Mumbai terrorist attacks: A look at the confirmed foreigner deaths in Mumbai – Associated Press.
Andrew Loh / Deputy Editor
In February this year, I wrote a piece titled, Bitter medicine prescription – with a little spin thrown in. It was in response to the Parliamentary debate on the budget. Nine months later, we revisit the comments and remarks by some People’s Action Party (PAP) Members of Parliament (MP) made in February and in 2007.
In the earlier article, I asked:
With the cost of living increasing at an alarming rate and inflation breaching record levels, one wonders when Singaporeans will get to “enjoy” the fruits of this so-called “golden era”.
Well, it looks like we will have to wait a little while longer because, just today – 28 November – Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong said that “there is still bitter medicine to be taken” (CNA), echoing what he said in 2007 with regards to the GST hike:
“Is it better to take your medicine sooner or stretch it out? Take medicine once or two times? I prefer to take my medicine early…” he said then. (CNA)
Then as now, he did not say how long more Singaporeans will have to swallow such “bitter medicine”, of course. But all projections say that the current downturn will last between two to three years. So, that gives us an idea of how much longer the “doctor” will have to prescribe his everlasting “bitter pills”.
But wait.
Were we not told of all the nice things that will happen to us if we took our “bitter medicine” in 2007? During the debate in Parliament on the Budget (and the GST hike) that year, various PAP MPs defended the Government.
MP for Ang Mo Kio GRC, Lee Bee Wah, was reported by the Straits Times thus:
On Ms Lim’s criticism of the timing of the GST hike, she said it was better to raise the tax now while the economy was doing well, rather then wait till things took a turn for the worse. Using a Hokkien phrase, she warned against ‘looking for a toilet only when one needs to pass motion’, a comment that evoked laughter from the House. (Link)
I think Singaporeans are the ones looking for the toilet now, with the bitter pill seemingly a laxative, rather than any actual relief.
Various PAP MPs all had very high praises for the budget then – calling it ‘comprehensive and forward-thinking’, ‘good-intentioned’, one which was ‘made in heaven’, ‘inclusive and a landmark Budget’, ‘pragmatic, innovative and exemplary’, a ‘viable alternative to welfare’, ‘generous and forward-looking’.
Dr Fatimah Lateef was ecstatic, almost in a trance, one would think, in her praise:
Let me share with her (NCMP Sylvia Lim) that nowhere else in the world can you get a Budget which includes love and compassion in abundance as this one.
Well, as they say, love and compassion won’t fill your stomachs.
And so more “bitter medicine” is needed – even after more than a year.
More “bitter medicine” and “bitter pills” for Singaporeans, of course, in case you’re still wondering. For the ministers, they have not-so-bitter medicine for themselves. In fact, just two months after that Parliamentary debate, ministers had the first of their scheduled 3-step pay hike in April 2007. The second rise came in January this year (2008).
What about Singaporeans?
Well, we saw record inflation – and a whole host of costs increases across the board; everything from rice to petrol, bus fares to milk powder. What Singaporeans experienced was a relentless rising cost of living in Singapore. Have a look at the list here but be careful, it might make you puke out the bitter medicine our white-shirted doctors are prescribing.
But lets be serious.
Dear Prime Minister, Singaporeans have taken bitter medicine for more than a year now – since you yourself prescribed it in Parliament in 2007 and you said that “once we have done it, we can move on.” (CNA)
Well, where are we moving on to now? More bitter pills?
Channel NewsAsia, on November 2008, reported you as having said:
Mr Lee said that while there is still bitter medicine to be taken, the Singapore government has put a bit more sugar coating on the pill. (CNA)
Dear Prime Minister, “sugar coating”?
You asked in 2007:
Is it better to take your medicine sooner or stretch it out? Take medicine once or two times?
Dear Prime Minister, I am beginning to feel that your medicine is not very good – or effective. They only seem to make your “patients” dependent on your prescriptions. You seem to take some morbid pleasure in using the term “bitter medicine” too. You have used it twice in two years.
Prime Minister, the very fact that you keep using the terms “bitter medicine” and “bitter pills” show me the insensitivity which you seem to display towards what Singaporeans are going through.
Perhaps you and your team should try and taste some of the bitter medicine you dish out so happily to Singaporeans.
Or perhaps Singaporeans should prescribe some bitter pills for you and your team – at the next General Elections.
Perhaps then, we can all be rid of such neverending sugar-coated bitter pills.
After all, under your leadership, all that Singaporeans seem to be doing these past years is swallowing bitter stuff – while at the same time, being told by you and your Government how exceptional a government you are and how Singapore is in a ‘golden period’.
Someone, certainly, is being fooled.
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Picture from epthinking.
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94) Gilbert Goh
Hi Gilbert,
I have to disagree with some of your comments.
For TOC to advance it’s objective of being a top socio-political site, it has to start attracting people of diverse views and yet gracious enough to allow them in without being subjected to bombardment.
I do not see TOC running anyone down in this forum. I do see a lot of comments that rebuke Eliana for being PAP inclined. I also do not see the need for TOC to defend itself when called to do so. It gives out thought-provoking articles to get people to discuss issues of the day. This is the greatest service TOC is currently providing to Singaporeans.
If Elaina is allied towards the ruling party so be it. Why shot her down?
Firstly, what TOC is, is an open secret. It has attracted a lot of commentators that are in opposite contrast to the MSM. What TOC will eventually become is very much up to the dictation of commentators that will be joining it in the future but for now it is either anti-PAP or pro-Singapore.
What I am trying to say is that for people like Elaina coming in from out of the blue, she cannot but expect the kind of comments she had contributed to be shot down. Anyone of us joining the various PAP platforms and start scolding the people there will also get a dressing down. So, she has to understand this and expect it here too. She cannot then try to play an angel when the arrows start heading her way and call the others ‘devils’.
For one who claims to be widely travelled and have seen enough to make comparisons it is really bewildering to see that she cannot even look beyond the fact that she has come onto a platform that she knows well sure, will not, first and foremost, have its majority subscribing to her ideas and comments. If this is not myopic, then I do not know what is.
If reading the postings by Joshua and Zheng Xi correctly, you will see that both are barking up a different tree from that of Elaina. It goes to show that the PAP is out of touch with the people. It also shows us clearly the reason why a one-party system will not work. How is Joshua or Zheng Xi going to effect any change within the PAP if the people making up the lower levels of these feedback bodies are so adamant in their beliefs of how good the PAP govt is.
Nothing we say is going to change anything because they are not open nor receptive to alternative views which are in stark contrast to what they hold dear. And she cannot claim to speak in her capacity as an individual without stating it outright at the beginning. Just like the three-kangaroo T-shirt guys. They have been associated with the SDP even though they do not belong to the party.
On the flip side, there is something to be happy about. TOC is attracting views from the mainstream and I sincerely hope it continues to do so. This does not mean that we have to constantly come to the defence of bloggers from the mainstream who drop in to make a point or two. So far, we have seen a few who comes in with guns blazing as if the PAP’s reputation needs protection from them. I wonder why. I am sure they do not need any caution from us to tread with care. They know the ground at TOC enough to know what to expect.
Finally, for the majority of anti-PAP postings, well, it has to be. We have to be real and allow anyone who has anything to say, to say it in all honesty – no sugar-coating needed.
This is the beauty of online discussion.
There will always be factors out there that will cause the economy to decline. It’s ok for those that are born before the 80s or 90s as we have gone thru’ real hardship. i’m just wondering what is going to happen to those younger generations. Alot of them are so spoilt! Does the govt actually think they can swallow bitter pills?
Good Afternoon all,
“Elaina coming in from out of the blue, she cannot but expect the kind of comments she had contributed to be shot down…………She cannot then try to play an angel when the arrows start heading her way and call the others ‘devils’.”
