Bravo Mr Tan! May all the affected investors continue to fight for justice. Our government and MAS must now review the situation objectively with an open mind and please with ‘Wide Open Eyes’….Singaporeans are suffering.

I simply cannot believe how indifferent this PAP government is. During election, they are at your beck and call. Now, after getting your votes, you’re on your own. Well done Mr Tan, you have put MM, PM, SM all to shame. You have tore their off their mask showing their true colors.

good job

Although I am not an affected investor, I empathize with the plight of the aggrieved investors and follow the development of the ongoing debacle quite closely.

I am totally disappointed with the government’s inaction and slow reaction in this matter. The government is given ample opportunity to take a neutral stand and to make good of a bad situation.

Given the background, It is only right to call for an inquiry to give all parties, including the FIs, a fair hearing. There is no merit in the excuse that such an inquiry will hurt Singapore’s reputation as a financial hub. Indeed, Singapore’s reputation is hurt by the indecision and failure to hold such an inquiry.

A mandate to govern stems from the duty to represent the People. Should the government forget this simple relation, it risks losing the confidence of a large segment of the population.

Mr Tan is more than Obama in his own ways – Obama speaks in USA democracy environment whereas Mr Tan operates in the Singapore environment.

Note the difference!

The Singapore government is rumoured to be garnering for an early election. Is that so? I thought this is a suicidal and they are to lose votes.

hongjun

hongjun (#6),

There is seriously nothing to worry about the demise of PAP. If any, PAP is a barrier to a better Singapore. The PAP does not represent the future or hope, but an antique that has outlived its usefulness.

Stand Up for Singapore!

7) smallvice585 on November 15th, 2008 9.21 pm hongjun (#6),

There is seriously nothing to worry about the demise of PAP. If any, PAP is a barrier to a better Singapore. The PAP does not represent the future or hope, but an antique that has outlived its usefulness.

Yes, they are nothing more than just empty vessels, unlike the early days where the citizens look up to them to lead but now they can’t even do anything right for the people instead making them suffer for their costly yet continual mistakes one after another . . . the people has already lost all their faith with this team.

I like to maintain an open mind.
I believe either way is possible – earlier election or later election.
To me I think it depends on their confidence level that may look like the stock market chart (not the stock market but like it). If its expected that their Confidence level will be lower in 2 years time or so, then earlier election is good idea. If Confidence level is expected to be higher in 2 years time or so, then later election is good idea. I am a layman, brudder. I don’t know much. Just my 0.1 cent.

Yes, earlier or later, it does not make any difference to the people now. The only way is to gain back the respect of its citizens and not the other way round. The logic is actually very simple, just reverse back all the things that is now causing the suffering of its citizens, show the people you really care, no wayang, no lies, no more of that arrogance nature and stop making a fool of yourself to the people.

PAP is still a political force to be reckoned with. I browsed through certain points that some of you made and found a number not just incredulous, but also nonsensical and ridiculous.

One of you said that PAP has outlived it’s usefulness and called the party a barrier in Singapore’s future prosperity. How so may I ask? You called for it’s destruction. May I then remind you that such a call is not only disastrous, but will also lead to Singapore walking a path of no return? Other then the PAP, which other party has the politcal talents to rule this country and ensure our survival? Given Singapore’s small population, the only sane thing we can do is try our very best to reform the only party that has won the elections and ruled the country since independence.

Whether PAP holds early or late elections is besides the point. If they hold early elections, it’ll be a good gauge on how much Singaporeans support the government’s policies and solutions to this financial crisis.

With every crisis, heroes arise. Tan KL is definitely NOT one of them. Do none of you remember what he did when he was CEO of NTUC Income? I do disagree with his handling of this issue. He should know very well that he is impeding the investigation of the monetary authorities.

Singapore’s future is at stake. We cannot have pretenders in this country. I’ve been arguing with one in YPAP and he seems to not realise that. We either support the incumbent government fully and cooperate or simply vote in a new government, which is impossible currently, seeing the plight of the opposition parties who lack talents in their recruitment. herefore, this results in the forme being our only choice of hope.The PAP’s handling of this issue will determine the party’s as well as the country’s future.

Just to let you people know, I am no government supporter or government opposer. But I believe in fairness and the ability to reason. Right now, with so much at stake, we cannot let our emotions take over us. We must unite and work towards a better tomorrow.

Elfred in YPAP stated that he’d rather allow the problems in Singapore to surface and define themselves before stepping in to solve them. I totally disagree with these kind of actions. He’s obviously another Tan KL. I know perfectly well that he intends to earn political glory in solving a crisis after it surfaced rather then preventing it from happening in the first. place.

Singapore is ruined with such characters in the country. Singapore, so small an island, so small a population, must be united and work as a team. We cannot allow our petty differences to divide us. Regardless of status, wealth, or class, we rise and fall as a nation. Who’s ever heard of a fish surviving without water?

I sense hope in this crisis. We need strong and inspiring and able leadership. This is our way to success. We are one people, one nation.

panter92

If I were in PAP’s shoes, I will not entertain TKL’s petitions and antics. If petition doesn’t work, will they burn banners next?

This is not the way, the Government works. If you set a precedent, then later on something different crops up and someone else use this method, then Government will be very busy.

TKL is creating civil commotion. I am not surprised that he is testing PAP’s patience.

I am not sure that TKL’s motives are, given he has 30 years of past records for people to know what a person he was. The “smiling tiger” (a reference on him that he acknowledged) cannot change stripes so suddenly. We will probably know in due course after this fiasco is resolved … maybe there is a plan to sell a book to earn royalties or sell some insurance/investment to fund his retirement money, I dunno … but certainly this is good publicity and scoring some populist points.

The right approach to resolve this issue has already given by Government. Just follow and Government will take care of it.

#11 … I know perfectly well that he intends to earn political glory in solving a crisis after it surfaced rather then preventing it from happening in the first. place.

Mr. Tan K L has not declared that he is entering politics.
Even if he decides to, so what?
As a Singapore citizen, he has every right to do so.

Please do not label other people good deeds as motive to earn political points.
Potential PAP candidates also help around a constitutuency guided by a seasoned PAP MP as mentor. Isn’t it more obvious?

