should be prester town council until they spill out everything?

but can we do next?

It’s a joke

To those that have received crap from their town councils / MPS, perhaps you should enlarge the replies and post them on the noticeboards in your estates. The residents have a right to know. :-)

so i ask singaporeans, why did you vote these people in, who are unwilling to be accountable to your queries?

We noted that the questions that you are asking are similar questions circulated to all the Town Councils.

It seems that the concerned parties in TCs have received the queries and have come together to devise similar non-answer responses to these queries. They have agreed to put a concerted effort to brush it aside as long as possible.

You can sense their impatience in their replies as they are really bugged by the sudden surge of queries. They are not used to it when people are united in their effort to find the truth.

They are uncomfortable with people acting collectively. There are really things to hide.

The skeletons are getting bigger.

Our govt is always changing. Their tactics evolve:
ISA -> sue -> let’s move on -> see things in perspective -> illegal aka no permit -> contempt of court -> don’t politicise the issue! Probably now using the latest tactic to taiji the requests for info…

u vote for us….so don’t question our decision…. just follow and don’t ask so much….for more good years

A friend in need is a friend indeed. Time to shout Merdeka?

Yes, let’s put the pressure on the PAP Town Councils to come clean on these toxic investments. I may live in a private apartment, but that does not mean that I don’t live in Singapore and whatever happens in Town Councils that oversees HDB apartments is of no concern of mine.

Such ‘divide and conquer’ tactics just won’t cut it when ‘We are Singapore’ is sung every National Day.

Cynthia Phua’s reply on behalf of Aljunied TC caught my interest. Apparently, the person who sent the email lives in private property, and thus the sinking funds and S&C charges are not of their direct concern.

While this does not eliminate the right for the resident to ask on his fellow citizens’ behalf, I find it an interestingly subtle method to dilute the strength of his arguments. The TC is like saying, well, thanks for your interest, but that’s not your problem; we are not responsible or accountable to you. And mind you, that’s true in some ways.

BTW, I think TOC should sparingly use the “Breaking News” line. To begin with, this news is pretty much expected, and even CNN doesn’t report it as “breaking” (at least not a moment ago when I checked). Overuse of it will cause it to lose its significance.

This is Singapore. Where responsibility is something to push around, and leadership is a job, and accountability is a mirage in the desert.

I’m currently studying in the UK now. One major item in the news recently is the death of Baby P (he cannot be named), from the abuse of his parents. The social workers had failed to spot this abuse before it is too late.

Two members of the Town Council of the district that Baby P lives in has resigned. The director of children’s services of the council just resigned today.

In India, the home minister has resigned, while the national security advisor, has offered to do the same.

In Japan not too long ago, the Defence minister forfeited some pay, sacked his navy chief, and punished other stuff when a Japan navy ship ran into, and sunk a fishing boat.

Now i’m not saying we should sack people for every mistake that their subordinates make. But when major issues come up, it’d be nice if our elected leaders can take charge, and take some (or at least appear to) responsibility for once. (e.g. mas selamat, mini bonds) Compared with these countries, we’re third world by far.

#10,
I would disagree, when you say that it is “true in some ways” that the TC is not accountable to the person because he lives in a private property and so does not pay S&C charges.

That guy has voted (or not) for the party, and is part of the constituency. The MP’s responsibility is to ALL in the constituency, and not just those who stay in the HDBs, or those who pay S&C charges. It’s not a subtle way of diluting his argument, it’s blatant and gives you an insight into how they think of their job. and I use the word job because it IS just a job to them.

It’s really quite nauseating, frankly.

aiyoyo

is it school holidays and no one at home to answer emails???

dont find the handphone numbers of those TC PEOPLE on the website hor,

else direct contact easy, correct???

aiyoyo

This is the reply I got from Pasir Ris-Punggol Town Council Chairman today.

“I refer to your email dated 26/11/08.

I would like to assure you that the Town Council exercises prudence by investing its funds in a diversified portfolio which seeks to balance returns and risks. The key objective of our investment is to generate a reasonably healthy return that offsets the rate of inflation and increase the overall value of the fund.

