I suspect MSK case is going Long Term as well.
In the long term, who knows, he might be caught, finally.

As we go into 2009. MSK case is one of those unclosed cases of the century.

sigh………. makes me a bit scared scared about security……of the futury.

Dear TOC,

I would like to see TOC address ethnic issues. What do the Malays want ? What are their primary concerns etc ? At the moment – it seems to me that TOC is voicing the concerns of the majority ethnic group. For Malays – Islam is an important issue. But TOC has very little coverage of interest to the Muslims. This must change. Singapore does not exist in a vacuum. Singapore lies smack in the middle of the Malay Archipelago which is decidedly very Muslim and in fact, increasingly so.

So my request is that TOC must devote more space to ethnic issues and also issues affecting Malaysia and Indonesia.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Dear Syed Alwi,

The majority group are Singaporeans. That’s why we focus on that – issues which affect all of us, whether we are Chinese, Malays, Indians, Eurasians, or even PRs.

Andrew Loh

Well written article by Benjamin! Kudos.

I agreed that 2008 was a watershed year for all bloggers and TOC in particular.

TOC has evolved into a credible socio-political site without delving contentiously into anti-government journalism as with many other opposition sites.

By getting people like Leong, Balaji, Anthony Yeo and TKL into writing for the site, it managed to publish many thought provoking articles from various sectors of the population. Besides political issues, many social issues such as the FWs, cost of living, wage gap division are all pertinent matters that affect the population. Though all this are reported in the MSM, TOC has managed to delve abit more in-depth into them e.g. town council investment fiasco.

I am surprised that the authorities allowed TOC to flourish and this perhaps is an important direction that bloggers will take notice. Nevertheless, my only fear is that they will step in if such site undermine it’s authority and of course political survival.

2009 will continue to see blogging taking central stage next to the mainstream journalism. Though they may never replace the MSM, it will take an important place in online journalism as many Singaporeans live by the internet at least for the age group between 20 to 40. They will be greatly influenced by what is being reported online as many young Singaporeans do not read our local papers regularly.

My only wish is for an online paper to evolve from such flourishing online reporting. Many developed countries have an online paper that subscribers pay a fee to read. It’s place remain an important alternative to the MSM. If SPH will to take up this role then I feel that the whole motive of having an alternative in online reporting will be defeated.

Hi Gilbert,

I too hope that we will see the evolution of an online newspaper – even though I agree with Balji that it is a quite a challenge to do so. Nonetheless, I still harbour a little hope that it will be possible.

I am waiting to see which of the recommendations by AIMs the govt will adopt. We should know that in about 3 weeks or so. That will give us a clearer picture on going forward.

lastly, I also hope to see more “group blogs” being formed. I think this is a way to help take discourses on social and political issues to the next level. It would be really great if ex-journalists could do this as well. We have quite a few who have the experience to do so – Cherian George, PN Balji, Tan Tarn How, Ken Kwek, etc.

Perhaps they should just come together and create a group blog – unless and until an alternative online newspaper is possible.

Lets look forward to 2009 and more involvement from all Singaporeans.

Happy New Year to one and all!

*I will be at the SDP’s countdown tomorrow evening…:)

Dear Andrew Loh,

I beg to differ. What are the views of Chinese Singaporeans towards Islam ? What are the views of the Malay Muslims regarding Islam in Singapore and so on ?

Yes – we are all Singaporeans. BUT WE DO NOT HAVE THE SAME ASPIRATIONS, VALUES, WORLD-VIEW AND CULTURAL PRACTICES.

Any attempt to impose a Singaporean Singapore on Malay Muslims will be met with fierce resistance. Your condescending attitude towards REAL ethnic problems does NOT bode well for the Democratic movement in Singapore.

If this nascent Democratic movement cannot present a platform that is acceptable to Muslims – then I think that it will NOT go far.

Its patently naive and irresponsible to ignore valid and real differences between the various races.

Most Malay Muslims will NOT support issues that are in violation of Islamic norms. Your nascent Democratic movement must find ways to be inclusive enough to accomodate Muslim interests.

Otherwise – are you not just another chauvinistic group that ignores valid Malay Muslim issues ?? How different then are you – from other chauvinistic groups ?

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

While these questions are pertinent to Dr Alwi, I feel TOC would be stepping into a very obvious OB marker set by the PAP: racial issues.

If they needed any excuse to shut TOC down, this would give them ample cause. Look at what flimsy reasoning they used to accuse Tan Liang Hong of the same thing.

I wonder come 2009 eve, which blog will suffer another ‘power failure’ and get shut down?

I would like to see TOC formalizing into a political party staffed with credible and viable alternatives Singaporeans can choose over the current “Dividion Ass” team.

[i]For Malays – Islam is an important issue. But TOC has very little coverage of interest to the Muslims. This must change. Singapore does not exist in a vacuum. Singapore lies smack in the middle of the Malay Archipelago which is decidedly very Muslim and in fact, increasingly so.

So my request is that TOC must devote more space to ethnic issues and also issues affecting Malaysia and Indonesia.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi[/i]

dear abang
its not that we do not liked to discuss on malay/islam issues
we simply cannot
because
as a truelife singaporean
we can never adapt to the purity thinkin of an islamic person
i know i have many many malays/islamic kakis amon my kopi drinkers
heck we even goes together on overseas holidays
including little china….
onced there was a class 1 gatherin
you would be surprised
just a gathering of ALL
the primary 1 till primary 6
from our ole primary school
we joked
we compared
many of my classmates are doin well
some millionaires
1 pured islamic scholar
who migrated to australia and practised LAW in australia
was OFFENDED
when 1 our of naught primary 1 classmate started on the wrong foot
he called all malays/islam are the same…
that same primary 1 malay/islamic classmate snapped @ him
even thoguh we havn’t met/gathered in DECADES…
not 1
not 2
more than 3 folds….
so back to this topic
how to discuss this issue?
even discussin about mas sala escapes
irked some of our local mosque followers…

Hiya

On trends and directions. I just have a few feedback points. If theonlinecitizen doesnt keep deleting post for no apparent reason. Then there is a real good chance it may be able to do something useful. As it is, I have noticed the intelligent post have all but dried up here. Is it just me or do others have the same sinking feeling as well. And all we seem to have instead is the same bunch of two dimensional people who just seem to want to play the angkat game. I for one hope the coming next year will see a change for the better. And more diverse views that even take a diametrically opposite position to theonlinecitizen.

It is easy to preach, but not so easy, it seems to walk the talk, it seems.

is there an engagement or discussion between bloggers and govt in cyberspace or in the old media? i have yet to see any. i think the govt side fear to step into cyberspace unless it is their own safe sites.

on the other hand, many bloggers have attempted to engage the govt in cyberspace as well as the old media. in the latter, they are subject to the same routine of editor’s choice and editor’s agenda.

will there ever be an engagement?

[i][ If theonlinecitizen doesnt keep deleting post for no apparent reason. Then there is a real good chance it may be able to do something useful. As it is, I have noticed the intelligent post have all but dried up here. Is it just me or do others have the same sinking feeling as well.[/]

harlor
i was the first person on this tiopic this mornin
it went illiat
simply because i mentioned
father/son/uncle/nephew/niece government interRELATIONSHIPS
which in reallives its TRUE what
unless somebody here want to challenge me
the home affair minister is NOT related to the prime minister?

Talking about OB markers, there are such OB markers for our PR friends. We all know that PR cannot vote in a GE. But do you know that PR are not allowed to get involved in local politics? The difficult part is when an issue which is initially social or economical one and somehow evolves into political issue. Remember a Capt Goh who was kicked out of SG for his involvement (rightly or wrongly) in the pilot dispute with SIA management? Recently, some Burma PR were deported for holding protests to raise awareness of the plights of their countrymen back home.

In short, if Malays/Muslims feel being left out, then PR could also feel the same.

If this nascent Democratic movement cannot present a platform that is acceptable to Muslims – then I think that it will NOT go far.

TOC is far from that position. It need to grow some more, the political climate need to open a some more before such platform is meaningful. Dr Syed Alwi, it is not yet the time to handle the issues you are talking about.

You can do something, there is much you can do. How about write some beginner piece and submit to TOC or other blogs or even SDP so we know what is in your mind.

So, what say you?

Hello there,

There are already several good blogs around.
Each blog has at least 1 good writer already.
If these combine effort and form a new online newspaper,
it should be easier than having 1 blog write all the alternative news.

For each article on the MSM, Alternative commentaries and news coverage can add reading pleasure to all news-holics. people have to read the news daily. like drinking coffee. if no drink for 1 day, they feel like death.

In addition, after having a formidable Alternative newspaper that is either cheaper or free , this new online paper can offer other creative and interesting news not covered in the MSM. I suspect the new media can release news faster due to less redtape. but maybe i am wrong…. News is only news when it is fresh. If wait for 4 hours then release the news, that would be ‘news that was’.

But i fear SPH or Mediacorp may have competition if this is realised.
I would feel heartbroken for them and cry at night…. they so nice and bombastic wor.

Imagine what the new reading experience will be like.

to help the new media, i do not mind donating $100 cool bucks cash if I am asked. No questions asked. I think if the new media is realised, I could recoperate this 100 bucks in 1 half a year or so. and then after that, its all free news and alternative commentaries and forum and discussions and comments.
Maybe this will the the next Giant Killer or Apathy Buster.

May the Momentum be with you.

hey maybe, readers can get to see all those unpublished articles and be allowed to judge why these were never approved? like this can let them exercise their intellectual capacity and see how people write and learn learn and have fun fun wor.

not bad mah?

i think good good de.

no hum wan. afterall, i got 1 time got tired of reading news written by the same MSM writer leh. 1 time only hor. i not sure how many more times in future bcos future is uncertain.

i mean for 1 news or article, if 2 person writes about it, maybe different taste wor.

this means ALTERNATIVE. this is the alternativity I am looking forward to.

hey, who knows, angels may fund the new media leh? but then hor….like that means…..someone control…..something?

it should be dynamic and informal to a certain extent.

Hello there,

Frankly, I dont mind donating a couple of hundred either to TOC. Only lets be clear, this isnt new. There are some onliners who have already been doing it for donkey years. One of them is those chaps who seem to hang out in singaporedaily. They are serious rp gamers. You can all go down there and read their annual request for alms on the 30th ticker. However, they seem to be transacting in fake money. The way it works is you use real money to buy fake money to subscribe. One reason why they do it this way is to avoid transactional scrutiny. Another group is the norrathlanders based in the states. They are also a community of onliners. Only they do it by ebaying play credits over the international auction run which allows them access to convertible real money in the form of lindens. Generally, subscription is the right way to go, as I cannot see anything growing or even competing with the likes of the MSM unless it is properly funded. Only TOC needs to get the revenue streaming side right, they need to know every single loophole so well, that they are untouchable like those guys who hang out in the Singaporedaily. Those guys have even been hauled up and interviewed several times by the hk authorities. After 3 days of grilling they had to let him go. As they couldnt find anything on him. He is like teflon. Subscription is definitely the way forward, but TOC would need to approach it professionally or they may end up getting themselves in trouble. If you know what I mean.

Let me know when to put the money in the pot!

Just my 2 cents

Dear People,

You must first understand that the average Malay-Muslim Singaporean has a different “taste-bud” ; they do NOT view things the same way as you do. Yes – we Muslims certainly appreciate some of the issues discussed on TOC – especially where Economics is involved.

But other issues we differ. Things like Euthanasia, Foreign Policy, Response to events in Malaysia & Indonesia and so on – are viewed differently.

That in itself is NOT a problem. BUT when you enter the realm of politics – you will then need Muslim votes and support. Now if your platform excludes Muslim interests – how then are you going to get Muslim votes and support ?

Singapore is NOT fortress America. We are surrounded by Muslim countries in upheaval. Indeed – they are becoming more and more Muslim everyday….For how long can TOC evade the Malay-Muslim issue ????????

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

Dear redbean Post#11;

your wish that the Government people be here interacting with netizens must be one that most others here shared.

I posted a few calls here(TOC) for the leaders to respond to allegations made by netizens on them so that they could prove to all that the allegations were not true but there was never any reaction. One kind commenter suggested that I desist from making those calls and let ‘those people settle their own affairs, I accepted the advice.

However,

there is an organization known as the School of Policy Studies whose staff are task to ’study’ into policy matters and I believed they are paid with public money(taxes). These are specialists engaged full time to study and examine policies and their purposes and effects in the relationships between the leaders and the people. And they must be helping to formulate the ‘best policies’ for the Government to implement for the goods of the people and the country. These Policy Studies Professionals collectively must be and should be the Bridge for the Government and the People

I strongly and sincerely think that these policy studies professionals should participate in the discussions here with members of the public.

As regard the Issue of Malay/Islam as brought up by Dr Syed Alwi, I would like to bring his attention to some commenters reminding TOC to steer clear of religious matters and to moderate comments carrying religious connotations. These requests were made recently during the Christmas Season when some posters extended their wishes with praises to their belief. Despite being an atheist with no prejudice against any religion, I and many others do wish that TOC WILL REMAIN RELIGIOUS- FREE infinitely. It is sensitive and let us respect each others belief by keeping ones’ own religion in the heart.

As Andrew had rightly and reasonably explained, TOC is for all Singaporeans irrespective of their races. We, the participants, have to accept this fair treatment accorded to us by TOC.

THE INTERNET IS FREE FOR ANYONE TO EXPRESS THEIR PERSONAL AND COMMUNAL AGENDA IN THEIR OWN SITES AND IT IS UP TO ANY INDIVIDUAL TO SET UP THEIR DOMAINS.

patriot

To Dr Syed Alwi;

I read Ridzwan. com regularly and posted comments there infrequently.