More than a year ago, Mr. Tan K L had already warned investors that structure deposits are very dangerous. Unfortunately, he did not has the authority to ban it.

By the way, did our heavy weight ministers manage to prevent the lehman saga from happening in the first place although they have every power to do so?

Dear individual investors,

As soon as you recover your investments, do remember to put your money in low-risk, no/low-management-fee investments. You wouldn’t worry about getting a high-return from those investments, if you really fit the profile of a conservative investor, as long as you do get some return. Get the best money-market and index funds available, rated by a number of diverse and trusted accreditating/ risk-assessment bodies.

MAS had plenty of opportunity to prevent a debacle with all the laws in place. Their misjudgement and hands off led to misconducts by the FIs and the representatives.
MAS failed to enforce the laws because enforcing would appear over regulation. But this sent the wrong message to the FIs and the salespeople that they had a free rein to fleece and squeeze whatever they could from consumers.Whether it was in the banks or the insurance companies the culture was the same and I am sure it still is.
The RMs in the banks stooped to anything to close whatever, men,women ,animals so long these customers had the money. At the insurance fronts , insurance agents were also selling toxic products to the consumers to enrich themselves disregarding the consumers’ interest.
Oh yes, MAS did say that it was and is NOT their business to judge the merits of the products. Did they say the same for the product salesmen, that the RMs and insurance agents could employ any means to make the consumers buy?
Isn’t it that the laws are useless when they are not enforced?
3 factors contributed to the debacle. 1. the products 2. the salespeople 3. MAS
To solve this problem from happening in the future.
Commonsense will tell to deal with the causes.
1. Check and vet the products before releasing to the market.
2. ban product pushing or selling and remove product advice option from the fact finding form. Everyone, the RMs and the insurance agents MUST conduct a need analysis before recommendation o f the product.Not only that , IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY of the RMs and insurance agents to see that the recommendation is of REASONABLE BASIS.They are liable for the outcome, good or bad.
3. MAS MUST enforce the above by frequent checks and audits on the the salespeople and the FIs. MAS MUST NOT trust the FIs to do all these.
I believe this is NOT OVER REGULATION .It must be done for the sake of protecting the consumers. MAS must remember the FIs and their reps can only exist by serving the interest of the consumers.Consumers’ interest is FIRST.

Kin Lian’s relentless effort in wanting to help affected investors is laudable without a doubt. I too have personally called him up to share with him concerns and that he may be targeted by others as acting upon personal interest (which I know is not true). The same is not to be said to one of the Hong Kong legislative member who is also a lawyer by professional and charge a fee in helping people who are affected to lobby for support from fellow legislative members to invoke a rule that allows them to directly investigate all transactions that took place in all involved banks regarding this investment issue. It is after his cover was blow that he decided to withdraw his participation of the investigation citing a conflict of interest.

Like many others, I have nothing to do with this minibonds debacle but have been following closely the development. I contemplated whether to continue to pen comment with regard to this issue and to share what I have heard and read from the development in Hong Kong. May be these information may have already become public domain knowledge but out of concern as a fellow Singaporean for those affected, I decided to share it from my perspective.

It is true that MAS was slow in reacting (that is a fact) and that Hong Kong Legco (legislative Council) had invoked a rule that was vested in all law makers to investigate right to the details of Bank’s transaction (that some Hong Kong citizens had expressed that it may be seen as intrusion of personal data as well as intervention of Banking industry operation). Now it has been supported through voting and the litigation process is due to commence in Hong Kong soon. Many institutional experts had predicted that they expect the litigation process will go on for a prolong period (as it is believe that involved Banks are expected to mount a concerted effort to safe guard their interest) that many agree that it may affect any expedition of any out-of court settlement (if not entirely halted) between banks and affected investors. There are indeed some investors had settled out of court with some banks and do get back their investment (although the amount was not disclosed). At the end of the day, it could turn out to be a situation that there are no eventual winners.

The Hong Kong government officials (including Donald Tsang) had voiced their concerns whether this will actually hurt the investors and threaten Hong Kong’s reputation as Asia Financial Hub that will have far more severed repercussion. There is some truth to it if a nation prides itself as a strong advocate of free market economy. No one knows at moment and even legislative members who voted to support this litigation process are out in force to ensure that they will exercise extreme caution when handling this case. All eyes are now trained to see how this debacle will evolve. I believe MAS or the Singapore government is taking a leaf from Hong Kong and decided to apply the wait and see strategy.

Albeit it is quite apparent that Banks are applying the stalling tactics in an attempt to drain the energy of angry investors, I think an effort to arrange direct negotiation rather than collective class action suit may turn out to be more beneficial to affected investors (albeit, it will be hard press that investors are able to get full refund of their lost invested sum). It is indeed a very sticky situation. I think if it is a genuine case of mislead investment with proven hard facts, the authority indeed should or can make an attempt to assist to look into it on a case basis (if a similar situation like Hong Kong is to be avoided) rather than taking an entire hands off approach (when the dust settled and proven that it does no good to all parties involved). This is just my honest thought.

Yes many have lost faith but the incredible thing is that they do not care.

They do not bother about the consumers and all they care is the economy.
One even said that helping businesses will be their top priority in next year’s budget.

Okay so business can hire cheaper wage foreign worker, retrench Sgreans, etc etc to keep their business going…yes yes yes..if you have spare cash…you must spend to help boost the economy or else we’ll be in deeper recession..you are always right, we are always wrong.

I think they wanna sweep this incident under carpet but i hope the investors can press on for their rights. Don’t lose heart and don’t let the banks eat you. Big fish eat medium fish, medium fish eat small fish and the cycle goes on. For some, do pray for divine’s help because this state is so oppressed and controlled that we really need God’s intervention.

The bank is no longer a safe place to deposit your savings. When you have a tidy sum there, bank officers telephone you, visit you and tell you not to leave it in fixed deposit as the interest earned is so miniscule. They tempt you to put your savings in safe investments – minibonds, hi notes, pinnacle notes etc. that give you a bit more interest. Now we see the disaster. The government and MAS must be held responsible for they are the ones who allow the sale of such safe investments. It is a shame that they should adopt the usual evasive tactic when confronted.