Yes, I agree completely with Gemami’s statement in 101. Everyone should be free to state their case in a public square such as TOC, but they must FIRST be able to defend their view rationally – and there is a big difference between being rude and outright obnoxious and robust and earnest – the former is inexcusable; but the latter is part and parcel of rational discourse – you cannot make eggs without breaking them.
One thing that I have noticed about this ypap folk is they never ever write with the mission to persuade or influence as much as to curry favor with their superiors to come across as loyal, useful or purposeful. That’s to say when they post something online, 80% of their mentality is structured in the such a way where they will always say, “I hope some grass root leader reads reads what I am writing and he will take me under his wing.” The other 20% is spend on wondering how to get their bosses to read what they have written online.
Wonder no more. The pattern is the same on every single occasion.
That’s the problem when a group of people become so terminally complacent and supine – they never ever need to learn how to fight; so their skill-at-arms corrodes and they think that everyone owes them a living.
I could be wrong of course, but I really don’t think so, as I’ve taken a lot of effort to try to understand them and till today they con’t to confound me no end – all I know is they are NOT interest in meaningful dialogue or even tri-logue – to really do that, one needs to first seek to UNDERSTAND not only the point advanced, but if possible the counter point as well – that requires imagination and complacent people never ever see the need for that, they just assume that all of us should eat cake.
UNDERSTANDING is key – and it is not so different from a commander taking a sweep of the terrain and landscape when he decides to position his army, but with this people judging from the way they regularly make the charge of the light brigade look like a sensible military enterprise – one really has to wonder; how is it possible for someone to get it so wrong all the time?
What’s the probability of that?
Now that is the part that really defies all logic – I cannot understand. I want to believe. Really, I too, but as I said, I cannot, can you imagine how far they can go as a force in the virtual; if only they bothered to developed the skill-at-arms? If they had bothered to build up core competencies online and say develop 3 liaison officers; all their problems online would come to and end very soon.
Alas, that’s the thing abt complacent people; the only tool they know is the hammer; is it such a wonder the world is all nails?
“When can their glory fade?
O the wild charge they made!
All the world wonder’d. ”
And I wonder…..why?
It is time for my monday conference call now. Have a great day.
Thx
SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
Very simple…
Fool me once, shame on you
Fool me twice, shame on me
Don’t think a lot of Singaporeans will take this bitter pill much longer when all the good stuff is kept for themselves (just our perception only but perception is everything in human psychology)
can we change for another PM after LKY is done for?
“For TOC to advance it’s objective of being a top socio-political site, it has to start attracting people of diverse views and yet gracious enough to allow them in without being subjected to bombardment.”
This is precisely what TOC is doing and this is the very reason why certain people of other various are here to contribute. To be fair like how most of us have been treated in terms of different views in respect to big brother, surely they (for those still hoping to try their luck even in the glaring presence of facts to the contrary) do not expect to be treated with kids gloves.
Of course, they may wear off if they do not have the stamina to sustain this long discourse, some of which is the same rehash of past pointers. It may be the same old tired rehash for old players, but they are always treated as fresh ‘gems’ for those new entrants to this site.
At least, contributors here are not being blocked from putting down their views unless it is extremely rude, vulgar and obscene. So much better here than our own MSM.
I noticed that in general, PAP supporter and employee have actively participated in online forum in singapore. They’ve been trying thier best to correct some misperception singapore netizen holds against the government.
Hi thanks all for the comments on what I have wrote earlier.
Perhaps I need to clarify myself abit here:
1. Treat all views – whether pro or anti-establishment , with respect. Of course, by posting our comments, we are being subjected to questioning and reasoning. Hopefully, those who are “bombarded” do not get turned off, but I doubt so seeing the majority of views here are anti-establishment here versus pro-establishment’s. In fact, some may follow the crowd – as most Singaporeans do, and inevitably post views that are against their conscience. The key thing here is acceptance and sometimes grace. A few of my friends came in only once as they felt that most of the comments are skewed and do not offer much solutions to the problems. We just blasted away and some people may not like the tone and texture of the comments. Generally, most comments are also mono-syllabic.
2. Following the comments above against Elaina, why fight so hard to win an argument? A few of us countered her some I felt too harshly. I wondered if she will come in again after this round of bombardment. Let’s hope she is make of firmer stuff. We should instead treat her with respect and more so for her views however divergent it may be. If the site is more neutral in tone I beleiev we will attract more netzsens in here and even politicians. We are all make differently and love is the key here. My only big desire is for MPs to frequent this site like YPAP so that views can be exchanged graciously.
3. I wonder if anyone will say something nice about the govt for once? We ought to be impartial on how we judge our authorities. They have done quite alot of bad stuff lately but they have also done well in other things. I am glad that Andrew wrote something on the reduction on civil servant’s pay in a nice way. Of course, some still feel that their pay is way high which I agreed. We ought to treat white as white and black as black here.
As Singapore progresses, we need a population that is brave and gracious exhibiting impartiality on how we do things here.
“107) sien meng on December 1st, 2008 4.02 pm
They’ve been trying thier best to correct some misperception singapore netizen holds against the government.”
Mispeception ? I thought they have been doing so (trying to correct) since 9th Aug 1965. Do not tell me they still have not finished their job yet.
Some of us here are even older than Singapore (since 9th Aug 1965) itself and have learned some hard lessons late in life. And they still want to reeducate us. Are they nuts ? Ask them to wait long long lah.
“The key thing here is acceptance and sometimes grace. A few of my friends came in only once as they felt that most of the comments are skewed and do not offer much solutions to the problems.”
So do your learned friends have anything to offer also, real solutions which we can identify with.
If your friends need unskewed stuff, probably they need to go P65 or some sites over the other side so that they can get re-skewed correctly on balance.
“Following the comments above against Elaina, why fight so hard to win an argument?”
Why fight so hard ??? We are arguing with mere words only. You should be asking the other side why they fight so hard to maintain power (absolute ??? Perhaps not, we have 2 oppo.). These are no words, they are actions implemented to skew the playing field. You need to wake up, my friend.
“If the site is more neutral in tone I beleiev we will attract more netzsens in here and even politicians.”
What neutraility ?? Everyone has a position to take. Your very choice of words in itself is the exercise of controlled judgement / partiality even though one may like to believe that he possesses the highly treasured independent mind.
” I wonder if anyone will say something nice about the govt for once?”
For once, I can agree with you. I am looking forward to their distribution of some ang-pow in this coming budget session.
I do not know Ms Elaine Chong or Mr SY Chua who wrote to ST about Mr Tan Kin Lian, so I cannot claim to understand their motivation or reason for the tone of their comments. However, one thing is clear: Since following TOC from its infancy as a reader, I can testify that TOC is an unbiased forum that encourages an open exchange of ideas, comments and dialogue. There are views from pro- and anti-PAP commentators, though proportionately more of the latter. If because of this, TOC, contributors and/or commentators are labelled as anti-PAP, then I would say this is uncalled-for and regrettably untrue.
Let’s ask ourselves honestly, has the ruling party engaged the public actively in dialogue and feedback over current affairs affecting Singapore? Hardly. The mainstream media, instead of helping to facilitate a healthy exchange of views and ideas, has more often than not, been perceived as a mouthpiece of the PAP, airing mainly letters, interviews and commentaries that echo the official stand of the PAP on relevant matters. Is it therefore strange to find the web, not just TOC alone, becoming platforms for the public to air views and suggestions which may not be to the PAP’s liking?
If I were a serious politician, I would glean the TOC postings and comments to understand better the gripes of the man in the street. There’s no smoke without fire, and there are no gripes without underlying reasons. Singaporeans, being a relatively conservative lot of people, are not prone to complaining if things are bearable, even though some may curse under their breath.