Ridzwan is a good writer in my opinion, who can deal with religions in a very sensible and sensitive manner. He is able to portray his understandings of Islam in relation to politics, cultures and livings in practical and relevant ways.

Ridzwan.com is a site that I will strongly recommend to any netizen who wish to further understand our Malay/Muslim compatriots.

Yours truly: patriot

I second Patriot for his call
to ensure TOC remain religion-free.

It should not just be religion-neutral.

It has to be religion-free. for obvious reasons.
Discussions about religions, if legal, should be done elsewhere, with all due respect to all religions. Again , for obvious reasons too clear to have to explain.

This is a social-political discussion site.

in my honest opinion.

feel free to comment on my comment that i commented.

Dear Patriot,

If you put it that way – then my reply to you is quite simple – please do NOT hope to get Muslim votes during elections if you are going to ignore Muslim voices.

The point I want to make is that – it seems that this nascent Democratic movement here – is dominated by Non-Muslims. Furthermore this movement does not – yet – have a platform that is inclusive enough to accomodate Muslim voters. Singapore is surrounded by Muslim countries in upheaval and unless this infant Democratic movement in Singapore can accomodate Muslim views and interests – it will NOT go far.

If you want Muslim votes and support during elections – then you must accomodate Muslim views and interests. Period.

Perhaps that is why the PAP introduced the GRC system to begin with !!! While many of you do not like the GRC system – this debate here shows you why the PAP introduced it. You have to look beyond your own immediate interests in order to govern a multi-racial and multi-religious country.

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

Patriot & Dr Alwi

How can you be so dismissive of Dr Alwi? Why dont you let him share with all of us what he means by “muslim interest.” My feel is, if its so important to him and the community which he points too; then it should be accorded the full measure of diplomatic respect for us to listen to him as he bears the full story out. Pls Dr Alwi disregard that fool, do continue, I really seek to understand what you mean by muslim interest.

I feel however Dr Alwi, I must inform you to be fair; although I am not a muslim; I speak and write fluent arabic and even know the hadith well enough along with the works of the muslim scholars; this I gathered during my stint as the liaison officer in the planet of D’ni / which were populated predominantly by gulf gamers.

Patriot, you are a fool. Let the man speak. Do not be surprised, if you may even learn something new out of it.

Tell be Dr Alwi. Share with me in the spirit of muqharitzah. I seek to understand.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Believer of Religion A may just fully believe in relgion A and may not agree or believe in the existence of Religion B and vice versa and
i suppose this reason alone is good enough for why
TOC is wise to remain religion-free.

Everyone can have different beliefs.
Every believer may like others to become their believer out of love and care for people. This zeal can cause friction as time goes by.

this is why religion A believe congregates in a temple or church of their believe and not in that of religion B.

Dear People,

I am going to be a Devil’s Advocate here by asking the following question :

Is TOC marginalising the ethnic-minority voices in our pluralistic society ??

What is your view ? Do you think that any political party in Singapore needs the votes of the ethnic minority ?

Speak your mind !

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Hi, i still strongly feel TOC should keep to OB markers. If there are any reasons for the government to shut TOC down, this would easily be it.

Discussion of religious issues is possible, ONLY if the government is willing to push the OB markers and allow intelligent discussion. The problem is that such discussions easily manifest into intense and personal domains for arguments and defence which is atypical of religious discussions.

From the strong language used in trying to raise the points about discussing islamic issues, I personally sense defensiveness and slight indignation at being slighted. Correct me if I am wrong, my apologies. This is however, understandable. This is also precisely why I feel TOC should not venture into commenting on religious issues given the climate that can easily evolve.

However, that is not to say that we should ignore it altogether. Nobody should ignore anybody, and minority rights should be respected and accepted. It is just that TOC should not give any authority any excuse to shut it down, so before it can engage in such issues, perhaps arguments for the inclusion of such discussions should be directed at the government instead.

Singapore must and should progress as a whole. TOC should, for now, exist as a medium of discussion and alternative media to cover issues that encompasses Singaporeans, not Chinese, Malay or Indians, but Singaporeans.

=) Happy 2008 everyone!

[i]If you want Muslim votes and support during elections – then you must accomodate Muslim views and interests. Period.

Perhaps that is why the PAP introduced the GRC system to begin with !!! While many of you do not like the GRC system – this debate here shows you why the PAP introduced it. You have to look beyond your own immediate interests in order to govern a multi-racial and multi-religious country.

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi[/i]

hello abang
are you sayin/admitting malay/islam candidates are not good enough to stand for their OWN election?
that they need a helpin hands to goes through back door via GRC?
yes or no will do?
what about the indians in malaysia?
do you see them beggin for a GRC teams
in malaysia?
yet some of them are highend class politicans!
so you see
dr syed alwi
please visit kelantan lane clinic
i know its a VD clinic
your brain is infected with VD thinkin
nothin more
don’t
PLEASE
used the malay as voters
this ain’t runnin for mayorships in uncle sam of america
you shamed my drinkin malay/islam kakis
the kakis of mine
earned more than i do
worked in higher position
and brin home the ikan kepala more tasty than i can afford
some of my malay/islam kakis
fully paid their 5 room hdb flat in FULL
yet they even called themselves
nikolodeon and gatsby
i am sad
which is why
i have already mentioned
this religious issue cannot be discuss @ all
because with people liked you
you want a handicap to start with…

Dear Syed Alwi,

You’re getting tedious. While you’re advocating covering more Muslim-related interests, have you thought about the non-Muslims in Singapore? Why don’t you say that we should also cover the interests of the Christians, Budhists, Taoists, the various other minority religion devotees, and the freethinkers as well. It’s only fair isn’t it?

Just as Muslims do not agree with some of the things taught by other religions, non Muslims would hardly agree with some of Islam’s teachings.

If you want to look at things regionally, then look at it globally too. Islam isn’t the only religion in the world.

Dearest Dr Syed Alwi;

please allow me to enlighten You a little bit.

You have repeatedly made a statement of truth that Singapore in located in the midst of the Malay Archipelago which is domiciled predominantly by Malay Races/Muslims. However, diplomatic interstate relations are hardly issues discuss in(at) TOC which is more concern with our(citizens’) wellbeings in our domestic affairs.

Dr Syed, You leave me an impression that You misreading TOC.
As far as we know, TOC is Race and Colour Blind, your comments were not and never censored despite your championing of Minority Race Agenda, do You see the point?
By alleging that TOC had/has not consider the importance of the Minority Votes, You have actually slighted TOC, any reader and participant of this Site will be able to discern that TOC caters to no personal or communal entity.

You have harped on the importances of the roles the Minority Races play in nation building and I fully concur with You that almost everyone of all Races in Singapore work very very hard for their own survivals and progresses. As such, what is the difference between majority Race and minority races?

And lastly, to be candid and frank with You, You should not assume that TOC will morp into a political party, maybe some members may become politicians, but not neccessarily under TOC Banner. The other assumption, I suspect, You have wrongly assumed that if TOC ‘look after’ the Malay/Muslims Minority, the Latter will all support TOC in election or in ideology. You may like to ask around your community for an idea.

And do read again my posting above which states that the calls to TOC to be religion-free were made DURING CHRISTMAS WHEN AND WHERE GREETINGS WERE MADE WITH MENTIONS OF FAITH.

Yours truly: patriot

Dr Syed Alwi (#1):

Can you be more specific on what you’re hoping for? Is it that there should be more articles on Malay opinions? Or is that that articles that are written ought to take into account the opinions of Malays?

To the former, I do not think TOC ought to make a special effort in doing. After all, I cannot recall (but I could be wrong) any articles that is explicitly aimed at expressing the opinions of other ethnic groups. Currently, the main concerns of TOC seems to be on the poor of Singapore as well as the failings of the government, i.e. general issues of Singaporeans, and this is goes above ethnic issues. Of course, if a well written piece by an external writer is sent to TOC expounding these views, I think they will be more than welcome to publish it.

If it is the latter, then maybe the writers at TOC should take note of it. Like I said, I’m not aware of articles that are leaving out Malay opinion, but that’s because I’ve never taken ethnicity into consideration (majority or minority) when reading.

Ultimately, I think the best way is to have Malay writers, but they (writers) are not easy to find.

So in response to your devil’s advocate question (#24), I doubt that TOC is doing so. And of course, any political groups need the support of minority (after all, in principle, a democracy is a protection of the minority), but do avoid conflating TOC with any political groups.

“there is an organization known as the School of Policy Studies whose staff are task to ’study’ into policy matters and I believed they are paid with public money(taxes). These are specialists engaged full time to study and examine policies and their purposes and effects in the relationships between the leaders and the people. And they must be helping to formulate the ‘best policies’ for the Government to implement for the goods of the people and the country. These Policy Studies Professionals collectively must be and should be the Bridge for the Government and the People

I strongly and sincerely think that these policy studies professionals should participate in the discussions here with members of the public.”

OK so tell me how are you and me going to deal with these ppl without the brudderhud, can you pls share with me Patriot?

Tell me patriot can you deal with twenty scholars in one go? Well they can. And to them it is sup sup siaoh. So what are you really recommending patriot a walk over?

And while we’re at it, why are you even advocating for the Muslims based on votes?

If you feel that Muslims (and other minority races / religions) are being marginalised, then work to change it because we’re all Singaporeans, and no one should be discriminated against based on race / religion. It’s a sorry state when it’s done because of votes, and not because it is what is right.

Patriot

let me tell you how much I donated to the bruderhud last year, I gave them $39.20 and this was what they came out with

http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2008/10/30/suggested-solutions-for-managing-e-relationships-between-

First time I read it, I had head and tail and everything in between my head!

Oei Hong Leong donated millions to the LKY school of whatever and pray tell what did they come up with when we bloggers needed someone to shed light into darkness? What did AIMs accomplish for the millions they spent!

Remember it was $39.20!

A BIG FAT NOTHING!

Wake up lah Patriot! Wakey wakey!

I dont see why TOC should not delve into what Dr Syed Alwi has proposed.

I think we have all grown matured since LSL allows us to have more political space.

If we self censored like the MSM then it will only bring us backward. We should be able to handle racial issues in online journalism which MSM has so far avoided.

I remembered a reporter wrote on Muslim Malay issues during the 2008 National Day and her report was surprisingly allowed and commended. Many Malays also wrote in to say that they were marginalised in our society. To me it was a step forward in our society for racial issues which are all hidden but always there.

Perhaps Dr Syed Alwi can try to write a piece on such issue and emailed to TOC. If it is valid I dont see why TOC won’t publish it.

Thanks.

Dear People,

I do not live in a make-believe world. I am honest enough to face political reality. Our immediate neighbours are NOT India, China nor America. They are Muslim countries. For better or for worse – thats our karma (according to Vivian Balakrishnan).

Indeed – so serious are the implications – that our founding fathers thought it deserved mention in Article 152 of our Constitution. Have you heard of Article 152 of our beloved Constitution ?

Now – the Malay-Muslims have a dear attachment to all things Islamic. If TOC and this nascent Democratic movement wants to be inclusive and wants legitimacy not only from the ethnic majority – but also from the Malays – then she MUST provide a platform for Malay-Muslim voices.

What does being inclusive mean when you refuse to provide a voice for your ethnic minorities ? Where are the articles on Islam ? On Malaysia ? On Indonesia ? On the rise of Islamic parties there ? Where ? Where are the articles on Malay-Muslim issues in Singapore ? Where ?

What does the Constitution mean if Article 152 is ignored – by the very people who claim to uphold the Constitution ?

What does being sensitive mean – when your Muslim neighbours are going through an Islamic upheaval – but you don’t carry any relevant analysis ?

TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities – TOC is no better than the MSM.

At the end of the day – political realities will prevail. If this infant Democratic movement cannot find space to include Malay-Muslim voices – then I am sure there will be other political parties – like the PAP – who will capitalise on this……Remember Aljunied GRC…………

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

Dr Syed Alwi, stop shooting in the dark. Please be specific on the issues you want this blog to discuss.You should propose the topics. Of course not topics that
will result in riot .Pushing the OB slightly may be ok but not over to the taboo area.
You don’t represent the minority. Don’t go fishing in ponds infested with piranhas or buayas.

[i]TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities – TOC is no better than the MSM.

At the end of the day – political realities will prevail. If this infant Democratic movement cannot find space to include Malay-Muslim voices – then I am sure there will be other political parties – like the PAP – who will capitalise on this……Remember Aljunied GRC…………

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi
[i/]

i dont recall/see any TOC blockin YOU for your writeup?
but here you are
DEMANDIN a free write
with a handicap
liked
if you are not with me
i would not give you
a malay/islam votes from geylang serai perhaps?
what constitution are you mubblin here?
according to MY constituion
i have the right to MY cpf withdrawal @ aged 55
do i see you fightin for MY constitution?
you would have said
but
i am not reachin 55 so soon
so what kind of platform do you require?
give me a floorplan
unless you also expect me to draft a floorplan for you
free of charge as well?
whatever
OUR neighbour countries is doin to upheave evils or any otherwise
i leave that to our prince the prime minister and his father to solve it out
i don’t think mindef would just hand me the armoury keys for me/us to help ourselves…
so would you be kind enough to stand on your owned 2 feet
for i already find it quite difficult/expensive to buy a goreng pisang or two…

“What does being sensitive mean – when your Muslim neighbours are going through an Islamic upheaval – but you don’t carry any relevant analysis ?”

i really don’t see how is this being sensitive or insensitive of TOC. Since when is TOC indebted into analysing what our neighbours do, Muslim or non-Muslim? and how is that related to TOC being insensitive?

“TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities – TOC is no better than the MSM.”

