MY GOD!!..You lose our money and we should be thankful??

These fund are not meant to be invest in the 1st place. It’s our hard-earned money. If i will to give you money every month to gamble, might as well i do it myself!

Teo, if you have nothing better to say, I would suggest you STFU…

Typical elite reasoning again….still so arrogant after losing so much money. These people have absolutely no sense of shame at all.

Sigh nothing much to say these days to them. Simply shake my head and move on.

Else we get a heart attack…

What arrogance !!!

what kind of stupid reasoning is this? firstly, the residents had been asked to pay more than what was needed. Next, instead of being humble and apologetic, we are asked to thanks them for losing the monies? They have been paid for their work.

Are all the MPs saying they have no fault at all whatsoever ?
Not even an atom of fault?

Let the People know leh. some just need a summarised and concise reply.

regards
the “A” team

Now that we know the MAGNITUTE of the bluff, can the PAP govt grab the FIs and Banks by the scruffs of their necks and get them to account for the bluff?

No need to discuss whether one is literate or illiterate, young or old, smart or stupid. Everyone got CONNED! Do something about it!

Can the PAP govt sit by and watch while the thieves make their getaways?

Its all quite similiar “IT HAPPENED, LETS MOVE ON.”

Do.

sigh….

I am disappointed beyong words can describe my feelings. :(

It’s just 12 million peanuts to them, considering that the PAP town councils supposedly have more than $5 billion in their sinking funds.

Now, you have a vote in your hand, and you know what to do.

This is what we singapore citizens get in return for supporting them all these years! Given a choice to choose between winning lottery or throw these skunks out of parliaments at this moment, I’ll forego the money.

It is better to keep silent if comment is just to justify one’s misfortune when public money was lost in this manner. But, the least that one can do is to expose the culprits and bring justice to the case. No one can deny that these deceptions and cheating never existed . All these structured financial products were sold to benefit the issuers, the distributors but not the retail investors. The attractive interest was used as a bait to entice foolish people like us and the Town Council into believing that it is a far better investments than fixed deposits.

Government cannot guarantee all our investments are 100% safe but at least make sure that the investments are not there to rip-off to 0% unsafe that our citizens suffer this kind of losses with the banks that they trust. Maybe, it is best not to invest with all the banks in the future to safeguard ourselves from this kind of exposure.

what that teo guy meant…to put it bluntly..dont ask so many questions we know what we are doing! He should be thankful that he is in Singapore…elsewhere..i bet his big mouth will have a big shoe stuffed into it..literally!

Not even a single soul from the residents knew anything about all these papees TCs using our taxpayers monies for gambling until the world financial market exploded and every dirty things start to surfaced. What can happen if there is no financial crisis? the TCs will just quietly made their piles of $$$ and again rewarding themselves with all the year end bonuses, but the citizens keep paying like bloody idiots whenever you TCs start to cry father cry mother complaining that the SC&C fees collections are still insufficent to keep the maintenance of the estates. Careful huh! lightnings will strike you people for doing all these sinful things.

Wah! Such arrogance! Indeed more ‘good’ years ahead.

this are the results when things are allowed to be done at backdoor, nobody will know, there will be no checks and balance, no transparency, no accountabilty and ultimately no responsibility but never mind, its the public monies, who cares anyway! as long as we made $$$ from time to time, we get promoted with higher salaries and bonuses every year. As for the residents who are just idiots in the eyes of our master, who cares anyway, they can complain and shout all they like, after all they still have to pay and pay and keep paying all these 40+ years.

This kind of comments just show how detached the ruling party is away from the main population.

“They (residents) should thank the Town Council for working hard to come up with a diversified portfolio to generate income so that residents do not have to fork out more money.”

Right, why are families losing their homes ?

I’m damn fed up with all this kind of people “ruling” Singapore.

not true teo ho pin.

the charges were increased.

but it ok since now you have say this, make sure you ensure there is no increase or you should resign.

The question should be why are the town councils sitting on so much surplus funds that they have to invest to keep up with inflation? Has there been over collecting of conservancy fees or under spending in amenities/infrastructure? I agree that you need a reasonable cushion but what is reasonable? Perhaps the town council books should be more open to scrutiny.

judging from the resentment on the ground, maybe TOC could start something that get aspiring independent candidates together, i mean seems like most people talk about using “their” vote, let Singaporeans walk the talk, the best thing that can happen to the country is an election where all/majority of seats are contested….by the way, does any1 know whether PRs can vote ?

“but it’s not so straightforward”

When you said that it is not so straightforward, does it mean that you also do not know what is going on?

It is the same type of answer as “it is not so simple” spoken by our esteemed minister.

21) Joe on November 19th, 2008 10.39 am “but it’s not so straightforward”
When you said that it is not so straightforward, does it mean that you also do not know what is going on?
It is the same type of answer as “it is not so simple” spoken by our esteemed minister.

Of course it is not so straightforward as many things are done in a crooked way, backdoor, illegal or not? so cannot disclose to the public, understand?

13) blackfeline

any other place to stuff the shoes besides the mouth?

Of course they can say like that. They’ve lost our money!!!

Well, with Taiwan’s Chen setting a ‘good’ example, every politician is eager to follow

“They (residents) should thank the Town Council for working hard to come up with a diversified portfolio to generate income so that residents do not have to fork out more money.”

Does this diversified portfolio include the flexibility of CHARGING HIGHER CONSERVANCY, IF NEED TO.

“The Town Councils did not foresee the financial tsunami and its impact on complex structured products.”

Now that they do not need to forsee anymore as the results are already played out, what are they going to do with these “complex structured products” and THEIR INVESTMENT FORESIGHT IN OTHER AREAS.

“It’s not just town councils, but individuals and corporations who have been hurt by this economic crisis.”

There is a difference between private losses and losses coming from the management of public funds. IF IT IS YOUR OWN PRIVATE MONEY, NO ONE CARES A HOOT.

“We have to be realistic. It’s easier to say things with hindsight, but it’s not so straightforward.”

It is always easier to say things with hindsight and it is always not so straightforward. But then, when real public funds are lost. WHO IS GOING TO BE ACCOUNTABLE. WHY CAN’T ALL OF YOU JUST MANAGE WHAT YOU ARE SUPPOSEDLY GOOD AT, MANAGING REAL TOWN COUNCIL MATTERS.

Assuming upto 35% is investable for the TCs.

IF one fine day, due to another “The Town Councils did not foresee the financial tsunami and its impact on complex structured products” that result in complete 35% losses, can I assume that TC would guarantee that this shall not be used as a reason to use to increase S&C charges?

What are the possibilities?
What mechanism in place?

But i think we should let them run the show
since the majority does not seem to have much problem with this fiasco?

If TC a non-profit organization (correct me if wrong) is a profit-oriented company in the private sector, i think how they invest is their pasah.
But even in private sector, wrong decisions can = the boot, regardless of hindsight or foresight criticism.

So, seems like there is no admitting or fault AND no denying of fault at the moment?

Seems like a tough decision to make? Wow.

this kind of action is just like

a gambler took the child’s piggy bank… “give me the money, i promise the last time” can remember?

Then he take, the child super buey song. Then he go gamble, then lose a bit of money. Then he come back and tell you “Be thankful, i never lose everything.. cuz i play poker, i play roulette, I play chor dai dee”

“chor dai dee and poker unexpected loss, the banker play cheat. My winnings came from roulette”

27) walking on thin ice on November 19th, 2008 11.36 am Assuming upto 35% is investable for the TCs.

IF one fine day, due to another “The Town Councils did not foresee the financial tsunami and its impact on complex structured products” that result in complete 35% losses, can I assume that TC would guarantee that this shall not be used as a reason to use to increase S&C charges?

Since when did the TCs EVER EXPLAIN IN DETAILS why they need to increase the SC&C fees to the residents? since when? all they do was send out a letter of notice to each household about the increament with a 1 line reason that the existing collections are insufficent to maintain the estates, stop!

pui pui !!! That’s all I can say…

Not only is there no apology, they have the audacity to come out with statements like “They (residents) thank the Town Council for working hard to come up with a diversified portfolio”.

Hey tell you what i got a simple suggestion. Why dont you collect less charges so that we control our own money? This manner, those who want to save their money can save and those who want to invest can invest. We dont need people to invest our money and after losing it, they come around telling us we should be thankful! This is simply, simply atrocious.

What’s next?

“The Town Councils did not foresee the financial tsunami and its impact on complex structured products.”

When things turned out well, they go about town gloating that we have a first division govt and MPs with the FORESIGHT. When things turned sour, they are not accountable because nobody can foresee.

It’s like “head I win, tail you loose”. Pao jiat.

TCs has no business holding so much sinking fund in the first place that they need to invest in higher risk financial instruments to get better return. The Town Council Act must be amended to cap the amount of sinking fund any TC can accumulate. We should cap it at 1.5 times the amount needed to carry out all the cyclical repairs/replacements.

1) babyckh: Teo, if you have nothing better to say, I would suggest you STFU…

Sigh…typical of Teo

http://www.asiaone.com/Motoring/News/Story/A1Story20081002-91167.html

He said: ‘There are always avenues to help those genuinely in need…However, those who miss out on the vouchers because of late applications SHOULD NOT BLAME the authorities, he said.

