perfect.

what happens if singaporeans like taking bitter pills over and over again? =)
teachers taught us xian1 ku3 hou4 tian2.

PM Lee forever!

i took the bitter medicine and now understand that is it something we call the placebo effect or the emperors new clothes syndrome.

Either way,

1)The cost of living as gone up

2) Wages have shrunk

3) Building of smaller housing – because people can’t afford them no more

4) Increase in foreign workers that lead to wage supression

5) Increase in foreign workers that lead to shortage of jobs

6) Minmum benchmark standard for Ministers salaries, none for its citizens

7) Low Singaporean birth rate – this is a great mystery that our great ministers cant seem to even identify the root of the problem

8) CPF seems like a moving goal post

9) Losss in GIC – small matter here, BIG news from other Quality news websites!!

10) First world ministers and MPs, that self proclaim they are they best in the world

Hip hop hurray!

Retirement is out of reach, medical fees will bleed your finances.
Sell your home, downgrade to free your cashflow
Pay more for little as the cost of living escalates.
Move on with nothing to your name.

Yes we are in the golden era, if we count start to count backwards!

aiyoyo

bitter medicine again?!

why must like that?? if got really do homework in their investments

wa so blur already, later take bitter medicine how huh??

cpf again?! no la pls pls pls times are so tough already liao

aiyoyo : need to think hard on survival liao

(regret last time army daz no join survival training)

forever prescribing medicine. It’s clear what a sorry state Singapore is in today, isn’t it? One day they will suggest euthanasia, oh wait, they already suggested that

aiyoyo

read more news nowadays make people more scary

(economic so bad, investments loss, bitter medicine, terrorists etc…)

why come to this stage huh??

aiyoyo not sure if the PEOPLE got do homework??

Yes, the 2% GST hike was really very bitter. We were forced to swallow it with the implication that when we take the more bitter medicine earlier, we would only need to take it once.

I would expect the government to have all ’safety net’ measures ready after more than one year of collecting the additional taxes.

It’s sad and painful to see so many fellow Singaporeans trying desperately to make ends meet.

They claimed that the GST hike was to help the poor. Can they show us how many people they have helped with their increased tax revenue?

Or are they trying to smoke us with the “we are helping but we can’t show you the books” rhetoric again?

i suggest he gives us poison once and for all…to ends HIS STUPIDITY !

I posted the following in another section in TOC. For the reader’s consideration.

This government has its priority totally misplaced. The economy is sinking deeper into recession, yet we get the following

1. substance-less lip service

2. no cut in the GST

3. no direct help from the reserves. If the biggest global crisis since the Great Depression is not severe enough to use some of the reserves to prevent further deterioration, I don’t know what is.

3. $150B of deposit guarantee. $2.3B of business loan guarantee. No government funds will only be activated unless something fails. Is it not better to arrest before things spiral out of control?

4. announced measures (a few million dollars here and there) are too little. They treat the symptoms and not the causes.

5. Commit to the wrong infrastructure projects. What is the point of a $5B MCE (most expensive tunnel in the world)? There are worthier public infrastructure projects.

6. Continue to make wrong investment decisions at GIC and Temasek, resulting in massive losses.

Based just on recent performance, it is clear we do not have a first class government; not even second class at that.

Sugar coated medicine? What prescription is this? Why not Honey chelated? I do not want to contract diabetes (pardon the pun). No thank you. I dislike laxatives too.

Well, I will reserve my further comment whether this is a good prescription until the budget is unveiled. If the following are addressed then perhaps I will find it more reasonable to our suffering fellow Singaporeans.

1) Waive SC charges for 12 months starting from Jan 2009.
2) Revoke the 21% increment and rebate to tenants
3) Further reduce Utilities charges by 10%
4) Allow each household to use CPF to settle SC charges, Utilities bill, Property Tax, TV License (should scratched this totally), medical bills in full, school tuition fees, from Jan 2009 ~ Dec 2010. Set a cap of 25K per household withdrawal. To minimize administration, link payment process to GIRO.
5) Income Tax waiver for citizen earning 2.5K or less per month. Reduce tax bracket for those earning between 30K><150K annually.
6) Lower Corporate Tax by 1% and increase tax bracket for citizen earning 150K and above annually.
7) For those who had lost their jobs or are out of work, allow them to CPF withdrawal up to 1.5K a month for the next 2 years to ride through the recession or until they have found a new job whichever is earlier.
8) Outsource the TC HDB maintenance and service work to Singaporean own companies (for every foreign employ, there must be three local Singaporeans employed). Retain the administrative and management team to oversee.
9) Revoke the TC liberty to invest individually. If investments are to be made, make it as a collective pool and constituents to be informed of such investments and its percentage or amount contributed to this pool.
10) Increase the CPF withdrawal amount of those retirees. They are retired citizens and should be enjoying their retirement years leisurely. They had already paid their dues and contributed to the economies. Not every retire citizen like to work after they have slug for so many years.

If there are handouts (as reported earlier), I believe it will be some kind of Government issued bonds that can be cash out or retain for future growth linked to the economy that can be cash out (without tax or strings attached).

Yes, the reserves may be down by some S$80 to 100billion after these measures. Too drastic? Too harsh a request? I am not a finance trained person, so this is just my layman estimates. Well it is better than to sink the money into loosing Financial Institutions right? You are top-notch ministers and your entourage of high paying members (including those financial savvy) will find a way to drive the economy to the next “golden era”. We believe you can do it. Make us believe that you are worth the money that you are receiving. You guys peg your salary with the top private sectors earners right? In the Corporate World, we are your investors, and it is the duty of CEOs to ensure the profitability and interest of its investors are protected. If no, then you need to take lessons from Mr. Warren Buffet. Whatever you do, please do not do it at the expense of common citizenry, we had enough of these already.

By the way, recently UBS former executives had returned their perks and bonuses. Even some Goldman Sachs executive had foregone their bonuses this year (fall short of returning what had been “stolen” earlier so to speaks, nevertheless a good gesture). Will you follow suit?
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/International_Business/Former_UBS_executives_return_583_million_in_bonuses/articleshow/3766652.cms

Good times means take medicine
Bad times means take medicine again.

Singaporeans taking drugs forever!
When can we see the fruits!

Increment for many companies are low even in good times. Some even get 3-4% increment only. Ministers up pay like nobody business! Fruits you take bitter pills we take.

Government like bao jia!

So much Bitter Medicine has been forced down S’poreans’ throats for so long that we have totally forgotten how sweet honey tastes like!!

The employer CPF contribution was NOT fully restored during the “golden era”. The wages of S’poreans (read as S’pore Citizens) have been depressed by the free inflow of foreigners, who easily obtained PRs.

Now S’poreans are being told that we need to take another dose of Bitter Medicine. The reported “cut” in ministerial salary is very misleading. Their bonus has always been pegged to GDP growth. So when GDP growth slows, obviously their bonus would be lower. There is absolutely no VOLUNTARY cut in their salary.

The British govt is seriously considering a cut in VAT and rise in the highest income bracket tax rate.

Contrast that with S’pore, where our leaders said GST will NOT be reduced!!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/23/economy-taxandspending

Oh, I forgot to mention, after factoring in item 4, 7, 10 (which is actually our hard earned money), the amount to the measures suggested may cost only some 10~20 billions or less. Fractionally lower than the money lost in the UBS & ML investments. The TC thing, I think it is good to get to bottom of things.

Was expecting this already lah.

For every recession, what did the PAP do?

Besides meaningless re-training, the only thing implemented was CPF cuts.

The question is only, how many % points would be cut?

5 or 10? (given this recession is very severe and not like the previous ones)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2008/nov/23/economy-taxandspending

Well, we can either sit here and complain till the cows come home or do something about it at the next elections. Make sure you speak with everyone you know who will be eligible to vote and remind them of the bitter but useless medicine (poison?) that the PAP keeps shoving down our throats. Try your very best to persuade them NOT to vote for the PAP. If Obama and the Democratic Party could motivate an electorate to reject the GOP we can work to motivate the 66.6% to reject the PAP.

Normally when I see a doctor n the medicine given cannot cuse my illness, I will have 2nd opinion, that mean I will see 2nd doctor.

Vote this “Doctor” out of parliment next election, and get a 2nd “Doctor” for our “illness”.

Did those people announced what is their solution to solve this econ crisis?

In TW , some are asking for their monetary person to resign for the layman thingie.

Thank you Andrew for a well written article for the people.
We each owe you a beer or 2. :)

bitter medicine? Oh you mean they have lost so much money and they need to squeeze us more to top u the pot again so that they can play monopoly like what they used too.

Say so lah.

When times are bad why tax people further. Give them a break. This year, I didnt even get any increment and my job load has increased by 25%. I even work during weekends. On top of that everything is going up.

Now this (sigh) ;(

Reply to Teo Hopeless Pin:

I want to vote but only given one chance to vote for the past 50 years. After PAP win 51% in Serangoon Area (sandwich between Hougang and Patong Pasir), the next election, our zone become Marine Parade GRC. From then to now never even given a chance to vote unless I move to opposite zone.

It is time to review this stupid GRC which forced denied my chance to vote for a government endorse by me!

I think you guys need to understand that the reserves are reserved for rainy days, not for cloudy days. I foresee that the rain is coming, in about a million years time! So what to do?

aiyoyo

prices in this country UP UP UP

economy in this country down down down…

aiyoyo

vote for them somemore lah! you folks better now tattoo this reminder onto your body till next GE, never to put a ‘X’ on this party anymore, we’ve been continuously screwed eversince ah leng took over office from ah tong till today, not enough iggit? ever think of your childrens future? you want them to contiue being tortured like we folks are going through now or you want them to have a much better lives than us? Each one of us have a duty to do as the citizens of singapore now, do it right now or screw it further.

Thank you Andrew for reminding us of Mr FIXit doing us in again. No worries, near election time, he’ll BUY the voters again.

This is how I feel.
First, they give me (medicine for external use only) KY jelly.
Then the big shaft.
Then AIDS.
Now I’m forced to take anti-retroviral medication for the rest of my life.

Congratulations!

We’ve been screwed again.

Talk and manifesto like STAYING TOGETHER MOVING AHEAD is cheap. We keep staying together taking all his toxic pills while he and his party pals moved so far ahead with inflated ego and salary. If one cannot deliver what one promised, integrity goes down the gutter.

Much as we bitch about his bitter or sugar -coated pills. I doubt he gives a damn. He’ll talk you down, call you an ingrate and remind you how lucky you are to have talents like him in the cabinet.

He may even remind you that things happening in Bangkok and Mumbai will not happen in SIngapore because of their exorbitant talents.

Then again, as these wastrels have been gambling away our reserves and making us poor with their callous policies, if not for peace, then what we are paying them for?

It’s interesting to note that when they open their mouths to talk, they seem to be so smilingly cool and distant from the peoples’ problems.

If I know what medicine they take for themselves, I’ll take some too.

feedmetothefish

While Singapore Citizen take the bitter pills in year 2007, do our “First World Ministers” take the same bitter pills with us? No, they are taking sweet instead by increasing their income two time already. What kind of Ministers we have, Suffer You (Singapore Citizen) suffer, Enjoyment they (Our First World Ministers) Enjoy. What kind of carp they are talking. Let do some about it Singapore Citizen and use your Human Right to wake this Government Up.

Stop think for yourself only, Think for your Country and your next generation future. We are already suffering until we cannot tahan. How about our future generation if this money minded Government continue govern Singapore and take our hard money so easily.

If there is 1% chance for you to win 4D or Toto, I think all Singaporean will try it. regardless there are 99% losing chance. Who know may be you will win, Right!

How about take this 1% chance to try vote for Opposition in coming GE, We may have a better life then right now or may be worse. Who know? If you never try that 1% chance to Change our Ruling Party away, Confirmed with Stamp Chop that 99% we will suffer for another 4 to years under present Ruling Party.

PLEASE WAKE UP SINGAPOREAN!

That is provided the “medicine” is really medication…

Hi Richard, “If there is 1% chance … to win 4D or Toto,…”
I will sell all my properties, borrow BIG time, and bet on them all day, everyday. Today the chances of wining Toto is about 0.00005%.

They taught by rezoning serangoon under marine parade, they will win forever, all those useless MPs under marine parade, won by walkover because Goh Chok Tong, if not do you think they can win ??

is time for them to know that too much of medicine also no good for pple……once immune to the medicine….that’s it……they will sure die……

Wah whip the govt again haha.

Maybe we should take a look at ourselves first –

When they raise GST to 7% nobody complained as PM Lee needs the money for welfare programmes. We believed.

When they raise electricity tariff by 21% few people complained as price os foil escalated. We believed abit.

When they increased ERP more than a few people complained as those who drive can afford it. We believed. it all.

When they use our S & C money to invest, quite a few people complained as inflation outbeat the interest rate of FDs. We believed little bit.

When they don’t bothered about minibond investors, quite alot of people complained as some think that they were manipulated by RMs. We believed in ourselves.

When they bring in FTs as they are cheaper and important to the economy, many complained as they steal away our jobs. We believed but it hurts.

When they bring in the IRs, not many people complained as PM Lee promised more jobs to the people. We believed plus we also like to gamble.

When they cut CPF rates in 1999, not many people complained as if not more MNCs will pull out to China or Vietnam. We believed with our heart and wallet.

The list never end as there are some reasons attached to every unpopular policy introduced.

Take care all and remember to take your medicine regularly and preferably once every few weeks for better result. The cure may take some time to take effect.

Letter to Staff:

Due to the current financial situation caused by the slowdown of the economy in US since last Christmas,

Management has decided to implement a scheme to put workers of 40 years of age on early retirement.

This scheme will be known as RAPE (Retire Aged People Early).

Persons selected to be RAPEd can apply to management to be eligible for the SHAFT scheme (Special Help After Forced Termination).

Persons who have been RAPEd and SHAFTed will be reviewed under the SCREW scheme (Scheme Covering Retired Early Workers).

A person may be RAPEd once, SHAFTed twice and SCREWed as many times as Management deems appropriate.

Persons who have been RAPEd can also get AIDS (Additional Income for Dependants or Spouse) or HERPES (Half Earnings for Retired Personnel Early Severance).

Obviously persons who have AIDS or HERPES will not be SHAFTed or SCREWed any further by management.

Persons staying on will receive as much SHIT (Special High Intensity Training) as possible.

Management has always prided itself on the amount of SHIT it gives employees.

Should you feel that you do not receive enough SHIT, please bring to the attention of your Supervisor.

They have been trained to give you all the SHIT you can handle..

Sincerely,

The Management

Hot from the stove to share. The Hong Kong Consumer Association is lobbying for restaurants and eateries to promote affordable meals (HK$1 lunch or dinner). Quite a number of restaurants and eateries had given their support to help fellow Hong Kong people to ride through this recession. Albeit the promtional offer has limitation (example: Some will offer HK$1 dishes for the first 30 orders on a first come first serve basis…others extended to the first hour in business for HK$1 lunches, even bakery shop offers HK$1 for half a dozen of pastries…etc), this is what I call Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) in a small scale during hard time. A very innovative and laudable way of showing their token appreciation to customers who patronised them during good times. This promotional offer will take place come December 1. I hope Singapore retail businesses will take a cue and learned from Hong Kong to also do their part to help needy fellow Singaporeans to ride through this recession period.

Tan KuKu,

Yes, I only got to vote once in 1986. What I intend to do if my ward is a walkover is to remind anyone I know that lives in a constituency that is being contested about all the bitter medicine that we’ve been forced to take and encourage them to vote opposition at all cost.

Even if we are denied the opportunity to vote, we must try to persuade the 66.6% not to make the same mistake they made in 2006. We must deny the PAP a majority in the next elections.

I think you missed the point totally. Your statement “I think Singaporeans are the ones looking for the toilet now, with the bitter pill seemingly a laxative, rather than any actual relief” is completely side-tracked. Or maybe you do not understand the Chinese prescription – its the bitter medicine that is good for you.

With all your intelligence, I’m quite surprised you say “all that Singaporeans seem to be doing these past years is swallowing bitter stuff” which is rather myopic.

If you are able to analyze a fair valuation of Spore’s performance vis a vis those in the other ASEAN countries now, you will realize that everything that our Government has been doing is to ensure the sustainability of our livelihood and to hedge against economic crises like what we are going through.

Count your blessings we ate the bitter pill earlier or we will not have immunization nor the coffers to bring us through this economic crisis. As I said earlier, the bitterpill, as the wise will understand, is a remedy. Or perhaps you are not so deep?

“Count your blessings we ate the bitter pill earlier or we will not have immunization nor the coffers to bring us through this economic crisis. As I said earlier, the bitterpill, as the wise will understand, is a remedy. Or perhaps you are not so deep?”

the pills we ate contributed to the coffers that is being depleted by those “capable” investors right now, billions and billions of dollars. do you read anything other than ST, or perhaps you are not so deep?

if you read properly, he wants to say that the pills we ate was supposedly needed and then move on, and we ate it. Now? we are again forced to eat those pills, sugar-coating or not. When would we stop eating those pills? You mean your Chinese medicine that is bitter is designed for you to keep eating?

whose the myopic one now? or are you like MM Lee, looking long-term now eh?

aiyoyo

since this country so many things going on

got other country to go to or not huh?

not sure if other country also like this country, so ‘messy’?

aiyoyo

“If you are able to analyze a fair valuation of Spore’s performance vis a vis those in the other ASEAN countries now, you will realize that everything that our Government has been doing is to ensure the sustainability of our livelihood and to hedge against economic crises like what we are going through.”

Hedge ?? Spare us the trouble ?? Just let us do our own hedging without ‘taxing’ us too much.

“Count your blessings we ate the bitter pill earlier or we will not have immunization nor the coffers to bring us through this economic crisis.”

Blessings ? Does this value add in the creation of jobs in this trying time.

thank god that I got out of my CPF trap! retired at 55, settled all my housing loans and enjoying life after all Life is short and everything got it’s limits. why be slave to working life and miss your golden yrs.,,,higher medcal cost is going to kill us all. ….there are no jobs for skilled older Singaporeans…..were told to go for upgrading skills and do what? clean toilets or push trollies! even at airport terminals passengers are DIY.

there is a Minister for Youth and Sports is there a Minister for the Aged and Social activties

Andrew,
as usual, your article lacks reasoning and substance.
You are only good at poking at comments made in the past and twisting it.

