It’s absolutely transparent because this is not a secret society activity where there is secrecy and so on.
Khaw Boon Wan, on town councils’ investments (Straits Times, 19 Dec)
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Whether it is transparent enough is debatable. Depending on what infomation one is looking for and how the TCs chairmans/managers respond to emails and queries seeking such information.
After reading the article, I would say his remarks are fair and down to earth. What I call “ren hua” (meaning words spoken by a human being).
Some questions that have not been addressed are :
Why is there such a large accumulation of sinking fund ?
What is the basis for putting aside 30-35% of S&C charges to the sinking fund every month ? Just say that it is the law is not enough. The govt must disclose the basis of this decision on the percentage.
I am still of the opinion that the sinking fund managed by each TC must be capped based upon the expected outlay for cyclical repairs to be carried out in the next 2 or 3 years.
is he on medication? absolute transparency? without a shadow of a doubt? absolute poppycock!
Imagine a person with AIDS telling you “My blood pressure is normal, my pulse is normal, my [Insert any other positive test result] is normal. So I’m healthy. Let me sleep with you.”
Of course, it would not be in his/his system’s interest to reveal to you his most recent HIV test result.
Khaw’s TC is one of the positive samples. That is not where the problem is. The problem lies with the several other TCs who have lost money in bad investments and are trying very hard not to reveal any more information.
What is interesting though, is ST using a 2 page spread to try to brain wash the general reader about a fact that is plainly obvious.
That smacks of desperation.
So could elections be around the corner?
It is naturally dark because the Sun has set.
It is perfectly normal to see nothing in darkness.
Secret Society is secret meh?
Then how do you know it’s secret society?
puppy.
If it is so transparent then why elites don’t dare to tell us what their current paper losses/ profits are right now?
If it is so transparent then why elites don’t dare to tell us what is the performance of their fund managers who invest in high risk investments versus those who invest in low risk ones for the last few years?
If it is so transparent then why don’t they hold a townhall meeting and let the residents decide if the current crop of Town Councillors are still up to the task or should be replaced?
There is no smoke without fire and now we can smell their burning asses a mile away.
Our gahmen is sending out their most credible minister to address to the funds issue.
This i agreed its plainly brain washing at work. It has to be well planned and executed. Otherwise, why the delay after the big ‘hoo haa’ to address to this issues?
Is he talking on behalf of his TC or other TCs. His own TC it is ok, but other TCs like Pasir Ris and Bt. Panjang then I am doubtful.
In the news article, he said that all the information is in the annual reports. Not all TCs have uploaded their anuual reports to their website. So, those who have not uploaded their reports have something to hide? He said that it is not necessary to show too much information as it will lead to information overload.
Well, show us all the information first and let’s us decide if it is an information overload. They are trying to use KBW to bring closure to the TC investment debacle.
Mr Khaw, hold your horses and not so fast. It is not over yet.
Again, they think that people are stupid.
So tell us how much was invested and in what bonds/investments. And ultimately, just tell us how much you friggin’ lost the money. Gee… how hard is that?
Let the people decide if the TCs had squandered the savings, not according to you. Let us decide if it was transparent enough, not according to you.
Purely because it’s our money!
18 words, you’ve breathed out, Khaw, which is meaningless to us.
Let me teach you how to save your breath with 7 words instead:
“Ok guys, I think we ‘stuffed’ up”.
Sheesh. If only your words are worth the millions paid to you.
Kaffein
Why don’t TOC compile a list of questions we want answered and send it to him? This will allow us to gauge the level of secrecy, whether there are secrets or none at all.
Another “Ling How Doong – Don’t talk cock” Minister
khor, how much money were invested in toxic products given the transparency?
oh you meant, an annual report and financial statement = transparency?
wow, my intelligence is impressed.
I think really there is no other way out.
the koo koo clock must stop
in order for big bang version 2.0
the new creation.
“It’s absolutely transparent because this is not a secret society activity…” Wow, that’s some pretty good stuff you’re smokin’. Gimme some of that dope!
Wow. Very transparent indeed. Ummh..let’s see: ” It’s absolutely transparent that [your mother is a woman] because this is not a secret….”. Better? See, I am telling the truth as it is.
Does he know the differences in ‘transparent, translucent or opaque’? Or perhaps he was refering to that kind of mirror where one can look out from the inside and cannot look in from the outside? Still transparent wat, from where he is sitting, right?
that I am disappointed with Mr. Khaw and his words. We may not be the smartest but we are no fools either.
