Andrew,

I agree with your view. It is indeed a step in the right direction for the political leaders and senior civil servants to take a pay cut at this time of great financial and economic turmoil. Credit to them.

At least now when they come out to request company managements and employers to take a pay cut and only carry out retrenchments as a last resort, it will not sound too hollow.

While I still have issue with the existing way of benchmarking their salaries, it is time to put it to rest for the time being. I’m sure it would be an issue during the next GE.

This is a good article as it shows that TOC is willing to give credit when due.

I also commended the govt for forfeiting the pay rise which is the right thing to do now. A 19% pay hike is actually alot as the current PM pay is around $3 million a year. If the hike is effected, the PM new pay will be an astounding $3.6 million!

Like TKL here, I am concerned that our people will find the situation tough to handle. Most of us live from hand to mouth especially for those that earn below $1500 a month. When they lost their job, it is extremely difficult. They can appeal to CDCs for some financial aid but is limited in form and substance. I know as I worked in CDCs before for a stint.

As a personsl agenda, I am pushing for the govt to intiate some form of unemployment benefits for those who are jobless. The jobless figure is expected to hit around 100,000 next year if not more. Many will find the situation very trying and difficult.

PM Lee has all along said that he will ensure that aid will be offered to those who are poor and needy. Some of the middle income earners may also need such aid and from my experience, it is not readily available to them. CDs are also currently not ready to offer any job assistance to PMETs – professional, managers, executive and technician.

In fact, TOC can also get involved here by starting a thread for those who are jobless to network ehre. Some who are looking for manpower can come here to advertise for free and our jobless readers can apply for such jobs.

Beside being a political site, it is equally important that it’s vision should be also to extend a helping help to those who are in need right now. By combining politics with ground work, TOC will be a very lethal political site to be reckoned with.

Good for you Andrew. I do agree that credit is due for their good gesture (referring the pay cut and voluntary deferment). It is a small step to show that at least they have not totally lost their conscience. I do hope this is not just once off effort to show their sincerity that they do care and are willing to listen and be in touch with the ground. But I certainly hope more can be done at ground level.

What is more significant is the upcoming budget announcement. What “real help” of substance will be contained in it for the less fortunate and people who badly needed help to make ends meet to ride through the entire recession? Never mind the term ‘welfare’ or whatever. If it is a budget that is genuinely tailored towards helping the poor, boost the local economy, create market confidence, reassurance to citizenry at large that they are not left out and whatever good there is, I believe that is what really matters.

Aye, critics will be quick to lambast and politicize it to equate the goodies and handouts as a ploy to gain support for the rumored snap election that may happen right after the budget announcement. In my opinion, it does not matter at all if the most needed citizenry are receiving substance help and being taken care of. I will agree with critics if somehow the budgetary stimulus packages meant to provide assistance to the most needed citizenry came with strings attached. Until then, I think I agree with Andrew, credit is due this time for their effort.

There will always be differing views regardless how this budget unveil itself and how much is done or how much is not done or should have been done. I think it is good to hear alternative views. One thing though remained. Just remember, come voting time, the choice is still yours to make (if you get to vote).

There is no credit due at all because there is no pay cut. Since when slashing bonuses is considered as pay-cut? For starters, bonus is not even guaranteed. Reduce the guaranteed components of the salaries and I will agree there is a pay-cut.

“The economy is the key and not the pay cheque for ministers.”

It should be the people’s welfare, not the economy.
By choosing the simple solution of opening up our economic and job markets to the whole world, our economy achieved competitiveness against others.
For the foreigners and our government, it’s an immediate win-win situation.
For the majority of the people here though, not only do we have to face a tougher competition for jobs but also foot the economic and social cost of the extra two million foreigners on our land.
We have paid and am still paying for the additional water, energies, roads, transport etc, to accomodate these foreigners.
Is it right and fair to us?
I for one will not begrudge the ministers pay if they are truly talented in improving our lot.

after pay cut still earning 3 millions, a hugh sum, i think the pay is not commensurate with the talent, because our ministers are not that talented. They can’t handle crisis, everybody knows about it, from the mas selamat case to the Lehman Bro’ case, to the TC case…no answers .

The pay cuts and deferment of the 3rd instalment increase are the honourable things to do, To keep staus quo would not have been justifiable. Let the people accept them graciously. But 2 more related issues needs to be addressed at in due course.

1) When the next financial performance reports on Temasek and GIC come out next year, I anticipate that they would have lost tens of billions of dollars in investment portfolio, and,in particular in the investments made recently since the beginning of 2007. Reduction in values (actual and paper) due to the general market deteriorated conditions is uncontrollable and hence acceptable, especially if they carry gains from the past. But losses in new investments which are ill-timed and a result of poor due diligence and assessments is not it.
The 2 companies employ an army of highly paid local and foreign investment professionals and have, through their links to governtment and international agencies, privileged information. Yet they spent tens of billions of dollars to buy financial assets during the early stages of a serious financial crisis and took on undue credit and market risks when the outlook was hazy and negative. They made a cardinal sin in the game of investment by trying to beat or going against the market and, borrowing the lyrics of a song, rush in like fools where angels fear to tread. The size of the expected losses make it indeed a national disaster. Possibly a decade of accumulated reserves from yearly budget surpluses, which is sourced from taxpayers money, is lost. These are money which could have been spent to build hospitals which are needed badly, to reduce healthcare costs, build more schools, reduce government charges and water and electicity costs and even to reduce tax rates.
For the errant personnel, throughout the whole chain of command up to the top, who made the decisions and are responsible for the investments, cutting their salaries and bonuses is NOT ENOUGH. The right thing to do is to, saying it kindly, retire them. This is not vindictive or retributive. This is the fact of life in the world of finance, carrot and stick. So when the financial reports are out, although we already have a fairly good idea of the losses, we should not allow the establishment to forget what they should rightly do. The problem must be nibbed in the bud or else there will no assurance such atrocities will not be repeated.