After reading the article, what have you suggested as viable alternatives to their bitter medicines? Readers come away knowing the possibility the government might not be doing good with its promise to the citizens.

I hate to break it to you but a majority of singaporeans know that. But there is no viable alternatives.

If I were to vote during an election, I would not vote for the opposition with candidates like you. I’m putting myself in greater peril than if I voted in PAP. The lesser of the two evils.

Could you please focus yourself more on coming up with alternatives, instead of poking around. People already know the government is not living up to its promise to the citizens. What they want is viable solutions to the problem.

They are not hearing it from the oppositions and so, they have no option but to swallow the bitter medicine again and again.

Please “upgrade” yourself to think about viable solutions. Everyone can see the problems, not many can think of the solutions. Oh , am i repeating myself? ..Oh yes..I am.. but so have you ..with all your articles.

Even all the pills to swallow got 7% GST. can swallow the pills but not the GST so GST stand for Gasak Sampai Terok…….must swallow with your pills and you kena gasak

“Everyone can see the problems, not many can think of the solutions.”

Have you ever heard of this refrain before, sometimes the problem and the solutions to it is right at the tip of your own nose.

In short , you are the problem and the solution.

I was plugged (perform lunatic urgent grilling-grooming exercise designate) via merger and aquisition even in good times. my company was acquired by the dominant player here in Singapore and was absorbed to retrain the newer inflows from their linked companies and know what? after that they I have no choice but placed under the RAPE scheme of my own accord…….and this what they call JOB Recreation …..novel idea!

omongkosong,
u are damned good leh

45) Rondeng on November 29th, 2008 8.28 pm

Cut cost to save jobs interplaying with cut jobs to save costs.

If you keep on indulging in this circular logical thingy, you will end up going nowhere.

We, the citizens taking the bitter pill, need not have a $3m doctor to re-emphasize the fact.
Wait, why is the doctor taking more sugar than the rest of us are?!!?

“He said that ‘looking around’, Chileans had ‘a problem’, but he was not about to advocate that they follow Singapore’s example.

In another life, the Prime Minister [LHL] would have made a great lecturer. In both Sao Paolo and Santiago, he gave a concise tutorial in Singapore System 101.”

– Bertha Henson, ST 29 Nov

Where did this craven piece of irrelevant shit comes from?

@42
I have to agree with you, as of now there are no other ‘credible’ candidates.

Backed by the fact that many constituencies are ‘walkover’ there isn’t much of a chance to vote anyway.

For those who can, perhaps we could give a chance to some other alternative party (other than SDP). We need someone with strong ties with the people, who remains sane in times of trouble and not run off with his/her own dreams of building a casino.

40) Bongkang on November 29th, 2008 7.57 pm thank god that I got out of my CPF trap! retired at 55, settled all my housing loans and enjoying life after all Life is short and everything got it’s limits. why be slave to working life and miss your golden yrs.,,,higher medcal cost is going to kill us all. ….there are no jobs for skilled older Singaporeans…..were told to go for upgrading skills and do what? clean toilets or push trollies! even at airport terminals passengers are DIY.

Its true, whats the point of skill upgrading when you are already passed the rainbow, the jobs out there will still go to the FT anyway. This is just an excuse to show you people that they care for the people, what rubbish!

The problem sometimes is that ordinary citizens like me see what our govt doing as unfair, not because of what they reasoned but because I compared it to my current livelihoods and financial standings to theirs. They can be as ecstatic or lovely for all I care because they are paid way more than me. We pay the same GST for food and services but they got way more money than me to begin with.

One of us commented, I quote…
“If you are able to analyze a fair valuation of Spore’s performance vis a vis those in the other ASEAN countries now, you will realize that everything that our Government has been doing is to ensure the sustainability of our livelihood and to hedge against economic crises like what we are going through”

Very beautiful English and I might be tempted to agree at the first instant that you offered.
But then I got home and settled my groceries bills, utilities bills, many other bills that got the GST pricing and told myself..”This is hard work paying so much.” I don’t earn that much and my increment this year is at 2.2% no other bonuses except AWS for 2 years straight. Then I see minister’s salary and civil service bonuses…I compared..That got me seeing red.

So please spare all the chim talk about hedging and valuation, get down to the street level and see what we are paying everyday. The GST can be reduced and we definitely have the brains to sit down and think of a way to do it. It will lighten many Singaporeans burden.

42) isa on November 29th, 2008 8.03 pm

“Could you please focus yourself more on coming up with alternatives, instead of poking around. People already know the government is not living up to its promise to the citizens. What they want is viable solutions to the problem”

I think Andrew would have come out with alternatives if the ministers did not make a mockery out of nation building and social responsibility by paying themselves millions.

They have broken the hearts of many Singaporeans by their greed and selfishness. Lately their irresponsible acts confirm that Singapore is no longer a nation. The country is nothing but a corporation run by a bunch of mercenaries.

Being paid so handsomely paid, these talented snobs should come up with the solutions, not Andrew.

Or are we paying gaji buta?

feedmetothefish

Elaina,

I have two problems with your comment to Andrew’s piece.

1) Tone

Your snide remarks and sarcastic tone especially in your closing “Or perhaps you are not so deep?” is really quite unbecoming of an office holder in the YPAP Women’s wing, and I think is symptomatic of why people dislike your party.

Offline, you might be able to get away with speaking like because you happen to be the party in power, but online, your arguments will rise or fall on the strength of its logical reasoning.

Netizens will be quite willing to engage you in substantive debates, but the tone you are using really isn’t conducive to a substantive discussion, and unfortunately gives the impression you’re more keen on scoring debating points.

If this is symptomatic of the PAP’s internet strategy, then you really need to recalibrate the way you engage.

2) Substance

The only substantive point you raise in your comment is one that has been flogged to death by your Party: we aren’t doing as badly as our Asean neighbours.

Elaine, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t claim to want to be one of the best governements in the world, and then go into a defensive crouch comparing Sinapore with the worst when the PAP is criticized. I’m quite tired of hearing “we’re not as repressive as Burma, not as messy as Thailand, more meritocratic than Malaysia etc”.

All this is true, but why the low base of comparison?

Why not draw comparisons with countries that are indeed doing better than us on both standard of living and quality of life indicators to show how much further we need to go?

To my mind, that is a postive and constructive political outlook which the PAP, due to its lack of humility and introspection, could really learn something from.

Also, Elaina, I find your “count your blessings” comment completely arrogant and insensitive in light of people who are having a difficult time making ends meet as a result of the rising cost of living. Unfortunately, I hear these comments all to often from members of your Party.

There is a serious empathy gap you need to bridge: competence will only take you that far. There will come a day when the opposition can begin recruiting more professionals like Tan Kin Lian who have a track record of competence and who also have a heart for listening to and sharing the burdens that ordinary people face. Then you will really be in trouble.

People appreciate having their problems fixed, but not at the expense of their dignity and certainly not at the price of being made to feel like we owe your party money.

Please remember: your PAP MPs OWE THE PEOPLE a sympathetic ear as well as competent leadership, not arrogant and insensitive comments like yours and Teo Ho Pin’s that ‘we should feel thankful’ and ‘count our blessings’ for all the good work you’ve done.

You guys need a good dose of HUMILITY. Get off your high horse.

This article shows a lack of understanding of the underlying problems.

In any modern society, the root of the problem is not only the government but the people themselves. In any government, it is the bureaucrats that influence or initiate most of the decision too. For example, LTA -> ERP, CPF Board -> CPF, IRAS -> Tax. These people are not elected and are promoted based on meritocracy.

In the past, Singapore is able to “copy” other countries’ initiatives successfully. These initiatives include MRT, sea-side Airport (Changi), Public Housing, Orchard Road. However as Singapore progresses, it will be harder and harder to “copy” as there will be fewer role models to follow.

Recent developments, especially the IRs which are the pet projects of PM LHL, seemed to be copies of other countries too. It is fine to adapt from other countries, but how the decision was made is not transparent. Also the effect of such developments are not clear and easily debatable and thus can cause the loss of the confidence of the people.

Moreover the recent decisions such as GST hikes, are definitely not rationale. I am sure the Singapore Government would have foreseen the mortgage crisis of the US and the various inflation of the people in 2007 when the signs are already obvious. Once GST is increased, it is very difficult to decrease it because the retailers or business may play the “waiting game” and wait for competitors to reduce their prices first. It is difficult to control such situations. Decreasing GST is only possible if it is a drastic decrease with expensive enforcement. Hence every increase and decrease of GST should be carefully thought through.

Lets look more objectively at the underlying issues.

My personal opinion is that in the past, Singapore used to be more prudent with its money. Perhaps it is due to the smaller GDP or reserves it had and then PM, Mr Lee Kuan Yew, felt more responsible to spending every dollar of it. The MRT system took many years of consultation before a decision is reached. Even the Marina Barrage is envisioned, by MM LKY, more than a decade ago. Nowadays, with all the wrong investments, it does seem to be a government who is less prudent than before.

But before we put the blame on the government, we must understand that the government is made up of bureaucrats which are mainly Singaporeans. I am a Singaporean and I know that we always like to take the easy way out. When we face a problem, we ask the government for help. When we cannot complete an assignment, we copy or even photocopy from our classmates. When something happen, point fingers at other people. When we cannot find a partner, we blame the other gender.

The same is happening in our bureaucracy. When roads are jammed, just put up ERP gantries loh. When there are no babies, encourage couples to marry and bear children by using all sorts of policies loh. And recently, when there are oppositions, be it local or foreign, just sue them loh. If there is no easy solution, the next easier solution will be to copy other countries. If there is still no easy solution, hide it from the people (The idea is if there is no known problem, there is no problem. ).

The fact, the bureaucrats have been churning out solutions that clean the surface only. We just do not have the people that are thinking of the correct solutions. Obama has tons of advisers to help him in both his election process and his post-election. The point here is, are Singaporeans willing to take up the leadership positions? A look at the societies such as PA, Young PAP, Workers Party Youth Wing, Student Unions (NUS, NTU, SMU), various institutions, Young NTUC and many more societies will tell you that it is a mere minority of Singaporeans that are willing to take up leadership positions, despite a huge membership base. For example, NUS has 24,000 undergraduates but yet it is increasingly hard to find students willing to take up key positions as most students wanted to concentrate on their studies.

To partially conclude, there are many problems around, unsolved. Our education, our trade, our bureaucracy, our finance sector, our infrastructure (roads and housing for 6 million people), aging population, lack of babies and many more. Another key problem is the lack of talent. Other problems are also inter-tied. For example, education will affect our bureaucracy’s decisions, and our trade and finance will affect infrastructure. Lack of talents will affect everything. It becomes a whole basket of problems of which solutions of one problem may aggravate other problems. Hence it is not fair to blame our government when we ourselves are unable to come out with the solutions and when we are not willing to come out and lead.

It is good to voice out our opinions. However stirring up the emotions of the people unnecessarily is not the way to go. For example, quoting our MPs’ words will not help. Politicians are only doing what they are supposed to be doing – politics. Yes, not-so-good decisions are made. Everyone knows that. So what is your objective of writing this article? Such an article only brings out the selfish part of the reader who will feel that the government must help him or her, as we can see from the various comments above.

My two cents worth of suggestions:

Instead why not change the focus of the article in such a way that you will take up what the Government is not doing and yet contributing to the society? Just like Mr Tan Kin Lian who is willing to step out and provide precious knowledge of the law in terms of misrepresentation and mis-selling. Mr Tan is smart in the sense that he focused more on the elderly, so that the government is able to proceed with compensation without losing face. He also made the correct prediction that Hong Kong will be compensating the elderly. If not, even misrepresentation will not help in his fight, as this case is a very weak case in any Contract Law dispute. We will need more Mr Tan Kin Lian around, who knows how to politically handle the government in even the most unfavorable situation.

There are many ways TheOnlineCitizen can step in and help.
1) Get more opinions and solutions from the people.
2) Voice the useful ones to the correct authorities. Push for them in a lawful way.
3) Encourage proper articles. Do not censor them but please add in some editor views if the articles become side-tracked and no readers is voicing against the views. Pave your way to be more credible so that the SG government will not be able to shoot you down in any possible way. Only credibility can help you to push for more voices and participation in the future.
4) Attempt to be credible to both the people and the SG government. The former is easy but to be credible to the SG government will be difficult but possible.

I apologize for the extremely long comment. I felt that recent articles, though factual, are lacking the fundamental need which is useful participation. TOC has been doing well so far, but some articles are giving the idea of discrediting the government. I, being a typical selfish Singaporean, also hope that TheOnlineCitizen can move a step further in these critical times and push for solutions in a credible, and yet lawful, manner for the people, just like Mr Tan Kin Lian.

Elaina, though I am not from YPAP, I have friends from YPAP too. But none of them, not even people from high positions, are as politically-incorrect as you. If you are really from YPAP, I do agree with Zheng Xi that it is “unbecoming of an office holder in the YPAP Women’s wing”.

Zheng Xi, some comments made by politicians such as “we aren’t doing as badly as our Asean neighbours.” is more for a political effect. It is meant to calm the people down. Politicians are meant to say the politically right things. Though smarter citizens will able to point out that it is only politically correct and is not relevant in any sense due to deliberate comparison to less developed neighbors, there will be a need to portray an image of a stable Singapore for political and economic reasons. While it is debatable on whether there is substance in political comments, it is a fact that there is weight or influence in every political comment. I would fear more about PAP if our leaders say something like “We aren’t doing as good as our Chinese friends or European friends.”

56)Wei

A very long but thought provoking article. Kudos to you for speaking up.

I am also feeling uneasy that TOC frequently brought up some hiccupped statements by politicians and highlighted it here. Naturally, being anti-eastablishment netizens, we all used the opportunity to lamblast the authorities. I felt the anger raising in me whenever I put in some negative remarks about the govt. Nevertheless, after a while, I felt used to it and whenever I wrote, it is often either negative or formless. I have tried to stop putting such comments as it doesn’t really help me much nor the situation. It only make me feel worse. And I felt cheap also.

If I have read the comments here, a majority of them are similar anti-govt rhetoric and nothing new or refreshing came out of it. It is not helpful nor encouraging.

I have all along advocated for a more neutral TOC so that we can be respected not only for bringing out issues but also solutions. Being so anti-establishment, TOC may only attract alot of “opposition” viewers to their site. Those who are neutral or favours the ruling party may find the site distasteful.

My sincere wish is for TOC to evolve into a good alternative voice to the govt. Wishful thinking? Maybe not as I can see that there are alot of us who are patriotic and with good suggestions. The articles written can be skewed towards a netural bias so that people have a more balanced view of issues. By frequently putting up negative reporting on the govt is a sure way of being labelled negatively ourselves. Let us try to downplay negativism but to approach our issues with a more solution-focused approach.

Thanks all.

whether singapore is a nice place to live depended on your economic position in life. If you are middle class and above, this is a good place to live and bring up the family. if not, lives are tough.

I only believe in What I believe.
All governments in this world are the same.

(60) cm.Liwe
I only believe in What I believe.
All governments in this world are the same.

Not true. Our ministers are paid millions!

Hi Elaina,

Frankly lets list the problems first.

1) To be able to identify and acknowledge the actual root of the problem

2) Having the ability to listen to the people

3) To provide Singaporeans with a better quality of life

4) The ability to lead

5) very poor policy formulation

This has resulted in

Singaporeans getting poorer
Singaporeans not getting married and impacting the birth rate
Singaporeans having to work beyond their golden years
Singaporeans having to pay more for less
Singaporeans having their wages surpressed

And the BIG GIC investments that resulted in losses —- oh by the way is that money ours by any chance ?? Can someone calrify ?

Last but not least = Staying together moving ahead ???? ?

What is missing ? Good leaders to begin with :)
And why can they not address REAL issues that Singaporeans put forward ?

Frankly I am really thankful my grandma has not become a maid in some third world country. It’s really Freaky

There is a GREAT disconnect here. Change is the only constant

51)Tiredsingaporean:

Ya alot of jobless went for upgrading and after they got their cert they have no jobs.

So many are left disappointed and the taxpayer money is also wasted here.

It may be good for the govt to match the work first and then the candidates go for the training afterwards. What good is $600 million training programme when there is no work available after that? Something silly I feel.

Hi Gilbert,

was thinking about this , so we upgrade ourselves and spend our money during this economic downturn, and at the same time companies are doing the following

1) Rentrenchment
2) Paycuts
3)) headcount freeze- no recruitment
4) Employing those that can take the lowest pay – as there is no minimum salary standard.

With the EVER growing population, how many jobs can it offer to its Citizens ?

How will spending and retraining help. when companies are doing the above ?

How will GST help the poor ? ? ?

MP’s please provide some insight ….

Hi everyone,

Thanks for all the comments – both the positive ones and negative ones.

First, I am glad to know that some of you expect more of TOC. We will work hard to meet that expectation – keeping in mind that we are all amateurs and part-timers with hardly any resources other than our fingers and a brain.. :)

Second, TOC, though we hope to meet the high standards set by our readers’ expectation, nonetheless allows a rant or two from time to time. After all, one of our very few requirements for our articles is that it be an honestly-held view. So, this article of mine would fall into that category – an honestly-held rant, if you will.

Third, though most of the time we disallow comments which take personal digs at our authors, I will allow it this time.

Fourth, those who feel that I should offer alternatives miss the point – articles are not meant to offer alternatives. They are only meant to voice out honestly-held feelings and points of views.

Even our nation-building mainstream press do not offer alternatives in every article. Why hold us to this standard then?

Yet, having said that, if one looks back on past TOC articles, I believe we have or have tried to offer alternatives. An example would be our recent proposal on public transport.

Besides, the above article is on the economy and how the govt wants to prescribe “bitter medicine” again. To ask that I – or we – come up with alternative solutions would actually be requiring us to do the work done by all ministries across the board, a task which is done daily by thousands of people in all the ministries.

How should I come up with alternatives? Where should I start? Honestly, I do not even know where to begin.

For commenters from the Young PAP, I would advise that you take a look at your own Young PAP blog first.

Thanks!