The Town Council has invested its funds in fixed deposits, government bonds, statutory bonds and corporate bonds which generates a healthy return over a period of time. The average annual investment income and returns over the last five years are $4.3M and 3.4% respectively. For more information, you may wish to read our annual report as well as the frequently asked questions which are available on our website (www.prpg-tc.org.sg).

Going forth, the Town Council will take pragmatic and prudent approach in managing the Town Council’s fund . “

It is partly the people’s fault that it has come to this stage now. We have never questioned, never push hard enough for answers and let things slip to such an extend today, whereby our leaders are not used to being answerable to us.

It is high time we shed the forgetful image and ask them to respect the people who voted them in, to actually remember that it is a right that we voters have, instead of a privilege.

Ya the TCs investment fiasco lloked like a hot political topic for all Singaporeans.

Not only have they betrayed our trust in them as a corruption-free governance but also we felt left out of any decision at the top.

If you see the way we are governed, little discussion is held with the men on the street. Policies are pushed through sometimes even after speaking with the ground e.g. Serangoon Gardens workers’ dorm and the IRs.

Little wonder that the public avoided all forms of forum talks that the govt has initiated. It seems that decisions are already make and such forums only serve to ease the public outcry for political discussion.

Our politicians have all along performed poorly when they come out to talk t o the meida or public. Maybe years of helming top political office in ivory towers have hindered their ground performance with the people.

Scholars and educated officers have all alot stay very aloof and detached from the commoners. They may even not know the aspirations and sufferings of the people on the ground as their path is so much different from ours.

Singaporeans now need to realise that scholars and CEOs though well-schooled and posh-looking may not be the ideal candidate for political office. They may be good at speaking at conventions or even helm a company but when it comes to talking to the ground they may be clueless.

I hope that LSL will start to think of how to select the next crop of MPs for the soon-coming election.

All these answers leave a lot of questions. Besides details of the investment, who were the broking forms involved, who were the advisers,what was the commission paid etc. These details will reveal any patterns and trends which can be further scrutinised for any abnormal activity. I have lost trust in them and no longer believe theie claims until I can see the proof for myself. If there is nothing to hide why the reluctance to open the books. As usual its a merry go round with non-answers.

aiyoyo

is it going to be a merry xmas 2008 for commoners?

aiyoyo

TOC

Are the answers to the qns posed available in the annual reports or on the official websites? And are the ARs easily accessible?

If they are, then response 2 is fair.

Are the answers to the qns posed available in the annual reports or on the official websites? And are the ARs easily accessible? If they are, then response 2 is fair. – A Tan

Response #2 is not fair because the AR do not answer the questions directly and are not easily comprehensible for the untrained eye. The Town Council is accountable to ordinary residents, not sophisticated investors.

I think Cynthia Phua Aljunied GRC should not reply this kind of replied. Like me I also live in private property, that doesn’t means that I don’t have the right to ask about TC investment. We are Singapore Citizens and we hold one vote in our hand to vote in general election.

The way the three letters replied by the TC are greatly appreciated of their time and effort to replied us, but without any contents of explaining to us Citizen regarding of the TC investment and any more toxic investments are not mention. Seem like 4 weeks are not enough time for PAP TC to do any cover up job for the toxic investments to open tranparent to Singapore Citizens. That why they are playing delay tactics to buy more time is it? Don’t tell us that they don’t have any pass auditing and finacial account to show us instead.

Worse of all to the rest of the 11 PAP TC, don’t even have the responsibilities to reply our quiries. How can we entrust them to run millions of dollars of Sinking Fund for us without any care of replying Citizens worry?

I also reallised that our PM have not really spoke out about the TC matters and ensure or instruct PAP TC to give Singapore Citizen an answers or solutions, comparing to the death of the lawyer in India. He spoke out immediately within a week, but how about this TC investments. Silence means what??????

And what our beloved President do? I really don’t understand why do we need a President. Can anyone enlighten me actually what our President role in Singapore, what are his scope of works?

[...] Councils Lose $12M Public Funds – TOC: Residents query but PAP town councils keep mum – TOC: Town council investments: Annual reports do not answer [...]

