I’ll bet my last dollar, this matter will be very skillfully Side Stepped by the PM.

Pointless…
Unless there’s a Obama of our own… unfortunately not.

I can’t access Annex 2. Is the link working?

Is there any mention of the legal entrapment which arises from the fact that the same contract that states the RM is the financial advisor is also the same contract for sales of investment product? This means the RM actually gave financial advisor before establishing himself as a financial advisor legally.

im throwing in my 2 cents as well..and after many years observation…his royal arrogance will simply dump it into the bin( No offence intended. Good work ! Mr. Tan) Reason? better save my breath

Could not agree more with this statement, “But disclosure by itself is not enough. It must be accompanied by investor education. Investors have to understand and use the information provided to them. They must learn to make sense of this information and use it to look after their own interests. ” This logic should also be applicable to the mortgage loans dished out by the various banks.

On urgent issue like this, isn’t it the duty of the Govt to look
into the matter without any appeal or prodding from citizens?
So, if there is not action by concerned citizens, then the govt would
“bo chap” ?
I tend to agreed with C J. Already we have heard what his father
has said on this matter.
While the HK govt acts after the interest of the people, here the govt
looks after the interest of the establishments and themselves

Good work Mr. Tan Kin Lian.

May be PM Lee is deaf or half blind?

PM where got time for TKL …

He is now busy with fixing and buying things.

This is what the PM will do when the letter reaches his hands.

1. He will read it.
2. He will scratch his head.
3. He will ask daddy “how”.
4. Daddy will tell him not to worry because he had, only last week, came out to tell Singaporeans that none of the investors went in blindly when they made their decisions to invest. Not even the illiterate old bums.
5. Daddy will tell him to read the letter again, and if need be, get a group of lawyers to see if there is anything in the letter that can be, well, fixed.

The letter won’t go straight into the dustbin if there is money to be made from it. Don’t you agree?

My concern is towards Mr Tan Kin Lian;
If you are TOO ‘vocal’, and you pulled out too many words, one day they will haul you to court just like the many who were, ‘too vocal’.

Remember well, they cannot take criticisms at all.

Come on! How could Tan KL be dragged to court at the whim and fancy of our dear leader? Pinch yourself and remember we are in First World SG and not any back water republic.

Hi,

Indeed this is admirable, but if you are not careful, the ambition may very well you.

Let me explain why nothing substantive can possibly emerge from all this – my feel is its important to set the right expectation.

Firstly, the crisis accounting for all these financial investments turning to mud is NO longer just confined to the banks /investors.

Actuality suggest it has effectively morphed – like malignant cancer, the “melt down” contagion has spread to cover new areas to even affect automobile manufacturers, semi-conductor firms, tampon producers, casinos and resort operators and may well even affect your local uncle who runs a bicycle repair shop.

How might this affect MAS response; if MAS takes a pro-active role to intervene too aggressively on the part of minibond investors; they need to be mindful they DON’T rewrite the rules of the free market economy.

MAS has to be very careful NOT to exceed their remit (intra vires). We need to be crystal clear here; we are not talking about whether Ah Kong or Ah Ma shouldn’t get back their savings; as much as we are discussing what governments should ordinary do and not do; if they are too remain government; MAS should NOT color or gloss over the legal text, precedent and doctrinal principle of caveat emptor; that is a matter that is clearly not part of their ambit, so if they overstate the case; they will effectively lay the foundation for others to claim on roughly the same ground – that they too may not have had the benefit of foreknowledge to make an informed decision. And if that happens; you need to ask yourself where will the free market be? Who will pay for all this at the end of the day?

Ultimately, whatever the outcome ALWAYS bear in mind, we are not talking about whether pensioners have the right to close the mythical wheel of life jin-yi-huan-xiang style only we need to be cut glass clear and precise here: do we really want governments to get directly involved in businesses?

If government is like warren buffet or George Soros, then I say carry on lah. But always bear in mind governments have a lousy track record when it comes to running enterprise, so what you suggesting here in the long run? That people who have absolutely no entrepreneurial imagination should come in and set the instructional and directional set points to tell businessmen how to prosper and define organizational success? Is this what you are proposing? Tell me in what way would that inure the current free market system with increased dynamism and verve? How will that even solve any of our problems?

The way I see it – Governments already have too big a hand in businesses; be it in foolishly centralizing wealth in mega firms such as Temasek, GIC etc. Or by even allowing town councils to play Donald Trump with conservatory floating funds – to bank rolling Philip Yeo’s half baked Byzantine plans to turn Singapore into a bio-polis.

This of course who lead us all to consider; whether government is the problem or the solution?

OK, I have to go for another conference call now, tmr we will talk again.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

I think Mr. Tan is a living example of how a retiree in Singapore can contribute to society. The rest of Singapore can learn a thing or two from elderlys like him who made the effort using their free time to help the rest of the people. If more old people can stand up for what they feel is right, instead of spending time chit-chatting, reading paper, and drinking tea, I am sure Singapore will be a more vibrant society.

I hope to see old people in singapore organise a protest walk (from Chinatown – Hong Lim to Padang) to against rising inflation and costs of living.

Tan KL’s blog posted MAS’s reply.

http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/11/dear-mr-tan-i-refer-to-your-emails.html#links

It is one of those saying-something-but-telling-nothing replies.

Utterly disappointing!

That garman tatic…dragging…till it disappear! you guys remember..everytime there is a price increase, they will let you talk, discuss, complain….they statetime will show…about two weeks…all SHUT UP!!! No more discussion!!! And assume eveybody forget liao….and live goes on!

You already have an Obama in TKL and to encourage others to follow suit and to “screw up your courage to the sticking place”, I append below Obama’s philosophy in life that led him to do the impossible and unthinkable:

“Our deepest fears is not that we are inadequate,
Our deepest fears is that we are powerful beyond measure.
It is our light, not darkness, that most frightens us,
We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, georgeous, talented, and fabulous?
Actually, who are you not to be?
You are a child of God.
Your playing small doesn’t serve the world.
There’s nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won’t feel
insecure around you.
We are all meant to shine, as children do
We are born to make manifest the glory of God that is within us.
It’s not just in some of us, it’s in everyone.
And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people
permission to do the same.
As we are liberated from our own fears, our presence automatically liberates
others” OBAMA.

I’m surprised that the MAS under the chairmanship of SM GCT and purview of the PM, two very brilliant scholars and talented ministers, is taking such a long time to respond to a simple Petition Letter from victims of structured notes scandals.

I presume the doings of the government’s public banks and financial institutions are causing a catastrophi backlash to its integrity, transparency and accountability. Their delayed response and/or inaction will do the government more harm than good to its claim of making SIN the financial hub in Asia and its boast of efficiency and infallibility. Or are the ministers’ and CEOs’ pockets loaded with millions of dollars paychecks that they feel too heavy to get up to do anything? COME ON SINGAPORE!

I believe most Singaporeans are resilient and determined to relentlessly pursue their goals to make things right and have their rights protected against unscrupulous investment juggernauts and kingpins. This has happened on Wall Street because of Alan Greenspan’s failed policies regulating the doings on Wall Street and other financial institutions across the nation. Hence, the financial, ABCP and mortgage tsunami swept across not only Main Street but across oceans and continents of the globe.

12) singaporedaddy

How might this affect MAS response; if MAS takes a pro-active role to intervene too aggressively on the part of minibond investors; they need to be mindful they DON’T rewrite the rules of the free market economy.

When LHL, as chairman of MAS, he did say,

” We have shifted from a merit-based supervisory approach to a disclosure-based approach that emphasises market discipline to incentivise financial institutions to conduct their business in a sound, efficient, and professional manner.

By so doing, he had anticipated the dangers that comes along with the disclosure-based approach.

By the self-admitted knowledge of such dangers, as quoted above, he must surely have some pre-emptive solutions by the side where he can immediately use should his fears became real. And, indeed, his fears became real and he now conveniently back-tracks.

One thing we have learned from this episode is we now know there were not pre-emptive solutions in the bag all along.

Another thing we have learned is that this PM cannot be trusted to keep his word.

To preserve investor confidence, penalties for transgressions must be swift and appropriate. MAS now has the power to investigate and bring a court action for market misconduct under the new civil penalty regime. This will complement the existing criminal penalty regime administered by CAD.”

In short, and in answer to your question, there is no doubt in my mind that the govt is the problem.

Mr Tan Kin Lian,
I salute you for your great effort. Your action definitely speak louder than the gahmens’ words.

As usual, lt turns out that MAS’s solution to solving the problem is simply to move on, with the final signal hint by MM Lee’s remark. Always the same old Standard Operating Procedure. When MM Lee make the final remark as in past cases, it always mean move on. Now, the investors should wake up to see the kind of government they have voted. It only when it hurt them that they begin to see beyond the surface.

Well done, TKL!!

I am not surprised by the government’s inaction. We should continue to apply pressure just for the government to do the right thing.

