“, indicating that our disclosures are and will be consistent with Corporate Governance Standards”

Wah Epic Fail! Since when did Town Council become a “Corporate” business?

You voted for this? Well Done!

Dr Magad so careless ar.. Email also can send wrongly wor..

He must be feeling the pain now.
Click send button too fast.
He sure get scolding from the mysterious Minister.

Bonus.. Gone with the wind..

hongjun

We have an Extraordinary Super Talent who don’t even know how to use email and is so careless with such an important matter? Another world first!

I can’t believe this.

Perhaps Singapore’s Watergate in the making?

I can’t believe this. or then again, unfortunately I can.

With reference to Pasir Ris – Punggol Town Council.

FAQ on Town Council Investment (dated 27 Nov 2008)
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/uploads/FAQ1.pdf

Our Newsroom / FAQ Section:
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/index.php?page=faq-on-town-council-investments

The FAQ document was created on Friday 28,November,2008 12:04:04 PM SGT (at the time of this posting).

Annual Report & Financial Statements for 1 April 2007 – 31 March 2008:
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/uploads/Annual%20report%200708.pdf

The above file was created on Monday 17,November,2008 01:52:15 PM SGT. The source of the PDF seems to be “Microsoft Word – AR0708_1.doc”.

Our Newsroom / Annual Reports Section:
http://www.prpg-tc.org.sg/cms/index.php?page=annual-reports

From the Annual Report FY07/08 (Page 29) for the Year ended 31 MARCH 2008:

Under the section of Cash Flows from Investing Activities:

Net Cash generated (used in)/from Investing Activities from 01/04/07 to 31/03/08 = S$ (16,522,978)

Net Cash generated (used in)/from Investing Activities from 01/04/06 to 31/03/07 = $16,025,076

Basically, net cash generated from investing activities for FY 06/07 was wiped out in FY07/08.

If this is true, then its obviously shows that the MP is secretly giving his off-the-record instruction to the TC to disregard the citizens’ complaints into their illegal doings. The citizens have every rights to know the truth of where and how our monies are being used. How can the TCs misused our monies and still can hide from the people of singapore?

Why is anyone surprised ??
What is new ??

Come on these are brilliant scholars are very “Net” savvy.

Or is it?

This is a disaster

Red Alert , Red Alert

The party should contact an educator in immediately.

The tender will be called soon.

Some educator is going to hit the jackpot for a few million dollars.

The tender is for :

Daily tution class on how to use the Internet for all brilliant scholars.

Daily tution on how to use e-mail

How to charge internet services by providing bare minimum services i.e how to make money

Otherwise why have this class.

P.S I know who will win the tender

5) Weijia “Perhaps Singapore’s Watergate in the making?”

Don’t hold your breath. ST journalists are unlike their Washington Post peers. They could not pursue this story as vigorously as the Americans without fear of crippling.law suit.

Ya this could be the major hiccup that may bring down the ruling party.

It is plain for allt o see that there is alot of cover up at the highest office.

I am unsure whether our promise of a corruption-free transparent govt still stands ground here.

Mr Magad may have nail his own political demise not unlike that of Mr Ong Teng Cheong. By sending out this email, he has alot to explain which I know he won’t.

Generally, it shows that there are alot of problem in the govt reporting channel here.

Do TCs report to the minister (i.e. Mr Bah Bow Tan) or the GRC minister Mr Teo Chee Yuan (Minister for Defence)? The upward reporting channel after Mr Teo seems ambiguous. For all we know, they may not have anyone to report up to after Mr Teo which is a very serious mistake as they can then do anything they want at the TC level. So long as TC is able to take care of the maintenance of their estate, how they use their funds is a very TC internal issue which no one, even the S & C payer, can question.

Unless the PM steps in to resolve this issue, this may be the hottest item in town since Selamat’s infamous escape.

its a genuine mistake. we are not going to get into a culture of witch-hunting.

let’s move on.

I wonder what would be LHL’s reaction when he sees this report?

aiyoyo

why like that huh?

“we will NOT disclose any further details beyond what we have already uploaded on-line”

next time how huh?

can commoners do likewise huh?

aiyoyo

[...] y’all should read this…you see, this is what happens when there aren’t checks and balances.  Although this [...]

This just confirms our suspicions that the elites have something to hide all along and they have been playing around with us. Asking us to query the TCs and on the other hand instructing the TCs not to reveal any details.

But I’m glad this email booboo came out. It just shows that the people have been double-crossed by these elites. Hope the 66% that voted them in can wake up now.

It is obvious the Town Councillers are all sqirming in their seats and trying various ways to wiggle out of this uncomfortable situation. By giving out less explanation and answers, they hope that the issue will be forgotten over time. If this is the behaviour of our Ministers, MPs and Town Councillers, I am truly sad.

Every body can make mistakes on a personal level, corporate level and in government. The first honest thing to do is to be transperant, be responsible and be accountable for what has gone wrong. One should learn from the expeience, analyse it thoroughly and put in checks and balances, to make sure the same debacle have little chance of hapening again.

The true mark of leadership is courage to stand up and face a challenge head on and admit someting have gone seriously wrong and take responsibility for it. I have yet to see our leaders walk their talk.

The incompetence of the PAP elite is begining to show. All these years, we have been lecutured by LKY and his lackeys about how brilliant his team is. We now know it was all a farce. This is the begining of the end for the PAP.

I believe they have a legal reason that the statute protects them for any information pertaining to sensitive issues does not have to be replied. perhaps some one out there as a legal adviser can explain the rational behaviour of TC.

The fund is from public and they have the responsibility to answer the residents but here what are the TC legal aspect and protection and lets find out that first before anyone can confirm they should / should not reply to residents enquiry.

Always find what the law says before we think they are wrong?

WHAT CANNOT DISCLOSE DETAILS !!!!!! THIS IS BULLSHIT !!!!!!!!! HEADS MUST ROLLL >>>>TAKE RESPONSIBILITY DAMM IT !!!!!!!!!!! All those involved in this crap cannot expect incompetence to be rewarded

I agree with MicMac on (8): what’s new?

