I have hoped TOC would write about this issue and TOC has not failed me.

Sincerely, I appreciate your contribution to the Singaporean community.

It was said that gov cannot guarantee investments will be safe. This was in response to the 10k lehman investors.

TC also has lehman investments. So, is what he said applicable to the TC scenario? So, who is responsible and accountable for losses and successes of these investments? Can we have the name please? Is there anyone to Guarantee the safety of these investments? If no guarantees, does that not mean there is potential risk of big boo boo some day?

I am clueless.

Selamat wong khia soo

That guy said ““Maybe a couple of percentage out of the total investment portfolio (were used in those investments), so the exposure will not affect the overall investment portfolio or the sinking funds per se. There’s definitely no fear that any of the PAP town councils’ sinking funds will be wiped out. All the supporting PAP town councils’ sinking funds are in safe hands.””

>>> What does a couple percentage mean? why not reveal the figures clearer?
Is the economy predictable? Even greenspan is clueless and not sure why his plan failed. So who is in the right position to assure? Would be helpful if given more concrete information and how much was sank in.

Which TC involved ? No one here knows?

What is the impact on HDB dwellers? Any losses? If so, how much ? Who much is not much?

regards
the best job in the world

PAP cadre always think they are damn smart. Yet another “Honest Mistake, Let’s Move On”!!

In the beginning the US banks also claimed only a little bit kenna . Then more banks also came out to claim a little bit kenna. Then cannot tahan , the truth came out from one bank and then followed by more banks. Then hell broke out.
Hope the TCs wont’ follow this pattern. A little bit only????

PAP must take very good care in handling this matter , because as the recent cases happened here in this country, one can tell that people is losing confident in PAP, only that we do not have a public poll or survey on the rate for government support or confidence.
and this towncouncil matter is WORSE, it relates directly to MONEY which PAP has been claiming themselves very CLEAN for the past 43 years. but even you dont put the money into your own pocket, but missuse them is also BAD enough to turn down ones credibility.
So,how does PAP going to handle it well, determine our confident and future support of the party.

I was about to log off when I read this longer quote which ended like this:

“The public do not have to worry . . . there will not be enough funds in order to take care of their needs.” – Halimah Yacob, Jurong Town Council.

READ IT AGAIN

“The public do not have to worry . . . there will not be enough funds in order to take care of their needs.” – Halimah Yacob, Jurong Town Council.

AM I READING RIGHT!

Before the facts are out, let’s not jump the gun. Sure, the current investment climate is volatile, but without looking at the overall returns, it is premature to criticise. For eg, a TC may have made a $200,000 gain last year and lost $100,000 this year–on balance, the returns is still positive.

However, this is a good topic for discussion simply because the TC reserves may have become excessive. In that case, TCs may want to provide some rebates to residents, esp during economic downturns. From an economic viewpoint, the money (not collected due to rebates) could be used more optimally by residents rather than earning low returns by TCs. And having the same fee applied across all estates may not be appropriate since newer estates usually cost less to maintain.

Took a quick look at a couple of TCs’ websites and notice that they provide annual reports online, each containing a section on financials that is audited by an accounting firm. No detailed breakdown of investments and it seems the investments are managed by fund managers. Maybe those who are so inclined and have time can scrutinise the reports for more info.

I think TC reserves should be operated on a non-profit basis. Keep enough for upgrading projects and general maintenance and the rest return to the residents in the form of SC rebates.

Invest in your residents is better than throwing money to fund managers.

#8 anon
I support that. In fact, it shud be made clear that the monies can only be left in guaranteed products like govt bonds or fixed deposits. TC have no business in investing, even if these are handled by fund managers. If they have such a huge surplus that they dont know what to do with it, it is either a case of a) the charges are too high or b) the TC is not spending enough to see to the welfare of the residenets, You choose

How transparent are Town Council finances? Do they make quarterly or annual spending reports to the public? Do they publish a budget? Do they report of their investments and investment returns? Do they publish information on income, whether from conservancy fees or otherwise?

Right now, I have no comments, just a lot of questions. Shows how little I know about how Town Councils operate … PAP or opposition.

Hmmm … Mr. Low Thia Khiang is supposed to serve my constituency. I have a perfect right to go extract that information from the Hougang Town Council (esp since I voted for him) :).

Good article, I’m bugged more by the transparency issue than the fact that they potentially lost money!

Words of assurance are worthless. The town council must reveal the exact amount of loses they have incurred in this financial crisis in order to reassure
Singaporeans that their funds are properly and well managed.

As long as our cabinet minister find no need to account to GIC and Temasek holdings investment, TC will take a leaf from them.
Even if we cry till cow comes home, nothing will be divulge.

All the secrecy, Lehmon Brothers, DBS handling of High notes, how many repaid, how much paid, electricity tariffs tied to fuel, not natural gas prices, cost of HDB –

It is a big joke.

Dear #6,

I had taken the quote in verbatim from the CNA website. So unless they had made an error in their orginial report, then that should be accurate. Yes, I did a double take myself when I wrote the article but decided to trust CNA on their accuracy.

Dear #7 (Cool),

Good point. I had taken a look at the various town council site. Books can only tell you so much not the breakdown of their individual investment. While the article aim was for transparency, I believe you have a strong point that the sinking fund is excessive and give the recession we are experiencing, TC should look at reducing conservancy charges or rebates to ease the residents.

Regards
Lim Chih-Yang

I’m checking my own TC, Pasir Ris-Punggol TC.
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/uploads/AR0607.pdf

Funny thing is there is only one annual report, 1 April 2006 – 31 March 2007. Where is the rest and the latest 07/08 report? So much for accountability…

Total sinking fund as at Mar 07 was $135 millions.

1) Why is there a need to mandatory transfer a minimum amount to sinking fund? $20 millions in my TC case. (See page 21 and 34) What is the reason for the “minimum required by law” clause to exist?

2) In page 39, there are some held-to-maturity investment. And as of Mar 07, $17.8 millions were invested in Structured Deposit. Also there are $8.75 millions invested in equities. How much money did they lost from the $26 millions so far?

3) If we look at page 21, for the year ending Mar 06, the accumulated surplus was $8.6 millions. The govt grant was only $5.7 millions. Meaning the TC accumulated more money than what was given by govt? Then why the need to continue collect the same amount of conservancy fee? Shouldn’t the residents get a rebate or reduction in conservancy fee?