When GST was first introduced, people were skeptical, but since it was without precedence in Singapore, many, including me, were open to giving it a shot as we do know it will contribute to much-needed fiscal revenues for the betterment of Singapore. Before the most recent increase to 7%, there was alot of objection because of the general economic conditions then, but the Govt turned a deaf ear to those, and even now passionate pleas to reduce the GST rate in view of the global financial and economic crises have been flatly brushed aside.
The electricity tariff increase did not fare better. Many have questioned the need & timing to raise the tariff, and the answers from the authorities only led to more questions. Put simply, if the rationale for the increase and the need to peg tariffs to oil prices had come from the mouth of an opposition party instead, what would have been PAP’s response? Would PAP endorse it? Would it not ask why a nation that prides itself on being unique & intelligent, cannot come up with an equitable formula to peg the tariffs to gas prices instead? Would people have expressed the same views, if this had come from the opposition party instead of PAP?
Next, town council and sinking funds. Many netizens have meticulously computed figures based on what the ruling party has provided thus far, including those published on the town council websites, and asked legitimate, deep questions on the proportion of the sinking funds with respect to the purposes served by town councils and S&C Charges. Have these been answered? Did the esteemed ministry take this opportunity to review the size of the collections and usage, and ask hard questions about whether things should change going forward? No, instead all we hear are that it’s all aboveboard, people’s money had not been lost in those investments, be thankful, etc.
There are other issues like the IR decision, Mas Selamat escape & the confounding COI, minister pay adjustment (calling a reduction in variable bonus a pay cut is really creative, I must say), CPF Life, and losses from huge investments made by GIC and Temasek. All have been met with little or no engagement with the public as stakeholders of this nation. It is as if the Govt simply does not want to engage, or that it believes in just telling us what to expect. When commentators like Elaine and Chua come along, we hear more or less of the same, only that these peppered more liberally with sarcasm than a standard response from a Govt authority.
Like Gilbert, I won’t advocate shooting them down, even if they did sound like they are inviting a challenge. If they bring with them valid points, well, let’s respond to them objectively and even embrace them, if they are constructive. If not, don’t waste time writing to them, unless they have made disparaging and uncalled-for remarks, in which case they should learn to apologize and retract, as in any professional context, though I must say that these days, humility is a virtue long extinct, especially among the current national leaders. Explaining away or brushing aside seems to be in vogue. Is this a by-product of a meritocratic society that overly panders to the meritorious ones by rewarding them 20, 40 or 80 times the salary of the man in the street, perks aside? I believe the discerning readers of TOC can decide for themselves.
110)
I respect your views and most importantly accept you for who you are.
Take care my friend whoever you are.
Hi Gilbert,
I have problem agreeing with your clarification. You spoke of respecting individual’s view point (that I too advocate). But you surely know that respect is earned and not a given.
I disagree as well on your implying on setting condition on posting comments except moderation rules set by TOC to attract posters (referring to Ms. Elaina). Comments should come directly from your heart and how you feel about things. I believe matured people (whether you are first time visitor or a regular poster here) who are well exposed, well traveled, well read can differentiate fact from fabircations as well as make their own decision. “anti-establishment” or “pro-government” comments, are just perceptions and terms that individual construed it to be and should not be conditioned. There will always be diverse and differing views in almost any subject matters as each and every one of us holds different perspectives and values. In a public discourse in reality, things happen and events unfold as opinion change hand, it is as honest as it can get without dressing up. Pardon the pun, No Sugar-Coating is needed.
Yes, there are people who will say something nice about the government (well, at least I know I did before from time to time and I have seen some before too), but it is largerly depending on the issues in discourse. Do I expect everyone to agree when I pen something nice or bad about the government? Honesly no, because as much as I personally dislike to see so much “frivolous” ranting and felt is an overkill at times, but I respect it is an individual’s “choice” to ignore or react to it. If people are genuinely concerned of the issues raised and if they find it is worth their time to induce and instigate people to engage in a “rational” discourse and to convince others to accept their perception, I believe, that person will pen his/her view as a source of encouragement with support facts to drive homw their point, but again this is subjected to whether the receiving party will buy in the version presented. It is again back to an individual’s choice. We have enough of nannying and coercing experiences and we can do without it in TOC.
I must say that I too have friends who came in here once in a while and share with me that they find it diffcult to get engaged as they could only see “complains” and “bickering” about almost any article they read. My version of explanation to them is to ask them to give a thought as to why these posters feel that way? In another words, try or imagine what transpired in their mind when they pen their comment.
My ultimate point here to response to your goodwill and well intended advice (pardon me if I cannot keep it brief), it is an individual’s choice to pen their true sentiments regardless of how coarse the language they may choose to use (within the boundary of the moderating rules by TOC), and it is up to other individual to react. I believe individual posteer here in TOC have every right to reply or disregard without conditioned. There is an expression whenever “political issue” discourse is in play: “If you can’t stand the heat in the kitchen, get out”. No insult intended and you are not obligated to concur.
Gentlemen,
The issue is really like the tao of the 二胡 (erhu) string it too tight, it will snap; too loose and it will simply not play.
So what Gilbert is forwarding is right and so is observer (HK-SG) – I suspect the answer lies somewhere in between, so it is really a matter of degree and balance.
But what is important for us all to understand is conflict is something that should never be feared or even avoided. If I walk into a company and everyone tells me everything is good and they are the best in the world, I worry. I don’t even need to look at the books. I know in my bones. It just means somewhere in the system there are many gaping holes – its no good.
If people are not afraid to bring out problems – then I know I am in the company of men who can get things done. It’s good to go – so rather than propagating a fear of conflict; we should instead try to UNDERSTAND it, so that we can channel this force for good rather than bad. That simply means:
-People must ALWAYS be encouraged to think critically instead of just gobbling facts unquestioningly. (whether they are right or not is not important)
-They must also learn to take ownership of their thoughts. This can only force them to work through their beliefs and even winnow many of their assumptions to ensure the points are honed to deadly sharpness.
- Then they must allowed to defend their POV’s robustly and even vigorously in open combat. (this part is the most important part, bc if the webmaster doesn’t understand the tao of the erhu, its no good – it will simply not play, it will be like a sound of a broken guitar).
If 1,2 and 3 is wisely managed, skill-at-arms will develop very fast. I learnt all this from the brotherhood. They call this the “mai-ia” – it means balance or distance –this is how they train their space diplomats who manage a territory some 26,800 million times bigger than Singapore – what is mai-ia? When two opponents fight, a wise kendo master must be able to see beyond the blood and sweat; if he steps in too soon; the training of the exponent will always remain incomplete; he will never be able to pass through the mythical gate – its no good.
Any other way is just a lousy system. You see it is very simple conflict; if channeled properly is an opportunity to improve.
The medieval Europeans for example fought over everything from Copernican theory to such things as where is true magnetic north; in some cases; they even went to war, but look at the luminaries they produced; martin luther, Leonardo da vinci, Michelangelo, Newton and the list goes on and on.
The only people in Europe who didn’t shed one single drop of blood fighting bc they considered themselves above the fray; were the Swiss. They incidentally were also the father of the secret police; and if you fight they will put you in jail; you could say they were the most conflict adverse people on this planet. Even when Hitler came into power and the rest of Europe said “join us,” they the Swiss said, “this doesn’t involve us, we want nothing to do with this”; and pray tell; what was their single greatest invention to the human race?
The cuckoo clock……Yes, yes, yes.
Like I said, it is not good, it breeds complacency and complacent people can do nothing – absolutely nothing bc capable people will never ever join them.
SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
Well written, singaporedaddy! It’s comforting to see so many Singaporeans are knowing what human rights is all about. & what fairness we are supposed to be dealt after all the hard work we put in. We’re all short-changed & we’re unhappy. There will be a day the current leadership system will fall. Right now, we’re under the reign of a tyrant. It’s disheartening. We can only hope for now… For a better tomorrow & a true life. To be paid what we richly deserve & to pay what we should, not more. & to lead a comfortable & fair life. A life where we can afford to do the things we really want.
Gilbert,
I agree with your stand. Cheers.
#113 Observer
“I must say that I too have friends who came in here once in a while and share with me that they find it diffcult to get engaged as they could only see “complains” and “bickering” about almost any article they read. My version of explanation to them is to ask them to give a thought as to why these posters feel that way? In another words, try or imagine what transpired in their mind when they pen their comment.”
I have similar sentiments as your friends. I find that for every insightful and enlightening post one has to wade through 5 others that are simply just plain rude/vulgar/sarcastic…
As for trying to imagine what transpired in their mind…I am inclined to feel that for SOME posters, they might be having a bad patch in life/having a rough time/etc. and needing an outlet to vent, who better to aim than the government? I am also inclined to think that for some, having been ‘repressed’ by MSM/whatever for so many years, having discovered TOC, they are finally allowed to express themselves more freely and are thus fairly ‘trigger happy’.
“My ultimate point here to response to your goodwill and well intended advice (pardon me if I cannot keep it brief), it is an individual’s choice to pen their true sentiments regardless of how coarse the language they may choose to use (within the boundary of the moderating rules by TOC), and it is up to other individual to react. I believe individual posteer here in TOC have every right to reply or disregard without conditioned. There is an expression whenever “political issue” discourse is in play: “If you can’t stand the heat in the kitchen, get out”. No insult intended and you are not obligated to concur.”"
This depends on what TOC wants to function as. If rants and flames are acceptable behaviour, then it is truly a ‘voice of the people’ in the purest form but then it’s role of being a place for healthy debate and exchange of socio political ideas may be compromised.
“As for trying to imagine what transpired in their mind…I am inclined to feel that for SOME posters, they might be having a bad patch in life/having a rough time/etc. and needing an outlet to vent, who better to aim than the government? I am also inclined to think that for some, having been ‘repressed’ by MSM/whatever for so many years, having discovered TOC, they are finally allowed to express themselves more freely and are thus fairly ‘trigger happy’.”
I am sorry, I think this a classical example of a stupid statement by a stupid person.
Can you roll with the punch?
SD
To be fair,
It is not easy being in gahment. I would disagree with those who think our leaders are greedy incompetent stupid etc etc. I would believe that those who come forward and serve do so with the intention and belief they could help. And it is usually quite a thankless task that money may not be able to compensate for. I find it very hard to believe (at least for our folks here) that those who want to be millionaires become politicians.
But then again, the people who serve in the Bush Administration also believed they were doing what they did for the good of America, yup even George W Bush himself.
So I believe it is our duty as citizens to make sure that our Gahmen doesn’t become one themselves.
We can of course, do the following-
a) Exercise the power of vote during GE. Those who can.
b) Recognize that once the ranting is done, it is time for some action. And, I know this might offend some, but let’s face it. Ranting and rebutting are fine, but it won’t get the powers-that-be to take us seriously. There are some who can argue well. There are some with a knack for interpreting data (if they are available lol). They are some here whose rich life experiences we’re only starting to see. And there are some who like to talk cock only. Like me. muahahahahahaaaaa.. It’s true that still the gahmen won’t hear us. Or if they do, they will make it look like they thought of it first. What to do. Asians mah. But as Gilbert sorta implies, there are two sides we are actually engaging – the pro-govs, and the neutrals, and those who stay disengaged because what they see in TOC is only a motley crew of ranters and ravers. We can wait for the gahment to stop treating us like children, or we can show them we are adults.
C) There is no C. Everytime I think of C i become sleepy.
Too many things to say. Too little patience to type them. See you at HLP on Saturday. Are we supposed to come in costume or something? Like Cosplay? Like Logicalman can wear spandex with an “L’ sign or something…. :)
“I have similar sentiments as your friends. I find that for every insightful and enlightening post one has to wade through 5 others that are simply just plain rude/vulgar/sarcastic…”
Then why bother to come here. Why not go to some sites where the reversal is true – where you will get “5 insightful and enlightening posts vs 1 which is just plain rude/vulgar/sarcastic.” Difficult to find right ? Perhaps you could direct us to such sites.
“This depends on what TOC wants to function as. If rants and flames are acceptable behaviour, then it is truly a ‘voice of the people’ in the purest form but then it’s role of being a place for healthy debate and exchange of socio political ideas may be compromised.”
May I know what your definition of healthy debate is ?
Some monotonous, sterile, polished & easy exchange done & paved easily for people like you to stroll through ?
There is a possibility that those more expressive, robust and colourful exchanges between student debaters may not even get through your ‘healthy’ filter.
What about the so-called baptism of fire that used to be mentioned by one senior leader of ours. What fire (smirk) ? I think you should sit in a air-con environment doing political MCQ on a computer where you can always refresh the whole test if you cannot make the mark.
“I find it very hard to believe (at least for our folks here) that those who want to be millionaires become politicians.”
I am not so sure abt that. I really think you need to tarry ho there. All I know is you claim to be the best in the world, then why isnt boeing aeroplane group, general motors, baker Mckenzie and johns hopkins making a bee line to hire you?
Can you even give me an answer, or maybe its more convenient not to hear my question?
You see in the business world – we just call it what it really is – water finding its datum – market forces.
Do you work. Do it well. Shut up and get results. If you dont pls go and commit suicide in one corner, that is really how I see things.
That is how I see politicians, basically they are just like food court managers.
One thing is clear, if you dont come down here and write your history; you cannot blame us for coming here to write it for you, I call this the free market enterprise.
Life is really like that – but come down here; we will give you no quarter; no cult of veneration, no adulation and it could be said that what you say has to simply stand the test of time.
And what do I call that?
Meritocracy.
I do not have time for complacent people – I need to go for another conference call.
singaporedaddy:
This is what I mean…
I, being politically apathetic for the past 19 years of my life, TRY to come to TOC to understand alternative viewpoints, and am shot down by your reverse elitism. You asked the question…I answered it…instead of telling me why you disagree, you call me stupid.
If I am so stupid, why don’t you enlighten me without name-calling?
singaporegiddy:
Another barbed remark. Why am I not surprised?
To answer your question, healthy debate, to me, is exchange of ideas, opinions in a rational and civilised manner. I’m all for passionate debate but not when there is no debate in the first place or maybe only 10% debate and 90% ranting, name calling, sarcasm and snide remarks.
Off the top of my head, I remember a poster poking fun at Ms. Elaina without bothering to address any of her points, without attempting to engage her on an intellectual level, and simply teased her about the name of her blog. Personally, I don’t think posts like that help in any way (maybe except provide comic relief to those who find such things funny…). I can remember numerous posts like those directed against posters who have suggested something different from what the widely accepted notions here are.
Both your replies to me show how unwelcoming this place is of anyone who isn’t as ‘garang’ as the standard TOCer.
“As for trying to imagine what transpired in their mind…I am inclined to feel that for SOME posters, they might be having a bad patch in life/having a rough time/etc. and needing an outlet to vent, who better to aim than the government? I am also inclined to think that for some, having been ‘repressed’ by MSM/whatever for so many years, having discovered TOC, they are finally allowed to express themselves more freely and are thus fairly ‘trigger happy’.”
Let me tell you why you are stupid and what you wrote is even more stupid.
First of all from what you’re implying from your statement above? the sum total of the net comprises of washouts? – well, I’ve got news for you buddy, you may just find the odd ceo or the scientist slumming down here – hows that?
