Some Town Councils prefer to charge higher S&C charges so they put their savings in very safe investments.
Senior Minister of State for National Development Grace Fu in Parliament
———-
Is Mr Tan organising the rallies at Speakers’ Corner for purely altruistic reasons, or is he organising them to help his colleagues in his position as a writer of The Online Citizen, a website which is well known to have an anti-government stance?
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I believe the bottomline is ,
is it better to have a TKL or not?
is it better to have no one step forward for the mini bond fiasco where people’s life savings are wiped out just like that ?
Of leave it to the regulators whose job is to regulate FI’s ?
some say, it does not matter how much they earn ,
as long as they provide us a job and stability.
likewise.
my 0.98 cent
I am sure having mentioned about TOC, you would read the comments here as well.
YOU SAID : ”
It was not too long ago that Mr Tan was the chief executive officer of NTUC Income and his own agents adopted the same practices which he now deems unscrupulous.
Why did Mr Tan not tell his agents to practise more ethics then, when he was CEO? ”
Are you implying that NTUC Income had done unethical things during his watch?
Yes / No ?
Why would NTUC income need to practise more ethics if there is nothing unethical committed?
You need to seriously give a good reply to clarify your allegations.
and why are you trying to ask Mr TKL not to demand answers from MAS ?
‘Proper channel’ , you know what this term means or not?
and are you TKL ? how you know he would not go to M S later?
how you know he has not written or spoke to them?
Chua Seng Yang, how do you know? Who regulates the FI ?
Why you worry so much? Should the people and you not be grateful that someone volunteer to fight for others during his retirement when there is hardly another like him to voice up for the less educated, old and naive?
Or you prefer complete silence and just move on?
Your comments on TC investment losses leh ?
You should comment also right? Come on, dont be shy , handsome.
to clarify, I am not from TOC. I am a viewer. I criticise TOC also like the interface. But seems like some improvements has been made.
Chua, your final answer please.
Personality assasination is a well known tactic adopted by you all know who.
i cant believe such crap got published in the ST forum ! Below the belt.. and the rightful place is the black bin!
Chua Sheng Yang i know you will be here looking at the post.
let me tell you, ask your own heart and you will know the answer.
but most important you should ask what have you done, yourself?
do not care about others.
i think you should write another article to tell people what you intend to do to help if you are tan kin lian. what are your suggestion?
I think TKL is beginning to get under the skin of the govt with his continued sessions at HLP. The MSMs are probably given instructions to start the character assissination to discredit TKL and also to provoke him to say something that may be construed as defamatory. Every word he says will be put though a fine comb by lawyers. If TKL is not careful, don’t be surprised that a lawsuit will come his way.
Dear TOC,
I think that the TOC people had better watch out…..this letter has dark connotations with it. Is TOC next on the hit list ?
I think the quote tells us a lot about the fears of the PAP govt.
In one sentence, it attempted to assasinate both TKL and TOC while at the same time essentially reviling pro-PAP commentators for their failure in keeping TOC in check.
This means that the PAP is taking notice of TOC and online sentiments although they pretend to target TKL. As usual, they think that destroying the reputation of TKL will destroy the reputation of TOC along with it. See the link?
This is the oldest trick in their book which has been used time and time again. The ST has taken the cue and we can expect more to come in the coming days.
It might also be construed as a clear message for all pro-PAP commentators to pack up and leave TOC for good.
The label has been attached; TOC is anti-government; and is speaking a foreign language that locals must not attempt to understand.
The PAP’s Character Assasination Machinery has just been rolled out.
TOC is now place on top of the pedestal and our voices have produce results. This is not the time for the faint-hearted. Are we ready for a fight?
Pro Singapore = Anti goverment ?
Pro Singaporean People = Anti government?
Disagreeing in the approach = anti government?
Simple minds = false views
To Mr Tan Kian Lin, you are doing a good job, please keep up the good work.
