Again he failed to address the true parts about the investments:

1. How much is lost and how will it be recovered?

2. How about other investments that were made and possible losses (bound to have in this crisis)?

3. Why is the investment gain over the past few years only 3%? This is incredibly low return for any investment made over the past few years of bull-run economy

4. Why were the actual investment details not revealed on the financial statement on the website.?We only see a big chunk of investment sum there but no break down

5. How is the reporting channel like for TCs. Do they really answer only to the residents alone and not to the govt? If that is the case, members of residents should be the one forming the board not those hand-picked by the TCs or govt.

All along, transparency is the bugbear of our govt and for this TC fiasco, it remains clearly so.

It puzzles me why they have yet to see that the crux of the matter is the lack of TRANSPARENCY. True, $200,000 per flat worth of sinking fund isn’t exactly a lot, but how can we take his word that the lift overhaul does cost $100,000? Open up the account books Mr Teo.

$100,000 for lift upgrading? Is this project given to a govt linked company? And the citizens have to co-pay – how much?

And why must the town council money be used to set up propoganda posters, huge panels of PAP MPs smiling at us during festive seasons.

Should TC monies be paid for this?

These are elites here we are talking about….it’s not that they do not understand that transparency is the issue here. They have screwed up and they know it.

The political cost of opening up the books for them will definitely be too much to bear. Side-stepping is a much better option for them.

definitely in denial…hope he and the rest of his gang will have sleepless nights!

have you seen pinky loong on TV lately.

Sleepless nights? How much has his wife amd Father lost for Singapore?

“The Town Councils invest our funds prudently as we understand our responsibility to our residents. We have not done poorly or mismanaged the funds.”

When asked if town councils might lose more money from their other investments, Dr Teo said that he did not have the details of their investments and declined comment about his town council, Holland-Bukit Panjang.

Contradictory. Crap.

i’m curious: there are so many condominiums in singapore. could anybody provide a comparison between these and hdb flats wrt their sinking funds?

Can you comment on asking Singaporeans should be “thankful” even though you lost a huge amount of public money?

Repost here with edit:

Town councils’ sinking funds not mismanaged, says Teo Ho Pin
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/392409/1/.html

Sinking funds are accumulated surpluses meant for long-term use. Investments are made using the sinking funds, not with short-term operating funds from service and conservancy charges.

If you review the TC annual reports, the reports will have a line stating an amount of money (min required by law) transferred from S&C fees to the sinking funds. Thus, the sinking funds contain funds from S&C fees.

Part of government grants is also transferred to the sinking funds. So, certain amount of government money (public) is also used to invest.

What do you mean by short-term or long-term? It is still public money, he is still trying to confuse people with numbers and terms again.

For example, see page 13.
http://www.tptc.org.sg/pdf/Annual%20Report08.pdf

Dr Teo,

We know what the sinking funds are for, kindly stop rewinding your tape and give people the answer we are seeking. There is no more need to explain what sinking finds are for. And we already know, part of the funds were lost in investments.

1) It is obvious that excess sinking funds were collected to the point it was invested in toxic products. Lack of prudency with public funds.

2) With so much funds collected (2 billion), it’s about time to REDUCE S & C charges. This money BELONGS TO THE PEOPLE. Period.

I WILL REMEBER YOUR NAME DR. TEO TILL THE NEXT ELECTION. :)

pigscanfly:

Actually condos are more clearcut. Each resident pays maintenance fee depending on the size of yr apartment. The bigger it is the more you have to pay whcih is fair. You also are allocated a car park lot and you pay more if you exceeded your allocation.

Some part of the money is also used for sinking fund especially if the condo is already more than 5 years old. I guess the older the condo is the more sinking fund will be collected.

All sinking fund is allowed only to be saved in safe instruments such as FDs or govt bonds. There is no investment here.

Any collective maintenance like swimming pool. painting or lift upgrading will be used from the sinking fund. Of course, sometimes, some form of large scale upgrading will require residents to pump in their share but this is quite rare I think.

The HDB TCs obviously have the advantage of size as more than 900,000 housing units pay a tiered amount of fee monthly based on the size of the unit. It will gain from economies of scale in terms of maintenance services unlike condo which is quite static in nature. For example, one team of cleaners can clean at least ten blocks instead of the fixed number of condo blocks. Such cleaning contract is also farmed out to operatives during bidding further depressing the cost of maintenance.

I believe that with the large amount of sinking fund collected ($2 billion), there is every reason to believe that our TCs have over prized the S & C fees for residents.

Dr Teo, pls note that by taking the public fund to punt and winning does make the money yours to lose without being question. There are other questions that need to be answered.

1. Why is TC so secretive about their investment that the public cannot be informed of the investment?
2. Why is there a need to lock up such a huge surplus when the money will be more useful to the people here and now?
3. Don’t the TC know that locking the excessive money now would devalue the same dollar 28 years down the road?

The Government stipulates that 20 to 25 per cent of money collected from monthly service and conservancy charges must go to a sinking fund.

So if TCs are allocating more than 25% of S&C to the sinking funds, they must explain why they need to exceed the 25% ltd.

And tell us the amt in sinking funds if they had stuck to 25% ltd ie how much of the 2 billion surplus is due to the excess over 25%.

“Town Councils are required to maintain sinking funds to finance the longer-term and expensive works such as replacement of lifts and water supply systems as well as repainting, re-roofing and electrical re-wiring works. ”

So, teo, what is the EXACT cost of the lift? What is the Subsidy, if any?
How much per lift is taken from the sinking fund?
Lets break it down! (hip hop hurray)

With so much in ‘reserves’, why is more not done to improve the living environment of our HDB dwellers?

EXAMPLES of what spending is NEEDFUL for HDB dwellers :

1. Look at all the cars baking under the hot sun! Why not build more shades for the so many car owners ? That is what sinking fund can be used for right?

2. Why not all HDBs have rain shelters for all residents?

3. Why not all HDBs have safety device to block high rise litter?

4. Why some HDB parking lots in bad shape? cracked flooring and uneven concrete or muddy ? Surely these are not very expensive to do?

In this economic crisis, structural development is needed to boost the economy and create jobs. At least having more repairs and enhancements can create more need for business. The jobless can create companies to bid for these contracts and lower the overall cost.