Now how world class is this? So sad!!

Hi guys,
let’s not be so negative (even though we truly know the outcome), at least we can do well to force the government to act for the interest of citizen. Every “move on” make by the government over honest mistake means they will continue to take the citizen for granted. It is obvious that this gov want to simply move on and want the investors to forget all this issues by playing with time. Do not concede to such tactics.
Hopefully, the HK gov begin to take legal action against DBS swiftyly and seriously threaten to suspend the bank’s license, this will create international awareness and force our inept gov to act on interest of the investors.

I asking if it is possible for investors to fight the lawsuit outside Singapore. I think it has a better chance of winning since it is the outside the jurdication of the local court. Why I say that ? Since MM Lee make his statement and therefore it must be held as the same stance in the court as usual. His statement become the truth in court. We know very well how partial can our court be, and now that Lee land his support for CAVEAT EMPTOR, how can the investors expect to win in local court ? If the investors win, it means Lee’s words cannot be true, if they lost, it means that Lee’s words are always the truth.

Is it possible for investors here to work with Hong Kong gov rather than Singapore gov to fight for compensation and justice ?

Daniel is right.

Tan Kin Lian has been doing a great service for Singapore and Singaporeans.

I wonder if it is too much for one man to handle all sorts of issues. I also wonder if there are others out there who may be able to take up issues like TKL has been doing.

Imagine if we have a doctor, nurse or healthcare professional to take up health issues, or, a businessman to take up issues on business etc. What I am driving at is for professionals in their own fields of expertise to stand out and serve the people the way TKL is doing.

It is civilize, harmless and very effective – even when it seems like the govt is not listening. Believe me, they are listening and cannot afford to ignore the voices here in TOC or any other blog sites.

Step forward anyone?

14) GoodSingaporean on November 12th, 2008 3.05 pm +0 That garman tatic…dragging…till it disappear! you guys remember..everytime there is a price increase, they will let you talk, discuss, complain….they statetime will show…about two weeks…all SHUT UP!!! No more discussion!!! And assume eveybody forget liao….and live goes on!

Yes I agree with you and I have observed this garment always used this same trick for many times over. So, I suggest TOC to keep on reminding the people of what issues are still not been addressed by the garment before they got away and pretend nothing happened. I also notice apart from this delay tactic, they will use distraction tactics too, so singaporeans be careful of this old fox and his party can do just anything and everything to make the citizens keep paying them millions and millions of $$$$ flowing to their pockets.

Mr Tan Kin Lian,

I support you too! Its a great pity to see that the people who can really do something substantive, prefer not to get involved. I dont wish to finger anyone but all of us know who they are, their org starts with “B” and their leader is a man who goes blink when you dont pay your electricity bills.

If they came in, I will have no doubt some of these ministers will just go on annual leave very suddenly. It would just go (1) (2) and (3) and it wouldnt be very polite either. They will go for 10 and they will take 9. Bear in mind, these were exactly the same people who once openly threatened Sony for banning them from their game. And when the HK govt tried to interfere, they told them, if you do this or that, we will tell the chinese to hammer you, so that proves they are not afraid of conflict. The issue is whether, they want to help or not that is all.

I just want to ask singaporedaddy why

“MAS has to be very careful NOT to exceed their remit (intra vires). We need to be crystal clear here; we are not talking about whether Ah Kong or Ah Ma shouldn’t get back their savings; as much as we are discussing what governments should ordinary do and not do; if they are too remain government; MAS should NOT color or gloss over the legal text, precedent and doctrinal principle of caveat emptor; that is a matter that is clearly not part of their ambit, so if they overstate the case; they will effectively lay the foundation for others to claim on roughly the same ground – that they too may not have had the benefit of foreknowledge to make an informed decision. And if that happens; you need to ask yourself where will the free market be? Who will pay for all this at the end of the day?

Ultimately, whatever the outcome ALWAYS bear in mind, we are not talking about whether pensioners have the right to close the mythical wheel of life jin-yi-huan-xiang style only we need to be cut glass clear and precise here: do we really want governments to get directly involved in businesses? ”

Tell me, isn’t it because private enterprises CANNOT regulate themselves that is why govt seems to need to come in these days> Hello, knock, knock have you read recently govts all round the whole are going into businesses big time!

Dear Tan Kin Lian,

I admire your persistence in fighting the cause of the investors. On behalf of Singapore, I thank you.

But you must realise that your petition represents only 1 side of the issue. There is a whole spectrum of opinion on where the fault lies and what is the appropriate action to take. MM’s position represents one extreme and those who call for full compensation and full-blown CAD/MAS investigation the other.

It is difficult to hold a politician to his words as he chose those words that are expedient to his purposes on that occasion. It is not expected that he will do as he promised as the situation may have changed and many other considerations may take precedence. Sadly, that is how politics work in the real world.

Petitions, citizen activism and internet discussions do not wield any power in the real sense. If we are passionate in our beliefs and love for the nation, we should seriously consider entering politics. Only with political power can we make real changes.

Dear gemami, what you are suggesting in post #22 is in effect the setting up of a political party with the various shadow portfolios. Perhaps Mr Tan Kin Lian may be interested in such a venture.

Hi 4.42 pm

“Tell me, isn’t it because private enterprises CANNOT regulate themselves that is why govt seems to need to come in these days..”

Let me put it this way. What is the role of government? The way I see it, the whole idea of government is a no brainer; make sure blinking light bulbs are regularly replaced, rubbish gets disposed and law and order is humming. Good universal education along with health care is also good, but certainly no portraits of heads of state larger than a postage stamp. And definitely no cult of veneration and certainly not government in business!

If we endorse the role of government further than that, then its conceivable, the whole idea of government and citizenry will break down; that’s why some countries end up with repressive and overbearing governments, they think governments can do everything from modulating the weather to making rain.

As a consequence government tells them what to think, how to act and is it such a wonder as time goes on, many even end up putting their hands up when they need to go to toilet breaks.

Tell me is this the sort of government you want? Or do you want emancipation? Do you want to be empowered with the whole idea of choice and freewill?

But always bear in mind, the blessing comes with the curse; if you want free will and choice, then I say you have to buy into the idea; one of responsible for ones acts and omissions.

Another thing, so what if the US or the Icelandic govt are bailing out their hemorrhaging businesses; tell me since when did the idea “someone else in the world is doing something” ever qualify as a premise to say that is the right thing to do? If you want to debate the issue intelligently instead of coming across as really dumb; then you would also need to concede the counter argument, not everyone is in favor of governments stepping in to bail out fat cat firms who got themselves into this fix. And how did they dig such a hole in the first place? Well for one they gave themselves big fat salaries and they even laced it with creamy bonuses and stock options along with private jets and limousines – why should these firms be bailed out?????????????????????? Why should they be rewarded for making lousy business decisions?????????? Tell me since when in time memorial did the free market enterprise operate according to those lines??????????

You see if you really care to peruse around; here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4sLx5O_3M0

There are ALWAYS two sides to the argument; you need to ask yourself; which side of the line you want to stand on?

As for your wild statements concerning Sony Corp and the HKSAR, I am not in a position to confirm or deny those statement – but we have a right to protect our economic interest in the virtual.

Have a nice evening.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

“If we endorse the role of government further than that, then its conceivable, the whole idea of government and citizenry will break down; that’s why some countries end up with repressive and overbearing governments, they think governments can do everything from modulating the weather to making rain.

As a consequence government tells them what to think, how to act and is it such a wonder as time goes on, many even end up putting their hands up when they need to go to toilet breaks.”

Well said, singaporedaddy. If they (gahmen) want a hand-off approach, then they must also allow aggrieved parties to have a free hand (of course, not in the violent criminal sense) to act for themselves. This includes embarrassing protests and demostrations to exert their own brand of pressure.

The whole environment must not be skewed in favour of the “alleged offending party” to carry on business as usual where the aggrieved parties are not given the opportunity to congregate so as to present a more united front as against big businesses which already have all the ‘right resources’ behind them to deal with such eventuality.

Hi gemami #22

I get a lot of help from volunteers. They help me to look out for relevant materials to put into my blog. They also give helpful suggestions. Many of these volunteers spend a lot of their time in this effort.

Some of them are involved in the investments; others just want to help out because they want to be helpful to the victims. I thank them for their unconditional help.

Several people are fearful for my future. They sent messages to ask me to “be careful”. If I speak too loudly, I may be the target of retribution.

I decided to do what is right, and let the consequences take care of itself. if I worry too much, I will be paralysed into inaction.

I like to ask those who wish to show their support to turn up at Hong Lim Park with your famly and friends on Saturday 15 November at 5 pm. It does not matter if you are involved in these credit linked notes.

Just turn up and show solidarity for the people who are affected. And as a silent sign of support for the efforts of the volunteers who are helping me in the background and in the frontline.