Regards,
Andrew Loh

1% increase in GST is too much for Singaporeans but LHL wanted 2%
1 Casino is too much for Singaporeans, but LHL built 2
1 DPM is enough for Singaporean, LHL needed 2
1 SM is useless for Singaporean, LHL needed 2
>>>>>>> and more
so LHL is fated to have 2 w>>>>

It would be good if the MP’s would use this honest platform to address issues or RANTS that everyday Singaporeans have.

The MP’s should take this opportunity to engage and provide a better insight on WHAT and HOW (please incude timelines and milestones- thats what we are paying top dollar for :) ) the Singapore Govt and MP’s are doing to ensure Singaporeans have a better quality of life.

The old school days of promotional Slogans are long gone and have turned to ashes of disbelieve.

Please provide timely and progressive updates of progess and your only measurement is the voices of the Singapore people.

Do your part first by going about your neighbourhood. Know the people who need assistance. Be proactive and not reactive. Engage the community that have injected their trust into you.

Keep case studies and profiles of your assistance to ensure these people do not fall into the poverty trap. Always revisit the your past cases and followup on any assistance to be taken.

To begin with ask yourself, if you have ever visited the poorer estates personally ?

Andrew

Thanks for your perspective – appreciate it.

Having think through what you said, I felt better as at least you have given netizens the platform to raise issues. Mabye netizens can do better by providing solutions to problems than ranting senselessly away. Sometimes, the commentaries given do look similar and systematic. It is as though they are already stored up somewhere and one just need to press a button and out it goes!

I find it rather tasteless that TOC keeps on digging out quotes from politicians and use them to provoke us into providing frustrating comments. It sure does not help the situation much at all. What it can do is to think of possible ways to help solve the situation. By doing up the template for residents to file in their enquiry on the mismanagment of TC’s finds was a very innovative idea and this should be continued. Good job for that.

TOC can also provide alot of other avenues for netizens to participate actively and even organise online/live protest. TKL’s protest at HLP was a good one and i know that it is also involved heavily in the Human Rigths forum. So keep up the good work nonetheless!

Regardless, I thank you for doing up a solid website despite limited manpower. Do let me know if you need further assistance. Much appreciated!

Reading Elaina Olivia Chong’s comments, I felt a tinge of sadness.

It seems like you are the one missing the point.

Despite your achievements, you have not cultivated the basic mannerism of a compassionate leader. The essence of your comments demonstrates an utter lack of empathy and compassion towards people lesser then you.

Suffice to say, having been assimilated into the world of elites from a young age, you have totally disconnected yourself with the ground.

If your views are representative of the political elites, I fear for the future of our people.

A true leader think with a brilliant mind but rule with his heart. I plead you to get off your ivory tower of complacency and take a look at the real world.

Good day Gilbert,

I think past quotes are good as they project the acutal past and present views these MP’s and Elites have.

Personally, These quotes give me a better understanding of the runaround I have been given, and I thank TOC for having this platform.

I guess it’s only a “natural reponse” you will get from the public when the review the past and present quotes, and I do not think it is wrong to feel this way.

The internet is GOD sent for Singaporeans for what it has to offer.
It is good, and I think these quotes serve as a reminder to use our votes wisely.

What most will agree is the pattern or cookie cutter answers that you can expect from our ministers and MP’s

If the answers or feedback by our elite provided a solution or a resolve, thats good, but if is just to brush off the issue ( as most quotes reflect and it happens most of the time ) than they should clearly be highlighted to keep fellow Singaporeans informed on the standards of our ministers and NMP’s

With all this internet feedback, are our MP’s taking this feeback positively ? or do they do brush it off ?

Signs of life ?

Elaina,

Sorry to have to drag this on but I really need to get this off my chest. Your generation of PAP people have absolutely NO moral authority to preach to Singaporeans the way you’ve been trying to do in your comments. If LKY told me to “count my blessings” I would be stung at being talked to in that tone of voice. I would dislike it but I would still take it with some respect for someone who’s gotten his hands dirty, even though I dislike the way he did it.

You, on the other hand, who have nothing to do with our nation’s success except your association with the PAP, have absolutely no right to speak us this way, as if it was your generation of YPAP who built this country up. I will give credit where it is due, take chastisment from my elders and betters, but I can only shake my head in indignation at the audacity of you presuming to ride the coattails of your forbearer’s achievements.

Dear Gilbert,

“I find it rather tasteless that TOC keeps on digging out quotes from politicians and use them to provoke us into providing frustrating comments.”

I hold a different view and thoughts from yours. I think it is a good gesture of TOC to extract past quotes delivered by leaders to give them or the citizenry a reminder of what had been said before and whether promises then were materialized and how it is doing currently.

As to whether to provoke frustrating comments, this I truly believe is very individual as each one of us holds a different perspective and views on things and values. I personally had made quite a few comments on this negativity (whether directly to Andrew or TOC or in this site) towards almost any article published here that I thought is rather unhealthy. At times, I find that even trivial issues get their spotlight or any credible publication on government’s good deed (not that many as I recall), somehow became politicize for no reasons and even receive its fair dose of uncalled for lambasting. That I attributed it to the maturing state of a small segment of citizenry I hope. But then, if you re-examine these posters previous comments, you will find a different outlook for some of them and soon you might come into terms why is this so and may have your empathy unto them. Yes, I think Andrew and TOC knew there are rooms for improvement and are receptive of ideas and suggestions but not without the generosity of posters and readers help. This is not a political forum as I see it but some may feel or want to make it as one. It is beyond the control of Andrew or TOC apart from moderating adverse remarks on racial and religion or personal vendetta. To this, I personally would think credit is due.

I can also see unimaginable diverse views such like “isa” and “Elaina” offers nothing insightful but criticism. I would certainly like to hear from both of them what they think will really work for Singapore in this current recession or they have long surrender their thinking hoot and leave it totally with the government? Just on this “sugar-coated medicine” announcement by LHL who I will always remember that he once commented it is okay for 10 people to cramp into a 3 room HDB flat. You both (particularly Elaina) have spoken like you knew or implied that you knew what is/are being installed for the common citizenry. I believe the majority of readers here will be very enlighten if you care to share your insightful news.

I for one do not deny that there are responsibilities on both ends (i.e. the governing parties and our fellow Singaporeans) when dealing with adverse situation such like this once a century recession that economy experts worldwide had coined it. However, when you have gone through decades and decades of false believes thinking that you are governed by leaders that are supposedly compassionate towards its citizenry and yet, time and again, the truth is from it. The ground sentiments are a good testing bed. True to the nail that some will feel it is something that the government can do nothing about it and the citizenry has to play their part in fostering a better future for Singapore. Not all are denying this fact. What a majority of us here (including myself who honestly speaking is not seriously affected), is asking the government to do is to show a little more compassion and care towards the less-fortunate and be a little more flexible when dealing with dire strait cases. Get more in touch with the ground people to listen with patience and offer a few words of assurance not display their arrogance and ignorance. Above all these, their promises made for the citizenry will be more believable if a little more transparency and accountability to be put in place. Is this too much to ask for? Are these not constructive suggestions for a better and more cohesive Singapore?

Oops, my sincerest apology. This statement should read “….the truth is far from it.” Thanks.

Gilbert,

I think you give me too much credit. The article was not meant to provoke. I don’t think I have the skills to do so.

As for past quotes, I wish I could use more and do more of these, actually. It is only in comparing what was said in the past that we can compare the truth of the present.

And believe me, I have only used one quote from PM Lee for this article to compare with one from him from the past. I could do more – if I wanted to provoke anything or anyone.

ANdrew

As Wei(#56) has highlighted, there are so many students but few are willing to take up leadership positions. First we should examine the issues they face:

1. The primary role of a student paying about $26k+ in tuition fees is to come out with some good paper qualifications. If one deviates from this goal, not only his or her $26k+ be wasted, but may also end up with difficulties finding a job in future. This is with the general assumption that good qualifications gets one a job, which remains true for a relatively large proportion of graduates. A fraction of the student body would have financed their fees via loans, which means putting them into debt straight after graduation. Not a very beneficial situation to be in.
This group would be inclined to fend for their own survival first. So what is the proportion of students in this group? I think that the proportion is significant, about 50% of local students.

2. Next, the uninterested. There would be a portion who are totally not interested in politics or whatever – they have their own goals in life, e.g. sports, research, gaming, etc.

So looking at the recent economic downturn, people in both groups may have been a little more aware of the situation, but this may not be a positive factor in deviating them from their goals. For people in the first group, a portion may start to get part time employment to sustain themselves. Would they be more interested in political decision making?

Even if the citizen body helps to make decisions, there is also a probability that ministers would not listen to their opinion. How high is that probability? The higher this probability is, the decision makers (who are paid naught) would feel that their efforts are in vain and would go back to concentrating on their primary objectives. Look back into history, how many times have opinions and solutions been taken into account?

I believe many out there have given viable / reasonable solutions before, but due to ‘meritocracy-ranking’, to the decision makers up there they aren’t high enough in the ranks to be considered. What happens to such people whose voices are left unheard repeatedly?

Perhaps this is the first step – to actually listen to people’s opinions, before such people turn into anti-estab ranting cynics.

“Sorry to have to drag this on but I really need to get this off my chest. Your generation of PAP people have absolutely NO moral authority to preach to Singaporeans the way you’ve been trying to do in your comments. If LKY told me to “count my blessings” I would be stung at being talked to in that tone of voice. I would dislike it but I would still take it with some respect for someone who’s gotten his hands dirty, even though I dislike the way he did it.”

zhengxi i got issues with this. its time Singaporeans get out of the thinking of “we owe LKY” or that “singapore owes LKY”. Many articles and clear examples today have shown us how other countries have developed without anyone like LKY. I also feel that the constant claiming of credit and the constant reminders by LKY totally puts me off. Singapore got to where it is today not because of him, but because of the hard work put in by everyone. if we stop giving him the high respect that he keeps trying to claim, perhaps singaporeans can move beyond being in awe of him and move beyond a climate of fear.

i totally concur with your second point about the other generations of PAP’s leaders. that’s why i was pissed when i saw the remarks made by her, smacks of insensitivity and complete disregard for any form of humility.

TO ZHENG XI

I note your comments about mine on Andrew’s piece.
To begin with, I have made my personal comments. I am curious why you bring in the PAP? I believe I have a right to make a personal comment and on what basis do you say I speak on behalf of the party? Unless I don’t?

On matters of Tone
How come you are so easily offended? My tone reflects who I am and your comment seems to me to be one that smacks of character assassination. As a manner of speech, I intended to spur in-depth discussion, and draw insights as precious such as yours. You might have misunderstood my intentions.

On matters of Substance
Perhaps, on issues of benchmark, I have travelled to cities from Europe to US and Asia to know what I am talking about. If you feel otherwise, I respect your opinion.

Well, I count my blessings and I am sorry you don’t. The Government has provided my education, supported my career and given me a roof over my head. I urge you to be humble, be grateful and cherish what is before you.

I wish to say you have strangely pluralized and politicized your entire comment, and its seems you are not receptive to comments. Who else is going to say anything constructive here if you only want to have anti-PAP comments on this site?

Zheng Xi, I think you should rethink your concept of humility.

@77
Possibly that people reading may infer that you speak on behalf of YPAP/YPW rather than an individual, and have certain expectations.

Allow me to be blunt and state my views on some generalizations that are around:
1. Elite – one who often disses the resentment from peasants and supports the ruling party
2. Peasant – one who voices resent against the ruling party, may not necessarily support an alternative party
I notice its very common for netizens to jump to conclusions in labelling each other with such terms – for better or for worse I shall not judge, but one should take it as feedback on the appearance they are showing to the public.

Next..
I believe people take sides for a reason, minus irrational causes. First example, a citizen in a constituency which experiences repeated walkovers, having an MP who fails to represent the people, and being subjected to national policies placed in his disadvantage and hindering his or her objective of attempting to make ends meet. Second example, a citizen who is now experiencing higher standards of living, receiving wage increments, and has benefited in one way or another via national policies. On whose sides would they be on?

Next..
You have visited cities in Europe, US and Asia, so allow me to ask for some of your opinions. Putting aside the progress of the country on the whole, how would you gauge the living standards of the middle, low and no-income groups here, and how the policies within the last 1-2 years have affected them?

Finally..
Education, career, housing – I’m sure many others like you and me would be thankful for having these three components.
For those who are lacking in one way or another, they worry about how they are going to spend their next day, week, or month. There are people who have lost their jobs, unable to fund their education, or unable to get a roof over their heads – throw in rising costs and three-stage wage increase for ministers, how would they feel?

There are multitudes of issues as of now – but I feel as time passes, the people are more divided than ever,

I could go on, but I think there are enough points for discussion for now.

Hi Elaina,

I am glad you intend to spur in-depth discussions on this thread. Although everyone is entitled to, and does have his/her own perspective, I hope this does not stop us from having the kind of debate that we so need now.

Personally, I think one of the benchmarks of any good governance is the question of whether we are better off now than we are ten-twenty years ago. I suggest we look beyond the GDP as an indicator, and speak to the people on the streets now. Have you noticed the number of cab drivers who hold degrees and were managers before? Or that it used to be common that there’s only one breadwinner in a typical middle class family? I believe what people cannot understand is how is that with our impressive GDP, the effects have not been felt much by the middle income bracket and lower.

What do you think is a decent income a family should have to make ends meet nowadays? Do you think 2k is enough? How many households are making less than 2k per month? How many people get to travel around as much as you?

On the subject of GST, firstly rather than debating whether it is a bitter pill to swallow, the question might be – is it the right prescription. Many people have mentioned that it is a regressive tax. If you disagree, what are your evidence that it serves the lower-income bracket better?

I’m glad you feel that we are blessed not to be born in the other Asean countries. But I also believe that we should not let past gratitude get in the way of pointing out when things are going in the wrong direction. As the saying goes – past success does not guarantee future gains. (or something like that).

Digressing a bit, as this is a topic that’s always on my mind. I believe you are one of those people who have benefited from the effects of globalization. I did as well. But if you look around you, there are many who don’t. I’m not just referring to the very lowly educated. Even among the poly grads, their jobs can be done much cheaper by people from China and India. These are the people who still make up the bulk of our population. These are the people which the statistics of high GDP growth do not reflect. These are the people who will not make more than 2k every month, for a long time. How do you think the government is doing to help?

Lastly, I hate to say this, but when you post a comment saying people are myopic and to tell them to count their blessings, it is inevitable that people will be offended… whether you are from YPAP or not.

aiyoyo

think back, last time in the 80s, life not so many pressure..

last time cars not so x, no gantrys, flats not so x etc..

aiyoyo as we PROGRESS, wa life getting tougher & tougher & tougher

so tough until breathe also a bit tough..

not sure if you guys do feel same?

aiyoyo

Hi Zefly
I appreciate your intention to dispute the issue of governance. However, your comparison of today vis a vis twenty years ago is not an apple-apple assessment. Twenty years ago, there were no mobile phones, no internet, no air-conditioned foodcourts, buses, MRTs, megamarts, etc. You can’t compare what people could purchase then and now. What is a decent family income today? Think beyond, if you can.

When you say “we should not let past gratitude get in the way of pointing out when things are going in the wrong direction”, I hope you mean that we must never let the past direct our future. Because, that is precisely and exactly what I am trying to say. What has happened before is not the formula for the future; the denominator of the world’s growth engine has changed. If you don’t know what drives the world, you’re way behind. And I think, after I read your comments, you might actually know, unless I am mistaken.

I hate to disappoint you but I did not benefit from globalization. I hate to dispute you, but its because of over exposure to global risks that I am personally grappling to ensure the survival of both business and expansion opportunities. Educated or not, everyone is exposed to the vagaries of global economic downturns, no one is spared, if you are wondering.

The government is doing everything it can to help, and receptiveness, a paradigm mindset shift and a moving away of dependency on the government is needed for real independence to reign.

Why do all of you keep associating my views from the YPAP? I hope that my views can be perceived as a personal one and not that of the YPAP’s. If you do not accept personal views, I am most disappointed at the isolative and unwelcoming manner for this engagement that I thought was meant to be mutually sincere and honest from the start.

Dear Wei

When did I ever say I was commenting for the YPAP? I am amused at what you say because I am not a politician. Also, I am curious and don’t know why you guys keep thinking I am speaking on behalf of the YPAP, is this site an anti-PAP one, that I should be so watchful of what I can or cannot say? I thought you guys welcome inclusive and democratic comments, unless I am wrong?!

Hi Roots, what actually are you trying to say?

Dear AhXing

Before you make judgments, you might wish to think about the “elite” who has laid their lives before you, FOR you. And then, you will come to realize and think about the ivory tower, if it even exists. Choose your words carefully.

to olivia
“On matters of Tone
How come you are so easily offended? My tone reflects who I am and your comment seems to me to be one that smacks of character assassination. As a manner of speech, I intended to spur in-depth discussion, and draw insights as precious such as yours. You might have misunderstood my intentions. ”

i think you started character assassination here. let me “refresh” your short/long memory.
“With all your intelligence, I’m quite surprised you say “all that Singaporeans seem to be doing these past years is swallowing bitter stuff” which is rather myopic. ”
“As I said earlier, the bitterpill, as the wise will understand, is a remedy. Or perhaps you are not so deep?”

are you going to say your goldfish typed the following? do you stand by what you say? if you do, how would zheng xi’s remark qualify as character assassination while yours isn’t?

also, you really should stop asking people to count their blessings or reminding them to. if they want to , they would. if they don’t want to, they wouldn’t no matter what you say. attempting to ask people to count their blessings, especially from someone who speaks so arrogantly. is simply provocative. and since you chose to be provocative, our netizens have replied you with the very same provocative tone you showed, in the name of “inclusive and democratic” comments.

”
Perhaps, on issues of benchmark, I have travelled to cities from Europe to US and Asia to know what I am talking about. If you feel otherwise, I respect your opinion.”

since you are so widely travelled and oh so wise about the entire world, why choose those asean countries to compare? why not use those countries you travelled to in Europe and USA and other parts of Asia to compare? i think you missed out on zhengxi’s point altogether.

thanks for your “insightful” comments. at least i understand more about what YOU think. in the name of “inclusive and democratic” free speech, you are free to continue your provocative tone if they reflect who you are. netizens are free to reply with the same tone too, whether they are like this or not. you don’t like it? then read other websites.

