After tending to the garden for 21 years, all the town council could do was to poll 10 residents. Come on, you can do better than this!

From the tv interviews, it is clear that more than 2 residents felt strongly against such a move.

Our Property Officer then surveyed residents of Blk 819 around the garden area, and out of the 10 households spoken with, only 2 residents, Mdm Lim Loan and Mr Lim Ah Shuan claimed ownership of the garden. – Mr Goh Juak Kin, GM of Ang Mo Kio GRC.

Only two? If the PO intend to do their job properly, they would have spend more time to engage with old folks and the neighbours. Everybody knows this garden is unofficial, so who would even claim ownership to the TC?

Community-In-Bloom gardens are a joint project between the Town Council and Residents’ Committees (RC), designed to foster camaraderie among community gardeners while ensuring proper management and central control. – Mr Goh Juak Kin, GM of Ang Mo Kio GRC.

That is how old folks are denied a sense of ownership. You take control away, you take away the sense of ownership.

Over the years, however, the maintenance of the garden was neglected, and very few people came forward to look after it. In spite of that, the Town Council did not take any action against the garden. This was until we received feedback from residents about the presence of rats in the vicinity.

State of negligence by whose standards? Do we have any photos to counter the claim that it has not been taken care of?

I am quite ashamed that “officers from National Environment Agency (NEA) and the Town Council conducted a joint inspection at the said garden to investigate the source. Rat burrows were detected at the garden.”

Was it a RAT problem or the humble FIELD MICE working in symbiotic relationship with the herb garden.

“Fairly unkempt state” is subjective and surely cannot mean sewer, rubbish, left-over organic decaying food strewn where RATS would frequent. Strange that there was no mention of flies!

TC Officers – there are ACTUAL RATS where I live in the “fairly unkempt state” of our clean HDB. We sometimes see them scurring at those odd, unexpected moments near the rubbish chute or by drains and don’t even talk about occassional cockroaches or stay cats.

What do you suggest should be done? Call in ‘all those experts’ and Destroy all the buildings. Destroy all the people!

Typical stupid way of doing things by GM of AMK GRC. Central control, proper management. These are what people like himself and Lee Bee Wah would want to see. “Proper management” and “central control” are not what build communities. Communities are built from ground up, and it has to be a coming together of the community members for a single-minded purpose, such as keeping the herbal garden. What the “big shots” should have done is to get to know the group of old folks associated with the garden and communicate the TC’s concerns, and if necessary, put in some effort to rope in the RCs or some grassroot people to help make the herbal garden into something “more acceptable” to the community at large. Unfortunately it didnt happen that way — typical of high-minded and dumb management people – they only know how to destroy a “problem” which at the same time take away something inherently good in the process. This is just another instance of their lack of true regard for community spirit; it’s all just a lot of bulltalk. The only real “community” they want is an APPROVED & CENTRALLY-CONTROLLED community. This brings to mind another stupid MP – from Tampines I think – who barb-wired void decks to prevent kids from playing football. That’s how they solve problems. (Did he lock up his kids in the storeroom, does anyone know?)

Another typical excuse from these PAP people — they always cite “some people complain” or “some feedback”. Because of some “feedback” they threw out the entire garden. For all you know, the feedback comments may not have been totally for or against. It could have been something like “yah, it’s a bit untidy as you said….” but they didnt say “but we dont mind” because the Town Council didnt ask whether the neighbours minded at all. Based on the typical retort by these PAP Town Council people to justify their crass actions, surely it is only right that their masters should all remove themselves from office because 3 to 4 out of every 10 Singaporeans in their GRC didnt want them around? Right? Got people complain what!

Mr Goh Juak Kin, the General Manager of the Ang Mo Kio-Yio Chu Kang Town Council, THANK YOU FOR THIS LETTER AND EXPLANATION. IT HAS GIVEN US A BETTER GRASP OF THE SITUATION.

My humble suggestion is to start a “Community In Bloom Garden” at Blk 819 and utilize the existing manpower, creativity and community kampong spirit there.

With the culture of fear endemic in Singapore especially with dealing with government authorities, many would shy away from responsibility or even whistle blowing.

Resurrect the garden again with a “Community In Bloom Garden” at Blk 819.

mice or rats – i don’t think it makes much of a difference. honestly speaking, i would rather they remove the garden too if i’m a resident there, especially on the ground floor. it’s rodents, mind you – i’ll choose health over the plants anytime.

There are many creative ways to control “field mice problem” or the ““fairly unkempt state” of the garden.

There are so many creative solutions to this very simple problem . . . .but certainly not to destroy the whole garden.