How much have we lost? We just want a number. Is it so difficult?
I agree with point 10, I think it is a good idea , because they really don’t know where to start.
Good if we start to complie questions, these are mine.
1) Why the sudden URGE to disclose this loss
2) How do i know the money went into the toxic products, any statement of account ?
3) where is all our money tied up with ? what kinda of investment am I in?
4) I take it Mr.Khaw has gone through the details with a fine tooth comb himself ?
5) What is left on hand right now — cash on hand ?
6) How much paper loss have we incurred
7) How much is totally lost – as in went up in smoke ?
8) How much cash did we have to begin with ?
Please tell me how my money is put to good use ?
No secret society is for the olden days. Now that we are the first world country. they are the licensed mobster.
Hi people, they will never review anything to you no matter how cos if they do, they are admitting their wrong doings and they cannot afford to tell the truth. From what we observed from the day the saga begins till now, they have been delaying and keep very mum about it and instead they send a couple of the ministers to appear with different answers or other diverting topics, don’t you people observe what is going on behind the scene?
Hi tiredsingaporean,
Oh, they have a name for it. It’s call ‘transparency’. Didn’t you know?
They have all the facts, numbers and details in their hands and everything is more than transparent to them. It very transparent to them, so transparent that they forgot to share them with us.
Oh yes, their name is call transparency and it is also referring tp people like us, to them we are all transparent, they cannot see us anymore bc they are damn way too high up there and busy counting their $$$ in their golden vault.
Isn’t this the same Khaw Boon Wan who once say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with NKF prior the golden peanut saga explosion ?
Yes, when things gone wrong, the master will delegate some of his servants to come out with all kinds of lame excuses and reasons. Funny thing is that after hearing of them, their topics don’t seem to relate much to each other in the end. Why? bc these are scripts for them to deliver from their master so they just blah blah blah . . . then disappeared, then awhile later, another one would come out to do another one prepared by the same master.
My ba**s are more transparent than investments. Talk cock!!
Forummers should be objective on Mr. Khaw’s message. The jist is this: trust the PAP government with your money and your money will be safer (relative to the rest of the world). Without the TC’s investments and past gains over the years, the TC funds will not be in as good shape as it is now. Yes, there are losses (as with all investments), but these losses will not rock the stability of the nation nor will it erode the quality of service provided to the people of Singapore.
Having means testing, bringing foreign talents to Singapore to do the jobs that Singaporeans do not wish to do, improving transportation for all walks of life, all these achievements and more are meant to help Singaporeans.
Instead of dismissing the good Minister’s remarks, why not step forward and join the grassroots for a start and contribute back to society with your good ideas? Singapore is very fortunate to have dedicated Ministers to serve and lead us or else Singapore would not have made so much progress over the last 40 plus years.
Not everything can be that “open” and “transparent”, as such details would not serve any purpose to the man on the streets. Since Singaporeans elect the PAP into office, the least that Singaporeans can do is to trust their judgement and leadership.
At this juncture, no one else is able to help Singapore through the financial tsunami except the PAP government. Not LZH, not TKL nor GMS, so I think instead of pointing to their flaws, we should all close ranks and support PAP through thick and thin.
Hi partisan,
don’t you get it? WE CANNOT WAIT TO VOTE THE PAP OUT BECAUSE THEY HAVE JUST SHOWN THEMSELVES AS UNTRUSTWORTHY? FORGET YOUR CALLS FOR UNITY. TOO LATE.
sorry for screaming. let me put it nicely in a PAP way. As Singapore is a democratic nation and holds free and fair elections, Singaporeans who feel frustrated at what they perceive as a severe lack of transparency and competency despite the high ministerial pay will be more tempted to vote the incumbent party out in the next elections.
“At this juncture, no one else is able to help Singapore through the financial tsunami except the PAP government.” typical PAP arrogance of “only we can do it nobody else can”. so much for your “objectivity” in this statement.
I am waiting by the way. The last time I checked, YOUR PAP government led us into the recession, and we were the first in Asia. We are the first in everything.
“26) partisan on December 19th, 2008 5.05 pm
“Singapore is very fortunate to have dedicated Ministers to serve and lead us or else Singapore would not have made so much progress over the last 40 plus years.”
Always arrogantly self-congratulating themselves FIRST (via proxy through you mr. partisan) without giving credit to so many common singaporeans who have been so ‘obediently’ toeing the line most of the time.
“Not everything can be that “open” and “transparent”, as such details would not serve any purpose to the man on the streets.”
