since watever we say now is useless, the gahmen will not bother anyway, so just vote maboh tan out of office in the next GE..

Like the TCs,GIC and Temasek, HDB is a fully transparent and accountable organisation. So transparent we cannot see anything and so accountable that we end up paying fines and getting evicted if we do not pay our arrears. Now that accountability..

My parents live in a 45 yr old 3 rm flat that is still valued at around $250k over (neighbour’s unit). It does not make sense given the age/lease of the unit. I doubt bank will ever lend for this kind of lease remaining. In my opinion, there is a gross miscalculation with valuations of resale flats

We can only know how much is discounted or how much cheaper than a condo
when there is full transparency on the exact cost of building a flat.

This info exists.

a real monoploy.

i stayed in the same flat with my parents for over 20 years and we have never considered moving. Can’t imagine paying the housing loan all over again. A humble house is good enough & i’d rather save the money to migrate…haha

I feel that the income cap is ridiculous. It actually discriminates people with a higher income from buying flats they deem more affordable. While the argument for the cap to be in place has been to ensure the availability of flats for lower income family, in the end what has happened is that it has made life difficult for most people as they have to constantly work to just be able to pay off their mortgage.

I take personal offense too at the ‘Cheaper than comparative condominiums in the area’ rationale. It is the job of HDB to provide public housing at AFFORDABLE rates, so anything more expensive that a condo would be contrary to it’s objective won’t it? And frankly, if you take away the additional facilities that a condo has and leave the basic building infrastructure there, suddenly you realize there isn’t that much difference in prices anymore.

Again, HDB needs to come clean with its figures and how much it actually costs to build one unit.

I dread the day we will even have to apply for HDB license to buy tents to pitch along East Coast Park and/or under Benjamin Sheares bridge…

If we base on the construction cost and the land cost, SLA / HDB charge us the Land cost at a very high cost per sq feet. Construction cost going down by 10% to 30% during bad time, but I see the HDB selling price keep on going up. So if the construction cost go down, then why our HDB price still going up, that mean the land cost went up to offset the saveing of the construction cost, is it? Where is the tranparency?

We Singapore Citizen start pondering all this so call increasing of price due to the pick up or down turn of the economy.

HDB should increase the income cap to SGD15000.

We have heard complaints like :

1. NEED TRANSPARENCY on TC investments.
2. NEED TRANSPARENCY on HDB costings.
3. NEED TRANSPARENCY on Electricity billing – oil price so cheap now, will 22% hike reverse? What goes up……cannot come down?

4. etc etc etc

Do we really expect anything to change?

For young generations, it will be difficult to buy the so called subsidised flats as the price shot up and will never come down. Young generations have to loan 30 years, and work whole life before they can complete the loan. This is different from those 70s and 80s time when the loan can be repaid in 10 years. I think this is the fault of the govt. Housing is basic needs, and they dare to say providing 86% of the populations a roof over their head. You compare the salary they earn and the quantum of loan, then you will understand.

I am going down East Coast Park to chope my place liao. Anyone got recommendations where to buy cheap tent to fit family of 5?

I agree that the new HDB flats are overpriced. Even with a dual income family, it will take many years to pay for such flats. It is defintely a mistake to peg the price of flats according to the resale market rates and then value them at 30 to 40k below such prices. Market fluctuations will cause many new flat owners to be saddled with negative equity due to all these jumbo mortgages being taken up.

In the 70s and 80s, a family with an average single income could still afford a flat and have sufficient money left to feed the family. I seriously doubt many single income families can afford to do so now after buying a new flat.

aiyoyo

public housing so x, how?

average people ~$1500/month, how?

not sure public housing PEOPLE got do investment also, like TC??

aiyoyo

In the context of Singapore, the strength of extended families and communities have been eroded (e.g. HDB’s Ethnic Integration Policy), because of various government policies through the decades. As such, the government (in its various levels), should be responsible for social welfare as the safety net of the extended family and the community have been systematically weakened through the decades.

HDB housing is definitely overpriced when the buyers have to service housing loans for most of their working years. In my opinion, we are living in a pretty miserable country. I recently saw an Ad on the Aircraft magazine in US with a nice house in Colorado, USA (looks like a 2 storey house) overlooking a snow covered mountain costs just over US$300k. Let’s sell our 5-room cubicle and own a nice house somewhere else.

PAP’s modus operandi is very simple:

Get the people to pay through their nose for a basic roof over their heads.

Come election time, make veiled threats about housing prices falling in value if Opposition voted in, if no lift upgrading, if no LRT/MRT etc.

With so much money tied to the flat, people will kuai kuai vote PAP back.

Even a fool can see what they’re doing.

Don’t fall for their trap. Buy what you can afford (smaller than larger) and then vote against PAP’s dirty tricks!

>>I am going down East Coast Park to chope my place liao. Anyone got recommendations where to buy cheap tent to fit family of 5?

Wait…kena slapped $200 fine for sleeping there how? The beach under NPark’s care?

How about S(leeping)MRT?….google for pics of folks sleeping in the trains.