NOW THAT THE GARDEN IS GONE – Resurrect the garden again with a “Community In Bloom Garden” at Blk 819 with a Community Spirit Par Excellence.

I saw Channel U airing their clarification last night too – anyone saw? At least there are now both sides of the story – which is only fair. I seriously doubt they will dare to fabricate a big lie at this stage and make it known to the whole of Singapore.

Gardens are visible in most HDB Estate, some well maintained and some not.

Rats and stray cats are even more common, visit most markets at night and one is likely to see rats running about and cockroaches on meat cutting boards.

As for rats, they are common in most drains at HDB Estates.

Presently, one of my sixth floor neighbour is having problems with rats at the corridor outside her unit.

Rid the pest and solve the problems. Please do not rid the problems to solve an issue.

patriot

(((( 9) patriot on October 31st, 2008 1.20 am Gardens are visible in most HDB Estate, some well maintained and some not.

Rats and stray cats are even more common, visit most markets at night and one is likely to see rats running about and cockroaches on meat cutting boards.

As for rats, they are common in most drains at HDB Estates.

Presently, one of my sixth floor neighbour is having problems with rats at the corridor outside her unit.

Rid the pest and solve the problems. Please do not rid the problems to solve an issue.

patriot ))))

Haha. Remove the market please, because it is a hotbed for the infestation of rodents. Get rid of your sixth floor neighbour please, since the rats are often near the vicinity of this neighbour. That’s the right way to solve problems — the PAP Town Council way!

Dear All,

I wish to correct this factual error:-

“On 20 October 2008, our Property Officer and horticulture contractor observed that the residents had already transplanted some plants into pots. The garden was eventually cleared on the same day, after having given the residents more than 2 weeks’ notice in advance.

On 23 October 2008, the Town Council received an email from resident Mr Mohd Rafiz Bin Mohyi Hapipi, expressing his unhappiness at the “sudden” removal of the abovementioned garden. On 24 October 2008, our Property Officer called Mr Mohd Rafiz personally to explain the Town Council’s actions, but he refused to accept our explanation and therefore reported the matter to the media.”

On 20 October, only several scattered small plots of plants along Blk 819 facing the field was removed. For several days, no further action was carried out surrounding the block. It was only on 23rd October that the complete removal of the Herb Garden in question adjacent to Yishun Street 81 was carried out.

If GM wrong abt what was cleared when, can he be wrong on other things.

AMK Town Council, yr credibility is at stake.

Pss BTW AMKTC, yr GM invested yr funds in DBS HN5 or minibonds or other toxic assets?

As to survey, is ten fair sample? I doubt it. Maybe AMKTC should get Minibond Mr Tan to teach GM stats. He actuary.

The same people who would theoretically shave off all their hair if they think their hair is messy!

I’m actually quite glad that the Town Council stepped forth to give an explanation first-hand; I’ve been waiting for it and this will at least give the story from both sides.

So in a way, some residents do know about the imminent removal of the garden before it was conducted. There’s also a mention of a 2 weeks notice, though I’m not sure what’s the nature of that (i.e. were notices placed near the garden?). In such a case, while we can question if the spread of information was sufficient, at least we know there were attempts to inform the residents (which was something I was looking for, originally).

As for the rat issue, I think it’s more of a trigger than a cause. If the garden is in a state of neglect as claimed by the council, then I think it should be removed if no one is willing to bring it up to a tidy state. It doesn’t need to take the rats to require a removal of the garden, in my opinion.

So ultimately, the concern is, is the garden truly in a state of neglect? And were most residents informed (or at least the attempt made) about this removal?

If this is indeed the same gentleman, then I do know Mr Goh. He was my former Commanding Officer back in my NS days. A good and well-meaning person.

I welcome the explanation, though I felt it could have been handled in a more people-oriented way. Helping people understand why the old garden had to go would have been a good first step. After clearing the garden of the rodent problem, the council could then have followed up with a program to help restore that plot of land for use by those residents again, with information on how to avoid a repeat infestation. They could also have chosen to be nice and provided resources to help the residents restore the garden they put so much effort into.

I do not think their actions were wrong, but they missed an opportunity to do that little something extra.

14) Jackson Tan

I think the answers to your questions are very obvious if you go by the footages presented on tv.

The interveiwees were all shocked by the sudden removal the herb garden and most were not even aware prior to the removal that such action were to be carried out.

If we look upon mediacorp as a credible news station then how come it did not bother to interveiw MR Goh to get his side of the story.