Like other affected countries, the current global financial crises is not the fault of the govt per se. Good time everyone damn happy and 4get about the govt, bad time everyone starts finger pointing esp at the govt. Sigh! chern hu pai zhou

Panter and PAP Annonymous

I believe you both are missing the point, and what it means to be active citizens in a democracy… even if this country isn’t too democratic to begin with. Stop waiting for the government with its ’strong and able’ leadership to solve all our problems. The government isn’t necessarily the solution but the problem.

Ultimately, the minibomb fiasco brought to surface what MANY had felt all along, that the economic policies of the country, favoring privitizations and deregulation and corporations over the citizens.

Re: 20) Chobolang

Good time, not everyone happy. Lots of Singaporeans are sick and tired of the arrogance of the government all the time!

Sigh . . . It’s not “Chernhu pai chu” [difficult to be the government] . . . it may be “Chenghu chobolang” [government do fcuk all] and “Chiak Leow Bee” [eating rice for nothing (useless)]. Its so sad that most of the time, all they do is “Chui kong lumpar song!” [mouth talks, testicles feels good]

For the benefit of those who are not familair with Hokien, translation is is in parenthesis [. . .]

Is Tan Kin Lian doing it altruistically or for his own benefit? Only he and God knows. We won’t know until we know!

If I were one of the investor, I’d be grateful for his support.

Let’s hope that they (those he petitioned to) won’t put him down.

They can if they want to.

feedmetothefish

To the PAP election strategy, 10,000 votes are dispensable (assuming all the 10,000 investors were PAP voters )

Divide 10,000 voters by 82 PAP wards, you average less than 122 votes per ward, an insignificant number really.

To have some meaningful strength, the investors must magnify their number many many times. You can do so by informing as many people as possible that you are victims of this lehman scam. Don’t be shy. Some may support you, some may scorned you, take it as an opportunity to know who are your good relatives & real friends.

Situation will be different if the number is more than 5000 per ward.
Then hope of solid action by the government may materialised

(I supported the PAP w/o second thought since eligible for voting)

I remember elites bragging last time about how they prevent BCCI from operating in Singapore and we were not affected.

So how come they were unable to prevent these toxic products from being sold here now? Maybe they should start bragging about how good they are at sweeping things under carpet nowadays.

23) minibombed on November 16th, 2008 1.31 am
To the PAP election strategy, 10,000 votes are dispensable (assuming all the 10,000 investors were PAP voters )

no exactly right, 10,000 investors x 4 times average family members = 40,000 votes, of course you have to include their spouses and children

so what % in total do you PAP vote will drop?

#25) Hi, tiredsingaporean. Maybe I did not make myself sufficiently clear.

The 40,000 votes (investors + family) you mentioned is not enough. You have to spread it to all the consitutuencies.
There are at least 30,000 voters in a single ward.
To have a swing of just 16% you need the support of at least 5000 voters per ward. For 82 PAP wards you need 82 x 5000 = 410,000 votes.
BTW, a 16% swing is just 16% swing. It don’t not guarantee a seat won by the opposition.
That’s why I said the investors need to magnify their numbers many many times to make the government sit up. Hence supporters or sympathizers are badly needed for this saga.

To 12) panter92

1) There are talents outside of PAP. They r just busy pointing out the bad things and being sued for it. Others r busy pointing out the same things and being ignored. I’m not entirely supporting a Destruction of PAP which is unlikely to happen anyway, but rather more seats for Opposition who may assist in questioning issues, etc.

2) Y is Mr Tan impending the investigations when it seems tat there isn’t any in in the first place? I thought wat Mr Tan is fighting for is for MAS to investigation. If MAS still hands off then they may consider the class suit.

3) Pretenders? Isn’t there already many? For eg: CPF is great? It’s life, let’s move on? Go in with Eyes Open? Gov cannot decide for u? Etc, etc?

4) I totally agree with u tat we shouldn’t let crisis arise before solving them to earn the glory. But i do not understand y u atk Mr Tan again for this when it was others who let the crisis arise. Maybe u can clarify?

To 13) PAP Anonymous

1) They r indeed busy which is y they asked investors to approach banks themselves.

2) If there was no commotion then i guess the issue would ve been resolved already indeed. By sending the rejection letter to all the investors (Which they did). Easy.

Daniel Ling (#27),

PAP MP Liang Eng Wah is also DBS’s Managing Director for Global Markets. In fact, there are a total of 7 PAP MPs who worked or still works in the financial service sector. Did parliament do anything to minimise the conflict of interest arising in parliamentary session? I think the answer is pretty clear.

#17

I make a very wild speculation that the authorities will set up shop in the respective banks if there is to be an investigation into the structured products ‘fiasco’, and invite those who have failed in initial negotiations with the banks to resolve matters, to come forward. This nonetheless is going to be a real strain on legal and investigative resources, so the banks will probably find themselves tasked with the greater part of resolving the matter. If investigations are to take place eventually I guess those who had made the most losses, after those who have resolved matters with the respective banks, would be the first attended to. Next would be the most vocal of investors who made losses, who claim vehemently that they were lied to, deceived and so on by their financial or bank relationship manager. However, I should point out that facts and evidence would be difficult to gather in cases of “mis-selling” or misrepresentation— I mean, just how are complainants, or for the matter investigators, going to retrieve hard evidence of misrepresentation? Not that they should, but no one carries a tape recorder or video camera to an appointment with a relationship manager. So it’s the complainant’s word against the defendant’s. Sometimes I think nothing short of a confession by the defendant would do, or a long, thorough and drawn-out case involving the respective bank, investigative authority and the courts. I say in the end it is those most vocal about the issue, at the right places, in the right manner, who will manage to recover anything at all. By now, the smartest and most aggrieved investors would have lodged reports with the central bank.

May I then remind you that such a call is not only disastrous, but will also lead to Singapore walking a path of no return? Other then the PAP, which other party has the politcal talents to rule this country and ensure our survival? Given Singapore’s small population, the only sane thing we can do is try our very best to reform the only party that has won the elections and ruled the country since independence. – Panter92

PAP is a big political party, but whether it has political talents is debatable. It is darn obvious that the PAP leaders today are enjoying the fruits of the Old Guards’ success while they themselves have yet to contribute to anything. The only sane thing is to implore local talents to stand up for Singapore, and not be part of the problem – PAP itself.