I dont give a shit abt your personal 19 life struggle, just remember when you post something like this again, I have every right to go after you bc you are stupid and that is a stupid statement. And let me share with you why I believe it to be so.
Have you ever considered that the people who write what they do in the internet may be the most well read and discerning people who really know what’s actually happening around them?
Did it ever cross your mind that they could even be so savy that they are perhaps the last people who may be dumbed down by the apparatus of assimilation?
So here I have given the reasons why I think you are stupid to make a stupid statement.
You need to excuse me, I really need to go for my conference call, I have to save a company from chapter 11 and I need to hypnotize the german govt to do so.
Like I said, roll with the punch.
bye.
Hi all,
Maybe it would be good to list down the agenda that we would like our PAP govt to act on and improve on.
I would suggest the following
1) Medical care
2) Free education
3) Minimum salary pegged to the standard of living
4) Transparency on the usage of CPF for investments , if any
5) Welfare for the jobless
6) Reasonably priced public housing
singaporedaddy:
Thank you for your reply. To answer your question again…yes it has crossed my mind that not everyone here is a loose cannon.
Please kindly have a look at my original post if you can spare the time. Since when did I say that I felt ALL the posters here are “washouts”?
I said SOME in caps. Do you deny the possibility of SOME posters being like what I posted – Disgruntled, unhappy, needing an outlet to vent? My post was simply in reply to Observer’s observation (no pun intended) about his friends’ views on TOC.
Again, I am only concerned about SOME posters. I understand that there are many who post cogent and well thought out posts like Gilbert, Gemami and many more.
and…
“I dont give a shit abt your personal 19 life struggle, just remember when you post something like this again, I have every right to go after you bc you are stupid and that is a stupid statement. And let me share with you why I believe it to be so.”
Who’s on the high horse now?
122) chorus
Stay with us dude. Our views may and probably differ on some aspects, but i feel that if we want to have the right to criticize the gahmen, and expect them to listen, then we have to practice it at home first. Because if we can’t practice what we preach, then we are no better than the people whom we preach to.
Unfortunately in any online blogs etc, you will meet people who may not only disagree with your views, but also how you choose to disagree. Hope you dun get discouraged too easily as you being here shows that you are not as politically apathetic as you think.
I believe you are among the ‘disillusioned’ majority that TOC wants to engage.
(Damn TOC should start paying me …lol)
Do come down to HPL this Saturday.
124) Kunta Kinte on December 1st, 2008 9.30 pm
“I would suggest the following
1) Medical care ”
Just finished watching a program on Channel 8, about helping poor folks and stuff. Realized something. What is being done about the mentally unhealthy poor people in SG? I’m sure we are know that with proper psychiatric help, many mentally unhealthy people can be made to live productive ‘normal’ lives.
In SG, you pay about $100 for an hour of counselling. I guess it’s cheaper in IMH but i think only slightly, and your appt is only once every month or something.
I’ve had a friend who had post natal blues while staying in Australia and she practically gets free counselling every other week, hourly sessions. Maybe that’s why they get lower suicide rates?
Let’s keep this in mind on the Xmas wish list.
Cheerios
116) chorus
I believe TOC knows exactly what they represent and clearly is working hard to be a forum for alternative views and discourse for matters and issues that concerned Singaporeans. To this old man here, 2 years is a short history to pass judgment. That does not mean your point of view is discredited or disregarded. You have absolute Right as an individual to see otherwise. No policies, rules or governing system in this world can dictates any person’s thinking.
I do not think people are trigger happy and whether TOC allowed rants and flames as you have cited, I will leave it for individual to make their judgment. As far as I am concerned, I accept the fact that ranting is a natural ventilating outlet for people who felt betrayed or left out. I have said it here many times (quite stale now) that I am a staunched advocate of freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech comes with social responsibilities and citizenry must know that they have to take ownership of their views expressed. I believe if there is a cause there is a reason. I too believe in this world there are always people who likes ranting other than providing constructive views in an open discourse regardless whatever form of systems a nation adopts. I lived in the states for over five years to know it the hard way and learned to accept conflicting views and ranting where otherwise rational thinking people would think that is absurdity. As I have said, it is an individual’s choice to ignore, disregard or react.
Before I continue and to prevent being accused of old rhetoric bickering, I wished to clarify that age has nothing to do with the following statement I wish to make and being older does not necessary mean being wiser. I am still learning by each day from people that can be my grand kid.
I personally find that there are plenty of rooms for improvement in Singapore system and I have no doubt that the country is slowly opening up (so I thought) comparing to what my generation of fellow Singaporeans had experienced. However, we have a long way to go and if the current “A-team” who I have reservations (now it is more apparent, in particular those who clearly displayed their insensitive, arrogance and ignorance of our suffering fellow Singaporeans, you cannot help but think we are not only not progressing but slipping into being a nation risking being labeled a country that had no respect or disregard International Human Rights.
Internally, do you feel there is enough compassion shown to our fellow suffering Singaporeans? Yes, I agree government do not owe us all a living neither do I or we owe government a living. But I do know, in the name of democracy that we voted them in to serve the country, guard the country’s interest and more importantly to serve the people and guard the interest of its people as well. Do you agree? When you look around you, visit those who live in near poverty level, you cannot help but feel the pain for them and have to reflect, something must be wrong somewhere? Why? It is quite mind boggling to think that we are the highest per capita income country amongst our South East Asian neighbors (as our ministers love to make comparison whenever they speak of progress), and yet, in our home front, we have many untold stories of our fellow Singaporeans working their butts off to try to make ends meet and we have our very own “well-off” fellow Singaporeans frowning on these very people. Are they not human? Are their lives less precious than the well-off? These are our people, our fellow brothers and sisters. If Singaporeans do not help each other, who will? Let alone the excessive packages the ministers had accorded themselves. I have no problem with that if they have showed us their worth. The results are very telling indeed. Isn’t it? If I factor all these in, it is not hard for me to empathize with our less-fortunate and dire straits fellow brothers and sisters and the occasional ranting and flames are just.
How I wished I have the capability to write more eloquently and expressed in a way that in some ways do justice to shed encouragement to my fellow brothers and sisters that there are caring enough people around that are willing to lend them a listening ears for them to share their fear and anxiety. That is the least we can do as fellow citizen. Camaraderie and Compassions sometime is a better remedy to help fellow mates than monetary help. Purr people do have dignity too.
Coming back to what started all these discourse. Within a span of 2 weeks in this site, I have so far seen three posters (partner92, eiro and Elaina) that I am foreign to make such grand entrance but with less than impression alternative views or constructive criticism and to be honest I felt educated people or not, should learned to be humble. Respect yourself and learn to respect others. May be, youngsters or younger people (those under 40) are more edgy these days and it left me wonder whether our educational system had forego mannerism teachings or was it a by product of capitalism and progress. To announce your entrance in such provocative way will not only create an impression of your arrogance and tort, it is a reflection of your characteristic as a person. Whatever views expressed will be overshadowed by this. You can be an intelligent and straight As student, a highly paid executive, a business savvy person, but to be a very successful person or if you ever sort to have a place in the political arena or hope to be like by your peers, I think there are a lot of fine tuning and polishing needed in place. Anyway, these are just my two cents worth of wisdom to share with my three fellow young Singaporeans. No intention of imposing my views on you but I thought it is the least I can and should do as a fellow Singaporean.
OK chorus, you rolled well. Very well. I will retract what I said abt you being stupid etc.
You see, I was just trying to establish a point that I wrote in No: 114 singaporedaddy on December 1st, 2008 7.07 pm, the 1,2 and 3 part.
You put up a good fight / I respect that. I do. I am sorry, if I caused offence. Will you find the opportunity to oversee my slight? Will you please?
