Just wondering…shouldn’t we be comparing ourselves to other First World countries, given that we’re a “First World’ country ourselves?

Heard that he is writing again; perhaps the third volume of his book… The first two were From 3rd World to 1st. …

I suspect, the last volume would be entitled, “FROM 1ST WORLD TO 4TH WORLD”.

One look good when stood among the weak and look weak when compare to giants. Any govts that do business with myanmar govt is no better than that regime.

Right now the self-proclaimed world class government looks very ordinary.

It’s about time this govt comes out and tell its citizens openly what they mean each time the tell us we are much better off?

Are we much better of as a ‘Petition Nation’?. How can we be better off if we need to write so many petitions?

Are we better of because we have nice flats to live in? How can we be better off if we continue to pay and pay for them every month?

Are we better off because we have nice cars to drive? How can we be better off when we need to pay and pay for every corner that we turn into; never mind the price one has to pay to acquire one in the first place.

Are we better of when our children are so induced into achieving academic success at the expense of everything else so that they can fit into the scheme of things as laid out by the govt?

Of course one can highlight the good side of it but doesn’t every country has its good side too? What makes a govt great and a country great to live in is when the bad sides are handled appropriately as well.

Problem with this govt is they would always gloat over their success to cover their failures.

This PAP govt led by LHL has not achieved one damn thing yet. There are so many failures and it can continue to survive on the laurels of the previous PAP govt for only so long.

When it comes to remuneration for the top echelon of the civil service, LKY stoutly touted comparison against First World governments and upping his justification by pegging their pays against the tops in the private sector.

When it comes to recession, he has conveniently compared Singapore against its less sparkling neighbours and others. The most damning is the fact that despite making Singaporeans pay for all the expensive staff and policies, we still have to accept their lame excuses for their inept performances which are grossly not commensurating with their pays.

This is injustice of the First World kind. Not much difference when compared to Richard Fuld, the CEO who led Lehman Brothers into the history book.

i really really dont know to weep or laugh…can someone pls tell him to just SHUT UP!

We all have to accept some sacrifices and cutbacks. But compared to our counterparts in neighbouring countries, Malaysia, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Myanmar, Cambodia and Vietnam, our low income earners are much better off.

Do these countries have to face the kind of taxes we singaporeans are facing?
Answer: NO, In Singapore: YES, infact they just help their hands into our pockets as an when they like, e.g. 22% electricity hike

Do the govenment of these countries like Malaysia, Thailand and Philippines subsidized on the peoples utilities, housing, transports and hospital?
Answer: YES, in Singapore: ????? you say

Do the ruling party of these countries sue their alternative parties the way we do in SG?
Answer: NO, in Singapore: we can even qualify to enter into the world guiness book of record for the no. of time they sue the other parties.

Anything else? anyone. . . . . I even lost counts. . . .

He is writing another book? He is just a dying man, looking to leave a good leagacy and history of himself.

Ahem.. yah better off.. haha compared to neighbouring countries.
Indirectly, he just revealed that we have to wake up from our slumber and illusion!
You are not first-world man, wake up, you are better off compared to your neighbours.
If there’s anything first-world about SG, that would be our buildings and infrastructure only. Other than that, our living standard, our rights as citizens, our attitude as people (lack of graciousness) & ultimately the competency of our gahment are all substandard.
First world? Who? Where? Even the elites are very ungracious!

Alex, its first world standards when comparing our Ministers salary and third world standards when it comes to us citizens. Be happy its the “Golden Years” with Swiss standards of living with a gracious society where the PM sets the standards in writing in condolence letters.

we have only 1st world MM, SM, PM and ministers PAy!!!!!!!

Why compare 3rd world with 1st world?
Why not compare UK with SG ?

I believe sg’reans more thrifty than other 1st worlds and this is why they tolerated the hikes despite less than 1st world salary.

The MNCs and businessmen here are lucky.

11) Sad

It’s an injustice to compare this govt’s paycheck with that of the first world nations. Our ministers salaries are out of this world. First world salaries are not enough for them.

Services fares/fees like Transport, Medicals, electricity etc were compared to 1st world and room found for hikes. Cost of living = 1st world.

Employee comparison:

2 males: x years experience, age Y, same degree , same grades, same university, same year graduated, same good looks, same linguistic abilities, same height, same mentality, same beliefs, same same same EXCEPTION : one lives in u-know-where and the other in true 1st world like Europe.

Nett income (after tax) : Different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the europe employee earns more!
Cost of living : both 1st world. look at the cost of taxi, electricity, medicals, car related .. look at all the hikes and sum them all up.

WHY ?