[...] Housing – TOC: HDB – providing homes or a monopolistic business model [...]

i have posted in http://www.redbeanforum.com on the same issue. the pinnacles duxton 4rm flats are priced $457K to $555K. and this is supposed to be a discount over resale market price for similar flats in the same locality.

in hdb’s website, the resale price of similar flats is $508K. so where is the discount over market price? if i used the above figure, the average 4rm flat at pinnacles is priced at $506K. this will give a huge discount of $2K!. so the buyers must be very grateful for the discount.

with the market prices coming down, the buyers are going to get a shock next year if market price is going to be lower than their purchase prices.

incidentally, the pinnacle duxton’s price has been rammed up by $200k because resale market price has gone up.

aiyoyo

how? public housing so x,

very worry next time,

will more commoners live on the streets?

aiyoyo

The HDB flats are not for the local anymore, the pricing has been inflated so high is because now they targetted to alot of foreigners turn citizens who are also eligible to buy these flats. This is purely profiteering by the garment. Therefore, you local people whether suffer or not is not their bloody business anymore, what they want now is $$$$ and much more.
The only way is to have total transparency of the cost, however the garment will not disclose them as this will cost them to lose their vote. TOC should continue pressing for the cost or else the price will keep rising till no end. Who make the profits and where it goes to, ultimately?

The HDB price is too high.But, don’t worry,it will surely come down as the sun will rise in the east. HDB prices are a lagging indicator of the economy, notice that the prices rose quickly only last year when the economy has peaked. So, expect prices to drop as economy sags, maybe 2010 who knows?

Sincerely, i do not follow much on the property but i do ve a few concerns also.

“we shall now build in sync with demand, hence the BTO model.””
How are they going to predict the demands? Building a flat would be roughly i dunno, 2 – 5 yrs? If demand now, how to supply?

And if demand now without sufficient supply, won’t the prices sky rocket?

“”The above measures will encourage applicants to consider their options carefully before participating in a HDB sale exercise. They will also help to minimize non-selection of HDB flats by applicants who repeatedly participate in sales exercises and thus divert HDB’s time and resources from those with urgent housing needs.” ”

I could ve misunderstand the above which i always do, so pls do not mind me. But given the Gov’s take on encourging families, naturally pple will listen to their advice and get married. So newly weds mostly wan their own house. With this High Price and Limited Options, how to consider their options carefully when in the first place, the options are limited?

“We provide affordable homes of quality and value.
We create vibrant and sustainable towns.
We promote the building of active and cohesive communities.
We inspire and enable all staff to give of their best. ”

The above is the mission taken from http://www.hdb.gov.sg/fi10/fi10296p.nsf/WPDis/About%20UsVision/%20Mission?OpenDocument

Affordable Homes of Quality and Value

Affordable??
Quality??
Value??

Wat’s ur take?

Whats more important to HDB is the bottom line at the end of financial year. It doest help to justify their bonus if you have or dunt have an affordable roof under your head. The long you take to repay the loan the happier they are, so they can continuously tax you as long as they want.

Affordable Homes of Quality and Value

Affordable??
Quality??
Value??

Wat’s ur take?

All are rubbish!

TOC should suggest asking minister Mah to have a dialogue with the people at HLP and see what more rubbish comes out from his mouth again.

today the cost of building hdb flat is no longer in the computation. it is the market price. the pinnacle duxton is the most glaring example. the cost of the second batch for sale is the same as the first batch. but they added another $200k to the sale price because resale price has gone up.

with a clever decision maker like that, hdb should reward him with $10m bonus. but he must remember that he has just tied a $200k millstone on the necks of the flat buyers. and many are first time buyers, young citizens.

I must compliment the quality of housing, but with regards to affordability I’m afraid its way out of even what a middle-low-income earner can reach. Nice words and MSM stats are nice to look at, but the bottom-line is for all to feel and experience.

HDB housing has seen one of the biggest shift in PAP policies.

HDB’s main role was to provide Singaporeans with affordable housing so that Singaporeans can concentrate of helping to build the economy without having to worry about issues that are tied to owning a home or raising a family.

What else can one say about the lure of money? Every PAP pro-Citizen policy has been turned on its head. Do we still recognise these policies in the same cover they were presented to us at the beginning?

No we don’t. Everything about them have changed with one recognisable feature. All are packaged with the same paper that carries the $ print.

In the 60s and 70s the HDB would dangle many juicy carrots so that many Singaporeans would buy those pigeon holes.

Those who became citizens recently ar that time enjoyed these bland designs

A two room flat would cost $6240 (1969) prices and 5 room flat in the new town cost $30K (1978 prices). All of them heavily subsidied

Then out of the blue, they remove all subsidies for these pigeon holes and the prices go sky rocketing.

By the end of the 80s many of these pigeon holes had become not less than $100K

Average young Singaporeans entering the job market could not buy these pigeon holes

Funny for sacrificing and serving the nation like in National Service the least the govt could do is retain the subsidies

So much for expecting loyalty or appreciation

Why won’t there be contemplation to emgiration

I did and I have done it.

good one! the HDB needs to review their pricing structure and also the govt needs to take into considerations the sentiments of the people.

How many couples can really purchase a flat without worrying about the payments where the amount is so huge?

Should public housing (not resale) be much more cheaper and not following the market formula?