The worst thing is all the above questions was based on 2007 annual report. Now is already 31st Oct 08, so where is the annual report ending 31st Mar 08? So much for efficiency…

Given the secrecy of our Govt and Govt-related agencies, dun think we have much chance to find out. So much for transparency…

The general mentality of apathy amongst voters is being awakened now. After the ‘trust’ in RM’s of a big local bank like DBS selling them toxic products, people are startng to see how blindly ‘trusting’ any organisation isn’t to the best interest of the citizenry. Good. But more needs to be done. It’s a disease that has gone too deep.
What does the citzenry need to do to get them to divulge such information?(is this even necessary if the system was set up to ’serve’ the people?)

When the TC made profits from investment, where does the $ goes to? If they make a loss, who should account for it?

Is it just me or is it that CNA STI index chart color has changed to indicate ‘lower’ as white color instead of red color? I also recall ever seeing the whole chart background shown as Green-Yellow combination instead of the normal red , a few days ago.

I wonder was I seeing things or ….

Very honest.

Potong Pasir MP Chiam See Tong was more forthcoming with his Town Council’s accounts. He was quoted as saying that of the $6 million in sinking fund held by Potong Pasir Town Council, $3 million is spent on government bonds like LTA bonds, while the other half is in the fixed deposit.

The PAP Town Councils should take a leaf from Mr Chiam See Tong’s approach to accountability and provide real figures of their investment management. Only when a thorough report of the sinking funds’ performance with up-to-date real figures can the public’s concern be put to rest.

Yes, i agree with the writer Lim Chih Yang.
The PAP Town Councils must be transparency….

Haiz….we all crying here for transparency in all TC account, do u think they will hear you or they will act blur…

The Singapore government always prides itself for its incorruptibility and integrity.

In such an age, claims like this will need to be backed by transparency and accountability. NOT internal accountability, but accountability to the people.

7) Cool on October 31st, 2008 2.08 am

Before the facts are out, let’s not jump the gun…..

………..a TC may have made a $200,000 gain last year and lost $100,000 this year–on balance, the returns is still positive………

————————————————————

>>> Who is jumping the gun? I think you can comprehend english better than what you said. The questions are logical and valid. How much sank in ? Can you go and ask . then report back here?

>>>Wow, you dam bombastico man. You bombastic until cannot.
You mean if lose 1 million today, hold on this year and if not next year and so on so forth? surely many years later value may go up ? wow, so bombastic. so, how long you expect to ‘hold’?

So, won’t become worthless right , mr cool? Is it YOU GUARANTEEing ? TC investment, you by the name of ‘cool’, cooly can you guarantee what you saying?

Since so confident, why not show the constituents which TC and how much have sank in? What is the HUM ? any big HUM ? Tell the constituents the HUM in your mind. Hum = harm for short. If you know so much or so well or we should believe you, why not you tell me, why you never Question? Oh , everyone must keep silent is it? So, other than asking people to stay ‘cool’ , have you QUESTIONED to seek the truth? Can you handle the Truth?

Cool man, tell me can this info be revealed. If not why. Let me guess. anticipation of movies? who competes with TC? some serious interest at stake? As you can see, i have no idea. So dumb wan. U know better?

You talk like you know so well what is going on. Who are you? I mean your identity?

7) Cool on October 31st, 2008 2.08 am

Mr Cool man, your the 2nd para onwards can listen.

Hey dude, I need money to invest, would you like to give me money to invest?
I promise good returns. Condition : you get back money and interest after unknown time frame depending on stock market conditions. I promise average return positive. If this year perform not good, I hold till next year and so on so forth. one day, you get good average. Since many transactions can occur, you no need be given the details. I shall summarise for you every few years the OVERVIEW picture like positive or negative. Like that make your life easier. I value my source of funding . But since No One CAN GUARANTEE any investment is SAFE, you should understand this statement before giving me money to spend.

contact me at meesiam@gmail.TRUST-me.com

DBS will look into the financial, social standing of an individual before deciding at what level it will help him out.
With TCs they are in a difficult position to use financial or social plight to approach DBS, assuming they invest with them.
So the lost will be total I presume.
Can the constituents have a meeting with their MPs?
I am waiting for an invite.

There should be a cap on the amount of the sinking fund. It should not be left to growth indefinitely. Once the cap is reached, S&CC rebates should be given to residents or TCs should stop collecting S&CC until the ’surplus’ runs down.

Any gathering on Saturday ? please let us know, TOC.

A TOPIC of immense PUBLIC INTEREST.

Which OTHER similar organization involved in the same?
Which OTHER similar organization involved in OTHER kinds of investment ?

Singapore is a 1st world Democratic Society based on justice and equality.

23) Pyter on October 31st, 2008 11.23 am

Can I say one of the TC involved in the investment of Lehman Brother product is not LTK -run Hougang TC? Is it called Hougang TC?

Can I assume that LTK runs a TC?
Can I assume that LTK controls the use of TC funds?

I no no please advise, anyone. Your reply will clarify for many others especially the Pathetically aPathetic.

thank you many many.

sincerely,
I hope to retire with myCPF

Who are the fund managers for the TC, how were they selected. It is a huge potfolio with huge amount of service chrages and commissions paid out. How much was paid out for their services. This are some of the answers we will find in true transparency.

Something Mr Wang talked about long time ago.

You Give Your Money To Your Town Council So That It Can Play The Stock Market dated 2nd Dec 2007

There are TC Annual Reports links in the comments section. I guess that the sinking feeling has come back to “haunt” them.

Does any TC employee get any credt if there is gain?
Does any TC employee get any debit if there is loss?

I wan oso leh. I mean i wan oso to know leh. good good wan leh.

yibah yibah untooneh!!

Who is financial advisor for TC ?
Or is it TC invested without any words from the ‘Advisor’ ?

Any other things we no no ?

I suppose ‘these ppl’ are:
- highly educated,
- knowledgable,
- steady,
- able to understand the risks well,
- less than 62 years old,
- bla bla bla…

If the answer is yes, it means:
- they are not doing their homework,
- they misuse our funds (thinking that they are fund manager)
Or, the bank could have MIS LEAD them into buying unsuitable products that clearly doesnt match their risk profile…it means the bank should COMPENSATE TC financially!!!!