I urge the authorities to carefully consider the above suggestions. I also hope the people demand more enhancements to their HDB , where necessary, given the huge amounts in sinking funds. The time to spend some of it is NOW!

Why invest on High Risk High Return products?
Some guy told mini bon bon investors ‘why invest in high risk high return? see lah, what happen? ”

WHAT OTHER MONIES HAD OR HAVE BEEN OR ARE BEING INVESTED IN SUCH HIGH RISK PRODUCTS?????

HOW CAN THE PEOPLE KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON WITHOUT INFORMATION?????

TEO, YOUR RESPONDING SHOWS YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THIS IS AN ISSUE OF PUBLIC INTEREST.

I ASSUME THE ABOVE QUESTION IS ALSO OF PUBLIC INTEREST.

YOUR HONOR, YOUR FINAL ANSWER PLEASE.

why not care for our ELDERLY HDB dwellers by having more elderly-friendly facilities and amenities? Our elderly contributed to society and singapore is what it is today thanks to their sweating and hardwork and COOPERATION.
Its time to spend some on their needs.

Only when all the needful things are done should money be spent on HIGH RISK PRODUCTS.

I blame the people for not asking for information earlier enough and demanding for improvements and ammenities. If I had known earlier this thingie……sigh…..

teo boh?

Can we get confirmation that
none of the sinking fund , not a cent, has gone into accounts of other entities other than the accounts of FI for the TC?

How is cash flown man?

not asking u to tell how much is spent. Where has the money flown to before?

do not you think this is such an interesting question?

rgds
Teo Lun Park

1) Gilbert Goh on November 27th, 2008 8.54 am

You are one of the few I’d like to speak with. How may I contact you?

Wong Kan Seng – Mas Selamat
Lee Bee Wah – Ping Pong
Wee Siew Kim – Elite, uncaring face
Vivian Balakrishnan – How much do you want
Yu-Foo Yee Shoon – You want to cover up to 30 per cent, 40 per cent or 50 per cent?
Teo Ho Pin – Thank us
Lim Swee Say – Monthly CPF statement
Goh Chok Tong – That’s life
Lee Kuan Yew – Golden years
Lee Hsien Loong – Fix; silence, F1
Ho Ching – $$$ (I know she’s not a politician)

All of them have left an indelible since the previous election. Left anyone out?

Vote wisely, please

So how many of you now knows that you people been screwed all these years by these elites? care to share with us here at TOC?

Saw this header “Funds are financially secure” in big, bold print in Today (http://www.todayonline.com/pdf_open.asp?id=2711NSL008).

Honest question: why use the word financially? Does it mean that the funds can be financially secure, yet legally bankrupt and socially unaccounted for?

19) Ho Cheow Seng,

You can email me at goh_gilbert@yahoo.com.

I am currently abroad.

funds are financially secure means anything wrong, more funds would be pumped in to secure them, so it is financially in a secure position, no worry.

It is now no more a money issue. It is about the integrity of men who had been touted by their party to be of unquestionable character. Teo HP is an elected MP, a paid servant of the land, the mayor of a large GRC and the co-ordinating Chairman of the group of town councils. For the last 2 months or so, he has been leading the people round in circle on the true affairs of his and other TCs when a straight talk is simply the right thing to do. The Minister of National Development has spoken – TCs have the responsibility to ensure transparency and accountability. Yet you persist in playing your game as we see in your latest statement.

IT IS TIME FOR TEO HP TO COME CLEAN or LEAVE..
To him, I say: Please don’t treat the constituents like fools who can’t see through your beating around the bush. Instead of answering to the expressed concerns and want for the RIGHT information, your answers raised even more questions. You are behaving like one who has more things to hide. This is unbecoming of a person in your public position. We now know that after wasting sinking funds in the past on losing investments like Creative Technology (which is a volatile high risk-high return counter) with apparent immunity, you have graduated to making financial bets in the now-dead Lehman Brothers instruments. You have obviously been emboldened to behave more adventurously like a maverick fund investor instead of concentrating on your primary role in estate management. It is ludicrous for you to say that you just merely wanted to make 2-3% more in interest to cover inflation by risking 100% in funds. Even as a gambler, your play is stupid.
You have indeed LOST YOUR WAY. You have showed the world that you are unfit for such high public office and you have shamed and betrayed the high ideals of your PAP masters. If you continue to play hide and seek, the people will have to seek and demand that you move out of public service.

Latest from CNA:

The Kangaroo trio of three was sentenced to jail.

In Dr Teo exclusive interview with Zaobao, he said that “I wish to assure residents that, the town council never lost a single cent contributed by the residents.” (“我要向居民保证，市镇会并没输掉居民所缴交的一分一毫。”)

(http://www.zaobao.com/sp/sp081127_515.shtml)

I am confused?!

Well done TCs! You have proven, till now, you can be Trusted as Custodians of HDB Leaseholders’ money.

Bravo!

All this hindsight criticism is , well, valid.
But still the people of each HDB should take some responsibility for their action or the lack of it – question the TCs usage of our money. Remember, TC do not own our money. They are the Custodian of it, according to da noose.

i am a bit ashamed of singaporeans in this aspect specifically. They always like to go on auto-pilot and then point fingers. TC do not exist alone. Its existence is because of the HDB Leaseholders – the people who lease from HDB a flat to stay in. Yes, many criticise its expensive, especially the 1st time newly weds.

HG and PT pasir TC, the MPs not sure how well their CV or education fared with the other TC MPs but 1 thing for sure, capability is more important. Like to a company, it is the bottomline that matters. Ability or no ability and not so much other thingies.

Choose. Choose wisely.

Dr Teo forgot to include a last line in his press statement:

“This was an honest mistake, but the fact remains that my calibre is first-division class. I look forward to you residents to vote me into Parliament again in 2011.”

If you had read Tan Hui Yee article on the MSM ST ,
can any of you tell me :

1. Is gov not responsible for TC leadership performance?

2. Is gov not accountable for TC leadership performance?

3. If , according to his report, these TC are not gov bodies run with uniformity of 1 professional outfit, then why this concern was not raised earlier?