Good article. I have been feeling distressed recently when I was considering settling down. The article clearly sums up the cause of my distress. It is a real catch-22 situation. With the current downturn as well, there is a possibility that more people will downgrade thus making the possibility of “owning” a 3 or 4 room flat difficult as well. This is no longer public housing.

aiyoyo

for commoners how to migrate? anyone knows?

aiyoyo

just use your common sense, If you buy a flat, you need to pay until you 65 years old. The contribution to the CPF will be zero by the time you reach 65( only balance special and Medisave). So CPF don’t need to make any retired money back to you. (Maybe just balanced the money inside special account)

Don’t you get the hint? HDB insist their flats are priced for affordability, meaning that if you can’t afford, don’t buy, live in rented flats like foreign workers.

Government complain Singaporeans too expensive, cannot work like slave for $1k per month. You should live like how foreign workers live. Send your family to Batam, Malaysia, China or India, take your pick. You alone stay in Singapore to work, then you can also accept $1k pay.

When your sons come of age, return them back to Singapore for 2 year cheap military labour.

This is just crappy. HDB should not compare prices with other private developments, they should have the people’s considerations in mind. Just make it affordable for the people with no comparison at all. Public housing should always have the one objective which is to have each Singaporean family sheltered. No extra cost, no jacked up prices, no funny quotas or conditions.

I can’t believe our govt still want to make “untung” when it comes to their own people.

An important premise of the article is wrong, so half of the article becomes irrelevant:

“I have always taken great discomfort, when MSM and biased marketing talk always refer to the pricing of new flats as “Discount to the market” or “Cheaper than comparative condominiums in the area’.”

It is known that Singapore’s (lower end, less than $1m per unit) residential property market is a near-monopoly, or an oligopoly with HDB as the price leader. Thus, there is no such thing as a “fair” market price – the market price is set by the HDB.

The price of condominium units is determined relative to the price of HDB flats. The fact that condominium units are more pricey reflects the fact that condominium units are “better” to live in than a HDB flat, so the price of condominium units is adjusted above that of a HDB flat.

The price of open market/resale flats are determined relative to the price of HDB flats.

Since price is determined by HDB, it bears little relation to costs or actual value. (Even costs exceed price is possible as HDB flats are subsidized.) Thus, the arguments based on cost or value of the HDB flat shouldn’t be made.

YA I agreed with most here that now, our public housing is no longer quoting public housing prices but more reflective of the private home’s.

I bought a HDB EC flat in 1993 at $143,000 in Pasir Ris . I could not sleep for 5 nights as I was afraid that I couldn’t pay for the mortgage repayment of around $400 per month for the next 25 years. The downpayment was $28,000 – full CPF payment. I have to borrow $10,000 from the bank to renovate my flat. Those days, the floor was not done up and it was almost bare to the bones.

Five years down the road, I make a small fortune when I couldn’t believe my eyes and ears that HDB housing pirces had exploded. Someone was willing to pay $600,000 for my HDB hole! I sold it off instantly.

Several years later, the price of the flat around that area slided to around $450,000 at it’s lowest valuation after the 911 and Sars epidemic. Just two years ago, someone told me that the housing around the same area could fetch $600,000. What an irony!

I find that HDB public pricing has followed that of the private market’s closely. There is a slight lag period though as valuation takes some time to factor in the prevailing private housing pricies. This is largely affected by the economic environment of course.

My fear is that many people will be trapped by the huge mortgage loan they take up when they buy their dream home. It is almost a sure way to financial disaster when you start your family on a negative financial perspective. They could not sell it off easily as their houses are not heavily subsidised like the 1990s. Most in fact may need to sell it off at a loss if they buy it during the boom period and sell it off during the downturn which is usually the case when we are either out of work or facing some financial difficulty.

My take is that if couples want to buy HDB flats at skyhigh prices of around $500,000-$600,000, they should go for private housing. If you can afford a HDB unit at that pricing, surely private housing is not beyond you.

Most mass market private housing costs around the same price. Just few years back, the Astoria Park at Kembangan was sold for around $450,000 for a 2-bedroom unit. Just last year, the same unit was transacted at around $650,000. Not bad if you have the foresight to buy and sell properties.

Owners of private housing have the advantage of selling it anytime they want or even rent it out when they face financial difficulties easily. HDB houses need a permit from the board to rent it out.

Private housing also sometimes has the added benefit of endbloc potential which will provide you with a landslide return.

I am not for the valuation of HDB new housing using the prevailing resale housing prices. Buyers will lose out if the economy fizzles out which is the case now. Buyers of Pinnicle stand a high chance of buying at the high end. All the best to them.

I dun understand. I’ve been thinking about it and i really don’t. Why make us pay so much? Why? How does it benefit the Gahmen? Why they need so much money for? Even if some of it goes to their pay, also don’t need so much what. Why? Why? Why? What long-term thinking is involved in this?

40)Zefly

I think govt worldwide have this fear that they do not have enough money for budgetting. Ours may border on the paranoid.

It is a realistic fear as many countries now are running into deficit – they not only have to borrow money from the world bank but also think of ways to tax their people.