You lead by example and I hope this will awaken the masses
When they could not “silence” Mr Tan from behind the scenes, they extended their efforts online. They could not fault his methods of expression on the whole minibonds debacle. I believe that Mr Tan is just sharing his financial expertise with the affected investors within the allowable legal limits. It is all within the laws. If Mr Tan’s actions are illegal, why didn’t the government do something as they have done so to people who are “anti-government”?
It seems that our “good and clean government” is on the onslaught to “kill two birds with one stone”. When Mr Chua used the term “anti-government”, is he implying “anti-PAP” too? It would not be a surprise, the next attack on Mr Tan will be on print or even TV. They are trying to break the unity of the affected investors. By removing Mr Tan from the scene, they hope that the affected investors would concede to the FI “one-sided” resolutions and hope that the whole minibond debacle would just go away quietly.
Our government hate it when the people are united.
Ya let’s watch out – I am surprised such character-slaying letter can be published.
TKL can actually ask the writer to apologise to him as his character si being defamed. I think he can sue also as he is being portrayed as one who uses his power as CEO NTUC then to condon mis selling.
TKL, the war has started but dont worry we are on your side through thick and thin as you are one of Singapore’s true son.
Dont worry fight on as for every one that is against you one hundred is for you!
Treat and fight are too childish.
I am neither bitter nor cynical but I do wish there was less immaturity in political thinking.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
When he left the presidency, he was the people’s president.
Even the PAP top people did not leave him in peace.
What do you expect them to do to TKL?
I do not see why there is a need to even stray onto the path of questioning the motive of Mr Tan Kin Lian.
Let us see what Mr Tan Kin Lain has been doing all these weeks.
1. Present himself to the public to give out advice to misled investors when no one else bothered to do so.
2. Speak on the investors behalf to call on MAS and the PAP Govt to investigate is suspicion of mis-selling.
3. Write a letter to PM to ask that investigations be carried out.
4. Continue to avail himself to the public amid the deafening silence from the PAP govt and MAS.
5. Promise to continue to stay the course for the investors till end of the year.
Now let’s see why CSY had to say what he said. Is there a need to attack Mr Tan Kin Lian’s character? This way off the mark and way below the belt.
For whatever Mr Tan Kin Lian was before, he is now a common man like any other Singaporean. If he speaks for the common man and brings up his grievances on his behalf, why is it even wrong? Why is there a need to question where he comes from? Why is there a need to suspect where he is going? Why is there so much fear from an entrenched political party against one common man?
Is this Singapore? Is this my beloved Singapore? Is this going to be the Singapore where my children will be growing up in?
My plea to PAP is this:
“Please show yourself more respect for all the good that you have done for Singapore while you have been in power. You have earned it through your own hard work. Do not destroy the good work of your predecessors too. Loosen up.
I notice one thing that is quite disturbing.
Everyone who commands a following providing it is from a certain political party is OK. is usually considered
a. good role model
b. trustworthy
c. dependable
d. reliable
Everyone who has a following other than PAP has either
a. hidden agenda
b. attempting to create a cult
c. attempting to undermine racial and religious harmony
dont you think it is very coincidental? Seems like a very curious way to make sense of the world.
Why cant they just compete on a level playing field. I noticed another thing. If they cannot win outright on a fair fight. Then they will change the rules as they go along.
Usually this involves;
a.cancelling the PR of foreigners so that they are kicked out of the country
b. financially ruining them with crippling legal suits.
c. stopping their capacity to earn a decent living for themselves and their family.
d. Using psychological warfare, like now online.
When are this people going to realize. We live in a new age. Most of us can see all this coming ten miles away.
No wonder they need to put it under one party. They are running scared.
Dear People,
PM Lee has spoken of change within the PAP. Let us wait and see if any real change is forthcoming. I honestly doubt if any real change is coming.
The first change the PAP has to make is – quit the politics of fear and start working on the politics of hope. The PAP must learn to accept public criticism.
Tan Kin Lian did what he did – simply because the PAP failed to respond quickly and appropriately. Any further attack on Tan Kin Lian and the TOC will only discredit PM Lee’s talk of change within the PAP !
please do what is morally right.