2) The foundation and structure of the compensation scheme for ministers and the top echelon of the civil servants are badly constructured and untenable. We all know they were drummed down our throats at times when the economy was vibrant. But it takes a financial crisis like now to show up the flaws and injustice of a compensation scheme which was benchmarked to the highest pays of selected highly-paid professions. What we are seeing is that these private professionals in this time of crisis are suffering not only cuts in salaries and bonuses but for many are getting the sack. On top of all that, these top earners are usually shareholders or owners of their companies and suffer large equity losses. While they get extreme rewards in good times, they bear extreme consequences in bad times. These go hand in hand. On the other hand, pay and bonus cuts for the ministers and senior civil servants pale in comparison. With high GDP, they get the full works of compensation. But with low or negative GDP they still enjoy high, though lower, payments but bear no risk of loss to their wealth. The risk-reward is not aligned. Unfair isn’t it, grossly unjust indeed. We must press for a review and change at the appropriate time in the near future.

Gilbert Goh (#2) said

As a personsl agenda, I am pushing for the govt to intiate some form of unemployment benefits for those who are jobless. The jobless figure is expected to hit around 100,000 next year if not more. Many will find the situation very trying and difficult.

I like the concept of unemployment benefit for those who are retrenched. This is also practiced in USA – an economy that promotes free market and self reliance.

I know that this is not possible, so I like to suggest an alternative. Allow those who lost their job to get a relief loan (subject to monthly and total cap) at an interest rate of 2.5% p.a.

Some details of this proposal, including safeguards, are set out in my blog:
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/11/relief-loans-to-replace-loss-of.html

The relief loan will help them to avoid borrowings on credit card (24% p.a.) and loan sharks (higher interest rate) to pay their mortgages and meet their monthly expenses.

It wil also reduce defaults on mortgages and credit card borrowings, adding stress to the financial system.

If such a scheme is in place, those with jobs can continue to spend (but perhaps more prudently), so that the economy will not contract drastically (something that SM Goh feared might happen). I think that it is a win-win solution.

Further to Tan KL’s comments, an alternative is to allow people to borrow some money from their CPF accounts for a certain amount and time, interest free since the money belong to them in the first instance. Allows for the loan to be payable in full at the end of the loan period. All are eligible to borrow but for the unemployed, perhaps the amount can be higher. This structure maximises cash flow available to the borrowers during the loan period as they will not be burdened with instalment payments. Credit risk is not an issue as it’s their money.

Tan Kin Lian:

Thanks for concurring with me on the issue of unemployment benefits.

Frankly, our govt has enough surplus to provide at least $50 million for unemployment benefits payable for a short period and not for long term welfare programmes like in many developed countries.

In Australia, a person who is on the dole receives around $230 a week subject to strict criterion now. They have to go for training and job interviews. If they decide to reject a reasonable job offer, they will be removed off the dole list.

Sad to say, at any one time, 500,000 people are still on the dole and this cripped the country’s welfare funds. Many are single parents who will not work as they can automatically file for unemployment benefits with young children at home. They simply take care of their kids until they turn age 18 and the dole will then cease for single parents. The payout is also for each kid and if you have a few then the payout can be substantial. Who will want to work given such generous welfare payout? But of course, now, they can file for unemployment benefit as normal adults when their children grow up. This system is definitely not healthy for the country.

Singapore can actually intiate a hybrid form of unemployment benefit. Some form of it is actually being used by the CDCs. They will file for financial assistance subject to strict criterion. Most applicants will receive around $300-$400 a month for 3-4 months depending on the family circumstances. Breadwinners will get priority here. The bad thing about this form of financial assistance is that one has to go and apply for it and the person is subject to a rigorous interview plus a home visit by the aid worker. The whole application takes between 4-6 weeks.

Now, tell me how many Singaporeans will do that? Many who apply are really the desperate ones strapped of all pride and self esteem. It is also for the very poor – those who stayed in HDB 4-roomers and below.

The US system is, of course, better as it is like an entitlement kind of welfare. You are out of work, you apply for unemployment welfare and you get it. Ours is more like a welfare grant subject to very stringent conditions. Many. I fear, will not even make it to the application stage due to ti’s very strict criterion.

As we progress, we need to change how we manage our crises as what we have being doing all along may not work in future. The govt needs to come to terms with this issue. We have the resources and we have a strong workforce. When the people need assistance, there is hardly any where that they can turn to. This have to change.

Observer,

Aye, critics will be quick to lambast and politicize it to equate the goodies and handouts as a ploy to gain support for the rumored snap election that may happen right after the budget announcement. In my opinion, it does not matter at all if the most needed citizenry are receiving substance help and being taken care of.