If the answer is ‘NO’,
please explain why these ppl are hired at the first place, and being assigned this important role of ‘jaga’ our money?

Whichever the way, the government is going to be in difficult position this time.

Financial advisor(s) to TCs probably googled “minibonds”….and was mis-led.
Perhaps we can expect them this Sat @ Speakers’ corner?

When make money they keep quiet and reward themselves, when lose money they make us all their scapegoats, wonder when all these illegal practises will stop. Care to let the people know how many of the poorer singaporeans your TC had already taken up to court so far for not being able to pay up their SCC charges. And stop giving the same excuses that the TCs would not be able to function without collecting all the SCC charges due when you have so much $$$millions in sinking funds just to throw them away into investing in private properties and other equities. Who initiated or authorized all these illegal practises? care to share with the public? I am sure that if such practises are being discovered in any of the private sectors, such incidents would already been reported straight to the CAD and a jail sentence would lightly be the case in singapore.

“…..Town Council manages, maintains and carry out improvement projects at the common properties…” I think this is the vision of most town councils right?

Isn’t this what Town Council(s) are setup to do? It is not so much of the reporting on how much they have invested or lost. I did not know Singapore Town Council (s) has the expertize within to make investment (let alone investment with high risk products). I can’t help but have to ask the following questions:

1) Who authorize the investments?
2) Are the Service and Conservancy charges has any link to these investments?
3) Are capital gains being re-distributed back to the constituents in the form of rebates or lower Service and Conservancy charges?

Does anyone know or care to share?

When we have something like the Freedon of Information act in place, the extent of the web will be revealed. You will realise that belonging to the big brother clan has huge benefits. When you control the township, the amount of work that needs to be carried out is huge. Imagine the whole island. Its not corruption but finding the best in the island to do the job. Its just a coincidence or god’s miracle if they are all related somehow or rather. This is the law of power and the ones who have absolute power have the discretion to selectively apply the rule of law to our constitution. Power is god and when we feed the beast we become the victim eventually.

To 34) Observer (SG-HK),

2) Are the Service and Conservancy charges has any link to these investments?

Yes, a large portion of Service and Conservancy charges collected goes to sinking fund. The part of the sinking fund is allowed to be invested according to current Town Council Act.

Any capital gains go back to sinking fund.

1) Who authorize the investments?

Town Council Annual Report may show who are the financial advisers / fund manager etc. They are likely to be appointed TC management.

Please read the following:

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/12/02/uniquely-singapore-f1-or-f9-%e2%80%9cresidents-willing-to-pay-more-for-service-and-conservancy%e2%80%9d/#more-517

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2007/12/1-billion-in-town-council-funds-whatre-they-used-for/

http://www.straitstimes.com/Free/Story/STIStory_182585.html

34) Observer (SG-HK) on October 31st, 2008 2.38 pm

Give them a chance to breath and take stock lah.

All along, they should only provide the necessary town council services at the lowest possible costs to be recouped by just the right amount of conservancy charges.

No excessive charges should be collected for them to play ‘casino’ with (in my opinion, the investment world is one big casino).

Let the savings from whatever low conservancy charges stay with consumers for them to take care of their own needs. This way, risk from whatever mistake, if any, made by individual consumers in their own respective needs will be more isolated and small relatively.

This should apply for the pricing of all other public services provided by our linked-here-linked-there kind of corporations of mostly monoplistic or oligopolistic nature. So that any potential ‘casino’ losses will not get socialized or democratised.

First of all, we need to understand what are the rational to invest using TC sinking fund. Where does the profit goes to if there is any?

Who authorized such a bold decision to use the TC sinking fund. I have been a treasurer before in a committee and taking care of the committee fund is a stress task. Every cents spent is hold accountable to me. I need to keep a very clear and precise book on all the fund in and out of the committee. So who in the TC is handling this sinking fund investment?

As a sinking fund contributor, I have the right to know which TC, who authorized this investment, where will the profit go to, who is accountable for the losses?

In fact, I am really upset to know TC is using sinking fund to invest. Sometimes invest equates gambling…..

Also, if such investment portfolio is handled by the TC staff, then aren’t the TC staffs suppose to “jarga” the estate rather than playing with others $$$?

I have noticed in my HDB estate some very badly setup structure, it is not the quality of the structure but rather the purposes. It looks like some of these railings, footpath are constructed to “create” job. If so, who are these contractors engaged by the TC? Why is there no one to supervise the need to construct these unnecessary structure in the HDB estate that is a waste to the sinking fund?

I hope TOC can look up http://www.stomp.com.sg and look at some of the “clueless” structure setup in HDB estate and feature is a new article questioning the TC on such waste of the sinking fund.

Er…can i request to have my TC banned from IR Casino?

MiniStar Lim in the Parliament debate on the Lehman Brothers minibonds made a remark: “Don’t politicize the issue …”

Looks like the TC are taking a leaf from MiniStar Lim’s book – saying some assuring words and not showing any loss facts and figures. Surely the simple-minded peasants will make a fuss if the TC loss figures are published. Let’s move on, do not politiicize it :)

We can safely assume that the total amount invested by all PAP run TCs will amount to more than a billion dollar. Therefore, even if it’s just a loss of a couple of percent, we are still staring at multiple tens of millions.

Fact is, most investments are bleeding profusely with severe loss of value and which will take donkey years to recover to its previous level. Anything below 10 qualifies as a few percent. Therefore, the loss ranges from 10 – 90 million or more, depending on how TCs account for it.

Anyway, they can preach 5, 10-20 years investment, reflecting LKY’s excuses. Ironically, the sinking fund is sinking indeed.

Congratulations, TOC for highlighting another part of our lives that is affected by the ever-elongating tentacles of the credit crisis.

I think, before we get hot-headed again, I will like to make 5 points:

(1) Since the Town Council Act stipulates that up to 35% of the sinking fund can be invested in financial instruments other than Govt bonds, so as long as these investments are kept under the 35% cap, no law is broken. It will not suddenly become illegal or reckless overnight just because of losses suffered due to this unpredicted and unprecedented crisis.

(2) The real question is: Why, at the time when the Town Council Act was debated in Parliament, the Act was passed with the provisions it has without any reservations about potential losses from scenarios that eventually materialised today? So, the body that should be accountable to the public now should be the Govt itself, not the individual Town Councils.