As I have also commented on the post on hypotheticals, many skeletons may already have been dissolved in acid bath. Those stumbled upon like this, or too big to hide like Mas Selamat, there will be a confluence of factors to explain them away. Others yet undiscovered will be put away quietly.

Wise up to the tactics of the ruling party.

Joe, thanks for the 07-08 report on Pasir Ris. It was created on 17th Nov 2008 at close to 2pm.

It’s interesting to note on pg 47 that fixed deposits earned them an effective weighted average interest of 2.8% for 07/08 and 3.2% for 06/07, way above the paltry 0.9% quoted by Teo Ho Pin.

DEAR MINSTER MAH,

I feel sorry for you for being insulted by the MP so blatantly! I am sure if you have a say these days, this would never have happened. We trust you being a storng advocate for transparency. Unfortunately you are no longer in charge.

Sigh…

This drives home the point that PAP believes that once we have voted them in, they have absolute power and can do what they like in the following 5 years while they are in power. Hence, my fellow 66.6% Singaporeans, treasure your vote and choose wisely. Please do not be like the Thai peasants where votes can be bought.

There will still be future disclosures in their vibe magazine. It is unfortunate that some of our MPs are not net savvy enough to realize they are sending emails to wrong persons. I think we should wait for the disclosures to come out in Vibe before making a mountain out of a molehill. Sometimes I think the TOC, despite all its argument of objectiveness, engages in sensationalism.

Roland I really appreciate you to expose this email to let Singaporean know how our High Paid Ministers giving this irresponsible instruction to TC. This means PAP Ministers are also involve in this TC investment.

But Roland Soh, you better keep a softcopy of this email and sent it to relevant people to witness this email. Beware ISD may go to you to retrieve this email and destory it and arrest you.

Roland please take care. Just to let you take precaution, we never know how dirty is our PAP leaders.

Pls retain the original email so that u can proof that the email (through its email header) can be traced to the rightful mail server. This is important because the TC folks can claim that this email is a malicious email sent on their default and then they will start a wild witch hunt and start threatening everyone with lawsuits.

Keep the email, don’t delete it. Get an independent party to verify the email and ask the TC and the minister to explain why such instructions are relayed in times like this.

Dr Teo today replied to my letter published last week in Today paper.

The link is found here: http://www.todayonline.com/articles/291047.asp

There isn’t much that he has answered to my call for transparency and a more detailed reporting of our TC’s investment.

It’s the usual politically correct routine reply.

There will still be future disclosures in their vibe magazine. I think we should wait for the disclosures to come out in Vibe before making a mountain out of a molehill. – pmg (#23)

to pmg: I sense you have blind faith in the PAP here. Because of your blind faith, you seek to discredit ToC by implying it is not objective while you do not realise that sensationalism and objectivity are not necessarily contradictory to each other.

I have been watching this unfold as an interested Singaporean although where I live, I’m not under the TC ambit. HDB residents should act in unison, if necessary organise themselves at Speakers Corner , form a committee and followed with a signed petition to the Organising Chairman for the TCs, MP Teo HP. to meet with this committee and with specific demands. The protests and indignations of the residents have been heard though not all have been answered to satisfaction. Let’s now act constructively and with the future in mind. Suggest that the petition cover demands on the following:.

1) To stop and control future investemnts… Demand for a investment risk policy to be instituted by the Minister for all TCs that will allow ONLY bank deposits (local currency only), govt bonds/treasuries and a list of AAA/AA blue chip bonds and stocks listed in SGX. There should be a further sublimit for the bonds and stocks of say 5-10%. Maximising returns on sinking funds shall not be TCs’ primary responsibility. Maintaining the estates efficiently and cost-effectively is. This is already enshrined in the Town Council Act. TCs’ KPI shall focus only only negative but not positive returns on investments. Sinkingf funds are funds for deferred maintenance expenditures and not investment funds. Town councillors are not investment managers and are not more expert than the man in the street.

2) It may not be critical to insist that TCs henceforth publish detailed list of all investments frequently if policy in (1) above is in place. But all TCs should make their annual financial reports easily accessible on their websites. Investment assets with indications of cost and market value and profit/loss in investment activities (from sales, interest income, dividends) must be included in the financial reports as separate items.

3) Demand for a one-time spring cleaning by every TC with a report of all money invested as of year en 2008 with details as per (2) above as soon as possible. That will allow all TCs a clean start on the new regime of financial reporting for the future.

4) Finally, that each TC engages professional consultants to assess and establish the amount of sinking funds needed by each TC in the likes of how private residential and commercial sinking funds are determined and managed. A time horizon of ,say, 10 years of funding needs should be set for the purpose of establishing the amount of sinking funds needed. Large future capital expenditures and inflation, when they crop up, can be taken care of by adjustments to the S&C rates or by specific up-grading co-paying programmes.
Then a scheme should be established to reduce excessive sinking funds over time in some way that will basically result in easing the amount residents will bear in monthly S&C charges moving forward.

Will TOC pick this up as organiser or at least refer it to Tan Kim Lian. Perhaps he can help to organise the above as part of his platform in his quest for support for public service. After all this, 95% of Singaporeans have a stake in $2 billion of funds which are paid by them.

Real or not? Minister Mah same GRC with Dr Magad?

No anyhow say say… See see look look first better.

Maybe email made up one? That Nair also said his emails made up one. PAP is men in white. Stainless steel, you know? White is white.

No play play.

I just drop by. See this. Don’t even try flame me. I won’t read this comment page one. Hahahahahahahahahaha…

FAILLLLLLLLLL

Elfred #30,

Apparently you do Not know who Mah is and his appointment.

hongjun

Period.

We? Is the MP siding with the Minister? or is he siding with the People who vote for him?