We are not talking about national security or military secrets where the country’s interest is being compromised if they are made known.
We are talking about investments made using public funds. Are such details so super sensitive to the extent that the normal man in the street is not deserving to know. Whether it serves any purpose to the man on the streets, it is up to him to decide especially when he has a stake and is asked to contribute to the common fund, either directly or indirectly.
“At this juncture, no one else is able to help Singapore through the financial tsunami except the PAP government. Not LZH, not TKL nor GMS, so I think instead of pointing to their flaws, we should all close ranks and support PAP through thick and thin.”
I do like your unflinching propagandizing style. They have surely found their right man in you.
Yes, absolutely transparent in making uniquely singaporean a world class legal organ trading centre for the rich to buy organs with $$ from the poor with gst tax on sold organ. Wise move :) MP from malaysia… out of the box revenue from human organs from million dollar health minister.
Hi All
For info, the online petition was forwarded to the cor ordinating chairman of the 14 PAP town councils today.
Thanks for those who have supported me in the petition – a total of 126 of Singaporeans have signed the petition.
The petiiton will still run till 31 Dec 08. Those of you who want to support the cause can still sign here:
http://www.petitiononline.com/tc0502/petition.html
Thanks all.
#28) Ah Kim
“… We are talking about investments made using public funds. Are such details so super sensitive to the extent that the normal man in the street is not deserving to know…”
It’s not about whether the normal man in the street is deserving or not deserving to know. It’s whether it is serve any purpose. E.g., TC invested in Fund A. Some people like Fund A, some people don’t. So what is the TC going to do? There is an Chinese proverb: “Yong Ren Bu Yi, Yi Ren Bu Yong”. In other words, if you trust someone, then let him/her do his job; if you are suspicious of someone, then do not let him do his job. PAP TCs have been prudent with their money and this exposure to Lehman/ML is immaterial to the overall fund performance over the long run.
You will agree that investments are never like linear, straight line graph. So sometimes you make, sometimes you don’t. But as long as the money is in good hands, such as PAP’s TC, you do not have to worry about it. Besides, it’s not they never disclose – it’s just the some people like more details.
Reply to partisan who penned message 26:
> Singapore is very fortunate to have dedicated Ministers to serve
> and lead us or else Singapore would not have made so much
> progress over the last 40 plus years.
The old guard were the ones who deserve this accolade in building Singapore. Of that batch, only LKY and Jayakumar remains.
The new batch of ministers who took over within the last 8 years or so have been frankly underwhelming.
> Not everything can be that “open” and “transparent”, as such details
> would not serve any purpose to the man on the streets.
Why not? When public money is collected, accountability is expected.
Of course, if the amount lost or could be potentially lost is so large that they fear to reveal it because of the scale of embarrassment, then it suggests a large systemic problem has developed that needs to be fixed. If there is no pubic airing of this issue, how will the public know that the systemic weakness has been fixed?
> Since Singaporeans elect the PAP into office, the least that
> Singaporeans can do is to trust their judgement and leadership.
Trust has got to be earned.
After seeing how NKF, Mas Selamat, GIC/Temasek losses in US subprime banks, the Lehmen minibonds case (amongst numerous other events) have been handled, is it still reasonable to have unquestioned trust in the new leadership as compared with those of the old guard?
> At this juncture, no one else is able to help Singapore …
Precisely, unless we, Singaporeans are informed of the truth and vote wisely, we will continue to remain hostages of circumstance and some might even say, of design.
Rewarding poor performance and “covering up” mistakes is the best way to short circuit the feedback loop that would otherwise bring our system back to equilibrium.
What is in Fund A and why cannot tell us what is in it? And who the hell decides why Fund A is chosen in the first place?
Do we have a choice on who should be our Town Councillors? What is so good about them? Have they performed better than their counterparts in Hougang or Potong Pasir?
If the money is in such good hands with PAP TC then why are the S&C charges are always increasing compared to the Hougang and Potong Pasir TC?
If you are not the best in the land then don’t come here bragging about it. Your nose will just get longer.
Talking about secret society, I think it is time to scrutinise PAP Town Councils and local charities for their exposure to the Madoff Scandal. A number of Israeli charities have already shut down due to overwhelming exposure to the Madoff Scandal.
“It’s absolutely transparent because this is not a secret society activity where there is secrecy and so on.”
I believe Khaw Boon Wan because the millions dollar piles of TC money is literally transparent (invisible but it’s there anyway if you believe the gahmen) that we mortal man can’t see it. Only the Emperor and his subjects agree it is there all along because they expect the gullible citizen to believe too. Singapore citizen is so to smoke and hookwinked.