“Petitions, citizen activism and internet discussions do not wield any power in the real sense. If we are passionate in our beliefs and love for the nation, we should seriously consider entering politics. Only with political power can we make real changes.”

What happened ? How did your letter to Mr. Tan Kin Lian about his petitions to help morph into the necessity to enter politics in order for real changes to be made.

Does it mean that If our current elected representatives are not acting as much as those affected parties would expect them to do, then all of us must be resigned to this sad fact ?

25) smallvoice585
It is difficult to hold a politician to his words as he chose those words that are expedient to his purposes on that occasion. It is not expected that he will do as he promised ..

Well, this is what you sre saying. Would any of the politicians repeat after you? If we cannot hold the politician to his word, and mind you, not any other politicians, but the ones who profess to be above all others, then, really, I don’t know what else to say.

It is difficult to hold a politician to his words as he chose those words that are expedient to his purposes on that occasion. It is not expected that he will do as he promised

Well again, if one wants to look at it as a grouping for confrontation purposes, then yes, it is a form of political party. But if one is to look at it as a civilised channel where professionals come on to one common platform to speak up on behalf of the citizens who are not able to do so or who do not know the legal course of actions they can pursue in relation to their problems, then no, it is not a political party.

28) Tan Kin Lian
You have given me a lot more reasons to appreciate your efforts.
Thanks and take good care indeed.

correction to post #30
sorry, the second quote should go like this:

what you are suggesting in post #22 is in effect the setting up of a political party with the various shadow portfolios.

gemami(at Post#17);

You have done very well extracting two very relevant and important statements made by Lee Hsien Loong when he headed MAS.

One of the GREATEST MISFORTUNE that Singaporeans have to suffer and endure is the Great amount of Rules, Regulations and Laws that are put in place for enforcements and pre-emptions. BUT UNFORTUNATELY MOST OF THE TIME, ENFORCEMENTS ARE HALF HEARTED, NOT ACTED UPON (due to lack of manpower or will? Or definitions?) OR DELAYED AND DEFERED. Inaction of enforcements of homosexual, maintenance(Alimony/parental) and personal protection offences seem common, it is like ‘tiada apa’ or not important, but considered ‘offenses’.

“To preserve investor confidence, penalties for transgressions must be swift and appropriate. MAS now has the power to investigate and bring a court action for market misconduct under the new civil penalty regime. This will complement the existing criminal penalty regime administered by CAD.”, unquote.

If ‘mis-sellings’ as alleged had takened place and if it was a transgression of market practices, MAS could have intiated inquiry and investigation befitting the “swift and appropriate” description mentioned in the above quote, or being a layman, I have wrong understandings? Contrasted with the swift and decisive actions by the Hong Kong Authority over similar Financial Fiasco, Singaporeans cannot be more disappointed.

I cannot help agreeing with gemami that the problem lies with the Authority.

patriot

Hi all,

I wrote to the PM with the hope that he will act on what he said in 2002, i.e.

QUOTE
Market discipline also requires an effective enforcement regime. To preserve investor confidence, penalties for transgressions must be swift and appropriate. MAS now has the power to investigate and bring a court action for market misconduct under the new civil penalty regime. This will complement the existing criminal penalty regime administered by CAD.”
UNQUOTE

His office gave me an immediate acknowledgement of my letter.

Dr. Andrew Khoo gave me a reply within two days to acknowledge my letter to the PM and that MAS will not be able to discuss the matter with me. So, I presume that my letter to the PM will go unheeded as well.

Dr. Khoo’s reply is shown here:
http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/11/dear-mr-tan-i-refer-to-your-emails.html

I will continue to be thick skinned and optimistic. I will continue to write to the relevant government leaders or officials to express what needs to be done. I hope that, one day, they will change their approach.

i will not be deterred by rebuff or cynicism.

Tan Kin Lian,
you are truly inspiration for us to do what is right rather than to appease and succumb to the ruling party’s unjust demand and treatment.

Singapore investors deserves to be treated with respect and not as greedy Opportunist as portray by the woefully inept “pro-business” leaders.

But you must realise that your petition represents only 1 side of the issue. There is a whole spectrum of opinion on where the fault lies and what is the appropriate action to take. MM’s position represents one extreme and those who call for full compensation and full-blown CAD/MAS investigation the other. – smallvoice585 (#25)

Sadly, is there no minister that represents that the position of the retail investors? Does this mean the PAP is detached from the people?

Hi all

This is an excellent article written by the husband of a homemaker wife who was misled into making this investment. He felt strongly that the Government has been sideing the financial institutions without being fair to the citizens.

http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/11/call-to-government-to-be-fair-to.html

Annex 2 of my letter to the PM is an article contributed by R Williams. It explains the nature of the product. I wanted the PM to read it, but unfortunately, he passed it to MAS. I hope that MAS officials will read it.

http://tankinlian.blogspot.com/2008/11/is-this-fair.html

Hi,

I wish to ask readers of Online Citizen to come to Hong Lim Park on Saturday 15 November at 5 p.m. Please come, even if you have not invested in any of these credit linked notes.

Please attend to show your solidarity with our fellow citizens that have lost their hard earned savings. Please pass the word around to your friends and family to attend as well.

Do not give up the cause for justice.

The fight must go on and on and on. Like the Maoris at Orakau Pa in 1864 who were besieged by a superior British expeditionary force and with tremendous firepower. As they ran out of the fort in the dark they cried, ‘AKE AKE AKE AKE,” meaning we will fight on forever and ever and ever and ever. They still do – in more ways than one. I will not write the details down here as it is boring to Singaporeans. The message is implicit in this incident. As long as we have the guts and stamina I believe we will get our justice.

Sunny

Yes, singaporeans cannot go on being treated like criminals and let these traitors do what they like, the citizens must now stand together as one people one nation to do what is right to protect our country, it belongs to us, the nation reserve fund belongs to the people, in time to come, the ever flowing in of FT with ready citizens will just replace all of us in singapore, so do want to remain quiet and be replaced or do you want to speak out now, the choice is yours!

get over it and stop behaving like a mindless herd

it’s caveat emptor

i find it hard to believe anyone could buy into a product that pays multiple times more than fixed deposits and claim it’s safe?

asset rich cash poor…..better change that to highly educated lowly schooled

when things are all good and glorious, we blame the government for holding on too tightly to the purse strings and refusing to let us invest on our own (since we believe so strongly in our abilities)

when things go wrong, we blame the government for not helping us or sheltering us or protecting us

grow up, singaporeans

no wonder we’re being treated like no brainers by the miw

Good work Mr. Tan, please keep it up.

It is sad to see a government whom the people voted in, not looking after the people’s interests.

the govt is not interested in investor education – 3 million unsavvy citizens who’ve been forced to save a third of their pay. A perfect target for savvy financial institutions to sell crappy products full of fees and charges that only help the bankers reach early retirement. Walla – there’s the market to start your major financial hub!

Hold on, Mr K L Tan. Do not be too vocal for now. Strike only while the iron is hot.
And the hottest time for the iron is when they call for election of a new President. We all want you to stand against any PAP candidate. If you are too vocal prematurely you may be disqualified from standing for this vital election. AS someone in touch with the ground I am 100% confident that you would be elected, provided of course that they don’t pre-disqualify you.

To Liangshan of note 16:

Please attribute your long quote to the right person. It is not from OBAMA, but from Marianne Williamson.

Thank you.

Dear Donaldson Tan #36,

Sadly, you are right. The Govt’s main priority is not to protect the ignorant, the uneducated and the downtrodden. Their concern is more about maintaining Singapore’s reputation as an international financial hub. And to do that, the financial institutions have to be protected by caveat emptor in line with free market principles.

The PAP Govt always speak with one voice. So, if there are to be alternative voices, they must come from outside Parliament. But, as I’d stated, Tan Kin Lian’s petitions and letters and internet activism can be ignored and there is nothing we can do about it.

Like what Obama did, we must realise that the only feasible way of changing our society is to secure political power.

I’ve always been a realist, but this time I’m in a common spirit with you against people like “anonymous” #42 who called us a ‘mindless herd” and “no brainers”. Ouch!

I’m telling you, the ’smallvoice’ fella in this thread and elsewhere in TOC is one of the most informed of persons in Singapore. You guys have to listen to him. Of course as to the part about entering politics, or for the matter, even considering it as a career option, you have to enquire ’smallvoice’ himself (or herself, women are politically well-informed as well, and that should actually have gone without saying) if he or she is actually in politics or not. I’ll bet that ’smallvoice’ is an armchair critic or observer of the political scene here.

Anyway, ’smallvoice’ should really be in politics. He (if I may) is articulate, has a good sense of things going on, is guarded in being non-partisan, has the attitude (note the enthusiasm in his tone) and aptitude (as indicated by his salient knowledge on political, and even philosophical, theories) for the work.

Second this, anyone?