Looks like this idiot will be out of a job after the next election.

to Merv, just to clarify.. Corporate governance doesn’t only apply to private corporations as the name seems to suggest. It’s a commonly used term in Singapore n internationally. It contains a set of standards and guidelines which an organisation, charity or institute of public character has to adhere to. You may find more information under the code of governance published by the commissioner of charities. Think you can google it

I thought TC operate independently?
example: the sinking fund investment the gov let them decide?
am i missing something?

why is minster advising tc how to reply what to reply?

corporate governance is for companies right?
TC is operated like a company?
singapore inc?

national development?

This sounds like a major cover-up exercise by the town councils. This my friends again demonstrates the serious shortcomings of a one-party political system. Nobody will be held accountable and nobody will be sacked…….as usual.

After observing the singapore situation,
I have this to say to you people only:

singaporeans….singaporeans…..sigh.

Dear Hong Jun (#32),

When has this world ever worked on ‘apparent’?
Why should I apparently know or no know about Mr Mah and his appointment? :D

Maybe I should blog about this in my blog… …(???)

I know how you folks think, apparently or not. You see the point is, as I have said… Nair was saying that his emails were not his. See? What happens if Dr Magad claims he never emailed such email?

Some people would say, ok… trace trace trace but, if Nair’s email ain’t be traced for effective handling of his case by the government…. who here is more powerful than the government?

I am not saying people cannot think they know.

Ciao~

To “people decided”, corporate governance is not just for companies. It is a professional terminology that we use in the workplace. It is a set of standards that the organisation, public or private, should adhere to. Just go to http://www.google.com.sg and search for “code of governance”.

In addition, I think the article published by Choo Zheng Xi is quoting the email out of context. The statement “Additional follow up queries should be replied with politeness, indicating that our disclosures are and will be consistent with Corporate Governance Standards” could mean as an instruction/reminder to the TC officers to remain cool and polite in their responses even if they are facing an intense influx of queries. Also, being consistent with corporate governance standards could mean that the process of communication must remain clear and transparent. Pls refer to pages 21 -22 of the code of governance.

I sincerely urge TOC and readers to not jump to conclusion so quickly….

This is the disadvantage of having a one party rule. Everything can be covered up. Don’t tell me the MP is willing to dig his own grave. !!

23) Steven on December 6th, 2008 10.20 am This drives home the point that PAP believes that once we have voted them in, they have absolute power and can do what they like in the following 5 years while they are in power. Hence, my fellow 66.6% Singaporeans, treasure your vote and choose wisely. Please do not be like the Thai peasants where votes can be bought.

PM is now trying to get the people’s support to his 1party system, so singaporeans! what do you think? give them the green light ? or ask them to FO! many of us had suffered long enough, when we kept quiet does not meant that we agree to what is going on in the country by these money craze idiots. The people of singapore needs a party top priority to take care of its citizens welfare and livelihood, not the other way round like what has been done to us since the last 2 elections. Vote them in this GE and get screwed further for another 5 more years. . . . oops! I don’t think there would be any GE, now they are forcing you people to vote them in as 1party system, and this is very dangerous.

YA I agreed with all that this is a serious crucial hiccup affecting many Singaporeans as around 80% of the population stays in HDB estates.

We should do something to ensure that TCs are transparent and that the collected S & C funds put to good use instead of investing into risky instruments.

Besides TOC, many of us can actually go to HLP and demonstrate. I am sure many Singaporeans will support this cause if it is well organised and covered. This coverup is worse than the minibond fiasco.

Too bad I am overseas, if not I may take the lead here.

We only need a team of around 5 to spearhead this movement:

1. Leader – to organise and plan

2. Logistics – book the place, plan slogan on pickets, drinks, snacks, etc

3. Administration – to handle any admin backup e.g. typing

4. Press liasion – handle any press coverage

5. Publicity – help spread the message using online or other means.

Of course, a crowd size of around 200 is ideal for the protest to take effect.

Unless someone is willing to stand up and be collected, we all will be sitting lame ducks again for the authorities to bulldoze over.

starting to crack… good!

Joe,

If you can find the 07/08 bukit panjang-holland TC report, i’ll buy you a drink.

36) the people chosed on December 6th, 208 12.56 pm

“I thought TC operate independently?”

I can asure you that they are independent, just like the independent commission tasked to investigate Mas Selamat’s escape, and organizations like CASE, NTUC which are helmed by a PAP man. Incestuous, maybe not, but independent definitely yes. They may not be independent factually or perceptually, but definitely so legally. :-)

Dear Ahgong,

I guess that I will not be able to get that drink.

On the Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council’s website, it only has Annual Report for FY 05/06 and FY 06/07.
http://www.hbptc.org.sg/annualreport.html

The latest FY 07/08 report is not uploaded yet. While searching the NLB catalog, there are no records of that physical TC annual report too. TCs used to place physical copies of the annual reports, it seems that some of the TCs stopped this practice. The last latest physical Annual Report is from Ang Mo Kio – Yio Chu TC for FY 2006/2007.
http://catalogue.nlb.gov.sg

By the way, Dr Teo Ho Pin is the Mayor of North West District, MP for Holland-Bukit Panjang Constituency, Chairman of Holland-Bukit Panjang Town Council.

The online sentinels should alert the “elected member” concerned about this discrepancy. Or are they still “fine-tuning” the final numbers?

Cheers.

so this is the so-called transparency that they have in mind….perhaps all residents are being treated as transparent long long ago…….

This particular email episode basically sums up the state of political and public service leadership we have in Singapore. The rot has begun. For how long and how deep, nobody knows because nobody seriously questioned or push for total transparency in the past.

They have been having it good for a very long time because of an absolute control of the MSM propaganda machineries and an apathetic citizens placing blind trust in them as a result of the development achieved by the first generation leaders in the 60s, 70s and early 80s.