Q: Dear Sir… How much did town councils loose in the failed structured products?
A: PAP Town councils have not mis-managed public funds …

Q: Oh what I mean was…. How much did town councils loose in the failed structured products?
A: PAP Town councils are financially secured …

Q: Yes.. But what we want to know is how much did town councils loose in the failed structured products?
A: PAP Town councils have been prudent becos they have a responisbility to residents …

I want to eat roti prata and you keep telling me that you don’t sell chicken rice

With reference to Aljunied Town Council (repost with edit)

Aljunied Town Council – Capital guaranteed funds have no exposure to credit-linked notes since end September 08
By Jeffrey Chua, Secretary, Aljunied Town Council
http://www.aljuniedgrc.sg/newweb/news.php

On 16 September 2008, we reviewed and were informed that our portfolio exposure to Lehman bonds was assessed at approximately 0.27% or $120,000 at most through the unit trust holdings. DBSAM had since divested out of the position and as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes. UOBAM has confirmed that our funds invested by them have no exposure to Lehman Brothers.

ATC’s fund managers had brought LB minibonds.

LB announced its intent to file for Chapter 11 on 15 Sep 2008.
http://www.lehman.com/press/pdf_2008/091508_lbhi_chapter11_announce.pdf

So, by 30 Sep 2008, how much money was recovered when it “divested out of the position”?

Refer to:
“On 16 September 2008, we reviewed and were informed that our portfolio exposure to LEHMAN BONDS was assessed at approximately 0.27% or $120,000 at most through the unit trust holdings. DBSAM had since divested out of the position and as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes. UOBAM has confirmed that our funds invested by them have no exposure to Lehman Brothers.”

Are LEHMAN BONDS same as Minibond series issued by Minibond P L? Jeffrey Chua could not even rightly address the issue and seems to me that he didn’t do his homework having comprehended that he might not have the knowledge of the difference of the two. Btw, why didn’t he ask his fund manager?

Again on:
“……..On 16 September 2008, we reviewed and were informed that our portfolio exposure to LEHMAN BONDS was assessed at approximately 0.27% or $120,000 at most through the unit trust holdings. DBSAM had since divested out of the position and as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes…..”

“LEHMAN BONDS was assessed on 16 Sep 08 and had since divested out of the position”
Could it be divested out of the position?

“as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes.”
What does it mean? ATC had exposure to Lehman or other credit lined notes before 30 Sep 08?

So, by 30 Sep 2008, how much money was recovered when it “divested out of the position”?

Joe, I wonder if that $120,000 at most is the answer you are looking for.

Kevin, I wonder if that ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes will cover your question.

To me, the ATC statement is a right step forward. However, it also highlight the level of investment details missing in the Annual Report.

Oh yes, i’m waiting to get a reply by Sembawang TC.
No news yet.
Still waiting…………

Hi Sad (#17)

You raised a good point…

Now we also want to know if there were any interested party transactions i.e. buying of investment products through related/interested parties that could possibly swayed the decision to invest in such highly-risky product vs FDs.

Isn’t it expected that your requests will be tai-chi-ed around.. until its lost and forgotten?

“Accounting for town councils’ investments – do your part – On November 25th, TOC urged readers to write in to the town councils’ chairpersons, using a template letter, to enquire about the town councils’ investments.”

I wrote a comment on this artilce that “SO what if Mah Bow Tan makes a statement to Sunday Times to the effect that – “Each town council has the duty to explain to its residents how it invests its funds, what is its philosophy, what are the risks it takes”. MBT does not represent anything. Are you expecting the TCs to jump and provide you information on request just on the basis of MBT statement in the ST?”

In your article today, this is precisely what is happening: (i) 22 letters and only 3 replies. (ii) these replies are NON replies where you have analyzed as “The first reply is disingenuous; it answers nothing. The second is remarkably incomplete. The third well, is “re-directed” to the finance department.”

Next step as SGcynic #6 wrote, it could be “don’t politicise the issue!”

You should perhaps chart how much of the questions in your template have been answered. I am really sceptical if Singaporeans will ever get any answers to even a fraction of the questions posed in your templates.

Weija #11 wrote – “Now i’m not saying we should sack people for every mistake that their subordinates make. But when major issues come up, it’d be nice if our elected leaders can take charge, and take some (or at least appear to) responsibility for once. (e.g. mas selamat, mini bonds) Compared with these countries, we’re third world by far.”