Do not turn off more Singaporeans by starting a witch hunt on TKL.
It would be good if a PAP minister say something nice about TKL today in parliament.
Think about it, has any PAP MPs spoken positively about TKL efforts at all??
Er…Chua Seng Yang – are you the “Collin Lim” who sabo John Tan :)
TOC is anti-govt? Good grief.
For the record, I like Tharman Shanmugaratnam and Lee Bee Wah. Yes, Lee Bee Wah, because she was my MP and I know she works very hard on the ground. I like Tharman because he is a genuine guy. In my opinion, anyway. (I think he’d make a great PM!)
We had Ephraim Loy as an editor on TOC before – and he was and is a Young PAP member. Unfortunately, he couldn’t be as involved as we’d like.
TOC is critical, yes. But anti-Government? Now, that’s a big statement to make – and not a very accurate one.
TOC is made up of ordinary Singaporeans who want to speak up and found that TOC provide this avenue.
Thing is, if TOC is thought to be “anti-government”, perhaps the letter writer should ponder why there are so many who are unhappy with the govt at the moment – instead of ascribing labels.
Nonetheless, I applaud PM Lee’s light touch approach to the Internet and Speakers’ Corner. Otherwise, many Singaporeans would not have the opportunity to speak up.
Thus, I find some “pro-govt” people not really in touch with the govt whom they supposedly support.
The above are my personal opinion.
Thanks.
Regards,
Andrew Loh
“PM Lee has spoken of change within the PAP. Let us wait and see if any real change is forthcoming. I honestly doubt if any real change is coming. ”
The only thing they will keep changing is the rules of the game. And they keep wondering why no one believes in them any longer, when they tout change.
I am PR working here. I better not talk too much. So forgive me. I am going to log off. I dont want to end up like all this people
http://singabloodypore.civiblog.org/blog/_archives/2006/3/13/1817663.html
I am afraid. I just want to cari makan. But I also want to live in dignity and not have my intelligence regularly insulted.
Is that too much for any self respecting human being to ask for?
TKL has done what other minsiters and MPs should have done but didn’t – that is simply showing care and concern by addressing their fears and apprehensions.
There is no need to promise them that they will take back their money etc as that is the job of the FIs/MAS to investigate.
What TKL did is to gather this lost sheep and provide them a voice and a pat on their tired shoulder.
I hope ST forum will publish my letter written today to rebuff what CSY has written.
i suggest Mr Chua get a head examination.
What is more important here: sieving out Mr Tan’s motives, or grilling the PAP gahmen into action???
Rather than casting aspersions on a samaritan, the correct thing to do is to ask these the multi-millionaire, publicly funded ministers and mps why they are not doing their jobs and helping the citizens??
21) Andrew Loh:
That is why I have advocated all along that preferably this site should be bi-partisan so that it is not targetted as anti-establishment by many outsiders.
Those who sometimes support PAP polices should not be ‘targetted’ and shot down. I have seen some bloggers got hammered just becasue they like a particular PAP policy.
So bloggers let us show mutual respect to each other. The last thing I want here is for those pro-govt bloggers to left us and only those remanining who are anti-establishment to keep firing away. This is not ideal for such a political site as it becomes too narrow minded.
@4
Agreed. Unbearable cynic spotted.
I think Mr Chua is absolutely right on what he wrote. I can give him a few suggestions on how he can make his claim even more right.
Mr Chua,
Maybe you want to set up your own hotline to council the investors and tell them they went in with their eyes open. Tell them that they are educated people who weren’t vulnerable. And then you can tell them your IC no. and telephone number, so that that can reach you for more morale support. And you can give counsel to the Town Councils on how they are educated and the losess in the minibond does not effect your S & C tax which indirectly is your money too. Tell them it’s okie with you, that you are very pro-government. And tell the people you are not politising this issue. If you cant, zip your mouth Sheng Yang.
Please address the issue at heart based on the following
1) Do the regulators agree that if this is a toxic product ?? (Structured products)
2) If yes , how did it get into the open market
3) Current status, damage is done, people lost their life savings, what’s next?