‘The vouchers are goodwill gestures and there was enough publicity about them… Residents need to take an interest in the news and in what they need to do to help themselves,’ he said.

They manage n lose our citizen money, yet they call themselves 1st class ruling party. Our not so 1st class opp party did’nt hv this problem. Time to make a change coming election.

Sorry to be so personal Dr Teo, but you disgust me.

Why do they always have to justify it is ok when something goes wrong? Isn’t it better to admit it was done wrongly, apologize and move on?

Though the TCs explained that they have rigorous approval process before making any investment decisions, exactly who are these people, their background and qualifications, that make such decisions?

Are these people under pressure to show good investment results or so that they can boast to the MPs? If the government had in the past insisted that (except recently) that inflation was a low of 1-2%, why are the TCs so hung up on seeking investment returns that beat the inflation as what they explained.

30) tiredsingaporean on November 19th, 2008 11.53 am

Since when did the TCs EVER EXPLAIN IN DETAILS why they need to increase the SC&C fees to the residents? since when? all they do was send out a letter of notice to each household about the increament with a 1 line reason that the existing collections are insufficent to maintain the estates, stop!
…………….

Whatever the situation, since how many decades ago have the TC been doing that? Anyone knows? Another Tough Question?

What i mean is in a democracy, the people is also responsible. Responsible for the decision they made. For commenting to their “People’s representatives” to whom they gave the mandate.

Answer this fellow singaporeans:

Is it not true that the majority have no issue with this?

Or have I pointed out something to think about?

The Root ?

regards
Mr Wally Chua

28) Private service – eg body massage good good on November 19th, 2008 11.50 am

Absolutely!

Foresight — Hindsight — Inside — Outside — Whatever side — pack your backside and go join the parasites.

“We have to be realistic. It’s easier to say things with hindsight, but it’s not so straightforward.” – Zaqy Mohamad, MP of Hong Kah GRC

But we expect the ‘ELITES’ to have good foresight!

Comment on the link found in post #34:

Why were applications for the transport vouchers were refused just 1 week after they were announced? Was the 1 week timeframe enough for the publicity to flow down to the people who do not have access to the media?

How can they assume that the 1 week timeframe was sufficient?

QUOTE de TNP :

The New Paper asked several MPs about what they thought of town councils investing surplus funds into structured products.

All of the MPs we spoke to did not think that it was appropriate to point the finger at the town councils and blame them for investing in such products. No one was aware of the risk at the point of investment.

Un QUOTE

I recall that someone once said, they cannot guarantee any investment is safe.
Based on this, I relate to the above words from the leaders.

Investment is INHERENTLY Risky. The only thing that matters is no matter whose money is it, regardless of non-profit or profit organization, cost center or profit center , good or bad, right or wrong, ying or yang, up or down, left right or center, there must be a HEAD that holds the Buck or not?

Tell me : YES / NO / No-No ? Simple ? Is there any other answer? oh, you mean, ‘its not so simple’ ? Go exams can use this kind of reply or not? I hope so. gonna be taking my ‘Ethics & Accountability’ module (aka self respect moral module) soon.

regards
Translucency International

I think what is past is past. No point crying over split milk here.

The important thing is what should they do now? What is the next step?

The way I heard Minister of State Grace Ng said is that there won’t be any changes to how TCs will invest. This is the statement that make me boil.

After so much mayhew and they are not going to implement any changes? It just shows how aloof the authorities are and they still believe that they are right ? What the populations believes is another business.

This may probably be the last straw that breaks many PAP faithfuls’ sore back who voted for them all this while. It is a betrayal to say the least especially when we have trusted them with our eyes closed.

Because you the ministers are paid so much, therefore you are held to be accountable. So if the investments prove profitable, you pat yourself on the back and toot your horn and let the whole world know? And then when the investments do not yield profit, you blame everything else but your own lack of insight?

wow, lost peole money can still talk like that

I am very upset with this its people money and hard earned money. Why is there a need to buy such investments ………… now the lost we suffer.

“It’s not just town councils, but individuals and corporations who have been hurt by this economic crisis”

We were told, ad nauseum, that our leaders are the best of the best, and that’s why we have to pay them in the millions for services which are a great sacrifice for them. Now, a dfferent tune is being sung – that they are just like you and me, ordinary folks. Heads you win, tails I lose. Sheeesh!

There should be greater transparency not just from the private sectors but from the government bodies especially when tax payers monies are at stake. Accountability must be obvious. Mistakes must be acknowledged and lessons learnt from them. Shunning off responsibilities is definitely not the way going forward.

Actually Mr Zaqy, the problem with you guys in the PAP are you are the ones that are not straightforward so anything that you guys do is “not so straightforward” all backward actions. There should be transparency 1st on what you want to use the money for not transparency only when problem go wrong. Then again claim its noones fault when its the MP’s decision I am sure to invest in the 1st place!

Yup!

If everyone had agreed on the investments and it failed, then it is nobody’s fault.

If only one went ahead with the investments without the rest knowing about it, and it failed, it is his fault and his own damn fault alone.

Don’t try to sneak away.

Give credit when it’s due. In this case, PAP not only failed to exceed expectations, it is not even doing its job properly. This is a clear case where PAP’s very own action warrants for demerit and public condemnation.

good grief !! It is getting from bad to worse , the ruling people , I mean.. Mess after mess …. mas Selemat, defendent escaping from courts, peole travelling with different passport , and now loosing citizens money – and yet they want us to be grateful and the famous SM unimaginative phrase – move on ! It has come to a point that the ruling party really think we are all helpless people living in fear of teh wrath of teh ruling party . We are at risk of being sucked into an unsconscious cruel dictatioship if nothing is done .

51)smallvice585
There’s no more credit to give, all is lost, I tell you its Big,Big vice.

I think the dots to the entire mess are slowly revealing themselves. And I sense Singaporeans are joinging the dots and getting a really sinking picture about Town Councils and the amount of funds stashed away. Very ugly picture.

So ugly the main stream press are having a hard time to decide whether this out cry can boost their paper sales OR stop printing headlines about Town Councils because it’s not “nation building” topic and suffer sales loss.

The irony is, I think we need a 2 party system for checks and balances. Just look at this One Party mess.

Either you CAN or ……

Boleh or not ?

Erm…. is it not that as it now stands,
in the parl
there are 3 partys : Chiam Party, WP and u-kknow-who ?

Its already a 3 party system ?

DOES IT NOT WORK NOW ?

IS IT THAT THIS SYSTEM DOES NOT WORK NOW?

TOO MANY ALTERNATIVITY?
TOO FEW ?

BECOME 1 ?

I must thank all of you for contributing to the forum about Town Councils losing money in structured financial products.

However, have all of you asked a basic question? Who voted these people into the parliament and then to the government. It is us. When we voted them, did we forsee that they were good for the job; or we already knew they were not good but we still wanted to give it a try? Whichever the answer, it is us to blame; because we voted them. If we do not admit our mistake so do they. What we want is for them to admit that they made a bad investment decision.

One kind of people will produce one kind of government. When we blame our government, we are indirectly blaming oursleves. Do you believe that the Indonesians are not corrupted? If they are not, they would have a clean government. For Singaporeans, we are the timid lot, who dare only speak behind the scene but not asserting our views; so this is the kind of government you get. In every election, all we hope is other constituencies will vote in oppositions except my very own. We want status quo and we are not willing to pay the price of change.

If you want change, you must pay a price. Our country by its standard today is not too bad if you are reluctant to call it good. However, there are a lot of things that worth changing for the better. Are we ready to pay the price? The price may be in the form of a lower governmental efficiency, some chaos and disorder not fatal but would create some inconveniences; some backsliding in economic growth that result in a higher unemployment rate and lower real income. This is something we have to pay to change our current system. I bet all of us thinking through the downside of the price, we choose to still returning PAP to power in the next election.

Blame our human nature–Kia Su. I am offended when people of other countries term us Singaporeans as Kia Su or Kia Si. This is a human nature inherent in any human being regardless of race, language, religion or nationality. If we admit that we dare not change, we must accept the kind of government that we have and perhaps seek ways of getting our feeling reach the ruling party.

As much as I think that town councils should not invest in structure financial products, but crying here is of no use. We should all exert pressure on our MPs and make them change the law in the parliament, limiting the investment activities of town councils, setting guidelines for reserve/sinking fund. Take them to task if they do not reflect our feeling and make changes.

Let us play within the current system and rules of law. If they do not hear us, use your vote to change the government and stop crying here. I challenge all of you to do that, if you do not you deserve my name: “Timid Singaporean”

Better not mention the opposition else the PAP jumped at it and then all this mess is swept under the carpet.

Perhaps that’s why the opposition is keeping quiet. Nothing nice to say better don’t say if not kenna blame for nothing.

PAP is already self-destructing anyway. Wait for the fireworks.

