Why still expensive?
Oil price latest news US$43 down…..
What did the government do?

This will be the only way to know for sure how fair is the pricing.
Similarly , this can apply to Flat costing, and all price hikes now and in the future.

And lets understand that Transparency is not just about annual reports which give only summaries.

Very simple answer. The decision makers are not nimble enough to lower the prices BUT they are deemed super efficient when up the prices!! This is profit making. The reason for these Companies reporting year end profits for the owners and towkays. Where is the social order? My foot tell me there is no such thing.

when price of oil dips, bus fare, and MRT fare still remain the same, utility will go down next Jan but transport fares how ? someone , Mr Leong or Mr Tan or opposition please question the govt !! We should vote in Mr Leong, Mr Tan to question the govt if other oppositions can’t do that

When excuse aerlier given, fuel is rising transport to tariff price need to be up but why isn’t transport and tariff not going down when the fuel is going down? Singaporean should stopped accepting the said excuses by service providers. The amount have to be adjusted. If people are accepting job lay-off, so should price falls be accepted by service providers. Who is responsible to make the changes the people or the government? If the people were force to do so its a kiosk but when the government takes the initiative its proactive.

crude oil dropped to 4-year low. why are we still paying sky-high tarriffs?

they used rising price of oil to exact more payment out of us. so why aren’t our bills coming down when the price tumbled?

btw, st recently published an article to say that the price will come down 25% from the preceding period. pls, we are NOT idiots. The preceding period was the highest ever – not forgetting that it was during the same period that the price dropped precipitously. 25% drop from the peak, when crude oil dropped by more than 60%, does seem a fair deal to consumers.

I think it would be interesting to find out
how many people understands that it does not make sense when
oil price , that fluctuates, is used as reason for price hike
when price hiked does not go down, even when oil price does go down and have gone down extremely.

Out of 100 000 people, how many % do you people think would understand the above and yet continue to do nothing about it ?

It think 99.9%. 0.1% are rare cases.

just my opinion.

regards
Super Computer manager

Sadly, I can only say that majority of Singaporeans are a simple lot. They tend not to think through issues and readily accept what is dished out by the gahmen as gospel. 25% down on SP rates come January 2009 and many, many people are jumping for joy, some even say “Christmas came early” (they have rocks in their brain, I surmised). They think the gahmen had listened to the grouses and taken the necessary actions to lower the rates in January. NOTHING is further from the truth! We have been CHEATED from October 1 2008 to 31 December 2008 by SP Services by their 21% increase in the utility rates when in fact it should have been lowered. We have and will be paying extra, extra of our hard-earned money in these hard times for these 3 months through some stupid and wrong formula that EMA derived in coming to that 21% increment. They can explain until the cows come home to justify their actions but will NEVER, NEVER admit that it is wrong.

So that 25% decrease given to us is only giving back to us what they have and will be taking wrongly from us from the preceding 3 months from October to December 2008.

End of the day, we are talking only of a net 4% decrease from the July to October 2008 rates – which is the highest in recent years. Oil prices have drop so drastically these few months from its peak and we are talking only of 4% off a peak rate (we can ignore the October to December 2008 rate of $0.3045 per KwH as that rate is and will be a mistake that EMA will never admit). Just look at the pump prices – even these have come off drastically in recent weeks. The utility rates is just NOT following as quickly as it should be and for every month or quarter that it is slow in following suit the crude oil prices, we are essentially being “cheated” in that sense by paying a rate that is incorrect.

Good afternoon,

Two issues come into play here; lot sizing and bounded inventory. The relationship between these two become very complex when you see them against the need to balance 4 factors, price setting / demand / inventory / backlogging cost functions – they are not necessarily linear or related either (they should be, I admit), sometimes they can go their own way.

This is complicated. Very complicated. So let us try to gut out the gobble d guck and make it simple.

Let’s say you run a chain of kopitiams. Suddenly the price of coffee beans shoots up by $10 per kg to $20 kg – what do you do? You raise the price from 50 cents to $1 per cup.

One evening you’re just sitting around in the kopitiam annual convention and suddenly someone tells you. The cocoa traders in the ivory coast have gone amok and they’re setting fire to their plantations; that same person goes on to tell you, Kopitiam A & B who happens to be your rival in the same street has recently placed a 6 month rolling order for 2 tons of coffee at $20 kg bc their feng shui sensei believes the dragon is not happy in the confluence where the Okavango mets the Molopo – the may price even shoot up to $30 in the next few months!

You promptly do the same and so do the other kopitiam owners in the same table; you place an order for 6 months inventory of coffee beans; a few weeks later the price of coffee beans goes down to $10 per kg – its all over town and plastered across the front page of every newspaper.

Your customers ask you; why is it; you’re still charging $1 per cuppa?

What they don’t realize is by that period; you HAVE to charge $1 bc what they’re actually paying for is no longer the coffee per se, but everything else that makes that cup of coffee possible and that includes the interest for the 6 months of coffee beans that you have placed, along with warehousing and backlog inventory etc

The price should go down with time you say every evening to your wife, bfr you turn in; but there’s a rumble in the congo; and its hard to be sure whether this price of $10 per kg is here to stay or maybe it’s just a lull in the storm – and there lies the dilemma; what if I reduce it to 50 cents per cuppa again and then raise it up again to $1 a few weeks latter?

What if my customers say, how siauh? Problem, problem…problems.

[Have to go in for a conference call now...its time for coffee]

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

Its certainly not just drawing a straight line here. Its complicated, very complicated indeed.

haizz, it has been getting tiring of taking about these. Policies are not going towards the people. Everything, just everything is going up up and up. What about the salary? Salary must be adjusted for inflation. What is so call open economy when there is simply no force to prevent corporate from ripping off consumer surplus? Consumers have to simply cut back by having less entertainment and stay at home.
Isn’t the government is involved in every industries? When the ministers are actually the key holder of various corporates, don’t you think there is actually a conflict of interest? For the people or for the company?
The only thing I want is the right to vote. The right to give them a good piece of my mind. Please do away with GRC. Singapore has to change; a two party system.

This Pricing issue and puzzle
serves to lead us to think about other price hikes that were justified or may be justified in future by using oil price as the reason.