Our citizen’s apathy towards poltical affairs have contributed to their false sense of invincibility, can do-no-wrong attitude, it’s always someone else’s fault mentality. That’s why till today, despite numerous request for more information on TCs investment, whether through emails, letters to MSM, blogs or forums, we continue to be denied the access to such information. They simply do not know how to handle such a situation as there has been no past precedent. They know how to quickly cover themselves in glory when things go right, but have absolutely no clue how to manage a bad situation other than stonewalling.

When political leaders justify their high pay by saying it would prevent corruption, one would also expect honesty, integrity, transparency and accountability. The day any of these attributes are compromised, the rot has begun. Indeed, spots of dirt are now appearing in their all white uniform.

You all are wasting your time..
Simply show the government your sentiments in the coming GE.
Let them continue ti be stuck up and secretive…

Nothing and no one lasts forever…

Hi All,

I reproduced below Dr Teo’s reply to my letter published in Today paper three days ago:

Voices // Weekend, December 6, 2008

Council funds ‘in a healthy state’

Letter from Dr Teo Ho Pin

Co-ordinating Chairmanfor PAP Town Councils

.
I REFER to “Town Councils: Who’s accountable?” (Dec 3).
.
We thank Mr Gilbert Goh for his letter and would like to address his queries on Town Councils’ investments. We fully understand Mr Goh’s concerns and would like to assure him that the Town Councils’ sinking funds are well-managed and are in a healthy state.
.
The appointed members of the Town Councils are mostly residents and some of them are professionals in the financial and accounting industry with good experience. As always, we explore and consider many options at our council meetings, such asappointing fund managers to handle the investments. Decisions are made after careful consideration and in strict compliance with investment guidelines set by the Ministry of National Development.
.
As our investments and circumstances differ, the respective Town Councils will reach out to their residents directly to address their queries and receive feedback through channels such as newsletters, town hall dialogues and websites. We will continue to improve or explore ways to better communicate with residents and keep them informed of our Town Councils’ finances.
.
Looking ahead, we would like to assure our residents that we will continue to be prudent, and will keep reviewing our investment approach so as to grow our sinking fund in a sustainable manner to meet the long-term needs of our estates.

Letter from Dr Teo Ho Pin

Co-ordinating Chairmanfor PAP Town Councils

.
I

wtf! but then there has NEVER any transparency where this party is concerned! tell the people what they need to know but dun embarrass us. NO MISTAKES are ever committed and if there are ever any committed, kill it! the papers will do not know the boundaries and they will be safe rather than sorry!
soon, you’ll have a chance to display your pleasure with the party come the GE, which is akan datang.

Hi All.

My letter on the TC fisaco as appeared in Today dated 3 Dec 08:

Voices // Wednesday, December 3, 2008

Town Councils: Who’s accountable??

Gilbert Goh Keow Wah

Sydney, New South Wales

I AM still disappointed with the response of the co-ordinating chairman of the14 PAP Town Councils, Mr Teo Ho Pin, over the investments issue.
.
:For me, it raised grave doubts about the reporting channels of our Town Councils.
.
:Who do they actually report to and if there is a serious breach of regulations in the future, who will take the rap?
.
:Surely, Town Councils will not want each resident to go to their office and ask for a detailed disclosure of their investments whenever they are deemed to have made a bad call?
.
:Also, the role and function of our elected Members of Parliament in Town Councils ought to be properly explained to the residents who have been — so far — kept in the dark about the decision-making process.
.
:The way Mr Teo has explained the accountability issue of Town Councils has raised the probability to me that our Town Councils have all along been very independent units, and that they have only to answer to the residents who pay their fees every month.
.
:If that is the case, Town Councils should operate like the residents’ committees of most private estates.
.
:Funds are collected monthly and the committee — appointed by popular votes within the estate — then employs an estate manager for their respective estate. The residents can then have a say in how funds are operated and utilised.

My point is this: they are hiding behind this code of governence bullshit to disclose the bare minimum. The issue is very simple, the residents pay the cash, they have every right to know how it’s used

Basically, if nobody’s is able to look at what Town Councils are investing, trouble is just nearby. What’s preventing those people from taking the money and escaping overseas?

You can see very clearly my level of confidence.

To ignore is one of the good strategy used in ancient china. Go read books such as “The romance of the three kingdom”!!

I live in Pasir Ris and am very sad to hear all this happening in my town council. There should be a commission of inquiry to look into all that has happened and is going on in all town councils.

The PAP always prides itself in saying its people are all free of corruption. Well time will tell i believe soon. The government seems to be doing a lot of things in secret. Wonder who are the richest people in singapore let alone the whole of asia. Who knows it could be a member of the government. If not one may be more?

Guess this is the year of revelation. Not only in the world but more so in singapore.To be honest I just cant wait for the next election, I have never been really involved but this time i dare to be different and will be out in full force to ensure that there is a change in singapore. Damn it its time!

Joe,

If I didn’t remember wrongly, the acct closing month for BP-holland is march. Seems like they have alot to “fine-tune” huh?

Gilbert goh, the reply is just a standard reply from PAP. I noticed that the chinese newspaper has also published a highly similar letter from Dr Teo.

Hi,

Just like to know,
DID the letter answered the question ?
I really like to know.

rgds
Chen Bhian Shui, aka Water

I read with astonishment… what kind of rubbish reply is this?
Looks like an email sent to the wrong person… hopefully.

I like this Exclusive. many thanks to TOC. Great job!

Elfred (#40)

You do make sense.

hongjun

“…..we will NOT disclose any further details beyond what we have already uploaded on-line”

Oh dear, what have they disclosed so far? Only the rules on TC investments and that TC has lost a certain percentage in their minibond investment according to these rules, as was already disclosed in Parliament. So, they have virtually disclosed nothing beyond what is already available from Parliamentary proceedings. And now they are putting a stop to all relevant and essential accounting info even before they start to disclose anything at all. We are truly being treated like children who are not supposed to know anything.
Well done PAP MP.

should this be send to the prime minster or should mm also come out to say something?