@ 49,
i second your proposal.
this smallvoice can start enlightening or educate the public at HLP.
smallvoice can become bigvoice and even the biggestvoice,
except ego might be over inflated lah !

Dear Smallvoice585,

Petitions, citizen activism and internet discussions do not wield any power in the real sense. If we are passionate in our beliefs and love for the nation, we should seriously consider entering politics. Only with political power can we make real changes.

The PAP Govt always speak with one voice. So, if there are to be alternative voices, they must come from outside Parliament. But, as I’d stated, Tan Kin Lian’s petitions and letters and internet activism can be ignored and there is nothing we can do about it.

Thank you for voicing out how PAP contributes to social unrest in Singapore. PAP today is dangerous to Singapore. Unless PAP revives its socialist roots, PAP can only be a threat to Singapore’s future.

#51,

What does socialism mean to you, and how extreme should socialist policies be? Do you reckon also that the ruling party today is in capitalist mode (I apologise for using the only other term relating to the subject I know)? Just 2 simple questions from an ordinary Singaporean.

#50

Hi, ’smallvoice’ doesn’t come across as having an over-inflated ego. Why do you say that? He sounds like a great guy. Lots of charisma. Should enter politics himself. He’ll be the darling of media political correspondents. Everyone will love ’smallvoice’.

He sounds like a great guy. Lots of charisma. Should enter politics himself. He’ll be the darling of media political correspondent – moderate (#53)

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2008/11/a-word-on-obama/

See how great a darling he (smallvoice585) is in the comment thread of the above-mentioned article. He will be darling of Straits Time’s political correspondent.

With respect to socialism, I aspire for a more equitable society. For starters, the formula for determining ministerial salaries and civil service bonuses should include the Gini Coefficient on equal weightage as the GDP. This is to fundamentally re-align the minister’s sense of purpose towards meeting societal needs.

Prior to the privatisation of Singapore Telecom, DBS, Singapore Post, PSA, etc, the PAP government used to be a lot caring while making pragmatic decisions in economic policy-making. GDP growth is dependent to good economic policies and this does not require the government to be only pro-business.

Back in the 70’s and 80’s, there were many PAP MPs who were sympathetic to the people. I can’t say this remains true today. Now, we have a government which is detached from its citizens, and citizens who are detached from their government.

With respect to socialism, I aspire for a more equitable society. For starters, the formula for determining ministerial salaries and civil service bonuses should include the Gini Coefficient on equal weightage as the GDP. This is to fundamentally re-align the minister’s sense of purpose towards meeting societal needs. – smallvoice585(#44)

I am glad to see someone with similar aspiration on TOC. Maybe smallvice585 ought to be running for politics in Singapore.

With respect to socialism, I aspire for a more equitable society. For starters, the formula for determining ministerial salaries and civil service bonuses should include the Gini Coefficient on equal weightage as the GDP. This is to fundamentally re-align the minister’s sense of purpose towards meeting societal needs. – smallvice585(#44)

I am glad to see someone with similar aspiration on TOC. Maybe smallvice585 ought to be running for politics in Singapore

typo: i misquoted smallvoice585. It ought to be smallvice585

42) Anonymous

it’s caveat emptor

You see, it depends on which side of the fence you’re on.

White Fence:
“It’s Caveat Emptor! You knew the risks. If you do not, you are responsible to go find them and understand them”.

Black Fence:
“What is caveat Emptor? It is, buyer’s risk: the commercial principle that the buyer is responsible for making sure that goods bought are of a reasonable quality, unless the seller is offering a guarantee of their quality“.

yah, you;ll make an excellent politician and please don’t wear white.

what are you waiting for, ni hai zai deng shi me ne, smallvoice?

Hi Mr Tan Kin Lian,
We appreciate your good work and perseverence.
Singapore is indebted to you.

Best wishes

/// 25) smallvoice585 on November 12th, 2008 6.01 pm
It is difficult to hold a politician to his words as he chose those words that are expedient to his purposes on that occasion. It is not expected that he will do as he promised as the situation may have changed and many other considerations may take precedence. Sadly, that is how politics work in the real world. ///

smallvoice585 – I think you should preserve this paragraph, cast it in concrete, or enlarge this paragraph into A3 size and frame it. Come election time, please dust this paragraph off and publish it here again or in the Straits Times. Your smallvoice will instantly be very loud and clear.

I find it amazing that MAS can subcontract its duties to 3rd parties. Deliotte and Touche is now looking into the minibond scheme I supposed paid by MAS to ensure they are devoid of any errors in their actions. Haha. (ouch!)

About time we terminate our top level ministers and subcontract their duties to other consultancy firms. Why pay them top dollars so that they can subcontract their fiduciary duties to 3rd parrties?

Tan Kin Lian, you remind me of His late Excellency Mr Ong Teng Cheong.

At a time of crisis in Singapore our President Nathan is glaringly quiet.

Was he born in the year of the mouse?

60) T

I have a very high regard for smallvoice and like most commentators over here I do feel he brings about a sense of balance to some of the discussion threads.

However, the comment he made that impacted another highly esteemed commentater T needs to be addressed appropriately.

In order to do this, I shall put a face to the quote. This face shall be the PM himself, Lee Hsien Loong.

Let’s imagine him saying this:

It is difficult to hold ME to MY words as I chose those words that are expedient to MY purposes on that occasion. It is not expected that I will do as I promised as the situation may have changed and many other considerations may take precedence. Sadly, that is how politics work in the real world

Tell me what you think now.

I have a very high regard for smallvoice and like most commentators over here I do feel he brings about a sense of balance to some of the discussion threads. – gemami (#62)

Not everyone agrees that smallvoice585 brings a sense of balance.

when things go wrong, we blame the government for not helping us or sheltering us or protecting us – annonymous (#42)

When the government and/or PAP monopolise the channels of welfare, human rights and addressing legitimate grievances, this is what you get. We, the people, are in a rock and hard place. The government has to let go first.

moving along, I recall what MM Lee just said – if you want 5% – you go in with your eys open. High return, high risk.

What do you think of the compulsory CPF $20,000 in Ordinary account? earning 4%.

High risk? ABC learning centre, Merrill Lynch, Citibank? Suchou.

In this case, we have no chhoice, but the risk is very real now.

/// 64) sub contract on November 13th, 2008 1.39 pm
High risk? ABC learning centre, Merrill Lynch, Citibank? Suchou. ///

sub contract – by saying this, you are actually agreeing with what MM said – high risk high return and going in with eyes wide open (personally, I prefer eyes wide shut by Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman).

You see, Temasek and GIC went into these multi-billion investments knowing well the risks, and when they tank, they keep very quiet and did not blame the sellers or investment bankers who hawk those lemons. They did not scream “mis-selling” or that they are financially illiterate, or worse still, plain illiterate.

I only have sub-prime six air-dew-cay-shern hor…

Someoone pointed out to me that the OCBC preferencce shares pay a dividend of 5.1%. The preference shares have lower risk compared to the ordinary shares of OCBC. And OCBC is still “solid as a rock”.

It is not correct to label the investors who want 5% return as “taking risk”. If they wish to take risk to lose their principal, they should get 20% return.

Hi sub contract (#61)

It is not the duty of President Nathan to speak at Speaker’s Corner and to voice the grievances of the investors. So, don’t blame him for keeping quiet.

Actually, I am the person who is born in the year of the mouse. But, that does not stop me from making noise in Hong Lim Park.

Hi Kin Lian,

OCBC pref shares’ dividend of 5.1% is not guaranteed.

/// The payment of dividends on the preference shares is subject to declaration by our Board of Directors. As the preference shares rank ahead of ordinary shares, OCBC Bank would have to declare dividends on the preference shares if it declares dividends on the ordinary shares. Since the end of World War II, OCBC Bank has never stopped paying dividends on its ordinary shares. ///

In other words, in bad times, there may be no dividends. And I believe we are about to enter, if not already there, into really BAD times.

The fact that OCBC has paid dividends since WWII doesn’t give me any comfort. Lehman Brothers was going strong for 158 years….

the big big issue is Nathan remaining dead silent on Temasek and GIC investments.
he has yet to say whether this govt has kept him in the loop and
surely he ought to have the same info as HC and MM.

it is high time for someone to swap places with Nathan.
notice i left the title of president out for him, simply because
he did not earn it through the people’s votes.

I mean, if you retire, retire and shut up. Don’t be involved, because you choose to retire. Go Batam better! – physician (#69)

If you are uncomfortable with Mr Tan KL raising important social issues and championing the cause for victims, you should be questioning how these issues even emerge in the first place? Which organisation and political party create the environment that resulted in the fiasco in the first place? If you don’t like the answer, I beg you to leave.

Mr Tan Kin Lian,

I think you are going to have more and more ‘escorts’ because of your high profile and the impending election wind sweeping in our direction.

I urge you to keep your dignity and continue what you do best.

“Ignore the ignorant” is the best antidote.