4. Why did not the affected TC followed the wise and prudent leadership examples of HG or Potong PS ?

5. Why have these affected TC not insisted its fund managers to GUARANTEE capital protection?

In short, this fiasco has changed my perception of the talent we have voted in.
For the kinds of remarks received about our leaders, we are led to expect more.

HDB LEASEholders Expect more. Lets hope the TCs follow the leadership examples of HG and PT PS.

This episode of losing a mind blowing S$16 million confirms, to me, that there is a REAL need for full disclosure.

For example, if Financial Experts like TKL or Leong T H had seen reports on such TOXIC! products, maybe they could have ADVISED our dear teo to do the Prudent thingie.

alas! sigh….. alamak! ooops! what to do??? I no no leh??? ah but then ??? twinkle twinkle litter star ? oh my bong bong ?

Selamat Hari Ini ,
the wong that is not the song of the wrong

Dear Dr.Ho

I am sure you are reading this now. I guess what we all need is the track record of spending and investment over the years.

In short an audit trail or detailed report to show how Singaporeans money was put to good use , and if there were any short comings that resulted in investments that have gone bad. we would like to know about it too as this is of national interest.

I guess you might think this is a can of worms, but I guess as Singaporeans who have built and contributed to the growth of this country, are entitiled to these answers as this is our money and our Country.

Please give Singaporeans piece of mind and open up your books for answers. This is the best way to prevent Singaporeans from speculating.

Declining to comment tends to trigger off the alarm bells in peoples minds.

Cheers
:)

Teo HP said in his latest staement:

“According to some town councils’financial reports, the annual surpluses ranged from $345,000 (Holland-Bukit Panjang) to $4.373 million (Ang Mo Kio-Yio Chu Kang). Generally, the surpluses exceeded$2 million”.

Can constituents of his TC please write to him to ask:

1) why their TC’s surplus is so low and below the average for all TCs.

2) Also why their TC have a yield of only 3% while the opposition TCs and many of other PAP TCs who have no toxic investments have yields double that or more and when govt bonds are paying close to 3%.

Do these questions lead to the probability of other losses possibly in the stock market which Teo HP is trying hard not to disclose the actual investment portfolio of his TC.

I heard it over the 958 Radio 1pm news:

Dr Teo explained that the money lost was not the money of the residents. It was the money that TC earn from the investment.

TC made $24m in the past investment, if all $16m were lost, TC still have $8m profit.

Therefore, Dr Teo is right to say that ‘not a single cents of the residents’ money was lost in the TC investment. The money lost were the profit of the past investment.

ah now we are getting to the very interesting part already…

now they say what they have lost so far is what they have earned from past investments. Very soon they will say only SOME of the sinking funds belong to the people, the balance belong to the TCs ….

And then the TC do not need to be accountable to the people in their constituents for TCs’ own funds investment.

wat a crap mr teo is talking about…not the resident $$$!!! If we dun pay for S&C charges where you hv the $$ to investment. We pay for you to maintain our estate not to invest!!

Not wonder this type of minister we hv…cos he think that LHL or GCT pay him and not Singaporean pay him!!!

Vote him out the next election!!! I guess he will hide behind the heavy weight during the next election, cos with his calibre, he will not be able to make it as an MP himself!!!

“TC made $24m in the past investment, if all $16m were lost, TC still have $8m profit.

Therefore, Dr Teo is right to say that ‘not a single cents of the residents’ money was lost in the TC investment. The money lost were the profit of the past investment.”

Huh? Wait… wasn’t the purpose of investing to ‘grow’ our money so they don’t have to take so much from us the next time? Now suddenly it is not our money anymore? Then… what’s the point of investing the money?

Why so complicated?

Even if no money is lost,
the investment in toxic products is a wrong decision.

Wrong is what? Right? No! long is long.

Everything aside, it is still right for Singapore to have TC which can confidently face its HDB leaseholders that they have invested the leaseholder’s monthly contributions in so and so by so and so FI.

Its reported that the Gov does not want to meddle with how TC invest.

And I like to know what is the harm of disclosing?

Is it like other big guys where disclosing can allow its competitors to Anticipate its Moves?

If you don’t want to disclose, 1st you have to convince the electorate.

sincerely
selamat wong – i am accountable wan

I agree with Zefly…

So that S$24m “profit” suddenly is not our money but their money?

Who gave them the “seed” money in the first place?

Anyway in this case, if he chooses to call the profit their money, then there is a serious lack of accountability…

Risk we bear, profit they enjoy…

TCs please say sorry and move on.
Do not invest in shares any more. Just invest in FD, Govt bonds.
We will not say thank you to you when you make money, just make sure our money is sound and safe.
THP learn a lesson from GIC, Temasek huge paper loss, share market is not for TCs.

I think the public has to continue making noise in the media and here as there is a clearcut misrepresentation here.

There is a strong smell of something wrong in the investment or else Dr Teo will come clean.

My take is that he has something to hide – perhaps there are some more losses incurred in other instruments such as stocks and shares.

Something is wrong currently with the govt. Something serious like this happen and a junior officer/mayor (not minister or DPM) has to come up and explain to the whole nation. Shockingly, PM Lee is also silent on this matter as the issue is still tied to the governance somewhat. A case of washing hands off the matter?

This is a signal to the country that ministers will not defend one another as a single governance but the person in charge is left to face the music. This to me represents a slight disunity in the govt don’t you think?

They have done this to the minibond investors now poor Dr Teo has to face the music himself without any backing of any cabinet minister or the PM.

Our govt has a problem of really owing up to the responsibilities of the job. From the Mas Selamat fiasco to the minibond investment, there is no single ministry who dare to come up and said that he is at fault. I think citizens are not so ungracious as not to forgive ministers who owned up th their mistakes. It is when they start to hide here and there that the population will get mad and frustrated.

We may have a corrupt-free government but something is not right with the transparency part here.

“43) Gilbert Goh on November 27th, 2008 2.59 pm
We may have a corrupt-free government but something is not right with the transparency part here.”

COSTLY FACELESS SYSTEM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

aiyoyo $8m loss..

with this $8m, how much can this be given to the people living in this TC?

Some questions for our good Dr.Teo

1) All this while we were making money and suddenly we hit a LOSS?