I think I should just shut up and keep quiet, not utter any more word or make a farrt. silent night…..moly night…all is calm….all is bright….future bright bright….do not voice up ….do not complain…..absolute obedience…..absolute concurrence….absolute compliance….absolute no questioning….absolute ignore all issues….absolute think the good news only….absolute support till death…

You want cutbacks to be accepted? We don’t want so many MPs, or MnM, so how? Make them resign? Or retrench them ? And only our lower income workers can match with lower income workers of 3rd world countries. Always want to compare the normal people with poor countries, but when comes to their salary, cant compare with even the most powerful country in the world also. Heck, USA president pay and china president pay and japan president pay combined also cant beat. All for what? To rule a tiny little dot that is not even the top 10 richest country or the money not as powerful as the pound or kuwait money or even the US dollar.

in this bad time the garman shld lead by example cutting some of the unnesscessary cost, for example useless mps (Since 4 mps can do 5 mps job in a GRC) that mean they are many useless mps in all the GRC, n dunno wat the purpose MM and SM wasting taxpayer $$$!!!

yup true true, SnM dunno do what, MnM must teach the son so yea, the country need to pay so tt Pm can get private tutor!

Quote from Lee ” On the plight of investors who have lost money investing in Lehman-related mini-bonds, Mr Lee had this word of caution.

“Please remember, when you get higher returns than what is the average in the markets, that means you are incurring higher risk. So on that message I leave you to ponder about your next purchase,” he said.
”
===================================================

Lady and gentermans,
does this advice apply to TC investment in Lehman’s also?

—————————————————————————————————–
another Quote ” Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew has said the current global recession is the most severe since the Great Depression of the 1930s. And he cautioned that it is just the beginning in Singapore.

But Mr Lee said: “Our reserves can see us through this crisis without going broke, although we have no natural resources, no oil, gas, palm oil whatever.”
”
==============================================================

Oh goodie goodie goodie! I am so impressed by his wisedom.
Although no one can Guarantee when this crisis will be over or
how long it will last and the final impact,
our great super leader can assure us there will be enough reserves to tahan.

If someone tells me he is an economist, I would believe him.

so bombastic leh.

in his mind he might have though”if the singaporean peasants, i mean citizens, cant afford to have a first class lifestyle in a first class country with first class ministers that got universe class pay, they can sell backside in geylang. but be warned, other people cant afford, cause they also poor. thus we need to make cutbacks and retrench them. Not my problem also! i got soo much money! “

Does anyone know what is the Total Financial Exposure in this financial crisis?
We know a bit info on TC investmt and 10k investors invested about 500 million.
Is there nothing else?
Absolutely positively definitely nothing else?

We use info to predict our future.
Without info. How. Confident. R . U ?

USA citizens are the ones to pay for its country’s debt. every cent.

If this is the benchmark by which we make comparisions then everything should be compared according to this benchmark.

Now, let’s start from the top; minister’s salary.

Care to tie your salaries to this benchmark?

“Please remember, when you get higher returns than what is the average in the markets, that means you are incurring higher risk. So on that message I leave you to ponder about your next purchase,” he said.

And why was this type of message not regularly incorporated into some educational programmes on such financial instruments in the public media and in the form where aunty and uncles including many others will get the message.

Why is this only done after the real damage is done where it now only comes as a painful hollow reminder.

Anyone to correct me on the education programmes that were aired in the public media before this financial fiasco.

The Government frequently engages in comparison based on their advantage or convenience.

When it is about GST, they compare Singapore with Japan and many European countries with higher VAT rates. Similarly they compare Singapore’s phone charges with many developed nations.

They dare not compare our national service/ reservist system to example Germany, Switzerland which has a much shorter NS period. Their favourite is probably Israel based on the threats in the middle-east.

When it is about Ministerial salary, not a single minister highlighted the fact that Singapore is a very much smaller economy compared to U.S, China, they continue to focus on Singapore’s vulnerability but so far we have not seen any fantastic performance from our ministers. In fact they are much slower compared to HK in term of Lehman mini-bonds issue, and now much slower in term of stimulus measures compared to China.

“THE Government will not let any Singaporean fall below the poverty line as a result of the financial crisis ”

Spoken like it is MM. I certainly hope this is a sign of the government awakening to its conscience. Making sacrifices and taking pay cut is one way but not the only way. There can be a win win strategy for all if the government were to dig deep into our reserves to help all to ride over this crisis and stop thinking of profiting for the time being. I commented before, two years of less or zero surplus will not hurt Singapore and its reserves. Comparing to the countries cited, we are much much better off indeed. We are even much better off than big brother (not many Singaporeans live on credit so to speaks).