Let us play within the current system and rules of law. If they do not hear us, use your vote to change the government and stop crying here. I challenge all of you to do that, if you do not you deserve my name: “Timid Singaporean” – Timid Singaporean

We need to play within the writtenrules and outside the unwritten rules. All of us here know very well that the calibre of leadership reflects the intrinsic characteristic of the society, but that only holds true as long as the leaders do not become detached from the people for too long. Progress always comes with price and risk. The price which you had mentioned are only short-term and we being pro-Singapore always look long term. In the 60s and 70s, Singapore’s future was very uncertain and citizens paid the price of having their rights curtailed for a long-term economic growth.

Now, we stand again in an uncertain future and it is time we have to pay the price for future growth again. However, the price today is not loosing more rights, but re-establishing the political system to maximise representation of opinions in parliament but also minimise the likelihood of group-think that will squander our future. Group-think compounded by complacency is definitely one thing even PAP is not immune to.

48) Joke : “There should be greater transparency not just from the private sectors but from the government bodies especially when tax payers monies are at stake. Accountability must be obvious. Mistakes must be acknowledged and lessons learnt from them. Shunning off responsibilities is definitely not the way going forward.”

Take a look of wikipedia regarding Ong Teng Cheong, our late ex-president.
Since 1993, lessons have not been leant, and transparency is still opaque.

QUOTE
However, soon after his election to the presidency in 1993, he became embroiled in a dispute with the government over the access of information regarding Singapore’s financial reserves. The government said it would take 56 man years to produce a dollar-and-cents value of the immovable assets. Ong discussed this with the accountant general and the auditor general and came to a compromise that the government needed to give him only a listing of all the properties that the government owns. It took the government a few months to produce the list. But even then the list was not complete. In all, it took the government three years to come up with the information about the reserves that Ong requested.
UNQUOTE

First, they present you with a dead bird.
Then, they start to psycho you into believing that it is still ALIVE!

Aren’t they Pathetic, or aren’t they Pathetic??

To be fair to the town council, they could not have foreseen the extreme events. But that does not absolve from their evasive attitude, dismissing the losses as mere 1%.

Anyway, the govt has a blank cheque to do what they like, thanks to you timid Singaporeans, who vote them in after all those good years, for more good years. What you vote is what you get.

To: sporesucks…

Most didn’t get to vote..and that includes me. In fact, I have never voted, since it is always walk overs. Seriously, it is a mechanism designed by the gahmen to do us in ,i.e. preventing us from voting thru GRCs, huge deposit, policies that gives much negativity to being an opposition member in singapore, etc.

If only, I get to vote next election, I will do the right thing. No fear whatsoever!

I am neither disappointed nor shocked at their reply…I am DISGUSTED.

Dr Teo Ho Pin, coordinating chairman of the 14 People’s Action Party town councils, has said that the investments “make up a small percentage of the town councils’ total funds.” BUT he did not say that for his own GRC, it was a hefty 6%!

This shows he was not being honest. He should do the honorable thing and apologise not only for investing and losing residents’ money in such high risk products but for not being honest. In fact, he should resign because it reflects badly on the PAP which prides itself in being honest in all their dealings with its citizens.

I think Singaporeans can do a few things from now to election day:

1. Be politically involved – i.e. stay in tune with what is happening around you. Go to Hong Lim Pk if you want to just to be involved if there are any gatherings there. It is when one is politically sensitive then he is aware of what is happening. Get an all-rounder views of things besides reading from the ST or TOC. Venture into other sites for alternate views on issues.

2. Discuss politics with your friends, colleagues, relatives as when you talk about them then you are really aware of the ground issues. Many of us go to work, collect pay check and go home and sleep. The whole cycle repeats itself all over until we are insensitive to what’s happening around us. Get involved here!

3. Ask yourself do you really love your country so much that you will die for it? Alot of us are very politically apathetic i.e we don’t care a hoot what the govt does so long I have my three square meals a day on the table, a Toyota to fetch our kids around and a HDB flat over our head. If you love your country, you will want to get involved in how it is being governed as it concerns you, your family and your friends. We are guilty of not asking too many questions, fearful that we wll be arrested if we talk too much, sacred that our family will be harassed when we vote for the opposition. We all know now that something is very wrong with our country. It is all laid out now for the viewing. No one will force you to take another view from what you have seen right before your eyes. If you love your country enough you will want to do something to stop what is going on from getting worse.

4. Visit bot hthe PAP and opposition wards. Learn how they work behind the scene. What are their motivations when they want to get involved in politics? Can you do smething there with what talents and skills that you have within you?

5. Attend Forum talks by PAP and get into the discussion. Immerse yourself in bringing out suggestions for improvement and change even though they may not be implemented.

The biggest setback for our nation is that we have too many people who sit on the fence. They will not want to get involved in doing things for the country. Left it to the politicians. But politics are for the people who love their country not just for politicans alone.

If TC can display such callous attitude, I wonder what will our GIC and Temasek’s announcement be in declaring the losses.

Like what PM Lee says, I believe we need a very top down to bottom cleanup and attitude change, else the dynasty is GAME OVER.

how many people can get conservancy rebates with $12 mil – at least we know the citizens will benefit from it, not the investment banks.

Why did we give it to banks to punt on high returns.

Imagine, if you received 5%, how many percent did the banks get in selling this to you ? 10%? Without any risk to the banks.

Oh ya..That Holland-Bukit Panjang GRC guy…what a bunch of Jackus..and anybody what to make a guess who’s the MP leading Bukit Panjang? Hint: “I feel so rich……”. Birds of feathers..such an irony. There is really nothing left to say about these “people”. It is not even worth the time to say anything to these nincompoops.

If the ruling party meant what they said about being diligence and if MM meant what he said about Singaporeans being complacent and needed a wake up call. Show us your worth please (want to get paid like Corporate, act like one please). Here are a few questions I certainly hope any “credible” MP in parliament need to ask and give a response to the general public:

1) What was the original intent of the creation of TCs?
2) How much sink fund is deemed enough to run a TC?
3) Were there any challenges posed then when the motion to allow TCs to use up to 35% of the sink funds to invest?
4) Can it be made public if there were? Those MPs who opposes versus those who given the stamp of approval.
5) What were the guide lines?
6) Who set the guidelines?
7) Were there any check and balance mechanism in place?
8) When did the TCs started making these investments?
9) Were the constituents being informed?
10) Were profit made through any of the investments made public and the gain made re-channel back to constituents in the form of SC rebates?

Some people whether in this site or those who commented in ST forum or even the GRCs cited here claimed; in the after-math it is easy to pick bones. I beg to differ. It is not bone picking issue. It is neither how much TCs has lost in investments. I fully concur in the most simplistic calculation the 16 millions out of 5 billion sink funds in all the TCs combined are a drop in the bucket. That is pure math. But the issue here is more of concerned citizenry at large would like to know is why TCs are not just TCs. I think parliament at large need to seriously considering changing the house rules to revoke the liberty given to TCs. There are already two known government investment entities created: GIC and Temasek. Or were there more hidden in the closest?

Remember Sirs and Madams or the parliament, you were voted in by the people and have taken your pledge to serve the people and the nation. You have expressed it in your most eloquent manner in many occasions, the ruling party cannot remain in power without the support of its people. We citizenry do believe in your sincerity when you said those words. We too are certain that you all will not fail us. Unless you are telling us the people you all are above the laws and there is no further need for better transparency and accountability and that you do not need us people to vote you come next election time (early 2009 we presume just after budget announcement?).

Thanks to Gilbert Goh for his excellent comments and suggestions.

I would like to exhort all of us, who visit this website and contributing to it to get involved actively in changing our beloved country. Let us not lamenting here about how imperfect it is but contribute to perfecting it.

Whatever course it may take to change our country and whatever price we may have to pay, let us have the courage to do so. If we continue to whine here or elsewhere, our country will remain as it is.

Change is the word but that will only happen if this country has enough brave and loyal citizen.

How did it all become like this in the first place? Who’s idea it was to collect so much from the residents and then use excess funds to invest? THAT to me, is important for residents to know.

The solution for this issue is that they change the way TCs handle money.

1. Have an annual budget approach, much like in the private sector. Plan for the annual spending and costs and calculate the money needed. Plan for contigencies, and extraordinary spending.
2. Then divide that and collect from residents the money needed.
3. Execute the plans.
4. If by end-year, there is surplus, get a vote from residents on where to spend the surplus. OR save it for next year, and collect LESS from residents.
5. If there is shortfall of budget, then that is a sign of poor planning. Those planners need to be taken to task. And usually, the managers WOULD KNOW if funds are getting short, and cut back on certain spending.

The most important element in this is TRANSPARENCY. The books are open for all residents to see. Have govt officials who checks on these books quarterly.

As such, the TCs are focused on what they’re SUPPOSED to do in the first place, that is, to manage the towns. Rather than becoming fund managers and all that, which is NOT their job.

Heck, this simple approach is even done by my company’s Social Club. what they collect, what they spend on, what activities held and money used, current cash they have..its on the notice board at the pantry.

What scares me is that this “collecting money and investing” is so imbued into many govt departments in Singapore, when their role is more to “administer”.

