc etc.
Exactly, like I have said all along, we must navigate un-chartered waters.
The Singapore press must have been reading TOC. You would have noticed on page 6 of this morning’s TODAY newspaper where PN Balaji wrote an article titled: ‘Journalism Revisited, Revised’. He spoke about the ‘impending’ death of printed news in 3 to 5 years time. He challenged that a new business model on news reporting be found. He suggested that since there is no successful model to copy from, the next best thing to do is to throw as many darts as possible. Going online and online news is the way to go and in doing so, we need to hook up with like-minded partners and consolidate.
It is exactly what I have been suggesting. We need to test the boundaries to what we can do and achieve, throw darts. Based on Balaji’s calculation, we have 3 to 5 years to fight it out with the mainstream media. We need to get started now.
His other suggestion is for the printed media to go ‘tabloid’ where news are presented as stories. Well, we can tweak this suggestion and present our online discussion in story forms. We need to try new ideas.
173) Gilbert Goh Keow Wah: I don’t think that meeting up is harmful……..
Yes, it is not harmful but you will have problem trying to get people to meet up. Maybe TOC can conduct a poll on this.
183) Gilbert Goh Keow Wah: Thanks to all who are so passionate and earnest in doing something for the country. I take my hats off to you. Patriot and Zefly I am sure will make good leaders in time to come.
Allow me to join my voice to yours, Gilbert. We need more people like you guys. I thank you from the bottom of my heart. And to you too Gilbert, for being with us even as you are so far away. This is one of the benefits of online discussion as opposed to group meetings. And we do need all these contributions from all quarters, near and far.
183) Gilbert Goh Keow Wah: Patriot and Zefly who are keen to meet up or do something concrete can ask for others who are here to consider face to face discussion on what are the next step to be done. You may want to start with a small group of 4 or 5 first …………
Yup! . . . but do bear in mind that face to face need not necessarily be side by side. We can use the technology available to us to come ‘face to face’ like net/teleconferencing. Hook up our webcams and talk. We need to do this because the MSM will surely use the technology available to them to the fullest. We must compete as best as we can.
I must once again thank Patriot for asking such a simple but hard to answer question. We do go about writing and writing our thoughts but do we ever stop for a moment to think if we can put our thoughts into action. This is where most of us will need to do a lot of soul searching to be true to ourselves; and our country – the country we care and love.
Gemami P.
Quote, “Ha ha, You should have been there when I was preaching civil rights to student leaders at the Singapore High Commission in London. As soon as I started talking about it, the environment instantly became chilling cold. It is liked as if civil rights do not apply to student union bodies” Donaldson Tan Post#140, unquote.
Dear Mr Donaldson Tan; I don’t fare well here too, however, the enthusiasms shown by Gilbert, Zefly and gemami did give some comforts.
And the Group of Polytechnic Students petitioning for lower transport fares, provide some consolations. (This petition is an independent event that has nothing to do with this Thread) I believed the Students are emboldened by recent events at HLP.
Dear Donaldson Tan;
Could You kindly give me your expert opinions and understandings with regards the reactions we received and may I also request that You do me a kind personal favour of telling me your personal understandings(from reading my posts here) of what I have commented here. No obligation, feel free to decline, criticise and whatever You deem fit. I thank You !
patriot
My imagination will go far and wide tiredsingaporean, and i completely understand how you feel, as i am one who shares the same burden with you. People here such as gemani, patriot and zefty are all fellow brothers who suffer the same fate as us. The elite of the country do not care for us, and the only ones who dared stand before them and fought back are either dead or jailed. I bear the same name as the great man who died, and i will join them upon completion of my education. I have a dream that one day, all singaporeans, regardless of race or religion need not suffer under these elitist scum. And the only ideology that can solve this problem is definitely populist. Perhaps an upcoming party can take this into consideration when they fight against them in the next GE.
all those who are interested, might i suggest that we actually do talk on msn instead of here? it might actually be more lively and active as people are put in live conversations. if you are willing, then it would be great.
Hi JBA,
The problem here is that all of us here may not even have a chance to vote in the next GE, God knows what can happen prior to the GE, right? they may just abolish the entire GE when the alternative parties get to much of the people support by quoting their usual lame excuses that the country is facing some sort of internal security threat, then what? whether you people agree or not, what can you people do? riots? c’mon everyone of us knows damn well how the ruling party plays their game and how they turned around and bite you guys back after we voted for them all these years. Only sad to say that our older folks has continuously being conned into buying their stories when they start giving out sweeties just before the GE, and almost immediately after securing for another term, they starts taking back many time more than they gave out, knowing that there is nothing you people can do to them, so the only hope now lies with the newer and younger generations to fight on for your own rights, for the rights of the citizens and the rights of a democratic nation. The strength is in the people now and hopefully with the force from all international bodies to do something just and right for the people of singapore.