Hi Elaina,

Well I got lots to say, but I’ll be succinct.

“I appreciate your intention to dispute the issue of governance. However, your comparison of today vis a vis twenty years ago is not an apple-apple assessment. Twenty years ago, there were no mobile phones, no internet, no air-conditioned foodcourts, buses, MRTs, megamarts, etc. You can’t compare what people could purchase then and now.”

I can’t see why when comparisons like that are made, the tendency is to compare things in terms of material gains, purchasing power and technological improvements. These things may make our lives easier, but do they make it better? When wage increment fails to match price increment, doesn’t that mean that the purchasing power of the person is actually less?

” What is a decent family income today? Think beyond, if you can.”

Answer it first if you can. Since you are an employer just like me, you must’ve been wondering too how you can keep your people profitable and pay them enough to be able to have a future.

“When you say “we should not let past gratitude get in the way of pointing out when things are going in the wrong direction”, I hope you mean that we must never let the past direct our future.”

No, i meant we must not mistake our current leaders to be like our past leaders.

“What has happened before is not the formula for the future; the denominator of the world’s growth engine has changed. If you don’t know what drives the world, you’re way behind.”

More on that later.

“The government is doing everything it can to help, and receptiveness, a paradigm mindset shift and a moving away of dependency on the government is needed for real independence to reign.”

I’m bad at remembering quotes but I remember reading somewhere that one of the role of government is to act as a negotiator of the unfair distribution of wealth that being in a capitalistic society brings. In Obama’s words ’spread the wealth more evenly’.

I am not speaking as someone who needs (and hopefully never will) government sponsorship in my business. But there are people who do need some assistance and dependance on the government. A government that believes that anyone can survive on slightly more than $300 a month’s worth of assistance does appear to be strangely out of touch. Now you may say that it is up to us citizens to volunteer to help these people and what not, but that’s besides the point of this discussion.

“I am most disappointed at the isolative and unwelcoming manner for this engagement that I thought was meant to be mutually sincere and honest from the start.”

Elaina, I cannot speak for everyone here, but I believe most people here are a lot more civil than in many other blogs. You should try posting in SDP website lol. We always wish that people can be as rational or open to disagreements as us, but in the online world, you will get people who shout you down.

And. since you run a business and must have experience in dealing with clients and employees, you might know that telling people to ‘count their blessings’ especially when their views already differ from yours is a recipe for less-than-friendly remarks.

Secondly, you can’t really fault people for associating you with the PAP, when your tone of voice is similar. And lest you think it’s only the anti-PAP gang who are too sensitive, let me tell you that even my parents’ generation are having quite enough of being told to be grateful.

Ok, as for the issue of governance and globalization, and public perception. I’ll be brief, and would be nice if you could answer the questions, some of which I had posed earlier on-

a) Is the GST hike necessary? Is it achieving the aims it supposedly fulfils, which is that it is ‘full of love and compassion’ for the poorer folks?

b) Understandably, the ill-effects of globalization is not something any country can contain. And this is really the time that people and government work together as one. The government is always asking us to stand with them to tide ‘us’ through this crisis, and that crisis… and many times, we did. But how do you think the general populace would feel if the next thing they know, the government is telling us they deserve their world class pay? Now before you start saying that we are all being irrational and look at the bigger picture etc etc, maybe it is time to see that the government has failed to see that many years of partisan politics, siencing critics who ask the real questions, and talking down to people has in effect created a population not so prepared to stand with the government.

I daresay that Singaporeans by and large are prepared to swallow the ‘bitter pill’, but it is time for our world class leaders to apply the first and most basic lessons of leadership – lead by example.

I do not doubt the government believes it is doing all it can to help. But perhaps it should start to respect the people more. It should start recognising that it doesn’t have a monolopy of ideas on what’s best for our country. And it could start by being more humble and more accountable for the mistakes it makes.

c) well.. I’m sleepy. So C will have to wait.

Elaina Chong calls herself “princess”?????

Oh. My. GAWD.

Elaine Chong: “What has happened before is not the formula for the future; the denominator of the world’s growth engine has changed. If you don’t know what drives the world, you’re way behind.”

Staying Together, Moving Ahead, anyone?

Such arrogance. Reminds me of your masters.

gorilla voice,

don’t be rude to ms princess chong please, lest she says you try to character assassinate her, or say that you are anti-PAP or you are not deep or anything.

thanks, all in the name of inclusive and democratic free speech.

Elaina,

I’m not sure your original tone achieved your intent of spurring ‘in-depth discussion’ on the issue at hand.

I am also unsure of what you mean by saying that my comment “pluralized ” the issue. If you mean “polarized” then ok, I do agree I was providing the opposite reaction to what I perceived as high-handedness from your part.

Unfortunately, this high handedness is a tone that I’m particularly aggravated by having heard it in the press very often coming from the mouth of Ministers and MPs of the PAP.

I particularly take offense at your comment “you might wish to think about the “elite” who has laid their lives before you, FOR you”. I will give credit where it is due but I certainly don’t believe that any founders of even the PAP deserve the martydom you seem to be accrediting to them.

As for these views being your personal ones, it is here where I will have to offer you an apology for attributing your personal opinions to your party affiliations. I recognize that while they might be very similar, that is probably the reason you joined the YPAP in the first place, and I should give you due credit for defending your point of view.

But the beauty of open discussion is that while it might often be sharp, it is the engagement of minds and the battle of ideas that should triumph, not the sharpness of tone. Striking the balance of disagreeing without being disagreeable is hard, but I do not think it is impossible.

Hence, I’d like to invite you to pen a piece for TOC sometime, putting your opinions up for debate and discussion.

I will be one of those likely to disagree with you and engage you on the other side of the debate, but I will respect your right to put those views forward and am even willing to offer you a platform to do so.

As you have seen from some comments defending you, pro-PAP netizens may be in the minority on TOC, but they do exist. If you want to widen that space, you will have to stake your claim in the battle of ideas. I am sure that those who oppose the work of the government and feel it can be improved are ready.

zhengxi,

that’s gracious of you. however, i think mainstream media has offered PAP a HUGE space and platform to leverage upon. i don’t think the alternative media needs to or shoud offer them more space than they really need.

they want their ideas to be heard? just go to the ST. i believe readers came here to read something refreshing, something different. not something that can be gotten from the ST, much less elitist points of views. not necessarily anti-PAP, but definitely far from govt rubbish. ST has more than enough space for PAP to push their arguments.

me,

I do agree with you especially on the position of the MSM. The gross imbalance in the playing field is exacerbated by the lack of critical letters that get through to the Forum pages, so negative feedback on slanted reports or pro-government commentary does not get much airtime.

However, I think that’s whereTOC can make a postive distinction. Our readers can debunk the views we disagree with through the comment boxes, and let sensible and rational readers be the judge.

I’d prefer to debate views I disagree with, rather than feel angry and helpless at seeing them given free airtime on another platform, and then being reduced to creating a pressure valve for an equally angry opposite reaction on my own platform.

To be fair, writing angrily is easier and I personally indulge in such venting sometimes. It’s actually hard work winning arguments on a level playing field, but much more fulfilling when you do.

I think if we want to see our country as a whole evolve a culture of people with strong views who are not arrogant, opinionated but not bigoted, it needs to start somewhere. I’d like to see that taking shape here.

Slightly out of topic…(okay very)…but check this out

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Lee-Kuan-Yew/21930037394?ref=mf

I’d like to see some TOCers respond on that FB page haha.

“To begin with, I have made my personal comments. I am curious why you bring in the PAP? I believe I have a right to make a personal comment and on what basis do you say I speak on behalf of the party? Unless I don’t?”

Isn’t it strange that she is asking such a quesiton ? Did she not know that whether she like or not, she is the representative of the voice of the PAP party because she is dimmed as future leader of the ruling pary ? It is not what she says anymore, it is what her master says that important. Her master says when Singaporean vote for MP, it means voting for PAP, in other words, MP=PAP, and which means PAP Leaders represent PAP. So who is she to say that she can make her personal political comment without association to PAP ? When she join the PAP, she should know that before, doesn’t she ? That she represents the voice of PAP.

“Hence, Mr Lee argued, in Singapore voters knew that they were voting for a party and a government when they went to the polls, not just an MP. ”
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/09/a-question-of-representation/

The worst thing that such a leader of incompassionate and insensitive nature can even be recruited and eventually work behind the protectionism of a regime that lack transparency and accountability, what could be worse ? No wonder people like Zheng Xi and many are feeling angry.

Yes, like what commenters says here. She need to check herself and ask why she even join the party in the first place. Can the PAP party able to discern what is right and what is wrong, let alone she ?

i am tired of pple complaining that the oppo have not come up with viable alternatives.

please, let me count the reasons why the oppo have not “done” that:

1. what do these critics mean by “viable alternatives”?

Any alternatives to GST increase (to help the poor), increase the already astronomical salaries of the president (a symbolic head some more)/pm/sm/mm, building casinos, allowing minibonds etc etc seem pretty good to me.

2. thanks to an opaque govt, these oppo do not have access to vital statistics. just ask Leong Sze Hian. so how to analysis and propose statistic-backed up proposal?

3. lest we forget, the oppos are NOT paid millions and this is not their job. so even if they can come up with a proposal that the govt eventually adopts, does it mean we should pay them $$$$ too?

please, i think the root of decision is clear. do you like what you have now? if not, if you don’t do something differently now, things will never change. don’t leave it to pple to change within!

Change begins with you & me. If you want to see a change, be the change. We need our voices to be heard. That’s why we need change in leadership!

Thanks all for the comments here and I can sense some fire smoke flying around.

For TOC to advance it’s objective of being a top socio-political site, it has to start attracting people of diverse views and yet gracious enough to allow them in without being subjected to bombardment.

If Elaina is allied towards the ruling party so be it. Why shot her down?

TOC has so far attracted many anti-establishement netizens. This is not surprising as there is no outlet for us to vent out. So many take it to the net space rather than the streets in demonstration like the Thais.

If we want a neutral and solid site we should allow people of diverse views to come in and share comfortably – yet not subjected to fiery rebuke for the stand that we have make regardless of our political alliance.

I cried when I heard Mr Obama’s victory speech last month. One poignant part of the speech struck me: “For those who have not voted for me, I will still be your President”.It spoke volume of his grace and love for his people.

This was so different from what our ruling party has all along done. They threatened our opposition voters. if you voted for the opposition, your estate will be in ruins and your valuation will drop because the govt coffers will be limited to your estates for any upgrading project. Do we want to copy their ethics here?

Do we want to do that to our own people who hold divergent views from ours? Do we criticise everyone who is prior-PAP in their alligance? For all citizens who are either pro or anti-establishment, we are still all loyal Singaporeans and we all love our country too much. PAP or opposition camps alike.

Can we embrace and still welcome those who are not in the same political camp as us?

We will really be special people if we can adhere to this principle of mutual respect towards our own kind.

Hello FeedMeToTheFish uncle, love your blog!! You said,

He may even remind you that things happening in Bangkok and Mumbai will not happen in SIngapore because of their exorbitant talents.

And I add,

I think they better dont shot their mouth off too soon. If the world is going at such a rate, crazy things might really happen; just hope I am wrong. I just hope that they really sit down & start doing something good for a change. I dont fault them for losing money in various investments, I guess you win some & lose some every other day, but it seems like it’s getting out of hand & everytime they are just cant stop losing; it’s like a habit for them!! Shouldnt you make or break even sometimes? Even on the cruise, you hear people make & lose, but not always getting taken to the cleaners all the time!! Losing is one thing, the other I cant sand is how they just ignore these things & move on; I could never be able to face the people & probably just quit or leave the country & go hide somewhere but not them!!

Remember they also said things like Golden Years, Swiss Standard of Living & rubbish like that? It didnt happen as far as I could remember or I am just too small a number to feel the effects? Thing is, we are paying like the Swiss & perhaps the Golden Years are for someone else. I am just getting tired, just like you. In my 40years, I have only voted once & that was for the late Mr Ong as president!! Believe me, I dont even know how the polling paper looks like or the face of my MP except on some giant poster of him with some kids in some RC event wishing me a Happy CNY!

Elaina Olivia Chong,
the citizen do not need the cure (cure like meet-the-people session, progress package, rebate, carrot all these stuff) if prevention (preventing GST hike, price hike) has happened. Ask yourself if you are the tool for Cure or tool for prevention ? If you are tool for prevention, you will fight hard to prevent unnecessary policies to place on citizen. Unfortunately, I see most of PAP leaders are a tool for Cure. That is to pacifiy the citizen after adverse policies pass through. Now do you call this a world-class leadership ?

“Because, that is precisely and exactly what I am trying to say. What has happened before is not the formula for the future; the denominator of the world’s growth engine has changed.”

Well said !!! How about the denominator of the governing human factor in the good party that you happen to be a small part of it. They do give us the impression that they are trying to bath in their past achievements / glory which they are not too tired to emphasize once in awhile in our beloved MSM.

What happened before is not the formula for the future, yes yes yes. And you seem comfortable with comparatives on what has been achieved in the ASEAN countries vis-a-vis Singapore. You do seem to us that are a master of twisting here and there.

“Educated or not, everyone is exposed to the vagaries of global economic downturns, no one is spared, if you are wondering.”

Yes, yes, yes. Well, one thing is different. Your group of beloved friends sure know how to hedge against these vagaries as far as they are concerned. If you know what I mean. Think beyond, if you can.

Bitter pills with sugar coating. This PAP govt sure knows how to use a good thing when it sees one. Very much like the M&M sugar-coated chocolate sweets.

Since the big Liar himself had previously proclaimed that nothing is free, you guys better be careful that the bill will be sent to your doorsteps once the recessive climate shows any sign of recovery. When that day comes, there won’t be any pills to help you out.

Don’t this PAP govt get the message that we do not need handouts? Give us back our CPF money. 10%, 15% or 20% for this projected three-year downturn period. Let us help ourselves. Those of us who are earning more has a different lifestyle to those who earn less and their lifestyles dictate their spending habits.

A one-formula prescription for all does not help the higher wage earner more than the lower wage earners. No, I am not belittling the lower income earners. Just that those who have been earning more might have already committed themselves to things they would not have otherwise committed to in these times.
And these commitments still have to be addressed by them. As an example, how many of them are going under the credit-card crunch already?

The PAP govt has itself said that they are unsure how this financial climate will play out and here they are precribing pills to cure the illness. What if these pills still do not work?

To save itself all these headaches, just give us back part of our CPF money.
This way we can use it for whatever we need to use it for and thus injecting some vibrancy into the economy and GCT would be a happy man and can finally claim credit for issuing a ’spending-spree’ solution to our financial problem.

please be clear here. nobody would have shot her down if she did not character assassinate, speak so arrogantly or challenge people to fights, before claiming to be a victim.

if she was genuine about presenting her arguments, there is no need to make comments about “deep” or not or anything. if she thinks shes really so damn smart and that people here are against her, 4 words: read other websites then.

All I can say is…the pond is drying up fast and furious…it ’s getting harder and tougher for things to come around these days. From where I am standing everything these days seems to look like beluga caviar and I am even willing to work for food.

Why squeeze ordinary folk when they’re already squeezed? They’ve got reserves right, use it, that’s what reserves are for right; they’re like emergency sardines one keeps to tie you down when all the shops are closed during public holidays.

If this is not the time to use the reserves; then when is?

Leave the people with what little they have to turn the wheel of life; dont squeeze them anymore; if too much is taken; it just doesnt come around. Everything stops and when that happens, dont be surprise if “the falcon cannot hear the falconer.”

This is common sense or least it should be

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

94) Gilbert Goh

Hi Gilbert,
I have to disagree with some of your comments.

For TOC to advance it’s objective of being a top socio-political site, it has to start attracting people of diverse views and yet gracious enough to allow them in without being subjected to bombardment.

I do not see TOC running anyone down in this forum. I do see a lot of comments that rebuke Eliana for being PAP inclined. I also do not see the need for TOC to defend itself when called to do so. It gives out thought-provoking articles to get people to discuss issues of the day. This is the greatest service TOC is currently providing to Singaporeans.

If Elaina is allied towards the ruling party so be it. Why shot her down?

Firstly, what TOC is, is an open secret. It has attracted a lot of commentators that are in opposite contrast to the MSM. What TOC will eventually become is very much up to the dictation of commentators that will be joining it in the future but for now it is either anti-PAP or pro-Singapore.

What I am trying to say is that for people like Elaina coming in from out of the blue, she cannot but expect the kind of comments she had contributed to be shot down. Anyone of us joining the various PAP platforms and start scolding the people there will also get a dressing down. So, she has to understand this and expect it here too. She cannot then try to play an angel when the arrows start heading her way and call the others ‘devils’.

For one who claims to be widely travelled and have seen enough to make comparisons it is really bewildering to see that she cannot even look beyond the fact that she has come onto a platform that she knows well sure, will not, first and foremost, have its majority subscribing to her ideas and comments. If this is not myopic, then I do not know what is.

If reading the postings by Joshua and Zheng Xi correctly, you will see that both are barking up a different tree from that of Elaina. It goes to show that the PAP is out of touch with the people. It also shows us clearly the reason why a one-party system will not work. How is Joshua or Zheng Xi going to effect any change within the PAP if the people making up the lower levels of these feedback bodies are so adamant in their beliefs of how good the PAP govt is.

Nothing we say is going to change anything because they are not open nor receptive to alternative views which are in stark contrast to what they hold dear. And she cannot claim to speak in her capacity as an individual without stating it outright at the beginning. Just like the three-kangaroo T-shirt guys. They have been associated with the SDP even though they do not belong to the party.

On the flip side, there is something to be happy about. TOC is attracting views from the mainstream and I sincerely hope it continues to do so. This does not mean that we have to constantly come to the defence of bloggers from the mainstream who drop in to make a point or two. So far, we have seen a few who comes in with guns blazing as if the PAP’s reputation needs protection from them. I wonder why. I am sure they do not need any caution from us to tread with care. They know the ground at TOC enough to know what to expect.

Finally, for the majority of anti-PAP postings, well, it has to be. We have to be real and allow anyone who has anything to say, to say it in all honesty – no sugar-coating needed.

This is the beauty of online discussion.