An alternative does not mean purposely stepping across OB markers. It means a different view of current affairs and politics and whatsoever, not bringing up clearly forbidden issues.

I tried to explain why we should not let the last few bastions of free press be subverted by government actions by crossing clear OB lines. Would you rather have a full-blown online forum to discuss racial and religious issues, in which netizens will easily take sides behind anonymous pennames and create unnecessary ill-feelings and then the government steps in to shut it down, or you prefer to have a functioning TOC that tries to bring news to all Singaporeans, regardless of race, language or religion? Like I said, what you require now, you are asking from the wrong avenue. You need to ask the government to shift the OB markers, before TOC can move. I don’t think TOC should be partial to any race or religious groups just because they ask for it, and risk being cut off by the government and thus depriving the majority of the population/readership. and no this comment was not meant only for Muslims, although it might seem so because you brought it up. It is meant for all racial and religious groups.

“What does being inclusive mean when you refuse to provide a voice for your ethnic minorities ? Where are the articles on Islam ? On Malaysia ? On Indonesia ? On the rise of Islamic parties there ? Where ? Where are the articles on Malay-Muslim issues in Singapore ? Where ?”

Last but not least, Muslims are minorities yes, but not the only ones. Same goes to Islam. There are other religions too. Please do try to be more understanding because your world does not mean the whole world, and the same standards applies to everyone else, Christians, Catholics, Free-thinkers, Buddhists etc.

and of course, if Dr Syed Alwi here has a great article to contribute and which does not cross OB boundaries(key factor), please feel free to contribute. I do not believe TOC will attempt to censor or not publish it.

Dear Syed Alwi,

First, I do not understand why you keep talking about “winning the minority or Malay vote”. TOC is not a political party which is standing for elections. So, there are no questions of winning any votes, be they majority or minority votes. The issue doesn’t even come into consideration as far as TOC is concerned. So, I am not sure why you keep bringing up that point.

Second, TOC has never said that it totally forbids articles on Muslim issues. In fact, we published at leats four articles relating to religion or Muslim/Islam issues:

Beyond Tokenism: Malays, integration and the SAF.

Malays in 2007: Renewed confidence amidst turbulence?.

Islam in Singapore : Where to from here ?.

Religion and the right not to respect it.

For your information, in the last two years that TOC has been online, we have only rejected one article about Islam. It was about a couple’s situation vis a vis Shariah Law. We rejected it for publication as it was a one-sided account from the husband’s point of view and also we, the editors, did not have a good-enough understanding of the Law. So, we decided it was best not to publish it.

Finally, let me assure everyone that articles about race and religion are welcome on TOC – subject to the same criterias we have for all articles – and to the editors’ approval for publication.

I think some of your criticisms about us are unfair.

Regards,
Andrew Loh

Syed Alwi,

You said, “TOC presents itself as an alternative to the MSM. But by shutting out the voices of our ethnic minorities – TOC is no better than the MSM.”

On the contrary, I have always said that TOC can never be an alternative to the MSM. I do not know where you got the impression that we are. I think you are mistaken.

You should know the huge gulf between a professionally-run full media outfit and a simple blog site. So, the comparison is not a very accurate one.

Regards,
Andrew Loh

Hi anonymouse #33:

If You believe me, it had appeared to me that the Brudderhud is about the Best Alternative that Singaporeans can hope for and have.

For $39.20, oops! Pardon me, I did not know You donated, we got a detail dissertation on Internet Regulation. I read the Thread(highlighted in red#33) and some before it and ended up asking myself if there ‘is a need to regulate’? And ‘what to regulate and what for’? Too many questions for myself and in the end just concluded to myself regulation or no regulation, what’ the difference?
I did not contribute anything to read the Threads, but I respect the Brudderhud since I started reading Sg Daily years back and harbour the Wish that the Brudderhud will stand infront to lead the people(Singaporeans). The hope is still standing.

Yes, millions of dollars were donated to a so-called School of Policies Studies and all they(policies researchers/specialists) did when put to the limelights(prints/telecasts/broadcasts) were to parrot(repeat) the Leadership or were the Leaders using scripts written by these Policies Professionals? I admit I don’t know, I just have the impression that we don’t need them, but they got millions(of dollars). Another impression; easy money.

Anonymouse; I am hoping, hoping that there will be less antogonism between the Government and the People and amongst the People.

patriot

My apology to all;

may I insert here that I first started reading the Brudderhud at Intelligent Singaporeans and posted as scb and saintmoron.

patriot

Dear TOC,

You cannot be a responsible socio-political blog – if you refuse to shoulder the political implications of your writings. By publishing articles critical of the Establishment – you encourage and support the Opposition cause. If you now want to wash your hands clean – well – thats a little late.

You are branded and stereotyped – blogger-activism, anti-Establishment etc Thats your own doing. The question now that you have attained such status is – are you now going to shut out Malay-Muslim voices from this nascent Democratic movement ?

You bring forward only 4 articles on Malay-Muslim issues. Good – indeed – 2 of them were mine !!

I – Dr Syed Alwi – wrote 2 of the miserly 4 articles ! Goodness. Is that something to brag about ?

Look people – TOC has been branded as anti-Establishment. You have a moral responsibility. You cannot just write articles like these, organise blogger-activisim – and then walk away from your moral responsibilities. The Americans have a saying :

If you wanna play – then you gotta pay !

Let the world know – 2 of your 4 miserly articles by Malays, on Malay-Muslim issues – were by me !!

What are your plans for the future ? Do you plan to carry articles from Malaysia ? From Indonesia ? From other Singaporean Malay-Muslims ? You can easily carry good articles from Malaysia and Indonesia.

You cannot start a Democratic movement – and then suddenly walk away from the responsibilities that comes along with it.

And that is why the PAP will continue to rule this country for the longest time………The Alternatives are even worse…………

Sincerely
Dr Syed Alwi

Anonmouse is 100% right. Dont be surprise, if he or she represents 90% of the mindset of the people. Recently, Kenneth Paul Tan from the LKY school was quoted as saying.

“What civil society activists and conscientious citizens have to do is not just to step back and say ‘this is just tokenism, this is just concessionary’. What is probably a better strategy is to occupy these spaces, because in a sense, if you do not use it, you do lose it, or if you use it badly or dangerously, you also lose it.

So the thing is, whatever spaces emerge, whether they be motivated by tokenistic reasons initially, you can still claim these spaces, you can still make use of them. ”

What he was saying is and please feel free to correct me. If you pay money for a deluxe room in the holiday inn and you get instead a hammock from your tour guide. Then dont comprain so much, use it first. Occupy it, that is better than nothing.

With the millions these people regularly receive and the nonsense they regularly spout what can they offer in the way of solution patriot? What is the point of even talking with people like that who have such a twisted sense of reality.

Anonmouse is right. It makes far more sense to go with people who know what the net is all about. Only they will be able to protect us.

They are decisive and clear. When times are tough. Recently they cut subscription just like that for two years. They used their reserves. No questions, just like bang, bang and bang. Ordinary people are happy as they feel, they are with them.

And when all the gahmen can do like cheong yip seng is comprain like an old woman the net is such a dangerous place. do you ever see them compraining? No they just send their rep and he parachutes right in like a ranger, even when he is attacked here by 20 scholars and lazarus, one man dares to fight and hold his ground, he doesnt ask for help, he fights it out. He may not win all the time, but you dont hear them compraining, they adapt, they thrive, they overcome. I learn alot from just watching them. One is a class A outfit who knows how to survive and make something out of nothing, the other is the bunch of blind mice.

Just my 2 cents

Dear Syed Alwi,

I think four articles is a reflection, perhaps, of the interest in the issues you are concerned about. It’s the same as the gay issue. We do not have many people who would want to write about that either.

But please be reasonable. Understand that writing about any particular ethnic or racial or religious issue requires a deeper understanding of the issues – simply because they are sensitive – or can be sensitive – issues.

And I have said before, honestly and openly, that we in the editorial team do not know everything abot such issues. This is not a desertation of duty (if you want to call it that) but an honest and frank answer.

Having said that, I reiterate that we do not reject all articles about any racial or religious issue.

Lastly, let me say that the question of minorities – be they Malays, PRs or gays, for example – speaking up or getting involved is one faced by many organisations, including political parties. We all know how hard it is for the PAP and the opposition parties to seek out and attract minority candidates, for example.

So, your diatribe against TOC is a misplaced one.

Andrew Loh

You really know why they are so good? Everywhere they go. People have been trying to kill them from day one. They are hated like the Jews. When they first appeared in the gaming network, the white man even shoot them like kangaroos like sport. That was how bad it was. No Mr Oei to write them $7 million checks, instead they get 7 million arrows. No LKY to hide under. Patriot, if you want to see how battle hardened they really are just get those P65 people to come down here. All of them against one of them, and bear in mind that SD fellow is not even their division 1, he is more like their reserve, and dont be surprise if you see just one man mowing them all down like rolling pins. I dun bluff you patriot. You have to see this to believe this.

Syed Alwi,

You said: “You cannot start a Democratic movement – and then suddenly walk away from the responsibilities that comes along with it.”

First of all, we, as many others, seek greater democracy, yes. But to say that because of this, the responsibilities rests solely on us is misguided. The responsibility belongs to each and every Singaporean. Not just us alone.

And we are not “suddenly walk[ing] away” from such responsibilities. Just because we do not cover the issues you are concerned about and cover them as much as you like, does not mean we are “suddenly walking away” from the responsibilities.

I think that is a simplistic and unfair conclusion you have drawn.

By the way, Syed Alwi, if you would like to contribute articles about the Malay community or Islam, we will be glad to consider them for publication – just as your previous articles were.

#44)
“You cannot be a responsible socio-political blog – if you refuse to shoulder the political implications of your writings. By publishing articles critical of the Establishment – you encourage and support the Opposition cause. If you now want to wash your hands clean – well – thats a little late.

You are branded and stereotyped – blogger-activism, anti-Establishment etc Thats your own doing. The question now that you have attained such status is – are you now going to shut out Malay-Muslim voices from this nascent Democratic movement ?”

And so what if TOC does have the reputation of supporting the opposition? What in fact, does supporting the opposition have to do with supporting Islam? We are not an Islamic country, and I’d be perfectly happy to leave Islam (and every other religion) out of the equation.

Since two of your articles were published, in what way does this show that you, or any other Malay Muslim writer doesn’t have a voice? Why blame TOC if none of you are willing to spend the time and effort to volunteer with TOC and write? As you pointed out, TOC at the moment is heavily dominated by Chinese. So why don’t you take the lead and join TOC as a writer? You don’t really expect most non-Muslims to have the deep understanding of Islam of an actual practitioner and be able write authoritatively on it do you? Expecting everyone to be familiar with the teachings of a religion that is not theirs is the height of arrogance.

You accuse TOC of being discriminatory, but thus far, I’ve seen no calls for putting any race or religion above others except from YOU. Why do you not advocate the same for ALL minorities? Why Islam and Malays only?

Dear Readers of TOC,

regardless of race, language or religion,
singaporeans have proven we can live in harmony.
lets keep it that way.
there is no need to get agitated in anyway for all of us.
religions are all beautiful.
Lets show our tolerance for others.
Lets discuss things with a cool mind.

its not the end of the world.
just the end of 2008.

we have bigger objectives to focus on – our common goals.

Dear Dr Syed;

please allow me to add on to Andrew Lohs’ Post#49.

I am convinced by Singaporedaddy Post#23.

Dr Syed; do write to TOC and get members of your community to contribute as well. As I have said above, You have not been censored and You Know as You had contributed two articles. Yes, I was foolish and maybe even stubborn not to hear You out, let me just do it as adviced.

Mr Bean, I share your sentiments for I was, am never disappointed whenever I read the Brotherhood Press. I have just returned here from the Sg Daily 30th Dec 2008. Darkness has just spoken(written) as usual, he is comforting/consoling netizens and he is shining as usual.

It would be nice if parliamentarians, including the Post 65 ers, are to engage us here, I wish they hear me here. I am sure we all welcome them, Cyberspace is for all of us.

patriot

To #44 Dr Syed Alwi

TOC is a responsible social political blog indeed. Sure, there are numerous articles that are critical of the policies and actions/non-action by our establishments, that doesn’t imply TOC is anti-establishment.

Just like 66.6% who voted for the PAP doesn’t mean this group of voters will agree with every action and policy implemented by the PAP govt. Conversely, the other 33.4% who voted against the PAP doesn’t mean all of them will shoot down every action and policy of the PAP govt.

All of us have the right to agree or disagree with the establishments. We give credit where credit is due and we put across our views if we disagree. That doesn’t mean we will support the opposition cause blindly. By the same token, just because TOC has more articles criticising the establishments doesn’t imply it is supporting the opposition cause.

TOC has never stated it is an all-encompassing blog that will cover every issue of interest to all parties. If one is to look at the page view statistics of the different articles, it is quite clear that certain issues generate more interest than others. Similarly, some articles attracted more comments than others. But it did not stop the articles of lesser general interest being published.

The fact that you have 2 of your articles published shows that TOC will publish articles submitted deemed to be of interest to its readers. If you feel that there are more issues related to areas of your concern, than feel free to write articles to express your views on them and submit to TOC. Better still, find more like minded people to contribute their articles.

TOC are managed by a group of volunteers and articles are written by writers on topics of interest to them. If their interest area does not coincide with yours, then it is not their fault. I don’t think it is their responsibility to cater to the needs of everyone. If the articles published do not interest me, I won’t bother to return. You can do the same.

When you talk about carry articles about Malaysia and Indonesia, what nature of articles are you referring to ? Malaysia local politics ? Indonesia local politics ? What is the purpose of publishing such articles ?