Now I really need to go for my conference call. Its started, this has to be my last post for the day.
bye
SD
kunta kinte, interesting wish list there. My top wishes are for our national leaders to lead by example, to be accountable and answerable to the people of Singapore, to be humble and ready to listen, and to be a truly open and consultative government as SM Goh promised years ago.
While we have topped the charts worldwide and boast one of the biggest SWFs in the world , many things are also falling apart in our society. You mentioned IMH. Students as young as lower primary are receiving treatment and counselling relating to mental health and emotional well-being. More and more families are living in tents at East Coast beach, to the extent that NParks staff don’t bother chasing them away any more. Many mature workers are finding it hard getting a permanent or contract job. Families struggle with escalating costs of living, debts and yes, high prices for HDB flats. Larger sums of CPF savings are locked away for longer periods of time. More marriages are falling apart while people are hesitant to get hitched or start a family.
There’s nothing to be proud of if Singapore stays this way. Any leader worth his salt will do well to look at society beyond the GDP and ask searching questions about what’s really good for the nation and what Singaporeans really want.
Andrew,
Perfect article. You just poke them on their head hard, esp PM! The gahmen should be ashamed of themselves.
FG
I can’t believe it that Elaina could write such a post. Tell me you are just ranting.
More money = More competency ?
I only see Competency in TaiJi, Shifting blame, screwing the little people when thing go wrong. Competency is not only about getting thing done, it is about responsibility and accountability too without which competency is nothing.
OH MY GOD ! Can she reveals to us who among the 82 of the PAP MPs who share the same mentality as her ?
She will a A+ by the PM.
From
http://youngpapblog.blogspot.com/2007/03/bill-gatesgeorge-sorosmother-theresa.html
http://www.thevoiddeck.org/index.php?itemid=277
Not only she get shot down here, she get show down in the above two sites.
“Bill Gates+George Soros+Mother Theresa – How Much $$
Posted by elaina olivia chong at 4:56 PM
Money is the proverbial carrot. No matter how many people put themselves on the moral high ground, Money still talks for most others. If you want to get a job done you can’t do well yourself, pay some one well to do it well. If you want to get a job superbly well done, pay superbly more. Similarly, if we want Singapore to stay on the “Best Of” world list for a lot of things, we jolly well got to pay top dollar for the best people who can keep us right up there.
I can’t see why some forumers in our local chatrooms are questioning Ministerial pay rises and pegging our Minister’s pay to those in other countries. Spore isn’t like many other economies like the States, Britain or even Hong Kong where their economies can still remain alive even if their politicians are not making the best decisions. Not only are these economies self sufficient, they have people resources – to the extent where Supply far Exceeds Demand for geniuses at the top.
In many of these first world nations (whose Ministers’ pays have been “pegged” to ours), their economic engines are matured and almost self-piloting. These governments have inherited the fruits of their political forefathers and are now able to concentrate on improving the social and non-economic welfares of its peoples and say, spend time to build international relations with countries like us.
This government put Singapore, a country with no resources, with no historical ties or allies to begin with, on the world map in less than half a century. But will this last forever?
It takes more than a few good men to make a tiny red dot like Singapore a shining star it is today. Not an easy feat, and is not a task that every man on the street can do. Only the very best in the 4-5million we have, can.
Everyday is a new challenge for Singapore to stay competitive and ahead of economies thousands of times our size. If Ministers at the top stop what their doing; or aren’t clever enough to devise policies to keep us ahead of the global league, our economy will crumble. There’s no two ways about it. Some one has got to do it and able to do it very well.
Today, we have the PAP with a number of good men. Will we have the same people tomorrow and always? I’m not sure. I find it rather myopic and sadly presumptuous for so many of these forumers to assume that Singapore is forever going to be where it is, and that we will forever have exceptional geniuses willing to throw their lives to keep Singapore on its feet.
How many of our capable Singaporeans are willing to turn away high paying expatriate positions overseas? And choose instead, to stay home in Singapore, hold arms to protect and ensure the economic comforts for our families and posterity?
One of the ways and I’m not saying it is the only way, is to pay for them and pay them very well . To help keep them in Singapore, attract them into civil service or the PAP where they will join the “economic militia” and keep the Singapore flag flying high for a very long time
The life of a Minister is not attractive. How many are willing to sacrifice every evening either at Meet the People Sessions, chairing Review Committees and carrying another baby in a HDB kopitiam even on precious weekends?
A platoon with the acumen of Bill Gates, risk appetite of George Soros and the heart of Mother Theresa, I would think. And the compensation? Priceless. Haven’t we all heard this all too often, “Pay Peanuts Get Monkeys”.
All that matters to me is for Singapore to stay ahead of the game becuase I choose to stay here. We sorely need more than a few Good Men to continue serving at the top so that our economy will continue its bull run. With a flourishing economy, Ministerial pay increments will pale in comparison to the prosperities and fortunes Singapore will be able to bring to its people. Because then, the man on their street will get his pay raise too.”
Not interested in this whole discussion about Elaina but would like to give my impression of her and all her other pro-government colleagues.
I think it’s fine to give your perspectives in any cyberspace. Problem is, these people tend to provoke immense dislike from others by their sheer arrogant and shallow defence of their stand. Most of them exhibit a lack in depth of understanding and lack of critical thinking skills. Most regurgitate from ST.
If htey are PAP’s idea of reaching out to us to connect, I think I am more worried about Singapore and more determined to vote against the ruling party.
Perhaps, their mission is just to stir up emotions and split netizens into different camps. Divide and conquer.
If so, this is really naive of the government. Very tragic for us. If Singaporeans are mature enough to want to engage the government, the least it should not do is to either keep total silence (like in the minibond or the TC saga) or send out trolls like these YPAP members.
Hi singaporedaddy and chorus,
In fairness, I must agree with chorus on the ‘stupid statement’ issue. I say this because I am an example of one who had fallen into the category described by chorus. I am glad that singaporedaddy has shown us how to be gracious with his mature act in conceding that he had mis-read or misunderstood chorus’s post. We can all learn from this as we too grow in maturity while discussing issues in public forums.
Now, why I agree with chorus. When I entered TOC, I was trigger happy too. It felt so good to finally stumble onto a site where I can practically vent my pent-up frustrations and anger and, yes; with most of it aimed at the government. I have since ‘moved on’ because that was something I needed to do and I must admit that occassionally I will still be doing that bit of it to relieve what I cannot aptly put into words.
This is why I have always called for a stay-of-execution regards to our fellow posters who rant and rave seemingly for no comprehensible reasons. One does not need a reason to rant in blogosphere. This we have to realise.
Now for the ’1 in 5′ subject. All I can say is that when one enters a blogsite it is plain stupidity (it is) to expect to see & hear all that you want to see & hear 5 times out of 5. You’re lucky if you get 1 out of 5 even. Like what Observer (SG-HK) has correctly mentioned; it is up to the individual to make his own judgement.
I remembered that I had wanted TOC to set some guidelines and ob parameters some time back and it was Observer (SG-HK) who made me see the reasons why this should not be done. I have since agreed with him and this is why I am hoping that cyber-friends like Gilbert will also see that this is not a good direction to take.
We are now getting some participation from mainstream voices and so far, these voices have made their entrances in very loud, arrogant and demeaning fashion. We respect their choices of entries but this does not mean we have to accept them. We have to retain our rights to rebut, rebuke and return them to their proper places. This, they have to understand.
An example was panther92. Being young, it was good of him to admit that his entrance to one of the thread had set the negative environment in which he found himself struggling to rectify.
Another is Elaina which I have already addressed earlier and many have also done the same.
Are we trying to chase them away? Definitely not. Some have entered into more serious discussions with fellow bloggers after the initial hoo-haas. This is good but it does not mean that the gongs and cymbals have to be kept away for good. They are as necessary as the participants in this sort of cyber-coffeeshop.