When transportation-related services price was hiked using the same reason,
does the PEOPLE / CONSUMER question what happens when oil price went down?

Even if businesses say they buy oil in bulk based on a previous earlier price that is super high, AFTER SOME TIME, will they lower down the price?

if the PEOPLE forget this issue as time goes by, then I fear this question may never get answered satisfactorily, just like many other questions that are piling up.

But 1 day, most of these will be answered.

TKL please run.

They are the blood sucking gov link companies. Every word start with a “S” Suck…until u get broke.

In Singapore, what goes up will seldom come down

their feng shui sensei believes the dragon is not happy in the confluence where the Okavango mets the Molopo – the may price even shoot up to $30 in the next few months!

Very funny SD :) Only price variation over time isn’t a funny thing especially when it comes to things we all cannot avoid not using like electricity.

Do suggest long term solution

11) Ye Pei Feng on December 10th, 2008 3.33 pm
“if the PEOPLE forget this issue as time goes by, then I fear this question may never get answered satisfactorily, just like many other questions that are piling up.”

People will not likely to forget this time. Comes bad economic time and with many retrenched with no jobs, people will have plenty of free time to think about of a lot of things.

Things that they do not usually think out of complacency will out of a sudden become very important when they start to search for all the “missing dots” to connect.

Crisis does improve your memory, intuition and survival skill better. What an irony.

4) Tew NS on December 10th, 2008 1.36 pm
when price of oil dips, bus fare, and MRT fare still remain the same, utility will go down next Jan but transport fares how ? someone , Mr Leong or Mr Tan or opposition please question the govt !! We should vote in Mr Leong, Mr Tan to question the govt if other oppositions can’t do that

I refer above which gets my thumb up. TKL, LSH and Gilbert Goh should meet up to give the ruling Party 3 cts worth of competition in the next GE. All 3 have been identified so far as talking sense wilth reasonable arguments – centralists and certainly pro-Singapore. As time is a constraint, all 3 get started fast to set the momentum. Plse do not get shuffled into joining the present stupid Oppositions or what TKL kindly referred them as “alternative” Parties.

TOC “bongo”, “wanaba”, “hanjo pucho” and “half-baked” people should put all their wts. behind these 3 TOC front runners and carry them into the next Parliament!!!

Living in digital age today, I tend to question why when some cost goes down, why we do not benefit from it immediately… Until a smarter friend explained to me that the oil from Saudi needs to be pump out from oil well, into the tanker then make it way here…Just don’t know the Power company needs to pay first when they order or when the oil arrive. Then the oil must pump into the generator… burn then convert to electrical supply… At least utility charges will be going down. Hope the others like MRT/Bus fare can reduce their price soon too.

16) Oscar Choy on December 10th, 2008 4.30 pm

Wow man, you are really magical. At least, you know there are decent people like TKL, LSH and Gilbert Goh.

For once, I thought you were some crackpot crawling out from our sewage system. There is really a tinge of hope afterall. Good work.

you forgot to factor in their year-end bonus …

My water bill shot up 4 times (and above the national average) even though ALL months preceding it the usage consumption was constant. This happened in the USave rebate month.

Not linking this to anything but just saying that, even as we question why we must pay this high rate for utilities, do carry out checks on your bills as well. SP Services might be overcharging us.

All the above comments are very true .
What the hell are the regulators doing?
EMA, is electricity tariffs really pegged to oil prices?
Or peg to provide filthy rich salaries for the elites?

When oil prices were rising, SMRT, SBS, Taxi companies, school buses are quick to impose a fare hike. Now oil prices is back to below average, what happen to the fare hikes? IRREVERSIBLE?
PTC, where are you? What’s the use of a regulator when it doesn’t do its job?

aiyoyo

oil price so low, but the electric bill think still charge at very high rate leh
(recently news got say ma)

why like that to commoners huh?

who is the ELITEs that so smart (kiang)

go and buy at high price (not sure got keep stocks or not?)

think we can be own procurement also, correct?
(because it’s our own $ sure wont luan luan buy, right?)

aiyoyo

well…looking from another point of view, at least they decrease the tariff…unlike public transport whereby what goes up doesn’t come down

WE TURN ON THE POWER WE PAY
THEY BURN THE FUEL WE PAY
THEY SELL THE BURNER WE PAY
THEY UP THE PRICE WE PAY MORE
THEY DOWN THE PRICE WE STILL PAY MORE BUT LESS
WE COMPLAINED BUT THEY SAY WE PAY LESS IF WE ARE CAREFUL
POWER HERE NOT CHEAP AND $$$$ GOOD FOR INVESTOR BUT WE PAY.
FORGET ABOUT OIL PRICES JUST PAY OR DON”T USE
CAN WE????????? IF NOT JUST PAY>>>>>>>>>>>
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Now you people will finally realised what kind of garment we have here in Singapore. We people has been plucked so many times and again and still think that without them our nation will collapse in 5 years? Well, this is the kind of fear they have always wanted to implant it into the minds of all you people all these years, isn’t it? They are just being lucky to stay in power for so many years not because we allow them, its just because we are not those who likes to create problems. Just see for yourself what happened lately to Thailand and now in Greece, the chaotic scenes of their citizens when they decide to be united as one big mass! these are what can happen when the citizens are being pushed to their limit where living each day becomes like hell and still the garment just don’t give a shit of what happened at ground level, still they continue to make more and more money out of the citizens almost empty pockets. I wonder how long more our garment will continue to test the patience of the people of singapore, remember there is always a limit to everything in life. Hope that they get the message well.

The pegging of tariffs to a fluctuating market variable is supposed to make prices flexible. However, there is also the phenomena of ‘price stickiness’ in economics 101.

Price increase is unlikely to be adjusted by a price decrease of an equal proportion or for long in flexible pricing. ‘In theory’ is one thing, ‘in practice’ is another. I believe in the long run, the tariff will see a steady increase as energy is a scarce resource. So long as gas and oil are used to power the generators, the trend will be an increase. This will be a fact of life.