In Australia, the govt is running on a A$40 billion budget deficit. Now, they are thniking of ways to take back from the people by removing alot of social benefits like school going children’s transport subsidy and not building the promised rail way from west Australia to the city.

AS we cant tax our people and businesses too much due to our tax-haven status, the only way to take in more money is through the GST taxation and other means e.g. ERP, CPF, COE, S & C and others.

Of course, the people suffer whereas those in businesses enjoy their profits due to our business corporate tax philosophy. Singapore is one of the most profitable place to do business and many foreigners flock here to start a business. Our people so far have yet to catch on this business mindset. Thus, the govt van only allow more foreigners to come in and set up businesses and employ our workers. It could be due to our educational or cultural upbringing that we can only be workers and not bosses. Even the govt encourages us to give way to businesses as their budget will be very pro-business in nature.

Many of my friends work for Indians, Chinese, Saudis, Arabs, British, Dutch, Americans who many are first-time business owners. They could only dream of starting a business in their own country due to the many bureaucratic and corrutible environment. They find starting a business in Singapore a breeze. Some even could get very good loans from banks.

I DO NOT understand the singapore situation.
I DO NOT understand this 1st world population.

Do you think you are different than any other country people in the world when it comes to asking and getting answers?

I THINK WE MUST NOT RUN AWAY FROM THIS PROBLEM ANY MORE.

TDDW, now.

Gilbert, I don’t think Singapore is, as a whole, considered a “most” profitable place to do business. Perhaps it is more profitable and simpler than some other places, but it is hardly the most. I could link you up to the relevant statistics which contradicts such claims as yours. On the other hand, if you have evidence which supports your point, I would be most interested to hear it.

Depends on what kind of business and who you know, I suppose.

43)Dingfeng

Hi I don’t have hard evidence to support my views.

It is probably more from hearsay and personal perception.

If you have evidence to support your stand I will be glad to know.

Anyway, it is like a trend that many foreigners prefer to set up shop in Singapore than their own country. Maybe they are mostly from Third world countries like China, Vietnam. Indonesia or Malaysia with poor infrastruture and corruption to boot. Though the costing is high, they find that our country provides more opportunities to succeed than theirs.

You Singaporeans are Really full of COmplain everyday… It is all you people that voted for PayAnd Pay every election and get crap MP new talent from Malaysia like Ms Lee for AMK GRC … Full of TALENT like how she handle Table Tennis team .. anyway AMK this coming election DON’T forget to VOTE PayAndPAy Again. THE BEST NEW TALENT TEAM AMK GRC..BEST NEW TOilet Award goes to AMK MP from the Cina Kampong

1 A quick summary of “The HDB Flat Pricing Scam”:

(a) There is no COST subsidy given for HDB new flats by PAP Govt.
(MBT’s clever use of the term “MARKET subsidy” is meant to confuse the people — it merely means “priced slightly lower than prevailing market value of similar resale flats”)

(b) On the contrary, the HDB is making cleverly-disguised profits from the sale of new flats. (The millions of losses in HDB annual accounts are likely from “creative accounting in inter-ministry transfer-pricing” eg between HDB and S’pore Land Authority).

2 More details are in my post “HDB Bullshit Replies (under $2m Minister Mah Bow Tan) at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Sg_Review/message/5197

Hi all,

I know this is off topic, but did anyone read the straits times and today paper on the Lehman brothers update.

It seems the news on both the Straits times and Today is split into 2 pages.

I usually thought news would be covered on one page to give readers better visibility.

I had this problem of reading one section and then looking for the other piece in some other page. By that time I have forgotten what i have read on the first page.

Wonder if anyone has this problem or is it just me

The truth of owning a condo and HDB:

Condo: When enbloc, you collect a windfall of maybe a million dollar or a few more millions. Because the land belong to the individual owners.

HDB: When enbloc, you end up with a compensation that may still not enough to buy a new replacement flat that is smaller in size(surely) and needs another $50 to $100k renovation.

The newer DBSS HDB
Private …………………..vs………………………………. HDB
Cost (Freehold higher than 99yrs)…………….Quite X
Manitenance comparable ……………………….or lower / mass market
Security manned…………………………………….Zero Securiy or Survelliance Camera
Full Facilities…………………………………………..Limited Facilities or communal facilities
En-Bloc windfall……………………………………….SERs entitlement if any.
Real Ownership……………………………………….LESSEE as HDB is owner?(If correct)
Class Status ……………………………………………Commoner
Good Re-Sale value………………………………….Limited Re-sale value

48) Off topic on December 3rd, 2008 10.17 pm

thanks for sharing your observation. I personally have not bought or read MSM for a long long time. thanks for the update.

why resale flat more expensive when it has less years left , eg 20 years less, than new flats?

47) DavidSeeLeongKit on December 3rd, 2008 10.10 pm

no matter what, I want to express my strong Respect for your voicing up in a sensitive manner, which can be subjective.

Took a lot of persistence (and many years) before we found that that the “subsidy” is “market subsidy”. Still wondering what the government’s definition of affordable is. Is affordable healthcare defined similarly as affordable public housing? :)
Under our best health minister ever, my health insurance premium has gone up by a third… Still affordable.