2) How do we know the money was invested at all ?

3) Why is there a need to increase the monthy S&CC ?

4) Why did they not explore the options of using the sinking funds for the people in bad times ?

5) Why they SUDDEN need to disclose this matter to the People?

6)To begin how do we know this is the TOTAL amount that they have collected over the years?

It would be good if the repoters and MP’s take up these questions for the People, cause you might be clueless too.

Mr Teo,

I am surprised at your arrogance.

You are talking to your constituents… I thought you have pledged to serve NOT COMMAND them…

“We take a longer-term view of Town Council sinking funds, in line with the funds’ long-term objectives.

We recognise that the amount invested in Lehman Brothers’ related products is not a small sum in absolute terms ($16 million), even though it is only 0.8 per cent of the funds. ”

Wow, so for the PAP TC’s, PAP which was founded upon the platform of the Party of the Masses, the Pro-Labour Party, the Champion of the Proletariat and the Plebians, $16 million (S$ or US$?) is now small beer? On second thoughts perhaps, if S$600K is just ‘peanuts’. What a ’suah-ku’ I am! Should kick myself in the ass!

Town Councils were not set up in the first place to collect money from Citizens for the Management of the TC’s to invest. Investments carry risks and the higher the promised returns, the higher the risks. Hullo, if I ‘tak surat’, ‘boh tuck chek’ and also ‘hung-chi kia, am able to learn this from my better informed fellowmen, the Town Councillors have no excuse for what they have done.

So if investment incurs risks then it’s a form of gambling. It’s gambling because, like when you gamble, you either ‘tuah yiah, or tuah soo’, you accept the high risks even as you hope to win big. And shouldn’t the people, of the various contituencies involved, have been consulted in the first place? The fact that you have been elected by the ‘majority’ in a constituency or GRC cannot be interpreted as the People giving you a blank cheque to do what you will with the money entrusted to your care.

I sincerely hope the ‘push’ for a one-party system is not motivated by a desire for not having to be held to account by the electorate when things go awry. So while we may say let the by-gone be by-gone, I think a strong signal should be sent to the TC’s that the money they collect from the People belongs to the People and are entrusted to the Town-Councillors to do those things that serve the best interest of the People. Then people don’t have to queue up for coupons to pay for their utilities or for food items from NTUC.

Most Singaporeans work very, very, hard for their livelihood. They aren’t as fortunate as the people in other First World Countries where to have a standard of living equivalent to ours or even far better, they have ‘welfare’ even as they work and greater welfare when they retire. In these countries many people have time for recreation, socialization, and the opportunity to travel to see the world.

Their children are provided free education up to the tertiary level. Incidentally, if my memory serves me, that was what the PAP promised the people, when they first assumed the reins of power, that they would work toward the goal of providing our Citizens free education in stages from the Primary School level up to the University level. But what I know is that despite what the Government has accumulated over the decades, the school fees are now higher than when they first assumed power.

Frankly I never knew that our Government has so much money until the recent and still on-going financial catastrophe, when the Government started to invest in the UBS and several other financial institutions by the billions and also to be able to provide billions as outlay for other Government initiated schemes. So how is it that the Government has so much money in its coffers and the people still toil night and day just to get by; except of course for the top ONE percent?

Please, please be fair to your People. They trust you, their leaders, with all their skin and bones, their hearts and soul; those who do pray, also pray for the leaders to have protection, good health and wisdom to do the right things by the People they lead, on a regular basis. So please, please do look after them. And, we will continue to “Pray and Pray”. so don’t play and play, lah!

Dear Mr Teo,

You mentioned the following points:

1. “Town Councils are required to maintain sinking funds to finance the longer-term and expensive works such as replacement of lifts and water supply systems as well as repainting, re-roofing and electrical re-wiring works.”

2. “After almost two decades of accumulation, our sinking funds amount to under $2 billion or just over $200,000 per HDB block. This is not excessive as the overhaul cost of just one lift for a 12-storey block can cost about $100,000.”

I have just a few questions/comments:

1. How much on the average has been expended per block for longer-term and expensive works that you mentioned? Is it close to $200,000? Can you give us the figure so that we know if the sinking fund size is fair, excessive or underprovisioned.

2. Is the $200,000 per block before or after investment losses have been taken into account?

3. You mentioned the cost of overhauling a lift can reach $100,000 & that it takes on the average 28 yrs to overhaul. We know some lifts are not overhauled but upgraded, wherein residents co-share the costs. How many lift overhauls (not upgrades) has taken place in the almost 20 years that sinking fund has been accumulating? I am sure there are not too many such cases. What is the total cost of these overhauls? Is the $100,000 figure based on 2008 prices or 2 decades ago? How were lift overhauls funded before sinking fund came into being?

4. S&CC charges can translate to such a huge sinking fund despite an average return of 3% p.a, at least in the last 6 yrs. Does this therefore mean that TCs are collecting much more than is necessary, and not spending enough, even on big ticket items?

Frankly we should start a movement not to pay our S & C fees until we are happy with the answers provided. The solid surplus should be enough for the TCs to operate unfunded for at least a few years. So far, those who emailed their TCs for answers have no reply yet.

The worse is we all go to the court to face legal charges for unpaid fees.

“We may have a corrupt-free government but something is not right with the transparency part here.”

Does the gov even know the meaning of corruption in Singapore ? Who define corruption in Singapore gov ? At the bottom, they recognize corruption, at their level, it is just business as usual.

WSJ recently get fine for a unfair trial, and AG get $30,000. Now tell me is this corruption or just business as usual ?

He does not look well over the last 2 days in the APEC meetings.

We need to ask if something bad crops up – who will succeed?

WKS – shiver shivers.

Reminds of Sarah Palin. Let us be careful of our next vote!

53)PM Lee does not look well

YA I shared the same sentiments here.

He looked haggard and lost quite alot of weight to me lately. His hair is also almost white and he smiles less as if there are alot of thoughts on his mind.

He does not look as well as before even up to the NAtional Day period when he looked radiant.

Let’s hope he is well even though we are against his policies. We are not against the person but his governance.