188) tiredsingaporean
Absolutely correct that we might not get the chance to vote. However, we must still look on the bright side. We can still reach out to those who will be voting and help them make the right choice.
Previously, at every GE, there was only the msm that reported things according to the agenda of the PAP. Things have changed.
We must really, really (I cannot stress enough) make the effort to reach as wide an audience as we can online. We have to start right now, right here. We have from now till the next GE to bring up the profile of TOC. My hope is for TOC to be so newsworthy and reliable that Singaporeans can see it as a dependable source of news – news without the filters – as raw as it is.
It has to be a platform for Singaporeans to write their own news. Just imagine if Singaporeans are to tune in to TOC during election time. It will not only give the msm a run for their money but more importantly it can bring across the opposition’s cause and election messages effecively.
This is where I am pinning my hope on.
gemami and tiredsingaporean, i also know that riotting is not the way for us educated singaporeans, but im sure both of you’ll know bout thaksin and suharto and how the people broke free from their regime.
gemami, i totally agree with your plight and i have no disagreements in the idea of not having another GE, coz if im not wrong, my parents did mention to me about the government threatening the citizens of cheng san to vote for them, or face dire consequences in the GE of 1999 or 1998. But don’t you think, that if they are so willing to even cut our voting rights, they wouldnt restrict the way we post media or other infomation? furthermore, it is not the young gen that votes for the pap, they do noe abt current situations and vote wisely. It is the older gen that blindly votes for the pap. worse being is that sadly, the older gen is not really in touch with IT. how do you propose that we get the real truth out? through pamphlet passing in the streets?? chee tried that and ended up paying 500k fine for that. so in conclusion, i can only say that there is one way. Russia, indonesia and even malaysia had this, its time we had it. Do not by any chance name this method, for they will be frightened, and because of that, you can go sit down and drink kopi with gopalan nair behind bars
Yes Gem, I too will do my part for our nation like everyone else here. Infact, I’ve already spreading the awareness of TOC to many of my contacts and urging them to participate in this forum, hope TOC grows to be the biggest alternative to our mainstream media soon.
cheers!
A major warning for everyone, if this forum becomes too anti “Pillage And Plunder”,
they will start observing here, and start arresting those who are involved. This is the major fear factor for all those who dare oppose. And many people who are bloggers have been jailed for breaching the law. So people, watch your words and make them as vague as possible, while still getting the point through.
183) Gilbert Goh Keow Wah: Thanks to all who are so passionate and earnest in doing something for the country. I take my hats off to you. Patriot and Zefly I am sure will make good leaders in time to come.
ahahahaha… tell that to anyone who knows me and they will die laughing too.
188) People here such as gemani, patriot and zefty are all fellow brothers who suffer the same fate as us. The elite of the country do not care for us, and the only ones who dared stand before them and fought back are either dead or jailed.
JBA, let’s not get too worked up here. I don’t expect the ‘elites’ to care so much for me either that this place becomes a welfare state. Personally, I think the truth lies somewhere between the government’s statement that they really care for us, and the extreme opposition’s stand that they only care for themselves. The government likes to say that the current system of wealth distribution is the fairest, and rocking the boat will make us lose our competitive edge etc etc… without enough data and information there is no way of knowing. As for the PAP’s record of crushing dissent, every shining nation on the hill will have it’s dark moments. Not to say it’s forgivable or anything, but if you ask around, many will find that they are ready to overlook this for the ‘prosperity’ we have now. Screaming and shouting about isn’t gonna change anything. You don’t see Obama harping that George Bush stole the election in 2000. You wanna do something for the people? Be level-headed. And also give credit where it is due.
Lastly, me, being the net-sparstic, I dunno if the administrator has my email address. But if you do, whoever you are, think would be great to start a mailing list or something. My suggestion is to hook up with like-minded people and start some discussion or something. I know only talk-rooster-sing-song at the moment, but might lead to something. Pro-establishment people are warmly welcomed too. But what won’t be allowed is trolling and intolerance, and namecalling and stuff. The best way of being pro-singapore is, I believe, the Middle Way. (i have no freaking idea what i’m talking about lol)
Frankly speaking, TOC is a public discussion platform for any singaporeans to speak up their minds. Those who are here including myself do not belongs to nor represent any alternative party. If the ruling party feels that it is a threat to them, then so much so they have to start doing the right things for the people instead. We are not here to start a riot nor do we have the ability to start one, we are here to let the people knows what is happening in and around singapore, is that a crime? I am just participating as an individual wanting to know and let know what I believe as an individual citizen of singapore, and I do believe each and everyone of us citizens of sg do agree to what I am talking about.