4) What are the POSITIVE contribtions by our MP’s and Regulators, million dollar paid ministers to date ?
5) LAST but not least, LETS ADDRESS THE ISSUE ON HAND in regards to the above points stated and not attack a person who’s helping in a VERY POSITIVE MANNER.
Oh yes, We should all thank the MSM for giving TOC publicity, am sure the masses will come here for alternate views and news.
Another PAP doggy coming out to bark.
Let’s not go slamming anti-PAP sentiments posted by commentators. These people need an avenue to vent their frustrations and to let off steam. Where else can they go to do this?
One thing is for sure, whatever we may call ourselves, Pro-Govt, Anti-PAP, Pro-Opposition, these will not matter to the PAP govt as long as it has its eyes on you.
One small step out of line is all it takes. Do we want to work within such confines?
So what if majority are anti-PAP sentiments? The PAP must realise that there are more anti-PAP sentiments because pro-PAP voices are asleep, in slumberland.
All it needs to do is to wake some of them up and get them to come online here with more pro-PAP comments and we will have a balance of opposing views, won’t we?
Does it make sense for Pro-Govt or anti-PAP voices to check themselves and measure what they write? Is this the way forward we are looking at?
Hi
What does it matter? Black cat or white cat providing it catches mices.
The way I see it, its a simple case of supply and demand. Yes, lets not complicate it further. Its very simple to understand.
This matter was allowed to fester without any direction for so very long a time. There was plenty of opportunity for anyone to step into the medley to fill in the missing narrative. So if the govt didnt step in, how can you blame so many aggrieved investors should they gravitate towards Mr Tan?
It could be said, they created the perfect conditions for him to assume the position, he did. He is not a god or a messiah, he is just a man who holds out a “solution.” So how can you blame others for seeing hope in him (real or imagined). Is that even reasonable. Use your mentality.
This is common sense. If you happen to be a MP, corporate leader or even someone like Gerald Ee. If theydont step in decisive and take charge of the situation, then you cannot blame others should they decide to do the same.
This is really like the classical case of a man whose wife has run off and set up home with another man. Because the husband did not service her regularly or attend to her bedroom needs (this is a sensitive issue, but it is an apt metaphor as a strong emotional quotient features in the whole pathology.)
How can you now blame the man for stepping in to do the job which the husband should have done in the first place?
Please think. If you want to lead, then lead. Who was stopping you? The soap box was there. So was the venue and there is no shortage of by standers. So what you talking about? If you do nothing and someone comes along and leads, then you pull up every single dirty trick in the bag to plug him. Then I say, you better think very hard again. Your chances of succeeding is zero. all you would have done is martyred Mr Tan. That is really how stupid the person who started all this is.
SD (Intenet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
Dear Chua Sheng Yang:
Instead of writting why the Government kept mum for such a long time, you bloody attack the person who is giving attention to the distress.
Are you even a human being at all. Your praise is not required for Tan Kin Lian action. But when stink words come from your mouth, be very prepared to face people like us.
For those PAPPY dogs out there, the more you try to attack people like Tan Kin Lian. The more vote you will LOST to the opposition party.
Try bloody harder.
Gemami:
Yes I have advocated all along that this site if possible should appreciate all views pro or anti establishment so that it is not branded.
Now it is targetted as anti-establishment by outsiders.
Of course, on the flip side, TOC will now gain another 100,000 readers after today’s ST forum letter. Something to be positive about anyway.
Some Town Councils prefer to charge higher S&C charges so they put their savings in very safe investments.
Senior Minister of State for National Development Grace Fu in Parliament
How do you define “safe investments” in the first place? sure win? guaranteed? if not, then what is the difference between investment and gambling? and if gambling is allowed, my god! this is the publics monies duh! if win, who keep the extras, if lose? how? charge higher next round is it?
31) singaporedaddy on November 18th, 2008 11.39 am
Very good explanation on the vacuum created by some proper authorities for others to take ownership and seize the opportunity.