….. their estate will be well looked after ……. not true, please Dr Teo come to my estate, you can smell the urine at staircase and lift. You collected so much S & C and provide sub standard service. You don’t walk the estate, only during election time then you go house visit. Then in that case I better vote Mr Ling How Doong to be my MP, he can bring up the minibond saga for us, he will care better in TC.

52/ PM Lee does not look well.
I hope nothing will happen to him because we are shortage of talent. Any thing happen, we have to import a FT to be our PM.

Hi 50) Gilbert Goh,

Someone has opted not to pay S & C fees earlier. Know what the PAP town council did? They don’t even bother to check on why the resident is unable or unwilling to pay. Just a lawyer’s letter by mail. Talk about procedural efficiency.

Why are all the town councils investing separately, instead of combining and invest as a whole?
Is it to create a competitive environment for returns on investment by various town councils? If not, what is the rational to invest separately then?
Wouldn’t it be better that if they consolidate the amount as a whole and bargain for a better terms from the investment company?

Anyway THP ought to be embarrassed to mention the 3% returns on investment when govt bond gives 2.9% interest. A 0.1% higher interest at risk of $16 million, is it worth it?

aiyoyo,

invest at 3% returns,

GST how many %?

He said

“Over the last 6 years, we have achieved an average rate of return on investments of over 3 per cent per annum. This is more than three times the average interest of about 0.9 per cent per annum earned on Fixed Deposits, and greater than the2.9 per cent from SGS 10-Year Bonds over the same period. ”

But according to their annual report ending Mar07, it was stated on page 23 under Point #10 Cash and Cash Equivalents,

Quote.

The short-term bank deposits have a maturity of 1 month to 3 months (2006: 11/2 months to 3 months) from the end of the final year with weighted average effective interest rate of 3.25% (2006: 2.25%) per annum.

Unquote.

Well, the average rate of return of 3% is nothing to shout about if the funds have to be invested higher risk instruments compared to short term bank deposits giving an average yield of 3.25% in 2007 or 2.25% in 2006.

I made some calculations and the figure smells fishy:

Taking a 3 room flat as an average paying household for S&C fees:
S&C charges for 3 room flat in Pasir Ris- Punggol GRC = $60 /mth

35% has to go to sinking fund = $21/mth

Assuming there are 100 households in a block, a monthly collection would get = $21 x 100 = $2100 per block

No. of months to collect $200,000 = 200000 / 2100 = 95.24 mths or approximately 8 years

Does it really take 2 decades to collect the $200,000 amount that our dear elite has claimed?

Apologies but I have omitted the S&C rebates given by the govt in the above calculations. However, even after factoring the rebates, the figures still smell fishy.

Assuming a 5 month rebate being given every year for 3 room households, each block will still collect $2100 x 7 mths = $14, 700

No. of years to collect $200,000 = 200000 / 14700 = 13.6 years

This is still no where near the 2 decades figure that our elites are claiming.

Please note that the S&C rebates from year 2008 budget for 3 room flats is only 2 months.

However I have assumed a 5 month rebate figure so as to factor in those households that were unable to pay their S&C fees due to difficulties.

(And also I’m trying my best to be kind to our dear elites too in the above calculations. HAHA. )

The BIG question here is WHERE HAS OUR $$$ GONE TO????

TC members should be elected.
TC members report to the constituencies.
TC members should conduct annual General Meetings like all societies.

“The BIG question here is WHERE HAS OUR $$$ GONE TO????”

believe me, you don’t want to ask that question because bad things will happen.

In TC reports & interviews by TEO, they mentioned that their investments was determined by fair value. Anyone knows what does that means?

Of course the honorable MP will say the TC fund is well managed despite the loss of millions of public fund placed in his trust! What else could he say? He was in charge of these public money!
It would be more credible if a third party, an independent person, has looked into the loss as well as the purchase of 500,000 Creative Tech share and come to a conclusion that the TC fund is indeed well managed and the TCs are allowed under the Town Ciuncil Act to make such investments.

Although Dr Teo reassured the residents not to worry on sc/cc increase, as “whether town council charges increase is not dependent on town council investment returns”, but I still don’t get the assurance.

Mathematically, if every $1 we paid for our sc/cc, 25 cents go to sinking fund and 75 cents go to pay for current maintenance charges. The 25 cents now used to invest in Lehman’s Brother investment and the losses cannot be recouped.

We still have to come out with the 25 cents to pay for our future cyclical maintenance, don’t we, Dr Toh ?

Hmm.. I noticed that all town council have already uploaded their 2008 report on their website, however

Holland-bukit panjang TC ’s report is missing

Something really fishy going on ??

How can one compare the sinking fund’s average return of 3% against the 0.9% earned on Fixed Deposits and claim that the returns is 3 times higher?

According to the fixed deposit rate offered by United Overseas Bank, the 0.9% is applicable for deposits from $500,000 to $999,999.

Given the magnitude of the sinking fund, which is in terms of Millions, I am sure the interest rate offered by the bank would be much higher than 0.9%.

Dr Teo, please compare the returns of the sinking fund against other investment of a similar size or magnitude and tell us whether the average 3% return is still considered “high”.

We recognise that the amount invested in Lehman Brothers’ related products is not a small sum in absolute terms ($16 million), even though it is only 0.8 per cent of the funds.

Thank you for first recognizing $16m is not a small sum.

Next, we should query into why residents should also foot the bill for lift upgrades, and also look to see if the current S&C charges are unnecessarily high.

Ref: Ang Mo Kio – Yio Chu Kang Town Council

Annual Report for Financial Year 2007 / 2008
http://www.amk-ycktc.org.sg/aboutus/pdf/Annual%20Report%2007%2008.pdf

Ref: Aljunied Town Council

Aljunied Town Council – Capital guaranteed funds have no exposure to credit-linked notes since end September 08
By Jeffrey Chua, Secretary, Aljunied Town Council
http://www.aljuniedgrc.sg/newweb/news.php

On 16 September 2008, we reviewed and were informed that our portfolio exposure to Lehman bonds was assessed at approximately 0.27% or $120,000 at most through the unit trust holdings. DBSAM had since divested out of the position and as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes. UOBAM has confirmed that our funds invested by them have no exposure to Lehman Brothers.