Exactly. You have read my thoughts. I mean, at the end of the day, what we all hope – and what some of us are trying to do – is to make sure that the govt takes care of the needy. In recent times, especially in the last two years of rising cost, it seemed that the govt was adopting a hands-off approach and letting market forces dictate everything.

Lets see what comes up in the budget. I can only hope that it is not going to be another “political budget” or “election budget”.

For once, I hope to see the govt doing something genuine – and not for political gains.

I agree with the suggestions by simple (#9).

It is actually the same as my suggestion, as the interest rate paid on the relief loan (2.5%) is the same as the interest rate paid on the CPF savings. It may be better to keep the relief loan in a separate account for easy tracking.

Under my proposal, the CPF member cannot invest or withdraw his CPF savings until the relief loan is repaid.

Both Gilbert Goh and Tan Kin Lian have made workable proposals and I hope the Leadership will consider them for implementations.

Simple Post#7 made some good points and I would like to add that with immediate effect, money collected from the people as fees, profits(made by state-owned enterprises), taxes are fully accounted for when used for investments. In case CPF Funds are used for Foreign Investments, members should be informed of the Institutions the Funds are invested in their Annual Account Statements.

As for Town Councils, when there are Surplus Funds for investments, the Surpluses should be used for the upgradings and improvements in the maintenances of the estates. It seemed that despite most TCs having excess funds for investments, fees and charges have been hiked regularly in the past. How very unreasonable!

Almost all Singaporeans are very upsetted by the various investments made by various organizations in foreign companies and the Cause of the Unhappiness, in my opinion, are not the losses. Rightly or wrongly, Singaporeans must have believed that the Amount invested had came from them in the forms of profits made from the various hikes in foods, essential goods and services. Plus the depressed wages and unemployments, Singaporeans are being squeezed hard.

Though a 19% paycut may be a big portion for those making less than a $100k annually, I think those remunerated beyond SIN$1.5 Million Annually should forgo 25%. Bear in mind political office holders in other countries are paid far less for managing much larger nations.

patriot

Simple/TKL:

I doubt the govt will allow the withdrawal of CPF funds prematurely for such purposes. In fact, we have the feeling that the govt is trying to delay withdrawal of retirement funds from CPF to a later age.

I have also thought of the buying of unemployment benefit insurance. This was mooted furing the Sars crisis and at first NTUC I think was trying to come up with something. However, the govt did not really allow it to happen.

Insurance can be bought for such a purpose – to provide a certain sum when one is unemployed. Of course, one will have to pay premium just like any other forms of insurance. If we can insure life, disability, homes, cars, animals and travel why not employment? As premium is paid, the insured can feel secure that there will be payment if he is unemployed.

Of course, how can one then draw the fine line of unemployment? Does one who flippantly quit from one job to another receive payment too? Maybe those who are officially retrenched or laid off are entitled to such form of unemployment insurance payout to ensure that the genuinely unemployed are compensated.

The worse form of unemployment is when in dire straits the person has no one to turn to. Not even the state can help and this is surely the saddest kind of support one can receive.

The gov should take this opportunity to relook their practice of linking high pay to talent. I am not talking about “HIGH PAY” in terms of $600,000 per year, I’m talking about paying about more than a million per year for a civil job. There are something seriously wrong when a gov that meant to serve the public push their own policies and justification for extreme high pay that does not commensurate with performance and talent. The worst thing I have seen is that the these civil servants are severely crippled to do the right thing for fear of losing high pay and prestige. These high pay forbid them to speak up rightly for fear of admonishment of their master, and most simply perform the most amazing stun of speaking rhetoric to the the point of ridicule. On top of them, high gov job do not entails the kind of high risk in private job, and in private job, every senior accountable for his performance and his department, no so for gov job where every senior seem to cover up his lack of performance for quoting it cannot be revealed due to national security and rubbish of some sort, and many mistakes are simply move on and “write off”.

To link high pay to avoid corruption is the most stupid think I ever heard. If the system is transparent, there will be minimal corruption if the people in gov realize that they will be scrutinized by the public. There will always be corruption if the system is not transparent and is not subjected to scrutiny, and in this ground that our system is already “legally corrupted” because our system do not have accountability and transparency built-in, and things are simply move on as far as loss of huge sum of money is concerned. The fact that there are abundant conflict of interest already show the corruption side of the gov especially these conflict of interest do give them opportunity for making money (as additional job postition and extra bonus for making deal).

There are few that worthy to serve as civil servant like Dr Lily Neo, Siew Kum Hong and some others who dare speak the right thing. Although minority, these people give far more value than ministers who simply disengaged with the ground and reality.

LOL, looking at this small little dot compared to the size of USA. The pay scale actually makes US president look like monkey going after peanuts. Not to forget Obama has a pile of shits waiting for him to clear. Who is complaining?

I can imagine the next APEC meeting, Obama likely to sit beside LHL suggesting for a position for him in Singapore as a minister. Why not? We already have Malaysian turned Singaporean ministers here.

it would be funny to turn this into a comics

Kudos or Kotek?

As much as credit should be given when credit is due, I amazed that so many are doing a song and dance over this “grandstanding”.

Pardon my expression but if the ministers did not wake up to confront their own overbearing greed, they are no better than animals for their callousness.