My kudos to TKL again for bringing the protest to another level with the trash bag thingy – it was very innovative and creative and all within legal limit.

Definitely TKL is testing the limit of the authorities. There are several firsts here:

1. Regular co ordinated concerted effort by a large group of citizens protesting against the authorities led by a noble citizen (not from a political party). I am amazed at the silence of the opposition parties now. Are they gagged by the authorities? Very likely.

2. Rising up of a determined respectable non-bartisan leader among the citizenship firghting for the rights of innocent citizens. What CSJ has unsuccessfully tried to do all these years were accomplished by TKL during this period. CSJ could learn a thing or two from TKL here.

3. Apparent silence of the authorities on these regular protests – I must salute the govt for not intervening on these well co ordinated protests. They could have put a stop to these protests in the name of security interest though it is done legally at HLP. We have seen this happening before.

4. What one man can do – history has always shown that one man’s efforts can determine the fate of a country. Nelson Mandela in his drive for independence from the colonists was deemed a patriot for his efforts though he was jailed for over 20 years. Martin Luther King in his dream speech in 1965 started the revolution for black civil rights but of course he was gunned down in 1968.

5. Silence on the part of our authorities and MPs – I have always cast doubts on the civil apathy of our country’s MPs. They are merely there to stand up for election and then disappeared and then re appeared for the next election. They can take a leaf from MP Lee Bee Wah who acted for the resients in the Serangoon Gardens’ saga or Charles Chong who acted for the infamous White Elephant MRT station. What good is our MPs if they can’t represent or speak up for the residents? Are they gagged from doing something for our people who voted them in? This perhaps is the most disappointing outcome of the whole minibond episode. People are sacrificed for the larger good of the whole financial institution. We are also sacrificed for our jobs by FTs so that we are seen as cosmopolitan and a drive to increase the population at all cost. Time and again, the govt has shown that they will not think twice about putting country first before it’s people. Casinos, F1, FTs, Serangoon Garden, Minibond are very good examples. We are all to be sacrificed so the country can be seen as properous.

6. Changing the course of opposition politics – TKL’s entry has indeed change the path of opposition politics. We tend to see the opposition parties sending in candidates for election and they are largely anonymous – same as the PAP’s ones. If TKL now stands for the next GE as an independent candidate or even start his own party, do you need he will not get good support? He has garnered enough public support by showing that he cares for the people. If opposition candidates want to find support from the ground they have to work for it first.

Good work TKL – true son of Singapore!

Changing the course of opposition politics – TKL’s entry has indeed change the path of opposition politics. We tend to see the opposition parties sending in candidates for election and they are largely anonymous – same as the PAP’s ones. – Gilbert Goh (#31)

Tan Kin Lian is not a politician but an activist advocating MAS to do the right thing.

Hi Gilbert Goh (#31)

The trash bags were created by the group of investors who bought the DBS High Notes. They work independently from me. They have more resources and more dedictated members (who want to recover their hard earned savings).

If I knew of the effort, I would have asked for the trash bags to include the minibonds, pinnacle notes, jubilee notes and all types of credit linked notes.

Hi all,

A few people asked, “What is TKL’s motive? Does he have political motives? Why is he willing to test the limits?”

Many others said, “Mr. Tan, be careful. The government and authority will come after you.”

In my actions, I am guided by the following:

> be fair
> have courage to do what is right
> take care of the interest of others – those who are weak and need help
> have respect for the ordinary people

I am still asking for MAS to do the following:

> carry out an independent investigation
> encourage the financial insitutions to adopt guidelines on how to compensate the investors fairly
> set up an independent unit to help investors to lodge their complaints
> meet with representative groups of investors to find some possible solution
> communicate transparently – let those affected know what is going on

I also hope that the elected representatives of the people (MPs and ministers) should come forward and be active in helping the people. I invite them to come to speaker’s corner and talk to the investors.

I encourage the investors to meet the MPs at their weekly meet the people session.

I am 60 years old. I have enough enough money to retire comfortably. My financial needs are modest. I do not need to have “political motives” for selfish reasons. I do not need any personal credit. I do not wish to be called a “hero”.

But I am now convinced that the direction that our country is heading needs to be changed. How can this be done? I will write separately on this matter.

Silence on the part of our authorities and MPs – I have always cast doubts on the civil apathy of our country’s MPs. They are merely there to stand up for election and then disappeared and then re appeared for the next election. They can take a leaf from MP Lee Bee Wah who acted for the resients in the Serangoon Gardens’ saga or Charles Chong who acted for the infamous White Elephant MRT station. What good is our MPs if they can’t represent or speak up for the residents? – Gilbert Goh

Actually, this is what I expected of MPs, whether they are PAP or Loyal Opposition. I think the reason for this is that the chief whip system that ensured MPs to vote along party lines had also created in the environment that even MPs self-censor themselves. That’s the key reason of not executing their rightful civil duty. That’s why I say PAP has became a barrier to our future and an antique that outlived its usefulness. Unless PAP reforms itself, Singapore’s future is definitely tied to the growth of our Loyal Opposition.

For those who ask if I have political ambitions, my reply is posted in my blog
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/11/political-ambitions.html

My intent remains the same.

To TKL

I have read the interview you had with Today papaer and I think there will be at least 250,000 people who will support you to be President elect.

As the election is nearing, do consider running as opposition MP as the voice in PArliament is very one sided.

You have my support regardless and I will meet you up once I am back home!

why is tan kin lian an issue in this debacle? i think it is very unfair to dig someone’s cupboard or back garden for skeletons. for all you know, everyone has a storeroom full of skeletons.

the other point is that everyone has his strength and weaknesses. everyone makes mistakes in his process of growing up and becoming wiser. do not judge a man for a few mistakes or decisions that you cannot agree with him. for in every mistake that a man makes, the one whom you admire and think is flawless, could have made more than you know.

and why question his motive? you mean the saints and priests have no motives? why don’t you ask the saints and priests and gods instead?

in a crisis like this, when the victims are desperate and needing help, you can imagine how grateful and appreciative they are when someone steps in from the wilderness, it doesn’t concern him and he does not ask to be paid to do national service, to help them. he is doing it for FREE!

we need more selfless people to stand up and serve the people. but there will be people who slam or sneer at him for being stupid and working for free.

let’s be fair to tan kin lian

As the election is nearing, do consider running as opposition MP as the voice in PArliament is very one sided. – Gilbert Goh (#37)

We need to build up non-partisan civil society in Singapore first before Loyal Opposition becomes a sustainable political platform on its own. Be pro-Singapore. Think strategically before adopting a position.