Question: Did ATC lose any monies when it “divested out of the position”.

The latest annual report is for FY 2006/2007 (at time of posting)
http://www.aljuniedgrc.sg/publication.php?type=Annual%20Report

Home page has the following newspaper article:
http://www.aljuniedgrc.sg/download/Funds_are_financially_secure.pdf

Ref: Bishan-Toa Payoh Town Council

The latest annual report is for FY 2006/2007.
http://www.btptc.org.sg/E%20News/AnnualReport.htm

We need more like Mr Tan.

Mr Tan has mentioned one of his wish is to see more come to the fore.

I hope Mr Leong will also stand for election.

But then he is too good in Finance. I wonder who in parl can be better than him in this aspect. AND still willing to ask the needful questions. That is very important!

Ref: East Coast Town Council

Lastest Annual Report FY 2007/2008 (PDF)
http://www.ectc.org.sg/pdf/Audited%20Financial%20Statements.pdf

The filename is named as Audited Financial Statements. The annual report is scanned page by page and then a PDF version is created from the scanned images.

Ref: Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council

Latest Annual Report is for FY 2006/2007.
http://www.hbptc.org.sg/annualreport2007.html

Ref: Hong Kah Town Council

Latest Annual Report for FY 2007/2008
http://www.hktc.org.sg/publications/annual/08/HKTC%20Annual%20Report%20FY%202007-2008.pdf

The Annual Reports section has only one report.
http://www.hktc.org.sg/news_ar.htm

Ref: Jalan Besar Town Council

The website has no annual reports section.
http://www.jbtc.org.sg/

But, a search on the net found that the print annual reports can obtained in Lee Kong Chian Reference Library (Adult Reference Singapore) The latest report is for FY 2006-2007.

http://snb.nl.sg/holding/itemholding.aspx?bid=6259254

Thanks Joe for the uploaded report. You are the man!

This is a serious flaw on the part of the govt and on top of so many other fiascos e.g. Mas Selamat’s escape, Lehman Bros minibond investors, GIC mis-timed insvestment, one-party system, one gets the feeling that something wrong may be happening at the top.

I also noticed that PM Lee looks very haggard at the recent APEC meeting. His smile is very artificial and forced. IS he affected by the current economic crisis or is his health going downhill?

The govt all along has a problem with transparency since the old days of LKY. GIC/Temesak accounts are not readily available due to security reason and the late President Ong Teng Cheong also had problem digging out some official assets.

It showed that something is not right with our financial system and accountability is in very bad shape for a democratic country. I am not saying our govt is corrupt but transparency is certainly important and very lacking. if you are not transparent, you give the idea that there is something sinister you are trying to hide.

One of the serious flaw of our govt is that we have a dominating one-party political system. There is no one to check them and so long as Singaporeans keep on giving them the mandate to rule we will end up very entrenched with a one-party system. The two elected opposition MPs can only do so much. They can’t be arguing and asking for the govt to reveal details in Parliament as they are very much in the minority. We also wont expect PAP MPs to bite the hand that feed them surely. NMPs like Ms Olsen can only do so much. They can’t perform miracles.

Singaporeans have only themselves to blame for the current political situation. As I have mentioned often, all this boil down to us voting for them and giving them the mandate to rule over us. We have to accept the hook, worm and sinker so call. There is no perfect govt and if we dislike them, we have to use our vote to our advantage. Even LKY has always advocated that if the population dislikes the current govt, we can use our vote to put them out. We have the choice on our hand so keep your chin up Singapore! The situation can be put right.

i agree with you, Gilbert. That’s why I advocate voting the opposition, any opposition infact, to break the PAP stranglehold. It might sound all too simplistic or misguided, but such is the need right now. There’s no room to pick and choose, if the problems with the ruling party are so deep-rooted and widespread, as most of us perceived up till this point. And quite frankly, MM Lee aside, there is no clear leader in the ruling party and that spells further trouble if they are allowed to continue.

However, to make things easier to swallow, the opposition should band together like what Anwar and gang did in Malaysia, agree on a common manifesto, and work the ground together for the next GE. It’s still not too late but the work must start now. It is actual one of the best moments in our recent history for the opposition to seize and arise. But I would leave the same words for the opposition as I did for the PAP: do the right thing for the people of Singapore.

新动网:” 累积基金投资受到保护 无不被滥用”.
Misleading headlines, what a joke!!!!!! or is it true????
It means nothing was not being mis-use, or all are being mis-use.

新动网:” 累积基金投资受到保护 无不被滥用”.
Misleading headlines, what a joke!!!!!! or is it true????
It means nothing was not being mis-use, or all are being mis-use.

Technically correct. Dr Teo explained that the money lost was from the $24m profit accumulated over the last 6 years.

Nice logic, Mr Teo. Tell you what, we pay you 75% of S&C charges so that you can focus on maintenance work and won’t be accused of misusing funds. We the residents will invest on our own. When you need to carry out expensive works, tell the RC. We will call for 3 quotes if your bulk tender prices are not competitive. Oh by the way, please return us the 25% taken over the last 2 decades with interest. Thank you

82)logicalman:

The problem with our voters are that they often want a candidate that has similar characteristics with the ruling party: scholar, well educated,upright, so much so that anyone that does not fit the bill will be discarded.

Perhaps we are always been associated with maverick opposition politicians – CSJ, Francis Seow, Tang on the alternate camp that we often put them on the secondary voter list during GE. When i doubt, vote for PAP.

People like Low and Chiam got elected because of their long gentlemanly reputation and die-hard loyal voters. They deserve our respect – both the voters and candidates. However, I doubt that they are solid enough to come together and unite as one political party yet. Their differences are apparent.

Singapore is in need of good leadership speaking for the alternate party. He has to be brave assertive and able to command the respect of our sophisticated population.

Let’s hope TKL can provide this difficult task of leading the alternate party. If not, we are doomed for another one or two elections at least.

aiyoyo

can we take back our $ & put inside CPF??

CPF still give us 4% leh, better than 3%, correct??

aiyoyo how come simple math also not know…

With all these good questions that the citizens of Singapore have,

I think it is a good idea to invite Dr.Teo to meet the people and clarify any questions and doubts that the citizens should have.