Cheers :)

For me, the whole minibond saga does not really interest me much as I am not a investor and I am not affliated with any FIs.

However, I am more drawn to the fact that one man TKL to be specific has done a wonderful job of gathering these distraught investors and giving them a voice.

What is so special about this man? He has two ears, two eyes, one mouth (maybe a big one), one nose and two hands – very ordinary and just like you and me. Sure he was an ex CEO with NTUC Income before with many years of high level work experience. But is he any different from you and me?

He has a big heart to speak out for the downtrodden and lost investors.

He has the unceasing zeal to do something for those who looked forlorn and disappointed.

He has a spirit of a lion to talk back at the authorities by way of petitioning and open protest at HLP.

He has a never-say-die attitude to pursue the matter at all cost even though he was warned time and again “to be careful” by supporters.

He has a determined unwavering atttitude to see that things are properly look into and that they are not swept under the carpet.

Singapore is proud to have such a son on our land and we need many Tan Kin Lian out there who is willing to stand out and be counted despite the cost.

Singapore needs sons and daughters to speak out with a loud voice so that many out there can look up.

Singapore will be a better place as there is someone out there who is willing to risk it for the benefit of our country. My only hope is that there will be more Tan Kin Lian out there who will come up and take the lead as we all look like lost sheep in our country battled around by those whom we have foolishly voted.

Hong Kong lawmakers vote for Lehman Brothers probe

Dikki Sinn , The Associated Press , Hong Kong | Thu, 11/13/2008 10:58 AM | Business
An investigation will be launched in Hong Kong into the sale of financial products linked to collapsed U.S. investment bank Lehman Brothers after lawmakers voted overwhelmingly for a probe.

The legislature passed a motion 47-4 empowering a subcommittee to summon top financial officials and bankers and have them turn over internal documents during the investigation. Four other lawmakers abstained from Wednesday’s vote.

“The Legislative Council has the responsibility to investigate the cause of the saga, whether there’s any dereliction of duty and whether there should be any punishment,” said Kam Nai-wai, a Democratic Party legislator who helped investors with Lehman-linked products over the past two months.

Hundreds of investors who lost money protested outside the legislative building Wednesday while lawmakers debated inside for more than seven hours. They have complained bank sales staff did not fully explain that the financial products they purchased were linked to the bankrupt U.S. company, leading them to believe they were a low-risk investment.

Banker David Li said any investigation would slow the efforts of banks in reaching settlements with their clients and damage Hong Kong’s reputation as an international financial center.

“Subjecting banks to what amounts to an unlimited power to demand documents and the appearance of bank managers before the subcommittee will only draw resources away from the great efforts banks are making,” said Li, who represents the banking sector in the legislature.

The Hong Kong Association of Banks said in a statement issued late Wednesday that it hoped lawmakers would be “discreet” in handling the confidential business information of banks and the personal data of customers while conducting the inquiry.

Billions of dollars in bad debt forced Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc., once the fourth-largest investment bank in the U.S., to file for bankruptcy in September, a victim of the world’s worst financial crisis in decades.
——————————
Our team A leaders and highest paid ministers should be ashamed of themselves!

During crisis, we can see the difference that bring out a man – TKL not receiving top pay salary, our most highly paid ministers and stat board officers, our National bank CEOs etc

My sincere prayers for TKL that nothing will happen to you but do be extra careful of what you say.

I will at the Hong Lim park on 15 Nov to show support to you although I not an investor.

Keep up the good work, Mr Tan.

most likely the PM will throw your letter into the dustbin and he will say what to do. I don’t think the govt will want to involve in this issue. Mr Tan can bring this matter to parliament if he is voted in the next GE. Definitely all uncle and auntie will support Mr Tan whether he is independent candidate or under a good opposition party.

smallvice 585,

If that being the case, that we have a government detached from its citizens and vice versa, what are you going to do about it? Aside that, I find your ‘government’/ ‘citizens’ adjunct here interesting. People usually use the ‘government’/ ‘people’ one. Why do you use ‘citizen’, and how does it reflect on who you are? Are you, or have you had any experience, in the civil service?

“Aside that, I find your ‘government’/ ‘citizens’ adjunct here interesting. People usually use the ‘government’/ ‘people’ one.”
“Are you, or have you had any experience, in the civil service?”

People ? Citizen ? What difference does it make to the article.

A lot of people in the private sector have never been in the civil service. Does NS count. What is your point Mr. moderate.

“Our team A leaders and highest paid ministers should be ashamed of themselves!”

What ? Ashamed of themselves ? They are always so proud of themselves by saying they are different from the rest !

All the talk, will it produce result- especially for the Opposition in the next G.E? I don’t think so. People will still clamour to vote for the PAP.

78) Chelsea

YA though my spirit is with them reality does set in to tell me that they may not win more than the 2 SMCs. Singaporean voters have the weird habit of attending all the opposition party raliies and then woke up the next day to vote for the lightning sign.

We are too cushioned by our country’s political climate to vote otherwise. I remembered the first time when I voted for the opposition, I could not sleep the day before and trembled all the way to the polls.

Will I be traced by my vote? Will I now be hunted and spied upon? Is my life in danger?

I am sure that I am not alone with my perceived fear which is very psychological but real.

Nevertheless, I am still alive now and could even work for a govt-linked company for a year.

All the fear I am afraid is very real. The oppisition parties need to challenge this perception that when people vote for the opposition they will face certain adverse repercussions.

mr tan kin lian

if ocbc goes belly up, which though improbable (like lehman was) is possible

would you still call the pref shares low risk? at 5.1%pa yield?

bear in mind, these bonds have no maturity date…which means you carry ocbc’s risk for the rest of your life…and your next generation’s too, unless ocbc choose to repay that loan

the pref shares are as high risk as the ocbc shares themselves…all these so called investors simply are too unschooled to realise

78) chealsea & 79) Gilbert ,

In battles such as the GE, every vote counts, Isn’t it sad that the Alternatives are losing votes to the PAP because of fear? The PAP do not win the votes, it is the Alternatives who are losing the votes to them.

I guess a simple calculation will tell us how important this element of fear is to the PAP.

First of all, there is a variety of fear.
a. fear that Big Brother might be watching you.
b. fear that the long arm of Big Brother might wake you up in the middle of the night to take to an unknown, dark and horrible place.
c. fear that you will be rocking the boat too much which in turn jeapodise your own welfare.
d. fear that your children will not be accorded the same privileges as those who had voted for the PAP.
e. fear that your HDB flat might lose its value.
f. fear that your estate might not be able to upkeep itself without you having to cough up extra maintenance fees.
fear, fear ,fear fear ….. here, there and everywhere.

With this variety, and many more, it does not need a mathematician to tell you that in every category listed, all it takes is for 0.5% to 1% of the population to fall into each category.

This is where the PAP has been able to win all these past elections.

All things, even without being equal, points to an equal or possibly stronger Alternative support, let’s say, 40% to 40%. However, the Alternatives have been losing elections after elections because of these 10% to 20% of the population who voted out of fear, conciously or subconciously.

This is why, people like us must go out and educate these people that they have to look beyond their fear so that we can hope for a better tomorrow, a better Singapore, free from the clutches of the PAP.

If you think you do not need this freedom for yourself, at least, think for your children and how they will be suffering under this kind of governance. It can NEVER get any better, only worse. Your children will pay the price for your inaction and fear.

Dear Mr Tan

With all due respect, you being the ex-CEO of NTUC Income and all, but from all that I’ve been reading about your approach towards this issue, and your assessment of what is risk, what is returns, which party is responsible for what, I don’t think you understand the concept of investments / investment instruments.

It’s commendable that you’re trying to be a voice for the people but you’re also in a way misleading as well since your concept of what constitutes riskless, low risk, high risk is not correct in itself.

It’s rather like fighting a battle without understanding what actually caused it.

I’m not on the side of the banks. But neither am I on the side of the consumers especially after watching how they’ve behaved

True there might be the handful who were ignorant and naive enough to go for what they thought was a free lunch, but the majority simply …..

Someone mentioned that “What is caveat Emptor? It is, buyer’s risk: the commercial principle that the buyer is responsible for making sure that goods bought are of a reasonable quality, unless the seller is offering a guarantee of their quality”

Correct.

Then everybody should sue Lehman Brothers!!! They were the ones who offered a guarantee on their quality. They were the ones who went round telling everybody who market their products that they have 158 years of history behind them. They were the ones who made representations of unfounded (as we found out painfully later) financial stability to back that guarantee.

Why take it up with the middle men who are just as clueless as you and I about the financial situation of the company? Heck, even the staff of Lehman weren’t aware of the financial instability what more tiny DBS in half-way across the globe Singapore

Barking up the wrong tree.

Get everybody’s act together. File a class action suit against Lehman and you might have a better chance of getting their money back.

No way is the vacumm cleaner salesman going to guarantee against the malfunction of the vacumm cleaner. The manufacturer will.