Instead of arguing how ‘unfair’ it is to use oil prices as a variable in arriving at the tariff, perhaps the authorities can change the way how meters are read (with more reliable and accurate indicators instead of using estimates) and thus allow families more control on the way electricity are utilised.

Answer is simple. When oil price down they dragged until slightly up and justify their price! Like what we used to shout in the army, bloody bunch of “Cao Ku Niang” (smelly sisi in hokkien)!

Vote the opposition to slap the PAP face! Send Leong and Tan into the Paliment to null the PAP!

Dear magus

They don’t check the meter anyway, they only select a few households in the building and take the mean test! Just imagine how many manpower they need to deploy to check meter by meter.

What I suggest is to keep track of your meter on monthly basis and match the one that they sent you to see if there is a different and ask them to revise! Take photo of the reading with date and time stamping!

“Price increase is unlikely to be adjusted by a price decrease of an equal proportion or for long in flexible pricing. ‘In theory’ is one thing, ‘in practice’ is another. I believe in the long run, the tariff will see a steady increase as energy is a scarce resource. So long as gas and oil are used to power the generators, the trend will be an increase. This will be a fact of life.

Instead of arguing how ‘unfair’ it is to use oil prices as a variable in arriving at the tariff, perhaps the authorities can change the way how meters are read (with more reliable and accurate indicators instead of using estimates) and thus allow families more control on the way electricity are utilised.”

Brilliant…magus…you’re moving in the brotherhood direction…that’s good, very good….go one step further….you’re very close to the solution.

I will come tmr to flesh it out further. Yes, my children, you thinking now. You r really thinking. That’s good.

SD

Unfortunately, if they have to raise the tariffs despite lower cost, there’s nothing we can do.

What can we really do?

Seriously?

What can we really do, as people on the ground?

31) Parka

i sure wish there is something that we can do to help improve everybody’s life. but the chances of it is nil…and the cycle will keep repeating…another crazy increase…and all we can do it just criticize it

24) SZ on December 10th, 2008 6.36 pm

well…looking from another point of view, at least they decrease the tariff…unlike public transport whereby what goes up doesn’t come down

————————

Transport hike : I would not be so concerned had the hike reason they used was not OIL.

Read my theory here:-

http://arthurboon.blogspot.com/2008/12/why-singapore-power-must-make-money.html

This is the first “bitter pill” to swallow for selling the three power plants to the foreigners. It is not what it seems when we were told that we will get a better and competitive rate these assets were sold. Can we believe their sound and solid strategies not to hold on to these assets? Now, we are paying more and not less for our electric bills! Do you think you are getting a good bargain or discount as promised? Think again!

Mr Leong Sze Hian, I wish to ask a question do you agree with Singaporedaddy’s analysis that one of the reason why the tarrif remains so high despite the recent price dip in oil is due to a lag in inventory and backlog orders?

Mr Chia, “25% down on SP rates come January 2009 and many, many people are jumping for joy, some even say “Christmas came early” What are you saying this price dip is just temporary?

Can someone please comment on where oil prices are going? I am thinking for buying a car and would seriously value some intelligent advice on this matter.

Dear Jimmy Teh

To know more about oil price fluctuation, I suggest that you search in the internet under “oil peak”. It will give you a indept over view of why oil price up and down. According to the author study, oil has been used widely as a political tool to win vote in USA. It would be fair to say that oil price fluctuation do not actually reflect the real demand most of the time.

Ask anyone working in SHELL or other petrol refinary, you will know that the price of oil is stable thru out time. Rather, it is the country tax that play a very important part that hurt the consumer! You don’t have to look far, just opposite of our island, you will find that Malaysia is pricing their oil price almost the same as Singapore, except they are in ringit we are in sin dollar. So, if they can price their petrol at that kind of price, why Singapore choose to set at current?

Yes, you can say Malaysia is subsidized and their petrol is poor quality (does it really matter as long as it is 95 grade?). Last year, Malaysia stop subsidizing foreigner. Then again, even at their not subsidizes rate, it is still cheaper than Singapore. For this, I conclude that petrol price in Singapore is just another tool for Singapore government to fill their pocket with money! Nothing to do with the actual fluctuation. So, I believe what Leong say is right. It is only temporary. Because when PAP need to fill their pocket, you most likely to see it goes up. The reason why it is down now is because, like USA they are using it to buy votes to stop the complaining.

35) Singaporespirit on December 11th, 2008 10.04 am This is the first “bitter pill” to swallow for selling the three power plants to the foreigners. It is not what it seems when we were told that we will get a better and competitive rate these assets were sold. Can we believe their sound and solid strategies not to hold on to these assets? Now, we are paying more and not less for our electric bills! Do you think you are getting a good bargain or discount as promised? Think again!

As far as $$$ is concerned, our garment never stop and will continue to pluck us citizens time and again, this is our papees policy, they sells our power staions and made billions for themselves at the expense of the consumers like you and me, simple. These elites are only concern in money making policy instead of looking after the peoples welfare cos THEY JUST DON’T GIVE A SHIT about you people. When they accumulated enough funds, they will start their usual self approving pay rise again, so the already millionaires elites will be looking forward to become billionaires soon. Even if they die, they will bring their $$$ with them to their graves.

You ask why? My answer: The PAP Government needs money.

[...] Power to Cost the People – TOC: Fuel oil prices are falling, so why are tariffs still high? [...]

Good Morning 36 jimmy teh

Let me put it this way; this is not a case of how you wish to cut the diamond. As much as how the diamond will allow you to cut it – it’s really a game of balancing constraints; once you’re pegged electricity to oil, IMHO you’re as good as “locked in.”

There is very little room for maneuver. The $64 million question is whether this recent lowering of oil prices is just a lull before the storm. Or is it here to stay?

I rather play it safe and go with the assumption that high oil prices may be here to stay for good.

As for peak oil theory? I don’t buy it; bc it’s based on idea that the natural limits of oil has been exploited to its finite limits i.e the top of the bell curve has been reached and its downhill now from this point onwards i.e demand will always outstrip diminishing supplies; the problem with that theory is, it assumes there is NO more oil; that’s not true; there is plenty of oil around; the problem is mining, processing and delivering it at a cost effective price – so its fair to assume businesses will eventually step up to the plate in the near future to exploit these reserves.