Alright, I’ll take your word for it that you don’t have any political ambitions then. But if you so much ‘try’ to stand for MP-ship… If you truly wish to help the people recover their lost savings, then I wish you all the best.

Back to the rest. Some of you say that there are plenty of talents outside the PAP who get sued when they point things or matters out in public? Care you give me a few names? Don’t tell me Gopalan Nair or Chee Soon Juan. One is a foreigner and the other, a impulsive activist.

Another one of you stated that PAP may not have any political talents? Then care to tell me why were PAP candidates elected into parliament every GE? Yes, I agree partly that our new leaders or politicians in the PAP are enjoying the fruits of the Old Guard’s labour, but wouldn’t that mean you and I are too? We are reaping the harvest sowed by our ancestors. I will not say whether the leaders in PAP has done anything or not. It’s a very sensitive issue and I don’t want to shoot unnecessarily.

When the subprime crisis first struck US, few people expected that it would hit the world so fast. Even fewer expected that the feds will allow Lehman Bros to collapse.

When I attended the speech yesterday, the man after TKL compared Singapore to HK. He doesn’t appear to realise that Singapore and HK, while being rivals, have very different fundaments in both economic and political espects. Just because both cities are competing to be a financial hub, does this mean we are comparable? You might as well compare a lion to a cheetah. He forgot to take into account the time of HK’s independence which played a very important role in HK’s success and politics and economics. He forgot many things, and because those aunties and uncles there were too distracted by the lost of their savings, they did not think.

So how? Singapore is facing a new crisis much worse then faced ever before.

Alright, I’ll take your word for it that you don’t have any political ambitions then. But if you so much ‘try’ to stand for MP-ship… If you truly wish to help the people recover their lost savings, then I wish you all the best. – panter92

Your wording suggests that you view TKL as a troublemaker. However, I would like to ask you the following questions:
1. What qualities do you want to see in your MP?
2. If you are looking for demonstration of these qualities, what sort of evidence do you require?

Back to the rest. Some of you say that there are plenty of talents outside the PAP who get sued when they point things or matters out in public? Care you give me a few names? Don’t tell me Gopalan Nair or Chee Soon Juan. One is a foreigner and the other, a impulsive activist. – Panter92

Gopalan Nair started out as a Singaporean first. Until you speak to the man himself, I beg you do not cast Dr Chee in such negativity. You conveniently picked bad examples to justify your cause. I don’t see anyone from Young PAP taking up social causes, but we have a WP Youth Wing Member leading for public transport petition for tertiary students. If you look objectively, you will realise that politics and social issues always go hand in hand, because large scale social change always requires some kind of political manoeuvre.

Another one of you stated that PAP may not have any political talents? Then care to tell me why were PAP candidates elected into parliament every GE? – Panter92

Can you name me any new PAP MP who actually won a position in a contested single representative constituency?

Yes, I agree partly that our new leaders or politicians in the PAP are enjoying the fruits of the Old Guard’s labour, but wouldn’t that mean you and I are too? We are reaping the harvest sowed by our ancestors. – Panter92

The new leaders are still taking credit for the success of the Old Guards, yet I can name examples of their failed policies. Look at the failure of liberalisation of the public transport market. Look at the failure to launch Singapore as an global IT hub. Ventures into the life science and casino sectors have yet to indicate any results. We even lost some of our value-added electronics sector. Only the industrial ventures that were pursued by the Old Guards are still very much the economic engine of our country today.

He forgot to take into account the time of HK’s independence which played a very important role in HK’s success and politics and economics. He forgot many things, and because those aunties and uncles there were too distracted by the lost of their savings, they did not think. – Panter92

So Singapore’s politics should not take in account of citizens’ concerns? What did the aunties and uncles did not think? Please enlighten us.

So how? Singapore is facing a new crisis much worse then faced ever before. – Panter92

MAS inaction does not help in re-affirming consumer and investor trust at all. In some ways, MAS inaction has led to the demise of consumer and investor confidence, and is definitely an accomplice in facilitating the flourishing of systemic risk in the global financial markets.

40) panter92: “When the subprime crisis first struck US, few people expected that it would hit the world so fast. Even fewer expected that the feds will allow Lehman Bros to collapse.”

You are missing the point. The point is mis-selling by the distributors. Also the risks are not commensurate with the 5% reward. Investors become effectively insurers of the credit worthiness of FIs. Ask yourself, if the FIs go to a proper insurer, will the insurer charge a mere 5% as insurance premium. Is there any fraud on the part of the arranger of this minibond products (i.e. are they cheating the investors)? Why call the product as minibonds when the underlying instruments are nothing like a bond which common folks understand it to be? Is there any exobitant profit earned FIs and arrangers in selling these products?

In short, only the gov and authority have the power to investigate and establish facts? The FIs and arrangers of such products cannot be excused by a simple statement that no one can foresee the Lehman Brothers can be swept away by the financial tsunami prior to the current crisis>

Answer this :

Was the Regulatory supposed to have regulated the selling of the mini bonds and pinnaccles?

YES or NO .

Why need to improve the system ? Was it not good enough?

Answer if you could panter.

regards
Tiger in White. TIW.

Ok, I’ll go through your arguments one by one now. I’ll start with smallvice first.

Here goes..