(3) We should be able to understand that the logic behind the provision for investing sinking funds is to maximize returns for the money collected. It is unfortunate that this underlying good intention has been sabotaged by unforseen circumstances.

(4) Perhaps, the real lesson today is that investing can be a dangerous and capricious business. And that all parties – whether private individuals, trustees of public funds or managers of sovereign funds – must realise that it may be wiser to be more conservative in our investment policies.

(5) Although it is inevitable the knives are out in numbers at the moment, we must realise that the way forward now is to learn the above lesson well and weather this financial storm together as a united people. Recriminations and finger-pointing will not help the situation much.

Let me ask some very basic questions:

1. how is the size of a TC determined;

2. if there is a formula to determine this then how did the TCs managed to stash up such a huge amount of funds;

3. obviously, if there is an abundance of funds over requirements, the benefit should flow directly back to residents in the form of a reduction in conservancy charges. There is no two ways about it SFs are meant for specific purposes, and the targets are determined accordingly. The TCs should not be given the freedom to increase conservancy charges at will, without proper determination of needs, without regard to the financial strain imposed on residents of unjustified/needless increases.

4. As there is NO transparency required of TCs accounts, how can residents be assured that what they said are low exposure to the Lehman’s products is true or not? Do the TCs think that they can act like LKY vis a vis the ational reserve?

“Since the Town Council Act stipulates that up to 35% of the sinking fund can be invested in financial instruments other than Govt bonds, so as long as these investments are kept under the 35% cap, no law is broken.”

Luckily, it is kept under the 35%. By your rationale also, no law is broken if it so happened that the Town Council Act stipulates that it up to 100% instead of 35% can be invested in financial instruments other than Govt bonds. Indeed, we are lucky they had such a good foresight and indeed they are lucky to have such a good salesman like you.

“So, the body that should be accountable to the public now should be the Govt itself, not the individual Town Councils.”

Faceless body and group. Real money lost, so who (which person(s)) should be responsible ?

Even when they want to fine you for offence, they go after real people with real identity and they get real $$$ in the form of fine from real people.

“We should be able to understand that the logic behind the provision for investing sinking funds is to maximize returns for the money collected.”

The logic for any gambler is to win money and maximize returns for either himself or his family. Anyone even with a slight brain damage will understand.

“Perhaps, the real lesson today is that investing can be a dangerous and capricious business. And that all parties – whether private individuals, trustees of public funds or managers of sovereign funds – must realise that it may be wiser to be more conservative in our investment policies.”

It is always less painful to learn when someone is paying for it. Don’t you agree.

“Recriminations and finger-pointing will not help the situation much.”

Do you think you & your big brother would want to extend this degree of generosity to those people who may commit PETTY offences like parking without parking ticket, sleeping in a public bench, throwing and spitting along the road, etc.

Do you think losing money in investment with public funds petty matter.

It was reported a few months ago that the total sinking fund for the 14 PAP town councils is more than S$1 billion. Hence a loss of 1% = $10million, 2% = $20million, etc. It is not a small amount of public funds by any measure.

We should observe the following:
1) Even the town councils thought the structured products were ‘low risk’ for investment. If this were not true, then the town council would be in the unacceptable position of subjecting public funds to ‘high risk’ investment. Remember the town council is NOT Temasek.

2) Now that the investment is essentially worthless, the town councils must now reclaim the loss from the vendor as best they can, if there is misrepresentation involved. The public funds CANNOT be just written off.

dun put the money on upgrading opposition wards… instead, take it to earn dividends but end up in losing… u watch it… i wun support u in 4 years time…

Members of the Town Council should
be elected by the constituents. Then
they can be held accountable to the
people.

Many respect our late JBJ for his concern about social-political issues.
I wonder what would his views be about the whole issue.

but , sigh….its too late singaporeans. No chance to hear from him.

Quote from Lim Chih Yang’s article :
………
For the uninitiated, it is perfectly legitimate that all Town Council manage sinking fund. This is common for condominium managements, for example, where they manage sinking funds to repair damages to the estate’s common areas or maintaining the elevators. ………

unquote.

Questions:
1. whose authorization is needed, if at all, for the condo management to invest using the sinking fund contributed by its condo dwellers?

2. Are dwellers given clear detail reports of investment activities?

3. Who earns the profit gained from the investments?

4. Who is responsible and accountable for losses?

5. Can the condo management and its fund manager GUARANTEE things like ‘worthlessness’ will NEVER happen? Have the STAKEHOLDERS agreed to such RISKS?

yours,
fun to play

wow , even TC kenna risk which is realised.
But I am sure Tmsek wont kenna wan.

but then who can guarantee?
you ? :-0

Anyways, I am sure the MAJORITY don’t even want to know as it does not affect them?

So many questions. Where are the answers?

Not too long ago, a senior figure in the govt advised the grassroots to check the accounts of the opposition ward thoroughly. What happened showed that it is the accounts of their own wards that need to be thoroughly checked.

The TCs of the PAP wards ought to be transparent and apologise for their mistake.

What happened showed that it is the accounts of their own wards that need to be thoroughly checked – Keith (#52)

Would this suggest that PAP talents are not as talented they imply they themselves are?

Accoring to the law, TCs are allowed to invest up to 35% of sinking fund, so they are legally ok to do so. But the fundamental question is why do they have such huge sums of sinking fund in the first place ?

Based upon the AMK TC annual report 2006-07, this TC has a sinking fund of $185M of which $45M is managed by a fund manager, $40M in bonds and $85M in fixed deposits.

A quick look at their income statement will tell us why they can accumulate such large sinking fund.

According to the law, the TC must put away 30% or 35% of the S&C fees collected depending on the type of flats. How did the govt arrive at this figure ? Private condos also have to put away sinking funds but I think it is 10-15% typically. Is the govt too conservative in locking away too much of residents money in the sinking fund ?

Using AMK TC as example :

S&C Fees collected $46.3M, transferred to sinking fund $15.5M (33.5% of S&C).

Govt Grant $12.9M, transferred to sinking fund $3.1M (24% of grant) and Town improvement fund $3.2M (25% of grant).

Despite putting away a total of $21.8M, the TC still managed to have an operating surplus of $5.3M. The accumulated surpluses (80% or 100%) will be transferred to the sinking fund after every election.