Now having said, there is very little room for maneuver; this doesn’t mean, that there is no way to reduce cost further; there is, we just need to be more clever in how we manage electricity; but before this can be seriously accomplished; service providers FIRST need to shed their glorified postman mentality by regularly “passing-the-buck-to-end- users.” It’s conceivable they are complacent and even lack imagination here.

I personally don’t see any “value added” in passing on the cost to end users that’s really a dummies way of continuous improvement – my feel is if we are going to get on top of how to balance high oil prices to deliver growth; then an entrepreneurial rather than a bureaucratic mentality is required, it’s really a lateral thinking game; and I do have SERIOUS reservations that the current outfit even has the right mentality to succeed in this game. Incidentally this doesn’t just apply to just electricity, it could just as well apply to transport, healthcare and even how how one usually goes about accounting for govt expenditure as well.

One area that should be looked into is automated billing; I don’t understand why we still need to rely on meter readers these days. So if we can do away with those extraneous cost; that would certainly help lower the cost further; another thing about “managing” anything is you always need a clear line of sight; and the logic there is; if it’s a black mysterious box, then how do you even begin to manage it?

I remember someone telling me, Darkness once drove down the quality problems for one of his curry puff tycoon buddies in Malaysia by just putting up a giant board in the canteen where the number of customer complaints was put up. Previously, the workers didn’t give two cents about quality or customer complaints (that could probably explain why some worker in Prima-you-know-who decided to wipe his ass with chocolate cake); but once you bring it to their attention in such a forward in-your-face manner – it drives the point home. In the same way automated metering will allow users to monitor their electricity consumption in real time; the logic isn’t so different from how petrol stations regularly put up large signs advertising the price of fuel to motorist – there is a feed back loop.

So that is one way how technology can come in to save people and planet. But you’ve got to be careful with augmenting anything with just technology alone.

Sometimes, it can work against you. For example, MRT wants to put up acres of glass partitions; bc some people think it’s a great way to say bye bye to the world Anna Karenina style. I disagree. I think in that case the cost can never commensurate with return on investment – makes far more sense to station counselors on suicide prone platforms or beef up the social services to fill up that hole.

Thanks

SD

Electricity price is pegged to oil prices ONLY WHEN IT IS BENEFICIAL TO THE COMPANY.

Other times, just charge a higher rate.

It is agreeable that oil is abundant in other form, but not necessary cost effective to make them available. Most important, those fairly easy to reach virgin oil reserve fall in the US-not-so-friendly countries such as Iran. Unless the US wants to use force to gain access, then again, country like us will pay for US “service” which in term translate into high oil cost.

“Peak Oil” cannot be taken literally as in there is no more oil in the world. Rather it is about whether it makes economy sense to continue using it? This marks the end of the resource, unless some technologies make it cheaper to access the so-called “abundant” oil.

“Peak Oil” means the midway point of production of the fairly easily recoverable fossil fuel. It will still be physically abundant, as will the unconventional sources. The problem really is the end of CHEAP oil. That is what has driven and is still driving the world’s economy. The most important product right now is gasoline. It can be made from sour crude, tar sand, and even coal, but not at a final cost to the consumer of a few dollars a gallon. What good is it if the only way for the refiners to break even is to charge $20/gallon or even more? No one will be able to afford it, which equates to the same thing as it not being physically available, which causes a melt down in the economy as everything dependent on the mobility afforded by gasoline becomes out of the reach of all.

No, there will not be enough oil for the world demand because:

1. To access the so-called “abundant” source will risk causing further damage to the world environment that we already had due to our past industrialisation. It is to say we are seeking self-destruct.

2. Current technology cannot make oil accessible at current price because we will have to go deeper into the sea, melt down ice berg before we even start drilling, convert coal that pollute the earth in order to satisfy the world demand.

3. It takes many years for CO2 to be kept within the earth to normalise the world temperature. Every time a oil well is dug, you simply release CO2 faster than industrialisation activities and cars. Therefore increase the world temperature!

The Truth about Energy:
http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/truth+energy-peak+oil-oil+reserves/475

Author himself:
http://www.nuc.berkeley.edu/Chris-Nelder

“One area that should be looked into is automated billing; I don’t understand why we still need to rely on meter readers these days.”

One meter = few hundred dollars + telephone line charges. Cheaper to do bi-monthly meter reading.

Actually if you want exact billing every month, you can actually post your meter reading over the internet or by post (FOC) to SP Services. Then your bill will be based on actual rather than estimated.

As for passing the buck, speaking as a citizen, it starts all the way from the *cough* top…

BTW the components of the tariff isn’t just fuel price alone. You have transmission charges, capital cost charges, exchange rate, WACC. All these are variable. And the tariff is set against FORWARD PRICES not SPOT PRICES (Leong Sze Hian’s letter). Please do some research and get your facts right first.

Again for those interested, please refer to EMA’s information on vesting contracts.

There is an established method in calculating the vesting contract strike price (linked to the tariff) and “target profit” is not one of the parameters.

Facing the Hard Truth on Energy:
Very detail report that took around 2 years to prepare. You can even download it.

http://www.npchardtruthsreport.org/

I sincerely urge more Singaporean to be awared of the TRUTH about energy. Those refuse to believe will one day find that we are in not the GOLDEN ERA but CAVEMAN ERA.

http://downloadcenter.connectlive.com/events/npc071807/pdf-downloads/Report_Slide_Presentation/NPC_Presentation_71807_Final.pdf

Good afternoon red man,

I understand where you’re coming from and thx for the links – do I deny that crude production has peaked i.e most major oil fields in the world may have reached the tipping point where they are extracting less these days? No.

Let me put it this way Red man; if you speak to practically every single expert who supports peak oil theory, don’t be surprise if all of them have been co-opted by electric cars firms, wind independent power producers etc.

You know why? Bc electric cars can only have an intrinsic value, IF you believe fuel is a finite resource. I agree, those guys are slick like Darkness; by the time they show you all their colorful charts how output will always fall short of demand based on X, Y or Z years. You’re going to step out of the presentation believing that all of us are going to commute around in a donkey sometime in the future.