- THIS ISSUE IS MUCH DEEPER AND FURTHER THAN YOU THINK -

I believe some of the best speaker including the author himself if send to the Parliament, PAP sure headache. At the same time, I would like to say, is about time Singaporean show some awareness in this issue.

If not, during your son or daughter generation, they will have to pay until your grandson retire! I mean this is the only way it is heading and final solution for the whole problem if it continue to spread like a disease.

However, have any of you think about this? If say, Opposition won the next election and became the ruling party. They can’t solve this problem too! Imagine those paying through their nose buying HDB during PAP ruling, suddenly realized that the new HDB build by opposition is very much cheaper. I guess they will curse and swear, because nobody is going to buy resale any more. Eventually, their flat with initial value will drop to how much? Can you imagine that scenarios?

- THE REVENGE –

What I am trying to elaborate here is that, many of the current PAP policy have very toxic effect over the long run!

They are so rotten to the core (as I call it), that our whole country will go into a temporary “coma” (in computer, we call it Ctrl Alt Del or reboot) just to revamp it!

All these, we only have Singaporean to blame on it own. Despite so many of you know the con-scheme behind the HDB housing that had been selling to Singaporean from MAH BAO TAN, are you not surprise that every time when these high price tag HDB are launched. You even have Singaporean camping over night at site to be the first one to get their hand on the high priced HDB!

To get back to MAH BAO TAN and PAP is simple. You do not need to wait for Election Day to make our statement. Every time when they launched such project, stay at your parent’s place like me and refuse to buy. Then wait and see how long HDB can last.

Then again, like in the army, Singapore never lack of Sabo KINGs and QUEENs

And seriously, I don’t know how they can afford it since I believe majority of the couple don’t have a house hold income of $8000. Like this article say, even at $8000 per month, you still need to fork out cash on monthly basis!

It is GREED I tell you, all those Singaporean couples think that after 5 years when they sold their landmark unit example like Duxton “Peniscle” Project. They can make a hefty profits out of it. However, forgetting that when suddenly within the five years if there is any economy downturns. They kana Lan! Serve them bloody right.

above comment I deem it as

- BACKFIRE -

Redman:

I tend to argue with you that people purhcasing the Pinnacle will make losses if they sell within the next few years due to the economic recession.

No One knows how much they will make though if the boom time continues which is of course not the case now. However, we are all speculating here as they could make some money when the market turns around in a few years’ time. I foresee that the chances are slim though as they bought it at the peak. You buy high you have to sell it higher in order to make so the chances are slim.

I also agreed with you that if Singaporeans don’t rush up to such highly-priced units, HDB has no choice but to reduce their prices. However, HDB is smart as they don’t build so many flats now and when supply exceeds demand you know how the economic theory works. Many have no choice then but to purchase ressale HDB flats coughing up to $30k to $50k cash over valuation when they buy their HDB 5rm to EC unit. They have a rebate of $30K if they stay within 2km radius of their parents.

Ten years back after I sold my EC, I have no chance to buy any flat back as the market was really bull-ran. Every unit I viewed was gone within the day! So in frustration, I have to rent as I have to return my unit back to the seller.

To my horror, the market dived 6 mths later due to the 1997 financial crisis. Most private units that I viewed fell by almost 100K to 150K in pricing within a one year period. I have also more choices as developers try to dispose off their balance units after TOP. I managed to get a good sized unit almost 30% discounted from the launch price. I guess I benefitted from my slow reaction to the market than anything else.

I am also unsure why Singaporeans are adverse to renting. The best time to rent is when you have sold off your unit during a very boom period as properties’ prices tend to follow the economy closely. Many who got their millions from enbloc sales bought back immediately another million dollar unit and frankly they got nothing back in return. If they have rented, they could have a better pick this time round as market is expected to crash next year due to the economic crisis. This property market bull-run typified that of the 1990s when prices bordered on the ridiculous only to have the 1997 Thai financial crisis bursting the bubble soon after.

Of course, it is difficult to time the market as property involves a very huge investment and if it is for owner occupation, many will have some attachment to the place that they have stayed in.

it is affordable in the eyes of the multi-millionaire ministers we have.

Like many other govt services and policies, hdb is positioned to put a leash on the citizens. Come election time, all leashes are yanked at the same time, that’s why there’s still a majority vote for the PAP each time.

For any real solution to this and other problems like utility, transport, education, etc, change is THE answer. That’s why I advocate voting the opposite camp to break their stranglehold. If PAP continues to remain in power, in the next few decades, Singapore would have been prostituted to the bones. All core assets would have been sold, public goods and services would be non-existent and we will be a colony to all who have bought a slice of Singapore.

I suspect these might be the reasons why they want to sell flats at such high prices:

1. They can avoid paying the interest for the bulk of your CPF savings if you buy a flat at a high price. To them the bigger loan amount you take up the better it is for them. Even better still if you have to stretch your loan period till 30 years. Big burden is taken off their load in the end.

2. Due to their policy of setting low interest rates for the Sing dollar, our currency is in devaluation, especially when the inflation rate is so high like right now. It is difficult to maintain a strong currency when economy is not doing well. Maybe one way to mitigate the loss of purchasing power of the Sing dollar is to price the flats high.