In my humble opinion, with due respect to the TOC writers and the many contributors, how much do we know about the affairs of Malaysia or Indonesia to be able to comment much less to write articles that is fair and substantiated.

In fact, articles commenting on our own national affairs already have lots of room for improvement. So let’s not stick our fingers in somebody else’s pie.

Did TOC started any democratic movement ? Democracy is enshrined in our Constitution. Our school kids recite “To build a democratic society” in the national pledge everyday. Democracy is supposed to be alive already in Singapore.

TOC only provide a platform for Singapore citizens to exercise their right to express their opinion and they have more than carry out their responsibilities admirably.

Dear TOC,

I think that you can get good articles of interest on Malay-Muslim issues if you are willing to publish articles from the Malaysian cyber-space. Try Malaysia Today. I am sure Raja Petra will be helpful. Otherwise try Malaysiakini and so on. I myself have many articles published in the Malaysian cyber-space.

Indeed – in my writings and postings – I took the stand that we must be careful about the rise of PAS. Writing about Malay-Muslim issues can even be a criticism of the Malay-Muslim community ! Have you people thought about that ?

Personally I am of the opinion that TOC should simply publish some of the better articles in Malaysian cyber-space. Thats good enough. It can even be written by Non-Malays. As long as it is of interest to the Malay-Muslim community in particular – and the larger Singaporean society in general – then its worth publishing.

Where there’s a will – there will be a way…………..I hope to see a better, more mature TOC in 2009.

Happy New Year everyone.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Hi there!

TOC in my view is just like any other blog out there. I have personally seen posters here barred for no apparent reason. Their material just removed without rhyme or reason. Neither did I see anything defamatory or subversive about what these people wrote. They just held a different opinion from those who happen to run TOC. Dont believe me go and ask Andrew, I even have mirror copies to substantiate what I have just written. He would be the first to agree to this. So let us not fool ourselves or delude ourselves that TOC is any higher or lower than what it is.

It is A blog. Like all others. Nothing more or less. Like the others. No higher or taller. Just a blog.

Syed Alwi, the sooner you understand this. The better it will be for you and all of us.

i’m really sorry but asking TOC to carry more muslim-malay articles in 2009 does not translate into a better, more mature TOC, just as asking TOC to carry more Christian or Buddhist articles will make TOC better or mature. Please don’t be as narrow minded to think that the entire world is either with Islam and Muslims or against them. This is not the case.

You have said something honest at the top that basically spelled out what you stand for. ‘Now – the Malay-Muslims have a dear attachment to all things Islamic.”

This sentence tells me just exactly what you stand for, which is what i mentioned above, about the world being either with Islam or against Islam. I fully accept the attachment that they have, but it is just narrow-minded to think that the rest of the world that doesn’t hold dear those things are against you, or that they don’t value the things you all hold dear. Please, this world goes beyond religion and race. Both are big things but not universal things. Love, compassion and empathy are. And TOC has repeatedly shown you that there are open to articles as long as OB markers are met and that min standards are reached.

Happy New Year to you too, and may 2009 be a great year for you. =)

Hi #42 patriot

I figured all along you were SCB. Glad to see some IS forumers here. Infact I have seen many hanging out here of late, must be due to SD.

“If You believe me, it had appeared to me that the Brudderhud is about the Best Alternative that Singaporeans can hope for and have.”

Do you have an idea who these people are SCB? Do you play? If you do, the first thing you will realize is these are the most rigid and inflexible people on the face of this planet. No one doubts, they are a class A act and they have successfully grown the cult of invicibility. But their motto is, you do it our way or you dont do it! Doesnt matter whether it is PAP or the King of Nepal, their attitude is so like that one.

They are also not perfect beings. Have you ever wondered to yourself how did a small group of gamers accumulate so much power that they can even threaten Sony? I bet you didnt know they were small did you. They talk as if there as so many of them. Some rumors in the gaming forum put their size them down to less than 8 people. Did you know that SCB?

I play so I know the game. Good nite. I am going to hlp now.

Dr Syed Alwi

In all yr comments, I do not see any offer to help working with the TOC team on issues that you think are impt..

Offer the help and see what happens?

And help doesn’t mean writing articles yrself. Send an email to TOC

#18) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 5.51 pm

You must first understand that the average Malay-Muslim Singaporean has a different “taste-bud” ; they do NOT view things the same way as you do.

#25) Dr Syed Alwi on December 30th, 2008 6.29 pm Dear People,

Is TOC marginalising the ethnic-minority voices in our pluralistic society ??

Dr Syed, you said “You must first understand …”, so the matter is simply lack of undersanding and knowledge of the issues, not “marginalising”.

Start the ball rolling, help people understand the issues you see. Start writing and submit them to blogs.

Dear People,

No Mr Brown – I disagree with you about TOC being just a blog. You cyber-activists have a moral responsibility since you cyber-activists are pushing for a pro-Democracy movement. You cannot simply wash your hands and walk-away when that responsibility comes-a-calling.

To A. Tan – I have sent e-mails regarding this matter to TOC. I myself have written articles for TOC. So don’t say that I did not do anything.

At the end of the day – this pro-Democracy movement will have to face political realities like everyone else. I am tired of arguing about this. So let it remain and let everyone take notice of it.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

#61) Dr Syed Alwi on December 31st, 2008 9.16 am Dear People,

At the end of the day – this pro-Democracy movement will have to face political realities like everyone else. I am tired of arguing about this. So let it remain and let everyone take notice of it.

Now is pre-dawn of this pro-Democracy movement, there is much works to be done before we move anywhere closer to the end of the day. By then, I think you will see what you want. But not now, not just yet.

interesting discussion here. toc is a social political blog where such issues are discussed. if possible, we should avoid mixing political issues with religious issues. the polarisation among the various religious groups is too deep and irreconcilable that you cannot expect them to agree on their fundamental beliefs. any forms of superficial agreements, or sitting together, is only for political expediency. deep down, some religions just cannot accommodate other religions. it is futile and destructive to embroil religion with politics. toc must be aware of this danger and stay clear of it.

as for discussing malay/muslim interests, anyone is at liberty to share his or her views and let the bloggers carry on from there. syed alwi can start the ball rolling by making a few posts here to generate interest in the subject. if the issues are interesting the rest can just join in.

it is unfair to insist that other bloggers or toc initiate posts on malay/muslim issues as they may not be too conversant with them. the issues must originate from those who are passionate about them. it can be hypocritical and superficial if done otherwise.

Hi

(a) syed alwi – this is a social political blog.

(b) Mr brown / Gilbert / Bean – no one disagrees a dialogue between the blogging community and govt will benefit society. The question is not whether, but how can this be accomplished constructively?

We like to believe the best way to do it is through TOC. But does TOC represent the majority or collective mindset which makes up blogosphere? I dont think they do.

For there to be an all inclusive dialogue. It doesnt pay to marginalize anyone. Look what happened when deregulated the net marginalized the bros? They went their way. They openly refused to work with AIMs. They went direct to govt. That was crazy. So even the bros need to come in to make it rounded. What you said abt them Mr Brown is very true, “you do it our way. Or you dont do it!” That is why if the relationship is not well managed it will turn ugly.

I do however believe TOC should harness their strenght and experience especially in growing a online newspaper. They can help alot in the billing, legal and economic part, but like I said, you need to manage the relationship.

My fear is the relationship between the bros and toc has deteriorated markly. This I have noticed from SD recent post. He is holding back information. That is never a good sign. To me, it means he is ordered to do so. It also means they are preparing for war. My hope is that both parties can sit down and cooperate and work towards a mutually restive and dignified working relationship. Only then can all of us benefit and reap the rewards.

Happy new year all!

The only people that are dependent & complaent are those civil servants. This country don’t need so many of them. Go ahead & retrench 50% of them since they are already so inefficient.

Hi Intellects,
is it possible to discuss ethnicity without risk of discussing religion tied to it?
if not, or very difficult, then for goodness sake, refrain from discussing all these things which will not lead to any productive effect.

To those who accuse with ‘anti-establishment’,

Why not you confess here in TOC to all readers on the last day of 2008
that you are suggesting that no one should have different, alternative opinions?

quote from http://www.dictionary.com :

antiestablishment
–adjective
opposed to or working against the existing power structure or mores, as of society or government: Antiestablishment candidates promised to disband the army, Congress, and the cabinet if elected.

I believe you have used the wrong adjective. Either that or you are against the purpose of an Opposition.

which is it?

come on baby. lets hear your opinion.

happy 2008 (i mean last day of it) :)

Alwi,

“You cyber-activists have a moral responsibility since you cyber-activists are pushing for a pro-Democracy movement. You cannot simply wash your hands and walk-away when that responsibility comes-a-calling.”

That is hogwash. The moral responsibility is on those who are in the community (in your case, the Malay community) to speak up. To push the responsibility to others just because they’re fighting for more democracy is irresponsible. And that is maybe why Singapore is the way it is – everyone pushing the responsibility to someone else.

“Eh! you fighting for democracy? Then please speak up on minority issues!”, while you yourself are not doing anything even though you are from that very same community!

And stop using phrases like , “You cyber-activists..” That smacks of finger-pointing, as if you yourself do not have the responsibility to speak up for your community.

Dr Alwi

When I said “send emails”, I made a mistake. I meant to write “send emails with links to articles that you think TOC shld link to. And give reasons.”

Try this for awhile and tell us abt yr experiences.

And yr statements above on the failure to include Malay Muslims views are so sweeping. Can you give specific examples of articles where TOC shld have reflected their views, but didn’t.

Dear A Tan,

Yes – I HAVE done that ! I have sent e-mails complete with articles etc from Malaysian cyberspace – but to no avail.

Look – I am tired of this debate. You fellas ought to think about these issues deeply. They are NOT trivial and have very serious repercussions.

I quote LKY – “Politics in South East Asia is a deadly serious business…”

Can we end this debate here – and let everyone take notice of what has been said ?? I am too tired to continue this debate………………….

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Syed Alwi,

That is ridiculous. You are tired? You were the one who brought up the topic and started lambasting everyone of those “blogger-activists” for being irresponsible!

Now that you are asked very sharp questions, you want to withdraw? Who is the one being irresponsible now?

Lets take your arguments and see if you can answer these questions constructively:

1. You said 4 articles are “miserly”. How many articles do you wish TOC to publish on Malay/Muslim issues – per day, per week, per month?

2. How do you suggest that TOC find enough people who are adequately qualified to write about Malay/Muslim issues?

Just these two questions for now. Lets see if you can come up with something constructive instead of your finger-pointing and grand demands.

[i] quote LKY – “Politics in South East Asia is a deadly serious business…”

Can we end this debate here – and let everyone take notice of what has been said ?? I am too tired to continue this debate………………….

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi[/i]

ole yes i do take NOTICE
you quote lky
yet i don’t see you in seekin lky help
afterall is he not your leader?
did he not give YOU as a malay/islam an added handicap amon the other races
do you needs me to cite the priviledges in details?
(this will defitenitely irk the mosque followers)
so
it is better for
YOU
to take notice
not me
thats for sured
for i am indeed a cruel heartless cold person
but whenever a beggar stretched his hands
i will give a $ or $2 (mostly $2 as it the only smallest denomination in PAPER)
to any hands whether it dark or halah
for i know
when i am in dire straits
any hands will give me a helpin hands in return……

Dear Gorilla Voice,

Why don’t TOC publish good articles regarding these issues – but from the Malaysian cyberspace ? After all TOC did meet up with Malaysiakini. I am sure Raja Petra of Malaysia Today will be of help if approached by TOC.

You must remember – when you speak of a “we” – who is that “we” ? The Bloggers-13 face a similar problem – they do not carry the Malay-Muslim perspective !

That has always been Singapore’s Malay Dilemma. Thats is why even Yusuf Ishak’s niece (Lily Zubaidah) wrote that book on the Singapore Dilemma !!

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Hi Mr Brown;

thank You very much for the informations.

Indeed I do not play any game, Cyber, Virtual or otherwise except legalized gamblings, if they are games at all, like toto, 4D and big sweep. Anyway my brain lacks the dexterity and my limbs are not as nimble to start playing any game now, no complaint though, it’s part and parcel of going into twilight zone.

It is very sharp of You to know my moniker used previously, there must be a tell tale pattern in my writings. Like to tell me?

On this last day of Year 2008, may I wish You and All Good Health and Plenty of Good Lucks in the Following Years!!

patriot

Good Morning,

Dr Syed Alwi, how is it the Singapore’s Malay Dilemma? Tell me are you referring to the same dilemma that Mahathir wrote about in the 70’s; I dont understand. Can you please kindly explain?

——————————————————————————-

Dear all,

I can understand if some of you choose to write negative things about the brotherhood; but you should try to keep to the facts and not run wild making rabid accusations. This I feel is not too much to ask, common courtesy; that is.

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Okies everybody. Time out.

Here’s something i practice with my writing partners (I work in creative industry, so we do a lot of writing). When we engage in a discussion where either party feel very strongly about their point of view, rather than argue endless, we do what is called ‘the overnight test’.

The Overnight Test saves everyone from a lot of embarassing situations, because you can get so heated up and call the other party names, and everyone get pissed off, and then the next morning, when you wake up, you may realize the other party was right, or has a point. But by then it is a bit too late to acknowledge he is right because very malooo.

So, the best thing we can do is, acknowledge that at this moment you disagree, but you will consider the other party’s POV, and maybe come to agree the next day.

And even when you still you are right, you also realize it is usually not worth getting so worked up for.

Trust me. It works.

So Dr Syed, you must chill a bit and let TOC ponder over your words. I’m sure some of them will make sense, after they get over feeling defensive because your tone was a bit aggressive. And you may also realize the other people who disagreed with you also have a point.