Having praised and glorified themselves of their talents, they paid themselves millions without batting an eyelid. After telling us “ingrates” of how fortunate we are in getting a “bargain” price for such minstars, they caused the poor to be poorer with increases with GST, utilities tariffs, transportation cost, etc. They expertly make Singapore poorer with their clever outvestment in ShinCorp, UBS, Merrill Lynch, Citigroup ABC Learning by the billions!

Having done so many wrongs, to take a token sum off their obscene salary is no bid deal. Just a drop in the ocean to buy votes and fix opposition!

I’m just glad that they realised how complacent they have been.

Count With Me , Singapore!

feedmetothefish

maybe they should invite LKY to become US mentor and see if he can turn a dead fish over. In return, Singaporean will keep our mouth shut and let PAP do whatever they please. LOL

feedmetothefish:

I think what most people trying to say here is at least they don’t feed you to the white tigers lah! That is so much credit they will get. Got it?

why are you guys talking about pay cut as if there is pay cut?

smallvice585 ,
no worry, “everyone” knows that the bonus will make up for the salary shortfor in this round. These clowns will still have their untouched bonus and original salary this year. So these clowns are still rewarded for their lack of performance and poor investment cos only next year “may” they be affected.

These clowns can still laugh and hiphop this year.

leopard how to change it’s spot. If change become cheetah liao.

smallvice585,

First of all, the salaries for the 8 professions to which the civil servants’ salaries are pegged, all rose – except for accountants. As such, according to the benchmark, civil servants salaries would have gone up. But they’re not.

Second, various bonuses for civil servants are also cut.

Third, the scheduled hike to bring the salaries to 88 per cent of the benchmark is also postponed.

So, it’s not true that there is no pay cut.

Regards,
Andrew Loh

On top of what Daniel said in his Post #15, there seems a ridiculous rule(or Law) that no investigation on political office holders are allowed.

What kind of a ruling or law is this and what is its’ implication???

patriot

Our ministers should not increased the benchmark % figure in the first place!! The whole idea of pegging their salaries to top private sector earners is highly flawed in the first place. That’s why no govt in the world has this sort of compensation scheme.

This announcement of “cut” is setting the stage for a likely General Election late next year. The formula for using investment income of our reserves was recently changed and I suspect this is to enable the PAP to fund the big angbao that they will dish out next year.

Oh sorry friends;

forgot to mention that the costs of doing businesses should be brought down as well. Right now, there are much complaint about high rental and I was very surprised that a simple prawn noodle stall has to foot S$1300 monthly for rental and about S$1700 for water and electricity, not including gas.

SHOCKING!

patriot

Andrew Loh (#24),

Singaporeans have been hoodwinked by MSM.

Firstly, pay-cut is measured relative to what is already earned and not what it should be (according to some self-appointed formula). In another words, fixed component of the civil service’s salary is not reduced.

Secondly, the varied bonuses are reduced. Bonuses are not guaranteed salary components. It is merely a privilege and a prize for good performance. When you fail to win the prize, is it considered a pay-cut?

To qualify for pay-cut, there must be reduction in fixed salary and reduction or loss of the bonus. There is no reduction in fixed salary, but only reduction in bonus. There is no pay-cut.

I share the sentiments of feedmetothe fish #18. The paycuts by the minister are no big deal. They are not impoverished or inconvenient by such meagre reduction. The govt should take this opportunity when the country is going into recession to review our political leaders and top civil servants high pay to down to a more acceptable number.

Better still, the pay of our political and govt leaders should be pegged at a certain multiple of the medium pay of poorest 10% of the working population.This will ensure the the govt will work hard to improve the lots of the poor people

Right now, our leaders’ pays are pegged to the top earners and this encourage our leaders to make the rich richer.

Better still retrench some of those MPs who are just sitting there like tua pek kong and some that’s exactly like “parrots”, when master talks, they just repeat, only making some sound and nothing else. Really what we call people born with a silver spoon, but these are born with a silver bath tub.

smallvice585 (#28)

I think lets not jump to the conclusion that the MSM somehow is in on some conspiracy to hoodwink the public. Even Bloomberg has reported on it:

Singapore Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong’s pay will fall 19 percent to S$3.04 million ($2 million) next year as the government slashes civil-servant wages in response to the deepening global financial crisis.

Wages of new ministers will fall 18 percent to S$1.57 million next year, and members of parliament will receive S$190,000, a 16 percent reduction, the government said in a statement late yesterday.

PM Lee’s salary is $3.7m currently. His salary in 2009 will be $3.04.

Watz da deal when you are already way over da top. They need to do better than tat to win my vote. Elite MP’s in ST & SSC still have not been clear up yet as far as I know.

When there is a drought, and the peasants starts to grumble of thirst, it’s prudent to give away some of the water melons growing in fields of their fiefdom and not try to fool them and say the water melons in the fields are rocks.

To everyone critical of the paycut:

Please put your argument together in either a letter of around 600 words and send it to theonlinecitizen@gmail.com, TOC will be happy to publish your point of view. If you would like to construct a lengthier piece for a full article, please do so also, we will be happy to publish.

Zheng Xi

I’m not convinced of the paycut. When the next budget announced and Singaporean gets some goodies, that will be the time when our govt decides to say ..ok..enough of the paycuts..everybody gets your cash, right? Happy, right? Now lets bring our salaries back to the original value..mind you, the civil service is the single biggest employer in Singapore. If they manage to get the civil service happy, they got a large following already accounted for..