I wouldn’t expect any accountability from the current team of overpaid million dollar salaried leaders. They have the mainstream media expounding their glories period. It will be wishful thinking to expect them to be accountable and resign for the minibond fiasco when one of them had the cheek chastise Singaporeans that they should be thankful instead.

Weija #12 – is correct. “That guy has voted (or not) for the party, and is part of the constituency” – they are accountable to all Singaporeans as this is public funds. In the 1st place, the full information should be available to the public and transparent, in which case is NOT. This again show how arrogant the person who made this response is.

Richard Tan #21 “And what our beloved President do? I really don’t understand why do we need a President. Can anyone enlighten me actually what our President role in Singapore, what are his scope of works?” – Kissing babies, go around the world. Collect million dollars of salary each month. What do you expect from the mamah who was chosen by the PAP.

(Ernest) #23 – “I want to eat roti prata and you keep telling me that you don’t sell chicken rice” – that’s precisely what the government is good at doing. They think that they are still dealing with a bunch of idiots. We are instead dealing with a bunch of incompetants.

I have a few basic accounting questions to clarify (i am a layman brudder):

1. I looked at financial reports,
am i correct to say they do not tell where money has went to , for example, to
ABC Financial institution or to ABC Pte Ltd?

I think so. Hope someone can confirm this understanding is correct.

2. Can the management accounting info be disclosed?

regards
Selamat wong – I am accountable but may not be responsible, where may not = may.

i am also appalled by the opposition’s lack of ammunition in this issue.

The town council CANNOT refuse a reply because you are currently living in PRIVATE HOUSING:

1. Town councils are part of the government. If they mismanage their funds and make irrecoverable losses, the government has to bail them out with taxpayers’ money. Therefore, as a taxpayer, you have the right to know how they manage the funds.

2. Unless you and your family have been living in private property your entire lives, you have at one point or another lived in HDB flats and therefore contributed to the $2 billion fund that the town councils have in total.

3. The performance of the MP is based partly on how he well runs the town council. When Bukit Gombak SMC was held by SDP’s Ling How Doong in the 90s, one of the main grouses of the residents was that he didn’t manage the town council well. He was voted out in the next election. Therefore as a voter, you have the right to know how the town council manage their funds so that you can determine the performance of your MP.

Besides the TCs, how about our beloved CPF? Doesn’t the CPF also uses our contributions for investments?

retire , we wanna

THE LONGER IT DRAGS,
ITS COMMONSENSE THAT IT SERVES THEM NO GOOD AT ALL.
‘A’ TEAM MEANS THE PEOPLE EXPECT ‘A’ TEAM STANDARD AND RESPONSE..
PROBLEM IS WHERE PEOPLE HIGHLY PAID ARE EMPLOYED FOR.
SHOW ME THE MONEY , AS IN , SHOW US YOUR CAPABILITY AND IMPRESS US, NOT DISILLUSION ME, I HOPE.

In fairness, PAP town councils have done a credible job of keeping our estates in order and providing a pleasant environment to stay.

We are encouraged to pore over the annual accounts of oppositions and maybe because of the higher scrutiny, they end up being more prudent with their sinking funds. For the PAP town councils, we trust them wholeheartedly. This is not healthy.

By asking tough questions and having healthy discussions, some mistakes can be pre-empted before they become serious. That is the value of being active citizens.

They keep mouths shut better…
open only, offer lame reasons.

Better wait till eventually get voted out in one of the future GE…

aiyoyo

checking on non PEOPLE account,

while still not direct answer on their own PEOPLE accounts,

why huh? cant get the logic leh

aiyoyo

Nope.. these comments are not made to make the seniors look like fools. It seems to be a tactic to lead you to the dead-end road… You can ask but doesn’t mean you Will get the Answers you want….

When will the electorate understand that there is just no Accountability on thier part? If we continue to accept this sort of answers and yet vote them, we can only blame ourselves. I do hope however, that there is now an awakening.

So PLEASE WAKE UP SINGAPORE !

Why are TCs playing hide and seek, catch-me-if-u-can? Don’t ask Don’t tell but Do ask also Don’t tell. The answer can only be that there’s probably more skeletons in the closets, like real and paper losses in stocks and shares. So the closets must therefore not be fully open.