well, im not worked up zefly, and i will give credit to the pap in the past. but now, it is far less than anything applaudable. there is a saying that if one sits in a chair for too long, his skin will be stuck on the seat and it will be tougher to remove him. same case scenario here don’t you agree? and as for the people who i was referring to who were dead or jailed, im referring to JBJ and Chee. Personally, although many people dislike chee, i feel that he is actually a great leader and a true example of bravery. Chee if im not mistaken is a neuro surgeon or something like that. This clearly shows that he was wealthy and was actually part of the elite. but he decided to break free and help us, and look what happened to him.
As for JBJ, calling him a superhero is an understatement. In his cases against the pap, if im not mistaken, “Emperor” actually banned the privy council and the queen council from coming to singapore for political cases. what do you deem of this.
Lastly, zelfy, are you willing also to meet up? i for one sure would. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I feel that the beginning of the end will start with common people meeting up and discussing, followed by larger groups, then it will progress from there. Until this comes through, i suggest we might discuss on msn, where we can have an active convo, instead of forums where it is time consuming, and the articles may become ”stale” before the receiving party reads it.
well, im not worked up zefly, and i will give credit to the pap in the past. but now, it is far less than anything applaudable. there is a saying that if one sits in a chair for too long, his skin will be stuck on the seat and it will be tougher to remove him. same case scenario here don’t you agree? and as for the people who i was referring to who were dead or jailed, im referring to JBJ and Chee. Personally, although many people dislike chee, i feel that he is actually a great leader and a true example of bravery. Chee if im not mistaken is a neuro surgeon or something like that. This clearly shows that he was wealthy and was actually part of the elite. but he decided to break free and help us, and look what happened to him.
As for JBJ, calling him a superhero is an understatement. In his cases against the pap, if im not mistaken, “Emperor” actually banned the privy council and the queen council from coming to singapore for political cases. what do you deem of this.
Lastly, zelfy, are you willing also to meet up? i for one sure would. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I feel that the beginning of the end will start with common people meeting up and discussing, followed by larger groups, then it will progress from there. Until this comes through, i suggest we might discuss on msn, where we can have an live convo, instead of forums where it is time consuming, and the articles may become ”stale” before the receiving party reads it.
Thanks Zefly(Post#193);
for the Post(#193) which I hope will result in a better understanding on the Question I posed on whether netizens will fraternize and pool their ideas and resolves in person(face to face), for more concrete actions rather than mere postings in the Net. In short, to put the ideas into actions and not just theorizing.
It seems that the Question has been misunderstood for a call for gathering of all netizens for collective actions supposedly on or for a political motive. I reread my comments here a few times and am certain that they have no such connotations.
I supposed I am guilty of ambiguity to some extent, but I did said that netizens seek liked minded netizens to fraternize, which means the individual netizen sorting the others, including groups, to connect with on his/her own. I did not suggest any venue nor any agenda for collective action, in fact this is furthest from my mind. What I did imply though, is for netizens to walk the talk.
Personally, I would meet up with others outside Cyberspace if approached and the other party(ies) appears to be of same frequency, though it has not happened. I don’t mind having a cup/glass with someone I can clique with in the Net or in the real world. I am a social animal.
I was on the verge of weaning off from the Net when my children returned to Singapore and I do not need the MSN anymore, but the Financial Meltdown and the opening up of HLP filled the Net with much interesting contents. I also begin to find more youths getting on to the scene and they gave me the impetus to stay as I feel their(youths) participations are very positive towards the Discourse. They boost my hope that apathy will be beaten, the sooner the better. In fact Commenter Observer(HG-SG) and I were been encouraged by some of these youngsters in their postings, You could read them in TOC.
I would say we are all trying to contribute to better our society, I do not see myself any different from the rest in Cyberspace, all of us are sharing informations, views and ideas INDIVIDUALLY in the Net, it would be better to combine the efforts and make them work like the way Mr Tan Kin Lian and Mr Leong Sze Hian exemplified.
patriot
I see that we have one more keen participant here in ZBA. Well done!
I believe those who are keen to meet up to carry this further are all in their 40s-50s – correct me if I am wrong. I am in my mid 40s. I am sure some are younger so kudos to you!
For too long, we have associated politics with demonstration, political partying and arrest. This got to stop as it is further from the truth.