33) Dr Albert Winsemius on November 18th, 2008 11.49 am
You are right. While people can see for themselves the positive actions taken by Mr. Tan, they on the hand just attack people’s good intention by peppering it with doubts.
I would like to suggest the following for the sake of giving both sides a fair opportunity to clarify , put forward or defend their case .
1. Hold a ‘live’ Public debate at HLP and not in the MSM studio.
Mr chua must be able to stand by what he said. He must prove TOC is Anti-Government.
2. An instant poll will be conducted in public by the raising of hands or casting of votes to see who agrees or disagrees with Chua.
Chua, I urge you take up this challenge if you are serious in what you say.
You should clarify who are you speaking on behalf of or is it purely your personal opinion.
We have lost a strong voice for the people when the late JBJ passed away.
Now, imagine if there is no more TKL to help the weak and naive and timid speakup.
Only an Act of Gawd now…
We need one dominant party for the following
1) GST to help the poor
2) Tarrifs raised by 21 percent , don’t ask me ? I am the delivery man….
3) People are homeless by choice
4)We cannot tell you how much National Reserves we have, otherwise others will KNOW…..
5) We need foreign talent , because Singapore don’t have any … i wonder why ?
could be the recycled water we are drinking… don’t think its the system or education system for that matter
6) Increase the workforce by bringing in cheap labour, depress the wages… good deal!
7)Peg your salaries to a world class formula, but can’t have a minimum wage for Singaporeans.
8) Public housing that sucks up your CPF and leaves you in debt, when you can’t afford to pay your medical bills, please sell- downgrade and pay your OWN bills.
9)No one is left behind
10) Degree holders should marry degree holders
11) Please dont think of retirement
12) Please get married and have kids
13) Please upgrade and retrain
14) We need ERP to improve the traffic
15)Highest paid ministers
16)82 MPs that are good with lyrics and hip hop
I am sure you all will agree, this is why we need one dominant party :)
Hip Hop Hurray!
I urge that if Chua is serious in what he alleged,
Mr Tan should take legal assistance to help protect his character from being tarnished.
Is mr Chua speaking as spokesperson of some body or in his own capacity?
if in his own capacity, if mr Tan invites him to clarify at the courts,
i urge chua to welcome this opportunity to put his allegations forward to the courts.
Will chua be able to do so? is he serious in what he said?
Chua Sheng Yang, don’t hide the ball is in ur court now.
I took on a different perspective after reading the entire article published in the ST. Look on the positive side of things.
The more such characters assignation articles written and published in an other wise known “Samaritan” like Kin Lian offering his services without any personal interest attached (regardless of the out-come), the better it is for the general public like us to see the “true colors” of these people who are either zealous lot or may have personal animosity or may be coerced into an attempt to distract Kin Lian from focusing on his mission in giving a listening ear to the helpless souls where no real official assistance had be given to date.
Proven the allegations are false, the more credibility will be accorded to Kin Lian, TOC and the volunteers that had put in their selfless service offerings to help the neglected. Not that they have to defend their doings and prove you wrong “清者自清，何惧流言”. I see nothing wrong for any person who is passionate enough to wanting to help fellow citizenry. I think Chua Sheng Yang needed to reflect on this and re-educate himself on what is the true meaning of “Camaraderie” spirit. If he does not know, I believe his parents will understand and appreciate “Camaraderie” during the older days of Singapore (even some of those who were born in a golden spoon know a thing or two). 人，处事代人之道，只要对得起天地，父母，朋友，行得正，不歪曲事实又何惧什么政治压力。
In crisis time “like we are all facing now”, if Singaporeans do not help Singaporeans, who will? As a matter of fact, even if it is not a crisis time, it is a virtue value to offer your sincere help. My personal advice to you Chua Sheng Yang: Learn to respect yourself and respect others. Do not to others where you do not want others to do it unto you. 朋友：懂得尊重自己也要学会尊重别人。菲言流语，习多损人不利己。常言道：种其因得其果。其果未报不是不报只是时辰未到。包容，互助，礼让，谦卑才是人修养之道。
Like I said before – TKL did what he did only because the PAP did NOT respond quickly enough nor adequately. If you want a million dollar salary – then you better be worth it !