Go for the manufacturer.

“Then everybody should sue Lehman Brothers!!! They were the ones who offered a guarantee on their quality.”

Did you read the ShittyTimes that paint the pictures that Lehman Brothers should be entirely responsible for these craps ? Read more web post and understand the main issue. The main issue is mis-selling and mis-representation of DBS not some merely stupid bank fallout. The Lehman FI fallout does not absolved from all blame of local banks here from mis-selling and representation.
Anyway, you’re not the first to regurgitate the ShittyTime’s nonsense here. Why not you save your money subscribing to ShittyTime and read more meaningful posts in the web.

Look like not only there are clowns in the government, there are more like-minded clowns that worship ShittyTime lurking around in the web.

“Get everybody’s act together. File a class action suit against Lehman and you might have a better chance of getting their money back.”

ClassACtion against thy court ? Isn’t MM Lee make his statement clear ? Since when the court ever defy and reverse MM Lee’s “Word of Wisdom” ? Can anyone ensure the partiality of the court when the final verdict is issued by the emperor ?

High notes was structured and sold by DBS bank.

Not Lehman brothers. 82) got it all wrong.

Oh come on guys, I think he #82) Anonymous meant well.

Has anyone asked for the complete definition of ‘caveat emptor’?

If, by going with the definition mentioned: ……unless the seller is offering a guarantee of their quality” there might be a case to pursue the main culprit who sold the product.

Go after the main man is what he means.

#82 here

I was part of a misrepresented sale some years ago. Also with an American firm. Who then went bankrupt. Filed for Chapter 11.

I took part in the class action suit.

We won. I got some (not all) of my money back.

No hassle. Took a couple of years, but no hassle. Filed a couple of papers, some evidence and that’s it.

No need for all these angst.

The courts there took care that justice is meted out against the perpetrators.

To #83 Daniel, if you understand to file your suit in the right court, you shouldn’t be worried about MM Lee. He doesn’t have jurisdiction everywhere.

Hi #82

It is not proper for you to pass judgement under an anonymous posting. Your views may differ from my views, but you are entitled to your views. It does not give you the right to judge my views.

#76

A world of difference. For instance, if something is a ‘comment’, you call it a comment, not an article. Name the word correctly, and things will turn out fine. Call a ‘comment’ an ‘article’, and no one will treat you seriously, unless of course they want you to continue making mistakes, and encourage you to do so; be undiscerning. Notice that ’smallvice 585′ refuses to answer my questions. He’s too smart to.

“To #83 Daniel, if you understand to file your suit in the right court, you shouldn’t be worried about MM Lee. He doesn’t have jurisdiction everywhere.”

I don’t think you fully understand culture and workflow of the governing system here. Are you saying this in the context of Singapore court or somewhere else ? Right Court ? I thought that there is only one court in Singapore. “He doesn’t have jurisdiction everywhere.” Oh boy, I think you really underestimate the old folk. The old folk is always the last weapon to use to settle issue and has the final say. Has always been in the past and in the present, and maybe in the future if he still active.

Anonymouse #82
There are several parties involved in this saga. On one side you have the investors and on the other side you have the RMs, the FIs, and the manufacturers.The RMs, the FIs and the manufacturer are severally or jointly liable .This is the perogative of the investors to sue whoever they deem fit..
As for the vacuum salesman analogy, it is incorrect to say that the salesman is NOt LIable. The salesman could have misrepresented or mis -sold the vacuum cleaner, eg that it could function as body shrinker or tummy reducer.
That is what the RMs was accused of, for mis-selling and misrepresenting the products and risk was the major factor in the fiasco

Hi, if there was one single and common component about these structured products that was misrepresented, that you can put your finger on, what would it be? Is it only the risk involved with minibonds and such, and exactly what kind? It is claimed that full disclosure wasn’t made about the risks involved with the products, so what kind of risks weren’t disclosed? Hope my questions are understood.

Hi Gemami:

Yes you are right – the cost of fear is the reason why the ruling party enjoys such crushing victory for every GE despite the fact that we all know many people out there are fed up with the establishment.

So how do we eradicate this perceived fear which is very real?

I hope TOC can use this platform to assure all Singaporeans that voting is safe, secret and truthful.

When I asked my mum who is 77 years old now who she will vote for in the next GE, her reply was prompt “PAP la? Who else?”

When I countered her with the list of grouses of the ruling party, her reply later was “Also PAP la. Who else can i vote? for?.” For the record, my mum is only educated up to secondary school and belongs to those who are politically apathetic. The majority of our elderly ill-educated folks are such.

It clearly shows that the majority of our elderly folks numbering close to at least 20% if out total population out there will go for the ruling party anytime and are strong supporters who could not be swayed anyhow.

To #83 Daniel, if you understand to file your suit in the right court, you shouldn’t be worried about MM Lee. He doesn’t have jurisdiction everywhere. – anonymous (#86)

I believe the sales contract states clearly that forum must be the Singapore Court. I know this sounds strange because misrepresentation can potentially void a contract but until the contract has been voided, we are stuck with using the Singapore Courts.

I personally like the idea of using the Singapore Court because it would stake public opinion on the impartiality of the Singapore Court against the reputation of MAS as a financial regulator. If the court decides in favour of the retail investor, MAS looses out as a financial regulator because it would be deemed to be a useless body despite all the mounting evidence. If the court decides in favour of the banks, the court looses its moral authority which would be a blow to Singapore’s reputation as a clean corrupt-free state.

Either way, the government is still the looser. Hence, I am not surprised by MM LKY and PM LHL would attempt to discourage the investors to take the banks to court.

When I countered her with the list of grouses of the ruling party, her reply later was “Also PAP la. Who else can i vote? for?.” – Gilbert Goh (#92)

Does your mom live in a walkover zone? If so, she really has nobody to vote. However, if she is truly apathetic, she should not vote at all even if the Opposition actually contest in her zone.

Aside that, I find your ‘government’/ ‘citizens’ adjunct here interesting. People usually use the ‘government’/ ‘people’ one. Why do you use ‘citizen’, and how does it reflect on who you are? Are you, or have you had any experience, in the civil service? – moderate (#75)

I am not in the civil service. However, I am very influenced by the 1789 French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen that distinguishes a citizen from a human. Also, at the same time, citizens only include visitors, so all the interest of PR, foreign talents, etc are secondary to me. Citizens’ interest comes first.

If that being the case, that we have a government detached from its citizens and vice versa, what are you going to do about it? – moderate (#75)

I would love to run for GE but I don’t fulfil the residency requirement for GE candidate. GE candidates must have 10 year residency in Singapore prior to GE. I have spent a number of years abroad and the earliest GE I can run for in view of this requirement is 2021. Such is life, but I intend to help out as an election agent for the Opposition.

Correction to Post #94:

Aside that, I find your ‘government’/ ‘citizens’ adjunct here interesting. People usually use the ‘government’/ ‘people’ one. Why do you use ‘citizen’, and how does it reflect on who you are? Are you, or have you had any experience, in the civil service? – moderate (#75)

I am not in the civil service. However, I am very influenced by the 1789 French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen that distinguishes a citizen from a human. Also, at the same time, the electorate consists of the citizens, so all the interest of PR, foreign talents, etc are secondary to me. Citizens’ interest comes first.

“If the court decides in favour of the banks, the court looses its moral authority which would be a blow to Singapore’s reputation as a clean corrupt-free state.”

Either way, Singapore’s reputation will be damaged whatever the ruling is. And that is why gov want the bank to settle with the investor. No court case means no ruling. However it seems the bank neglect the “invulnerable” investors which is stupid because there is really no difference between vulnerable and invulnerable investors when it comes to buying the nasty product itself because all just trust the RM because the RMs represent the National Bank, and National Bank don’t deceive people. If the RM can’t even understand the product from the prospectus, let alone the investors ! The RM is just the product of the system of the bank, and cannot be fully blame for it, the main culprit is the system not the RM considering that it is not one sole RM’s act.

Anyway, Singapore must be screwed for the good of Singaporean otherwise the citizen will always be taken for granted by the gov and the GLC. Take it as heavenly punishment. Recall the story of Unsinkable Titanic where the captain once says that even God can’t sink the ship ?

“I personally like the idea of using the Singapore Court because it would stake public opinion on the impartiality of the Singapore Court against the reputation of MAS as a financial regulator.”

I doubt we will see it happen. Judging from the tactic use against Gopalan Nair, the court can use prolonged and delay tactic to increase the cost of burden of investors. All they need to do is to tell the investors it may take years to resolve and that lawsuit cost may even overrun their cost, therefore discouraging the investors. The worst thing is that there is no MP, no ministar, no clowns to help the investors to ensure court partiality. The case will be long forgotten and move on, and MORE GOOD YEARS will happen again.

A class Action looks good but it should fight in other country, not in here. I am thinking if the local investors can join forces with those in HK (if possible).