Are peak oil adherents wrong? No. They are right, PROVIDING you chuck out one thing that accounts for their entire formulation – that’s to say, although they take into account two very important metrics which is global oil OUTPUT and CONSUMPTION. They don’t take into account CONVERSION efficiency.

Why is conversion efficiency so important? Because peak oil adherents just want u and me to register the fact, you’re putting in $150 in your tank every time you pull up to the kiosk. The math of peak oil doesn’t go further to ask what kind of car are you driving? Is it a V8 turbo charge? Or is it a fuel efficient Honda Fit?

So what peak oil adherents fail to take into account is when something becomes pricey; then people are just going to find ways and means to use less of it. Or to try to make more efficient use of it.

Now one reason why GM and Ford is in deep financial trouble today and wearing knee pads to beg for money from the US senate isn’t because they are lousy car producers; they’re just produced the wrong type of cars in a market segment that no one wants to buy these days i.e fuel guzzling SUV’s. See my point, when I say people will find ways of using less of something when it becomes pricey. They want smaller fuel efficient cars; if you notice Toyota doesn’t have 1/100th of the problems GM has – why? Its invested in smaller fuel efficient cars that everyone wants.

The second thing that peak oil adherents don’t ever tell you is that the petroleum industry is the most terminally supine and complacent business on this planet. They have as much innovation as a bunch Amish sitting around a homemade candle; why’s that? Because oil extraction and refining is a no brainer and traditionally, the industry as a whole shuns innovators and smart people; clever people don’t want to work for Texaco or BP. Americans call this the Philip Morris syndrome / dead beat industries attract deadbeats.

But that was bc oil has always hovered at $60 per barrel, now at $147, the smart people are going to say, lets muscle in on these deadenders – so what you’re likely to see in the near future is the dumb people are going to get edged out very soon from the petroleum industry. At $147, they have no where to hide. And when the smart folk come in, they’re not going to just do things like what the dummies used to do – they’re going find even more innovative ways to extract oil from stuff like sand tar etc; and that means although in real terms the yield will be smaller, the conversion efficiency will more than make up for the short fall.

That’s why there can be no such thing as a theoretical peaking of oil.

Thank You red man

SD (Internet Liaison officer of the brotherhood)

“Actually if you want exact billing every month, you can actually post your meter reading over the internet or by post (FOC) to SP Services. Then your bill will be based on actual rather than estimated.”

No Eveline. What I mean is take out those mechanical meters / and donate them to national steel and put in on line meters that can relay real time info to consumers.

That way, I can check my electrical consumption online in real time / the logic is this / if I have to keep tabs on my electrical consumption without having to regularly open up my spider infested meter cupboard to find out how much electricity I am consuming, then I will be in a better position to manage consumption and cut down. This is very different from your proposal.

The point is to make the whole cycle of consumption transparent, I really believe one reason why people dont cut down on electricity is bc they dont have the tools to do so. SP and EMA should look into this.

That way people will know when to pull back; its really human nature. That why when I go out for drinks I leave my credit card at home, that way, I am forced to chat up fat girls who will buy me drinks.

Makes perfect economic sense, but I admit its bad for my new tires.

SD

Like I said, these meters cost a bomb and you need a telephone line to connect it to the “mega billing system” operated by SP. Contestable customers currently use these time-of-day meters only because their bills are calculated every half hourly.

Not to mention you need to set up the backend to cater to such metering. That costs money too and guess who will pay for this?

Barring the tricky question of “who pay”? the cost-benefit so far isn’t tilting in favour of TOD metering. 1.2 million households X $500 per meter (assume) = you do the math.

Much easier to check the rating of the appliances you use regularly and cut down on their usage.

If or when full retail contestability is implemented, and depending on the model chosen by the EMA, all households may have these TOD meters installed. I suspect it won’t be the case though, but let’s see.

Then again there’s been successes overseas with these smart meters. We’ll see what the EMA decides next.

Listen eveline, if you could persuade your bosses to give me some money for a tank of gas to go to Russia to start my business – I will gladly meet them all somewhere and scribble down the equations on a napkin and even walk them through how they can even break even within 12 months with what I’ve just proposed here.

I kid you not! I admit, I cant do this all by myself, I probably need the help of the ASDF and probably darkness to flesh out the finer details but this offer is kosher, its good to go.

Need I remind you. We live in a $2.2 million society. You’re never going to get free consultancy online. All you’re going to get is Hors d’œuvres – that’s why it has to be this way Eveline. Remember knowledge is power and in the brotherhood, we keep it close to us.

I just dont feel its right to spoil the market, if you know what I mean, not especially when some people up stairs try so hard to keep it that way.

Once I get my money – we will talk about nation building. Trust me Eveline.

SD

The meters are a no brainer – I can even get a bunch of kids who regularly work in a garage or a room where clothes go to die and even come up with a prototype and I guarantee you, it will be so reliable that you have no idea how simple it is to set up the whole operation.

Go and find out how are the directors of the people selling the californian state those new meters? Go Eveline.

They’re are brotherhood.

SD

Not to mention you need to set up the backend to cater to such metering. That costs money too and guess who will pay for this? – Eveline (#50)

Shouldn’t the government be investing and co-owning these infrastructure components? Companies come and go, but the government is here to stay.

“Shouldn’t the government be investing and co-owning these infrastructure components? Companies come and go, but the government is here to stay.”

Well since we’re a long way away nobody knows what the future full retail contestability model is. So all we have here is conjecture.

Wow! Cheap and good meters! And one that complies with all the codes and regulations etc! I’m sure the EMA would like to talk to you :)

“Listen eveline, if you could persuade your bosses to give me some money for a tank of gas to go to Russia to start my business”

If you can’t even afford a tank of gas yourself…

Please don’t blame them, they claim that they are only the lorry drivers!

aiyoyo

lorry drivers they claimed??

so good pay package as lorry drivers, should we change job scope huh??

where the ELITEs huh??

need them help commoners out, in times like this leh!

economy so slow, gloomy liao…

aiyoyo

I’m sure that their SGD 1Bill+ profit can easily cover the cost of meter installation and etc.