This will be good both ways as Dr.Teo will be working VERY closely with the common people.

MP’s and reporters reading this don’t you think this is a good idea ??

Right now we have one way communication – this is the old school approach.
It would be best to have an interactive feedback session.

“83) Omong Kosong on November 28th, 2008 8.12 am
Technically correct. Dr Teo explained that the money lost was from the $24m profit accumulated over the last 6 years.”

Ya loh. So does it mean they can continuously to do so for the remaining accumulated profit. Still technically correct hoh.

So shiok hoh to be in such a wonderful position to be losing money and yet can still be technically correct hoh. What a perfect technical (or should I say legal hoh) excuse hoh. Everything so right except we have to pay hoh.

Ref: Jurong Town Council

FY 2008 Financial Report
http://www.jrtc.org.sg/annual_report/31_March%202008.pdf

The Annual Reports section has only this one report and there are no past annual reports.
http://www.jrtc.org.sg/pr_annual.htm

They have a Tender Results section and observed that some tenders have some interesting bidding numerical differences.
http://www.jrtc.org.sg/services_tender.htm

aiyoyo

not sure upcoming S&C fees will increase??

time are really tough nowadays, yet still have to worry bread & butter,

then also worry our $ maybe loss in TC investments,

wa it seems we more work done than those PEOPLE, correct??

(but we still earn normal $ only)

aiyoyo

Ref:Marine Parade Town Council

There is no annual report on their website.
http://www.mptc.org.sg

Ref: Sembawang Town Council

Latest annual report is for Financial year 07/08
Page 1 – 34:
http://www.sembawangtc.org.sg/annual%20report/annualreporta.pdf
Page 35 -65:
http://www.sembawangtc.org.sg/annual%20report/annualreportb.pdf

There are annual reports for FY 06/07, FY 05/06, FY 04/05.

Ref: Pasir Ris – Punggol Town Council

Annual Report & Financial Statements for 1 April 2007 – 31 March 2008
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/uploads/Annual%20report%200708.pdf

There is another report for FY 06/07.
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/index.php?page=annual-reports

FAQ on Town Council Investment (dated 27 Nov 2008)
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/uploads/FAQ.pdf

11. Will this result in an increase in S&CC?
We would like to reassure our residents that there is no need to raise s&cc.

We can quote their words, if it is otherwise.
Do note the date of this FAQ release.

“We recognise that the amount invested in Lehman Brothers’ related products IS NOT A SMALL SUM in absolute terms ($16 million)……we understand our RESPONSIBILITY to our residents…. We wish to reassure our residents that we are financially secure.”

“financially secure” or “FINANCIALLY OBSCURE”?

aiya … why you people make so much nosie for f*** … be grateful that you have a roof over your head and we are only charging you peanuts and in return, you have a pigeon hole that you call home

dun forget we build up this nation from slump and the nation reserve has increased to $400 billion over the last few decades. if not of our visionary leaders and A-team minister, your grandmum & mum could be working as foreign maid right now

so shut up and pay your S & C fee timely

It’s interesting to know how Dr Teo arrived at the average interest rate of 0.9% p.a. on fixed deposits. Based on the recent available financial statements of 3 TCs, the weighted average effective interest rates(EIR) for fixed deposits ranged from 1.65 % to 3.25%. Isn’t it the average EIR as used in the annual reports a more appropriate benchmark to use?

As this is a public forum, can the editor explain why my comments are always subject to moderation?

aiyoyo

“After almost two decades of accumulation, our sinking funds amount to under $2 billion or just over $200,000 per HDB block. This is not excessive as the overhaul cost of just one lift for a 12-storey block can cost about $100,000.”

thought we do pay for the lift upgrade, correct?

think after co-pay, think the lift upgrade cost should be lowered, correct?

aiyoyo

Dr Teo explained that the money lost was from the $24m profit accumulated over the last 6 years and so it was not the money of the citizens.

What a crazy warped logic from an accounting point of view..

Using that logic, supposing Lehman brothers investment was making money, say $10 million. Does that mean that the extra money is not citizen’s money?

In all investments, everything start from seed capital. Some make money, some lose money. If it turns out that on a net basis, there is positive income, this income belongs to the owners of the seed capital. The portion of the net income which is not doing well, IS ALSO THE CITIZEN’S money, it is immaterial that it was netted off in favour by other successful investments. We should not isolate the profits of an earlier investment and then claim that this money is not the citizen’s anyway, so it’s ok to lose it. Such a warped argument will also lead to a conclusion that so long as there is a net postivie income from investments, losing any amount of money (even $100m) is ok. IT is no different from Dr Teo’s earlier comment.. please you people should thank the Town Council that the net flow is positive, don’t complain.
REX

aiyoyo

if we are the RM that sell the product to TC

wa think the commission a lot a lot, correct???

aiyoyo

truely 1st world country

everything is top-down approach

our opinion is not required; just follow what 1st class minister say

Stop rewinding, open up the book.
without knowing the ground, your senior claimed that investors went in with their eyes open, u have not tell us if you went to invest with your eyes open as well????

anyway, using the taxpayers monies to invest behind their back is already illegal, whether win or lose is not the point here, are we trying to say that CFOs of private companies can also secretly using the company’s fund to do investment without first consulting or informing the board of directors? so why are we arguing here when the case is already pproved ILLEGAL, and when it’s illegal, the person authorizing the transaction must be held accountable for and not let off scot free. There laws in singapore applies to everyone, well unless somebody. . . . . you guess is as good as mine!

Haha.. Dr Teo just don’t get it. He use our money to gamble and when the TCs got richer and gambled again and lost. “It’s not your money”, he said , “it’s the profit from your money,wat!”
How can any govt body use citizen’s money to deal in high risk investments without at least informing the public prior..I don’t get it..He keeps saying TCs are financially secure..we must be thankful.. Don’t worry be happy..I can’t take this! Can we get Bozo the clown to take his place?..No? Then how about those guys from Jackass the movie?..No?..oh dear.

If this happens to our CPF money..Then all is lost..