I think the idea of cash relief for retrench workers can be implemented, like the dole. Again, without using insurance like schemes and even without touching the CPF, this lifeline can be done. Almost every year budget surplus (part of it) from taxes can be directed to a fund which will allow breadwinners to receive such handouts. The person will receive help in the form of job searches, counselling and training..whatever it takes to allow him to be employed asap. How much a person gets will be calculated base on number of dependants, housing, neccessities etc. Any additional request (eg, loans, non-neccesities instalments) will be subjected to loan application. Once he got a job stability, the repayment period will start (no specific time frame).
I’m not sure it’ll work but needs some tweaking here and there. Just some thoughts..

”

smallvice585,

First of all, the salaries for the 8 professions to which the civil servants’ salaries are pegged, all rose – except for accountants. As such, according to the benchmark, civil servants salaries would have gone up. But they’re not.

Second, various bonuses for civil servants are also cut.

Third, the scheduled hike to bring the salaries to 88 per cent of the benchmark is also postponed.

So, it’s not true that there is no pay cut.

Regards,
Andrew Loh”

Firstly, the benchmarking is highly flawed, both morally and economically. I shall not comment on the morals as it is obvious. For the economic side, where is the proof that their pay should be pegged to the highest 8 of each sector?

Secondly, bonuses are cut? Cutting of bonuses is NOT equal to a pay cut. The definition of bonus is “something given or paid over and above what is due.” They are already being paid for their work, in fact over-paid imo. There is no justification for them keeping the bonuses for the simple reason of their poor performance. Hence the bonuses should be forfeited in fact, not cut. And bonuses should not be part of basic pay. so bonus cut is not equal to pay cut.

Thirdly, the key word here is postponed. Postponed with a capital “P”.Since when is a postponement of a scheduled pay increase a pay cut?Its like telling your employees one year ago they will be getting a 20% increase in 2009, but now you tell them the increase is postponed. Is that a pay cut? I don’t think so.

You can be sure they will not be too slow to reinstate the postponement once its politically safe to do so. I won’t be surprised another pay increase then too to compensate for now. Maybe instead of 88%, it could be 99%?

There is no end to human’s greed if left unchecked. Any argument for a one-party system just sounds hollow.

However, I agree that the focus should shift to the budget and what measures should the government take. Constant focus on the ministerial pays in such times would be akin to ignoring the entire cake for one slice.

I am also interested in how these savings from such “cuts” is going to be used? Would they be used to help Singaporeans directly?

Credit should be given where it’s due.

“But the Public Service Division said the 2009 salary revision for this group has now been deferred, in view of the clouded economic outlook.”

Hmm deferred? Does this mean if the Economic Outlook changes for the better, there may still be a Raise? Hmm wat if like the Budget 2006? Or was it 2007? When the Forecast was Bad but the Actual Turnout turned out to be good. =X

Does anyone still remember the Budget 2007? Where Deficient became Surplus? Where Forecasted Bad Economy Became Good?

Although now i doubt there’s chance for the economy to spike up but we will never noe wat may happen right?

Now I know why our gov lost billions of dollar every year !

The following quotes taken from Lucky Tan
Elitism 401 : Elitism and the war for talent.
http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/

“……you have to pay the market rate or the man will up stakes and join Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers or Goldman Sachs and you would have an incompetent man and you would have lost money by the billions…..” – MM Lee April 2007

We have been forced to pay market rate for most of these incompetent fools, and end up having incompetent man and lost money by the billions ! Indeed word spoken by the same old fart who prediction always hold true albeit in reverse way !

“”There was certainly no lack of talent at Lehman Brothers but it collapsed. The economic problems of the world today are caused largely by investment banks who were known to hire to best people who were paid the highest salaries. It turned out the high salaries didn’t buy integrity…it didn’t even buy competence and a basic sense of responsibility. It was this collection of “talents” with a lot hubris that brought so much economic pain the world. Lehman failed because they believed they were so good they could do no wrong. When the bank collapsed the former CEO Dick Fuld went to Washington and denied any wrongdoing, put the blame on everyone except himself and kept his millions in salary. A few days later a woman punched him in the face at a gym : [Link] – I guess she was just disgusted. See that is hubris, when the ordinary people can see that something is wrong but they refused to fix it thinking they have the monopoly on wisdom.”

No wonder the gov pass down heavy law against those who punch the MP for not doing his job ! No wonder Singapore can only breed hubris when there is so much protectionism for these incompetent useless gahmen !

Can TOC consider using LuckyTan’s article ? Although satiricial and humourous at time, LuckyTan is definitely one rare genius who don’t need millions of taxmoney to write insightful interesting post that reflect the ground and reality. Let others read the post of LuckyTan but disallow comment and anyone who want to comment have to LuckyTan site.

Now I know why our gov lost billions of dollar every year !

The following quotes taken from Lucky Tan
Elitism 401 : Elitism and the war for talent.
“http://singaporemind.blogspot.com/”

“……you have to pay the market rate or the man will up stakes and join Morgan Stanley, Lehman Brothers or Goldman Sachs and you would have an incompetent man and you would have lost money by the billions…..” – MM Lee April 2007

We have been forced to pay market rate for most of these incompetent fools, and end up having incompetent man and lost money by the billions ! Indeed word spoken by the same old fart who prediction always hold true albeit in reverse way !