From the sinking fund, only $9.5M was spent for cyclical works in 06/07 and a bigger amount of $18.9M for 05/06 (coincidentally work year preceding general elections in May 06). And the sinking fund keep growing every year.

i used to have high respect & admiration of our 1st generation pap leaders. very sad to say they have degenerated badly since then

we have been mis-led time after time….ie clob saga, asia financial crisis, tech-bubble burst & modest recession, 911, sars, fat ministerial paid hike, nkf saga, recent px hkes in all avenues in the wake of severe recession…..what have our govt really done for us?

all we get were various non-transparency policies, alienated govt practices, vague excuses, pseduo-meritocracy etc

i want more accountability & transparency please……..no more shit & vague excuses……btw, why do govt need so much $$$$ from us to run the town council?

If these seeking funds is the source of money for HDB upgrades, then the voters have been cheated because it would be their own money that was used to pay for upgrades. After all, the SC&C funds are meant for maintaining and upkeeping the HDB premises anyway. If the funding of HDB upgrades comes from taxes or the national treasury, then people would be less cheated. Pork barrel politics is just plain wrong.

constituents means who or means what?

i think with all the grcs and with the walkovers and with so many people do not have a chance to vote, i guess town councils need not report anything.

i mean town councils feel that they need not let the people know about what they are doing.

but i think people surely wish to know and wish to have more transparency as what are going on inside the town councils.

Even when its related to Conservancy Charges , would the Majority have anything to comment about the issue?

To those who have no idea what it is, Conservancy Charges is like what your mama or papa pays each month to the TC.

I guess we should all completely seal our mouths with masking tape and remain silent forever and ever ?

Has the Majority Spoken ?

Truely unique, 1st world, highly educated.
Why need so many FT?
hmmmm…..

58) one day on October 31st, 2008 11.51 pm
i mean town councils feel that they need not let the people know about what they are doing.

but i think people surely wish to know and wish to have more transparency as what are going on inside the town councils.

————————————————————

questions :
1. Is it illegal to ask those questions?
2. Is it illogical to ask those questions?
3. Is it wrong to ask those questions?
4. Has anyone in authority asked these questions on behalf of the people?
5. What has WP said about this matter?
6. What has SKH said about this matter?
7. What has CST said about this matter?

Helloooo !???!!?? …. any body home ?

so are people sitting inside town councils just report to work everyday, take salary every month and wait for pay rise, bounses and promotion.

we want our money to be clearly identified and see where are they now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

town councils return all our money!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

what is the total $$$ lost combining all the 14 PAP TC altogether? just imagine how many unfortunate people were being brought to court by these TCs for not being able to pay their SCC charges so far? and imagine how many more people will they sue again during this bad recession period? while they lose $$$millions on the taxpayers money and still go scot-free. what sort of country are we living in now? the rich gets richer at the expense of the poor while the poor ones still have to to be penalized when they cannot afford to pay to the rich! this is totally unacceptable by all citizens of any country in today’s modern world.

i think in other countries people will already organise a strike not to pay the SCC charges together for maybe 6 months to punish the town councils.

Representing the ONE VOICE of all suffering singaporeans, I sincerely hope that TOC will continue to press for this serious issue further for accountability as all these monies are from the people of singapore, not dropped from the sky!

Maybe every HDB household should stop paying their conservancy charges for one month every year and claim that they lost it on bad investments.

Then we can tell all the PAP TC not to worry also.

Help!!!!!!!!!The sinking fund is sinking….got minibombed…….BUT
“The public do not have to worry……. there will NOT BE ENOUGH funds in order to take care of their needs.” – Halimah Yacob, Jurong Town Council.

Minibonds is not the only loss-making investment made by TCs.
One Town Council has invested so much money in Creative Technology that the Town Council is listed as one of the top 20 shareholders of the company. See the 2007 Supplementary Annual Report of Creative Technology in page 15. Go to
http://www.sgx.com and under “listed companies” click on Creative Technology and look for its Annual Report 2007.
Now that Creative shares have tumbled so much, who will bear the losses?

Hi there,

Would any know how we can obtain the following accurate information ?- please dont point me to the MSM

1) Over a ten year period with a yearly breakdown, how much money was invested ?

2) How much of Singaporeans money went up in smoke (Failed investments that were never reported ?

3) How much money was made if the investment went well ?

4) What happened to the returns of these investment, if the investment went well?

In regards to the Lehman brothers investment that went bad, is the HEAD of the town council recovering the money from the banks that sold them the structured products?

If they are , please let us know how the are doing it ? And what is the current status ? This will help other Singaporeans adopt a 2 prong approach as the other contributer for resolution is Mr. Tan Kian Lin

Or is the HEAD of the town council going to say that he/she CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD the RISK and he was OK if SINGAPOREANS money went down the drain ?

Am dead curious, why is there a need to raise our charges when we have so much money in the stinking fund ?????? Please help me answer this million dollar question?

The above scenario is rather scary, but let’s look at it from a nations monetary reserve. I think its freakier, because Singapores founding fathers and mothers that built these country have a lot to lose if there is no transparency.

I hope the reason/excuse from our Million dollar paid ministers won’t sound something like this. “We cannot disclose the actual amount, as there are many other people OUTSIDE of Singapore who will know how much we have” or something to that effect!

Last but not least, it seems the only FOOL proof – proven investment in Singapore is making the people pay more. Increasing the cost of everything that the people are dependent on (Food and Services), this is a sure win formula!

Once again – excellect article TOC – keep up the good work.
Just a thought – maybe the MSM should pay royalties to feature TOC’s articles in the MSM, and outsource your writing of articles to them.

the recent strings of px hike are a direct results of govt business / ventures failure.

we have been paying like a bloody fool for their stupid mistakes.

this is what i call ‘capitalist (govt) loss at socilist (poeple) expense’

to me, they are no different from the typical, greedy wall street ceo (sharks)

if we advocate democracy in our national pledge, can we not go back to the single ward voting system? why 30% of the nation voted against pap but we still only manage to send 2 weak opposition members into the parliament.?

something is very wrong here. we dot not have clear accountabilility, let alone democracy….!