Let us then not set any ob markers than the usual language, race and religious ones. Let us allow TOC to evolve and not to nitpick on them whenever there is a loud entry by a newbie.
More importantly, let them defend themselves by their writings. Let them discern for themselves what TOC is all about. TOC must not change for any individual or groups of individuals.
This is the beauty of TOC which has been able to continue to attract so many participants in these past two short years.
aiyoyo
not sure why I no get reply from TOC (when I email days back)..
aiyoyo
Dear Singaporedaddy of the brotherhood of nod
“Any other way is just a lousy system. You see it is very simple, CONFLICT; if channeled properly is an opportunity to improve.
The medieval Europeans for example fought over everything from Copernican theory to such things as where is true magnetic north; in some cases; they even went to war, but look at the luminaries they produced; martin luther, Leonardo da vinci, Michelangelo, Newton and the list goes on and on.
The only people in Europe who didn’t shed one single drop of blood fighting bc they considered themselves above the fray; were the Swiss. They incidentally were also the father of the secret police; and if you fight they will put you in jail; you could say they were the most conflict adverse people on this planet. Even when Hitler came into power and the rest of Europe said “join us,” they the Swiss said, “this doesn’t involve us, we want nothing to do with this”; and pray tell; what was their single greatest invention to the human race?
The cuckoo clock……Yes, yes, yes.
Like I said, it is not good, it breeds complacency and complacent people can do nothing – absolutely nothing bc capable people will never ever join them. ”
You certainly have a way with words. You do. Why am I not surprised by this. When did we ever try to fight you any of you?
If CONFLICT is so good then what do you make of what has recently transpired in Mumbai. Tell me in what way did that produce your so called “good.”
And if you look at Taiwan. Once again in what way do parliamentarians who promote CONFLICT by shout ing insults and abuse at each across the floor produce the so called good.
I am not a PAP supporter but what I can say is what the PM advanced in his recent party speech concerning the merits of a one party system will be a better producer of “good.”
No one denies in such times, we desperately need:
-strong government
-decisiveness
-speed
-unity
To successfully see us through this economic crisis.
Even you have to agree with that Singaporedaddy.
As I said, I am not here to pick a fight with the brotherhood. Erio was stupid enough to do that and it is clear you people have ratcheted and up the ante.
Let us all try to live and let live. I too agree with what gilbert hopes for, a day when we will be able to see mp’s in toc like ypap site and when that day comes, I too will like to be able to personally sit down with people such as you and darkness, who I have heard so much abt and is something of a legend in the gaming world.
Let us unite together
Hi gemami,
“I am glad that singaporedaddy has shown us how to be gracious with his mature act in conceding that he had mis-read or misunderstood chorus’s post.”
Stop being such a first class boot licker. Singaporedaddy did what he did to chorus very much in a way a man strips another man naked and runs him down for the sheer sport of it. Chorus was never any match against sd. He never stood a chance in hell.
This is what the brotherhood regularly do to their own kind. This is what he means by skill-at-arms. I think.
If someone screws up in brotherhood land they all gather in a circle and the person has to commit suicide. Then they all divide his credits.
Its tribal and barbaric. And it comes from their nomadic heritage. Nothing more than a higher form of survival of the fittest.
They make a big brouhaha of their sportmanship in the gaming world that everyone knows abt it.
But what they dont tell us. Its not so much to protect all of us. Rather without it, I suspect they would even kill themselves very much like dog bite dog. That is why sportsmanship is promoted and even worshipped on the altar. So strictly is this rule enforced. Should anyone kill one of them, the first question they will ask is was it a fair fight? If it was the victor takes all the property and titles of the dead. If it was not a fair fight. They will burn every house and kill everyone in the village and turn it into a lake in the virtual. They will send a clear message to all.
But make no doubt, it is through the instrument of fear that they solicit compliance.
How can so few men otherwise rule over such a large population in the virtual?
They must be like these people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2agLCjMY7og
But this is not a civilized way. It is brutal and it is barbaric. And it is certainly not progress of the kind that will serve us well.
The only way to deal with this fellow is to get 20 of the best scholars let him have a go with them and after that, I am sure, he would be just in the mood for humble pie.
Gee, Lazarus,
You do see things from the other side of the tomb (pun intended).
Unfortunately, I prefer to see things as they appear and unfold before my eyes. I have seen enough of the normal kind who do not give two hoots about plain courtesy and to retreat when a mistake is admited. To me, it’s as plain and simple at that.
Do I know or even care if the brotherhood wear boots or slippers? You know the answer, I don’t.
Good Morning Lazarus,
Thank you for sharing with us all your nice fairytale.
“The only way to deal with this fellow is to get 20 of the best scholars let him have a go with them and after that, I am sure, he would be just in the mood for humble pie.”
Mmmmmmh……20 is nice round even number isn’t it? 1 against 20 (tick tock tick tock) ………Yes, it will do very nicely, I think.
I accept.
SD (Internet liaison officer of the brotherhood)
Paying top dollars for top talents is indisputable in the private sector. They are held accountable personally, subject to market forces and dismissal without pensions. For any government to adopt the same principles of remuneration as the private sector, it has to subject itself to the same terms of responsibility, accountability and transparency. For a government to enjoy private sector pays without the associated liabilities is simply manipulating the throne of monopoly at the expense of the people.
Eaxample:
**Ministers enjoy private sector pays and will still enjoy pensions when they retire. Is this correct? Acceptable? Justified? Approved by majority?
TOC is a platform for open discussion between all parties – pro, anti or neutral. It is also opened to all to express their opinions, convictions, etc. Most importantly, it is opened to all strata of Singaporeans. Therefore, those who choose to express themselves here must be prepared for others’ feedback as well. Different levels and styles of expressions are to be expected. The fundamental point is whether one is prepared to engage in civil exchanges, defends one’s position/opinions, etc.
Example:
Regurgitating ST’s reports pertaining to governance is the least credible argument to support one’s position.
The call to express alternative solutions for PAP here is simply out of touch. We don’t pay taxes to tell the govt what to do or did not do. They are deemed to know what not to do. Rather, we held the govt responsible and accountable for their incapabilities, especially, when they ridiculously justified their own inflated pays. There are alternatives which we can adopt to make Singapore a better place for all. It will come from a NON-PAP party since PAP cannot undo what it has wrongly done. Doing so just proves that PAP has been wrong.
Example:
The unjustified and unnecessary GST increase to 7%.
For those with the conviction to effect positive changes in S’pore, the most viable option is to volunteer your time, energy and brain to whichever political party that you believe in. The rest will just fall into place in due course.
“122) chorus on December 1st, 2008 9.15 pm
Another barbed remark. Why am I not surprised?
To answer your question, healthy debate, to me, is exchange of ideas, opinions in a rational and civilised manner. I’m all for passionate debate but not when there is no debate in the first place or maybe only 10% debate and 90% ranting, name calling, sarcasm and snide remarks.”
Good that you are composed. In this site, all of us should be prepared for all this. This is raw deep-from-the-heart exchange without peppering with diplomatic ‘civilised’ niceties.
Sieve through all the unnecessary noise and you will find the nugget of golden ‘healthy’ information hidden behind all this ranting, name calling, sarcasm and snide remarks. Get close (not via proxy) to the ground of the other side and you will understand. If you know what I mean. You will never understand the gravity of pain unless you have experienced pain yourself.
A lot of times, the verdict of the grand debate has already been dispensed.
Lazarus,
One hour is all I can spare in the evening. That should be enough to bag your 20 supermen.
Not this week. Next week.
Shall we say…. we go rota and structure it as an open debate, no script, no structure, anything goes, straight from the hip, answer must be given within 10 min intervals – I have 3 shots and so do you – you ask one question, I repond and so on and so forth and we will just make the rules as we go along.