As for my call on interim solution for early withdrawal of CPF, an added criteria could be put in place to avoid abuse by not allowing to withdraw cash directly, but allow citizenry to pay their basic necessity bills (Utilities & Gas, Water, HDB Service Conservancy Charges, Annual TV License, Property Taxes, Income taxes) via CPF through end 2010. The cap suggested remained at S$25K (per household) over a three year period. One commenter blade had suggested to me to do some research and provide data to support the call to authority. To me, let’s make it simple. I like the KISS principle. No need sophisticated data and formula. Given the utmost calculation based on 2 million household (this about covers all of Singapore). The mzximum over a three year period works out to be S$50billion. This is approximately equal to 10% of our SWF. To quote the published article: “….its reserves accumulated over decades could see the country through the crisis without it going broke. ”

If and if this is coupled with reasonable reduction (price cut) on the basic necessities mentioned, I think we will recover sooner than most. China had already pledge to a 4 trillion stimulus package and greater flexibility on the currency policies. This indriectly is a booster to the world confidence and will help the world economy turn around sooner. The job sharing idea that was done up by Kent is a good idea as well to try on (if people are less selfish and more compassionate). Unfortunately, in reality, very few if any will do it. That’s human nature by and large.

Now Observer (SG-HK) has made a reasonable and well thought-out suggestion, could those sniffers who are usually here relay this to your master.

Please do not say that people only know how to do the easier part of complaining without giving suggestions.

“One commenter blade had suggested to me to do some research and provide data to support the call to authority.”

This is their most powerful and convenient widely used red-herring which will make you look as though you do not possess solid empirical data to justify what you are saying.

Are we much better of as a ‘Petition Nation’?. How can we be better off if we need to write so many petitions? – gemami (#5)

Well. It is either petition or a full-force riot to the parliament. If the government continues to ignore petition from the people and maintain that they are only accountable every 5 years (during General Elections), Singaporeans are not better off, whether Singapore is under PAP or the current Alternative Political Parties. The paradox behind choosing the lesser evil is that evil is still being chosen.

And why was this type of message not regularly incorporated into some educational programmes on such financial instruments in the public media and in the form where aunty and uncles including many others will get the message. – Aiyoh… (#23)

We should not depend on the government as it has proven itself to be most useless at the most critical times. It is essential that we the citizens should build up capacity at the community level to help each other in times of need and not continue to pressure the government for handout. At least, we are more likely to be accountable to each other and also more likely to be responsive.

I also would like to take this opportunity to recruit volunteers to work together on a Wikipedia initiative to document the entire minibond saga. This should not be forgotten and this history must be accessible to all. Knowledge is power and I hope through wikipedia, we can create a knowledge base to enlighten individuals through community empowerment. This wikipedia project is a community project for Singaporeans by Singaporeans. Please contact me at wiki.minibond@googlemail.com

The Government frequently engages in comparison based on their advantage or convenience. – Eastman (#24)

Yes. That is what happens when a political party adopts pragmatism. Pragmatism works when Singapore was a 3rd world country with widespread poverty with an obvious target to achieve – to rise to economic greatness. Yet when Singapore has achieved this economic greatness, then we no longer has an obvious target to work towards to, other than maintaining status quo. Yet other problems inevitably pops up, hindering the status quo, such as widening economic and social gap between the rich and poor, the increasing detachment between the state and the people. We need a renewed vision for Singapore.

“THE Government will not let any Singaporean fall below the poverty line as a result of the financial crisis ”

Spoken like it is MM. I certainly hope this is a sign of the government awakening to its conscience. Making sacrifices and taking pay cut is one way but not the only way. – Observer(SG-HK) (#25)

The international standard for poverty line is living at less than US$2/day. If that is also the standard PAP adopts, the PAP government does not actually has do anything at all unless Singapore overnight becomes a bankrupt country.

“Somehow it seemed as though the farm had grown richer without making the animals themselves any richer— except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs.”

25) Observer (SG-HK)

I don’t know if it is possible to write up a detailed proposal to be forwarded to the relevant ministry for consideration on your suggestion on CPF use. It is the simplest and most workable solution to our current crisis that I have heard anywhere from anyone.

Any financial experts or mathematicians out there who can assist?

27) Donaldson Tan on November 10th, 2008 3.14 pm

“The international standard for poverty line is living at less than US$2/day. If that is also the standard PAP adopts, the PAP government does not actually has do anything at all unless Singapore overnight becomes a bankrupt country.”

Come now my friend. Don’t be so extreme with your view. I don’t think they meant “Poverty based on International Standard” that you have cited. let’s be fair and project a matured and rational thinking group of citizenry to our leaders that we do not always rant for the sake of ranting. It does not good to help and it may project TOC across to them as a site filled with “radicals”. We are not. We are purely a group of civic minded concerned citizenry that cares and are in touch with the ground.