Smallvice:
Your wording suggests that you view TKL as a troublemaker. However, I would like to ask you the following questions:
1. What qualities do you want to see in your MP?
2. If you are looking for demonstration of these qualities, what sort of evidence do you require?

panter:
I see nothing in most of our MPs. Some, like Lily Neo, are good examples of MPs who actually fight for the people, but others basically bring up issues that are far from the mind of most Singaporeans, like the 377A issue not long ago. When i’m in search of these qualities, I want to see the MPs fight for the people’s rights without being afraid of any backlash by higher authorities or his counter-parts. That’s the very essence that makes a leader, a leader. But we’ll see tomorrow won’t we, when parliament sits?

smallvice:
Gopalan Nair started out as a Singaporean first. Until you speak to the man himself, I beg you do not cast Dr Chee in such negativity. You conveniently picked bad examples to justify your cause. I don’t see anyone from Young PAP taking up social causes, but we have a WP Youth Wing Member leading for public transport petition for tertiary students. If you look objectively, you will realise that politics and social issues always go hand in hand, because large scale social change always requires some kind of political manoeuvre.

panter:
yes, I do realise that Bernerd Chen is petitioning for fairer transport fees and I appreciate that, but do you realise that he’s a polytechnic student as well? And these petitions are organised by he himself with little help from his party. It’s his own personal petition organised by himself. And I don’t think there are many polytechnic students in YPAP.

smallvice:
The new leaders are still taking credit for the success of the Old Guards, yet I can name examples of their failed policies. Look at the failure of liberalisation of the public transport market. Look at the failure to launch Singapore as an global IT hub. Ventures into the life science and casino sectors have yet to indicate any results. We even lost some of our value-added electronics sector. Only the industrial ventures that were pursued by the Old Guards are still very much the economic engine of our country today.

panter:
Look, when the government liberalised the public tranportation system, it’s to increase competition among the two primary transportation companies, SMRT and SBS. They assumed that competition would lead to lower fees, more efficient transport and quality service and to cut cost in the government sector. The casino sectors have yet to be built, so how would you know whether they will yield results or not? Las Vegas Sands is facing financial difficulties, yes I know, but the government will simply look for some other company to take over the project. After all, the project is too important to be abandoned. All that prime land. Let me ask, between sustaining development and development, which one do you think is easier? Think about it and you’ll realise why. That’s an important question our ministers up there must also think about and rethink their economic strategies.

smallvice:
Can you name me any new PAP MP who actually won a position in a contested single representative constituency?

panter:
For one thing, that is impossible. But I’m talking about the GRCs. PAP is viewed collectively as a party and not as an individual candidate for a single constituency. A mistake made by one member would spread like a virus to other members and there’ll be a domino effect.

smallvice:
So Singapore’s politics should not take in account of citizens’ concerns? What did the aunties and uncles did not think? Please enlighten us. MAS inaction does not help in re-affirming consumer and investor trust at all. In some ways, MAS inaction has led to the demise of consumer and investor confidence, and is definitely an accomplice in facilitating the flourishing of systemic risk in the global financial markets.

panter:
Of course the govt should take into account our complains and concerns. But both HK and SG have different approaches. While Hong Kongers just go to the streets, Singaporeans cannot(not allowed to).

The uncles and aunties were mainly Chinese educated.

In this saga, both the bank employees and the buyers (uncles and aunties) are to blame.
One side is blamed for not fully comprehending the products before purchasing them, in other words, they were aiming for easy cash.
The other side can be blamed for not ensuring that the consumers or investors fully understand the risks involved.
But this is business. If a salesman sells you a faulty product and you didn’t realise that, and neither did he and you bought it, only to find that it spoilt weeks after you’ve bought it, can he be blamed? The consumer is also partially to be balmed. You can so unfairly blame the seller for selling you a faulty product when you yourself never realised it in the first place.

Now to annonymous:
I think your question is partly answered in my last comment up there..

TIW:
As you know, Singapore’s financial market is very liberal. Ever since the 1997 crisis struck, our government took steps to liberalise and free the markets in order to attract more funds, banks, depositors, etc. Regulation was viewed as an impedement by many Western governments and thheir cities and countries became rich and wealthy with huge funds available. Singapore, in her quest to be a financial hub, naturally copied these strategies without knowing the implications.

I have already said it many times in YPAP that this system needs to be improved further and more regulation and laws must be implemented in order to not only solve this meltdown, but also prevent it from happening ever again.

See you all..

“He doesn’t appear to realise that Singapore and HK, while being rivals, have very different fundaments in both economic and political espects. Just because both cities are competing to be a financial hub, does this mean we are comparable?”

It is not unusual for comparatives to be with other more expensive countries when it comes to justifying certain planned price increases. So why the reason on the different fundaments in both economic and political espects was not also applied.

“Just because both cities are competing to be a financial hub, does this mean we are comparable?”

If nothing is comparable and everything is unique. Then why there is need to have standards and benchmarks where it is even more important if it is for the sake of good practices. We are not comparing about how worst other countries are – which is regressive.

When i’m in search of these qualities, I want to see the MPs fight for the people’s rights without being afraid of any backlash by higher authorities or his counter-parts. That’s the very essence that makes a leader, a leader. But we’ll see tomorrow won’t we, when parliament sits? – Panter92 (#44)

So why are you uncomfortable when a non-MP engages in such activities?

yes, I do realise that Bernerd Chen is petitioning for fairer transport fees and I appreciate that, but do you realise that he’s a polytechnic student as well? And these petitions are organised by he himself with little help from his party. It’s his own personal petition organised by himself. And I don’t think there are many polytechnic students in YPAP. – Panter92 (#44)

Please name me example of a YPAP member taking up social causes and championing it to the parliament on his own accord. Does such a person even exists?

For one thing, that is impossible. But I’m talking about the GRCs. PAP is viewed collectively as a party and not as an individual candidate for a single constituency. A mistake made by one member would spread like a virus to other members and there’ll be a domino effect. – Panter92 (#44)

There is no conclusive evidence that every PAP MP from a GRC is capable of winning votes on his own merit. Also, there is also evidence of PAP MP taking bribes. He was Teh Cheang Wan, PAP MP for Geyland West from 1979 to 1984, and also Minister for National Development. He was investigated for corruption by the Corrupt Practices Investigation Bureau for accepting two bribes of $500,000 each in 1981 and 1982. He committed suicide before being charged for the offences, on December 14. In his suicide note, Teh wrote:

“I have been feeling very sad and depressed for the last two weeks. I feel responsible for the occurrence of this unfortunate incident and I feel I should accept full responsibility. As an honourable oriental gentleman I feel it is only right that I should pay the highest penalty for my mistake”

PAP does not have corrupt-free record at all.