There will always be factors out there that will cause the economy to decline. It’s ok for those that are born before the 80s or 90s as we have gone thru’ real hardship. i’m just wondering what is going to happen to those younger generations. Alot of them are so spoilt! Does the govt actually think they can swallow bitter pills?

Good Afternoon all,

“Elaina coming in from out of the blue, she cannot but expect the kind of comments she had contributed to be shot down…………She cannot then try to play an angel when the arrows start heading her way and call the others ‘devils’.”

Yes, I agree completely with Gemami’s statement in 101. Everyone should be free to state their case in a public square such as TOC, but they must FIRST be able to defend their view rationally – and there is a big difference between being rude and outright obnoxious and robust and earnest – the former is inexcusable; but the latter is part and parcel of rational discourse – you cannot make eggs without breaking them.

One thing that I have noticed about this ypap folk is they never ever write with the mission to persuade or influence as much as to curry favor with their superiors to come across as loyal, useful or purposeful. That’s to say when they post something online, 80% of their mentality is structured in the such a way where they will always say, “I hope some grass root leader reads reads what I am writing and he will take me under his wing.” The other 20% is spend on wondering how to get their bosses to read what they have written online.

Wonder no more. The pattern is the same on every single occasion.

That’s the problem when a group of people become so terminally complacent and supine – they never ever need to learn how to fight; so their skill-at-arms corrodes and they think that everyone owes them a living.

I could be wrong of course, but I really don’t think so, as I’ve taken a lot of effort to try to understand them and till today they con’t to confound me no end – all I know is they are NOT interest in meaningful dialogue or even tri-logue – to really do that, one needs to first seek to UNDERSTAND not only the point advanced, but if possible the counter point as well – that requires imagination and complacent people never ever see the need for that, they just assume that all of us should eat cake.

UNDERSTANDING is key – and it is not so different from a commander taking a sweep of the terrain and landscape when he decides to position his army, but with this people judging from the way they regularly make the charge of the light brigade look like a sensible military enterprise – one really has to wonder; how is it possible for someone to get it so wrong all the time?

What’s the probability of that?

Now that is the part that really defies all logic – I cannot understand. I want to believe. Really, I too, but as I said, I cannot, can you imagine how far they can go as a force in the virtual; if only they bothered to developed the skill-at-arms? If they had bothered to build up core competencies online and say develop 3 liaison officers; all their problems online would come to and end very soon.

Alas, that’s the thing abt complacent people; the only tool they know is the hammer; is it such a wonder the world is all nails?

“When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder’d. ”

And I wonder…..why?

It is time for my monday conference call now. Have a great day.

Thx

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Very simple…

Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me

Don’t think a lot of Singaporeans will take this bitter pill much longer when all the good stuff is kept for themselves (just our perception only but perception is everything in human psychology)

can we change for another PM after LKY is done for?

“For TOC to advance it’s objective of being a top socio-political site, it has to start attracting people of diverse views and yet gracious enough to allow them in without being subjected to bombardment.”

This is precisely what TOC is doing and this is the very reason why certain people of other various are here to contribute. To be fair like how most of us have been treated in terms of different views in respect to big brother, surely they (for those still hoping to try their luck even in the glaring presence of facts to the contrary) do not expect to be treated with kids gloves.

Of course, they may wear off if they do not have the stamina to sustain this long discourse, some of which is the same rehash of past pointers. It may be the same old tired rehash for old players, but they are always treated as fresh ‘gems’ for those new entrants to this site.

At least, contributors here are not being blocked from putting down their views unless it is extremely rude, vulgar and obscene. So much better here than our own MSM.

I noticed that in general, PAP supporter and employee have actively participated in online forum in singapore. They’ve been trying thier best to correct some misperception singapore netizen holds against the government.

Hi thanks all for the comments on what I have wrote earlier.

Perhaps I need to clarify myself abit here:

1. Treat all views – whether pro or anti-establishment , with respect. Of course, by posting our comments, we are being subjected to questioning and reasoning. Hopefully, those who are “bombarded” do not get turned off, but I doubt so seeing the majority of views here are anti-establishment here versus pro-establishment’s. In fact, some may follow the crowd – as most Singaporeans do, and inevitably post views that are against their conscience. The key thing here is acceptance and sometimes grace. A few of my friends came in only once as they felt that most of the comments are skewed and do not offer much solutions to the problems. We just blasted away and some people may not like the tone and texture of the comments. Generally, most comments are also mono-syllabic.

2. Following the comments above against Elaina, why fight so hard to win an argument? A few of us countered her some I felt too harshly. I wondered if she will come in again after this round of bombardment. Let’s hope she is make of firmer stuff. We should instead treat her with respect and more so for her views however divergent it may be. If the site is more neutral in tone I beleiev we will attract more netzsens in here and even politicians. We are all make differently and love is the key here. My only big desire is for MPs to frequent this site like YPAP so that views can be exchanged graciously.

3. I wonder if anyone will say something nice about the govt for once? We ought to be impartial on how we judge our authorities. They have done quite alot of bad stuff lately but they have also done well in other things. I am glad that Andrew wrote something on the reduction on civil servant’s pay in a nice way. Of course, some still feel that their pay is way high which I agreed. We ought to treat white as white and black as black here.

As Singapore progresses, we need a population that is brave and gracious exhibiting impartiality on how we do things here.

“107) sien meng on December 1st, 2008 4.02 pm
They’ve been trying thier best to correct some misperception singapore netizen holds against the government.”

Mispeception ? I thought they have been doing so (trying to correct) since 9th Aug 1965. Do not tell me they still have not finished their job yet.

Some of us here are even older than Singapore (since 9th Aug 1965) itself and have learned some hard lessons late in life. And they still want to reeducate us. Are they nuts ? Ask them to wait long long lah.

“The key thing here is acceptance and sometimes grace. A few of my friends came in only once as they felt that most of the comments are skewed and do not offer much solutions to the problems.”

So do your learned friends have anything to offer also, real solutions which we can identify with.

If your friends need unskewed stuff, probably they need to go P65 or some sites over the other side so that they can get re-skewed correctly on balance.

“Following the comments above against Elaina, why fight so hard to win an argument?”

Why fight so hard ??? We are arguing with mere words only. You should be asking the other side why they fight so hard to maintain power (absolute ??? Perhaps not, we have 2 oppo.). These are no words, they are actions implemented to skew the playing field. You need to wake up, my friend.

“If the site is more neutral in tone I beleiev we will attract more netzsens in here and even politicians.”

What neutraility ?? Everyone has a position to take. Your very choice of words in itself is the exercise of controlled judgement / partiality even though one may like to believe that he possesses the highly treasured independent mind.

” I wonder if anyone will say something nice about the govt for once?”

For once, I can agree with you. I am looking forward to their distribution of some ang-pow in this coming budget session.

I do not know Ms Elaine Chong or Mr SY Chua who wrote to ST about Mr Tan Kin Lian, so I cannot claim to understand their motivation or reason for the tone of their comments. However, one thing is clear: Since following TOC from its infancy as a reader, I can testify that TOC is an unbiased forum that encourages an open exchange of ideas, comments and dialogue. There are views from pro- and anti-PAP commentators, though proportionately more of the latter. If because of this, TOC, contributors and/or commentators are labelled as anti-PAP, then I would say this is uncalled-for and regrettably untrue.

Let’s ask ourselves honestly, has the ruling party engaged the public actively in dialogue and feedback over current affairs affecting Singapore? Hardly. The mainstream media, instead of helping to facilitate a healthy exchange of views and ideas, has more often than not, been perceived as a mouthpiece of the PAP, airing mainly letters, interviews and commentaries that echo the official stand of the PAP on relevant matters. Is it therefore strange to find the web, not just TOC alone, becoming platforms for the public to air views and suggestions which may not be to the PAP’s liking?

If I were a serious politician, I would glean the TOC postings and comments to understand better the gripes of the man in the street. There’s no smoke without fire, and there are no gripes without underlying reasons. Singaporeans, being a relatively conservative lot of people, are not prone to complaining if things are bearable, even though some may curse under their breath.

When GST was first introduced, people were skeptical, but since it was without precedence in Singapore, many, including me, were open to giving it a shot as we do know it will contribute to much-needed fiscal revenues for the betterment of Singapore. Before the most recent increase to 7%, there was alot of objection because of the general economic conditions then, but the Govt turned a deaf ear to those, and even now passionate pleas to reduce the GST rate in view of the global financial and economic crises have been flatly brushed aside.

The electricity tariff increase did not fare better. Many have questioned the need & timing to raise the tariff, and the answers from the authorities only led to more questions. Put simply, if the rationale for the increase and the need to peg tariffs to oil prices had come from the mouth of an opposition party instead, what would have been PAP’s response? Would PAP endorse it? Would it not ask why a nation that prides itself on being unique & intelligent, cannot come up with an equitable formula to peg the tariffs to gas prices instead? Would people have expressed the same views, if this had come from the opposition party instead of PAP?

Next, town council and sinking funds. Many netizens have meticulously computed figures based on what the ruling party has provided thus far, including those published on the town council websites, and asked legitimate, deep questions on the proportion of the sinking funds with respect to the purposes served by town councils and S&C Charges. Have these been answered? Did the esteemed ministry take this opportunity to review the size of the collections and usage, and ask hard questions about whether things should change going forward? No, instead all we hear are that it’s all aboveboard, people’s money had not been lost in those investments, be thankful, etc.

There are other issues like the IR decision, Mas Selamat escape & the confounding COI, minister pay adjustment (calling a reduction in variable bonus a pay cut is really creative, I must say), CPF Life, and losses from huge investments made by GIC and Temasek. All have been met with little or no engagement with the public as stakeholders of this nation. It is as if the Govt simply does not want to engage, or that it believes in just telling us what to expect. When commentators like Elaine and Chua come along, we hear more or less of the same, only that these peppered more liberally with sarcasm than a standard response from a Govt authority.

Like Gilbert, I won’t advocate shooting them down, even if they did sound like they are inviting a challenge. If they bring with them valid points, well, let’s respond to them objectively and even embrace them, if they are constructive. If not, don’t waste time writing to them, unless they have made disparaging and uncalled-for remarks, in which case they should learn to apologize and retract, as in any professional context, though I must say that these days, humility is a virtue long extinct, especially among the current national leaders. Explaining away or brushing aside seems to be in vogue. Is this a by-product of a meritocratic society that overly panders to the meritorious ones by rewarding them 20, 40 or 80 times the salary of the man in the street, perks aside? I believe the discerning readers of TOC can decide for themselves.

110)

I respect your views and most importantly accept you for who you are.

Take care my friend whoever you are.

Hi Gilbert,

I have problem agreeing with your clarification. You spoke of respecting individual’s view point (that I too advocate). But you surely know that respect is earned and not a given.

I disagree as well on your implying on setting condition on posting comments except moderation rules set by TOC to attract posters (referring to Ms. Elaina). Comments should come directly from your heart and how you feel about things. I believe matured people (whether you are first time visitor or a regular poster here) who are well exposed, well traveled, well read can differentiate fact from fabircations as well as make their own decision. “anti-establishment” or “pro-government” comments, are just perceptions and terms that individual construed it to be and should not be conditioned. There will always be diverse and differing views in almost any subject matters as each and every one of us holds different perspectives and values. In a public discourse in reality, things happen and events unfold as opinion change hand, it is as honest as it can get without dressing up. Pardon the pun, No Sugar-Coating is needed.

Yes, there are people who will say something nice about the government (well, at least I know I did before from time to time and I have seen some before too), but it is largerly depending on the issues in discourse. Do I expect everyone to agree when I pen something nice or bad about the government? Honesly no, because as much as I personally dislike to see so much “frivolous” ranting and felt is an overkill at times, but I respect it is an individual’s “choice” to ignore or react to it. If people are genuinely concerned of the issues raised and if they find it is worth their time to induce and instigate people to engage in a “rational” discourse and to convince others to accept their perception, I believe, that person will pen his/her view as a source of encouragement with support facts to drive homw their point, but again this is subjected to whether the receiving party will buy in the version presented. It is again back to an individual’s choice. We have enough of nannying and coercing experiences and we can do without it in TOC.

I must say that I too have friends who came in here once in a while and share with me that they find it diffcult to get engaged as they could only see “complains” and “bickering” about almost any article they read. My version of explanation to them is to ask them to give a thought as to why these posters feel that way? In another words, try or imagine what transpired in their mind when they pen their comment.

My ultimate point here to response to your goodwill and well intended advice (pardon me if I cannot keep it brief), it is an individual’s choice to pen their true sentiments regardless of how coarse the language they may choose to use (within the boundary of the moderating rules by TOC), and it is up to other individual to react. I believe individual posteer here in TOC have every right to reply or disregard without conditioned. There is an expression whenever “political issue” discourse is in play: “If you can’t stand the heat in the kitchen, get out”. No insult intended and you are not obligated to concur.

Gentlemen,

The issue is really like the tao of the 二胡 (erhu) string it too tight, it will snap; too loose and it will simply not play.

So what Gilbert is forwarding is right and so is observer (HK-SG) – I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between, so it is really a matter of degree and balance.

But what is important for us all to understand is conflict is something that should never be feared or even avoided. If I walk into a company and everyone tells me everything is good and they are the best in the world, I worry. I don’t even need to look at the books. I know in my bones. It just means somewhere in the system there are many gaping holes – its no good.

If people are not afraid to bring out problems – then I know I am in the company of men who can get things done. It’s good to go – so rather than propagating a fear of conflict; we should instead try to UNDERSTAND it, so that we can channel this force for good rather than bad. That simply means:

-People must ALWAYS be encouraged to think critically instead of just gobbling facts unquestioningly. (whether they are right or not is not important)

-They must also learn to take ownership of their thoughts. This can only force them to work through their beliefs and even winnow many of their assumptions to ensure the points are honed to deadly sharpness.

- Then they must allowed to defend their POV’s robustly and even vigorously in open combat. (this part is the most important part, bc if the webmaster doesn’t understand the tao of the erhu, its no good – it will simply not play, it will be like a sound of a broken guitar).

If 1,2 and 3 is wisely managed, skill-at-arms will develop very fast. I learnt all this from the brotherhood. They call this the “mai-ia” – it means balance or distance –this is how they train their space diplomats who manage a territory some 26,800 million times bigger than Singapore – what is mai-ia? When two opponents fight, a wise kendo master must be able to see beyond the blood and sweat; if he steps in too soon; the training of the exponent will always remain incomplete; he will never be able to pass through the mythical gate – its no good.

Any other way is just a lousy system. You see it is very simple conflict; if channeled properly is an opportunity to improve.
The medieval Europeans for example fought over everything from Copernican theory to such things as where is true magnetic north; in some cases; they even went to war, but look at the luminaries they produced; martin luther, Leonardo da vinci, Michelangelo, Newton and the list goes on and on.

The only people in Europe who didn’t shed one single drop of blood fighting bc they considered themselves above the fray; were the Swiss. They incidentally were also the father of the secret police; and if you fight they will put you in jail; you could say they were the most conflict adverse people on this planet. Even when Hitler came into power and the rest of Europe said “join us,” they the Swiss said, “this doesn’t involve us, we want nothing to do with this”; and pray tell; what was their single greatest invention to the human race?

The cuckoo clock……Yes, yes, yes.

Like I said, it is not good, it breeds complacency and complacent people can do nothing – absolutely nothing bc capable people will never ever join them.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Well written, singaporedaddy! It’s comforting to see so many Singaporeans are knowing what human rights is all about. & what fairness we are supposed to be dealt after all the hard work we put in. We’re all short-changed & we’re unhappy. There will be a day the current leadership system will fall. Right now, we’re under the reign of a tyrant. It’s disheartening. We can only hope for now… For a better tomorrow & a true life. To be paid what we richly deserve & to pay what we should, not more. & to lead a comfortable & fair life. A life where we can afford to do the things we really want.

Gilbert,
I agree with your stand. Cheers.

#113 Observer
“I must say that I too have friends who came in here once in a while and share with me that they find it diffcult to get engaged as they could only see “complains” and “bickering” about almost any article they read. My version of explanation to them is to ask them to give a thought as to why these posters feel that way? In another words, try or imagine what transpired in their mind when they pen their comment.”

I have similar sentiments as your friends. I find that for every insightful and enlightening post one has to wade through 5 others that are simply just plain rude/vulgar/sarcastic…

As for trying to imagine what transpired in their mind…I am inclined to feel that for SOME posters, they might be having a bad patch in life/having a rough time/etc. and needing an outlet to vent, who better to aim than the government? I am also inclined to think that for some, having been ‘repressed’ by MSM/whatever for so many years, having discovered TOC, they are finally allowed to express themselves more freely and are thus fairly ‘trigger happy’.

“My ultimate point here to response to your goodwill and well intended advice (pardon me if I cannot keep it brief), it is an individual’s choice to pen their true sentiments regardless of how coarse the language they may choose to use (within the boundary of the moderating rules by TOC), and it is up to other individual to react. I believe individual posteer here in TOC have every right to reply or disregard without conditioned. There is an expression whenever “political issue” discourse is in play: “If you can’t stand the heat in the kitchen, get out”. No insult intended and you are not obligated to concur.”"

This depends on what TOC wants to function as. If rants and flames are acceptable behaviour, then it is truly a ‘voice of the people’ in the purest form but then it’s role of being a place for healthy debate and exchange of socio political ideas may be compromised.

“As for trying to imagine what transpired in their mind…I am inclined to feel that for SOME posters, they might be having a bad patch in life/having a rough time/etc. and needing an outlet to vent, who better to aim than the government? I am also inclined to think that for some, having been ‘repressed’ by MSM/whatever for so many years, having discovered TOC, they are finally allowed to express themselves more freely and are thus fairly ‘trigger happy’.”

I am sorry, I think this a classical example of a stupid statement by a stupid person.

Can you roll with the punch?

SD

To be fair,

It is not easy being in gahment. I would disagree with those who think our leaders are greedy incompetent stupid etc etc. I would believe that those who come forward and serve do so with the intention and belief they could help. And it is usually quite a thankless task that money may not be able to compensate for. I find it very hard to believe (at least for our folks here) that those who want to be millionaires become politicians.

But then again, the people who serve in the Bush Administration also believed they were doing what they did for the good of America, yup even George W Bush himself.