ONCE AND FOR ALL.

they should.

[...] Today the Online Citizen has greatly disappointed my hopes for them to be far more objective than most other political blog sites. Their headlines screamed: TOC Exclusive – MP instructs TC Manager after meeting Minister: “We will NOT disclose any further details” on TC Investments [...]

what is more objective then?

pap is more objective?

you are more objective?

or i am the most objective?

pap is the most objective.

hahahahaha.

pap pap pap.

i am safe i am rich.

???????????????????

i think you are also.

very safe and very rich.

hahahaha

Investors rely on the annual reports / financial statements to understand broad picture the performance of a company they potentially want to invest.

Would an investor want to know more than this summary info when there is losses made by the company they invest in?

I hope TC can be transparent enough to disclose more than just annual reports or financial statements WHEN THERE IS KNOW PROBLEM – investment loss in 1 product. How about the rest of the investments using the upto 35% of sinking funds? ZERO loss? more or less loss? Total loss?

actually, as time goes by, maybe, just maybe the investments may return a gain instead of a loss?

“36) the people chosed on December 6th, 208 12.56 pm

“I thought TC operate independently?”

I can asure you that they are independent, just like the independent commission tasked to investigate Mas Selamat’s escape, and organizations like CASE, NTUC which are helmed by a PAP man. Incestuous, maybe not, but independent definitely yes. They may not be independent factually or perceptually, but definitely so legally.”

and legally correct is all that matters in singapore. =) you wanna get bribed? its okay to do so, as long as its legal. morals are out of the question. sorry what are morals again?

70) me on December 7th, 2008 12.25 pm

I bet AIMS and the MSM are totally independent as well. must go and tell all my friends and family. yippie!

70)me

I tend to agree with you here.

We have a system whereby self checking is operating but abeit ineffectively.

The govt has a stronghold on all things pertaining to governance and order – TC, GIC, CPF, NOL, Temesak, DBS, Case, MAS that they no matter how you turn you will meet someone belonging to the govt and you have no where to hide. You may even find the politicians owing many companies or in directorship of Singapore-owned MNCs and corporations. Even the President is somehow installed by the ruling party and he is supposed to be impartial!

When Case was taken over by a PAP man, I know that they want to prevent any infiltration from outsiders. You can see how Case is being politicised and taken over by the govt without really making any headway in society. They are there but merely advisory and won’t fight hard for the counsumers like any social enterprise would.

We are indeed going downhill and will remain so unless something drastic happens.

the story goes liked this
pap town councils annual mating seasons held in a secret highclass 5 star hotel
1 great scholar says
we found a way to generate incomes
my friend in dbs inc have inside lobang
where we throw in a few million$
in 6 months
we will be collecting hugh returns
sured win situations
if loss
never mind lark
its the peasants maintaince fees nia mah
just increased the monthLEE fees blaiming
bangala workers salaries needs to be on par as any foreign talents lor….
so they start ordering champagm/cavairs/escargo and even sea hums
you all know for who lark…
so finalLEE the bubble burst..
the scholar responsible
happenned to be out of town
so is the inside dbs inc lobang seller
he just been retrenched
hear rumoured that he is still selling holes
in geylarg lorong 69 lark….
so how to write a report
telling you peasants what actualLEE happenned?
when you all wasn’t invited to the same high tea convention?

I refer to 52) Gilbert Goh on December 6th, 2008 3.57 pm on Dr Teo’s reply.
Voices // Weekend, December 6, 2008
Council funds ‘in a healthy state’
Letter from Dr Teo Ho Pin

“The appointed members of the Town Councils are mostly residents and some of them are professionals in the financial and accounting industry with good experience. As always, we explore and consider many options at our council meetings, such as appointing fund managers to handle the investments. Decisions are made after careful consideration and in strict compliance with investment guidelines set by the Ministry of National Development.”

For what I know, the relationship managers for the banks get commission from the sale of the bonds and unit trusts to their customers. I wonder the “appointed members” of the TCs did also received commission for investing for the Town Council’s sinking funds.

As the TCs refused to reveal the names of their investment agents for their sinking funds, I find that the identity, ethics and the professionalism of these so called “fund managers” questionable.

it’s obvious that this is what happens behind the scenes all the time. when we question and demand an explanation, we will just be pacified with lame politically correct responses.

“I bet AIMS and the MSM are totally independent as well. must go and tell all my friends and family. yippie!”

haven you heard the good news today? if you haven’t, you need your daily fix of propaganda. yay.

“As the TCs refused to reveal the names of their investment agents for their sinking funds, I find that the identity, ethics and the professionalism of these so called “fund managers” questionable.”

I believe that this online news article from ATC will give you some ideas.

Aljunied Town Council – Capital guaranteed funds have no exposure to credit-linked notes since end September 08
By Jeffrey Chua, Secretary, Aljunied Town Council
http://www.aljuniedgrc.sg/newweb/news.php

Singapore 17 November 2008 – Further to the statement issued on behalf of the PAP Town Councils, the Aljunied Town Council (ATC) would like to assure its residents that the Town Council’s funds are protected from diminution in value.
.
ATC adopts a conservative approach so as to ensure that risks are minimised whilst generating moderate returns to offset inflation. As such, the funds of ATC are invested in a diversified portfolio. About half of our reserves are invested in Singapore Government/Statutory Board bonds or held as fixed deposits in local banks or cash, whilst the other half totalling around $44M as at end September, are placed with DBS Asset Management (DBSAM) and UOB Asset Management (UOBAM) under capital-guaranteed arrangements. Although these mandates cover a variety of instruments, the aggregate portfolio is weighted towards more conservative securities such as bonds, unit trusts and cash.
.
For the total $42.56M principal amount still under external management by DBSAM and UOBAM, the valuation stood at $45.37M as at end August 2008 but declined in tandem with weakening market conditions to $44.14M as at end September 2008. This represented a 3.7% return on our principal sums. We will review our portfolio strategy when the mandates with the fund managers reach maturity between 2009 and 2011.
.
On 16 September 2008, we reviewed and were informed that our portfolio exposure to Lehman bonds was assessed at approximately 0.27% or $120,000 at most through the unit trust holdings. DBSAM had since divested out of the position and as at 30 September 2008, ATC no longer had any exposure to Lehman or other credit linked notes. UOBAM has confirmed that our funds invested by them have no exposure to Lehman Brothers.