If anyone wans to look up Teh Cheang Wan, please refer to:

(1987) Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Investigations Concerning the Late Mr Teh Cheang Wan. Singapore: Singapore National Printers.

http://app.cpib.gov.sg/newcpib/user/default.aspx?pgID=237

Sincerely, i’m only a simple guy living in SG. This discussion has already went to the level tat is beyond me. But as a simple guy, sincerely, i feel tat the Gov which = to the Ruling Party which is currently PAP running this Nation is not entirely doing things wrongly.

I mean, credit has to be given where it’s due. We ve clean places. We ve transport which runs. We ve clean water, We ve electricity. And many many more.

But at the same time, Cost is running high slowly but surely. For all the good things, there’s also bad things involved.

Clean Places due to Us paying S&C which was invested without our knowledge and lost and the reply is tat it’s a small amt. Our Money Lost.

Transport which runs but Prices keep going up even though Service never really improve. Now more seats taken out so as to pack more humans to improve No of Humans per Cubic Sq which will allow them to boast better efficiency. After which inc price again?

Transport which runs and the On Time is base on wat time it leaves and not wat time it reaches. For trains not a big issue but is a issue for Buses. Although Road Jams is not Bus fault, but remember y there’s so much Cars? Who Allow it?

Water, Electricity. Last i heard Electricity is going up. During a Down Turn. Nice. And sincerely these infrastructures are already in place. Maintainence Plans r already in place thus these will go on.

So yes, it’s good and bad at the same time. Thus wat i feel i wan is more Checks And Balance. Just tat. The person arguing against bad policy, i sincerely do not really care whether his hidden agenda is good or bad. But if it’s a bad policy, and he argues against it at his own risk. At the risk or being oust from his post, he would sincerely ve my vote.

Without Checks and Balance, we will just carry on being screwed over and over. We can continue to debate day and nights months yrs on this forum and nothing will change. So i hope tat for the next election we can all Vote With Our Eyes Open.

I mean, credit has to be given where it’s due. We ve clean places. We ve transport which runs. We ve clean water, We ve electricity. And many many more. – Daniel Ling (#48)

Yes. I agree. I give credit when the PAP government exceeds expectation and not when it is merely doing its job. We have clean water, we have electricity. We have transport. These are examples of the PAP government doing its job. These are not examples of the PAP government exceeding expectations.

To 49) smallvice585

Thanks for expressing it in a way tat i wan to but can’t achieve. =D
I think ur phrasing is exactly how i wanted to say it.

There are several conclusions on why our beloved country ends up the way it is today:

1. No check and balances – history has always showed that a country being monopolised by one man or group will end up to the detriment of the country. Think Hitler, Amin and Deng Xiao Peng and you will know what I mean. Check and balances can be done outside of Parliament e.g rising up of interest groups such as the minibond protest, etc.

2. A politically apathetic population – when a country left everything to the govt this is what will happen. We over trust the authorities and became a country that has no more loyalty and ambition. How many of us are nationalistic to the point of dying for our country when there is a war? Many I fear may fled at the small sign of trouble. We ought to go back to loving of country more not so much to create trouble to our govt but to be more involved in how it is governed. The current state left much to be desired.

3. Materialism – we are too materialistic in our approach and life’s philosophy. We depend on our govt to deliver economically instead of rightfully and ethically. We allow in a casino without even a whimper of protest as our children and children children will suffer the adverse influence because of our apathy. We vote for our govt because they have promise goodies and upgrading for our constituency instead of what is rightful and good for us. We have become materialistic for our own good. The govt knows it and use it to their advantage. Vote for me and I will upgrade your ward if not your flat valuation will drop. Vote is tied to material gains.

4. Fear- we operate and live under a climate of fear originating from our forefathers. We came out of Malaysia and had nothing. Now we have everything. Do we want to go back to having nothing again? So vote for the ruling party who has given us propserity and stability. This is so wrong and many elderly voters still believe in this philosophy.

5. Lack of brave souls willing to stand up – there is a lack of die-hard souls who are willing to stand up and be counted. Besides radical CSJ we hardly have anyone daring enough to voice out in a logical and firm manner. I am glad TKL has stood up and I hope this will allow more others to come out and
speak out in unison.

Our country needs changes and badly. My heart aches whenever I think of my beloved country. Though I am in Sydney my heart is very much at home. Home is where the heart is!

47) smallvice585 on November 16th, 2008 1.50 pm If anyone wans to look up Teh Cheang Wan, please refer to:

(1987) Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Investigations Concerning the Late Mr Teh Cheang Wan. Singapore: Singapore National Printers.

http://app.cpib.gov.sg/newcpib/user/default.aspx?pgID=237

The above happened but what can we do, its already happened, what can we do, he is gone, so no more, finished, he is not one of us anymore, so cannot affect our party.

But as for the mini bond saga, what is actually happening behind, its not about the compensating of the money to the victims, they have all the monies to pay 10 or maybe 100 times more than what is lost by these victims, if they start to pay, it means that they admited their wrong doings and someone have to be responsible whom happens to be someone closed to who we all know, and they just can’t afford this to take place due to the coming GE. Just like the mas selamat case, these 2 persons can cause very bad effect on their party when the time comes GE. Get that?

To 51) Gilbert Goh Keow Wah

Hi Gibert, nicely done. Very good consolidation of the information =D.

Hi Panter,

I think you haven’t answered smallvice’s remarks about you calling Dr Chee in a negative light. Of course everyone is entitled to his or her opinion, but dun you think it’s better that you read more about the man from sources other than MSM so you can make a more informed opinion?