In this aspect, I believe the reply from Mr Goh was crafted as an afterthought and it serves not only as a damage control piece but also serves to shift the blame back to the people who tended to the garden.

16) gemani

The interveiwees were all shocked by the sudden removal the herb garden and most were not even aware prior to the removal that such action were to be carried out.

Is it? I’ve viewed the Chinese news report embedded the TOC article, and while many showed that they were upset, I can’t say for sure that they’re shocked. And if you pay careful attention (which I must admit I didn’t when I watched it the first time before Juak Kin’s response), some of the interviewees seem aware of the removal.

If we look upon mediacorp as a credible news station then how come it did not bother to interveiw MR Goh to get his side of the story.

Ah… but do you see Mediacorp as a credible source of news? Do we? Personally, I’m sceptical about the news giving a proper view of the real turn of events. Think about it: which story will sell better? Moreover, Juak Kin may need time to check to ensure that his response is true; after all, Town Councils are centres of bureaucracy.

Moreover, if you wish to make a valid comparison, note that the news report interviewed and obtained the opinions of five people only.

17) Jackson Tan

shock, upset, unhappy . . . i admit, I might have used the wrong word here but the message is still the same – most of the residents of blk 819 were not even aware that it was to be removed.

The TC officer spoke with only 10 residents in an entire block, and out of these 10 people, the TC probably continued to communicate with the two who claimed ownership, and, most likely, these were the only two who knew in advance that the garden was to be removed.

TC: “…….out of the 10 households spoken with, only 2 residents, claimed ownership…”.

Sure, the TC claimed to have spoken with other residents as well, who did not wish to maintain the garden anymore, but were these residents involved in the maintenance of the garden in the first place or were they the ones who made the ‘rodents’ complaint? Who were these ‘other’ residents? The other 8 interviewed?

TC: “…Other residents whom our Property Officer spoke with also indicated that they did not wish to maintain the garden anymore……”

It is a huge discredit to Rafiz who brought up this issue because there were some more ‘other residents’ who woke up to find the garden gone overnight.

To cut a long story short, I feel the TC has cleverly played with words to support its action. Words like ‘residents’ are used to give the impression that there was ample consultation. How can 10 (probably only 2) be deemed to the the voice of the ‘residents’ at large?

The news report:

http://www.xin.sg/article.php?article=24982&st=dtl

义顺草药园遭铲平 居民愤愤不平
26 October 2008 2147hrs
吴俍祥

 义顺组屋有一个20多年历史的草药园，因防控鼠患和蚊虫滋生而被强行铲平，有的年长者看着心血被毁，夜不能眠。

六家人多年来的心血，一个小时内被夷为平地。义顺81街第819座组屋的年长人士心情更是受到重创。

“我妈妈心情不好受，差不多几天睡不着，她说，她的心血全都没了。”

“草药园被铲平，伤了年长人士，我亲眼看见一名邻居落泪，他说草药园是它的命根，他告诉我，这是它21年的心血。”

及时保存下来的草药只好种在盆子里。草药原本有十多种，有的可治内伤、有的加强视力，有的治咳嗽风热。

“20多年来我们没有看过有蚊子有老鼠，它（市镇会）说有老鼠洞，全部要拔掉，全部不可以种这样子，没办法，如果不拔掉，它要出罚单。”

“这个地方给老人家打发时间不要紧嘛，它（市镇会）说不可以，我跟它讲那个香茅种在那边，那个是驱蚊的，留在那边不要紧，它说不可以。”

居民们恳请市镇会让他们恢复种植，毕竟草药园不仅是年长居民活动筋骨的好地方，也是居民的情感联系站。

>>This brings to mind …. who barb-wired void decks to prevent kids from playing football. That’s how they solve problems.

http://www.mrbrown.com/blog/2007/09/stone-seats.html

18) gemani

Actually, that is precisely my concern with regards to the TC’s reply. Were the residents sufficiently informed? For example, were notices placed near the garden in all four languages explaining the situation (I doubt so)? Or some notice board of the TC? After all, Juak Kin did say that

The garden was eventually cleared on the same day, after having given the residents more than 2 weeks’ notice in advance.

He, however, did not elaborate on what notice were given, which leads me to suspect (without certainty, of course) that it’s some sort of obscure notice that no one pays attention to. This, if so, will be a fault on the TC’s side, but it is certainly not as bad as the initial picture I had.

And suppose sufficient notice were given to the residents, then any residents who want to keep the garden would’ve approached the TC, and the TC would then have explained the situation (i.e. someone to take charge, and cleaning up the mess etc.). The herb garden may not be destroyed in that case. Then there’s not so much issue of whether the TC has surveyed enough residents or not.