You win I will pack up my barang go and never ever show my face here again. I win and you come up with a public apology on what you have just written – hows that?
The people here decide who is the winner. TOC can even poll it? I will accept the results.
You have my word on this.
Give me your reply before 12 midnight here tonite.
Think! One against twenty – how could you possibly lose?
SD (Internet liaison officer of the brotherhood)
My dear Joshua of 118,
wearing spandex with an “L’ sign emblazon across the chest, and a cape, if I may add, is the exclusive domain of the Letterman of The Electric Company :)
Anyway, have fun, all of you who are able to meet this Sat at the Superheroes gathering. Logicalman has to nanny his kids, and he will be washing spandex alright.
My dear netizens,
People like Lazarus & motley crew are what I term the proverbial hello-bang-and bye bye crowd.
You all notice one thing; when they cannot win in the level playing field; they will use disinformation and lies to further their ends.
And it’s always the same story, the whole world is not ready for their gospel; they’re always ahead of the human race. Only they see the world with a measure of unparalleled clarity; others are blind and flaying; only they are so open minded (till their brains are spilling out) to understand the complexities of our age yada yada yada yada yada yada.
But when comes right down to the rubber meets the road what usually happens?
Like I said, it’s always the hello-bang-and bye bye story:
(1)They go online spout their 7 habits of highly obese cake eaters gospel.
(2)The blogo locomotive runs over them a few times to spare, till they’re like roti prata (they wonder why?)
(3)They say “Oh this is a brutish and feral place, poor sods, they are not ready for my message.” – bye bye, so long adieu, sweet rhapsody of remembrance of things past. How sad (out comes the violin)
My fellow netizens, wonder no more. No mystery here. No da vinci code. It’s the same story ALL the time albeit in varying lines only; a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing beyond the words at a back of a chewing gum wrapper.
And here you need to ask yourself; WHY is it ONLY they cannot seem to prosper online?
Why have they consistently failed to gainfully make full use of the internet in the way the Obama’s of this world have hammered millions of keyboards into ploughshares?
Why my friends?
Why is it the same litany of woes; the world doesn’t understand me; the world is a terrible and brutal place? It needs to be nicer and more polite to me? We all need to go around in starched collars and sip our soup instead of slurp it down?
Why my friends?
Because that is the way of complacent and supine people; and the case is really not so different from the yarn of possibilities and impossibilities; where once upon a time, two shoe salesmen were sent to the dark continent of African during the turn of the last century;
The first salesman on arriving; telegraphed his company and said, “no point sending any shoes here; they’re all barefoot here. I am going back to England.”
A month later; another salesman was sent and he sent the following message: “Send as many shoes as you can! They’re all barefoot here. I am staying here in Africa.”
This my friends is the long and short of it all. I give you the facts, you all decide.
SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)
Hi All Here,
Let’s not get over heated here. It’s not worth it anyway. It’s jus ta site that we visited now and then to air our views. No point going to meet and have a “fight” over things. Love and forbearance overcome all barriers.
We are all good people who may have love our country too much to let it go down the drain.
People either pro or anti establishment just want to do something constructive for our country here. If we fight against each other will good will this bring to our country?
I have read all your posts and to me all are correct and have their own perspective.
Some will bring in their “MSM” quotes others anti-PAP ones. So be it – there is no right or wrong here. We can’t effect any changes anyway with what we have written.
For me, I have always advocated mutual respect for all views mentioned. And love for mankind regardless of your stance. If someone disagreedwith me, so be it. If others agreed with me, so be it. There is no use getting and others here. It is just not worth it.
I always remember before I post, several things go through my mind:
1. Is what I post constructive and bring benefit to the readers?
2. Is it negative or discouraging to others who read it?
3. Does it reflect my current mood? I know some who have a bad day will come in and blast away (this is not wrong though, sadly I do it sometimes also)
4. Do my post brings the discussion to a higher level?
5. Do I attack others’ views incessantly?
I try to kep to these few principles wheneevr I post as if not I rather remind quiet.
Take care all. Trust me, what that have transpired here (the flare up) is not helpful nor engaging for all. We should accept and forbear one another for a better Singapore.
Hi Gilbert,
Thanks for your very timely clarion call but I must say that it will sadly go very much unheeded.
Character assassinations will be here to stay and there is nothing we can do about it except to remind each other once in a while to behave.
However, we cannot stop the one being assassinated to rise up and challenge the defamatory remarks that goes beyond the topic of discussion. In this instance, Lazarus has gone way below the belt. If he claimed to know the brotherhood that well as to be able to describe the intricacies of its management, then he ought to have well realised that he would be attacking the family members of singaporedaddy.
I am certain he won’t like it if anyone were to say nasty things about his mother, father and siblings. He would surely throw down the gauntlet for his accusers to take it up.
I too have differing opinions to those expressed by sd on some issues and I believe we have been able to discuss things in a civilised manner and to state our stands. There’s all to it.
Perhaps someone ought to write a book on online behaviours – what to and not to do. Maybe can make some money with it too.
While we are on the subject on recruiting the best “talent” and paying top dollar as the panacea for all problems, here’s something from an HR perspective that I got from Lucky Tan’s blog, which sadly sounds eeriely familiar and bears repeating:
http://resources.greatplacetowork.com/article/pdf/warfortalent.pdf
What happens in a war for talent?
There is:
• An invariable emphasis on individual performance (rewarding the individual stars), thereby diminishing teamwork, creating destructive internal competition, and retarding learning and the spread of bestpractices inside the company;
.
• A tendency to glorify the talents of those outside the company and downplay the skills and abilities of insiders, leading to a loss ofmotivation on the part of those inside the firm and to their turnover(thereby ensuring that the recruiting challenge will be even greater asthe company tries to replace those that has inadvertently sent packingelsewhere);
.
• The creation of a self-fulfilling prophecy where those labeled as lessable become less able because they are asked to do less, given fewerresources, training, and mentoring, and become discouraged, in theprocess ensuring that the organization has way too many people whoare in the process of dropping out of the competitive fray;
.
• A deemphasis on fixing the systemic, cultural, and business process issues that are invariably much more important for enhancingperformance, as the company seeks success solely through getting the right people in the door;
.
• And finally, the development of an elitist, arrogant attitude—once you have successfully competed in the war for talent, you have the best people—an attitude that makes building a wise organization almost impossible; in wise organizations, people know that they know and they know what they don’t know. Companies that think they are winning thewar for talent think they are so full of smart people that they know everything!”
Well, what you said is fair for a reasonable people for a reasonble purpose for a reasonable period.
Just to share with you.
A few years back, WDA was formed to help with the employment. One of its big advantages, was that it was supposed to be in a better position, better equipped and so on, so forth.
I had more than 15 yrs working experience on computers, hardware, doing NTLP courses etc.
In 2005, someone from WDA – offered me a job and the last question she ask – if I am capable or know anything about computer.
Well, you decide if my opening statement is valid ?
hahaha. hilarious. lets see, you call his whole family ‘barbarians ‘ ‘tribal” ‘dog eaters’ which all amounts to a list of pejorative terms for an uncivilized person. Then you end it all by posting a youtube clip to give us all an idea of how his family looks like. And since they are hardly the Bradey bunch but more like a cross between bob marley and the lizard of the year and you then when everyone thinks that’s enough, you threaten him???
You have to the out of your mind.
The way I see it this debate should take place. contrary to what gilbert says, I dont see anything remotely confrontational abt it. Infact it seems to be a very civilized way of settling things and clearing up the misunderstanding. I am sure, I speak for many who will certainly look forward to such an event with great anticipation, as it will certainly be something new to us all online.
I will certainly return back here again bfr midnight to check things out. :)
………can’t wait for the 20 promised scholars…..zzzzzzzz…….