So I believe it is our duty as citizens to make sure that our Gahmen doesn’t become one themselves.

We can of course, do the following-

a) Exercise the power of vote during GE. Those who can.
b) Recognize that once the ranting is done, it is time for some action. And, I know this might offend some, but let’s face it. Ranting and rebutting are fine, but it won’t get the powers-that-be to take us seriously. There are some who can argue well. There are some with a knack for interpreting data (if they are available lol). They are some here whose rich life experiences we’re only starting to see. And there are some who like to talk cock only. Like me. muahahahahahaaaaa.. It’s true that still the gahmen won’t hear us. Or if they do, they will make it look like they thought of it first. What to do. Asians mah. But as Gilbert sorta implies, there are two sides we are actually engaging – the pro-govs, and the neutrals, and those who stay disengaged because what they see in TOC is only a motley crew of ranters and ravers. We can wait for the gahment to stop treating us like children, or we can show them we are adults.
C) There is no C. Everytime I think of C i become sleepy.

Too many things to say. Too little patience to type them. See you at HLP on Saturday. Are we supposed to come in costume or something? Like Cosplay? Like Logicalman can wear spandex with an “L’ sign or something…. :)

“I have similar sentiments as your friends. I find that for every insightful and enlightening post one has to wade through 5 others that are simply just plain rude/vulgar/sarcastic…”

Then why bother to come here. Why not go to some sites where the reversal is true – where you will get “5 insightful and enlightening posts vs 1 which is just plain rude/vulgar/sarcastic.” Difficult to find right ? Perhaps you could direct us to such sites.

“This depends on what TOC wants to function as. If rants and flames are acceptable behaviour, then it is truly a ‘voice of the people’ in the purest form but then it’s role of being a place for healthy debate and exchange of socio political ideas may be compromised.”

May I know what your definition of healthy debate is ?

Some monotonous, sterile, polished & easy exchange done & paved easily for people like you to stroll through ?

There is a possibility that those more expressive, robust and colourful exchanges between student debaters may not even get through your ‘healthy’ filter.

What about the so-called baptism of fire that used to be mentioned by one senior leader of ours. What fire (smirk) ? I think you should sit in a air-con environment doing political MCQ on a computer where you can always refresh the whole test if you cannot make the mark.

“I find it very hard to believe (at least for our folks here) that those who want to be millionaires become politicians.”

I am not so sure abt that. I really think you need to tarry ho there. All I know is you claim to be the best in the world, then why isnt boeing aeroplane group, general motors, baker Mckenzie and johns hopkins making a bee line to hire you?

Can you even give me an answer, or maybe its more convenient not to hear my question?

You see in the business world – we just call it what it really is – water finding its datum – market forces.

Do you work. Do it well. Shut up and get results. If you dont pls go and commit suicide in one corner, that is really how I see things.

That is how I see politicians, basically they are just like food court managers.

One thing is clear, if you dont come down here and write your history; you cannot blame us for coming here to write it for you, I call this the free market enterprise.

Life is really like that – but come down here; we will give you no quarter; no cult of veneration, no adulation and it could be said that what you say has to simply stand the test of time.

And what do I call that?

Meritocracy.

I do not have time for complacent people – I need to go for another conference call.

singaporedaddy:

This is what I mean…

I, being politically apathetic for the past 19 years of my life, TRY to come to TOC to understand alternative viewpoints, and am shot down by your reverse elitism. You asked the question…I answered it…instead of telling me why you disagree, you call me stupid.

If I am so stupid, why don’t you enlighten me without name-calling?

singaporegiddy:

Another barbed remark. Why am I not surprised?

To answer your question, healthy debate, to me, is exchange of ideas, opinions in a rational and civilised manner. I’m all for passionate debate but not when there is no debate in the first place or maybe only 10% debate and 90% ranting, name calling, sarcasm and snide remarks.

Off the top of my head, I remember a poster poking fun at Ms. Elaina without bothering to address any of her points, without attempting to engage her on an intellectual level, and simply teased her about the name of her blog. Personally, I don’t think posts like that help in any way (maybe except provide comic relief to those who find such things funny…). I can remember numerous posts like those directed against posters who have suggested something different from what the widely accepted notions here are.

Both your replies to me show how unwelcoming this place is of anyone who isn’t as ‘garang’ as the standard TOCer.

“As for trying to imagine what transpired in their mind…I am inclined to feel that for SOME posters, they might be having a bad patch in life/having a rough time/etc. and needing an outlet to vent, who better to aim than the government? I am also inclined to think that for some, having been ‘repressed’ by MSM/whatever for so many years, having discovered TOC, they are finally allowed to express themselves more freely and are thus fairly ‘trigger happy’.”

Let me tell you why you are stupid and what you wrote is even more stupid.

First of all from what you’re implying from your statement above? the sum total of the net comprises of washouts? – well, I’ve got news for you buddy, you may just find the odd ceo or the scientist slumming down here – hows that?

I dont give a shit abt your personal 19 life struggle, just remember when you post something like this again, I have every right to go after you bc you are stupid and that is a stupid statement. And let me share with you why I believe it to be so.

Have you ever considered that the people who write what they do in the internet may be the most well read and discerning people who really know what’s actually happening around them?

Did it ever cross your mind that they could even be so savy that they are perhaps the last people who may be dumbed down by the apparatus of assimilation?

So here I have given the reasons why I think you are stupid to make a stupid statement.

You need to excuse me, I really need to go for my conference call, I have to save a company from chapter 11 and I need to hypnotize the german govt to do so.

Like I said, roll with the punch.

bye.

Hi all,

Maybe it would be good to list down the agenda that we would like our PAP govt to act on and improve on.

I would suggest the following

1) Medical care
2) Free education
3) Minimum salary pegged to the standard of living
4) Transparency on the usage of CPF for investments , if any
5) Welfare for the jobless
6) Reasonably priced public housing

singaporedaddy:

Thank you for your reply. To answer your question again…yes it has crossed my mind that not everyone here is a loose cannon.

Please kindly have a look at my original post if you can spare the time. Since when did I say that I felt ALL the posters here are “washouts”?

I said SOME in caps. Do you deny the possibility of SOME posters being like what I posted – Disgruntled, unhappy, needing an outlet to vent? My post was simply in reply to Observer’s observation (no pun intended) about his friends’ views on TOC.

Again, I am only concerned about SOME posters. I understand that there are many who post cogent and well thought out posts like Gilbert, Gemami and many more.

and…

“I dont give a shit abt your personal 19 life struggle, just remember when you post something like this again, I have every right to go after you bc you are stupid and that is a stupid statement. And let me share with you why I believe it to be so.”

Who’s on the high horse now?

122) chorus

Stay with us dude. Our views may and probably differ on some aspects, but i feel that if we want to have the right to criticize the gahmen, and expect them to listen, then we have to practice it at home first. Because if we can’t practice what we preach, then we are no better than the people whom we preach to.

Unfortunately in any online blogs etc, you will meet people who may not only disagree with your views, but also how you choose to disagree. Hope you dun get discouraged too easily as you being here shows that you are not as politically apathetic as you think.

I believe you are among the ‘disillusioned’ majority that TOC wants to engage.

(Damn TOC should start paying me …lol)

Do come down to HPL this Saturday.

124) Kunta Kinte on December 1st, 2008 9.30 pm

“I would suggest the following

1) Medical care ”

Just finished watching a program on Channel 8, about helping poor folks and stuff. Realized something. What is being done about the mentally unhealthy poor people in SG? I’m sure we are know that with proper psychiatric help, many mentally unhealthy people can be made to live productive ‘normal’ lives.

In SG, you pay about $100 for an hour of counselling. I guess it’s cheaper in IMH but i think only slightly, and your appt is only once every month or something.

I’ve had a friend who had post natal blues while staying in Australia and she practically gets free counselling every other week, hourly sessions. Maybe that’s why they get lower suicide rates?

Let’s keep this in mind on the Xmas wish list.

Cheerios

116) chorus

I believe TOC knows exactly what they represent and clearly is working hard to be a forum for alternative views and discourse for matters and issues that concerned Singaporeans. To this old man here, 2 years is a short history to pass judgment. That does not mean your point of view is discredited or disregarded. You have absolute Right as an individual to see otherwise. No policies, rules or governing system in this world can dictates any person’s thinking.

I do not think people are trigger happy and whether TOC allowed rants and flames as you have cited, I will leave it for individual to make their judgment. As far as I am concerned, I accept the fact that ranting is a natural ventilating outlet for people who felt betrayed or left out. I have said it here many times (quite stale now) that I am a staunched advocate of freedom of speech.

Freedom of speech comes with social responsibilities and citizenry must know that they have to take ownership of their views expressed. I believe if there is a cause there is a reason. I too believe in this world there are always people who likes ranting other than providing constructive views in an open discourse regardless whatever form of systems a nation adopts. I lived in the states for over five years to know it the hard way and learned to accept conflicting views and ranting where otherwise rational thinking people would think that is absurdity. As I have said, it is an individual’s choice to ignore, disregard or react.

Before I continue and to prevent being accused of old rhetoric bickering, I wished to clarify that age has nothing to do with the following statement I wish to make and being older does not necessary mean being wiser. I am still learning by each day from people that can be my grand kid.

I personally find that there are plenty of rooms for improvement in Singapore system and I have no doubt that the country is slowly opening up (so I thought) comparing to what my generation of fellow Singaporeans had experienced. However, we have a long way to go and if the current “A-team” who I have reservations (now it is more apparent, in particular those who clearly displayed their insensitive, arrogance and ignorance of our suffering fellow Singaporeans, you cannot help but think we are not only not progressing but slipping into being a nation risking being labeled a country that had no respect or disregard International Human Rights.

Internally, do you feel there is enough compassion shown to our fellow suffering Singaporeans? Yes, I agree government do not owe us all a living neither do I or we owe government a living. But I do know, in the name of democracy that we voted them in to serve the country, guard the country’s interest and more importantly to serve the people and guard the interest of its people as well. Do you agree? When you look around you, visit those who live in near poverty level, you cannot help but feel the pain for them and have to reflect, something must be wrong somewhere? Why? It is quite mind boggling to think that we are the highest per capita income country amongst our South East Asian neighbors (as our ministers love to make comparison whenever they speak of progress), and yet, in our home front, we have many untold stories of our fellow Singaporeans working their butts off to try to make ends meet and we have our very own “well-off” fellow Singaporeans frowning on these very people. Are they not human? Are their lives less precious than the well-off? These are our people, our fellow brothers and sisters. If Singaporeans do not help each other, who will? Let alone the excessive packages the ministers had accorded themselves. I have no problem with that if they have showed us their worth. The results are very telling indeed. Isn’t it? If I factor all these in, it is not hard for me to empathize with our less-fortunate and dire straits fellow brothers and sisters and the occasional ranting and flames are just.

How I wished I have the capability to write more eloquently and expressed in a way that in some ways do justice to shed encouragement to my fellow brothers and sisters that there are caring enough people around that are willing to lend them a listening ears for them to share their fear and anxiety. That is the least we can do as fellow citizen. Camaraderie and Compassions sometime is a better remedy to help fellow mates than monetary help. Purr people do have dignity too.

Coming back to what started all these discourse. Within a span of 2 weeks in this site, I have so far seen three posters (partner92, eiro and Elaina) that I am foreign to make such grand entrance but with less than impression alternative views or constructive criticism and to be honest I felt educated people or not, should learned to be humble. Respect yourself and learn to respect others. May be, youngsters or younger people (those under 40) are more edgy these days and it left me wonder whether our educational system had forego mannerism teachings or was it a by product of capitalism and progress. To announce your entrance in such provocative way will not only create an impression of your arrogance and tort, it is a reflection of your characteristic as a person. Whatever views expressed will be overshadowed by this. You can be an intelligent and straight As student, a highly paid executive, a business savvy person, but to be a very successful person or if you ever sort to have a place in the political arena or hope to be like by your peers, I think there are a lot of fine tuning and polishing needed in place. Anyway, these are just my two cents worth of wisdom to share with my three fellow young Singaporeans. No intention of imposing my views on you but I thought it is the least I can and should do as a fellow Singaporean.

OK chorus, you rolled well. Very well. I will retract what I said abt you being stupid etc.

You see, I was just trying to establish a point that I wrote in No: 114 singaporedaddy on December 1st, 2008 7.07 pm, the 1,2 and 3 part.

You put up a good fight / I respect that. I do. I am sorry, if I caused offence. Will you find the opportunity to oversee my slight? Will you please?

Now I really need to go for my conference call. Its started, this has to be my last post for the day.

bye

SD

kunta kinte, interesting wish list there. My top wishes are for our national leaders to lead by example, to be accountable and answerable to the people of Singapore, to be humble and ready to listen, and to be a truly open and consultative government as SM Goh promised years ago.

While we have topped the charts worldwide and boast one of the biggest SWFs in the world , many things are also falling apart in our society. You mentioned IMH. Students as young as lower primary are receiving treatment and counselling relating to mental health and emotional well-being. More and more families are living in tents at East Coast beach, to the extent that NParks staff don’t bother chasing them away any more. Many mature workers are finding it hard getting a permanent or contract job. Families struggle with escalating costs of living, debts and yes, high prices for HDB flats. Larger sums of CPF savings are locked away for longer periods of time. More marriages are falling apart while people are hesitant to get hitched or start a family.

There’s nothing to be proud of if Singapore stays this way. Any leader worth his salt will do well to look at society beyond the GDP and ask searching questions about what’s really good for the nation and what Singaporeans really want.

Andrew,

Perfect article. You just poke them on their head hard, esp PM! The gahmen should be ashamed of themselves.

FG

I can’t believe it that Elaina could write such a post. Tell me you are just ranting.
More money = More competency ?
I only see Competency in TaiJi, Shifting blame, screwing the little people when thing go wrong. Competency is not only about getting thing done, it is about responsibility and accountability too without which competency is nothing.

OH MY GOD ! Can she reveals to us who among the 82 of the PAP MPs who share the same mentality as her ?

She will a A+ by the PM.

From
http://youngpapblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/bill-gatesgeorge-sorosmother-theresa.html
http://www.thevoiddeck.org/index.php?itemid=277
Not only she get shot down here, she get show down in the above two sites.

“Bill Gates+George Soros+Mother Theresa – How Much $$
Posted by elaina olivia chong at 4:56 PM

Money is the proverbial carrot. No matter how many people put themselves on the moral high ground, Money still talks for most others. If you want to get a job done you can’t do well yourself, pay some one well to do it well. If you want to get a job superbly well done, pay superbly more. Similarly, if we want Singapore to stay on the “Best Of” world list for a lot of things, we jolly well got to pay top dollar for the best people who can keep us right up there.

I can’t see why some forumers in our local chatrooms are questioning Ministerial pay rises and pegging our Minister’s pay to those in other countries. Spore isn’t like many other economies like the States, Britain or even Hong Kong where their economies can still remain alive even if their politicians are not making the best decisions. Not only are these economies self sufficient, they have people resources – to the extent where Supply far Exceeds Demand for geniuses at the top.

In many of these first world nations (whose Ministers’ pays have been “pegged” to ours), their economic engines are matured and almost self-piloting. These governments have inherited the fruits of their political forefathers and are now able to concentrate on improving the social and non-economic welfares of its peoples and say, spend time to build international relations with countries like us.

This government put Singapore, a country with no resources, with no historical ties or allies to begin with, on the world map in less than half a century. But will this last forever?

It takes more than a few good men to make a tiny red dot like Singapore a shining star it is today. Not an easy feat, and is not a task that every man on the street can do. Only the very best in the 4-5million we have, can.

Everyday is a new challenge for Singapore to stay competitive and ahead of economies thousands of times our size. If Ministers at the top stop what their doing; or aren’t clever enough to devise policies to keep us ahead of the global league, our economy will crumble. There’s no two ways about it. Some one has got to do it and able to do it very well.

Today, we have the PAP with a number of good men. Will we have the same people tomorrow and always? I’m not sure. I find it rather myopic and sadly presumptuous for so many of these forumers to assume that Singapore is forever going to be where it is, and that we will forever have exceptional geniuses willing to throw their lives to keep Singapore on its feet.

How many of our capable Singaporeans are willing to turn away high paying expatriate positions overseas? And choose instead, to stay home in Singapore, hold arms to protect and ensure the economic comforts for our families and posterity?

One of the ways and I’m not saying it is the only way, is to pay for them and pay them very well . To help keep them in Singapore, attract them into civil service or the PAP where they will join the “economic militia” and keep the Singapore flag flying high for a very long time

The life of a Minister is not attractive. How many are willing to sacrifice every evening either at Meet the People Sessions, chairing Review Committees and carrying another baby in a HDB kopitiam even on precious weekends?

A platoon with the acumen of Bill Gates, risk appetite of George Soros and the heart of Mother Theresa, I would think. And the compensation? Priceless. Haven’t we all heard this all too often, “Pay Peanuts Get Monkeys”.

All that matters to me is for Singapore to stay ahead of the game becuase I choose to stay here. We sorely need more than a few Good Men to continue serving at the top so that our economy will continue its bull run. With a flourishing economy, Ministerial pay increments will pale in comparison to the prosperities and fortunes Singapore will be able to bring to its people. Because then, the man on their street will get his pay raise too.”

Not interested in this whole discussion about Elaina but would like to give my impression of her and all her other pro-government colleagues.

I think it’s fine to give your perspectives in any cyberspace. Problem is, these people tend to provoke immense dislike from others by their sheer arrogant and shallow defence of their stand. Most of them exhibit a lack in depth of understanding and lack of critical thinking skills. Most regurgitate from ST.

If htey are PAP’s idea of reaching out to us to connect, I think I am more worried about Singapore and more determined to vote against the ruling party.

Perhaps, their mission is just to stir up emotions and split netizens into different camps. Divide and conquer.

If so, this is really naive of the government. Very tragic for us. If Singaporeans are mature enough to want to engage the government, the least it should not do is to either keep total silence (like in the minibond or the TC saga) or send out trolls like these YPAP members.