YA I am shocked to read that town councils invested our money into such risky instruments to boast return. It is unimaginable. It shows how govt entities waylaid the public as there is not much accoutability and transparency here.
The failure to provide check s and balances in our govt organisations may be the key reason why such a thing can happen.
Town councils should use the money to maintain the estate and not try to do investment to boast up it’s coffers. The funds collected is such to the tens of millions and it is unswise to take a risk here as there is no lack of funds. Any surplus should be passed back to the public by lowering charges instead of betting them on such risky instruments.
The twon councils should own up now and be stransparent on how it uses it’s funds as it is public money. It is not the same as GIC and Temesak Holdings whose main duties is to invest public funds for generous returns.
This is all very worrying.

let’s go back to the basics as many have pointed out. Town councils have no business in investments. Their mission is the upkeep of the towns they oversee.

What’s happening today is that town councils have amassed so much that it’s becoming a challenge what to do with these monies. I won’t be surprised if town councils are appraised with financial KPIs instead of those relating to the core mission of town councils elsewhere. No prizes for guessing where the profits from investment gains go.

I’m inclined to think that town councils are nothing more than political instruments designed for the ruling party’s advantage. The whole law surrounding town councils should be revamped, lest they grow to resemble Temasek with each passing day.

Conservancy charges should be derived from income needed to cover budgeted expenditure, and these should vary yearly from town to town, depending on operating expenses, capital expenditure and relevant projects budgeted each year. This would ensure that town councils think hard about how the monies can be put into their mission, instead of taking the easy way out by collecting them in excess and then passing them on to fund managers. This would also ensure no collection beyond what’s necessary and that only performing town councils are entitled to collect more to justify direct benefits to the residents

What happened to poor hdb dwellers when they could not pay conservancy charges ?

I got the SHOCK! of my life when the news reported there is so much money in the TC that they use ‘Maybe a couple of percentage” to let someone invest .

What is the LEGAL PURPOSE of Conservancy Charges?

Selamat wong KS (khia soo) – selfproclaimed raw hum addict ;)

Anybody home? I wonder why so many VOLUNTARILY gave up their Citizenship each and every year for the last unknown number of years. Cumulatively, that all adds up.

The deciding factor for some now is will Alternative Party wake up and win 1?

Time to apply. It takes about 6 mths to 2 years to get one overseas. Now, Aust citizen protectionism has kicked in to protect their citizen rice bowl. That is great, when one becomes their citizen.

If this is what Singaporeans want, so let it be.

what can we people do if the TCs are found to have done wrong to the people money? can the people sue them?

Can someone lead protest in Hong Lim Park over TC’s running as corporate ? Is it not correct to say that TC should take care of estate and use the monies to reduce charge not going into “money-laudering” mode ? What they do is no different from money-laudeiring in which one has too much money and doesn’t want to report back, and still want to keep it, they go on money-laudering mode spending as much as they can to prevent suspicion and money from been returning back to stakeholder. Is TC doing it legally ? Do we have a say on kangaroo law to prevent investment of TC ? I remember these TC investment has no challenge in the parliament and no one voice it out blatantly.
Damn the practice.

“Luckily, it is kept under the 35%. By your rationale also, no law is broken if it so happened that the Town Council Act stipulates that it up to 100% instead of 35% can be”

Strange that people like lim and smallvoice can even talk about law when they don’t even question the law. Are they the first generation that support the ruling party ?

suing them is a waste of time and resources. Besides, you will find that the things they do are legal and aboveboard. It’s the law governing town councils that need to be changed. MPs must be prepared to raise this and challenge the current status quo of the town councils. Town councils lose sight of their core mission when they start functioning like Temasek or GIC. When too much resources are vested with them, when financial KPIs matter more than town council objectives, it’s time for a change at the legislative level

Firstly – I like to bring up is why there are surplus (extra money) collected from us monthly. this is like sinking Fund in the case of Private Condo, which is transparent, owners know how much they pay for the sinking fund. in this case , we do not know at all.
Secondly – these amount is resured for future upgrading, in HDB apartments, I thought is born by HDB/Town council / and or shared by residents.
Thirdly – this fund usually are put into time deposite with a local bank, but not in vest into products with risk, like Lehman B, or stock/shars. This is no difference to bring it to the Casino to gamble, Right !!!!

Readers, please give me some idea. Thank You

The below article is reposted from TKL blog here for the purpose of showing what TRUE regulator must do to protect the interest of unwary consumers.it is incumbent upon MAS to demonstrate stringent regulation to deter any would be flouting FIs and intermediaries like RMs and insurance agents that a heavy penalty awaits them if they should breach the laws that are meant to ensure fair dealing and fair play and to protect the unwary , old folks and uneducated and educated but clueless consumers. I am sure we have not heard of any thing like the below before. Is it that our FIs and the intermediaries are well behaved?
Absolutely not true!!!! Ask the people in the same business you will hear of lurid tales of mis-selling, cheating, unscrupulous dealings especailly of insurance agents who are aiming the mdrt or tot awards. If this is true how come no enforcement of the laws? Even in this current fiasco MAS is not specific about which law is broken. We have not heard MAS saying that the RMs have broken the section 27 of the FAA . Is MAS sleeping? Is MAS protecting the FIs? Is MAS unwilling to be seen over regulating? or too much works? or 7 years of cumulative problem to be dealt with now.( the CEDLI guidelines were implemented in 2001 along with many notices and edicts to the insurance companies and FIs) Today we are no different from 2001..
Our FAA copied some of regulations from FSA.

Financial Services Authority fines Lloyds Bank in 2002
From Business Times

Lloyds TSB was fined GBP 1 million (S$2.35 million) in 2002 by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) of the UK and had to set aside GBP 165 million to compensate claims relating to mis-sold endowment policies, involving 45,000 policyholders.

In 2003, Lloyds TSB was further fined GBP 1.9 million and had to compensate GBP 98 million to 22,500 investors, many of them pensioners. This was related to the mis-selling of high-income ‘precipice’ bonds touted as an ‘Extra Income and Growth Plan’. These bonds promised a return of 9.75-10.25 per cent over three years (twice the bank deposit rates then) and were linked to 30 stocks. They were called ‘precipice’ bonds because the investors’ capital returns could ‘fall off a cliff’ if the markets fell below a pre-set trigger point.

The markets linked to the 30 stocks did indeed fall. These high-risk bonds, which were highly leveraged, were sold to inexperienced investors. Some 16,500 investors had never purchased equity-related investment products before.