Ok? Everyone? Can?

Group hugs, can? Huuuuugggggssss.

After all, a very enlightened messianic figured called Bono from U2 once sang

“We’re one, but we’re not the same. We get to carry each other, carry each other. One”

Happy new year!

Okies,

With regards to the issue calls to be ‘religious-free’, I quote one of the comments here-

“These requests were made recently during the Christmas Season when some posters extended their wishes with praises to their belief.”

I feel that we need to define exactly what is being religious free. After all, almost everyone has a perception of what ‘God’ means to them… Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Jews, Sikhs… agnostics, and yes, even aetheists. And these really define us as who we are. Eg, my ideas of social justice and morality were formed initially by Confucianism (more of philosophy), and Buddhism, and later, Catholicism. (I have to admit to have a very shallow understanding of every other faiths) And inevitably, whenever I explain my position, I have to explain where the position came from, with regards to my beliefs. Eg, “as a Buddhist, I believe that it is only the right thing to do to be compassionate” Or, a Christian would most likely have to explain why gay rights should or shouldn’t be supported based quite largely on HIS understanding of his religious beliefs.

Or maybe use a few examples of religious figures to back up an argument. But these are also because the examples are known to almost everyone else.

So, let’s not get too politically correct either and keep it so religious-free that it stops people from even saying anything remotely linked to any faiths. Frankly, I find nothing wrong with someone wishing ‘God bless you!” or even post the whole Nativity Story according to Luke during Xmas. I mean, these guys are doing it out of goodwill.

Just because you don’t believe in God, or believe in a different God shouldn’t make you feel offended when someone wishes you well according to his belief. In fact, wouldn’t it be better to be happy, that despite religious difference, that his/her greeting is not just limited to his/her brethen?

But of course, we shouldn’t go too far either. We shouldn’t have the ‘My god is bigger than your god’ kinda arguments here. This shouldn’t be a forum for debating whether Jesus is a prophet or a Savior, or whether Buddha is sexist for initially excluding women in his sangha. These are pointless debates that very rarely convert anyone anyway.

Lastly, fanatism and fundermentalism exists in different forms and not just limited to people of monoethist faiths. Yes, even among aethists. I have known aethists who took offense even on banners hung outside churches. So let’s all just be aware of our own tendencies towards double standards and intolerance.

Shalom, hugs.

I accidentally found some jokes on youtube by this guy:
http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenMikeMike

happy 2008, 31st Dec.

I found it quite offensive at first but then decided that it could have been legal since it was recorded at Howl at the Moon, Singapore.

it perked me up.

oh, forgot to mention, parental guidance advised.

Dr Syed Alwi, In wanting TOC to carry and highlight Malay-Muslim issues you ask: What are the views of Chinese Singaporeans towards Islam? What are the views of the Malay Muslims regarding Islam in Singapore and so on? In my view the majority Singapore Chinese (and others) and the Government have gone extra miles to give a wider berth for the Malays to preach, practice and live by Islam. There is a surfeit of beautiful mosques in every corner of Singapore to serve the Malay/Muslim community. Unlike the churches and temples where attendance seems to be dropping by the day, the mosques, on the other hand, are overflowing with crowds on Fridays. Cars parked in long stretches along roads in breach of traffic rules right up to the traffic light junction is a common sight outside mosques on Fridays. Bring this up and this will be made an “issue” targeted at them. The majority and the traffic police by and large take it along their stride. Do this outside a Church or Temple so brazenly, it is more likely than not, that you will see a summons on the windscreen. Food Courts completely “halal” is another trend in fashion overriding their business viability beyond a limited period. The majority sacrifice their taste buds to accommodate this special minority I have also heard stories of there being micro-oven for the exclusive use of Muslim staff at pantries at some private sector and Govt offices for them to heat up their ‘halal’ food uncontaminated.

You huff and puff without having the intellectual and moral courage to air your inner most thoughts on issues that affect the Malays and Muslims that trouble you. Probably you don’t want to for understandable reasons. Why are not Malays given sensitive posts in Mindef and in Cabinet? To the blue-blood non-Muslim Singaporeans they are Singaporeans (Nationalists) first, everything else (race, religion etc) comes secondary. But for Muslim leaders all over the world (with rare exceptions), both past and present, they are Muslims first, Nationalists second. Islam consumes their mind and Islam runs their lives. Islam is a beautiful and practical religion. I have written an essay on that. But the point to note is that man should control religion and not let religion control him. Let religion be within the boundary of your heart and home and not bring it to public, regional and international space and all will be well and perhaps in 10-20 years you will see a Malay as Permanent Secretary and another as cabinet Minister holding a sensitive portfolio. There is no glass ceiling. It is a ceiling you create for yourself

f there are real issues then they should be discussed, but issues should not be raised simply for the sake of “winning the vote” of some racial/religious group….it will only create trouble. also, if you think there is a lack of representation of “muslim views”, it is even more serious with regard to… say buddhist views on gerrymandering? Besides, if there’s any religious group that receive substantially more air-time than others when it comes to national issues in spore, it’d really have to be the christians above all (thanks to gay issues and their evangelistic nature etc). Is this syed really that insular to think that non-muslims happen to be one homogeneous group? Or he’s probably getting confused after watching too much politics in bolehland, where talking abt some racial/religious “vote” is often a convenient and divisive measure for political ends.

Lastly, you might not like what you ask for…when somebody likewise decides to “win the chinese vote” by suggesting that non-chinese be deported for any number of plausible reasons etc

Dear K Das and Ark

Your comments are dangerous ! If you expect Muslims to somehow be “less Muslim” – then I think that there will be trouble.

If Singapore attempts to dilute Islam – Malays will simply switch loyalty to Malaysia and Indonesia. Worse still – the JI and Al-Qaeda will take advantage of this.

You want to change Islam ? Be my guest. It will take you another 100 to 200 years. These are the political realities facing you.

As for Ark – my challenge to you is to do a Google search and read my articles in Malaysian cyberspace. You have no idea who you are talking to. Go find out about my writings in Malaysiakini, Malaysia Today and elsewhere in Malaysian cyberspace.

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Dr Syed Alwi,

that’s a touchy issue that you are trying to get TOC into…i believe it is literally a minefield.

foreign relationship is important, but domestic matters are even more so….and TOC has been trying to bring up alot of domestic issue and i say that it is very well done.

Dear Dr Syed Alwi,

You put provocative questions and want answers and when others do, you get hot under the collar. To label the expression of views of others critical of yours as dangerous is, by itself, dangerous. Why must you ask for views? Just post your views and stop there. If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. My apology nevertheless if I had stepped on your toes. Anyway let us not drag this issue any longer and get TOC into trouble.

Dear K Das,

You seem to not be able to accept the reality of Singapore’s situation in South East Asia. Whether you like it or not – you will need the Malay support. And they will only support you – if you are sensitive towards Islam.

You can shout at the PAP as much as you like. But if you cannot get Malay support – you cannot win in any GRC. Thats the political reality you face.

You think this nascent pro-Democracy movement will go far here in Singapore ?

I do not think so. I am NOT pro-PAP – but like many others – I will vote if PAP if the other alternatives are worse…..If supporting the pro-Democracy movement means that the Malays will be marginalised – then I think most Malays will continue to support the PAP – including me.

Look – don’t talk like a child – be brave enough to face political realities.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Dr Syed Alwi,

I understand that you are very passionate about Malay Muslim issues. But presenting them with the level of aggressiveness you are adopting is not passion. It is intellectual violence. It is doing violence to democracy, whose inner workings are based on respect and compromise. It is one thing to talk about democracy, but quite another when the speaker does not demonstrate that he is willing to listen to another point of view, but instead continuously pushes his agenda with ever-increasing aggression.

Thus far, TOC has shown you a lot of respect. We have published the articles you have written for us. We have not deleted your posts on this article. Andrew has even taken some time to address your concerns, as have the other posters. If they didn’t care about what you have said, they would have insulted you or ignored you instead of addressing your points.

However, you have responded with defensiveness, aggressiveness, accusations, and demands. The message you are sending is one of intolerance, inflexibility, and disrespect. You are presenting the image of a crude, boorish absolutist. Your latest admonitions to not ‘talk like a child’ is reinforcing this image. In short, everybody else here feels that you are not extended the same respect they have extended to you. I personally believe that some are so tired of this that they no longer wish to reply. It is a natural response to frustration.

I think you do have valid points to raise. That you have been published on TOC is proof of that. But if you do not present yourself as someone who is willing to respect his readers by calmly discussing issues, and instead project yourself as aggressively as possible, you are showing that you will not listen to others. This is a signal of disrespect to other people. Your intended audience will then decide that you are not worth listening to, and switch off. Consequently, you will finish up shouting in the dark, forever.

So, please tone down and consider the points raised by the other posters. Only then will we talk about what you have to say.

Excellent damage control excercise on your part Dr Syed Alwi. Having exposed the true nature of yourself to one and all, you now play your dubious pro-PAP card to salvage yourself. You think the PAP or for that matter any political party that matters, will trust you? Good try

Dear everyone,

Please refrain from making personal remarks. Also, please remember that the article is about the year of the blogger-activist – and not Malay/Muslim issues.

Syed Alwi,
You have made some disparaging remarks about fellow posters. One of your comments is disallowed, along with one by Ark. I hope you can refrain from doing so further.

[i]As for Ark – my challenge to you is to do a Google search and read my articles in Malaysian cyberspace. You have no idea who you are talking to. Go find out about my writings in Malaysiakini, Malaysia Today and elsewhere in Malaysian cyberspace.

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi[/i]

so who are you actually?
a regular visitor to the kelantan VD clinic?
sured you can write
i also can write/published articles from here through yahoo.igloo.alaska in native alaska lingo…
ps.
i am D BLOKE who shut down intel.com forum
with my kachang puteh IT skill
not a hacker or a cracker
just usin my WITS to challenge those HAVARD MIT graduates…
so
please don’t come harpin
how great you are
now do you want me to interpret in arabic as well?

هكذا الذي يكون أنت واقعيّا? زائرة نظاميّة إلى [كلنتن] [فد] مصحة? يوقن أنت يستطيع كتبت أنا أيضا يستطيع كتبت/ينشر مواد من هنا كلّيّا [يهوو.يغلوو.لسكا] في أهليّ طبيعيّ ألسكا كتيلة… [ب.س.]. أنا [د] [بلوك] الذي يعطّل intel.com ساحة مع ي [كشنغ] [بوته] هو مهارة لا مستقطعة أو جهاز تكسير فقط يستعمل ذاكراتي أن يتحدّى أنّ [هفرد] [ميت] يتخرّج… هكذا سررت لا يأتي [هربينغ] كيف عظيمة أنت تكون الآن أنت يريدني أن يفسّر في العربية أيضا? [أر فن] يهودية?

Dear K Das,

This is not about damage control. This is about political realities. What is my true nature. Have you even read my writings in Malaysian cyberspace ? Do you know what I have written there ?

Go read it first…..

[i]You think this nascent pro-Democracy movement will go far here in Singapore ?

I do not think so. I am NOT pro-PAP – but like many others – I will vote if PAP if the other alternatives are worse…..If supporting the pro-Democracy movement means that the Malays will be marginalised – then I think most Malays will continue to support the PAP – including me.

Look – don’t talk like a child – be brave enough to face political realities.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi[/i]

please share with us on this one
the same person wrote this…

On Oct 1, Dr Syed Alwi Ahmad, with a doctorate in philosophy, said it was the onus on Muslims to make Islam attractive.

“In today’s world, scepticism, secular humanism and scientific progressivism has made religion unattractive,” he added. There was no need to return to the 7th Century.

“Malaysia is not Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan under the Taliban. Elfie (who had advocated zero tolerance for apostasy) can continue to practice whatever religion he believes in.

“That’s his business. Just don’t tell me how to practice mine. Stay out of the personal, religious affairs of others. Modernity is here to stay whether or not Elfie approves of it.”

“In Singapore, people can renounce their religion as and when they like it and there is no pressure to practice one belief.

“It is wrong to force one to hold on to a religion that one doesn’t believe in and this it contradicts the claim that Islam is not about force.”

…………………………………………………………………………………………..
so in your owned views
as a malaysian
you said
do not forced others to believe
if they do not want to believe or get involved with
but here you are
doing exactly
the opposite thinggie you wrote in a malaysian blog ….
so what are you?
a twinheaded snake
or those kind
who sit where the aircon winds blows?
you tell me
p.s.
how did you get your doctorate?
can i buy 1 as well?

Dear Benjamin Seah,

Have you read my writings in Malaysian cyberspace ? Do you know that I come out in favour of the Malaysian Chinese over there ? Yet here in my own homeland ??

I do not understand you people here. I think I have been nice. There is nothing here that I have said that is so very very wrong. What do you people want ? Yes there are valid issues. Thats why we discuss them.

The most important issue here is that this blogger activism and nascent pro-Democracy movement in Singapore does NOT have any Malay participation. Why ? Ask yourself that question………………

And yes its about votes. What do you think politics is ? And the political reality is that – here in Singapore – your nascent pro-Democracy movement has no Malay support until you can attract Malays – which means you have to be sensitive to Malay issues.

Yes – I have written articles here. But why is it that there are very few articles regarding Malay Muslim issues – especially at a time when Islamic parties are marching through the streets of Malaysia and Indonesia ? Strange isn’t it ?

It seems to me – the other readers just do not want to hear of these issues. I have just gone through ALL the postings above. I do not see any posting of mine that is so terribly wrong. None at all.

What I have said is common. Nothing new. Some people do not want to hear about these issues. But they are there.