Teo Ho Pin said that “Town Councils cannot reveal their investment strategies and, anyway, Town Councils abide by the proper financial reporting system”.

Is the Town Council similar to GIC or Temasek?
We are told that GIC and Temasek cannot reveal some of their investments or financial reports because of national security concerns. Granted that is true (although I disagree), what reason does the TC have? I hope Teo Ho Pin does not use “national security” as an excuse. The money belongs to residents and, in the first place, residents have no say in how that money is used. I understand. But when that money is used for investment, shouldn’t the residents be kept in the loop?

If the aim of the TC in investing the money is to offset inflation, then I assume the investments they have undertaken are not “high” risk. If this is so, then it contradicts LKY’s view that investors should have been warned of the “high” risk of these products since, according to him, the returns are high. Are they really “that” high? Apparently not so for the TCs. If TCs can get it wrong, then individual investors are no exception. Most of us are not financial experts who sit around reading 100 pages prospectus.

Teo Ho Pin said that “Town Councils cannot reveal their investment strategies and, anyway, Town Councils abide by the proper financial reporting system”.

Since when Town Council funds become matter of national security? They may not be obligated to reveal their investment strategies, but they are still obligated to reveal their balance sheet every year, to inform the public that they are not cheating public monies.

60) Anonymous
……
Take a look of wikipedia regarding Ong Teng Cheong, our late ex-president.
Since 1993, lessons have not been leant, and transparency is still opaque.

QUOTE
However, soon after his election to the presidency in 1993, he became embroiled in a dispute with the government over the access of information regarding Singapore’s financial reserves. The government said it would take 56 man years to produce a dollar-and-cents value of the immovable assets. Ong discussed this with the accountant general and the auditor general and came to a compromise that the government needed to give him only a listing of all the properties that the government owns. It took the government a few months to produce the list. But even then the list was not complete. In all, it took the government three years to come up with the information about the reserves that Ong requested.
UNQUOTE

……….
————-

If it takes a long time to audit,
is it not even more strong a reason to start auditing long ago if not now?
:(

Those investments gone awry- their minds gone awry too and as usual: excuse themselves in drib and drab manners.

We are not only seeing the paradox of a one party rule- but also the paradox of bureaucracy peopled by so called very talented people……….and what we see now…….but alas this is SG- albeit a very uniquely one.,…..

Can of worms number:

1) TCs made wrong investments in Lehman Mini-Bonds. Whether they were mis-sold, whether they will take legal action, they won’t say. And they are defending their “prudent” use of these funds.

2) With so much public funds collected (2 billlion or more) , what are the excess funds for? Housing projects? Lift upgrades? Estate maintenence? Why increase S & C charges? Any use of funds for rebates? Will they open their books for public scrutiny. They won’t reveal.

3) One party system. This is what happens when there is no one to check on them. Just a snap shot of what greater “hindsight” can happen. GIC? Temesek? etc

It is really quite simple. The public wants apologies, not reasons.

Let me give a simple model on how the TCs have work all along:

1. TCs collect S & C fees from the residents expecting maintenance services from the TCs such as refuse collection, cleanliness of common areas and general upkeeping of the estate. Some form of co-payment is expected when there is lift upgrading etc.

2. Some of it (dont know the percentage) goes to the sinking fund whereas others to operating expenses. Govt also provides periodic top up from it’s coffers (no percentage given). What is the optimal level for sinking fund to be accummulated?

3. Some of the money also goes to investment (up to 35%) to boost up the returns so that it will out beat the inflation rate. The one doing the investment must be well versed and qualified. Again we don’t know what kind of calibre is required from the one doing investment. MP Ho also did not help the issue much by mentioning that investment strategies could not be revealed furthering the national problem of transparency here. Whether the investment gains are transferred to be the operating fund is also unknown.

4. TCs GM and board with MPs providing consultative advice runs the show. The whole team of TCs then report upwards to the ministry. How much influence the MPs have on the running of the TCs remain unclear. It is doubtful that they will interfere too much here as MPs also have their own other portfolio of duties. Nevertheless, during Parliament time, we heard Minister of State Grace Ng asking the public to query their respective TCs if there are further doubts to the whole investment saga. So the reporting chain is abit weird here. Who is reporting to whom and who will be responsible if there are any problem? This need to be sorted out.

5. As seen, there are alot of loopholes here reflecting a major problem of our governance – lack of transparency. This is a serious issue and need to be sorted out fast before the people lose it’s faith on the governance.

Hey, guys think about it –

MM Lee heads GIC – you think he knows what to invest (Citi, UBS)

Ho Ching heads Temasek – you think she knows wtf is good (Suzhou, Chartered semi conductor)

I think the whole CPF / GIC / Temasek is a structured toxic product wilting under incapable hands – and we cannot divest from it !

Yup, we should be thankful. As always we should be thankful that their bloody foul-ups are small compared to the rest of the world’s.

Yup we should be thankful that GST is 7% not 15%.

Yup we should be thankful we don’t have a bloody ERP gantry at our door steps…yet!

Yup we should be thankful our MP and ministers are drawing double their allowances and salaries…yet!

Yup we should thankful they are not even giving us one cent back even if they make $12mil instead of losing it.

Come on…..what else should we not be thankful for…..?????

Actually…we should be very thankful they didn’t lose all our bloody hard earned money…right? Phew! Damn thankful..

We can be VERY thankful, of course, that all these scandals surfaced now. 2008 seems to be a watershed in PAP’s history. They can deny, confound, explain away, lecture and even continue to attempt to hoodwink us, but come on, to take a leaf from Jack Neo, we “NOT STUPID”.

TC’s investment strategies cannot be revealed, for the simple reason that they will raise even more questions as to the strategy & intent of the ruling party, and show how nicely TCs fit into this big picture.

Many of us have asked basic questions which remained unanswered:

1. what is the key role of TC and why is there a need to collect excessively, far beyond what would ever be disbursed in the normal course of operations?

2. How can this be reconciled?

3. What’s the rationale of empowering TC to collect far beyond what’s needed for the TC’s services to residents, and then allowing them to stash away as much & as quickly as they can, so that they can continue to ask for payments, while the sinking funds go serve other purposes?

4. If sinking funds are so significant, why are residents still made to pay so much for infrastructure upgrades? How are upgrades costed? Are they conservatively inflated? Are TCs even making a profit in upgrading projects when all the dust has settled & monies collected from residents?

All these PAP MPs still have the cheek to said this kind of things when they made mistakes!! They are worst than my small kid, at least when my boy did something wrong he would apologised….Oh…maybe their parent nv teach or they three “tua pei kong” on top had the same attitude!!!

Singaporean!!! vote the three “tua pei kong” out of the parliment!!!! I think we not only save $10million on their salaries and also billions of $$$ on bad investment!!!

Actually all these hiccups reflect a very serious problem within our society. There is the element of deep seated greed from the top man to the lowest worker. We are all hoping to grow whatever money we have right now even though it is already very sizeable. Let me draw up the list of affected parties here:

1. The govt wants to grow its coffers so raise GST to 7% even though there is a serious recesison going on in 2003 (delayed to 2004) due to the sars epidemic. Alot of items were also raised during the past few years – HDB flats, transport, ERP, electricity tariffs, petrol cost, etc with the reason that the state needs more money. The govt is in need of money so all these services need to be increased. The public suffers. But there is no gambling away of money here.

2. The Town Councils need to invest it’s money as the $2 billion surplus funds may be wiped out by inflation so the cap is set at 35% investible amount. Go invest and speculate in all the toxic instruments for fast and strong gains. The residents suffer. $12 million lost and counting.

3. The State companies hand over it’s reins to the private enteprises such as SMRT, Singapore Power, SINGTEL, Changi Airport so that services can be imrpoved but to boost bottom lines such companies need to increase its’ fees again. The consumers suffer. Public have to pay more from whatever he earns for utilities. No gambling here only that the state corporations get greedy in topping up their coffers despite hefty profits.

4. The country has chalked up an impressive surplus of around $150 billion during prosperous time but in order to grow this amount we invest using GIC and Temasek Holdings as vehicles. So we again invest but now into unprofitable companies such as Chartered, Citi, Goldman Sans, ABC Learning, Shin Corp and many others. The country suffers. More than $2 billion may have being lost here in total.

5. The people have some money because he saves and hoards all this while but inflation is high and the FDs give only 0.5% return. So the common people invest again this time round into toxic instruments like minibonds, Pinnacle High Notes and other so called capital-guaranteed “safe” instruments but were played out when they went bad. The people suffer. More than $500 million alone lost in minibonds and counting.

6. The individual now has some savings as he accumulates them during the good times. He invested in stocks and shares. Now becasue of the crisis, his shares’ value plummeted and he lost money in the stock market. The man in the street suffers. Some may even have lost their pants.

From the top man to the lowest worker, I detected that we are involved in some speculative activity to grow what we already have and ultimately lost everything in the process. Are we too engrossed in getting rich the easy way?