Judging from the tactic use against Gopalan Nair, the court can use prolonged and delay tactic to increase the cost of burden of investors. All they need to do is to tell the investors it may take years to resolve and that lawsuit cost may even overrun their cost, therefore discouraging the investors. – Daniel (#97)

Until the retail investors have attempted to take the banks to court, I disagree with your pessimistic assessment because it would suggest that our Singapore Court is already an impartial forum for matters of the ordinary citizens. Until proven otherwise, we should not question the integrity of the Singapore Court. There is no political cost in taking the banks to courts. With the ongoing protest against MAS, DBS and other FIs, MAS’ hands are already tied from taking side. If not now, when to take the FIs to court?

“our Singapore Court is already an impartial forum for matters of the ordinary citizens. ”
Who guarantee the impartiality ? How is it I yet to see a champion from the ruling party that stand ground with the investors. Give a minister as a champion with his reputation and job as stake. Without a champion, just like in real world without a project champion, a project will guarantee to lose. You must have a backing from influential figure to ensure impartiality and accountability, and having TKL is not enough to assist justice since TKL is downplayed by the gov.
YOu have SM, PM, MM jumping to conclusion and implying CAVEAT EMPTOR without checking on the perspective from the investors, so what can we expect from the court ? Is our court known for impartiality when SM, PM, MM are already involved in making the conclusion ?
I will have more confident if SM , MM , PM did not utter their insensitive statements.

do replace impartiality with partiality, must have posted too fast.

do replace impartiality with partiality, must have posted too fast. – daniel (#100)

Yes. It is a typo. I miss out typing “not“. Here’s the correction to post #98.

Judging from the tactic use against Gopalan Nair, the court can use prolonged and delay tactic to increase the cost of burden of investors. All they need to do is to tell the investors it may take years to resolve and that lawsuit cost may even overrun their cost, therefore discouraging the investors. – Daniel (#97)

Until the retail investors have attempted to take the banks to court, I disagree with your pessimistic assessment because it would suggest that our Singapore Court is already not an impartial forum for matters of the ordinary citizens. Until proven otherwise, we should not question the integrity of the Singapore Court. There is no political cost in taking the banks to courts. With the ongoing protest against MAS, DBS and other FIs, MAS’ hands are already tied from taking side. If not now, when to take the FIs to court?

smallvice585 on November 14th, 2008 9.38 am

It only goes to show that you very very very naive.

Think the issue here is whether court settlement or settlement with the bank would be in the best interests of the investors at large, no?

I take it that there’s political ramifications for the PAP if the issue is contested in courts, but how certain of which the case would succeed?

In Singapore, if we cannot look to our beloved Goh Chok Tong, MM Lee, PM Lee President Nathan to look after the common people and come down hard on those who mis-sold the products,

We just need to look to Donald Tsang and how the HK courts are coming.

The damage to the Singapore leaders will be long and heartfelt.

History will judge them.

Maybe the election machinery is for a new President ??

How come HK law makers voted for official inquiry and SG MP all silent? Two observations:

(a) multiple-party partliament alleviates the risk of monopoly of opinion.
(b) ppl-MP has a social contract. This social contract functions as it should be in a multiple-party system.

Anonymous i think you are the salesman who sell minibonds.

good luck to you.

you will be sue as well.

together with the banks.

and also the lehman brothers.

ask your bank to cover you up.

but i think they will not help you also.

all the best then.

i remember chen liping and chen tai ming from mediacorp was sue by their collegues few years ago.

win or lose is not important.

most important is to sue and sue to create public and international awareness.

to educate the public.

now i never ever dare to eat any fat slimming products because of chen liping case.

It only goes to show that you very very very naive. – bigvice858 (#102)

Don’t mistake political correctness for naivety.

“Don’t mistake political correctness for naivety.”- smallvice585

Thanks for teling us. If it is so, would anyone have delibrately (political correctness ?) mentioned something giving the impression of his support for the other opposite side. Still, I find that you are very very naive.

bigvice858 (#110): Do you work at the bank or are you from PAP?

For the benefit of others, I think fgf (106) was responding to Anonymous (82) and NOT Anonymous(105).

I still feel that investors who put their fat money for fat returns in any investments, for the matter, need to carry losts on their shoulders…pretty sure if there was gains they would spurge on themselves only.
All investments are directly linked to market sentiments…if they did not know this, then they should have put it a bank – FD ior savings. These cronies knew what they were getting and got hemselves deeply entrenched for higher returns and now come running foul when rug is pull under them…
DEALING WITN CONCERNED FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS OR BANK IS PROPER, IDEAL AND APPROPRIATE!!!

smallvice 585:

No she is staying in a contested ward. I am saying that the elderly will sure vote for PAP as they have given them HDB flats to live in and much stability when Singapore is still a fishing port.

There is hardly a chance for opposition with this group of die-hard elderly PAP voters. Die die they will vote for the men in white. No one else…

DEALING WITN CONCERNED FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS OR BANK IS PROPER, IDEAL AND APPROPRIATE!!! – VS RAAJ

The dealing should not exclude law suit and collective action. If the bank or financial institution demonstrated organisational failure that led to mis-selling, there should still be blanket compensation policy.

) V S RAAJ
“I still feel that investors who put their fat money for fat returns in any investments,”

“All investments are directly linked to market sentiments…if they did not know this, then they should have put it a bank – FD ior savings.”

5% per annum fat return ? in exchange of your principal sum of 100% ?

Hey this is not fiddling with stock and shares.

FD ior savings – if this is safe, why was the guarantee up to only sgd20,000/- at first until they made the change later on.

Some institutions are previleged to handle your money and earn money out of it. In return from this previleged which is not extended to tom, dick, harry and V S RAAJ, rules should also be in such that innocent people putting money in good faith shall be protected.

Banks used to be places where you only put in money for safekeeping and earn decent interests – and this belief still recides in a lot of people. However, the role of banking institutions has expanded over the years and sadly the belief of some still has not caught up.

There are 7 PAP MPs in Parliament who work or used to work in the financial services sector. One of them is MP Liang Eng Hwa, who so happens to be managing director at DBS currently. Which MP in parliament represents the victimised retail investors?

Here is what I translated from a Chinese editorial shown in the TOC TV titled [i]“An investigation will be launched in Hong Kong into the sale of financial products.” [/i]

The Eastern newspaper editorial:- “The Legislative Council has passed the resolution to activate the special power regulation to investigate Lehman Brothers Minibonds. What make people most puzzled is that the HK Government is not standing by the side of the victims to pursue their interest, but instead siding with the bankers. This can lead to rumours that the Government is protecting the bankers and businessmen. Frankly, if this affair is not investigated and allowed to drag on, it will only make people harbouring doubtful impression that the HK financial market is lacking transparency. Such an impression will do the utmost harm to the international reputation of HK.”

What an editorial pertinent to SG too!

’smallvice 585′,

Psst. The state of being naive is better as ‘naivete’, not ‘naivety’.

Anyway, was the Declaration written prior, post or mid the French Revolution?

I reckon all these calls for asking the investors to sue the banks are valid, but granted realistically, what are the chances of them getting their money back through the courts as opposed to other means?

Before I leave this thread permanently I would like to say that the most poignant thing about the structured product ‘fiasco’ was pointed out by a number of persons, including if not most notably Mr Tan Kin Lian, who mentioned that the risks were ill-matched with the risk profiles of investors. As to whether there was misrepresentation only each RM or equivalent and the client would know; I suppose action by banks which had distributed these products is in the direction of getting RMs to resolve matters with investors who made losses.

” Until proven otherwise, we should not question the integrity of the Singapore Court. There is no political cost in taking the banks to courts. ”
If proven otherwise, what can the citizen do other than to swallow the bitterness and regret ? A good court should able to stand scrutiny, unfortunately the Dr Chee saga shows that this court cannot stand scrutiny. This is a sad fact.

Anyway, was the Declaration written prior, post or mid the French Revolution? – moderate (#119)

It was written during the French Revolution and for the French Revolution against the Monarch.

If proven otherwise, what can the citizen do other than to swallow the bitterness and regret ? A good court should able to stand scrutiny, unfortunately the Dr Chee saga shows that this court cannot stand scrutiny. This is a sad fact. – daniel (#122)

In the people’s eye, the court may be seen as an instrument of political oppression in Singapore, but it still viewed as a impartial forum for matters relating to commerce. If the Singapore court fails to be an impartial forum for commerce, then Singapore’s future as global hub for finance, trading and oil refining would be threatened.

No she is staying in a contested ward. I am saying that the elderly will sure vote for PAP as they have given them HDB flats to live in and much stability when Singapore is still a fishing port – Gilbert Goh (#114)

Perhaps it is time to remind these old folks to vote for Singapore’s future and not vote for the fruits of past success they had enjoyed.

Now Pinnacle investors also got into trouble – they may get back zero return.