#58 Gilbert Goh

Don’t have to argue, I have the same feeling that Singaporean who went for the “kallang EC”, “AMK EC” and “Penis-cle EC” will eventually suffered! I mean, for first hand they had brought it at almost 500k for a 4 room unit. If the yare going to sell it reaching 600k, who would buy it?! May as well, get a private condo with swimming pool and facility for additional 100k away from the town area!

There is nothing wrong with rental, as a matter of fact, you don’t bloody own the HDB any way. If you look at it carefully, how many people actually stay in their HDB unit until they finished their loan to HDB or bank? One way to look at it, we are only renting the HDB. However, the main contrast is that you can rent it with your CPF when buy a HDB. But if you go into rental like what you are doing now, it will be cold hard cash that eat into your monthly expenses! Moreover, why bother to leave your CPF untouched and let our gahmen invest in some foreign lose cause?!

Now, my early years doing sale tell me one very simple fact. Take for example, selling camera. Alot of package deal selling together with the lenses, tripod and memory card in a bulk price might seem attractive and good deal. However, when you brought the equipment and use it, you find that those extra lens you seldom use it at all and the tripod not strong enough to take the wind. This is because, the sale people are packing all those hardcore products that just don’t leave the shelves and sell it to you! My point is, you can rent or buy HDB, question you want to ask is what is your current income status? Which option subject you to a minimum risk? Since we now know that Crisis come in a very regular basis. It is important to look at the affordbility.

Gilbert:

Referring to your comment that because it is BTO scheme, it will not affect HDB if Singaporean don’t go for it. Not totally truth because all strike and protest has it’s effect.

Imagine within a period of 12 months, nobody go for any BTO when it was launched. There is no construction projects for 12 months. Do you know how many people and company will go into a mini economy crisis? Truth is HDB project fed a lot of construction activity! They cannot afford not to build at all!

Best part about this protest is, I call it non-violences, and neither Government can charge us strike for not willing to use our CPF.

Singaporean want to make the Gahman listen, there are many way. But in the first place, Singaporean must have a united front. Seriously, I don’t really think election is the only way to make PAP feel the pain, slow down and start listening.

If Singaporean don’t buy car for half a year, some one else will push the Government. If Singaporean don’t go to shopping centre for half a year or movie half a year, someone else will push them. You only need 70% of all Singaporean to do that to inflict the maximum impact on the economy.

63/64) RED-man on December 4th, 2008 9.40 am

I agree with u tat there will be a effect but do note wat PM said before.
http://informationreadbyme.blogspot.com/2008/11/now-is-not-time-to-save.html

So if we do this, farther down the road will become our fault which also has happen before.

Remember the Stop at 2 in the past? And the current lack of talents/workers issue?

/// 63) RED-man on December 4th, 2008 9.35 am
Imagine within a period of 12 months, nobody go for any BTO when it was launched. There is no construction projects for 12 months. ///

Red-man, BTO stands for Build To Order. In other words, if there are insufficient orders, those blocks won’t be built, simple as that. So, what you imagined won’t happen. No demand for those BTO flats means no BTO projects in the first place and no such launches to begin with….

Dear T

If you have a gold shop, you make jewellery according to demand. No demand, don’t make. Totally agree.

However, if no demand for 1 year. Every month, you open shop still need to pay rent, worker, electricity etc! How long you can tahan???

HDB not worried if there is BTO or not. At most they’ll just have another ‘retrenchment’ excersise and move the staff over to Surbana.

Unless HDB close shop lah. Then good mah! Housing is truthly liberated from Government control! But I don’t think so lah.

If you look closely at our HDB and CPF. When buying a HDB simply mean Singaporean endorsed in document that his CPF to be transferred to HDB. Thereafter, HDB have your CPF and you get a physical shell (give you something already huh). HDB then loan the CPF to our GIC or worst invest in mini bomb!

Therefore, without HDB, how they going to make you hand over the CPF to them to play with?

YES, you can say that even CPF remain untouch, they still can take directly from your CPF account to invest. However, if they lost the money, they basically have to be 100% accountable for the losses!

Because, your CPF is still virtually yours! They have to send monthly CPF statement to you mah (Oops… did I say monthly? Kanna brain washed).

Red-man, there is always demand for HDB flats from new household formations – newly weds, new citizens and new PRs. Even in the worse of times, the yearly demand will be a few thousand units. Assuming there is little new demand, then HDB can always create “artificial” demand by going for SERS (Selective En-Bloc Redevelopment Scheme – the public sector equivalent of the private sector en-bloc craze). Tear down the older housing estates and builder new ones…..

T:

Yes, you are right on that. How can I missed that? SERS! You are so clever! However, SERS they bor make so much money lah.

T:

PR cannot buy new flat. Sorry

i visited the hdb website and the 3Q 2008 median resale price of bukit merah is $438k, central is $386k and queenstown is $481k. now, how would these compare to the discounted market price of pinnacle 4rm flats at $457k to $555k?