Not a secret society ? Khaw Boon Wan, isn’t you swore to oath to serve the Emperor of singapore ? Isn’t our emperor has been living and operating in secrecy all along ?
Absolute transparency! Gosh. Does he know the meaning of the word “absolute”? It means that all the accounting books of the TC are thrown open to public scrutiny. The real truth is that TC books are far far from being transparent. After so many months of our digging, only the most superficial layer is exposed. So how can he claim to be absolutely transparent when he knows that it is utterly untrue???
oh, you mean
no secret society = transparency?
can clearify or nots? i no no wor.
#26, I did vote for them!!! They just walk over like many other area….If they dare, take away the GRC system then you will see if really many support behind them!
My gut feeling is that there are more skeletons in the cupboard. Unless the skeletons are also transparent (invisible to us), there is absolutely no way the TC can reveal all without political repercussion.
I there is transparency,
SO TELL ME,
What other risky investments did town councils invest in? (this information is not found on any financial statements published to date)
Are the Town Councils aware of the super high risk and low returns when putting millions of public money into the mini-bonds?
If they are aware of this, why make the bad decision of gambling public money into super high risk and low returns?
Where are the answers?
Should I be “thankful” that you put $16 million of public money in there and not $16 billion?
What other risky investments were public money put into?
Where are the answers?
Just let the Town Council officials meet the residents in a town hall
setting and explain, discuss, meet the residents and exchange ideas
without the presence of PAP political leaders.
The TC and the residence should meet face-to face regularly and not
sending letters or using those waste-of-money TC magazines(which
mostly thrown into the rubbish bin)as a medium for a frank discussion
on important subjects that interests the residence.This dialogue should
not be apolitical.
Then open the book for all residents to see. Very layman terms just say line by line what was invested? dont go round and round till we are confused.
$1 invested in abc = now 0.50 cents
$1 invested in xyz = now o.30 cents
Total $2 invested , we only have 0.80 cents. we lost $1.20. simple or not! do i need to teach all the bright sparks.
Also let us have the names of the commitee members who make decision on the investment. Are there any conflict of interest?
Show us you are transparent now.
The most important question to me is this:
The money lost is public money.
The town councils invested in risky products.
Investors too have invested in such products.
But the investors are seeking all ways to retrieve the money.
The question for Khaw Boon Wan and all TCs is: Are you also going to do everything you can to get the money back?
Or are you writing it off – all $16 million – as “bad investments”?
That is one question which has still not been answered.
partisan (#31),
Trust PAP? If you are the head of CPIB, would you dig up old books to verify that PAP is indeed a clean government? Show me verified evidence</b. that PAP is clean and not the lack of incriminating evidence, then I may trust PAP. The only situation where one should put up faith is when it comes to God, not politics because no man is immune is temptation.
“Absolutely transparent”, Minister. Well if that’s how Singapore is run, lets have the “Freedom of Information” or FOI act in place. Lets not hide behind the OSA or Official Secrets Act. When in comes to defence and military secrets we have no grudge. Lets be transparent then, let Ministers and MPs declare their assets and income for all to see. Let there be no assumptions in the so call subsidy of HDB flats. Lets have a conflict of interest policy in place and let the people be the judge and not some related politician. Lets have the detailed accounts of the TC, Temasek and GIC. Till all this is done, don’t even bother trying to pull the wool over over heads as you have done over the years.
Please Mr Khaw, please do not simply yell that it is absolutely transparent when you know full well that the TCs are still keeping all the “lost” secrets. Are you hoping that by claiming repeatedly again and again that the TCs are transparent then the people will come to believe your claim? Please just open up the TC accounting books for all to see for ourselves how much other “investments” your TCs have lost.
Do not let the TCs keep these secrets just like mini Temaseks.
I can imagine if this had happened in opposition TC…
Up to this day, the questions in the emails that we sent to TCs to ask about the details of investments were not replied.
If all details are in the TC annual report, the TC chairman should at least have the courtesy of replying to the email.
Until we get the answers to our questions, TRANSPARENCY? I don’t think so.
I tot Khaw Boon Wan is different from other PAP Ministers, but now I have different view on him after he speak this kind of irresponsible words. That make him nothing but the same kind of PAP Ministers, to hide their mistakes and boost their good works to get huge credits from a small matters.
Every human action contains some degree of secrecy. We know, and you know that. Stop insisting that there’s transparency, show it. Action speaks louder than words.