Overseas, people gather to discuss political issues (often those that affect the lives of the common people) openly. Students in many unis in Australia have political groups and they meet regularly to talk about political issues that affect the country. Some even demonstrate in their unis peacefully for issues that they deem outrightly wrong. They are not politicians nor violent but simply openly demonstrate what they feel is wrong as a group.
They are many interest groups here too. Some are envrionmentalists, others family activists and some for animal lovers. You be surprised that there is a political group here in Australia called Happy Family and they stand for election!
What we can do here Patriot, Zefly, Gemami and ZBA is to start a peace loving interest group that stands for a certain ideology. We can advocate for issues that affect the lives of the common people – e.g. bread and butter, the poor and needy and unfair treatment of elderly, etc. We can find that currently there are a few active interest groups now in Singapore – Aware – they advocate for equal rights for women and Aninal Lovers group – they take care of issues that concern the welfare of animals. Many family interest groups operate in Singapore e.g. Fatherhood, Single Parents, etc.
An interest group needs registration and this can easily be done over online registration. It is considered a society so people who participate need to register their names and particulars making it very above board and legal. It is up to the authorities to approve the society thus giving credibility and legaility to the activities of the interest group. This will also allow one to see how much leeway and freedom the authorities will give to further expression and space. If my gut feeling is right, they are trying to give more room to such peaceful groups. Opening up of HLP is a big giant step for Singapore and I am glad that LHL provided that extra room for more freedom of expression. We are not political but more concern with bread and butter issues, etc. Politics mean you want to start a political group like WP and stand for election. We are not.
Naturally, interest groups make up of like minded people who will try to push their interests to authorities for attention and action. They will do alot of running around to gather feedback, invite the public to voice their opinion on issues either online or otherwise and even do up petitions for the govt to view. In a away, I see TOC as an interest group but online mode. It’s venture into the HLP may later see itself generate into an interest group for sure.
So far, if I am right, there is no interest group here that operates in this manner without any linkage to political parties. As I can see, none of us want to be associated with politics or register ourselves as a party so an interest group concern with the issues that affect the lives of the common people can be a legal feasible operative for us to gather and talk about such issues.
Any comments anyone?
Gilbert, i feel that is a great idea, but you must understand that today, although there are interest groups that are rich and influential ( bread and butter = red cross?) , they still cannot instill the influence and authority that a political party can. What can be done right now is actually to open TOC into a much broader scope, so much so that it becomes as famous as websites like friendster or facebook. This will help people to see the real truth in whats acutally going on, instead of getting fed with propaganda and lies from the current mainstream media. And for the meeting patriot, its basically a meeting to help clearify our ideas face to face and discuss on what can be done to get the real info to the common man of singapore.
198) Gilbert
There are quite a fair bit of constraints when you compare the general functions of interest groups as compared to, say, online blogging on socio-political issues.
The most telling will be its own self-inflicted restrictions because an interest group has to subscribe to a certain interest. It is made even worse if it is a legally registered group. Can it tackle issues outside of the registered ‘interest’ they subscribe to?
I do not know but the danger here is that should they deviate from its registered purpose, then it can become an easy target for the authorities especailly if the ‘deviation’ is of a politcal nature.
Hi Folks;
It will be discourteous of me if I do not bid goodbye.
Let me say good luck, good health and good writings and goodbye to all.
From: Yours Faithfully patriot.
Thanks for all your comments ZBA, Gemami and why is Patriot bidding us goodbye? IS something wrong? Please explain Patriot. If I have offended you in anyway I apologise.
ZBA – I think that you got me wrong here as Red Cross represented a welfare social organisation that really provide humanitarian assistance to home and abroad but they do not push forth their interests to the authorities. An interest group meets and discusses issues that concern a certain topic e.g. family or environment and would present them to the authorities or media for attention.
Gemami – I share your fears as if legally registered, an interest group can’t go beyond it’s boundaries of interest e.g. welfare or humanistic issues and they also have to abide by the code of ethics. Nevertheless, registration of an interest group brings about legality and officialdom. My only fear for a non-partisan free-to-view group is that what we do is “unoffocial” that is who that we represent, does the authorities recognise our voice and will we get into trouble if we do too much? The general feeling is that there are still certain OB markers out there and I don’t want to side track them if possible. We are thus testing unchartered waters here.
PAtriot – I don’t understand your statement so it may be good to clarify further. I hope that despire disagreeing we still don’t lost our heart-beat here i.e to do something for our country. I may be portrayed as pro-government here adovcating registration but i am just trying to check oursevles abit unless all we want to do is just to come together and chit-chat about political issues without obligation which is also fine. This could be the first step.