So are our local beggars, homeless, $1-tissue-paper sellers… I’m very sure they are much better off too.
They sit on paved walkways rather than on grass and dirt. They have a HDB void deck shelter over their heads compared to cardboard or bridges. There’s also sufficient leftovers at a typical McDonald outlet at Toa Payoh to feed them too.
Its not right to suggest how ‘better off’ they are without actually seeing them in the first place.

let’s be fair and project a matured and rational thinking group of citizenry to our leaders that we do not always rant for the sake of ranting. – Observer (SG-HK) (#30)

Am I ranting? Am I radical? Am I ahead of my time?

Donaldson,

Let’s not jump the gun and be trigger happy. Let’s see the unveil plan as the government promised and we can follow up on that. I am sure TOC will have a report or an article related to it. Life’s too short to take every point to task. Why not channel our energy as a whole in helping to find ways to help our fellow needy citizenry?

I am already beginning to feel giddy trying to follow the on slot of articles posted and I must admit that I am some lost in the crowd. May be age is really catching up with me. So please excuse me if I happened to tick you off.

This is their most powerful and convenient widely used red-herring which will make you look as though you do not possess solid empirical data to justify what you are saying. – Hello Everyone (#26)

If the government were to withhold information and data from the public, then it does not have the right to tell the people to acknowledge they know better because they themselves artificially created this situation.

Come now my friend. Don’t be so extreme with your view. I don’t think they meant “Poverty based on International Standard” that you have cited. – Observer (SG-HK) (#30)

What I had highlighted in my statement is that there was no clarification what the poverty line. If no clarification is made public, then citizens are most probably being duped into thinking the government will do anything. It is similar to the DBS High Notes 5 saga whereby DBS stated that DBS will compensate investors whose unique situation did not meet DBS standards, yet DBS remains adamantly silent on what this standard is.

The way I see it, there are three parts to the quote:

1. ” We all…” — Spoken like a true leader: “We are in this together”

2. “…compared to…” — comparison with neighbours meant to motivate all and give reason why we are in this together.

3. The punchline that kills…..“…sorry folks, you’re still better off than the rest…” —

Donaldson,

I know you meant well. But you too know they are politicians and MM is at his best as an old guard. There can be no clear cut clarifications in his/their announcement otherwise they cannot recourse (sad but true). gemami has a point, at the end of the day, it could be his assumption is right and I rephrase “…sorry folks, we’ve given our best and this is the best we can do for you, the rest is up to you to play a part”.

On the DBS highnote/minibonds issues. I want to draw your attention to what Hong Kong legislative council (or rather the pan democratic representatives) is trying to do. No doubt they wanted to help the affected people, and they are going all out to invoke their legislative rights to bring the banks to court. Whether this (if the motion is voted and pass) will help or drag the issues on claim, is anybody’s guess (i.e. 50/50). If the banks are cornered, they will back-off from any out-of-court settlement and put on their defense “cohesively amongst banks to protect their industry” (contractually, the investors are in the disadvsantage until they can provide out-right-proof that they were clearly mis-sold ~ we know how hard that is going to be). Who will suffer most at the end?

#34) “If the government were to withhold information and data from the public, then it does not have the right to tell the people to acknowledge they know better because they themselves artificially created this situation.”

Well, we have put ourselves into this labyrithine kind of dead end situation – where we need to find for ourselves and put together whatever missing pieces that we may happen to find floating around, and be pleased to come out with whatever flimsy & scant picture of understanding. Unique ?

Well, we have put ourselves into this labyrithine kind of dead end situation – where we need to find for ourselves and put together whatever missing pieces that we may happen to find floating around, and be pleased to come out with whatever flimsy & scant picture of understanding. Unique ? – Hello… (#37)

It is good that Singaporeans are starting to demand for more transparency and disclosure.

“38) Donaldson Tan on November 11th, 2008 3.28 pm
It is good that Singaporeans are starting to demand for more transparency and disclosure.”

It is moving towards the right direction. Both the governing and the governed must grow politically.

Sometimes it is really ‘hurting’ to see that we have such an ‘obedient & fearful’ citizenry treated like children and with those people up there behaving in that higher-than-thou fatherly manner.

It is a first world life for millions dollar ministers but 3rd. world for the poor and disadvantaged Sinkapore citizen. For those Sinkaporean who managed to fix into the persent system to spare a thought for their children. Change we must have and change we will. Just remember to vote wisely come the ( GE) general election. We must change for the sake of our children. Beside exploiting its own citizen the PAP regime closed both eyes and alowed busineses to exploit foreign workers as well. All these acts will catch up with us as a country. One wonder what legacy LKY had in mind to leave behind when his time is up. With Global warming changing the Earth landscape and the opening up of the Northern passage between Asia and Europe via the Russian Arctic reducing journey time by 25%, big changes are in the pipeline that we have no control over it. It is time to seriously open the debates to all interested citizens.