Back to the questions on the number of people the TC approached, all I know is there’s at least 10, with 2 associated with the garden. Yes, this is not representative of the residents, but how much is representative? Everyone? I’m not so sure about you, but I wouldn’t be too pleased if my consent is sought for every time there’s a minor change in some parts of the estate I live in. Neither will I be pleased with the efficiency, because such a comprehensive survey will mean that even minor changes will take days or even weeks to effect (and then the next TOC article will be “Why so slow?”)

All in all, I’m fine with the TC asking only 10 people; it is meant as some sort of informal survey anyway. What I’m more concerned with is the degree to which the decision to inform the residents were made known to them, because it is the time when they could take action to stop it.

Curious thought: there were two who claimed ownership of the garden. When they said that they no longer wished to keep the garden, did they let the TC know of other residents who also “own” the garden? And did they let the other “owners” know the decision?

sarek_home(Post 19)

thank You for posting the Chinese News Report about the Incident.

I watched the Programme, the Chinese Lady interviewed appeared to be residing on the ground floor with the Garden either facing or behind her unit.

She lamented the removal or rather the destruction of the said herb garden. There are mentions of notice(s) to the residents. Can the relevant people please share with us here how it(they) were done. I thank You here in advance.

patriot

21) Jackson Tan

Generally, I think we are in agreement on most of the points we touched on.

And yes, I won’t be too please either if I have to be consulted on small changes in my estate. Unfortunately, in this instance, the removal of 21 years of tender-loving-care of a herbs garden is not quite a small matter – unless one is totally devoid of feelings.

I can be fine with TC surveying 10 people, but they must be the correct people.

This is why I questioned if the ones who made the complaints in the first place were also included in this group of 10; or; if the 10 people surveyed did not even care if the garden catches fire, for that matter.

From Rafiz’s other thread, we now know that the herbs garden were the hard work of residents from 4 blocks of flats. Now, surely, taking the words of 2 is grossly inadequate representation of accurate views.

Also, we should not even attempt to blame the 2 poor residents, suddenly thrown into the limelight, because they said they no longer wish to continue tending to the garden. They were probably asked a ‘yes’ or ‘no’ question.

Q. Do you want to continue to care for the garden?
A. No.

The town council had already explained the background of the case. They have their roles and responsibilities to upkeep and maintain the estate. The staff are just doing their job in ensuring that the area is neat and tidy and free from rodents. If the town council does not maintain the estate well, the residents will complain aganist them. Let us all be more understanding and forgiving. Can we close the matter and move on?

23) Fair Resident

Sounds very fair to me. Let the TC people get on with their jobs. After all, what is 21 years compared to a whole lifetime – heck! why not say – eternity?….

… one last question before i ‘move on’.

where were the rodents hiding these past 21 years? …..hmmmm…. the recession must have got to them that they have to leave their homes to come out to look for food ……hmmmmmmmmm……….. poor rodents, where will they go for food now that the garden is gone? …… Community-In-Bloom? ……Oh no!….let’s take precautionary action before they remove the plants there too…….

Thanks sarek_home;

for posting the Chinese News Report. I watched it on Channel 8 and it appeared to me that the Chinese Lady interviewed lamented the removal or rather the demolition of the Herb Garden. The others interviewed, as telecasted, expressed disappoints as well, none seem to complain.

From the Footage, the said Garden seemed to be either infront or behind the said interviewed ladys’ ground floor unit.

There are mentions of notice(s) been posted to the residents, can the Relevant People please tell how that notification(s) was done. I thank You in advance.

23) gemani

Haha actually I wasn’t blaming those two residents who were “owners” of the garden. In the lack of information (on how the questions were asked, and how they responded and such, and also if they knew other “owners” etc.), no blame can be levelled on them. It’s just a curious question on my side: I always find that there is insufficient information for me to make a firm stand (and I’m too lazy to seek them out)…

In any case, I hope that the residents affected can find other activities to engage in, since the garden will not be replaced. And it’s a good lesson for the TC as well on handling such matters in the future.

And finally, I think we ought to thank and learn from Rafiz on being proactive in raising community issues. It’s one thing for us to make comments here about what’s done right and what’s done wrong, it’s another to put words into actions.

27) Jackson Tan

agreeing with you again, Rafiz has done a great job. i don’t know if i would have done the same.

Suppressive and oppressive.

Even a small fry also copy cat.

If you look at it objectively, some people want to keep the plot, but almost none polled were willing to maintain it. Then let the rats continue to grow their population there? So how?