Now the citizens know that PAP is not a pay and pay system anymore, they upgraded to suck and suck till you people goes to your graves. What they only want is money and more money out of the peoples pockets and nothing else. The people of singapore needs to know only 2 things now, i.e. how much money in total has been lost to date and what is the balance now in our nation reserve? We need to know as these are our monies, all our trapped cpf savings could now be dangerously depleted and our lives are in your hands. Do not screw your people up any further.

hehehe,,,like that also can…

NCSS came up with a very exhaustive & stringent Code of Governance for charities in Singapore, and rightly so, because charities, which deal with funds raised from the public & various parties, should be transparent, accountable & responsible in the way monies are raised & used.

Although the Govt doesn’t raise funds but collect monies for services (eg. ERP, S&C) or as required by law (eg. CPF contributions, fines, GST & taxes), it is also handling monies from the public & various parties, only many times more. A similar, if not more stringent Code of Governance should apply to the Govt to ensure that monies are properly accounted for throughout their entire lifecycle. Here’s when the Elected President and an independent non-partisan board will be extremely useful.

I mean, come on, Mr President, for all his credentials & experience, should be adding more value to the nation than take part in ceremonies and lending his name & presence to fund-raising efforts. Which is more important – ensuring the already disproportionately large repository of monies is properly spent, or asking the public to donate more money?

More losses ahead!!

86) logicalman

What about a petition to the President for his intervention?
Or will it be a mission-nearly-impossible for the current President in the light of the late ex-President Ong Teng Cheong last time waited for 3 years to get an answer?

What is the balance in our nation reserve now? How much have we lost recently?

What terrible Town Councils/Garmen we have. Lose our money then say we are lucky. I will rather vote for a dog then PAP………

u rape someone wife & still expect him to say thank you?

what a bunch of shameless idiots….!!

I am wondering….do town council employees get higher bonuses if the investments do well? If that is the case it would give them great incentive to go for investment with higher potential returns (and thus with higher risks). That is how senior bank executives got the world into trouble in the first place. It is called taking risk with “other people’s money”.

we should THANK ah teo for his honest remarks…

bcos i can see PAP downfall very soon…

With all The many things that happens since the last elections…. I really find thatt it really don’t make any differences whether if the current government is replace by opposition party(ies). I know it sounds shallow but who knows…. the opposition given the opportunity may do better thou might not show immediate results….

it should be the other way round and thank the people for keeping so patient still after all these strings of screwed ups by the papees party, just imagine what can happen if this is happening in HK, Thailand or Taiwan, many of you cowards could have already packed your money and getting ready to fled the country by now, such a disgrace to our country and still can brand yourself world class elites, just rubbish!

The ruling party is digging a deeper and deeper grave.
I’m so disgusted, and wonder what other outrageous stuffs that happened in the past which we as citizens were not told. Sigh.

Just a side track. Any accountants here ?

The Pasir Ris-Punggol TC just published their latest annual report on their website. It seems like there is a little discrpancy in the sinking fund on page 44.

http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/uploads/Annual%20report%200708.pdf

The closing balance on 31/3/07 is $144,379,646 but the opening balance on 1/4/07 is $143,509,646. Somehow, $870,000 just disappeared overnight. Can some qualified accountant take a look at the financial statements and comment if this is possible.

Correction, it is on page 43.

the fig iz correct.

u should ignore the fair value reserve

fttb
cpa, cfa

please say sorry.

nobody dare to say sorry.

crowards.

hahahahahahaha

i like teo’s reply. in my opinion, this amounts to a confession that the town council is incompetent and did not read the fine print of the prospectus.

off with their heads! we, peasants, need to see some heads roll in this first-world country self-trumpeting of accountability and transparency.

Why is it the town councils are telling us this news of the losses now, is there a reason to all of this?

Would it make us feel better to tell us we made X amount over the years and now we lost y amount ?

Why is there a need for the increase in charges to the public when we have more than enough funds?

Don’t you think you should return what is not needed in the form of rebates?

Do you not know that you price hikes bleed the people who are already poor , and they have to seek something we call public assistance ???

Who are we ( Elites? ) and who are they ( residents) in the article ??

There is nothing to be thankful about, just do a HONEST poll and you will know Singaporeans are pissed with the lack of transparency

This is only the tip of the ICEBERG. ….. does anyone know if we have similar scenarios of a larger magnitude ?? Please don’t come up with words like hindsight- oversight – no sight…..

Just reverse the role, you be the poor guy who is bled and I take the money that you pay for into the unknown pool called STINKING FUNDS … opps sorry sinking funds and oh sorry we lost YOUR money that you thought was used to maintain the estate in a investment.

MP’s am sure you are reading this, do you know of any other similar situations that may create the same wave but with extreme losses ??

Did we have any other losses over the years t hat the PUBLIC is not aware off ?

Wow. 100 comments. I hope the MPs are reading this..

Total recall here: On 15th September 2007, according to Channel NewsAsia, the HDB said:

… 81 percent of residents said they were willing to pay more for service and conservancy to enjoy the new flat designs. About half of them said they were willing to pay above S$10 more than the usual rates.

And on 5 May 2008, Aljunied Town Council even wanted to raise S&C for the “dirtiest precints”:

Officials also said they will consider raising the conservancy charges for the dirtiest precincts to cover the extra work that goes into maintaining them …

Later, after some public outcry, the town council backtracked and said they never intended to raise S&C.

What do we seriously expect from these good-for-nothing, toe-the-party-line, no-opinion-of-their-own, mimicking parrots MPs? If they do not come out to say what they have said, they would be doing grave injustice to their masters! Just shut-up and less people will know you guys are fools with souls sold to the almighty and minds brainwashed by the establishment! Just collect your easy pay and allowances and keep them under your matrimonial bed!

I am totally amazed with the way how they try to brush off the issue by emphasising its only 6% of the funds invested. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT 12 Million Dollars ( You can provide 4 mil plates of chicken rice to the hungry pple, 2.4 mil free MRT rides, 120,000 house holds getting free electricity bill for a month, 150,000 cars getitng free petrol ) By the way, why are the Town Councils holding on to so much funds but i had never seen my housing estates being upgraded before. Come out and apologise and bow in shame like what the JAPs did.

Strictly speaking, funds belonging to the town council used for investment purposes are at the council’s discretion. Resident’s are only worried that with poor investment decisions councils will raise such levies and fees like sc&c charges– thereby making residents bear some of the council’s loss or negative returns– when, as a matter of fact, they are already considered high enough.

Diversification, and a diversified portfolio is considered wise, especially to spread risks, but “focused” investing, a term used by the legendary Buffett, in undervalued securities is better. (You can invest in various sectors, as long as you understand the business and know you’re buying into say, an undervalued stock of a well-managed company.)

A lot of securities today come across as extremely sophisticated, i.e. difficult to understand, and financial consultants/relationship managers often don’t even understand these products like the institutional investors they work with do, so individual investors often end up putting their hard-earned savings in securities they vaguely understand. They probably bought for the intrigue or excitement, and not really to make returns.

Just what is so difficult about investing? Learn how to read financial statements, how to detect if they are not ‘doctored’, if they’ve been audited by a good firm; how to chart historical earnings, return-on-equity, debt-to-cash ratios and so on and then decide whether to buy or not. That is investor responsibility.

If you like roller-coaster price movements, they should just go to the amusement park or something. And if a good stock or security is bought, you never sell unless (i) you need money or (ii), if the stock falls more than 50% in dollar value– which is when you do serious re-assessment of the security and consider your options, like cutting your losses if you have, and only if you have, found a good security to invest in.

After the usual round of checks on statements and ratios on the part of individual investors, projected returns on equity made by the company and by independent and qualified parties should cover the losses made in the previous investment.

Otherwise, just hold on to the sinking security. A fight to the death. You don’t need to be qualified to be an individual investor. All you need is some sound money management. If you’re not willing to do all this, you might as well invest your hard-earned savings in a comfortable lifestyle, like buy massage chairs or something.

Strictly speaking, funds belonging to the town council used for investment purposes are at the council’s discretion. Resident’s are only worried that with poor investment decisions councils will raise such levies and fees like sc&c charges– thereby making residents bear some of the council’s loss or negative returns– when, as a matter of fact, they are already considered high enough. – unqualified (#106)

So what is your point? Are residents unqualified to point out discrepancies in TC’s investments? The only qualification needed is to be a constituent because these are public monies. In the first place, these monies are meant for HDB upgrade and maintenance, so while investment loss may mean increasing SC&C charges, it may also mean reduction in maintenance services and constraint on HDB upgrading programs.