“”There was certainly no lack of talent at Lehman Brothers but it collapsed. The economic problems of the world today are caused largely by investment banks who were known to hire to best people who were paid the highest salaries. It turned out the high salaries didn’t buy integrity…it didn’t even buy competence and a basic sense of responsibility. It was this collection of “talents” with a lot hubris that brought so much economic pain the world. Lehman failed because they believed they were so good they could do no wrong. When the bank collapsed the former CEO Dick Fuld went to Washington and denied any wrongdoing, put the blame on everyone except himself and kept his millions in salary. A few days later a woman punched him in the face at a gym : [Link] – I guess she was just disgusted. See that is hubris, when the ordinary people can see that something is wrong but they refused to fix it thinking they have the monopoly on wisdom.”

No wonder the gov pass down heavy law against those who punch the MP for not doing his job ! No wonder Singapore can only breed hubris when there is so much protectionism for these incompetent useless gahmen !

Can TOC consider using LuckyTan’s article ? Although satiricial and humourous at time, LuckyTan is definitely one rare genius who don’t need millions of taxmoney to write insightful interesting post that reflect the ground and reality. Let others read the post of LuckyTan but disallow comment and anyone who want to comment have to LuckyTan site.

>>”But for now at least, let us give credit where credit is due. The government has done what many of us have said they should do – forego a salary hike in these bad times.”

Wow, do you really believe what you just said?
Should we really give credit to our ministers for forgoing their salary hike?

All this hoo-ha about ministers taking a pay cut sounds exactly like the sales tactics many shops use – Mark up their prices by 300%, then advertise that they are having a mega sale at 50% off all items. So a $10 item is priced at $30, sold at $15 because of 50% discount, yet the seller still makes a tidy profit of 50%. Win win situation.

In these bad times, people will be more than happy to know that they are not being retrenched, much less to expect a pay hike. Credit should be due to hard-working Singaporeans who are taking pay cuts while working longer hours, just so they can keep their jobs, and not to our already overpaid ministers!

“”But for now at least, let us give credit where credit is due.”

Similarly, hopefully the monks in Burma can be gracious and practice “thank-giving” as Singaporean, that is, thanking the ruthless Junta for stopping the further massacre of the monks and the citizens.

I also thank the robber in Malaysia who rob my friend but yet left him RM$20 to take taxi home.

Andrew Loh (#31),

Here is my case that MSM actually attempted to hoodwink Singaporeans.

This is the original Press Release from Public Service Division. In fact, its title reads “CIVIL SERVANTS’ ANNUAL PAY TO FALL” and not “Up to 19% pay cut for top civil servants; lower year-end bonus” (See CNA Report).

It is a lot clearer than the CNA report and in no way the original press release actually said it was a pay cut. It merely said there is drop in the compensation package for civil servants and ministers.

The next General Election is near, of course they start doing praise worthy things.
But after they get elected again, then comes more misery again for the next 4 years.

A Vicious Cycle… can’t you all see??

Hi Friends,

I want to thank Andrew Loh for lending support to my original posting, where I acknowledge that the Government has done the right thing to defer the final pay increase and to take a 19% pay cut. It does not matter that the pay cut came from the variable bonus.

I do not like the current benchmark based on the top 8 earners of certain selected professions. Many reasons have advanced over the years on why this benchmark is not suitable. i shall not repeat them.

I like to suggest a new approach to determine the salary of the top leaders and civil servants. We have to address, three issues:

> what is the appropriate level of salary?
> what is the banchmark to be used, so that the salary adjustment keeps in line with the economy?
> how to attract and retain the talent in public service.

I will try to submit a paper to address these issues. In the meantime, I wish to give some suggestions:

> There is a statistical publiction that show the average household income in 2007 was $6,280 per month. It rose 9.6% over the previous year. This figure probably reflect an average of 2 working persions in a household.

> I suggest that we take 10 times of this figure as a benchmark, i.e. 10 X 12 X $6,280 = $753,600 per year. This can be the average income of a minister. The top civil servants can also be calculated at the appropriate percentages of this benchmark.

> I believe that this remuneration is sufficient to attract and retain people into the public service. We only need perhaps 100 people to fill the top positions in the political leadership and the civil service. There should be enough dedicated and capable people in Singapore, who are willing to accept this level of salary.

> Those who like the higher salaries in the private sector can move out. They have to take the risk of the private sector as well. In bad times, many of the high income earners have to take big pay cuts or lose their jobs. The high salaries in the financial sector have largely disappeared in the current crisis.

How to change back to a more modest level is a different matter. The “pay cut” is a step in the right direction. Maybe further adjustment can be made in the later years to get the salaries back to a better level (and to use a better benchmark).

They should be happy to only get up to 19% pay cut and not get kicked out for doing such a bad job this year. A right direction? I think it is one that is overdue for many years. To count citi investments and UBS and total their losses, these buggers will not even recoup these losses in their life time even if they work and slogged 24hrs getting 1 dollar pay annually. Such is the huge losses, i do not credit them(these incompetent leaders) with anything more than a “sigh of relief”.
To give credit when it is due … sure but not forgetting the whole picture of their pathetic performance till this date.