All our cpf monies will be lost, it is possible when things are done behind our back, this is illegal.

aiyoyo,

cpf $ can be ’seen’ only sometime age 62 or 65,

how huh? still got several years to reach age 62/65…

not sure by age 62/65, got chance to take+spend our hard earn $ in cpf???

aiyoyo work very hard, and still ? mark whether we can use our cpf $ by then….

aiyoyo think life in this country getting tougher and tougher

FACT is FACT.
Figure is FACT.
Thought I could do some simple maths but shockingly I couldn’t find excuse for the loss.

$16m is lost.
$16m is reasonably pressumed to be the capital which is wiped out without recovery.
Risky structured product CLN is presumed to have a history of 2 yrs.
The 5% return is 3% more than the return from FD or FD equivalent about 2%, hence
The gain over the 2 years = $16m x 3% x 2 = $1m

Add to the 2-yr gain another 4-yr gain presumably another LB Minibond type CLN, the figure = $1m + $2m = $3m

The loss over the 6 years:
$16m – $3m = $13m

Obviously there were other investments (seems that it was the entire sinking fund) that could yield a return of more than $13m, or else how could the $13m be recouped?

It is now that we are told that the loss of $16m is from the $24m – an aggregate of 6 years return, so a simple mathematics suggests that the net return for a total of 6 years is only $6m (after the $16m is wipe out) which gives an average of $1m return in a year,

$1m/$2b, what is the rate of return? Excellent? Mediocre? Your judgement!

Is the figure wrong or my maths wrong?

In 107), it is obviously that there is a calculation error. Somebody works for ZaoPao said the $16m loss is a ‘calculated risk’ so chim but luckily mine is a only a calculation error . Must apology for the honest mistake for the simple maths I did with my eyes open.
$24m – $16 M = $ 6m
Where goes the other $2m?
This $2m is the provision for the likely $3m loss in TC’s another CLN investment in Pinnacle CLN series 6 arranged by Morgan Stanley.
Sorry for non-disclose of this material information: a provision for a potential $3m loss.

Why is Dengue still a proven in HDB estates?
Please use some of the money in the sinking fund to hire professsionals solve this age old problem.
1 life too many.

Great! we have so many supervisor here to supervise the quality services provided by the Town Council.

Yes! it’s time that the Citizen stand up to supervise our govt.

Stand up Singaporean, voice up Singaporean,, write out TOC……

I think we are all barking up the wrong tree. Teo Ho Pin was merely working according to the investment rules for a TC as stipulated by the Finance Ministry. And he has kept within the rules by limiting his gamble on toxic investments to less than 35%. So he has nothing to answer for. The person who should be blamed is the one who stipulates these investment rules. So, it is not difficult to see that the Finance Minister was soley responsible for this fiasco. Who was the Finance Minister who approves these rules? Could it be Tharman or his predecessor? Perhaps we should also be thankful to the Finance Minister for allowing only 35% to be gambled away. It could have been worse, right?
If this is the kind of loss that happened in a private condo management the manager or the Board of Management would have been sacked long ago.

111) anonymous on November 30th, 2008 12.48 pm
If this is the kind of loss that happened in a private condo management the manager or the Board of Management would have been sacked long ago.

What? they could have landed themselves in jail already, this is illegal.

Unfortunately, each and every singaporean is also responsible for the lack of transparency.

we are part of the equation – we cannot shun the responsibility. we did not ask for transparency before. thus , you have current situations. there may be deeper implication than what meets the eye.

i am sad to report that many many singaporeans really, as in REALLY, do not care about this issue. I swear, they really boh chap even when they are :

either:
1. the min bond investors who lost money, they do nothing about it. only a handful signed the petition even after so long. Fact is fact.

or

2. the one who pay and pay the S & C C.

do you want to retire?

btw, i do not find that annual reports is good enough info for me.
that is way too high level.
we need more details like what products have they invested in now and before.
how the money flows.

$100,000 for lift replacement is every 28 yrs. even if it is every 10 years the amount of $$ kept in sinking funds are too excessive.

aiyoyo

keep sinking funds, compare to funds keep inside our own pocket

got difference??

cant understand the logic leh..

aiyoyo

We can only comment on the tc based on what information we have.
We cannot say exactly how good it really is performing until we have all the necessary info. * this is the most important part of my message *

to me, a B/S or P/L is just a very summarised info.
it would be good to know where money is invested in what products and funds transfered from where to where or to where from where.

during election time, they said if they elected, there will be fund for lift upgrading, etc…..then why now TC needs to pay, residents also need to pay??? so in the end, who are the actual parties paying???

“After almost two decades of accumulation, our sinking funds amount to under $2 billion or just over $200,000 per HDB block. This is not excessive as the overhaul cost of just one lift for a 12-storey block can cost about $100,000.”

Err… so? Do we need to overhaul all HDB blocks any time soon? Then there must be something wrong with the way HDB build flats…

“Over the last 6 years, we have achieved an average rate of return on investments of over 3 per cent per annum. This is more than three times the average interest of about 0.9 per cent per annum earned on Fixed Deposits, and greater than the2.9 per cent from SGS 10-Year Bonds over the same period. ”

Doesn’t sound very impressive leh. What’s the point of comparing to Fixed Deposits? Did you guys actually manage to beat inflation or not?
If not, don’t collect so much in the first place la! The only reason for collecting excessive amounts in the first place is so that they can do whatever they want, and we would be none-the-wiser!
If they collect what they need for the short term, then they will have to tell us when they need more money what the money is for! And that kind of transparency is exactly what they fear!

why the need to be so exccessive? so they can do whatever they like and when the time comes for lift upgrading or painting, they will still call for increase of fees. If not becos of the financial saga, you think they will disclose to all you people of these sinking funds? many of the PAP TCs don’t even have any annual auditing reports for so many years, why? becos the master allows them to make these excess monies out of the citizens pockets. C’mon singaporeans, you people has been taken as bloody suckers for so many years by these coffers doing things behind your backs, and you people still want to believe them?

Why must singaporean sigh ?As a singaporean we have to accept what goverment arrange for our country future since now economy going slow
that doesnt mean we have to sigh for everthing PAP done so much for the
pass few years…look ahead…now singapore is a peace country n clean
must we still question abt all stupid question…hehe..life need to go on if we love our country dont asked for this and that because goverment do for the best for their citizens and country…im proud to be a singaporean