22,500 sales out of 51,000 (that is, 44 per cent) of the total sold were deemed to have been mis-sold. Howard Davies, outgoing chairman of FSA, said that the products sold by Lloyds were ‘inherently wicked’ (because they were highly leveraged) and they were sold to unsuitable people.

Andrew Proctor, FSA director of enforcement, said: ‘There was nothing wrong with the products themselves but they were sold to the wrong people.

“Strange that people like lim and smallvoice can even talk about law when they don’t even question the law. Are they the first generation that support the ruling party ?”-Daniel

“How fortunate for leaders that men do not think.”-Adolf Hitler

There are people who are just blindly following the existing laws without even thinking and questioning.

I am shock to know that PAP Town Council sinking funds are used in investments – just because a few people at the top gahmen deem fit? I hope LTK or Sylvia will raise questions on this topic during the next parliament for greater accountability. Is this right in the first place? THESE ARE PEOPLE MONEY! OUR MONEY!

Is there anything else that we don’t know?

of 10 000 affected,
merely 10% petitioned after 1 month or thereabout.

hasta las vista , babe!

and…..btw 80) LTK or Sylvia pls voice in parliament on November 1st, 2008 8.47 pm

I have given up on them.

81) Guys, I’m leaving… on November 1st, 2008 10.03 pm
of 10 000 affected, merely 10% petitioned after 1 month or thereabout.

I believe these 10% did come foward becos they are computer savy and knows how to seek help thru the internet. However, if TOC and TKL are allowed to advertise their willingness to help and assist the rest of the 90% through the mainstream newspaper especially the chinese papers, I believe alot more of these folks would come forward, but the question lies whether their advertisement would be published is another issue here. I believe by now everyone knows the problem of our mainstream papers in singapore is all about.

82) tiredsingaporean on November 1st, 2008 10.30 pm

Sadly and regretably, I believe the rest of the 90% are those whom I pitty the most .

Many of these 90%, I would think, are the ’smartest’ type in that they know better than everyone else, any attempt will be futile based on their life experience.

Unbeknownst to these lot, there is a significant difference between having tried and being too ’smart’ based on their life experience and not even done anything about it.

For example : 10 000 signed the petition , fought and fought and fought on. down the road, people gave up one by one, cannot sustain the ‘battle’. People become aware of the on-goings and their attempts and ‘battles’ and sufferings.

Versus : no one signed, case closed on day 1. All peace and quite, waiting for xmas and enjoy like IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Tell me , comparing the 2 pictures above, what is the difference? Even kids watching sessame street can spot the diff.

As said, having visited the sites and witnessed the victims and listened to them, I have learnt the sad truth and reality – People are really over Trusting not sure why? Culture? Nurture? Environment? you tell me. And People are really scared, about more than just money, if you know what I mean.

Compare HK and Singapore – the uniqueness of Singapore is proven beyond any doubt. The world understands now.

Farewell in advance, has ta las vista babe and more good decades one and all, retire as you planned and dont get cheated ever again and live happily ever after.
All hope is gone until 50 years later , but then, these are just my views. You think however you desire.

oh, forgot to mention about 1 more observation : many investors are really not english educated and worse, not Internet savvy. They never use the internet to know of TKL blog or TOC. Many not even aware of TC investment .

how net savvy and IT literate are people ?

Thank goodness they are not right? Else….look at Malaysia…. ;)

I have written an article on the ST forum page about this Town council investment fiasco – hope they published it.

I fully agreed that Town COuncils should not use public funds for such risky investment. The catch is how can the loss be compensated? From the Ministry of Finance or otherwise? Dr Teo, co-ordinating Chairman of the 14 PAP Town Councils hopefully can elaborate more on the extend of the investment loss. I am sure it is in the tune of millions of dollars. He should also reveal how the surplus funds is used so that there is transparency here. Many people were sued by the courts when tehy can’t pay up the maintenance fees. I was summoned with a warning letter after three months of non-payment and the legal fees payable was close to a hundred dollars – about 1/3 of the total 3-month consolidate bill. It was excessive and prohibitive.

I am not surprised also if our CPF funds are used for investment by the govt and there may even be some losses due to the current adverse investment climate. Transparency ought to be the key here as the money firstly belong to the public and secondly the government is selected by the people who entrusted them this mandate. This trust seems to waver over the past few years. unfortunately.

The whole government machinery runs on a very secretive top-down approach that if we dig further, more cob webs may appear. The skeletons hidden inside may be scary and frightening as the late Me Ong Teng Cheong have tasted abit of. He had difficulty as President then to unlock the keys to certain state financial secrets. I think all of us knew how he fared later on after that episode.

There is certainly a need for a far more comprehensive check system on our governance here. Parliament to me is just a lot of smoke but if the top men running the show don’t compliant, we are still back to square one. This is the piteous state of our country’s politics. And politics does affect the daily lives of people like you and me. For too long, we have trusted the people at the top to run the show but lately we realised that they may be not so trustworthy and reliable after all. More shocks may come in this unstable hard times of our life. Be prepared. There is no perfect government but at least they should be transparent and upfront with the people. We don’t need a government that is of first class model but one that listens and acts according to the heart beat of the people.

86) Gilbert Goh Keow Wah on November 2nd, 2008 4.42 am
The whole government machinery runs on a very secretive top-down approach that if we dig further, more cob webs may appear. The skeletons hidden inside may be scary and frightening as the late Me Ong Teng Cheong have tasted abit of. He had difficulty as President then to unlock the keys to certain state financial secrets. I think all of us knew how he fared later on after that episode.

The digging is on and will continue, lets see how many more shocking things will surface other than those already discovered. I agree that many singaporeans will be too shock to know the truth of many things which are still hidden from the people as the late President Ong Teng Cheong had tasted and found difficulty even as President then to unlock the keys to certain state financial secrets. I think all of us knew how he was done off by who we all know later on after that incident. Just imagine how ugly and dirty things can be happening in a small little nation like singapore.

Dear Mr Gilbert Goh,

thank you for the inititative. I had almost given up on ST Forum. They seems to publish the most mundane issue while the area of pertinence is neglected. lets hope they publish ur letter.

on another note, someone wrote to TODAY on the 31 oct about this.