I dont get paid 3 million cold hard cash and still keep my job and talk alot of crap and in the end still lost billions of tax payer monies in less than 9 months. Gauge them on their foresight and intelligence, thats what they said when they ask for more more pay. Now we can safely say they are worse batch of leaders ever seen in singapore for more than 4 decades.

Not to mention Temasek losses from ABC learning(total loss 0.5B), Merril Lynch(share price is very depressed), Barclays (same here), Shin Corp(worth less than 1/3) and what’s more? Such losses can be stopped if the gahmen pays more attention to it and take damage control more seriously, yet they let it rot!

How about out TC funds? Same scenario came out! I think i had enough of these nonsense.

I hope to see transparency and commitment on all investments by the gahmen, especially with the new stakes in SC. Now they are willing to let Citi dilute its stake and in the first place dont even invest in it, so much for a great A team. Singaporeans, please open your eyes big dont be fooled by shittytimes and MediaCock.

My test for a good government is that there is qualitative improvement in my life. Since the last election, has my life becomes better? No, I become poorer to meet the incessant increases in every day prices, from food, utility charges,transport charges etc. Every day life becomes harder for me to meet the price increases and packed like sardine in overcrowded buses/mrt. Whatever handouts I receive is immediately negated by some increases. My property tax increased more than what ever handout I received from the Govt !
I do not think the present leadership makes life better for the common people. They just make the rich people richer because their pay is tied to the incomes of the rich.If we can tie our leaders pay to the income of lowest 10% of the working population,then they will be incentivitised to improve the lots of the common folks.

The rationale for a GDP bonus is that the government is responsible for economic growth/recession does not stands. We are an open economy, how can the govt dictate the global growth? Is the govt responsible for a recession? Yes, the govt does maintains law and order,attracts investment,adopt business firendly measures and whatever so. But, this is what a govt should do,do we give a bonus for what they should be doing?

By benchmarking the government’s pay with the private sector, it may lead to an escalating fight for talent, which result in a higher pay without any substantiating outperformance. Besides that, we all know that the security of a govt’s job is much more better than a private sector’s job, surely a risk premium must be taken into account in setting the pay.

Even if the govt wants to use a GDP bonus, it should not be on a yearly basis, it should be on a 5 year average figure to coincide with the election cycle. Since PAP claims to think long term, maybe they should re-tweak that formula.

Most definitely there needs to be a rethink of how they determine ministerial salaries. There is very little moral basis for them to continue with suhc a benchmark.

It’s funny that out PM is able to announce the pay-cut, but unable to decide the unreasonable electricity rates to be cut with immediate effect for the good of the whole of Singapore.

greenhob

thats a good point

whats more important now is to lighten the burden of many low & mid income singapore household

taxes in the forms of utility bills (electric tariff, water conservancy etc), estate maintenance (HDB conservation), and misc (TV license) should be reviewed and reduced as much as possible

[...] Ministars, Get Rich or Die Tryin – Singapore Life and Times: Follow the porridge – TOC: Kudos to Govt for pay cut and deferment – Hard Hitting in the Lion City: Too Much Info – The Lycan Times 狼人時報: Daily Discourse – [...]

I am not touched by such tokenistic gestures.

In fact, I worry what comes next.

I think we will see our CPF being cut next year.

Don’t say I never see beyond simple fools’ vision.

Now that there are some excess funds due to the pay cut, time to lower the burden on lower and middle income groups.

I’ll really like to think highly of our government, but I can’t now as it shows that it is a weak one.

Strong, great men do not need to implement policies to take care of themselves and their cohort. Strong, great men will take care of the ordinary people FIRST.

If a government can’t win the hearts of its people and their utmost respect, then, it would have to be considered as failed.

Even if they were to cut their pay by 80%, they will still be paid more than most
of the world’s leaders. In the first place, they decided their own pay by pegging
to the top income earners ( this way they always win since even in bad times,
there will always be some people who earn much more than the rest) without
consulting the people, but through their majority in Parliament, like most of their
unpopular policies
As someone says, its just plain tokenism.
I still don’t see any sacrifice on their part.

Like I said, their pay cut is to make us swallow our CPF cut later.

Simple as that. Nothing noble about them.

I find the TOPIC- ___Kudos to Govt for pay cut and deferment seem kind of
TOO NICE to them!

Sorry begin too straight forward,,,I don’t think That CUT is well enough!!!

Let PAP buy my votes. I will give my vote to PAP if they the ministers and senior officials lower their pay further by another 40% in 2009 and hold it till 2011. :)

As the saying “Lead by Example”. Our leaders are finally showing some leadership this round.

Singapore is a small country, the elected leaders want to run it like a corporate and not a country is a definite wrong mentality. They have to run it like a corporate and yet keep a decent heart to heart touch to the citizens who elected them.

Bear in mind many Singaporeans want “change” in the coming years. The usual “Do it first, then announce, finally they will accept” policy setting method is not allowed anymore in this fast pace cyberspeed new world.

60) ErniesUrn on November 26th, 2008 5.59 pm

Let PAP buy my votes. I will give my vote to PAP if they the ministers and senior officials lower their pay further by another 40% in 2009 and hold it till 2011.

They cannot or else illegal corruptions will kick in, for now it is still legal, so its OK!