I think the lack of awareness of these issues is precisely an indicator of how little the Malay participation is in national dialogue. And one reason is this – the lack of willingness to hear of issues that are of relevance to the Malay-Muslim community.

Again – I offered a solution. Get in touch with Malaysia Today or Malaysiakini and get them to help you publish relevant articles. That way – you can get Malay interest in your TOC.

All I see – is just people who do not even want to hear about Malay-Muslim issues. I think that under the circumstances – I have been fair and polite to them.

Am I aggressive and defensive ? Sure – in view of the prevalent attitude like this.
I think thats understandable.

I make no apologies for pointing out the obvious political realities. At the end of the day – we all are subject to these political realities. What is so wrong about pointing them out ?

Think about it………….

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Dear moshedayan,

Of course I wrote that. I was writing to Malaysiakini in view of the rise of PAS and intolerance in Malaysia. When are you going to stand up for Malays here in Singapore – as I have stood up for the Chinese in Malaysia ?

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

so if you stood up for whatever race in another country
must i stood up
for saddam countrypeople as well?
who stood up for ME and my CPF?

Dear Dr Syed Alwi, It is indeed surprising that given all your learning you are so irrational and emotive. Why make religion a central plank to argue anything sensible? You say:” If Singapore attempts to dilute Islam – Malays will simply switch loyalty to Malaysia and Indonesia.” Just imagine that a war with Malaysia is imminent with an infantry battalion moved to the border and the man in charge happens to be one with your DNA. Singapore is finished! So sensitivity matters hence ultra caution is taken to make sure that the right people are chosen for sensitive posts.

Hi Zefly(aka Joshua Chiang) Post#77;

good morning and a Happy New Year to You and all.

Please allow me to say that belief is a very personal conviction and best keep in ones’ heart and not in ones’ mouth. We are all acutely aware that religions are sensitive matters because history has never fail to show that religions is divisive and have lead to much confrontations and wars. We should not deny that many of the ongoing disputes and wars are due to religions, be they within ones’ own country or between neighbours.

Frankly, I do not see any difficulty keeping ons’ belief within oneself and there should not be any difficulty to relate to one another in full goodwill without having to relate, refer and use of religion. This, I believed, is universal and eternal truth.

Dr Syed;

You insisted that TOC has no Malay/Muslim within its’ organization, I sincerely think You can help TOC to find some Malay/Muslims Members and even volunteering yourself to set an example to your community that You care and dare to dedicate yourself to seek Rights, freedom(democracy) and ideal for the good of all(every Race, Faith and creed). Your Doctorate in Philosophy will definitely put You in good stead to practice your belief in good faith to all others.

Our Good Friend Moshedyan had extracted a portion(good job! Moshedyan) of what You wrote in Malaysiakini and I find that You sounded very reasonable and acceptable to me there. Most of us had read your previous article(s) and commented quite favourably to them and You must have known the goodwills and appreciations of your contributions.

On this First Day of Year 2009, may I wish that we will have a good start to face the challenges ahead. Let us do away with antagonism, put our heads and hearts together, be kind and work towards a better tomorrow.

From: Yours Truly; patriot

Dear Patriot, Thanks for your embalming advisory. I will bury my hatchet and will not respond to Dr Syed Alwi any longer on this subject matter. Regards

Dear Patriot & Others,

Allow me to say this one last advice. Dialogue in the communal politics of South East Asia is a two-way street. It cannot be one-way only. There must be give and take. You cannot just “take” all the time. You also have to “give”. Otherwise you won’t go far………..If a liberal, progressive malay like me has to say these things – then its a very sad situation indeed…

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

After reading all the discussions, i cannot help arriving at these two conclusions:

[1] Dr Syed Alwi appears to be a person who is highly prejudiced or narrow minded.

[2] It would be difficult to maintain any rational discussions with such a person.

Religion to some people is a sensitive issue. As history can testify, religion has been a bane of humanity in terms of the significant number of lives lost through religious wars.

This quote from Steven Weinberg [a physicist] says something about religion:
“With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

I would like to express my disagreement with K Das’ opinion that Islam is a peaceful and beautiful religion. I get the impression that K Das must have read the Koran.

No religion, be it monotheistic or polytheistic, can lay claim to being a peaceful religion if it prescribes punishment for unbelievers, or believers of other faiths.

If I say God [Allah] is portrayed in the Bible as a genocidal maniac, would that be construed as blasphemy? Or should it be construed as mere textual evidence?

How would Muslims/Christians/Jews view my other descriptions of Allah or God, if I were to write about religion in terms of my perceptions, as an atheist?

[i]Our Good Friend Moshedyan had extracted a portion(good job! Moshedyan) of what You wrote in Malaysiakini[/i]
well that is where my skills comes in
whether its IT related or rebuttals
now you all know why intel.com forum have to shut down
they the MIT gurus just goes by D book
not their brainwave….
thank you
all
may we all have a notsogreat 2009 ahead
grabbed/saved whatever pennies that dropped from the sky
even today
i am on call
will be going out shortly to do a simple adhoc job…

96) patriot on January 1st, 2009 9.17 am

“We are all acutely aware that religions are sensitive matters because history has never fail to show that religions is divisive and have lead to much confrontations and wars. ”

No doubt about that. What I was saying is, a certain flexibility has to be allowed. Insomuch as discourses should be on the merits of logical arguments, we have to agree that a person has more than his rational side. Most people believe they have a ’spiritual’ side as well. Consider one of the common angry comments we find here “God will punish so-and-so for his sins etc’ Would you think that is a ‘religious’ statetment? Or if I were to make a call for compromise. I might have quoted Jesus’s words about turning the other cheek, not because I am Christian, but because it is a very commonly understood term.

Yes, I do agree we need to draw a line. No one should be allowed to evangelize or engage in ‘my god is better than your god’ debate here. (I wrote that in my earlier post dunno if you saw that). No one should act in a way like he has the monopoly of absolute truth.

But say, if it’s hari raya, and someone posts a hari raya greeting quoting the Koran … what’s wrong with that? It is, after all, a very important day for muslims, and not just a secular holiday. Why should we muzzle someone sharing his wishes and joy in the way he feels most comfortable with, just because we don’t believe in his god? Religions are divisive only when we allow it to be. Only when we react too sensitively to stuff like these.

Religious tolerance, in my opinion, is not just tolerance between people of faiths, but also between people of faiths and people without religions. Insomuch as I feel strongly against shoving down one’s faiths upon people’s throats, tolerance also should extend to ‘aetheists’ and agnostics’ allowing people with religion to make the occasional reference to stories or characters in their faith. Otherwise it will become a tyranny of aetheism.

It is only partially true that I am speaking up for my occasional tendencies to quote various examples from the various religious scriptures. (i read alot of these kind of stuff) But I had been an aethist too, and for a long time, i was also piqued whenever people use references like this in a normal conversation. That is until I realized the intolerant one was actually me. You can’t stop a devout christian for eg, for giving thanks even outside the church.

I believe ultimately we are still seeking the same thing – freedom of expression done in a responsible way. We just differ on its boundaries.

cheers. :)

WKC

“I would like to express my disagreement with K Das’ opinion that Islam is a peaceful and beautiful religion. I get the impression that K Das must have read the Koran.

No religion, be it monotheistic or polytheistic, can lay claim to being a peaceful religion if it prescribes punishment for unbelievers, or believers of other faiths.

If I say God [Allah] is portrayed in the Bible as a genocidal maniac, would that be construed as blasphemy? Or should it be construed as mere textual evidence?

How would Muslims/Christians/Jews view my other descriptions of Allah or God, if I were to write about religion in terms of my perceptions, as an atheist?”

Tough question. Quite honestly, everyone will react differently. You can expect a certain level of very strong disagreements from some people. In my case, as long as you don’t rub it in my face too much, I’ll just take it as another perception that is probably good to mull over for a while instead of getting worked up.

But what you had written is, what i would consider, as something that is best left for other blogs and websites and not TOC.

Lastly, I know this is tough, but I hope some of you, who are wont to be worked up by WKC’s comments, to exercise some restraint. Not that I agree with his views, quite the opposite, but if you reply, it will ultimately be an exercise in futility, and we don’t wanna spoil anyone’s new year.

Hi Patriot # 74,

No big deal lah. Everyone has a style of writing. You have one, Andrew and Choo has it too.

Even the [capital letters] dark one has one. I dont know anyone else in the whole of blogosphere who can get away with 3 pages.

You should go down to the singaporedaily and check it out, I think he’s back.

Btw what has this thread got to do with faith? Dang la.

Dear WKC,

Please read my writings on apostasy in Malaysia. I have come up in support of the freedom of religion. I think that I have been very supportive of the aspirations of the Malaysian Chinese. I am very sad. however, that the Singaporean Chinese are not willing to hear out Malay Muslim issues. Apparently some of you want a one way street.

Anyone who has read my writings in Malaysian cyberspace – knows that I am a liberal, progressive and a toelrant plus moderate Muslim. No one doubts that. You can read my writings and come to your own conclusions – as others have.

If you want Malays to be supportive of your aspirations – the you must also be supportive of theirs.

There must be give and take.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Kudos to Andrew Loh for having to endure with different sorts of comment posters who appear very seasoned forummers but very over-confident in a way.
Tough job that takes up a lot of time & effort . Moderation of comments is good and necessary. some forums got destroyed literally by a group of dedicated ‘destroyers’. they just keep hijacking a forum and eventually many got turned off and the forum site was effectively ‘destroyed’.

hallo, none of my bisness, but Syed. I think most of the people who can talk to you are not around lah. I hope the really intelligent and tokong ppl have not left Toc for good. I hope they are still around somewhere Andrew & Choo.

Syed this one not to angkat you, but your subject so cheem. I dun even know why you bring it up here. I came here to talk about sg blogoland, instead we are talking about this. How far you think you can go with some of this people? No insult to them. Me included as well. I know nothing abt this. So very easy lor shut up lor.

Syed you talking over all our heads. we all dont understand, not you, but what you want to saying. I see only a few fellow here who tokong enuff to talk abt this without getting into hot soup. Balji, he know, as he used to be editor, so he know how to buang this and that and still balance, like ridding bicycle. Another one is tanlk, he used to running ntuc, so he very good with people complain to him. then sd, he was once parachuted to pally with gulf gamers and grow that market, so he must be good, as cheena to learn to speak their lingo not easy I think. Leong aso can as he is good to argue with facts. Then maybe other people like gemani, he work, I think in customer complrain. then who else? No more.

So why u even bring this subject up here syed? Aso I dun know. Who else some more?

Dear WKC, Just one correction. I did not say that Islam is a peaceful religion (not that it is not to the adherents though). What I said was that Islam is a beautiful and practical religion. Though I read quite a bit on all religions, my appreciation for Islam is based less on texts but more on what I see and perceive. The finer aspects (in my view) of the religion pertaining to communion with Allah (daily prayers on multiple times), giving part of income/savings to the poor/charity ( fitrah and zakat), respect for elders (it is a sight to behold to see tiny tots and full grown up adults paying obeisance to elders by holding and kissing their hands), personal cleanliness, and polygamy (yes polygamy!) are all attributes that facinate and attract me. Hopefully there will come another platform and opportunity for me to elaborate more on these views of mine. Regards.

Dear K Das;

Your positive response gives me a very happy start to Year 2009, thank You so much.

It is so kind of You to bury the hatchet.

It’s New Year’s Day today, let us have a new start and I wish Every One Well.

Yours Truly: patriot

Thank you Benjamin for this article, it will keep us all hopeful and motivated.

I made a New Years’ blog post referring to it, just letting you know: http://singaporeindianvoice.blogspot.com/2009/01/its-2009-now.html

Dr Syed Alwi,

I have shown you what I felt was wrong about your previous posts: your tone and how you ignored everybody else and instead pushed your own agenda. Instead of addressing my points, you chose to disregard me by saying that you see nothing wrong, before pontificating on subjects totally irrelevant to this article, and out of the scope of nearly everybody on TOC, writers and posters included.

Nobody here cares about what you have done. Nobody here cares about what you represent. Nobody here cares about who you are. Nobody here cares who is backing you. They only care that you are ignoring them and venting about some rather sensitive topics which not everybody can appreciate. That is my message. I urge you to pay attention to what we are saying to you, because people will only listen to you if you show that you are listening to them. I strongly suggest that you make amends by acknowledging the points everybody has raised and addressing them accordingly.

If you fail to do so, then I see no reason to continue conversing with you. For that matter, I also see no reason why everybody else should bother with what you write here, now and forever.

The choice is yours. Choose wisely.

Dear Seelan Palay,

Thanks for letting me know, and for the compliment.

K Das,

My apologies. Tks for pointing out. You are absolutely right.

rgds

Dear Benjamin,

Thats where you are wrong. You use phrases like “nobody here”. But what you fail to realise is that your readership is not homogeneous. Neither do they all simply agree with you. There are Malays out there for whom the issues I raised is fair and valid.

Nobody cares ? Malays care ! I have repeated myself over and over again. What I said was just simply this :

That TOC should publish more articles of interest to the ethnic minorities in order to get their meaningful participation. But obviously you are not interested.

What you and some of your friends here are saying is this – don’t talk about Malay-Muslim issues because we are not interested. Don’t talk about Islam because TOC must be religion free. Thats what you and your friends are saying to me.