The Town Council Act legislates that sinking funds not immediately required for maintenance expenditures be kept in specific funds and earmarked for future uses. Implicit in this is that whatever TCs do with the funds, the principal sums MUST STAY IN TACT. This must mean that investing any sinking funds in the interim before use in non-principal guaranteed instruments where principal sums are not preserved is PROHIBITED. The Act empowers TCs specifically to perform estate management as its primary role and do other things incidental to this role. The only authority in the TC Act given to TCs to invest is a generic one given to all statutory boards under the Interpretation Act. This authority for a statutory board like a TC to invest “as it deem fits” must be taken as incidental, and not in addition, to its primary role which for a TC is very clearly stated in the TC Act to be that of estate mangement. The fact that there is no specific role and empowerment in the TC Act in fund investment adds further weight to this reasoning. By the same reasoning, any directives from the Minister in charge like the 35% limit on investing in non-governement papers must be in line with, and not supersede, the TC Act and hence does not give a TC a carte blanche to go free and easy in investing sinking funds in ways which put the principal sums at risk.

I am a private condo owner in an estate, one of many run by a large RE group. I just received a circular which they have sent to all owners declaring the safety of the sinking funds under the charge which are kept in bank deposits which they emphasised are govt-guaranteed. I believe that this is the common practice for most properly-run condo estates and exemplifies the right financial behaviour of estate managers. It is not the resposibility or business of an estate manager including TCs to maximise returns on funds specifically collected for a specific purpose. They merely have to ensure that the funds do no remain idle in the banks and are earning interest at prevailing rates of the day.

what huh?

ah gong and ah mah uneducated may not know how to interprete all the bombastic words in the FI product contract or prospectus.

I would like to believe that our TC investment fund manager would Know what is the kind of product he is SELLING ?
I would like to believe that our TC chief Understood fully what he was investing?
I would like to believe that our TC chief Approved what his fund manager invested?

I would like to believe…..many thingies…..

Sometimes, its best not to invest at all than to invest in high risk products.

Where is the risk mitigation knowing the risk exposure?

Why not play it safe?

Afterall, ……custodian….

aiyoyo

21st century liao

still playing hide & seek, ‘catching’ ??

aiyoyo

Aiyoh Weijia
You cannot expect our Minister to resign like in Japan or India or any other country in the world. The Minister in Japan (which is a very rich country) earns only 1.2% of the pay of that of our Minister. So for a Minister there to resign means only a small loss of his salary. In contrast, the Singapore Minister would be losing a huge bonanza that he would never hope to earn in any other job in his whole life-time. This, my dear friend, is surely a very important reason for the Singapore Minister to keep his job at all cost.

TW ‘MAS’ equivalent chief resigned lor. cannot take the heat of lehman thongie.

There you see, the more you people dig deeper, the more they will come out with no answers or answers that are not answering to what we asked. Now all the PAP MPs have no other alternatives but to play tai chi or passing boleh here and there to avoid being the target.

Since when in Singapore’s history, has they government owned up to ANY mistakes on their part?

All they know, is to keep giving us all, Bitter Pills and or ‘Medicines’, while they jac up their salaries.

Sure they keep the economy humming, but humming for who? Are we all humming away and peachy as the years go by?

It was a week and only 22 TOC readers wrote to the TCs?

Accounting for town councils’ investments – do your part
Zheng Xi in response to my comments wrote -

“The fear and apathy you highlighted is precisely the reason why we need to break out of this viscious cycle by asking these questions. And if even a handful of people like those who have already sent the letter and notified TOC lead by example and show there are no repercussions to exercising our democratic rights, it will go some way, if only a small way, in dispelling the fear and apathy you speak of.
If we get answers, we are empowered. If we don’t, we have even more reason to keep asking them until they do, until their silence becomes deafening, and finally damning.”

Please read Yawning Bread blog on “The government wants active citizens so that they can harass them” – so why provide them with the full information for potential future harassment. What makes you think they have not started to work on it.

Will we ever get any answers from the TC’s? Your guess is as good as mine.