Strictly speaking, funds belonging to the town council used for investment purposes are at the council’s discretion. Resident’s are only worried that with poor investment decisions councils will raise such levies and fees like sc&c charges– thereby making residents bear some of the council’s loss or negative returns– when, as a matter of fact, these are already considered high enough. Diversification, and a diversified portfolio is considered wise, especially to spread risks, but “focused” investing, a term used by the legendary Buffett, in undervalued securities is better. (You can invest in various sectors, as long as you understand the business and know you’re buying into say, an undervalued stock and well-managed company.) All in all. know what you’re buying. A lot of securities today come across as extremely sophisticated, that’s to say, difficult to understand, and financial consultants/relationship managers often don’t even understand these products like the institutional investors they work with do, so individual investors often end up putting their hard-earned savings in securities they vaguely understand. They probably bought for the intrigue or excitement, and not really to make returns. Just what is so difficult about investing? Learn how to read financial statements (including if not especially cash-flow statements), how to detect if they are not “doctored” and if they’ve indeed been audited by a good firm; how to chart historical earnings, return-on-equity, debt-to-cash ratios and so on and then compare with other securities and decide whether to buy or not. That is investor responsibility. If you like roller-coaster price movements, just go to the amusement park or something. And if a good stock or security is bought you never sell unless (i) you need money or (ii) if the stock falls more than 50% in dollar value– which is when you do some serious re-assessment of the security and consider your options, like cutting your losses when you have, and only when you have, found a good security to invest in. Ideally, the usual round of checks on statements and ratios on the part of individual investors, projected returns on equity made by the company and by independent and qualified parties should cover the losses made in the previous investment. Otherwise, just hold on to the sinking security. A fight to the death. So you don’t need to be qualified to be an individual investor. All you need is some sound money management. If you’re not willing to do all this, you might as well invest your hard-earned savings in a comfortable lifestyle, like buy massage chairs or something.

Strictly speaking, funds belonging to the town council used for investment purposes are at the council’s discretion. Resident’s are only worried that with poor investment decisions councils will raise such levies and fees like c&c charges– thereby making residents bear some of the council’s loss or negative returns– when, as a matter of fact, the levies and fees are already considered high enough. Diversification, and a diversified portfolio is considered wise, especially to spread risks, but “focused” investing, a term used by the legendary Buffett, in undervalued securities is better. (You can invest in various sectors, as long as you understand the business and know you’re buying into an undervalued security and well-managed company.) All in all, know what you’re buying. A lot of securities today come across as extremely sophisticated, meaning, difficult to understand, and financial consultants/relationship managers often don’t even understand these products like the institutional investors they work with do, and individual investors often end up putting their hard-earned savings in securities they vaguely understand. They probably bought for the intrigue or excitement, not really to make returns. Just what is so difficult about investing? Learn how to read financial statements (including if not especially cash-flow statements), how to detect if they are not “doctored” and ascertain if they’ve been audited by a good firm; how to chart historical earnings, return-on-equity, debt-to-cash ratios and so on and then compare with other securities and decide whether to buy or not. That is investor responsibility. If you like roller-coaster price movements, just go to the amusement park or something. And if a good stock or security is bought you never sell unless, one, you need money or, two, if the stock falls more than 50% in dollar value– which is when you do some serious re-assessment of the security and consider your options, like cutting your losses when you have, and only when you have, found a good security to invest in. Ideally, after the usual round of checks on statements and ratios, projected returns on equity made by the business or company and by independent and qualified parties should cover paper losses in the existing investment. Otherwise, just hold on to the sinking investment. A fight to the death. So, you don’t need to be qualified to be an individual investor. All you need is some sound money management. If you’re not willing to do all this, you might as well invest your hard-earned savings in a comfortable lifestyle, like buy massage chairs or something.

Strictly speaking, funds belonging to the town council used for investment purposes are at the council’s discretion. Residents are only worried that with poor investment decisions councils will raise such levies and fees like c&c charges– thereby making residents bear some of the council’s loss or negative returns– when, as a matter of fact, the levies and fees are already considered high enough. Diversification, and a diversified portfolio is considered wise, especially to spread risks, but “focused” investing, a term used by the legendary Buffett, in undervalued securities is better. (You can invest in various sectors, as long as you understand the business and know you’re buying into an undervalued security and well-managed company.) All in all, know what you’re buying. A lot of securities today come across as extremely sophisticated, meaning, difficult to understand, and financial consultants/relationship managers often don’t even understand these products like the institutional investors they work with do, and individual investors often end up putting their hard-earned savings in securities they vaguely understand. They probably bought for the intrigue or excitement, not really to make returns. Just what is so difficult about investing? Learn how to read financial statements (including if not especially cash-flow statements), how to detect if they are not “doctored” and ascertain if they’ve been audited by a good firm; how to chart historical earnings, return-on-equity, debt-to-cash ratios and so on and then compare with other securities and decide whether to buy or not. That is investor responsibility. If you like roller-coaster price movements, just go to the amusement park or something. And if a good stock or security is bought you never sell unless, one, you need money or, two, if the stock falls more than 50% in dollar value– which is when you do some serious re-assessment of the security and consider your options, like cutting your losses when you have, and only when you have, found a good security to invest in. Ideally, after the usual round of checks on statements and ratios, projected returns on equity made by the business or company and by independent and qualified parties should cover paper losses in the existing investment. Otherwise, just hold on to the sinking investment. A fight to the death. So, you don’t need to be qualified to be an individual investor. All you need is some sound money management. If you’re not willing to do all this, you might as well invest your hard-earned savings in a comfortable lifestyle, like buy massage chairs or something.

“They (residents) should thank the Town Council for working hard to come up with a diversified portfolio to generate income so that residents do not have to fork out more money.”

Sure, and the Town Council should thank us when the bunch of expensive morons lost their job and reputation.
TownCouncil ? Sound to me more like TheConmen ! Just like a scam, give you $1 rob you $1000. ScamBomb, and now Scam Council ? Isn’t I already fork out more money and now you think I haven’t fork enough ? Shame the Scam Council !
Kangaroos, Scam etc .. .Why is it only happening to this tiny red dot legally ? Just my bad luck !

It all sounds so irresponsible.

One needs to manage himself- and his funds- what happens to his funds- and what does it do or lead to-

Absolute trust/faith/ignorance into a community of people doing it for you just doesn’t cut it.

who knows what agendas run them?

who knows what intentions they have? are they really working for Your good?

’smallvice585′,

Quote: So what is your point? Are residents unqualified to point out discrepancies in TC’s investments? The only qualification needed is to be a constituent because these are public monies. In the first place, these monies are meant for HDB upgrade and maintenance, so while investment loss may mean increasing SC&C charges, it may also mean reduction in maintenance services and constraint on HDB upgrading programs.

I don’t have a point there. I was just making normative or descriptive statements. I suppose there are residents who are qualified to point out discrepancies in council investments, although details about investments are not released, are they? Whether residents are qualified or unqualified to point out these discrepancies is not my concern– I just know that they are, that is, pointing out discrepancies. And I can’t disregard what you’ve said about public monies, if only because what you’ve made are normative statements.

From now on, I will not trust the banks, the financial institutions, the town councils, the PAP and their arrogant elitist elites.

Meritocracy led to elitism. Elitism led to Arrogance of the Highest Degree. Incorrigible Arrogance leads to Despotism. Despotism will lead to Tyranny.

That is all I would like to say.

Hi Anonymous (#88)
I support your idea to start a petition to the President to demand total transparency in the TC accounts.
I live in a private condo and every year the condo manager has to disclose all the condo’s income and expenditure in order to justify the amount of conservancy fees he is charging.
Why can’t the TC be just as open as in the private condo?
Surely a govt-linked condo manager should not be given special privileges of secrecy of its accounts.

Yes, good idea to start a petition to show that we Singaporeans care about the way our money is spent (or lost). If you throw your money into the longkang you can at least get the spectacular joy of seeing it float downstream. But with the minibond investment your money simply disappears into thin air secretly and joylessly.
I hope some capable person out there who knows how to start this petition will take the lead.
I will definitely sign the petition. The number of signatories will prove to the government that the ground is not sweet. Let us hope we can get more than the 40,000 petitions we obtained against Durai’s NKF, leading to his resignation.
Let’s further hope that with enough signatories Mr Teo Ho Pin will also voluntarily resign from managing the TC. We need someone with financial credentials to manage the billions of dollars in our TC investments.

Hi #88 & #115,

Petition to the President? of which country? Gosh..where have u two been for the past few years?

Have you ever seen nathan make any statement whenever some serious sh*t hit the fan?

He’s only good at presenting awards to the Star Search and make his presence felt during the National Day Parade.

I hope everyone. Yes, everyone will get rid of some of the idiots in government during the next General Election in 2011.
DO NOT BE BOUGHT BY ABOLONE PORRIDGE, BRIBES AND HANDOUTS.
You are only one of them if you do.

Yup!

Voting is not about the 9 days of campaigning. Don’t expect anything more than 9 days but do go ahead and expect less.

Voting is about what the govt does from the day they took office. Look around you and make your decision NOW! Not when the goodies start landing on your laps.

Take the decision now and stick with it, sleep with it and be prepared to die with it. Do not let it go until you see the changes you want to see.

Decide now!

Observer(SG-HK) #Post 69;

well said with regard the functions and duties of establishments and individuals.

Each should confine itself, his/herself to the role and duty asssigned, that is a doctor heals patients and not sell jewellery, a town council manages the estate and not dabbles in investments.