Seriously… the troll level here is over 9000. I can barely see any constructive criticism among all the trolling and flaming. Plenty of hate, little practical value. If the comments here are representive of the general political maturity of Singaporeans, it’s no wonder people say we’re not ready for more open politics. I, for one, would not want a flamer to have any say in our governance.

inb4flame

“If the comments here are representive of the general political maturity of Singaporeans, it’s no wonder people say we’re not ready for more open politics.”

Another snobbish self-righteous comment.

“I, for one, would not want a flamer to have any say in our governance.”

It depends whether you are referring to direct or indirect say. Do not forget, flamer is also a citizen of voting right. Even any citizen who does not know anything about the affair of our country has voting right.

Enough about TCs and mismanaged funds.

We have heard how the govt apparently brushed away all probing questions and still sit pleasingly atop the pedestal with a smirk on the face. No matter what you ask, they will still throw the same..

” We fully understand everybodys concerns and would like to assure him that the Town Councils’ sinking funds are well-managed and are in a healthy state.”

Then you are back to square one.

It’s like Achilles turning to the opposing greeks after slaying their best warrior and said..
“IS THERE NO ONE ELSE?!”

Hope More Forums will Keep Talking of this Town Councils matter-
UNTIL Big Big Big,,,,,,

Otherwise, Those Elites Think people of S’pore is very forgotten and everything they sweep underneath!!!

aiyoyo

commoners hard earned $$$ leh,

easily forget, dont this so..

aiyoyo

aiyoyo

cnn news oil < 50usd/barrel,

are we paying the electric bills at this rate huh??

when will electric bills come back down huh??

aiyoyo

[i]Seriously… the troll level here is over 9000. I can barely see any constructive criticism among all the trolling and flaming.
inb4flame[/i]

you governed what?
by standing below the erp poles to count the numbers of clicks that bypassed the erp ca$h cow perhaps?
it not YOUR money that is being wasted
bet with you
you don’t even pay maintaince services @ all?
would you?
living on your parents perhaps?

The Town Council committee members should be elected
not appointed. The committee answers to the residents.

I am comforted with the more detailed disclosure of Aljunied Town Council’s exposure to minibond and other toxic investments by Jeffrey Chua, Secretary of Aljunied TC.

Why can’t Teo Ho Pin take a leaf from Aljunied TC and provide us disclosures of similar details for his Bt Panjang TC?

In fact I find it alarming that even in very simple fixed deposits placements Teo Ho Pin’s TC earns only 0.9% which is way below market rate.
Please Mr Teo, if there are no further worms to hide, please give us more details of your investment accounts.

Isn’t it true that the more these people goofed up and maintained their arrogance and ignorance, the better it is come election time?

For it will have more than enough reasons for citizenry to vote wisely. Dr. Teo is right, we should thank you for lettign citizenry know the better side of them. I think consituents will know what to do when given a chance to vote.

Maybe he used the other 2% to cover his ass – other failed investments, highly likely. You know, when u lumped everything together under 1 account 1 fund manager, they can write whatever and still considered legal and transparent.

Nominees for Famous PAP People Awards for 2008 are:

1) DPM Wong Kan Seng – for Mas Selamat Kastari

2) Dr Teo Ho Pin – for Towon Council SInking Funds

[...] 2 town councils invested S$12m in Lehman-related structured products TOC Exclusive – MP instructs TC Manager after meeting Minister: “We will NOT disclose any furt… it appears that the ministers are saying disclosure of investment but on the other hand tell their [...]

Rainnix said that “For what I know, the relationship managers for the banks get commission from the sale of the bonds and unit trusts to their customers. I wonder the “appointed members” of the TCs did also received commission for investing for the Town Council’s sinking funds.”

Hi Rainnix,
I don’t think the TC investor gets any monetary commission for investing the TC funds. However, it is well known that for every $50,000 that one invests in the minibond or unit trust, the bank gives the investor either a free 37 inch LCD TV, or a Sony 10MB digital camera or some other equivalent gift. I myself was offered one of these free gifts if I had taken up the bank’s minibond offer.

Do you think even if the actual investments and figures were published, will they reflect the actual truth, or is it purely made-up to appease the questioning public?

Remember there is no check-and-balance at all…

In my opinion, we should just f*#k the S&CC in unison for 2-3 months and drive home the message we mean it as this is our money. I don’t believe they will issue hundreds of thousands of arrear letters to every HDB family…

Only when we unite, then only we’ll be heard.

Since TCs are independent companies and they are unable to or refused o provide their yearly accounts for check and balance auditing, can the singaporeans sue them for this? Do we have a case here? any lawyers around?
We do not want to have another case like NKF to surface again.

moshedyan : “you governed what?
by standing below the erp poles to count the numbers of clicks that bypassed the erp ca$h cow perhaps?
it not YOUR money that is being wasted
bet with you
you don’t even pay maintaince services @ all?
would you?
living on your parents perhaps?”

Quod erat demonstrandum. moshedyan, what have you governed by the way? And what does an ad hominem attack at me do to the situation regarding TC funds?

maybe we are going to see another movie soon.

nkf 1 (the kids of the party)

nkf2 (the two tc)

nkf3(the return of mm)

this is bad. this is an open confession of stone-walling. no accountability, no transparency. need we say more?

btw, do we residents have the right to request that the town council not put up banners of the mps during festive seasons. they are ever so diligent to change the banners promptly. if anything, it is rather irksome to be reminded that the majority of us had voted for these pple to be paid millions of $$$ just to smile, pose and stone-wall.

arrrghhh!!!!