Well say what you like. I have lived long enough to know that no one is beyond political realities. Maybe today – you and your friends might not care. But of tomorrow – I assure you – you will be humbled to know that you have to care…Sadly it won’t happen until the reality dawns upon you. Hopefully it will not be too late then………

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

Where are the rest? Maybe can talk with them. This one to cheem for me, ciah chen. bye bye. so long. selamat tingal

Editor TOC

I find the good Dr’s last paragraph highly threatening, as though he is privy to some dark clouds gathering. I pray that he does not teach in any of our institutes of higher learning. I suggest you take him off from this post henceforth.
K Das

Dr. Syed Alwi,

Yours words have proven my point. You have twisted my words to suit your agenda, and you have ignored my point that your aggressiveness and inflexibility is turning everybody off. You have further demonstrated that you are more concerned with haranguing everybody about the Malay Muslim community, an issue that has no connection with this article and an issue that almost nobody here is willing to discuss owing to lack of expertise, interest, and other such factors.

We have been very reasonable with you. But you have chosen to lash out at us every time we try to explain to you that this is not the time and place to discuss such matters, and you are showing us that you are not willing to listen to any of us anyway.

My patience is at its end. Henceforth, I will stop conversing with you. I also encourage all readers to ignore you from now on. There is no point adding fuel to a wildfire. Goodnight.

Syed Alwi,

There are so many people trying to reason with you in a nice manner and you are so aggressive….chill man….Who was it that started the hug campaign??? well,nvm, i will still give u a hug Syed Alwi to calm you down. now that the people have start to call for ignoring you, maybe you can do your part and rein in your temper. gosh, your post is just so aggressive and it is like hinting that…if you don’t do this, bad things will happen. that’s definitely not the way to grab positive attention

Mr Syed Alwi

Maybe you are right. But maybe so are they. The problem is most of the clever people who are best able to appreciate your rightness and discuss it rationally for some strange reason are no longer here or have decided not to post or whatever reasons. To me they just took off like a travelling circus. I dont even know why. Can anyone tell me? As I have been travelling lately. So even if you insist you are right, the current people engaging you may not be able to see your pov even if they wish too. That I fear may mean it may not be very productive for you or them either. Good night.

Dear Dr Chia Tin Lek,

Thanks for your advice. I am in agreement with what you say. 100% agree with you.

Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

SZ, I started the hugs campaign. You can also read my post #76. I think everyone should take a chill pill. Dr Ayed Aiwi’s posts may be quite off topic by now, and his tone somewhat aggressive, but he isn’t entirely wrong. I looked back at Andrew’s comments on #3, and though I believe he didn’t intend it that way, it could also be misread as ‘condescending’. We all should always be mindful that online communication is not like face-to-face communication where you can get a better idea of the other party’s intent by tone of voice and facial expression.

Dr Aiwi’s points aren’t entirely new either. Back in university I had a Malay schoolmate, very smart, very well-informed, who also raised the issue of what he perceived as marginalization of Malay/Muslims in Singapore, or a really honest discussion of the Malay/Muslim issues in public. Whenever I could, I also spoke to my Malay friends to see if they felt the same way. Some do, some don’t. I don’t have enough statistics to verify. But the fact is, yes, we do have a segment of the Malay population who feel the same. The recent National Day article in ST by the Malay journalist proves as much. However, too bad they didn’t have a really honest discussion, and just put an alternate opinion by another Malay and left it at that.

However, for all your frustration, Dr Aiwi has to understand that many of the readers are possibly not Malays. Even if we do try to empathize, there is no way we can 100% identify with your genuinely felt agitation. This isn’t racism; it is a fact of life. I cannot make any claims, but I do believe that it must have been quite a challenge being in a Malay ‘peninsula’ and yet a minority, while at the same time having a faith that is largely misunderstood, or not understood in the historical context, by much of the world.. being seen as the Other. (just falling back on my shallow understanding of Edward Said) Correct me if I’m wrong. I have Chinese relatives living in Malaysia, and I can see their frustration living under bumiputra.

But you would also likely agree with me that it is a very very difficult topic to deal with. A discussion on race-religion issues require extraordinary patience and restraint, and a willingness to face the truth no matter how ugly. How many people are ready for that? Though I would also agree with you, that just because it is difficult doesn’t mean we should shun in. Shunning it in the past was what caused such touchiness in the first place (though you can’t really blame the PAPpies in lieu of what Lee’s generation went through)

I honestly do not think the TOC writers and editors intend NOT to talk about it at all. Like you said, and I do agree with you to a certain extent – the issue is there if we bother to look. I guess due to the recession and the perceived failure of the gahmen to deal with it properly, maybe that’s why such ‘policy-topics’ take precedence. Maybe in their haste to reply they didn’t take the sensitivity of the issue into account, and hence sounded dismissive to you.

I’ll share with you something that happened when I was in NS. Back then I found it fun to be slapping everyone’s head when they wore helmets. Then one day the inevitable happened – i whacked a Brunei-ian buddy on his head. And nearly got whacked in return. Only when I understood what getting slapped on the head meant for a Muslim did I understand his reaction.

As for the comments by the other readers, quite likely their response is not a result of your content, but your tone of voice. It doesn’t matter if you’re right or wrong. A person who is perceived as acting in an overtly aggressive way always gets the brickbats.

I dunno what is the Arabic word, (correct me if I’m wrong) I think it’s “ghufran” – forgiveness. Maybe we can all exercise a bit of ghufran here. Also, I believe, as TOC matures and grows in active members such that they have a similar Malay/Muslim of your intellectual calibre, there will be more space devoted to discussing the issues facing Malay/Muslims.

Ok? Is everyone fine with this? Can? Ready to hug?

To Dr Syed Alwi,

I appreciate some of your comments on this site and I do agree that there are certain specific problems within the various cultural communities in Singapore that are very difficult for others outside those communities to understand.

Instead of asking TOC to include more articles that highlight the issues that you concerned about, you could start your own blog and take the first step in sharing your insight.

And after you start, TOC might link and feature some of your posts now and then. Do not seek their patronage. Do what you know best, and do it alone.

Zelfy

A beautiful piece you have penned.

Subjects can be controversial or contentious but you can hold your ground and put across your hear felt views strongly and tactfully. I know it is difficult for the strong headed. But we must all try.

It is a tutorial for me too. Thanks a lot.

K Das

I am so sorry, It should be to Zefly

To Joshua,

“Tough question. Quite honestly, everyone will react differently. You can expect a certain level of very strong disagreements from some people. In my case, as long as you don’t rub it in my face too much, I’ll just take it as another perception that is probably good to mull over for a while instead of getting worked up.

But what you had written is, what i would consider, as something that is best left for other blogs and websites and not TOC.

Lastly, I know this is tough, but I hope some of you, who are wont to be worked up by WKC’s comments, to exercise some restraint. Not that I agree with his views, quite the opposite, but if you reply, it will ultimately be an exercise in futility, and we don’t wanna spoil anyone’s new year.”

Precisely, Joshua.

As I have stated, religion is a sensitive issue to some [or many?[ people.
People discussing religion must be aware there are lots of people out there who may have different beliefs, religious or non-religious. My post was, inter alia, a precautionary notice to anyone who are inclined to think religious or race issues should be discussed in open forums like this. When anyone expouses his/her religious views/beliefs he/she can expect rejoinders from others, including of course atheists/agnostics.

Your post in response to mine is a clear example.

WKC

I think perhaps, because the word ‘religion’ has so many connative meanings for everyone – some see it as the cause of millions of conflicts and sufferings around the world, some see it as having ’saved’ their lives and given it meaning, most people would rather not talk about anything related to it at all.

However, there is a distinction about discussion of the validity of one’s religion, which, in my experience, leads nowhere, unless one is open enough, and discussion of how religion affects the socio-economic fabric of a segment of people for example.

You cannot have a satisfactory or in-depth discussion of the Malay/Muslim community without an understanding of how Islam affects their lives. Or how Islam is not only a way to conduct one’s personal life, but also has a economic-political element to it, maybe (based on what scant readings I make) more so than other faiths.

Or, for example, (I’m just posing a hypothesis) the role that Chinese folk religion (ancestral worship, belief in many deities, ‘taoism’ etc) plays in affecting the psyche of the average non-Christian, non-buddhist Chinese.. and if there is a correlation between this sort of belief and their socio-economic status?

Anyway.. at the end of the day, I always feel it’s not the topic, but rather people’s willingness to engage in discussions in a respectful tone. But this is just my opinion, and it’s open to be convinced of otherwise. i mean, no loss to me even if someone else manage to persuade me to change my mind. And here’s where I believe is what causes so many such unnecessary conflicts. We always feel as if we got something to loss if we concede to a stronger, better-argued point of view (when in fact the only thing we lose is our artificial mental boundaries) And that is where all the emotional stuff start coming in. And we all huff and puff and blew the house down.

K Das,

you’re welcome. I was just putting the overnight test to work. (see post 76)

WKC,

additional notes- I agree with you that it is difficult to discuss in an open forum. What is needed perhaps, is some ground rules, and someone experienced and ‘non-partisan’ to act as moderator. And maybe, just for the specific topic, a longer time-lag between someone submitting a comment and having it available for all to see. Yes, though not an advocate of censorship, in some cases it is necessary.

Dear Friends;

please bear with me here.

Kindly permit me to pen one last Statement Of Fact here and that is, Race(ethnicity) is predestined(natural) whereas Belief is an acquired(learnt) entity.
Although some religions are intricately linked to ethnicities, history does show us that Belief are changeable. Examples; the Chinese were(are) Ancestor Worshippers, when Buddhism(from India) was introduced, a large proportion of Chinese then became Buddhists and some embraced Christianity and Islam when these religions were introduced into China.

The Religious History of Indonesia is quite similar, originally Animistic, large section of Indonesia became Buddhist during the Majapahit Period when Indian Cultures were widely adopted. The Europeans came later and converted many to Christians. Later when the Middle-easterners came, majority of the Indonesians were converted to Muslims.

Throughout the changes of Faith, Race remains constant as it is non-changeable.

Due to the above, I opine that Ethnicity(Race) is of a totally different substance to that of religion. Lumping them together as one entity for open discussions will always result in very unpleasant developments as evidenced in the whole of Human History.
It is very unfortunate that Nature has created different ethnicities that divide/confuse the Human Race and the Races(ethnic) created religions to further complicate matters.
If only Humans can keep matters of the Heart WITHIN THEIR OWN HEARTS WITHOUT THE AMBITIONS OF INFLUENCING OTHERS, the WORLD WOULD BE BETTER AND NICER TO ALL.

I Maybe guilty of ignorance and being simplistic and I will also say that I lack the mental stamina to go beyond here.

Pardon me one last time.

patriot

And Dr Syed, here is something I came across in the SDP manifesto:

Respect, not manipulate, the ethnic minority

A concerted effort must be made to address the concerns of the ethnic minorities in Singapore, especially the Malays. Merely identifying high profile individuals within the Malay community and bringing them into the fold of the PAP is insufficient. If the ideal of multiracialism is to be realised, the PAP cannot galvanise anti-Malay feelings among the majority ethnic Chinese by raising the spectacle of communal politics every time the Malays call for an alternative form of leadership within their community. Such a tactic will only engender greater resentment and polarisation among the ethnic groups, and eventually back-fire on society.

Joshua [#125 & #127]

Tks for the feedback.

I am currently a member of of an Internet forum that is dedicated principally to discussions about God/god/religion – basically a Theism v Atheism website. Ad hominem is not encouraged and so is foul language. Aside from such proscriptions, anyone can say anything they want. This is the kind of forum that people should join if they are interested in discussing/debating questions about God/god and all related issues. One can criticize and may of course be criticized in return. Should anyone resort to language that is deemed unsuitable by the Adminsitrator[s] of the site, their message would be deleted.

I agree with you that some sort of censorship may be necessary.

BTW, I have a zest to argue on questions about God/religious issues, but on the side of atheism.

As much as I am tempted to reply to you about Atheism,
I shall not.
All it takes for people to continue talking about religion here is
for 1 reply about religion.
This can be a vicious cycle.
Yes, I agree that religion discussions should be conducted in specialised forums, not here.

WKC,

sounds interesting. I’ll pop by for a look. :)

Patriot,

I half-agree with you. But let me say the parts i disagree first. I disagree that race is a bigger determining factor in a community’s psyche than religion. You mentioned Malays. But did you know that the Fillipinos are also of Malay stock? But you would find they have less much less in common with Singapore Malays than with Indonesian or Malaysian Malays. The question I pose to you is – why? If ethnicity takes precedence over religion, then does the loyalties of JI lie with Islam, or with the Malays (from Indonesia, Malaysia etc) which make up a huge portion of it? Does a Christian Indian have more in common with a HIndu Indian than say, a Christian Eurasian?

But I would agree with you that perhaps not all are ready to deal with discussion of this sort in a open forum. I have explained, and reinterated – if religion is to be mentioned in any discussion, it should be used either as

a) a reference. Or as a quote to back up a point. Whether you believe in them or not, Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, etc, always have something spot-on to say about human nature, and also about the potential of humans to do good. To steer clear of even any mention of them in the name of being religious-free is depriving ourselves from some of the most beautiful words ever uttered. Also, when you discuss policies pertaining to abortion, euthanasia, use of contraception etc… how do you hope to have a discussion even, when for some people it is predominantly a religious issue?

b) how it affects a community. How can you even hope to understand how another community thinks without delving into the thing that is closest to them? And maybe, maybe, it’s because of all these hush-hush that so much misconceptions of the religions of the others exist. How many of us know enough about the other religions to understand that what might be immoral and barbaric now made perfect sense in the community back in the days the religion was being established? How much of all these misconceptions is borne out of wilful ignorance and fear of knowledge, disguised as ‘preserving the status-quo’?

But I concede that you could be right. Even after I explained myself three times, I suspect many readers still think a topic on religion will be about ‘my god vs your god vs no god’, and nothing else. I’m interested in finding out about other people’s religion so I can understand them better. Not in a competition between Shiva and Moses.