I am sure they will sue the banks for misrepresentation again. This thing will go on forever and the aunties and uncles fortunately may be compensated due to their supposed ignorance and innocence.

I have seen more aunties and uncles at the Stock Exchange looking at the screens and buying stocks than men in ties. I sincerely doubt that they are so gullible. I have relatives who are uneducated ah sohs making a tidy sum from the stock market boom when I am still struggling in a 8 to 5 shit hole. I may have to learn more from them how to invest than from those silly stock analysts.

Educated investors may want to bring these FIs to court over mis selling. Do HLP wants to take up their issue again? I hope there will be another TKL to rise up to act on behalf of these investors again.

#125
These notes investors placed their money for 5 years with a 4-5% pittance pa return & a potential 100% loss
Nobody will do this type of investment if honestly explained.

Many stock & share players (fortunately not all) want a return of 10 to 15% return in a few months times.They can sell their paid shares if they need the money urgently. They short, they contra, they take SGX, NYSE, etc as casinoes. Young or old, they are just GAMBLERS

NOBODY WILL ACT ON BEHALF OF GAMBLERS

’smallvice 585′,

It wasn’t that same work written by Rousseau, was it? Have lost touch with world history, as with local history. Lol. Anyway, the Revolution was one of the bloodiest events in Europe. You said that you’re, in your own words, ‘very much influenced’ by the Declaration. Are you sure that you’re in a way advocating violence; or are you sure that you’re not advocating violent uprisings in your claim to be influenced by that work?

To our most esteemed minister who deride us with this statement “…..eyes open”?
My humble answer is: “yes i do. However, “smoke” gets into my eyes …at the point of transaction. ”
How I wish I had never step into the Bank on that ill-fated day.
Now every sour grape is quoting his statement +/-.
I do wish everyone of us be more compassionate; to victims who had suffer loses.
I observed that even “Jackpots” in the Cruise Casino have this warning sign: “…betting is a game of chance.”
And I remembered the RM telling me confidentally my purchases were “very safe”.
I leave this message to prick the conscience of those concerned.

moderate (#127),

Roussea didn’t write the French Declaration. I am very much influenced by the ideas written inside the French Declaration, but not the French Revolution itself. Whether Singapore needs a revolution is an issue still open to debate.

Why are you concerned with violent uprising anyway? If it is the right way required by the circumstances of the times, why should we condone it? However, I will not join into any pre-mature conclusion that we must avoid an uprising.

Anyway, this is off-topic from the Article itself.

’smallvice’,

Quote: ‘However, I will not join into any pre-mature conclusion that we must avoid an uprising.’

Just as I guessed. Ok, back to the main topic. So what do you think is the most poignant thing mentioned about the structured product ‘fiasco’ thus far? I’ve given my take in post #121, which is along the lines of the risks involved with the structured products being ill-matched with the risk profiles of investors.

My own personal opinion is that those investors were seduced by the name of the products. For instance, ‘bonds’, real bonds, are generally considered conservative investments, but it’s turned out that the Minibonds and other structured products had more risks involved than some investors really knew. I mean, retirees, unless they are foolish, don’t usually even invest in equities, and if they did, they’re more likely in put their money in blue-chip stocks. Individual investors with a low-risk profile usually go for fixed deposits, bonds, mutual funds with low-risk, low return ratings or funds with low management fees, like money-market funds. Incidentally, the last, since I mentioned the fact about individual investors being ’seduced’ by the name of financial products, also turns a lot of conservative investors off, if only because the word ‘money’ brings to mind currency and speculation. That is not true about money-market funds at all. They are probably one of the safest types of funds you can put your money in, besides index funds, because something like a currency unit or an index does not often go bust and close shop. Besides that, money-market funds and index funds usually involve low managment fees, and sometimes no management fees at all.

YA it is all about greed personified.

Greed in wanting to grow our so-low interest rate on our deposit. If it is safe and can provide 5% annual return for 5 years why not? Our principal is also guaranteed? Why not?

If GIC can produce close to 8-9% return annually for the past ten over years, I wonder why they can’t do something for our retirement CPF fund. We have to suffer the low 2.5% interest rate on the ordinary account all these decades when they could borrow from our CPF money and grow theirs. This doesn’t make sense.

In Australia, mutual pension funds with good track record, will receive billions to invest for pensioners who have all along dump their money on such funds. They then receive a regular payout base on the amount they put in and how the fund has performed. An annual return of between 7- 8 % is not uncommon. Of course, now they are suffering the effect of the slow down. Nevertheless, all these years, they have being receiving good returns.

Unless the govt can find a good solution to help retirees growm their moeny for retirement, people will continue to place money in stocks, unit trusts and properties subjecting themselves to high risk and forfeiture.

It wasn’t that same work written by Rousseau, was it? Have lost touch with world history, as with local history. Lol. Anyway, the Revolution was one of the bloodiest events in Europe. – Moderate (#127)

This French Declaration is among the founding documents that led to democracy and also exalts its merits. By associating it to the French Revolution which seek to overthrow the oppressive monarch, you had completely overlooked the intrinsic merits of the French Declaration itself.

While the roles of banks have evolved, the people’s expectation of banks have yet to evolve with time too. Deregulation of the financial service sector may be good for the economy, but the regulator has failed miserably in ensuring citizens are sufficiently sophisticated. There ought to be public programs to provide general discussion on fundamentals, merits and demerits of investment products and strategies in future.

It is really surprising that depsite appeals to MAS and our beloved PM Lee to conduct an investigation into “potential mis-selling” by the banks have gone on deaf ears. I think this is a very basic thing to do, we are not asking MAS or PM Lee to accuse the banks without due evidence but instead just to conduct an investigation to see if there were any wrong doing or misreprentations. A couple of incidents could be isolated cases but 10,000?!!!

Look at PAP speed and ferocity over a bloody misplaced election form? CTV footage were extracted and made public, played over national TV within a couple of days, scores of ministers ragged poor Gomez over a a FORM!! Sometimes, you wonder whose interests the PAP is working for. Remember this clearly when you vote in the next GE, especially those 66.6% of our fellow countrymen. U sure u are voting in a government who is taking care of you?

133) Steven:

I think the FIs have indicated that they will finish their investigation before the end of the year.

I don’t blame them as we are talking about 10,000 individual cases with different stories and background. I believe they may compensate some but not the whole lot. The rest can then sue using class action.

I think the most frustrating thing out of this mayhew is:

1. Lack of accountability and haste in answering to the investors from banks and FIs.

2. Lack of support shown from the authorities especially MPs, ministers, CASE, etc. It is obvious that they want to wash their hands off the issue.

3. Lack of options available for the investors. If not for TKL, investors will do what the govt advocates all along. File your complaints with the FIs and if you are still unhappy go to the FIDR and complaint. The next stage after this is of course class action.

4. Lack of consumer activism within our society. This case clearly highlights how lacking we are in consumer rights. The rights of the consumer needs to be boosted from now on but if you ask me how. I don’t know. CASE and FIDR are not really doing their part in advocating consumer rights for reasons best known to them. DBS can also retrench workers without first informing their own bank union. This is in fact violation of the company labour law. But no one will take action as our workers do not know how to use people power yet.

5. Lack of unity among investors. For a total strength of 10,000 investors, 400-500 that showed up for HLP protest is really not a significant figure. It is not even 10%.

I hope that investors will get back something from the protest. Nevertheless, one significant oitcome of this protest that money can’t buy is that we have see what SIngapore can do when they are frustrated and led by a good leader. This is only good for democracy per se. History will only show how significant the minibond protest will turn out to be in time to come.

I think our PM just sit back, relaxed and thinking of ways to fix the opposition only and how to buy more votes. I don’t know whether will he be bothered by this mis-selling of the financial products. Anyway, he still get his million dollar pay and doing some useless stunts. We should vote them out of their irresponsible governance in the next election. It’s time Singaporean should wake up their idea and vote really for the MP that can help us; not those who just sit and do nothing. Wake up! Wake up! Don’t wait for the next next election.

’smallvice’,

Quote: ‘This French Declaration is among the founding documents that led to democracy and also exalts its merits. By associating it to the French Revolution which seek to overthrow the oppressive monarch, you had completely overlooked the intrinsic merits of the French Declaration itself.’

I find the comparison here, usually used by critics to distinguish between the ‘textual’ and the ‘contextual’ in a piece of fiction, odd. When the subject is political upheaval in non-fiction, it usually is a “a-call-to-arms” kind of work and, strictly speaking, only works of fiction may have the kind of intrinsic value you’ve described.

As to the positive statement you made about public education, I can only make the normative one about the onus being often on individual investors themselves to know what they are buying into. Anyway, do you think public education on investing should come at a fee or not?

I agree. It is time to remind not only these old folks but all Singaporeans to vote for Singapore’s future. We must insure our future in case the PAP fails to deliver after the next few GEs.