Hi singaporedaddy and chorus,

In fairness, I must agree with chorus on the ’stupid statement’ issue. I say this because I am an example of one who had fallen into the category described by chorus. I am glad that singaporedaddy has shown us how to be gracious with his mature act in conceding that he had mis-read or misunderstood chorus’s post. We can all learn from this as we too grow in maturity while discussing issues in public forums.

Now, why I agree with chorus. When I entered TOC, I was trigger happy too. It felt so good to finally stumble onto a site where I can practically vent my pent-up frustrations and anger and, yes; with most of it aimed at the government. I have since ‘moved on’ because that was something I needed to do and I must admit that occassionally I will still be doing that bit of it to relieve what I cannot aptly put into words.

This is why I have always called for a stay-of-execution regards to our fellow posters who rant and rave seemingly for no comprehensible reasons. One does not need a reason to rant in blogosphere. This we have to realise.

Now for the ‘1 in 5′ subject. All I can say is that when one enters a blogsite it is plain stupidity (it is) to expect to see & hear all that you want to see & hear 5 times out of 5. You’re lucky if you get 1 out of 5 even. Like what Observer (SG-HK) has correctly mentioned; it is up to the individual to make his own judgement.

I remembered that I had wanted TOC to set some guidelines and ob parameters some time back and it was Observer (SG-HK) who made me see the reasons why this should not be done. I have since agreed with him and this is why I am hoping that cyber-friends like Gilbert will also see that this is not a good direction to take.

We are now getting some participation from mainstream voices and so far, these voices have made their entrances in very loud, arrogant and demeaning fashion. We respect their choices of entries but this does not mean we have to accept them. We have to retain our rights to rebut, rebuke and return them to their proper places. This, they have to understand.

An example was panther92. Being young, it was good of him to admit that his entrance to one of the thread had set the negative environment in which he found himself struggling to rectify.

Another is Elaina which I have already addressed earlier and many have also done the same.

Are we trying to chase them away? Definitely not. Some have entered into more serious discussions with fellow bloggers after the initial hoo-haas. This is good but it does not mean that the gongs and cymbals have to be kept away for good. They are as necessary as the participants in this sort of cyber-coffeeshop.

Let us then not set any ob markers than the usual language, race and religious ones. Let us allow TOC to evolve and not to nitpick on them whenever there is a loud entry by a newbie.

More importantly, let them defend themselves by their writings. Let them discern for themselves what TOC is all about. TOC must not change for any individual or groups of individuals.

This is the beauty of TOC which has been able to continue to attract so many participants in these past two short years.

aiyoyo

not sure why I no get reply from TOC (when I email days back)..

aiyoyo

Dear Singaporedaddy of the brotherhood of nod

“Any other way is just a lousy system. You see it is very simple, CONFLICT; if channeled properly is an opportunity to improve.
The medieval Europeans for example fought over everything from Copernican theory to such things as where is true magnetic north; in some cases; they even went to war, but look at the luminaries they produced; martin luther, Leonardo da vinci, Michelangelo, Newton and the list goes on and on.

The only people in Europe who didn’t shed one single drop of blood fighting bc they considered themselves above the fray; were the Swiss. They incidentally were also the father of the secret police; and if you fight they will put you in jail; you could say they were the most conflict adverse people on this planet. Even when Hitler came into power and the rest of Europe said “join us,” they the Swiss said, “this doesn’t involve us, we want nothing to do with this”; and pray tell; what was their single greatest invention to the human race?

The cuckoo clock……Yes, yes, yes.

Like I said, it is not good, it breeds complacency and complacent people can do nothing – absolutely nothing bc capable people will never ever join them. ”

You certainly have a way with words. You do. Why am I not surprised by this. When did we ever try to fight you any of you?

If CONFLICT is so good then what do you make of what has recently transpired in Mumbai. Tell me in what way did that produce your so called “good.”

And if you look at Taiwan. Once again in what way do parliamentarians who promote CONFLICT by shout ing insults and abuse at each across the floor produce the so called good.

I am not a PAP supporter but what I can say is what the PM advanced in his recent party speech concerning the merits of a one party system will be a better producer of “good.”

No one denies in such times, we desperately need:

-strong government
-decisiveness
-speed
-unity

To successfully see us through this economic crisis.

Even you have to agree with that Singaporedaddy.

As I said, I am not here to pick a fight with the brotherhood. Erio was stupid enough to do that and it is clear you people have ratcheted and up the ante.

Let us all try to live and let live. I too agree with what gilbert hopes for, a day when we will be able to see mp’s in toc like ypap site and when that day comes, I too will like to be able to personally sit down with people such as you and darkness, who I have heard so much abt and is something of a legend in the gaming world.

Let us unite together

Hi gemami,

“I am glad that singaporedaddy has shown us how to be gracious with his mature act in conceding that he had mis-read or misunderstood chorus’s post.”

Stop being such a first class boot licker. Singaporedaddy did what he did to chorus very much in a way a man strips another man naked and runs him down for the sheer sport of it. Chorus was never any match against sd. He never stood a chance in hell.

This is what the brotherhood regularly do to their own kind. This is what he means by skill-at-arms. I think.

If someone screws up in brotherhood land they all gather in a circle and the person has to commit suicide. Then they all divide his credits.

Its tribal and barbaric. And it comes from their nomadic heritage. Nothing more than a higher form of survival of the fittest.

They make a big brouhaha of their sportmanship in the gaming world that everyone knows abt it.

But what they dont tell us. Its not so much to protect all of us. Rather without it, I suspect they would even kill themselves very much like dog bite dog. That is why sportsmanship is promoted and even worshipped on the altar. So strictly is this rule enforced. Should anyone kill one of them, the first question they will ask is was it a fair fight? If it was the victor takes all the property and titles of the dead. If it was not a fair fight. They will burn every house and kill everyone in the village and turn it into a lake in the virtual. They will send a clear message to all.

But make no doubt, it is through the instrument of fear that they solicit compliance.

How can so few men otherwise rule over such a large population in the virtual?

They must be like these people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2agLCjMY7og

But this is not a civilized way. It is brutal and it is barbaric. And it is certainly not progress of the kind that will serve us well.

The only way to deal with this fellow is to get 20 of the best scholars let him have a go with them and after that, I am sure, he would be just in the mood for humble pie.

Gee, Lazarus,

You do see things from the other side of the tomb (pun intended).

Unfortunately, I prefer to see things as they appear and unfold before my eyes. I have seen enough of the normal kind who do not give two hoots about plain courtesy and to retreat when a mistake is admited. To me, it’s as plain and simple at that.

Do I know or even care if the brotherhood wear boots or slippers? You know the answer, I don’t.

Good Morning Lazarus,

Thank you for sharing with us all your nice fairytale.

“The only way to deal with this fellow is to get 20 of the best scholars let him have a go with them and after that, I am sure, he would be just in the mood for humble pie.”

Mmmmmmh……20 is nice round even number isn’t it? 1 against 20 (tick tock tick tock) ………Yes, it will do very nicely, I think.

I accept.

SD (Internet liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Paying top dollars for top talents is indisputable in the private sector. They are held accountable personally, subject to market forces and dismissal without pensions. For any government to adopt the same principles of remuneration as the private sector, it has to subject itself to the same terms of responsibility, accountability and transparency. For a government to enjoy private sector pays without the associated liabilities is simply manipulating the throne of monopoly at the expense of the people.

Eaxample:
**Ministers enjoy private sector pays and will still enjoy pensions when they retire. Is this correct? Acceptable? Justified? Approved by majority?

TOC is a platform for open discussion between all parties – pro, anti or neutral. It is also opened to all to express their opinions, convictions, etc. Most importantly, it is opened to all strata of Singaporeans. Therefore, those who choose to express themselves here must be prepared for others’ feedback as well. Different levels and styles of expressions are to be expected. The fundamental point is whether one is prepared to engage in civil exchanges, defends one’s position/opinions, etc.

Example:
Regurgitating ST’s reports pertaining to governance is the least credible argument to support one’s position.

The call to express alternative solutions for PAP here is simply out of touch. We don’t pay taxes to tell the govt what to do or did not do. They are deemed to know what not to do. Rather, we held the govt responsible and accountable for their incapabilities, especially, when they ridiculously justified their own inflated pays. There are alternatives which we can adopt to make Singapore a better place for all. It will come from a NON-PAP party since PAP cannot undo what it has wrongly done. Doing so just proves that PAP has been wrong.

Example:
The unjustified and unnecessary GST increase to 7%.

For those with the conviction to effect positive changes in S’pore, the most viable option is to volunteer your time, energy and brain to whichever political party that you believe in. The rest will just fall into place in due course.

“122) chorus on December 1st, 2008 9.15 pm
Another barbed remark. Why am I not surprised?

To answer your question, healthy debate, to me, is exchange of ideas, opinions in a rational and civilised manner. I’m all for passionate debate but not when there is no debate in the first place or maybe only 10% debate and 90% ranting, name calling, sarcasm and snide remarks.”

Good that you are composed. In this site, all of us should be prepared for all this. This is raw deep-from-the-heart exchange without peppering with diplomatic ‘civilised’ niceties.

Sieve through all the unnecessary noise and you will find the nugget of golden ‘healthy’ information hidden behind all this ranting, name calling, sarcasm and snide remarks. Get close (not via proxy) to the ground of the other side and you will understand. If you know what I mean. You will never understand the gravity of pain unless you have experienced pain yourself.

A lot of times, the verdict of the grand debate has already been dispensed.

Lazarus,

One hour is all I can spare in the evening. That should be enough to bag your 20 supermen.

Not this week. Next week.

Shall we say…. we go rota and structure it as an open debate, no script, no structure, anything goes, straight from the hip, answer must be given within 10 min intervals – I have 3 shots and so do you – you ask one question, I repond and so on and so forth and we will just make the rules as we go along.

You win I will pack up my barang go and never ever show my face here again. I win and you come up with a public apology on what you have just written – hows that?

The people here decide who is the winner. TOC can even poll it? I will accept the results.

You have my word on this.

Give me your reply before 12 midnight here tonite.

Think! One against twenty – how could you possibly lose?

SD (Internet liaison officer of the brotherhood)

My dear Joshua of 118,

wearing spandex with an “L’ sign emblazon across the chest, and a cape, if I may add, is the exclusive domain of the Letterman of The Electric Company :)

Anyway, have fun, all of you who are able to meet this Sat at the Superheroes gathering. Logicalman has to nanny his kids, and he will be washing spandex alright.

My dear netizens,

People like Lazarus & motley crew are what I term the proverbial hello-bang-and bye bye crowd.

You all notice one thing; when they cannot win in the level playing field; they will use disinformation and lies to further their ends.

And it’s always the same story, the whole world is not ready for their gospel; they’re always ahead of the human race. Only they see the world with a measure of unparalleled clarity; others are blind and flaying; only they are so open minded (till their brains are spilling out) to understand the complexities of our age yada yada yada yada yada yada.

But when comes right down to the rubber meets the road what usually happens?

Like I said, it’s always the hello-bang-and bye bye story:

(1)They go online spout their 7 habits of highly obese cake eaters gospel.

(2)The blogo locomotive runs over them a few times to spare, till they’re like roti prata (they wonder why?)

(3)They say “Oh this is a brutish and feral place, poor sods, they are not ready for my message.” – bye bye, so long adieu, sweet rhapsody of remembrance of things past. How sad (out comes the violin)

My fellow netizens, wonder no more. No mystery here. No da vinci code. It’s the same story ALL the time albeit in varying lines only; a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing beyond the words at a back of a chewing gum wrapper.

And here you need to ask yourself; WHY is it ONLY they cannot seem to prosper online?

Why have they consistently failed to gainfully make full use of the internet in the way the Obama’s of this world have hammered millions of keyboards into ploughshares?

Why my friends?

Why is it the same litany of woes; the world doesn’t understand me; the world is a terrible and brutal place? It needs to be nicer and more polite to me? We all need to go around in starched collars and sip our soup instead of slurp it down?

Why my friends?

Because that is the way of complacent and supine people; and the case is really not so different from the yarn of possibilities and impossibilities; where once upon a time, two shoe salesmen were sent to the dark continent of African during the turn of the last century;

The first salesman on arriving; telegraphed his company and said, “no point sending any shoes here; they’re all barefoot here. I am going back to England.”

A month later; another salesman was sent and he sent the following message: “Send as many shoes as you can! They’re all barefoot here. I am staying here in Africa.”

This my friends is the long and short of it all. I give you the facts, you all decide.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Hi All Here,

Let’s not get over heated here. It’s not worth it anyway. It’s jus ta site that we visited now and then to air our views. No point going to meet and have a “fight” over things. Love and forbearance overcome all barriers.

We are all good people who may have love our country too much to let it go down the drain.

People either pro or anti establishment just want to do something constructive for our country here. If we fight against each other will good will this bring to our country?

I have read all your posts and to me all are correct and have their own perspective.

Some will bring in their “MSM” quotes others anti-PAP ones. So be it – there is no right or wrong here. We can’t effect any changes anyway with what we have written.

For me, I have always advocated mutual respect for all views mentioned. And love for mankind regardless of your stance. If someone disagreedwith me, so be it. If others agreed with me, so be it. There is no use getting and others here. It is just not worth it.

I always remember before I post, several things go through my mind:

1. Is what I post constructive and bring benefit to the readers?

2. Is it negative or discouraging to others who read it?

3. Does it reflect my current mood? I know some who have a bad day will come in and blast away (this is not wrong though, sadly I do it sometimes also)

4. Do my post brings the discussion to a higher level?

5. Do I attack others’ views incessantly?

I try to kep to these few principles wheneevr I post as if not I rather remind quiet.

Take care all. Trust me, what that have transpired here (the flare up) is not helpful nor engaging for all. We should accept and forbear one another for a better Singapore.

Hi Gilbert,

Thanks for your very timely clarion call but I must say that it will sadly go very much unheeded.

Character assassinations will be here to stay and there is nothing we can do about it except to remind each other once in a while to behave.

However, we cannot stop the one being assassinated to rise up and challenge the defamatory remarks that goes beyond the topic of discussion. In this instance, Lazarus has gone way below the belt. If he claimed to know the brotherhood that well as to be able to describe the intricacies of its management, then he ought to have well realised that he would be attacking the family members of singaporedaddy.

I am certain he won’t like it if anyone were to say nasty things about his mother, father and siblings. He would surely throw down the gauntlet for his accusers to take it up.

I too have differing opinions to those expressed by sd on some issues and I believe we have been able to discuss things in a civilised manner and to state our stands. There’s all to it.

Perhaps someone ought to write a book on online behaviours – what to and not to do. Maybe can make some money with it too.

While we are on the subject on recruiting the best “talent” and paying top dollar as the panacea for all problems, here’s something from an HR perspective that I got from Lucky Tan’s blog, which sadly sounds eeriely familiar and bears repeating:

http://resources.greatplacetowork.com/article/pdf/warfortalent.pdf

What happens in a war for talent?

There is:

• An invariable emphasis on individual performance (rewarding the individual stars), thereby diminishing teamwork, creating destructive internal competition, and retarding learning and the spread of bestpractices inside the company;
.
• A tendency to glorify the talents of those outside the company and downplay the skills and abilities of insiders, leading to a loss ofmotivation on the part of those inside the firm and to their turnover(thereby ensuring that the recruiting challenge will be even greater asthe company tries to replace those that has inadvertently sent packingelsewhere);
.
• The creation of a self-fulfilling prophecy where those labeled as lessable become less able because they are asked to do less, given fewerresources, training, and mentoring, and become discouraged, in theprocess ensuring that the organization has way too many people whoare in the process of dropping out of the competitive fray;
.
• A deemphasis on fixing the systemic, cultural, and business process issues that are invariably much more important for enhancingperformance, as the company seeks success solely through getting the right people in the door;
.
• And finally, the development of an elitist, arrogant attitude—once you have successfully competed in the war for talent, you have the best people—an attitude that makes building a wise organization almost impossible; in wise organizations, people know that they know and they know what they don’t know. Companies that think they are winning thewar for talent think they are so full of smart people that they know everything!”

Well, what you said is fair for a reasonable people for a reasonble purpose for a reasonable period.

Just to share with you.

A few years back, WDA was formed to help with the employment. One of its big advantages, was that it was supposed to be in a better position, better equipped and so on, so forth.
I had more than 15 yrs working experience on computers, hardware, doing NTLP courses etc.

In 2005, someone from WDA – offered me a job and the last question she ask – if I am capable or know anything about computer.
Well, you decide if my opening statement is valid ?

hahaha. hilarious. lets see, you call his whole family ‘barbarians ‘ ‘tribal” ‘dog eaters’ which all amounts to a list of pejorative terms for an uncivilized person. Then you end it all by posting a youtube clip to give us all an idea of how his family looks like. And since they are hardly the Bradey bunch but more like a cross between bob marley and the lizard of the year and you then when everyone thinks that’s enough, you threaten him???

You have to the out of your mind.

The way I see it this debate should take place. contrary to what gilbert says, I dont see anything remotely confrontational abt it. Infact it seems to be a very civilized way of settling things and clearing up the misunderstanding. I am sure, I speak for many who will certainly look forward to such an event with great anticipation, as it will certainly be something new to us all online.

I will certainly return back here again bfr midnight to check things out. :)

………can’t wait for the 20 promised scholars…..zzzzzzzz…….

See how shameful is our clown prince is in term of salary. You can’t beat that with so many great leaders staring at him.
“http://www.moneymind.sg/2008/12/highest-paid-presidents-pms-around.html”

Opppsss…. did someone ask how much in the past he got by the combined salaries of Deputy prime minister, Finance Minister and Chairman of MAS ?

Gemami

Thanks for yr post.

Maybe we can combine resources to write about the book? haha.

Take care. You are the best here!

Hey Daniel, thanks for the link. I REALLY admire the stark contrast in the GDP and salary charts :D

“137) Lazarus on December 2nd, 2008 10.23 am
But make no doubt, it is through the instrument of fear that they solicit compliance.

How can so few men otherwise rule over such a large population in the virtual?”

fear ! few men !! rule !!! population !!!! Are you implying something on the subtle side. Some familiar ground that we are already currently under.

Yes, its still early day, but I have a rough feel where this will go, call it intuition or just instinct, but I have a rough feel where this will go. next time, dont make threats….dont spread lies…do you understand…go in peace!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuAskRsP5K0&feature=related

SD

This seems to be a weird habitual drug-addicted PM.