However, that will make the actual usage data from every household available, and it will weaken their ability to obfuscate bills.

So… to make things fairer and more affordable to customers or to line the pockets of a few people?
Tough decision. Tough decision indeed… (sarcasm, for those who don’t get it)

Hmm, usage data has always been available for you to check. It’s called a ELECTRICITY METER and every household has one outside your door.

If you don’t believe the SP bill readings, you can:

a) countercheck with the readings on your meter;
b) ask SP to check if you believe the meter readings are not accurate;
c) ask SP to investigate if you think somebody has been stealing your electricity.

Your meter is read every 2 months. If the tariff changes in between, there will be some adjustment done using daily consumption average (details on SP Services website). If you hate this bi-monthly meter reading thing, you can also submit your readings online or by mail.

QED.

“If the tariff changes in between, there will be some adjustment done using daily consumption average (details on SP Services website).”

Eveline have you ever tried to access the SP services website and do a conversion on tariff /consumption average? Well I have. Bear in mind, we are talking abt a moving average here. So it is really not so different from the math that is required to land the space shuttle.

So how do you expect ordinary folk to make those sort of calculations – can you pls tell me? I really want to know.

You know as a tax payer and a loyal customer of SP. I have just given you free consultancy that would probably have cost hundreds of thousands, if you went to the Boston consulting grp. But what do you do with my valued advise instead?

You start to mount a defence of mechanical meters, candle sticks and horse drawn carriages / and to justify no end why we all SHOULD make do with paying through our noses to retain a fat layer of meter readers, when I have just given you a list of reasons why we dont. Along with why, we should all not complain too much as we have never had it so good.

Eveline you are making me very suspicious now. I am now even starting to wonder whether it may not be such a bad idea to pack up SP and ship everyone to the Russian front and mothball it somewhere in the Smithsonian instutitute, next to the dodo bird exhibit.

SD

I’m quite intrigued by your posts. I’ve read your posts a few times and other than implying that you have some great idea up your sleeve that will save us all or that the entire electricity industry should all be shipped to Siberia, I am hearing nothing else from you.

As for me, I have no personal interest in defending the current system; whatever the system is, I just go along with it and do my job. Neither am I defending how things are done. What I’m hearing are complaints, complaints, complaints so I provide what I think are accurate information and solutions on hand.

As for the MA thing please provide an actual problem. I certainly had no problems understanding the SP Services website but I guess I’m not understanding the issue here.

Good Afternoon,

Lets not complicate things Eveline bc I dont want your head to explode, just try to imagine if you can – flying a 747 from A to B with a blindfold and you’re get a rough idea of what I mean; when I say, it is impossible to manage electricity without a real time feed back loop i.e smart meters.

One of the reasons why it’s so difficult for manufacturing to take off in Singapore is because no one has come up with a way of how to effectively manage electricity; and one reason why they don’t have a clue is bc folk in SP have not been doing a good job of looking into this area as a matter of strategic priority, like I said, if I was head of state, I pack them off to the Russian front pronto i.e providing end-users with an effective way to monitor electricity consumption in real time so that they can better manage it on a long term basis.

Now why are smart meters so important to the whole solution package? Simple, if you don’t have smart meters; then its impossible to even talk about variable pricing; why? Because if you think abt it, variable pricing is just like tampon management 101, it’s exponential smoothing, that’s all it is i.e being able to identify your heavy and light days; that if you notice, is one reason why SP doesn’t even have ANY clue how to even go about structuring such a complex return on investment model; the fact, remains it’s not that they don’t want to do it; As Dick Lee said in Singapore Idol, “you only think, you can do all these things, but you cannot.” Bc what we are talking about is not only MA, it’s the entire gamut of predictive tools which are typically deployed if you want to manage something on a predictive basis e.g exponential curving / predictive softwaring etc.

All this cannot be done in the absence of real time data – so what we are in effect talking abt is not so much smart metering; as a once in a lifetime opportunity it affords us to effectively manage energy as a resource.

As I said, I do not work for free. I want money to go to Russia and start a business. I believe, you people don’t have the brains to go around this; I do. So get the money ready and I promise you, I’ve be there with my bicycle team. Otherwise, this has to be my final post on this issue.

Tq

SD

Dude, real-time metering doesn’t need to occur at every account level. I’m sure you know the system operator operates using real-time data. So we do have real-time data; we just don’t have real-time data at the account level. Of course the question is what’s the value of having account-level real-time data.

You are right – TOD metering is one key to providing more sophisticated pricing packages (which is why it is one of the key issues for retail contestability). The question is the returns. Singapore is not Russia and we don’t have the four seasons. For the normal household you’re not going to be seeing variable swings of energy consumption through the year. Even day and night loads don’t differ much. How much “managing” are you going to achieve here?

If you’re talking about a TOD meter just for managing energy consumption at household level, consider the materiality. How much are you going to help a household save? All a family needs to do is to check the ratings of your appliances. Everybody knows the aircon is a big consumer of energy; you don’t need to install a TOD meter to tell you that.

For the industrial users yes, there is the materiality and most of them by now do already have TOD meters.

I’m not even going to talk about the politics of the whole issue, which I suspect is behind your veil jibes. Yes these issues exist, and perhaps that’s why things are not progressing as fast as some of us would like them to.

You sound like you know what to do but talking big here is not going to cut it. If you are looking for a business, a forum like this is not the place to do it.

Good Morning Eveline,

“Everybody knows the aircon is a big consumer of energy; you don’t need to install a TOD meter to tell you that.”

Is that true? Yes, it is GENERALLY at least, but if the goal is efficiency, then without TOD metering, you would never be able to determine your parameters of usage against demand effectively at any given point in time – that means SPECIFICALLY, that statement is wrong – bc I can very well argue if you cant even tell me what is your KW consumption on lets say 3.00pm / on the 5th floor of Suntec City on a Sunday – your chances of managing anything is a big fat zero.

Now if you notice, that is why power producers like to talk in terms of TWh (Terrawats) – you know why, bc that’s a big unit of measurement and without smart meters the cant really narrow down their field of analysis to even talk very much about the small picture. Is it such a wonder SP doesn’t want to talk about variable pricing – truth remains, THEY CANNOT EVEN TALK ABOUT IT WITHOUT FIRST HAVING SMART METERS.