Has anybody asked non-PAP Town Councils? What are their responses? Perhaps they did with full account? Please pardon my ignorance if they did disclose.

#53) Khirsah,

I think it depends on what is understood as Disclosure.

Full Disclosure = Transparency.

But what is full disclosure? what is the definition of the definition of Transparency?

something to think about?

Is a Financial Statement = Full Transparency? We need Accounting professional to confirm.

Anyways, to me, a financial statement does not tell me where and how much is invested. It is a very high level document and very summarised. From it, I cannot see if the investment is in High Risk products. I cannot see at what time what transaction was conducted. I cannot see where money gone to or received from who.

But then I am just a layman brudder.

I hope accounting professional or finance profession can step forward and advise us.

last but not least, what does it imply about Singapore and Singaporeans if they do not disclose at the end of the day? Are democrats (citizens of a democracy) responsible for the situation in any way?

Its Time.

Hmm… a reply that throws up even more questions…

“On 16 September 2008, we reviewed and were informed that our portfolio exposure to Lehman bonds was assessed at approximately 0.27% or $120,000 at most through the unit trust holdings. DBSAM had since divested out of the position and as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes. UOBAM has confirmed that our funds invested by them have no exposure to Lehman Brothers.”

Lehman Brothers filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection on September 15. The very next day, the Aljunied TC had obtained the reviewed results of its porfolio. Shows that they had indeed walked in with their eyes wide open, and that they probably had asked for a review when Lehman was in trouble, that DBSAM was able to revert on the day they did.

So, On 16 September 2008, Aljunied TC’s portfolio exposure to Lehman bonds was assessed at $120,000 at most. Conservatively or optimistically? So, AT MOST, you had $120,000 LEFT. From an initial investment of how much?

Yes, $120,000 was approximately only 0.27% of your total portfolio, but the initial Lehman exposure could have been a few % of your total portfolio, yes?

So, when DBSAM finally divested out of the Leman positions, how much of the assessed $120,000 did Aljunied TC get back? So what was the loss from your initial Lehman exposure?

If Town Councils cannot answer simple questions like these, then focus on your core competency. Stop playing with OUR money. Since you cannot be held accountable, you can not hold the responsibility of managing funds.

….WHAT YOU GONNA DO WHEN THE HULKAMANIA RUNS WILD ON YOU?

hee hee heee… just kidding…..

What I really meant was

what are we gonna do if they don’t reply us?

This and many many other questions?

This is singapore?

Hope foreigners don’t visit this website and get wrong impression of spore.

I mailed to Sembawang GRC. No reply. Not even a ‘thanks for your mail we’ll reply you soon’

Hi #54 TDDW,

I’m just wondering if anybody has asked the non-PAP TC, i.e. Hougang and Potong Pasir, about the way their sinking funds are managed. I think it will do TOC some good to reflect their reply/non-reply as well, if available. The bigger picture here is “How are our TC funds managed?” and not “How PAP TC manage our funds?”

The MAIN REASON for delay is hoping that the public will forget ..buying time until the Storm cloud pass over … And The famous pharse is “Let’s Move On” … since we the people are all dump asses and the “A” TEAM KNOWS BEST; so LET MOVE ON !!!!

They said that Singaporeans lost alot of $ in the mini bonds. Do you guys know that alot of Indonesians park their $ in Singapore. cos they trust us. Do you know how much they lost ?

aiyoyo

see the oil price down and down (think current <=45usd/barrel)

hope we see our electric bills can also down and down soon..

aiyoyo

The S Times published Dr Teo’s reply to reader’s letter in the Forum page.

Still no specific reply to the questions raised by the public.

as usual playing tai chi again, nothing new from these PAPees.

[...] Councils Lose $12M Public Funds – TOC: Residents query but PAP town councils keep mum – TOC: Town council investments: Annual reports do not answer [...]

STILL NO ANSWER ???? PRETEND NOTHING HAPPENED??? THE ANGER OF THE PEOPLE HAS DIED OFF??? WHERE IS OUR MONEY?

Out of the 22 letters sent out to the 13 TCs, any replies from the TC that MBT is in charge of?

If there is none even from his own TC, you think the rest of the TCs are going to reply?

It has been a while since this issue was raised. Any updates on the number of replies since?