Lets hope we get some accountability.

I just spoke to a friend on this issue. she told me the town council guy interviewed on TV sounded sheepish and evasive when asked how much money is lost in investment.

regards
Chih-Yang

88) Lim Chih-Yang on November 2nd, 2008 10.44 pm

what do you guys really expect to change?
“Lets hope we get some accountability.” >>> ya, I think that is exactly what we shall do. :p

Time will confirm my believe is right or wrong.

on another note, someone wrote to TODAY on the 31 oct about this. – Lim Chih-Yang (#88)

My friend wrote a letter to ST complaining against her employer. ST published the letter without revealing her identity. Few days later, Today published the same letter with her identity on it it. My friend never wrote to Today. What is going on with Singapore Press Holdings?

LHL himself said there is a need for credible opposition to keep PAP on its toes. Open and transparent accounting practises can also contribute to keep PAP on its toes. If PAP is serious about to stay on its toes, it has to be open to transparent reporting too. Perhaps we could begin with clearer TC reports.

90) Daniel Tan on November 3rd, 2008 8.22 am

I believe and treasure Personal Privacy.
We should uphold our privacy rights.
If possible, I hope your friend can give us more details and let the people know if there is really something appropriateness somewhere.
Its for everyone’s benefit.

There is the proposition, the alternative and the Third party.
lets party!

back to serious issue, I believe this TC investment questions shall remain questions as people may forget soon. Ginko deficit of the extreme kind. See, even this article is now relegated to lower ranks in the articles menu and newbies will never see it to keep the conversations going and comments coming in.

regards
Mellanie Hewit Kang

Why so silence PAP Town Council on this issue:
Town Councils investments – be accountable to constituents

Dr Teo Ho Pin, Coordinating Chairman of the 14 PAP Town Councils and Mayor of North West District said:

“Maybe a couple of percentage out of the total investment portfolio (were used in those investments), so the exposure will not affect the overall investment portfolio or the sinking funds per se. There’s definitely no fear that any of the PAP town councils’ sinking funds will be wiped out. All the supporting PAP town councils’ sinking funds are in safe hands.”

Maybe a couple of percentage out of the total investment.
We the citizen of Singapore want to know how much?
Please tell the citizen of Singapore.
Thank you.

Actually the question is not how sinking fund is invest or whether it gain or loss money, or how accountable it should be to the citizens.

The question at the first place should be “What is the job/duty of the Town Council???”

Funds should be collected to pay for only the planned projects & maintainence fees, and probably a common sink fund among all the Town Councils for ad hoc projects. It shouldnt be holding so big a “responsibility” in investing “public funds”.

The Town Councils are like mini countries to me now (minus police, civil defence and military…

If $600,000 is peanut, what can we say about few percent of tens of millions++++ dollars.

I suggest TOC should not let this TCs get away with all these wrong doing and should press on for acceptable answers to the people, mind you, this is taxpayers monies, who knows later another similar case should repeat such doing since there are no more objection from the public. This is serious!

According to the Straits Times report, the Town Council that poured in millions and millions of dollars to “invest” in Creative Technology shares is none other than the Holland-Pasir Panjang TC of which Mr Teo Ho Pin is the mayor in charge. The astronomical amount invested in Creative Technology is so obscene that this Town Council has become one of the top 20 shareholders of Creative Technology. Now that Creative’s share prices have been decimated, who should rightly bear the loss, or must the residents in this TC be asked to top up their S&C payments in order to receive the same services as other TCs.
As residents are stakeholders of this town council, do we not have the right to ask how much exactly did the TC lose in this bad investment in Creative?

Never mind, just pass it on to the people to cover the losses, after all they are used to it all these years. . . . . what can they possibly do? I am the God of ligtning and I will strike whoever defy me.

98) anonymous on November 10th, 2008 9.59 am

Long term investment ?.

Many many years ago, budgeting was 1-yr, 3-yr & 5-yr. Now, you can’t even know what will happen in 1 year.

They are still very stuck to their old school of belief. The life-cycle of everything nowsadays has greatly shortened and they really really need to re-look their past assumptions.

They may have a niche of control over here. However outside this country they have no control over international vagaries to which the value of financial papers are conditional.

Just take a look around if you happen to pass by some PAP T.C. carrying out lift upgrading work for some old HDB Flats. I was SHOCKED when first I saw some of the lift’s shaft they were constructing, instead of using solid concrete cement for the shaft, they were only made of steel ‘I’ beam and the external wall were covered by fabricated aluminium panels. When I saw this, immediately I look around the surrounding blks which were also under construction works, another ‘Shock’ they were similar too. Straight away I asked myself, What The Hell Is This? Oh Now I know why?
I’m wondering, those flats owner what are they paying for those upgrading? Are they paying for the solid concrete lift’s shaft or just a steel I beam and flexible aluminium lift’s shaft??

101) Bugs on December 20th, 2008 10.26 pm

Is there any safety issue with this construction method? Some years back Mr Chiam See Tong debated in Parliament that that he can do lift upgrading cheaper and later HDB came out with cheaper design.

BTW, please tell us the address and the blocks in question.

102) sarek_home on 20 Dec 2008 11.18pm

Well if Mr Chiam can said that, I suppose he has his method.

Well, I saw them at Bedok North, Blk ( not sure of blk no. ) but it was infront of blk 501 facing the open carpark and if you travel along Avenue 2 I’m sure you will see more.

Hi Bugs,

Could you tell us what SHOCKED you? I know you mentioned steel against concrete but what does that mean to a lay person like me? It seems like there is a huge difference in the price between both. Anything else we should be concern about?

What about safety? Has it been compromised? Thanks.

104) gemami on December 22nd, 2008 2.35 pm

I am interested to know also.

Between solid concrete cement and steel ‘I’ beam and the external wall were covered by fabricated alumimum panels, I can say the following:

1. Cost – it is going to be a great reduction in material cost and labour cost in building those shaft with steel ‘I’ beam and alumimum panels. That is one main way for HDB to reduce the lift upgrading cost, especially in the past year when there was a price hike of concrete cement.

2. Protection – there is no way the aluminium panels shaft will provide the same protection as a concrete shaft. The steel ‘I’ beams only form the framework of the lift shaft that is covered by alumimum panels. I doubt the alumimum will hold up in a fire or a strong impact.

.