Town Councils and for this matter any other Government Agencies SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO GO BEYOND ITS’ ASSIGNED OR STIPULATED FUNCTIONS AND DUTIES. THIS IS SIMPLY FOR PROPER ADMINISTRATIONS AND NOTHING MORE.

patriot

24 million over 6 years = 4 million a year

Loss this year (in 1 year) 8 million = YOU SHOULD BE THANKFUL

Charities Money = Public Must Know Full Account

Town Council Money (Public Funds) = YOU DONT NEED TO KNOW, JUST BE THANKFUL

Individual Invest in non-principle guaranteed Fund loss everything = greedy, deserve it

Town Council Invest in non-principle guaranteed Fund loss everthing = YOU SHOULD BE THANKFUL (nevermind lets just move on)

Which would you rather hear?

“We made less money this year …”

“We lost your total principle …”

Why cannot just say “we will be more careful”

Whack you with “YOU SHOULD BE THANKFUL”

Seriously out of touch with the people. “No Bread? Ask them to eat cake then”

“They (residents) should thank the Town Council for working hard to come up with a diversified portfolio to generate income so that residents do not have to fork out more money.”

Teo Ho Pin, Chairman, Holland-Bukit Panjang GRC

Isnt it the town council’s job to work hard for its residents and thankful to the residents that residents pay them salaries n not the other way? so aft losing $$$ with ‘a diversified portfolio’ , should we be thankful too?
SHAME SHAME, Mr Teo.

“The Town Councils did not foresee the financial tsunami and its impact on complex structured products.”

Teo Ser Luck, MP Pasir-Ris Punggol GRC

I though govt only select the best n pay you guys the highest in the world? so it seems govt and its social institutions r al-not-mighty after all? then take a pay cut, reduce the bonus of the top management team in the town councils’ and consider replacing them. For the salary the citizens pay, we only accept successes (like real madrid FC) n no failures.

“It’s not just town councils, but individuals and corporations who have been hurt by this economic crisis.”

Ho Geok Choo, MP, West Coast GRC

Where and what’s the link between the former n latter?

“We have to be realistic. It’s easier to say things with hindsight, but it’s not so straightforward.”

Zaqy Mohamad, MP of Hong Kah GRC

Ya being realistic….where are the former apologies and explanations? how is the town councils going to rectify this probs in order to be fair to its residents? what can be done to in future?

Dear All,

Thank you for your contribution and comments.

When we asked why our government need to hoard so much money in the coffer and so do the government agencies like town council? We are askisng a basic question again.

The political system in the world, pardon me if I am wrong, are divided into three types. Type 1, a strong authoritarian government, good examples are Singapore and China, bad examples are North Korea and some others. Type 2, “democratic” government, good examples are UK and US, bad examples are Malaysia and Taiwan. Type 3, “socialist” government, good example, the Scandinavian countries like Norway and Denmark, bad examples are the European countries, which are debt laden because of welfarism.

The type 1 countries are usually rich as the government suck all the money and manage it centrally. This type of countries do not need to beg anyone for fund to develop any infrastructure and they can pay their government officials handsomely. The money are parked at various level, the national level, the state owned companies level and even statutory boards controlled by the government. Every such entity has a budget to meet. Singapore is one typical example and China is learning that very fast.

Type 2 countries are usually economically strong but the government need to move the private sector to achieve their goals. Like Malaysia and Taiwan, the money are parked at companies controlled by the political parties. The politicians can use the money for their campaigns and paying their friends but not for the good of the general public. These countries have difficulties developing infrastructure with a competitive edge, as doing so will be asking the parties to cough out money from their pockets. When one party proposes a good project, the other party will object and vice versa because all parties are drawing money from a common pool.

Type 3 countries put the money in one basket but use them mostly for the people though the political parties still draw some money from this basket. The people tend to enjoy more benefits but this type of system would always end up in a lot of wastage and as a result, these countries impose high tax rate, low external investment and less vibrant economy.

The question we should ask ourselves is do we want a country that is strong, able to build any infrastructure that is good for the people and maintaining a competitive front to attract investment from the world over? This is what our country is presently. However, we have no say in those wealth accumulated, the so-called “smart and good” people will manage it for us. Most time they are right, once in a while they are wrong but do not expect them to apologize.

Or we want a country that is more pluraistic, and the money are managed by different parties? We must make do with lesser development and less efficient government and slower economic development, but one good things is when one party is wrong, the other parties will attack them and unravel everything in public. The additional benefit is you get to enjoy the show and join in the bashing of politicians.

Or last but not least, we want to pay more tax and all enjoy to waste some money here and there? In this way, we get to control a large part of the money but waste them in kinds of benefits and bear in mind you will never be able to turn this wealth in to cash and keep it in your own saving accounts.

I have no answer to that, fellow Singaporeans, can you make a choice?

Hi Timid Singaporean,

Anything else besides the economic equations of politics?
Politics cover a larger spectrum than that you’ve described above.

Let’s hear all your views before we comment further?

dun need to be so complicated, people just want to be spoken to respectfully by those who they elected and support, there is no need speak in such an arrogant tone …

last night while watching the news i saw mr vivian balakrishnan giving a speech where he said something like “how you behave in a crisis is more important that when you are on top”

i think he needs to speak to his fellow ministers … they are not behaving well

I am sorry Gemami, politics is about how to cut a pie and share it. All else, the idealism, value and philosophy are just packaging.

Just like selling you a piece of cake, the bakery will wrap it up in nice plastic sheet, tie a ribbon and then in a nice box. All the wrappers are of no use, the cake within it is what you really aim for.

Timid Singaporean:

That was a niece piece but yes it is full of economics but that is important as if you don’t manage the country’s surplus well the country will be in trouble.

I believe by now all of us know that there is no perfect political system on how one governs a country. PM Lee advocates a limited one-party democratic system that allows one Team A govt to manage the country. It has it’s inherent disadvantages and advantages:

Advantages

1. Consolidation of power and more importantly resouces as we are limited in talents. There is some truth here and PM Lee is not wrong entirely as we are a small nation with limited resources to spare.

2. Ability to carry our reforms swiftly as decision making is confined. As one-party system has no strong opposition, there is less debate and more action. Yes, things get done here faster than a two-party system. In fact, I was a PAP supporter before because it has done superbly under LKY and GCT but I have my doubts under the current regime.

3. Stability factor. This is important as MNCs and trading partners will feel secure that we are politically stable and sound. In fact, this is one of the main factors why we are doing so well for a small country. Politically, we are considered very stable compared to our neighbours.

Disadvantages:

1. Lack of a stable check and balance system – this is so apparent especially lately with so many hiccups. Self-checking can only do so much in a one-party system and in fact it can lead to alot of cover up as people will think that it’s self checking system has fail. That is why the US system has Congress to check the power of the US President. The two-parties system neverthless does have the issue of politicking and infighting but the public feels secured that there is a check system in place.

2. Group think mentality – a one-party system tends to have this group-think mentaltiy. It is not the fault of the politicians but when a party with similar mind frame comes together, they tend to agree on a similar pattern of action and vision. To think differently makes one feel alienated and foolish. Many historicians have pointed to this dangerous effect of a single party or group holding on to absolute power. The Japanese have this problem during WW2 as even though some generals felt reluctant to go to war globally, they could not really speak up without feeling that they are different and alienated. The same happened in Germany when they persecuted the Jews.

3. Lack of competition – research has shown that business monopolies will not thrive well as they lack competition. In any businesses or political parties, competition gears them up and keeps them on their edge. They will think of ways to do better and will not sit on their laurels. A one-party system does not have the opportunity to want to do better. Most of their urges have to be self-propelled and over time, this is difficult as most of our challenges come from having to compete with someone else. It can be seen clearly that since the past GE, our politicians have slackened. They have done alot of things for the good of the country but these have not translated into benefits to the people.

I still feel that the current political system is sound for the country. Having live in Australia, I realised that the country is almost bankrupted for their solid social welfare benefits. Politicians work over time to please the people sometimes at the detriment of the country. Nevertheless, we need to have a good opposition to check the govt. If the govt really cares for the country, they should let the opposition flurishes, it is for the good of the country but not for the ruling party of course.

Having live in Australia, I realised that the country is almost bankrupted for their solid social welfare benefits. Politicians work over time to please the people sometimes at the detriment of the country. – Gilbert Goh (#127)

Why are you so biased towards welfare?

I still feel that the current political system is sound for the country. – Gilbert Goh (#127)

Nevertheless, we need to have a good opposition to check the govt. If the govt really cares for the country, they should let the opposition flurishes, it is for the good of the country but not for the ruling party of course. – Gilbert Goh (#127)

The political system is only as sound as the calibre and integrity of the politicians participating in it. Without check and balance, integrity has already collapsed, and with integrity lost, there is no point talking about calibre because the politicians’ interest are no longer aligned with the country and its people.

No. 126 Timid Singaporean “I am sorry Gemami, politics is about how to cut a pie and share it. All else, the idealism, value and philosophy are just packaging”

That’s one way to simplify politics, but let’s ask ourselves why is there a need for a Govt in every country. Is it just to cut a pie and share it? To answer that, look no further than a family. Do we, as parents, see this as our only role at home? While there may be exceptions, most reasonable people will see their responsibilities as parents extend beyond providing for the material needs of the family.