Two of the letters compare the selling prices of the Pinnacle@Duxton flats against its earlier launch prices and asked about the cost of the flats. Such comparisons are not meaningful as HDB takes a market-based approach in pricing its flats. The new flats are sold according to what they would fetch on the open market, but with a generous discount which is the subsidy that buyers enjoy. When the market goes up, HDB prices also move up. But when the market goes down, new flat prices are reduced. In the late 1990s after the Asian Financial Crisis, the property market suffered a severe downturn. HDB followed the market and moved prices downwards. In Sengkang, for example, the average prices of some five-room and executive flats were up to 30 per cent lower in 2005 than when they were first offered for sale in 1997 to 1998.

We thank the writers for their feedback.

Ignatius Lourdesamy
Acting Deputy Director (Marketing & Projects)
for Director (Estate Administration & Property)
Housing & Development Board

according to the above letter, comparing against earlier launch prices is not meaningful. so comparing latest market price is meaningful. can hdb show the public how they derived at the pricing for pinnacles and how much is the generous discount given in these cases?

74) Redbean

Why not ask them how come they want to peg prices to market rate as opposed to construction costs?! I don’t buy the argument how our flats could be ‘heavily’ subsidized if condo units only cost marginally more. Unless of course HDB had been ko-toked by the same construction company over the years. The maths just don’t tally….

Mission statement of HDB:

We provide affordable homes of quality and value.
We create vibrant and sustainable towns.
We promote the building of active and cohesive communities.
We inspire and enable all staff to give of their best.

I think they should just strike off the first line in their mission statement.

This is just pure profiteering from the citizens, and nothing else because they know that they can monopolize the market and inflate the prices so that they can just empty your entire cpf saving and then you have to pay cash to them, simple as that. They just want alot of $$$ out of you peoples’ pockets.

Red Bean:

Thanks for your letter shown on post #74.

It clearly shows that when you buy new HDB flats during the boom period which was during the past two years, you may have buy them at the high end. This is not unlike of purchasing flats from the resale market which follows the economic environment. This trend also follows that of private units.

Of course, HDB has factored in about 20% off the prevailing sales prices of resale units but we have seen that prices of flats can go down more than 20% in a down period. Thus, HDb I think has tricked us all along by saying that they have subsidised units. They do if the prices stay flat ie. the prices of flats do not fluatuate but we all know that resale units act like private ones and they do swing wildly at times.

For example, a HDB resale executive unit in the 1995/6 was quoted at $600K average but the same unit dropped to as low as $450,000 during the down period immediately after 1997 Thain financial crisis period to 2006. Prices only went up during the economic boom of 2006-2007. Prices have since dropped off slightly due to the current recession. It is expected to drop further next year.

As valuation follows that of the economy, those who buy at the high end last year or earlier may be screwed even with the subsidy given by HDB. They may have to stay in for a long time or wait for the boom period to return soon.

hi guys,

there is a saying, ‘with friends like these, you don’t need enemies.’

how to translate this quote in the context of govt and people?

and they talked about transparency whoa?

A 4-room 100m2 private condo in China Guangzhou cost only about S$100k. With S$300k (the price of a hdb 3-4 room), somebody can buy a private condo, need not work for 20 years while enjoying a comfortable lifestyle, and for Chinese blend in comfortably in China. No wonder our 20-30 years old Singaporean are all leaving Singapore. And our politicians still do not understand why our younger Singaporean are leaving!

Mopolistic HDB and monopolistic PAP.
There is a need for anti-trust action against the govt!

aiyoyo

no wonder PRC so $$$,

their house not so x,

then got cash $$$ on hand la…

but look at here, very tough here leh..

aiyoyo

I believe problems like this started because everything is privatise and they started a business method to earn more and more till we become broke and surrender our property to them and that is why it is call leasing not ownership of the HDB flat. Singaporean got to understand that when a bill is being enacted into parliament as a citizen everyone has the right to question the bill before it becomes effective into law. It’s not wrong to write your intentions and request for explanation about the bill. You are doing a favour to you, your family and friends by questioning the bill that has to be safe before it pass by the parliament .

In the 1970s, a 4 room HDB flat cost about 4 years of an average person’s income. It was affordable public housing.

Today, a 4 room HDB flat in Punggol will cost about 4 years of a combined family income (with both spouses working). Two working persons does not mean that they have double the income. There are expenses to be spent in commuting to work, eating outside, clothes, etc. There is also the need to pay for a maid to work in the home and look after the children.

A HDB flat, at today’s prices, is a big burden to the family. It is no longer affordable. This is one factor that accounts for the reluctance of many family to have children. They cannot afford it.

The monthly installment for a HDB flat is barefly affordable, if both spouses have full time work. If any spouse is retrenched, it will be a burden. There are many cases of installments in arrear.

At present, the interest rate on HDB loan is 2.6%. If the interest rate moves up to 5% due to a rise in interest rate in the future, the monthly installment will increase by 25%. This can be a source of future problem.

What can ordinary people do? Do not over-commit to buy an expensive HDB flat. It can be a burden to your family finances.

If you are counting on the combined family income of both spouses, choose a flat that cost three years (not four years) of the combined income. Keep some savings for the future.

If many people are more prudent in their spending, there will be less demand for HDB flats and the prices will not keep on escalating.

Dear fellow singaporeans,

i strongly believe that the government is trying their best to do what’s possible in their most favourable outcomes, perhaps government first, then us. The housing pricing is indeed hilariously high as all of us try to debate this.