[...] the email (published on The Online Citizen), Wei [...]

The only weapon you have is your vote during GE. Use it wisely.

Just reading the email itself does not give anyone the context in which the email was made. It can be referring to anything in particular or something that is sensitive.

If the email is send out by mistake, then jumping to conclusion that it is “in response” to a TC fund management query is a mistake too. If it was such a big leak, why has the MSM not picked up by now?

I suggest we based on conclusions on facts and not on emails that reference to nothing in particular.

“The official secret – T&C scandal in investment.” coming to a screen near you. Think Neo + company gonna have a new script to direct, can ask Dr Teo to be lead actor.

Another honest mistake…

101) SZ on December 8th, 2008 10.15 pm

Another honest mistake…

Not really, should be another cheating case behind the citizens back and no one is responsible.

#98 –

the only weapon is not through votes. PAP can’t be toppled, Sg’s govt can’t be changed.

but citizenship can be changed. :) our only weapon is to migrate!

TC is but the tip of the iceberg as many are saying. Much more is obscured in a cloud of secracy. This is the standard “accountability and transparency” our Ministers sing about.

[...] Councils Lose $12M Public Funds – TOC: MP instructs TC Manager after meeting Minister: “We will NOT disclose any further details” on TC… – Feed Me To The Fish: Why is the Town Council bleeding me? – For Want of a Better Title: Fair and [...]

Having seen pre-independent Singapore to present day, the same 3 words which a shareholder used on the Merril Lyn BOD & their ex-CEO easily come to mind.

The new team of PM is also clearly so amateurish as to make mistakes which reminded like the wrong despatch of the Temasek secretary.

Not that the old guards are perfect – investments in UBS, ML and Citi have in a few months lost S$ billions in paper losses – while one can wait another 30 years to see better results, town council’s money are regular contribution from HDB folks, some of which are living from hand to mouth.
Have a heart please.

102) tiredsingaporean

Nah, i know that….lol, but honest mistake is a good excuse that can be use just about every mistake that happens…lol…

SZ

try telling the judge in court that I did’nt mean to rob that person, honesly I tot he was my friend whom I trusted, then the judge will tell you . . . .yah yah I believe you . . . . knock 3 times and then say . . . . . 3 years + 6 rottans . . . .NEXT PLS!

108) tiredsingaporean

I was referring it to the gahmen context….

Oh sure of course I know, my comment is not referring to you so so sorry if I did.

“If it was such a big leak, why has the MSM not picked up by now?”

????

You’re kidding, right?

should send to straits times ask them to publish in forum and see what the reply will be

Ha… they are covering it about TC investment.
No wonder i got no reply by TC…
This will not happen on next General Election.
Vote in Alternative Party(SDA, WP, SDP, NSP, REFORM PARTY).

Gilbert Goh, you are so long winded, and you tend to paste and repaste your letters. haiz…. argue based on the issue pls.

A simple search on the Singapore Government directory indicate :

1) Dr Ahmad Magad is the chairman of the PASIR RIS-PUNGGOL TOWN COUNCIL.

2) He fall under the Ministry of National Development (MND)

3) The minister heading MND is Mah Bow Tan.

Now who on earth could the Minister mentioned in his email be?

Should have made noise for the 1st honest mistake (telco compensation) when millions of tax payers money was given

we set the precedence and they follow

The way I look at it is that Town Councils, instead of only collecting enough money to provide maintenance and upgrading, they are collecting more money than is needed and have morphed into Investment Companies. I am sure when Town Councils were formed many years ago, that was not the objective.

In the Pasir Ris/Punggol Town Council, the Finance Committee is made up of 5 people. I wonder why do you need five people and what exactly is their role in the Council. To me, the organisation structure looks bloated. Do the Town Council need that many people? More importantly, how much are these people paid?

roland,

the money TCs collected from us are so excessive, so much that they have to gamble them off all this while, so to employ a few more people to do a simple accounting job is nothing to them, they don’t pay them, we pay them so the more people will make the TCs looks as though they have so much work to do just to impress the higher ones. Get that?

roland,

the more they employ people just to show that they are working very hard to the higher ones to impress them, they don’t pay them, we pay them so it cost nothing to them, we are just being made suckers.

The town councillor allowance for Pasir Ris-Punggol TC was increased by $30k in 07/08 annual report compared to the previous one. Was about 15% increase if my calculations are not wrong.

They sure are having a good time with the funds they are collecting aren’t they?

yeah you can say that, I’ve also seen group of TC staffs and their managers having good times and throwing their monies at certain clubs and pubs almost every other nights. Not that I’m being jealous but one keep thinking where the hell can these salary paid people can afford to spend so much money continuously, mind you they don’t drink beer, they go for the premiums OK!

Interestingly I just took a look at the Pasir Ris Punggol TC website and out of 50 town councillors listed, I could only see the photos of 3 of them.

Was wondering if their photos have been taken out because of this current fiasco? Hmm…scared of being spit upon by the residents? =)

3) tiredsingaporean on December 6th, 2008 1.58 pm. Firstly, you mentioned “many of us” had suffered in SIngapore. Who are these “us” that suffered in the way you mentioned? If we compare Singapore to most other countries, are we really suffering? Secondly, you mentioned again that in the last 2 elections, the citizens’ welfare and livelihood had not been taken care of. Are you one of these citizens? Which welfare – employment, medical, education? There are numerous organisations around and the society would render you the help it could afford. Thirdly, you mentioned that Singapore would “get screwed further for another 5 more years” if the PM’s party gets elected for the next GE. So you considered Singapore’s progress for the numerous 5 years from 1965 till 2008 dissatisfactory for you? Seems like you do not appreciate living in a comfortable modern city that happens to be built by the party you advocated not to vote for.

69) open book when required on December 7th, 2008 12.17 pm

“Investors rely on the annual reports / financial statements to understand broad picture the performance of a company they potentially want to invest.