Next, why is it so important to capture the small picture of electricity usage? Bc what it means is a reversal of what you have just said i.e everybody knows the aircon is a big consumer of energy. That’s like saying all cars burn fossil fuels, but it really doesn’t tell you how far you’re going to go lets say if you put one tank of gas into a Honda fit, lets say – so the issue isn’t GENERALITY as much as it remains a very SPECIFIC question.

Let me give you an illustration of this paradox:

Now if you go to Byzantine library in Bugis that looks abit like the Aga foundation HQ – what do you actually see? A very big building where maybe books go to die and folk go for an afternoon snooze, but just look at how those dummies are managing their air-con resources there?

How much square footage are they cooling down to an ambient of 25° centigrade? How does that compare with the amount of traffic being served? Tell me what’s the point of cooling down a foyer the size of two basket courts when all you have is maybe 2 people passing through there every 60 minutes?

Now my point is WIHTOUT computer metering you will never ever know whether you are managing resources wisely; bc you don’t even have the options to incorporate sensors to determine how you might actually be making efficient use of your air-con resources in a building, factory or even a cluster of fixed assets. Now if you notice, in annual reports of most public listed firms in the hospitality industry. NONE of them supply you specific breakdowns on how they use electricity, usually its treated as a fixed cost / overhead i.e All costs incurred during the manufacturing costs other than the costs of raw materials and inputs are classified as manufacturing costs. These costs include salaries and other benefits paid to production staff, cost of electricity, water etc

Go Eveline. Do yourself a favor and go find out what’s the best practices in the manufacturing sector in this area. So if you want to talk about “materiality,” you cant just look at the initial capital investment in TOD meters and discount wholesale the cost savings which you would have gained in the opportunity cost that it will provide you with.

But let’s cut to the chase, to make all this turn, you need brain power, loads of it– without it, all these goodies will simply be ALL TALK NO ACTION.

We have many models which we can share with you all to improve not only electricity, but also transportation and its all based on linear programming modeling that leverages on variable pricing, but as I said, it all starts with buying into smart metering and of course my plastic bag of money so that I can haul my ass to Russia.

Put it NTUC plastic bags – they’re good, small notes, I don’t want the income tax shop coming after me.

SD

[...] to Cost the People – TOC: Fuel oil prices are falling, so why are tariffs still high? – Choosing my own adventure: Electricity tarr… oh what the [...]

“You sound like you know what to do but talking big here is not going to cut it. If you are looking for a business, a forum like this is not the place to do it.”

Well spotted Eveline. Bc this is PRECISELY the type of rubber meets the road questions that I expect, ministers and MP’s such as Ah Baey to ask during question time in Parliament. Instead of wasting ALL our time and money pursuing pie in the sky gay rights which frankly speaking no one really cares about.

Think abt it, if the price of electricity sky rockets 20 some percent, do you think, I really care what two consenting adults decide to do behind a bush? Dont care.

And let me tell you another thing, this is PRECISELY, the type of questions that I expect the best the world ST to write about – but what do they do instead? They give us all soundbites and doggy biscuits instead.

So now you have just answered the very question you posed to me. If this people did their job of gainfully. Maybe I wouldnt have to ask all these questions which should be asked.

SD

63) Eveline on December 13th, 2008 8.29 am
“Everybody knows the aircon is a big consumer of energy; you don’t need to install a TOD meter to tell you that.”

Ya la, just cut the electricity rate lah as long as you know there is a lot of fat in between.

Some of us know that you know that a lot of us know that they know what they are doing are just a way to squeeze juice out of us lah.

I dunno. How to cut the fat leh? You tell me.

If you’re talking about energy efficiency, I have a very short answer for you:

Before the meter: SP responsibility; after the meter: customer responsibility.

The longer answer (and trite, I know, but that’s the way it is here and that’s why TOD meter is not relevant in this case) is that if customers want to know how much Xth floor is consuming at this time, it’s the customer’s responsibility and not SP to install monitoring devices.

It also depends on how the metering is done within the building itself. If the meter is not wired such that you can measure the consumption floor by floor, replacing a mechanical meter with a TOD meter is not going to help.

Then you have this master-sub metering scheme which makes my head hurt just thinking about it.

And then you want to talk about the market clearing engine side of things. Now we’re talking big. Don’t do it on this forum; you know where to go if you have want it takes.

Is the current system ideal? There’s probably lots of area of improvement. Now the question is how much it takes to overhaul the entire system itself and whether it’s even wise to do so.

Which is why the electricity industry is waiting with bated breath to see what EMA will do to push full retail contestability forward.

68) Eveline on December 13th, 2008 1.42 pm

Go to NTUC and buy a paring knife. I think this will do the job.

If the fat is hard, then I suggest chopper (NTUC should have this).

Fat that is hard like a piece of rock, perhaps you need to call in our Home Team from the demolition side. Search the internet if this is still not helpful. phew at last !!!!

Good Afternoon,

“Before the meter: SP responsibility; after the meter: customer responsibility.”

I am sorry, but I’ve have got news for you Eveline. I disagree with you most vehemently / that is PRECISELY the sort of pass-the-buck-to-the-customer attitude that I strongly suspect accounts for why so many of us have to REGULARLY put up with unreasonable price and tax hikes cum mediocre services in healthcare, tc’s and how the public sector generally goes about the business of accounting for their actions and policies.

Now please correct me if I am wrong, are we talking about the power grid in Timbuktu or Singapore? Bc I may be under a misapprehension here. If it is the former, then I say, I don’t have any issue with what you just said here:

““Before the meter: SP responsibility; after the meter: customer responsibility.”

If it is the former, then based on what I’ve been regularly sold by the press 24/7, I expect a 1st division response on this matter and that simply means, what you have offered by way of an explanation is simply NOT acceptable and nothing close to the QUALITY that most consumers can even expect.

Neither does your suggested solution of purchasing and operating intelligent metering make any sense either, since there is no way to leverage of cost competitiveness which would usually come about from the economies of scale; if this project is implemented on a precinct or country wide basis. So you jolly well know that what you are suggesting doesn’t even make on ounce of common sense.