Dear Netizens,

I am much saddened by the unfair comments and sometime personal attacks of some netizens on Mr Tan Kin Lian. In the past I have negotiated with Mr Tan in business and he did came across as a tough guy representing the interests of NTUC Income.
In what Mr Tan is doing presently (and it is not easy) – and even though the aggrieved investors is relatively a small number, he is providing real help and mind you, he is not paid. His action may not be appreciated by MAS but his efforts have the effect of nailing the conscience of all the corporate umbrellas under which the financial institutions’ relationship managers, “sales people”, etc hide under. In legal terms of the black and white fine print, the value of all the invested structured products can be deemed as worthless now……..
Mr Tan’s action, and here I would also like to ask if any other netizen would voluntarily get into his shoes, is taking corporate social responsibilty to task – he is indirectly buying time for any adverse quick announcement on the mini-bonds,etc, One like that of Morgan Stanley (on the Pinnacles’ notes) has decided that the S$ 26 million invested has gone to dust. People have the right to ask questions and seek re-dress on where there money have gone ? Where are the people who sold the products ? What did they promise ? What are they saying now? etc
The Government and the MAS will try but their efforts will never match the passion
of a people’s class action, and here you do need a real leader and one with experience in corporate financial matters to see that justice is done no matter the fine print, and the Singapore court must ensure that justice is seen to be done.
Thank you Mr Tan Kin Lian for stepping up.

RE: Quo Vadis

To each his own. There always people who support the actions of Mr. Tan and those who choose to have a differing opinion. In “forcing” people who accept what you think, you are no different from a political party that we all know.

I for one think that, despite his effort, Mr. Tan, is causing more nuisance and complicate the resolution of the matter. Don’t you realise by now, there are a lot of noise and little action? And this is just my personal opinion and I don’t expect you or anyone else to agree with me. Feel free to disagree – I may not say what you want me to say but at least I speak my mind.

To 56) Onlooker

Hi, I totally, sincerely extremely agree with u tat Mr Tan is a Nuisance. Basically his a Nuisance to the Authorties. Since if there wasn’t any collective action on the part of the investers, likely the Standard Rejection Letter tat was sent to most investors would ve end the case.

Then with the famous quotes of

U walk in with Eyes Open
The Gov cannot Decide for u

And the long time no heard

Tat’s Life~~~

And then it would be case close already. Thus Mr Tan… tsk tsk…

But then again, i support wat Mr Tan is doing. =D There is action actually, his action is to try and move MAS to action. Sincerely, 1 person alone will be unable to slap the FIs awake nor is 1 person alone able to command a full spectrum of independent investigators to ensure a clean investigation. Thus Mr Tan is basically trying his best, to gather enough evidence, etc from the investors to try and convince MAS to move.

Who says there’s no action? =X
Did u see all the trash bags on Sat? Loads of Action + pple assisting to clear up the mess.

57) Daniel Ling

Well said.

I will take some action though. If these sessions going to be there for the next two months, I can do a part-time job of selling foldable chairs, mini-fans, umbrellas, newspapers, food and drinks, ice-cream to the attendees and make a quick buck for my next investment. If I can earn $4~$5 from each of the 400 ~ 500 attendees over the 2 hours, it’s good money!

I for one think that, despite his effort, Mr. Tan, is causing more nuisance and complicate the resolution of the matter. Don’t you realise by now, there are a lot of noise and little action? – Onlooker (#56)

And I thought MAS is being a nuisance to the Singapore’s livelihood as a financial hub.

(1987) Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Investigations Concerning the Late Mr Teh Cheang Wan. Singapore: Singapore National Printers.

The above happened but what can we do, its already happened, what can we do, he is gone, so no more, finished, he is not one of us anymore, so cannot affect our party. – tiredsingaporean (#52)

This highlights the blind faith people put to the PAP brand. Someone commented on TOC that he will vote for any PAP candidate, claiming that PAP has a leadership scheme to groom PAP members into potential MPs and future ministers, believing only the very best will made it to MP and Ministerial level. We have an example of PAP’s very best commiting suicide over corruption.

If I had a chance to vote… well isn’t that disingeneous of the walkovers..

Chris

I find that voting is just one small part of the whole political game. Of course, one wants to use one’s vote to decide the fate on which candidate or party he wants to rule the land.

In politically apathetic Singapore, we need a complete rewiring on how we think politically. We often relate politics to candidates going to the polls. We have never thought of being more open to political discussion, how we are governed or how policies are created into law. Can we do something useful for our country? Politics is actually doing stuff that allow us to love our country more.

How many of us have go to the PAP forums for discussion? They are useful platforms to be plugged into our political bloodstream. Do we read and write on political stuff? It does not mean that we will need to join a political party to be politically in tune.

Joinging such discussion blog like TOC is already a big step in ebing politically involved as we all talk and discuss about issues that matter. Politics is really not just for the politicians it is for all who love their country too much.

“I mean, credit has to be given where it’s due. We ve clean places. We ve transport which runs. We ve clean water, We ve electricity. And many many more.” – Daniel Ling (#48)

When we eat hawker food at $3 a bowl, our expectation of the quality of the food is different from fine dining food at $300 a person.

Hence, if our politicians and civil servants are paid top dollar for their services, our expectation must necessarily be high. Good service, clean cutlery and hygenic food in a fine dining restaurant is a given. No undue credit should be given here.

In reply to: 13) PAP Anonymous on November 15th, 2008 11.25 pm
I think you are right. We need to increase our already out of the world salaries of our ministers to help them be more effective to shut Mr Tan KL for trying to help the needy. LOL

C’mon. Mr Tan is doing something which he does not need to do in order to help the needy. We should refrain from hitting him with personal attacks on things no one can prove he has done.

Just take a read at this and show how honourable the Belgium Govt is. They do know what is right and wrong, and accountable to their “honest mistake” by resignation.

Belgium Govt RESIGNED after being accused by HIGH COURT of intefering with court case
http://sgfrag.net/2008/12/20/belgium-govt-resigned-after-being-accused-by-high-court-of-intefering-with-court-case/

Look at how MM Lee, PM Lee and GCT abuse their power to quote Caveat Emptor and put the blame on the investors unfairly and to influence judge’s decision without knowing what is wrong with FI. Not only these elite people happily get away with their insensitive remarks, they even keep total silence when their remark backfire on the Town Council investment. Pay peanut to get monkey but we pay fortune to get monkey or worse fat idle gorilla that do nothing but pour cold water on the people they trampled. And to think that they continue to rule with such dishonourble attitudes and incompetency.