Ordinary drug addicts take drugs for kicks and pleasure of hallucination but not this weird one. He likes to take drugs for the bitterness and suffering instead of for kicks and pleasure.

I think we are in for very serious trouble. We seriously need a new PM – the sooner the better.

t just sold off the power station. ntuc is biggest supermarket chain yet their prices are not as good as other smaller supermarket. why?
be prepared, one day they might just sell singapore to the right buyer

sheng siong only got about 20 plus stores, ntuc got almost 200 stores. why????they have 10 times the buying power

Soon they are going to auction you people off to other countries as maids and construction workers.

Hello, Bang, Bye, Bye X 20.

O Lazarus! Where are thy twenty scholars?
O where have they gone?

Tail between thy legs,

To be humbled by thy own threat!
Go eat thy pie, of rotten eggs!

Don/Tiredsingaporean,

Temesak can just sell our three power houses without any fanfare. I guess they need the money to offset the billion dollars losses from ill-timed investments.

I remember when they bought into Optus, many Australians raised an uproar as it is like selling away your national heritage. Of course, finally, Optus was bought by Temesak due to the good pricing.

Shin Corp (Thai) was also bought by Temesak/GIC but due to public uproar, the sales was outlawed and I think they lost billions again here due to the depressed prices now. They have to sell away their stake soon.

We Singaporeans sometimes have little power to oppose such sales as once sold, the private companies can actually raise tariffs on their products and the victims are all the commenrs.

We had a glimpse of that when electricity tariff was raised 21% just two months back by a privatised company.

I am against corporate fire sales of our country resources as it will only hurt the pockets of commoners here.

“160) gemami on December 3rd, 2008 7.34 am
O Lazarus! Where are thy twenty scholars?”

Do not make of them ok.

Scholars ?? Their type is only good in creating / devising rent seeking rules.

When it comes to dynamic stuff having to get their hands real dirty, they are stuck. They have to look good, perfect, numero uno. They will only accept jargons like talent, no grandstanding, not playing to the gallery, honest mistakes.

How silly, maybe I imagine too much.

That shows how shallow you are Gemama. Lazarus was not afraid. He knows when not to walk into a big bear trap.

Its pointless to fight against them, the rig everything up. You really believe, if even toc polls the results, we could win?

Hello all they would do is post it in their gaming bulletin board and flying voters will come in and thats how they will cook the numbers.

Like I said sore losers and crookedness go hand in hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvMmoG8CZyQ&feature=related

we dont play with people who are sore losers.

Missus commented today that power stations are a KEY NATIONAL STRATEGIC ASSET and it was funny how all these were sold right from under the citizens’ noses.

She said that in Australia, citizens would have protested such a sale (and have done so on numerous occasions when national assets were being sold off).

Odd that Temasek just sold this without as much as a squawk.

On another note, I am curious how these assets were “transferred” across from public assets to a private asset. Years ago, these power generating factories (along with MRT stations/MRT infrastructure, telecom infrastructure, water and gas lines and other infrastructure) were built with public funds. How were they “transferred” to private companies?

To widowmaker:

Lazarus was the one who FIRST issued the challenge:
“The only way to deal with this fellow is to get 20 of the best scholars let him have a go with them and after that, I am sure, he would be just in the mood for humble pie.”

From my reading of the posts here, SD merely took up the challenge and proposed the terms of the engagement, which seem fair to me.

“That shows how shallow you are Gemama. Lazarus was not afraid. He knows when not to walk into a big bear trap. ”

And you think we do not know that. They are just no match for this kind of dynamic discourse. The overall system (with certain conflicting moving parts) is in such they will not have chance if one really wants to engage deeply and I mean real deep.

They are only good at no-noise, no-disturbance, no-obstacle, no-what-nots kind of set up in order for them to operate nicely. They are only good in throwing out standard template regurgitation.

But then, they do not seem to mind giving us all the different medical pills to make us hungry – like competition from foreigners, GST, ERP, also the opportunity to say thank you for doing ‘investments’ on our behalf, etc (just name the rest for me lah).

So, traps are good for certain people but not good for another group. We know they are ‘good’, very very ‘good’ just as in Animal Farm ?

Gilbert,

I concur with you on your concern about the sale of core national assets to private enterprises. I am no economist but I can understand that these buyers will have an even more pressing and legitimate need to watch their bottom line. What better way to pass any cost increase to hapless captive customers? What if these enterprises fail down the road? What impact will it have on the nation? Electricity is a basic input in many supply chains, and I can’t see why any country would be so eager to sell these off for a profit? Is this consistent with the long-term view that’s held by the ruling party with respect to investment?

And btw, just wondering if this sale would be booked for 2008 and somehow find its way into the computation of this year’s GDP.

Lazarus was not afraid. He knows when not to walk into a big bear trap. ”

Greetings widowmaker,

You speak as if you know the Lazarus guy. Are you one with him? How do you know he is not trembling and shitting in his pants at the thought of his challenge being taken up by his opponent? Perhaps, it’s the same reason why the 20 promised scholars suddenly evaporated into thin air – cyberspace or otherwise. And just like Lazarus, you are also engaging in the same sport of trying to assassinate the brotherhood character.

(…excuse me, I need to go visit the loo…..)

……….. okay, I’m back…………………….

I just needed to throw up, if you don’t mind. Puking makes me feel better at times like these.

You must have knotted your own brain cells (if any). The challenge was made by the Laz guy, in case you’ve forgotten, or are those your own words instead? It was not by the figment-of-your-imagination space brotherhood creature.

Where is he now, the Laz guy? Waiting to be called out of the tomb – again?
Better remain where he is in case he comes across another noose to place over his head.

Gee, I am so polite.

logicalman,
Our world-class clowns can even sell their soul, conscience and moral authority for mere millions, what thing they cannot sell ? They can’t even discern what is right and what is wrong, and all they can regurgitate is the same old message that they do it for commerical interersts, in other words and simple term, MONEY. If they screw anybody unjustly, they always justify that in the name of nation-building and nation-security. Under this regime, no wonder I find a soulless and incompassionate society. To think that our children are educated in this UNIQUE environment who recite the propaganda pledge everyday without knowing what it really means to them.

They can even sell “scambomb” to the public without feeling remorse and guilty, they can even sell the kangaroo system to the world of how world-class it is. They can even sell their legal profession that bring disgrace to the rule of law just to appease their masters. They even manipulate and brainwash educated youngster like P65 as leader to perpetuate their idealism, policy and power.

And to think that most P65 Leeders can only bring the same kind of arrogancy and nonsense as their masters to the public is really unbelieveable.

Hi Fellow Singaporeans,

I have posted this in another thread and I think it is good to post it here too.

How often have we heard the above expression in our course of conversations, whether here in TOC or elsewhere in our own private gatherings. Do we really believe that Singaporeans are fully responsible for the rubbish perpetuated by the PAP govt? I seriously think we should stop thinking that we are at fault.

Look at the various election platforms by which the PAP sourced for our votes.
- A more open and consultative government.
- A gracious society
- The next lap (where we look after one another especially those lagging behind).

These are just of the few telling ones; and; it is by these promises that majority of the voters were taken in, believed and voted.

When things go wrong, the blame suddenly falls on the people for giving the PAP govt the blank check to govern. How wrong this percetion is. If it is true, then every democratic govt of the world can do likewise and blame the people for every failed policy.

It is time for us to wake up and be clever enough to discern the lies that this PAP govt has been feeding us. When you start to chant these lies like a mantra, you will end up believing that they are truth – which is furthest from the truth.

Think about it, won’t you?

Regards to all.

“We had a glimpse of that when electricity tariff was raised 21% just two months back by a privatised company.”

Not to distract the issue but the increase in tariff is not “backed by a privatised company”. There’s a standard methodology to calculating the tariff and for 4Q it’s just that we were caught by falling spot prices and previously high forward prices.

It’s tempting to think that the buying companies somehow has power to influence tariff but speaking as someone from the industry itself I can assure you it’s not the case.

“Not to distract the issue but the increase in tariff is not “backed by a privatised company”. There’s a standard methodology to calculating the tariff and for 4Q it’s just that we were caught by falling spot prices and previously high forward prices.”

I thought that some clown tell us it is a secret formula , and it is so secret it cannot tell the world. So how can you tell if the methodology may not involve price fixing and collusion with some public companies ? Remember in our country, anything that make money for our coffers, anything goes, it is not that we are new in Singapore.

Go to EMA website and read the material on this thing called “vesting contracts”. The methodology for determining the LRMC strike price (which sort of forms the basis for the tariff) is there and if you can understand it, it will explain why tariff goes up when spot prices came down for this quarter.

That being said, while the LRMC strike price is closely related to the tariff, the final tariff is calculated by SP Services and incorporates additional charges like transmission, account services etc.

Hi guys,

What is this thing about 1 against 20? Is there going to be a pit-fight? If it is a civil bout between the Liaison Officer of the Brotherhood and Lazarus (not the Young PAP guy, right?) and his 20 merry men, TOC would be glad to host and provide a special space for this.

But first, someone do explain what on earth is going on? How did we get from bitter medicine to a duel between mortals and immortals?

Thank you.

Sincerely.

The price of an essential public good like electricity should be kept as stable as possible, to avoid wreaking havoc/sabotage on prices, consumption and economy down the supply chain. That’s where hedging comes in, I think, from whatever I can recall from the A-level & uni economics courses I took.

However, I remain puzzled as to why oil contracts are used instead of gas, which is the primary input to the production of electricity here. Would I sell cakes and cost it based on oil prices, for example? Is it not timely to review the costing of electricity, and to make it known to the public the actual costs, as well as any subsidies applied, so that we can be sure there isn’t any profiteering?

“Do we really believe that Singaporeans are fully responsible for the rubbish perpetuated by the PAP govt?”

Of course no lah, we are only responsible for making noise and do a lot complaints lah. That is what we can do lah.

We are so powerless that we can’t even eat in MRT, will get fined if we sleep in park bench, can’t even buy chewing gum here, etc.

What responsible ? I thought all the while they want us to be kuai kuai listen only while they do the difficult ‘high-level’ thinking. Now, it’s time for my turn to go to the toilet.

Gemami/Logicalman

I tend to agree with you Gemami here that we have somehow given our govt the blank check to cash in on whatever/however they want to. The single-party system that they advocated will only bring hardship to the commoners.

I am also surprised no one raises a nook about the sale of our national treasures. One wonders whether our country is so dumb or not? If this happen in any civilised part of the country, they will rise up in demonstration and protest. Just asked the Thias about Shin Corp and the Aussies on Optus.

Here, the sales passed through smoothly as if we are all dead! C’mon Singapore!

Fancy we are selling Seraya to the Malaysians! This is unimaginable considering that just not so long ago a certain PM has threatened Singapore with the water supply issue.

Unless there is a viable check and balance system, this one-tracked mindset will go on without consideration on how the country will feel.

I may be unable to sleep again tonight…

“However, I remain puzzled as to why oil contracts are used instead of gas, which is the primary input to the production of electricity here.”

First and foremost I wish to state that I’m speaking as an individual and not representing my employer, Temasek or even the Singapore gahmen. I don’t want to get sacked :)

Next, why oil and not gas prices? Some points here (I’m just postulating but I think that was the history behind the pricing formula):

a) Natural gas is a seller’s market. The seller has more say; buyer can only negotiate;
b) Seller therefore can decide the basis of gas pricing; buyer can only negotiate;
c) Seller chooses to peg to oil because oil is the “alternative fuel” for Singapore; other fuel such as coal makes no sense because Singapore doesn’t use coal;
d) Spot NG prices are irrelevant because we need long term supply contracts to ensure that we have the gas; spot market is not a reliable platform to obtain supply of physical gas.

As I said I am only postulating because I wasn’t involved in the negotiation itself. So the above is based on what I understood from other people in the industry.

As for the sale of Seraya (or the sale of all the gencos), well only the gahmen can answer why…

How did we get from bitter medicine to a duel between mortals and immortals?

Hi TOC,

This is a case of bitter medicine losing its sugar-coating and this is how it happened.

Someone called Lazarus walked out of his tomb, apparently after hearing some voices in his head, looked up and noticed some cosmic interference in the night sky and thought some strange creatures from the land of dark and plenty had descended onto a tiny little place marked by a little red colour dot on his map.

Believing he had attained nirvanaic ecstasy, and having special powers invested unto himself, he began to preach to the group of descendants who called themselves the brotherhood.

Preaching with drunken authority, he spared no one and particularly targeted his preaching at one who called himself the daddy of singapore. Probably he took offence at the tiltle this alien creature gave himself and he wanted it for himself. He wanted to be a daddy to all and sundry.

To gain the title of being the Daddy of Singapore, he threw down his challenge to the poor creature with the unfortunate title, the Liaison officer. To make sure that he won’t be disadvantaged, he vowed to bring in twenty of the best of the best drunken scholars from his side to fight the Liaison officer who dare calls himself the daddy of singapore. He failed to forsee that his challenge would be taken up.

Instead of 20 drunken scholars all we have heard from the dead man is 27 hours of silence. Oops! did I say “dead man”. Probably that’s the reason for the silence?

So you see, TOC, you might not have to stage the fight after all. Not before we can get all 21 tails off the legs they are residing between.

To 178
Hmm even if you don’t say you represent your company, no one would have known anyway :)

To 177
Citizens have been threatened repeatedly, again and again, from “all your daughters will become maids” to “you be thankful”. Not surprising that the same trick is used over and over again – even when just about no one realise that GIC/Temasek investments have probably gone under just overnight. ‘National Treasures’ have ‘disappeared’, fellow citizens being pilfered, life savings being spirited away – all in a moment of confusion and uncertainty.
The terms ‘top/world class talents’ are only subjective – and bear no relevance to one’s actual social contribution or performance. Need I say more about those who self-proclaim?
Being taken advantage of again, and again, and yet again, many prefer to remain silent, ‘lan lan suck thumb’ as they were thought in their national service days, or just lament during coffeeshop talks. Will not deny that I’m one of such a person, but it feels like the time is coming as more people stand up for themselves, and for the people who believe in them. Via the response here and from actions of individuals, it is heartening to still be able to find people who are willing to argue, to challenge the norm, to serve as a barrier against moves against the people’s wishes, and a reminder for people as to what they are living for.

As to why gas prices are pegged to oil prices, the problem afflicts more than just Singapore.

This is from IHT
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/29/business/rengas.php

Pegging to oil prices looks normal, but it was a mistake in “hedging” that caused us to pay more when prices dropped as drastically.

Hedging, for the lack of a better word, is like gambling. You take bets on how the prices would change.

In companies like SIA, the policy is NEVER to make money off hedging but merely to ensure a more predictable cost to the company. Not sure what the policy is with EMA.

Whatever the case, someone sure made money from this gamble.

Why are gas prices pegged to oil prices?

Many people say that history plays a preponderant role. But that’s bs.

Reasons are four fold:

(1)Firstly, gas /cubic meter vs barrel / cost significantly much more to process, transport and store when compared to crude. That’s why when natural gas was first discovered, it was just flared off – it wasn’t that gas companies didn’t realize they were burning money, it’s just like trying to transport ice from the Antarctica to Singapore – the transportation cost just didnt add up to make money sense.

(2) Secondly, the cost per km / for transporting gas is higher and far more complex than lets say petroleum / no one for example refuels their car at home, but bear in mind when you turn on the stove, how did the gas get there? / In addition, the stuff that is commonly used to make the transportation and storage facilities are ALL produced by companies who have traditionally supplied to oil companies and their production cost is linked to the price of oil / so if oil goes up, the price of piping, metering, freight & forwarding, transport, storage silos etc goes up as well.

(3) And the third reason is price stability – but here it gets screwy and a bit complicated; because we are not talking about the real price as much as we are about the agreed selling and buying price – so it is really a case of lets say 4 people playing monopoly who suddenly decide to throw away the rule book and price lets say Mayfair for £1,000 instead of 500, now if you think abt it, that will also have a knock on effect on lets say the value of real estate in Whitechapel and it may also mean if you pass go instead of getting 200, you may end up with 500. But for your understanding, what’s important here is when the players agree on the price; then it becomes the price and in this way the illusion becomes reality.

(4) The fourth reason is very closely linked with (3) albeit with an economic twist / and it’s due to the nature of how gas trading and structured instruments relating to commodities are profiled / understand this. no one just decides to wake up on Monday and buy lets say 3 million cubic feet of gas. The market is NEVER structured to service the short or even intermediate term, you may find this in the petroleum market, but NEVER in commoditizing gas markets /many people have tried to do it / they have lost money /

So what you need to understand here is ALL gas deals are specifically structure to service ONLY the exceptionally long term i.e the median is usually 20 years or more. And there is a good reason for that; its too darn expensive to pipe gas. So if you’re a govt like China that needs to buy gas lets say from Burma’s Yetagun offshore gas field for the next yonks years; you need to dump in X, Y and Z billions to construct export pipelines, regeneration pumps, storage depots etc and that’s a huge infrastructural investment; but how do you built in long-term ‘fail proof’ contracts without price stability? How do you even begin to amortize your capital investment through a period of years? How do you mitigate and manage your risk?

Well the short answer is it cannot be done without price stability, it’s like buying a house where the bank can say, your interest can range anywhere from 1% to 5,000% within a period of 30 yrs – so “stability” can only be only be had, if the price of gas is pegged to something that everyone can understand and work with, and usually that’s oil.

That in the palm of your hands is why gas is pegged to oil. And they said, you couldnt learn anything from the internet.

I hope this helps

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Very interesting and definitely very enlightening. Thanks!

Now if you really want to get into the belly of this subject; why is gas prices linked to petroleum and why is it all suddenly now turning into the crying game.

It pays to learn one new word. it’s call “peak oil,” IMHO, you could get much more in the term of a good return in your energy and effort, by just spending maybe a few hours reading up on this subject; if you just zoomed into the meat instead of sideskirting the pork belly.

Its good to go.

SD

Yup yup, we are in a golden era….yeah right…maybe for a selected group of people who have huge pay increment?

Ministers pay increase, while normal worker’s pay remains the same or increase at a very slow rate, and we are always given the impression that we shouldn’t ask for pay increment to keep our workforce competitive.