I am still very curious about what changes PM Lee will make within the PAP. he has yet to make any change…………I guess that I should not hold my breath.
Talk of making changes is easy. Where and what are the changes ?
Sometimes I wonder if our forefathers who fought so hard to get rid of the colonialists would turn in their graves when they see what the party they have put in place has turned out to be.
A one party dictatorship that uses the media to silence critics; instil fear in their citizens for exercising their right to speak up even on online media; flagrantly brushing off their own mistakes without having any accountability for it; creating an elitist society which is no different from what the colonialists used to practice.
HI Gilbert,
You are right that TOC will definitely see more visitors and contributors. Hopefully we can get some who dare to speak up for the PAP in a civilize manner. We can then go on to a higher level of debate.
It is the most apt time for TOC to come up with a clear code of conduct and some ob markers. I think this has to be done, no choice, to prevent unsavoury name-callings and mud-slingings etc.
We have to be able to engage as well as to take criticisms in our strides. It’s the only way we can grow to maturity.
We can all contribute to this code of conduct and I would like to start by suggesting that we should exercise extreme caution when commenting on race or religious issues.
I found this post on ST Forum in respond to Chua’s Letter:
———————————–
Dear Chua Shen Yang.
I urge you to take back your statements because your letter implies that NTUC Income insurance agents are engaged in unethical practices. This is defamation against NTUC Income. Unless you have solid proof of NTUC Income insurance agents being unethical towards clients, you are liable for defamation.
Best regards
Concerned for your safety
Good afternoon all,
Gives me no pleasure to say this, but some of you here have to be stupid. I am sorry, if my words are not honeyed, but what to do: I have to call a spade a spade, otherwise some of us will continue to be confused.
Listen to me, a wise man picks his battles, he does not fight with his own shadow. If someone lights a fire under your chair, you dont jump up and down and play into their hands. Life cannot be so simple.
Think to yourself, who were the people who approved this comment? Why was it given frontage? What were they trying to accomplish? What reactions were they trying to provoke?
Once you clarify the lines and eliminate all the impossible options; there is ONLY one possible answer – there you have it; the reason and motivation in the palm of your hands – many of you bought into it; hook, line and sinker. My point is, you dont have too. That is how they have managed some of you all these years. We are dealing with clever people, these are stupid people who only know how to use one page in the art of war.
But despite that many of you have fulfilled every aspect of their agenda. Again I am sorry, if my words are harsh, but please use your mentality.
SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
I dunno what prompted me to say this.. but-
It is true that a good government sometimes has to make unpopular decisions.
But there comes a point in time when you start wondering, are there too many unpopular decisions these few years?
And maybe that’s why you see so much ‘anti-gahmen’ sentiments around these days, Mr Chua?
I like to say that comments made by viewers should not be blamed on TOC.
TOC provides a platform for all to agree or agree to disagree.
chua, you must learn that if viewers say a plate of mee siam is pai jia (not tasty), that is their comment. And that is also the FACT. The FACT must be respected.
If a mee siam stall sells bad tasting mee siam, and customers all never come back for seconds, that is what it is. Its called life. Do you think the mee siam seller has a ground to sue his customers for giving their honest comment that his mee siam is lousy? Or should the mee siam seller complain to his daddy that he has lost face and cannot take it? its understandable if the mee siam seller buay song. but the fact remains , the customers dislike the mee siam he sells.
Even if mee siam seller asks his daddy to sue all the customers and insist they keep Paying and Paying to buy his mee siam that they confirm tastes bad? Even he has his way and makes or force his customers to do so and pay him everyday, the FACT remains, the customers dislike his mee siam.
get the point ?
no, no, we don’t get it.
PM says his mee siam mai hum but we keep giving him so much hum that his dog also get fedup.