It’s the same for the state. Leaders are put in place, not just to achieve economic targets. If this were so, a country may relentlessly pursue economic gains at the expense of other equally important aspects of a society, which include social and psychological well-being, security, environmental preservation, among others. For a clue, look at what Total Defence represents for Singapore. If it’s important to defend these areas, is it unreasonable to infer that the leaders of Singapore have the ultimate responsibility to embrace these goals fully and equally in their policies and actions?

I strongly believe that Singapore started this way, and we did well in various aspects up to the 90s because we subscribe to shared values in relation to the above. However, under the guise of pursuing excellence, we start to neglect the non-economic and unquantifiable aspects of this society. Policies and decisions are geared towards propelling the economy onto the world’s stage. Nevermind if the social and economic divide on the ground has widened significantly in the process. GDP seems to be over-rated in our Govt’s focus because we know this translates into higher gains for the Govt, which in turn enables them to do more, BUT mostly without translating into benefits for the ordinary people.

Singapore has never been in favour of welfarism and I support that. Most people won’t like to have the crutch mentality. Lately, however, internal and external economic pressures have forced many to turn to help from VWOs, churches, temples, and the Govt. It’s not healthy in the long run, as these people will be trapped in a vicious cycle – economically, socially, and emotionally. Many & TOC have pointed out that the escalating costs of living should & can be reversed, as they are mostly due to Govt decisions and policies (think privatisation of essential services, increase in tax burdens, transport costs, CPF policies, wage depression due to influx of foreign workers, etc).

If our Govt continues this one-track pursuit of economic excellence, we can change the Singapore flag for good.

Up till now, the red symbolises “universal brotherhood and equality of man” and white “pervading and everlasting purity and virtue”, while the moon “represents a young nation on the ascendant” and the five stars “stand for democracy, peace, progress, justice and equality”.

The new Singapore flag should be one full moon as she has arrived from Third World to First. The red represents the blood of people sacrificed for the nation to reach her first world status. The white is gone with Ong Teng Cheong & other old guards who have passed away, including the late JB Jeyaratnam.

You will get the reverse of the Japanese flag. Is that beautiful or scary?

Greedy people get sucked in by others. The PAP has fostered a culture of “greed is ok” or even good by insisting that they get paid astronomical salaries even in bad times. Singaporeans just sit and applaud. The people lower down all suck up to the ones at the top and try to outdo each other so they can remain on the gravy train or even move up to the front carriages. Is it surprising then that these “elite” people have forgotten basic logic and caution? They all want to show how much more money they can make and hope to have favor shine on them! In any case, our leadership worship investment bankers believing them to know all…..hence they have taken their sales pitch hook, line and sinker. I believe many of these investment bankers have permeated the senior levels of our government investment agencies, it would be interesting to know how much damage has been sustained there, a few % there would be disaster!!

Thanks to all of you for your comments, especially from Logicalman.

I agree with you that a gvoernment should not only focus on economic development but also on other equally if not more important things. However, I am describing a polticial system rather than the responsibility of a government. I am afraid cutting the pie is not about achieving economic targets. Cutting the pie is at a higher level than the targets and objectives of a government. It is the basic philosophy of a country. Politics and political system are dealing with this level of affairs. Not matter what kind of “pie cutting” philosophy a country choose, the responsibility, targets and objectives of the government are no different from another country that chooses a different philosophy. Every government is expected to develop the economy, the infrastructure, the social structure and the environment etc.

Every political system starts from cutting the pie, or in better words, allocation of resources. Our authoritarian style has its unique way of allocating the country’s wealth, which is decided by one party. As they have the absolute power to allocate wealth, all else falls into place. The advantages of this system, I do not have to repeat them but at the same time it produces a lot of excesses, which we do not like to see. That is why, you and I are here to discuss them. My point is how to minimize the loss on the advantages and yet develop a political system that is more egalitarian and transparent.

I must point out a basic fact that no matter what system you choose, there is always wealth to be divided. You may want to choose parking most of it with the government agencies, government linked companies like in Singapore; or parking them under private companies and these company are in turned controlled by political parties or people, who are closely connected to the political parties. The less of the two evils is still parking the wealth with state owned enterprises and government agencies. At least, these monies do not belong to any private individuals or politicla party controlled entities.

However, I strongly believe that the wealth while being parked at the various agencies and government linked companies, it requires scrutiny by a parliament, which is formed by two parties. Like Gilbert said, that provides check and balance on how the wealth are being managed. With due respect to PM Lee, I disagree with him that our country is not suitable to have a two-party system.

All that I said so far is about changing our country’s system, it is something fundamental and far ranging. We must be prepared to pay the price if we want a two-party system. Every Singaporean must support it and accept that the change will bring about loss of some efficiency and perhaps some retardation in economic development. We must dare to try voting in people, whom we are not familiar with and do not know enough about their capabilities. If we are timid and we are not willing to sacrifice something, we will always be whinning here. If there are people of good character, regardless of wthether they are from opposition parties or they are indpendent politicians, and even if they do not have any experience, we must have the guts to vote them in and try them out.

There is no point of bashing the ruling party here. Every Singaporean knows exactly what they do not like and also what they like about the ruling party. I want to put it to every fellow Singaporean here, if we want to see changes, we must pay a price and be brave. I am not advocating for replacing the ruling party, after all they form a good government that you can not easily replace. I am advoating for a gradual development into a two-party system. Any change to the system, is like making an investment, where there is potential gain there is also risk involved. We must not regret making the investment, even if we are wrong.

Do you think SM Lee Kuan Yew knew that he could develop Singapore to the state it is today on 9 August 1965? I bet he had no clue then. However, he pressed on with every good and bad decisions he made over the years. The good ones every benefits, but the bad ones, he bear the responsibility and rectify them. The importance is he has the support of Singaporeans and everyone close rank with him to sail through the good and bad times.

If we want change, we must have the support of most Singaporeans. If the change brings about good result, everyone enjoys it and we may count it lucky. If the change brings about bad result, everyone must close rank to turn it around. If we do not have that determination, once the result is not as good as most expected, and everyone starts to point finger at each other, we are doomed. The ruling party is holding the belief that Singaporeans do not have the courage to vote for a change. I do not beg to differ their belief.

As a Singaporean, and knowing my fellow Singaporeans well enough, I think most will choose to bear my name “Timid Singaporean”.

Thanks to both logicalman and Timid Singaporean for such an excellent exchange of views and showing us that political maturity is coming alive in Singapore. It’s good that Singaporeans are now weighing and discerning their thoughts in this manner. We are beginning to arrived as a politically matured people.

There are a few areas I am not agreeable with but I shall not pursue them because the arguments presented by both parties have their merits and might even be true in the larger extent.

I have learned the difference between a political system and the responsibility of a government; and; that both may not go hand in hand. Having said that, I feel that a responsible government has a duty to strike a balance between the two.

In Singapore’s case, the imbalance is too huge that it is clearly lopsided. The government knows this and have spoken on ways to tackle and handle this. But the problem is, they are just giving lip service to it. If they can turn their words to real action, then the imbalance will be addressed and we, the people, would go on to support them in their economic drive for the country, and all will prosper together as a nation. This is what we, here and elsewhere, are whining and ranting about.

We have not tasted the fruits of success after all these years. Less anyone argues that we have, just allow me to ask one question: “What is it that you possess which you can claim to be your own, fully yours for keeps?”. I know the ministers have huge bank accounts for keeps while we are in debt trying to pay off our HDB loan for flats that we will have to surrender in 99 years. Car ownership is renewable every 10 years etc.

What then do we do? Exactly, we whine and rant and even try to offer solutions in various forms and platforms (HLP & Online as examples). Like what Timid Singaporean says, we have yet to fully come out of our coccoon of timidness. But the good thing is we are making the effort and taking small steps to being brave; even bold. This is good to bring about a balance to the lopsidedness. We need more Singaporeans to support this goal.

Excellent views and I hope to hear more from both of you in the other threads as well. Thanks again.

Gahment is elected to run the country and there are many pressing issues facing the country. PAP regime had focused solely on making money and left out all the social issues that needed urgent attention. The poor and needy were left to charitable societies to look after depending solely on the public charity. A more balance approah is needed and more resources should be invested in public health and education. Without a constant supply of educated and healthy citizen, the country will heading fast toward a 3rd. status with a 1st.world income for the rich, especially for our million dollar ministers. Is it the type of society we want? We have all the right ideas but in reality we have a ruling regime that only looked after itself and those who are rich and PAP supporters. When they do give away a few dollars to the poor they make just a dance and song about. It was all a PR exercise with little substance. We were supposed to have the brightest , the best of the best runing the country and if this is what they could do, then we had wasted millions for nothing. One wonder, who is the brain in the gahment. In a parlimentary system, MPs were supposed to have a say in how gahment budget are set and spend. Something is missing in the system or that the popular view is that we have a one old man gahment and the rest of the million dollaors ministers are there just for show and do the old man bidding.Such gahment need to be changed and new blood be brought in to change the political landscape. Our chance will come and we must do our citizen duty to do what is good for the country.We the citizen must decide carefully what is good for the country as our elected or walk over gahment had forgotten what they are there for. A little rememder will do the country good.