I have cc all the entire comments of this thread to the ASDF and you will be pleased to know that a team is currently being assembled to look seriously into the whole issue of price contestability by EMA.

I believe a central thrust of this report will also contain a comprehensive business plan to propose variable pricing and a pilot scheme to test out the feasibility of implementing computerized metering.

Why have we done this Eveline? Bc when the serious people sit down and read our report and compare it with what has been prepared by these deadenders; they will invariably ask themselves sooner or later; “why didn’t the people who are running the show write this report? Isn’t that supposed to their job? Why aren’t they playing the 1st division game like they should?”

You see the way I figure it out; even in the oligarchy of elites; they are serious men who may sometimes even be more serious than the serious men themselves; and when this people see the gap between performance and quality; they will respond very much like Darkness used too and just wave their hands and say,

“This people have failed us, send them all to the Russian front!”

And when all these complacent deadenders are dragged off into some flying saucer, they all replied,

““Before the meter: SP responsibility; after the meter: customer responsibility.”

Eveline, you have no idea how lucky you are that PAP is running this country…no idea……how could you?…no idea what so ever.

SD

And let me tell you something else, if SMRT is dumb enough to approve glass partitions on open air platforms and pass on the charges to me as the end user.

I may just decide to drop the ASDF a line and ask them to do a feasebility study on variable pricing for public transportation as well.

I am sick and tired of being a victim of this pass-the-buck-to-the-customer attitude and I dont see ANY reason why people who regularly claim to be “the best in the world” – “1st division” should even be allowed to hide behind pastry thin excuses, let alone mediocrity – dont say, I’ve been political here.

I am not. I never came out to the world and told everyone that I am the best, you all started that game. I just played it.

SD

Neither did I. I merely stated what the current status is. I’ve never said we have the best market in world; in fact I stated clearly that we could probably improve it.

And I am surprised by your surprise. If you are really the expert you paint yourself to be then you should not be. I look forward to your fictional report; if it’s going to contain anything from this thread it’s probably not worth reading.

Have fun.

Eveline.

I disagree with your assesment of the status quo ante Eveline. As I stated I believe very strongly both SP and EMA are complacent and bovine. I stand by my statement and this does not in any way prejudice their legal rights in the laws of Singapore – in their ongoing efforts to find ways to deliver value to their customer base. I have every reason to believe, they have failed miserably in this regard, in the recent electricity tarif hikes.

As I said, I believe that we should all work towards an agreement that we FIRST need to eliminate the army of meter readers (and probably shut down SP and sack everyone there, bc I really do not know what their role is in the supply chain of value / can you pls tell me, bc all they seem to be doing is putting on their postman Pat hat on and playing some glorified postman role of passing-the-buck-to-the-customer / as I have mentioned, this is UNACCEPTABLE) which is currently contributing to the very high cost of electricity – SECONDLY, I believe there should be an agreement in principle, the way to move forward is by seriously considering augmenting the current deficits in management by phasing in computerized metering – and THIRDLY, this should be concurrently complimented with variable pricing.

None of these things which I have mentioned has been done or even considered on a feasebility basis – so all I am asking is why not?

As a tax payer, I have a right to ask pertinent questions and on record, I would have you know Eveline, that I am yet to receive a valid answer that satisfies me completely.

So try to put yourself in my position – if I have every reason to believe, I am dealing with a bunch of incompetent people here – what do you expect me to do?- except maybe to outsource it to the ASDF to answer these questions which should ideally be addressed by both SP and EMA?

You decide, what is fictitous and worth or is not worth reading, just remember, I have copied this entire thread commentary and it will be read by every single one in the Brotherhood Press.

Good Evening, do try to have a nice weekend ahead. Remember we have the second highest tarrif in the entire world! I wonder why?

SD

First and foremost, you can begin by stop misrepresenting my position. I have stated at least twice that I think the current system has room for improvement. In my first post in this thread I have also alluded to the passing-the-buck mentality. So no I am not blind to the short-comings we are dealing with.

The context however goes beyond mere technological solution. I’m also not in the habit of providing free information to strangers so if you are doing what you claim you are, I’m sure you’ll find them out soon enough.

Don’t worry, as far as I know the EMA is not interested in suing people, not least anonymous posters on forums like this. “On record” on this thread is meaningless if every poster on this thread is using only nicks.

Singapore has the second highest electricity tariff in the world! No shit! Source please.

Eveline,

“On record” on this thread is meaningless if every poster on this thread is using only nicks.”

OK Eveline, you win. Providing I can get money. I’ve be more than happy to put on my leather underwear and get into my Zegna Italian suit, slick back my hair and all of us will get into a V8 jaguar and make our way to any location of your choice and I’ve even throw in a few eye candies like Darkness (how’s that) to spice up the whole event so that you can tell your grand children abt it – a one hour obligation free presentation on how to save us all from the ravages of rising oil prices .

It will be very smooth Eveline, so smooth and slick that when we make the first move and slide in, your bosses will hardly even notice it; as if we’re all covered from head to toe in vaseline – trust me, we have done this many times bfr for many people, no questions, 100% anonymity guarantee and the assurance of a silence.

There is no shame Eveline, if you ppl do not know how to turn the wheel of life – why suffer in silence? We dont understand. Really, we do not. There is no need. History has shown you can buy into a well regulated mercenary market to fulfill every aspect of your aspirations.

Makes no sense when you can go with the flow, think about it – it will be smooth, very smooth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS6FnaI6f5E&feature=related

SD

When a state/company had monopolised all the essential ( electric, water , gas )of life without any competition, there is no incentives to lower the cost. Put it simply, profit is the motive, there is no desire to provide “welfare” but operate the companies as a private concern. This is true also with the running of the country. PAP is the government and through the government all these companies are managed with a simple motive of generating as high a profit as possible. If a family cannot affort to pay, they just disconnect the supplies and the poor family had to fine more money to have it reconnected- making a bad situation worst. The problem is not with the utilities companies but with the gahment. The commercial environment took the lead from the gahment and the change will come only after there is a change on the political front. The link is there but may not be visible to many Sinkaporean.