Oh well. Calling it a day.

Shalom. God bless. Salaam. Ommm. Boyanbolomi (am I missing out some other words of well-wishing?)

To correct a point – when i wrote about JI “then does the loyalties of JI lie with Islam”.. I do not mean the Islam as practiced by many, but a perverted ideology pretending to be Islam. Apologies if anyone were offended on first reading.

The smartest and most disturbing comment I believe came from post 118 by a certain Dr Chia. He pretty much sums up my thoughts. Btw I also would like to know what happened to all the intelligent people who used to be here.

They seemed to have just evaporated or moved on somewhere else. Has anything else been happening somewhere else in the net? I also think we cannot make much head way without the intelligent people, so what is the point of all this?

just my 2 cents, if anyone cares to know.

Otterman,

I flunked my Mensa test. You won’t believe how bad. Apparently I am slightly better than a dimwit.

But I was thinking… how intelligent is an intelligent person if he can’t explain a concept in such a way that even a five year old can understand? I think Einstein said something to that effect.

Also, the PAP is filled with intelligent people. No, seriously. But that didn’t stop them from screwing up in the eyes of many.

There is also a difference between intelligence and wisdom. The really wise one respects everybody if those who disagree with him, and will not imply everyone here is stupid simply because they can’t see his point. It doesn’t need to take a smart person to know that.

Oh, but what do I know? I flunked my Mensa.

“The really wise one respects everybody if those who disagree with him” Wow! You know what. I agree with you. Perhaps If you r so smart then maybe u can also tell of us why recently all the smart and intelligent comments. I used to enjoy have all gone silent? Or maybe you prefer not to see the deficit or even ask yourself why. Maybe if you did you may see the flaws in what I just copied and paste here.

You talk about respect as if its given, well I have news for you, its earned with blood and sweat. Win people over with persuasion of your argument even if you defeat them fair and square, they will still hate you but at least they respect you, but instead what happened here, they cut and cut and cut and at the end of the day you cap it off with some nonsense about respecting people etc etc etc you reap what you sow.

[...] 2008 Roundup, 2009 Countdown – TOC: 2008: The year of the blogger-activist [...]

Sumiko,

I don’t understand your point. You do notice that I am among the stupid ones here which otterman have lamented about… since, according to him and you, the smart ones have really gone away. So I while I appreciate the compliment that you think I’m so smart whereas I truly believe I am of average to below average intelligence, I have to say I don’t deserve it.

You talk about respect being earned with blood and sweat, as if you and you alone hold the absolute knowledge in your hands. Well, maybe it’s just my average middle class upbringing, but I was raised to believe that everyone has a point, and if you don’t even respect his point, because he obviously must be convinced of the validity of it if not he won’t be saying it out in the first place, you can’t persuade him no matter how valid your argument. The whole episode between Dr Syed and the rest of the people here is enough proof of that. Everyone has a truly valid point that requires deeper thought, but it seems that we all prefer to preach than to learn. And yes, my own fingers are pointing back at me as well.

I always believe that one’s intelligence is a gift to be used in the service of others.If you can’t even give respect to those whose intellect are perceived to be lower than yours, and you smugly post a comment making sweeping remarks about the dirth of intelligence here, than what use is your intellect? But then again, there are people who give respect to all people first, and there are those who believe they shouldn’t respect people until the persons have proven to be deemed worthy of their respect.

You may be very smart, perhaps… but it seems not smart enough to put your points across in a cool rational way. You seek to win people and defeat arguments with your rapier-intelligence; I simply prefer to find a common ground between divergent views so we all can move ahead.

So I can’t answer your question why the smart people have all gone away. But maybe instead of going away to some online ivory tower, you guys should just stay back and help contribute to a livelier debate here, even if the stupid remarks here drive you nuts. Seriously folks. In times like these we need all the smart people we can find. But the smart people have to understand that in for anything to move forward they have to work with the stupid people, and not make the stupid people feel worse about themselves by calling them stupid, and staying away. Afterall, the world will always have more stupid people than smart people. So contribute to raise the standard of intelligence here if you feel it has gone down. We all look forward to it.

Ok? Deal? :)

Hugs.

oi? What happened to sumiko’s entry? Die. I have a feeling my entry will be removed as well. Can please put her entry back? It’s ok if it’s out of point. Dun worry my feelings are not hurt.

hahaha, good on you gal! Zefly, You should not have replied so fast, that way maybe she wouldnt have been so convincing with what she said here hahaha

res ipsa loquitor.

haha,

I won’t be too happy if i were you though. If what Sumiko said was true, that all comments here are not intelligent, that sorta includes your entry too… :P

And next time, just say “the thing speaks for itself”. Not everyone understands Latin.

Dr Alwi is not asking that we tackle issues with the intention of taking the govt on.

I believe he is asking for the discussion of Muslim or Islamic issues so that the wider audience, that is Singapore of other races, come to understand why Muslims have to sometimes take a different stand to those subscribed by the mainstream. This is a good proposition insofar as it remains within the realm of civilised discussions without it degenerating into what the ob markers were placed there in the first place.

Looking at the comments posted here, the danger that such discussions might get out of control will most likely surface and is quite a forgone certainty. It is sad that such a good initiative can be misconstrued by our mischievous mindsets that tell us stories of doom once we open the legendary can of worms.

I think Singaporeans have to have the courage to take on issues that the govt has been telling us not to touch on. When can we grow to maturity if we are not brave enough to face these thorny issues head on? Here we have a Dr Alwi, a Muslim, and most likely, one who is well versed in the teachings of Islam, offering us his wealth of knowledge, to help us understand our Muslim brothers and fellow Singaporeans better; and what do we do? We run away as fast as we can, afraid that we are inviting trouble, afraid that TOC may be closed down and we will all be left high and dry after indulging ourselves in its sweetness.

We start making excuses that like why stop at Islamic issues? Why not gay issues? Why not women’s issues? Why not Chinese issues? Why not Indian issues? Why indeed? Why are we asking these questions in the first place?

Don’t you see how suppressed we have become when we ask these sort of questions? Do we need to take up arms and go to war by asking and discussing such issues? Because of one bad experience, we prevent, by all means, not to touch the same issue again? Is not history supposed to help us along for us to draw on its lesson so that we do not make the same mistakes that resulted in trouble? Or is history used to make us a repressive type of people who becomes cowardly and one with loads of excuses to run away from thorny issues?

I agree most with AhKao #7) that tacking such issues will be reason enough for the PAP govt to close down the blogsite but then again, how many blogsites does it need to close down before the people really get fed up with such bullying tactics? Do we sit by the side and wonder without ever knowing the answer?

My humble advise is for TOC to introduce ratings. Set up a corner for the discussion of such issues with a cautionary note to visitors, readers and comments to adhere to a code of conduct. Work on it. It can be done. And, don’t stop with Muslim issues.

Let us show the PAP govt that its hard work to create a more gracious and open society is bearing fruits. We can be the testament to such a success. There is no reason for the PAP govt to close anyone down.

Throw away your fears my friends.

I support Dr Syed Alwi views. TOC is a bit narrow in its representations as a blog for all S’poreans knowing full bloody well that 15-18% of the critical votes comes from Malay/Muslim brethens and sisters. Are there fears to touch on the subject? Are there a resignation of inadequate support and info on this subject? Can Dr Syed Alwi be drafted, hauled and invited on board? TOC, what say you people? Plse speak. Do some soul searching before rigidly defending with a brave front with mama reasons and brushing off suggestions.

To gemami [#142] and Oscar [#143]

Just a simple question: Are you saying that TOC should allow religious and ethnic issues to be discussed freely on this board?

“Are you saying that TOC should allow religious and ethnic issues to be discussed freely on this board?”

It just take one clown with his harmful and sensitive remarks (possibly anonymous from the establishment) to deliberately close down the whole TOC site. Do you really want to see head chop like those in Iraq ?

Let me recount a incident I see while travelling to Arab country. I remember someone reporting a headless AngMoh along the riverside which I was told that he was murdered as the result of insulting and blaspheming the ISLAM religion even though he may be right ! So if someone who do not really understand the religion and just wanna talk some nonsense, please submit your name and IC as well along with your comment, I won’t be surprised you will be living in fear in Singapore.

Having a debate on racist and religion are no problem until most of the comments are just ignorant and disrespectful of religion. Prevention is better than cure.
If someone want to talk about religion, setup his own blog and let the debate start from there, at least if thing run astray, can just shut down his blog and move on.

As I had stated in my posting. A matured and professional blog should cover not only common grounds and interests but also some areas particular to the thinkings to some ethic grps. This does not mean (narrow)religious matters. How about habits, customs(adats) and particular practices that can be raised to solve some of our present problems. That is why I urge TOC to invite Dr Syed Alwi to be one of the ocassional writer, vide articles and lent both pairs of his ears and eyes on Malay/Muslim matters which otherwise TOC will be hampered. We need wide angles to have better and deeper insights on things and subjects which some TOC wannabies, bongo, hanjo pucho, half-baked and half-past-six people are incapable of.

#144) WKC:
Just a simple question: Are you saying that TOC should allow religious and ethnic issues to be discussed freely on this board?

Allow me to make it very simple. First of all, TOC holds the discretion whether to allow discussions of such topics or not. What I am suggesting is that we do not shun away from thorny issues just because we have been made to believe that tackling such issues will lead to racial and religious riots.

There are many ways to go about doing this in a civilised and ‘controlled’ manner. By ‘control’, I mean, for each individual to take accountability and responsibility for the comments he/she posts.

How do we do this? I offer two areas of control. More can be introduced as and when it is deemed necessary.
a. Have a separate corner for racial (ethnic) and religious discussions.
b. Contributors to provide personal particulars so as to prevent mischief by those who may drop in with callous remarks and hiding behind the wall of anonymity.

Should discussions get out of control; close it down. At least we know we have tried and it did not work. So there is nothing to lose, and there is nothing to worry over sabotage.

Daniel: ….. at least if thing run astray, can just shut down his blog and move on.

If the govt wants to find fault with you, there is no way and no where you can hide even if you have a nice little halo over your head with white fluttering wings on your back. Taking you to task over religious, racial or even plain char kuey teow issues does not matter as long as they make out a reason for coming after you.

#146 & #147 [Oscar Choy and gemami]

Tks for clarifying.

I look forward to your contributions [articles/comments] on ethnic and/or religious issues, on assumption, as gemami suggested, TOC would establish a separate corner for such issues.

My hope is that people who are interested in such issues are able to discuss them rationally/philosophically, or with an open mind.

I feel that under ‘ethnic’ issues, we can divide into two broad catergories (though hard to really draw the line at times)

Intra-ethnic isses , and INTER-ethnic issues.

Intra-ethnic issues pertain to issues of religion for eg… syriah laws.. such things should be discussed within the ethnic community itself, and though i would be curious to sit in and watch, just for knowledge’s sake, i wouldn’t find it right to comment at all, and I would recommend that intra-ethnic issues be the strict dormain of the ethnicity involved.

Inter-ethnic issues are issues that concern society as a whole, for eg, if there is any ‘glass ceiling’ in certain sectors of the civil service, and reasonably if there are real concerns why such ceilings exist. Or something as mundane as, are there enough considerations for people of other faiths when designing towns and facilities? I find it strange for eg, why the issue of asking for Tamil signs in MRT and Bus stations was treated like a hot potato.

But yeah, of course there still need to be prudence when discussing such issues.

Many thanks to WKC and Joshua for agreeing that there is room enough for TOC to carry religious and ethnic topics for discussions.

I would like to reiterate that we must not shun away from such discussions if we expect to grow in maturity as a social, political and civil people .

Many have argued that because we are positioned amongst neighbours of various religious and ethnic compositions, we must stay away from touchy issues that might do harm to the harmony of co-existence. I beg to differ. I feel we must take the initiative to learn about each other and to know what are the reasons behind their beliefs, their culture and the taboos, their race, their history, their practices, everything that we are so ignorant about.

Can we claim to be living in harmony when we do not even know why the Muslims behave in ways very much dictated Islam & what actually is Islam, or, why the Chinese have their own perculiar practices, or, why the Indians do not seem to be a cohesive race; or; why the Eurasians do not feel they have a place in the country?

We have been co-existing without bothering to find the answers to these questions. It is time we take steps to, not only co-exist, but to really live in harmony, fully aware of each other’s race, religion and culture.

The problem is, who is dare enough to discuss such issues? I vouch, while speaking up for Dr Syed Alwi, that the Muslims are crying out to be understood. Many of us believe we understand where the Muslims are coming from but this is very far from the truth.

Let me relate a personal experience.

Last year, I wrote an article that I place in the department’s bulletin board. The article was about Ramadan and in it I detailed the observances and practices throughout the period of fasting leading to Hari Raya Puasa, the celebration.

The Chinese and Indians in the department were so taken in by the article that they begin to relate to the Muslims better because they now understood what the Muslims were doing and more importantly, why they were doing them.

Likewise, I did a write up for the same bulletin board, on the observances and practices of the Chinese in preparation for the Lunar New Year celebration. The same sentiments were expressed to me by the other ethnic groups and all were very appreciative of the effort to create harmony and understanding among the races.

Based on these experiences, I dare say, there is scope and space enough for such discussions. The trick is for contributers to be sensitive and to thread with care and caution.

No harm trying. Like I said before, close the thread down if it gets out of control. This is one good thing about blogs. The host can control what it wants to carry.

[...] the close of the year 2008, one of The Online Citizen’s (TOC) writers, Benjamin Seah said that 2008 was the year of the blogger-activist. If 2008, was the year of the blogger-activist, 2009 was surely the year of the [...]