After Jan 22, 2009, when I am no longer President, can I join your parliament? I hear your members of parliament make about twice what I make.
I will have less responsibilities. I won’t have to send any young men to war. I won’t have to deal with 100 times more people than you have. And yet, I can still make more money.
Make me a citizen. Sign me to your parliament… please… pretty please…

Oh and yes, if you allow me into your parliament, I can be in there till I die, right?
I am so glad you don’t have term limitations in your government. That would be a great source of retirement income for me, since the US didn’t pay me quite that well.
Can I also just allow my daughters to replace me when I die? Or when I am too old to continue in your parliament? I hear it’s been done before.
I like your country. I love your country.

Oh, but I can’t say negative things about the government, huh? Oh well, I guess with that kind of income, I can live with it. I will just shut up and collect my retirement.

Quick, where do I sign to become a citizen?

I think CPF will be cut in the next budget, at least 4%-5%. I am really worried for those struggling to make payments on their expensive mortgages. Cutting cpf helps to keep companies running costs lower, but create a host of other problems for the poor and tightly squeezed middle class. I think employer and employee CPF contribution should be reduced at the same time. Reduced GST will be very positive but dun think money faced gahmen will do that.

Reduce GST? No way.
We got to feed da very talented millionaires you know.

2 years time they pay hike is it?

My friend jokingly told me,
in 2 years time his boss promise him pay hike.
he said he is the sole proprietor of his own company and he also is cum the employee.

I could only envy.

44) Mr Tan Kin Lian has made a very interesting proposal. Ot pegs ministar’s pay to 10 x national average family income. This annual pay of 10 X 12 X $6,280 = $753,600 per year should attract a ready pool of local talents to take up the challenge to manage our state affair for the public good.

Furthermore, ministars enjoy state pensions at a level tied to their final income when they relinquish their posts for the whole of their lives after retirement. The loss of this guaranteed pension benefit alone could be a big deterrent against corruption.

George Bush of 63) and 64)

Dear George,

I’m so sorry to disappoint you. You see, in SIngapore, we will import all kinds of Foreign Talents for all kinds of trade except the oldest profession – prostitution, oops, I mean politicians.

We are an open economy, we accept foreign IT professionals, foreign bankers and financial experts (plenty in GIC & Temasek), foreign construction labour, foreign maids, foreign cleaners to make our old Singaporeans jobless and of course, foreign prostitutes.

No worries though. You can stay in USA and still make some. With Barack Obama taking your POTUS post, you can be the Senior President.

Oh, don’t forget your Dad.

He will be the President Mentor of the USA.

If you do not know how to go about it, give Harry a call.

Cheers,

feedmetothefish

Their pay are already sky high, a reduction of 15-19% is nothing to them. A 25% cut for the top earners would be more realistic. Nevertheless it is a good start.

salary can go up, stay the same, or go down. Often pay decreases below the initial point, when the company/economy is not doing well.

When the economy is doing well, the minister pay increases. When the economy is not doing well as in, being in a recession, the minister pay go back to the 2007th level. If this recession persists beyond 1 year, would the minister’s pay go back to the 2006th level?

When that happens, then we will know if the mechanism is really working..

2007 our GDP is around 7-8% growth. Now 2008 GDP growth is around 2.5% and next year a big NEGATIVE hanging over us.

When the gahmen cut the salary back to 2007 level is it good enough? What level is considered fair? I think they should return their pay structure back to 2004. in 2003-4 we had a recession brought forth by SARS. We are going to have a mother of all recession since depression mentioned by economists worldwide. I think the pay structure of all top civil servants and ministers must go back to the 2004 level. This is to show the people that you elites understand and share the woes of singaporeans. Easy money all these years have breed alot of out of touch, stupid, arrogant and incompetent ministers and top civil servants. In this year alone, we all have witnessed how incompetent our gahmen really is. From MSK escaped from high security prison, very very bad investments, poor control of MAS allowing toxic products to be sold to people, show of ZERO leadership,Town council lack of financial controls, inflation brought higher by raising fares, electricity tariffs, food costs and expensive HDB flats some costing $700K for a 5 room. I really cannot think of a reason why they are still getting millions of taxpayer monies?

What the incompetent leaders can do sincerely:

The president(prata man) and all ministers should be entitled a 50% pay cut. The people insists. Not happy quit lah, get a MNC job since u are a top talent from A team.

Top civil servant from the highest should get 40% pay cut and each leve below will have a reducing cut of 5%. Of course, their performance are generally poor, not happy quit lah. Sure a lot of high paid jobs around since u guys are also talents.

63) George Bush on November 26th, 2008 6.39 pm After Jan 22, 2009, when I am no longer President, can I join your parliament? I hear your members of parliament make about twice what I make.

If I am elected as president of singapore, there are only 3 main things I will and must immediately do. 1) withdraw at least 50% of total foreign investments 2) return all the cpf monies back to all citizens 55 years and older, and 3) all ministers’ salaries cut down by 50%, at least.
These 3 things will definately keep me in office for at least another 3 terms, easily. No need to bullshit, no need so many ministers to give all kind of excuses and lame talks, no need to give threatening words, no need to lie, just speak the truth to the people and the rest will just work out fine.

aiyoyo

from nov24 CNA :

“Up to 19% pay cut for top civil servants; lower year-end bonus”

not sure who are the civil servants cut pay, by how much %?

aiyoyo

They are cutting blah blah pay for themselves (govt), not for you!

This is a little like donating lots of money after you’ve killed a few people.