Even if the most eloquent speaker from the government would argue otherwise that since we have cheaper alternatives to choose from, then it is really not their problem. It has become a major hotspot for discussion and in no means, working towards our way because all DBSS is commerciallised and the plot of land sold is for such a high premium and i strongly believe that if government wishes to do more for us, the first time house buyer deserves a place in a matured estate, they should either pass off some rebates in terms of lower interest or additional housing grant.

Afterall, the poor and the middle income are very closely knitted in terms of pay and mostly squeezed by the parties involved.

So to the government, we need cheaper housing and pls dun push us to faraway suburbs because we cannot afford.

The Singapore HDB and private properties are going to enter into a Sub prime crunch.

In the past, economy was growing in the whole region From Singapore to Taiwan, US plants were shifting out of US to avoid the high local salaries on low level workers. They moved the factories out of US into Mexico, Asia etc which house their low cost factories. US was the economic driving force for Singapore.

With the wealth of manufacturing in the 70s, 80s and 90s, the decline start to show in since late 90s. Singapore changed from the back bone manufacturing into financial services. Despite being the hub of many high tech manufacturing sectors for US, Singapore never retained any people nor technical know how. When US investors pulled out, the Singapore government embraced financial services and took after the model of London.

Already, UK has showed decades of decline by loosing technology know how and manufacturing, falling way behind US, China. However, Singapore government did not learn from the mistakes of UK but instead followed on.

Now, Singapore is hit by a global down turn in which demands are falling more than 50-60%! This is very bad news because the manufacturing sectors are now wiped out and will not recover again. Many US executives have now decided to move to China for every consumer electronics, heavy industry and medical supplies. Singapore technology was a Hawker Center style management. I will make what sells well. The industry and even university have sub standard technical people. How to compete even with the surrounding countries.

Never mind industry, lets move to financial services. Singapore took on financial investments heavily and true enough, made over S$150 Billion in recent years. That was a big achievement. But bear in mind, how much was bubbles or inflated values on paper?

Today, April 09, we can see it hitting Singapore hard now and will be worse. No more jobs, no more demands, no more industry. People who came in as foreign now are moving elsewhere very rapidly.

I predict by end of Q3, private property will be half of the value, as more and more default payments and enter bankruptcy.

Even those who were holding prime properties will be hard hit because income has fallen sharply, they cannot maintain the same payment. So, prime will become subprime property. This is a dangerous vicious cycle.

The worse thing is many developers pushed out properties recently, dumping so much units and get the banks into heavy commitments. The banks should have halted all these loans as they are already badly hit by the global exchange and lost billions in loans. Were are the cash coming from?

I also predict Singapore will enter into the subprime crisis mirroring the US American downfall. There will be many out of job and not able to service their loans. We already know it is all too common for salary cuts and the cost of living in Singapore continues to rise, never plunge. Inflation figure is way higher than official.

Once again, the government fail to look into the examples of US decline and continue to cash in on property sale. I feel very sorry for people who committed to properties in the past two years. Especially those who are buying property in Q1 09 needs really think of a way out.

The world’s worse is yet to come, and committing to property at its artificial peak only speaks of the mentality of many Singapore’s folks. If you want to look at the figures, check the US sites and see the global trend. Singapore has not seen the bottom yet.

I felt really depressing, actually hope to write to Mr Mah. I have went for several house viewing on resale flats recently and its still at a crazy pricing? I was at farrar park, mc nair and some hdb flats and i wondered why would the flats nowadays be so small 95sqm for 4 room, 450k as compare to the 90s, EA flat for about 240-300k which is at a more resonable pricing and better location? I actually see alot of Singaporean (in my generation) struggling like me with this and i really hope that our government would step in to help. I really don’t understand if flats were to build, why would they be so tiny and that it actually pressured people to buy cos there are not much of an option and price is 450k, and considered cheap in the market? Everything makes no sense to me now staying in Singapore. I actually preferred how the country was run earlier on. Even folks working in the government sector has some attitude, we always need to comply. No questions asked. And, that now that i am retrenched, everything seems to get worst and i hope the government would be able to understand how a commoner like us would feel if they were in our situation. Pathetic and helpless. So what the reason to stay in Singapore now?? What are the benefits to us? There will be more ended up like old folks that stay under the hdb flats or collecting cardboards in future?

In some country, typically the amount of loan or mortgage is pegged at 3.5 time combined house hold ( both spouse)or 3 x single income over 25 years period. It seemed to work well over the years. The loan or mortgage is typically provided by a bank or Building Society with no gahment involvement. Some form of tax relieve may be provided. The housing market is totally in private hand. In Sinkapore due to its small size, land is extremely expensive and precious so the gahment took charge which one would have hope offer the state the opportunity to regulate and maintain affortable housing for all its citizen rather then using its monopoly position to make financial gain. House prices were rising faster then income as many rich FT/FW and foreign students parent start to buy into the limited housing stock. Either the state bar non Sinkaporean from buying or build more to meet the increased demand. To benefit from it and not doing anything to correct a situation they had created in the place is monopply, no other word for it.

Debt is the best form of slavery. It is naked to the eyes.