Would an investor want to know more than this summary info when there is losses made by the company they invest in?”

Imagine when queried at the AGM or EOM about company losses, the CEO asks the stakeholders to “refer to the annual reports”. LOL

Hi All

I need more signatures on the online petition as so far there are only less than 80 people willing to sign.

We sometimes need to walk the talk or else the authorities will say that we all are NATO – no action talk only. This is just an online petition not even asking you guys to show your face in real. Your email will not be shown though it is required on the peition signing.

I know that some of us are fearful but unless we strive on bravely we will be in the same condition we have being all along.

This is just a small step that you can do to show to the authorities that we mean business or we can just go on ranting here.

Do it for your children.

You should probably put this up on ST forums.

123) wishbone on December 11th, 2008 12.34 am

Oops! it seems that I’ve offended some papees hardcores here but too bad this is only a free platform for any citizenry to voice out their view. Hope you are not one of those who is living somewhere near those high up ivory tower, because you can’t really see the people below.

Gilbert – wouldn’t it be a good idea to advertise the link to the online petition along with your plea? Or to publish a blog article on the petition so that it can be linked to other blogs?

A simple search through all the major SG blog aggregators showed no mention of the petition at all – perhaps this obscurity is the primary reason for the lack of response?

Hi wishbone,

If we compare Singapore to most other countries, are we really suffering?

Comparison, always the same of tool of argument. When one compares with 1st world economies, we get bashed for not comparing with our neighbours. When we compare with our neighbours, we get bashed for not comparing with 1st world countries. When one is in pain, does he have to compare with the bedside patient to see how much pain he is in before declaring that he is in pain himself?

When I am suffering, would I care if my neighbours are suffering more or lesser than me? When I hear heaps of people complaining in the city square about the same things I am complaining about, do I need to go find if people from other countries are suffering the way I do and if not it means that I am not suffering?

Always the comparison. When Singaporeans say they are suffering, why can’t these people just take it as that – that we are suffering and stop all the comparisons that we are better off than others so there is no cause for complaints.

Secondly, you mentioned again that in the last 2 elections, the citizens’ welfare and livelihood had not been taken care of. Are you one of these citizens? Which welfare – employment, medical, education?

All of the above, in case you just drop from the sky. Employment – read FT. Medical, read means testing, Education, read balloting; yes; Singaporeans balloting with foreigners, just to name a few according to your list.

There are numerous organisations around and the society would render you the help it could afford

You must be kidding right or. like I said, you must have dropped in from the outer layers of space.

you mentioned that Singapore would “get screwed further for another 5 more years” if the PM’s party gets elected for the next GE…. Seems like you do not appreciate living in a comfortable modern city

You see, one man’s dream is another man’s nightmare. Singapore is good to look at. It is not so safe at night anymore. Where I used to open my main door, I now keep it closed because of the numerous foreigners within my block and those who drop by for visits.

Comfortable? If this modern city is comprised of modern native inhabitants who know each others habits and living lifestyle in and out, then yes; it would be paradise. But unfortunately, we are bringing in so many aliens of the unknown breeds that we even begin to fear our own natives. This is how I view Singapore as it is now. Mumbai doesn’t help one bit.

I know you view it differently, that’s you you continue to keep faith with the PAP govt but not me and neither those who share the same sentiments as mine. So, please don’t go telling us how sweet and nice Singapore is (compared to….). I don’t a shit about your opinion. I care about mine and those who are crying out next to me.

Every evening, I make it a point to go look out for a poor old cardboard auntie or a can-scavenger uncle to give him some of what I can spare so that they would be able to buy themselves a proper dinner or something. Go tell them that Singapore is comfortable and modern and tell me what they say to you.

Hi AC, I found it on Tan Kin Lian’s blog. A search on Google for “town council petition Singapore” yielded that.

Hi Gilbert,

Thanks for initiating this. I’ve just signed it; was out of action for the past few days since the marathon ;P I thought it might be good also to include calls to review the size & frequency of S&C charges going forward, given the revelation of the excesses accumulated.

With reference to Ms Grace Fu’s latest reply, I am puzzled by the oft-repeated claims that FD yielded only 1% interest for the size of our deposits. A quick check on Pasir Ris-Punggol revealed almost 3% last year and more than 3% the year before. For Sembawang (their annual reports are not text-searchable and are divided into between 2 and 5 files per year), it went as high as 3.44% for the year ended 2007 though it also went as low as 0.43%. I am equally puzzled why fixed deposits of their quantum would only yield 0.43%, and why this is even acceptable when ordinary citizens were & are still getting 1% with our significantly relatively smaller deposits.

Ultimately, I hope TC would get back in line with those in the private sector, and not be badly disguised political and financial tool.

The citizens have already given invaluable feedback, albeit a little strong at times, about their preception of the town council’s revelations, as well as suggestions to move forward. If the PAP chooses to dismiss this as ungratefulness on the citizens’ part, I would say they have regrettably become irrelevant for the future of Singapore.

The discerning citizens will show them what it means to be grateful and forward-thinking at the same time. We are grateful to the old guards for laying the right foundation. At the same time, we are alarmed at how the current leadership takes this for granted and attempts to steer Singapore against the wishes and values of the majority, and create a Singapore that spells trouble with a capital T for our children and our children’s children. Our vote at the next GE will reflect this forward-thinking mindset.

[...] 点我读原文 [...]

Dear Gemani

Thank you for your lengthy reply. This is off topic but still I think there is a need for a reply. I know you dislike comparison. Let me just do one more- the number of destitute people (what you called old cardboard auntie or can-scavenger uncle) in Singapore is considered very low. Moreover, there are welfare homes and NGOs that cater to these people. I appreciate your effort in offering them a meal or so. You can take a step further to bring them to VWOs or call 1800-222-0000 (Comcare Hotline). Please put your prejudice aside and see the amount of effort put in by both government and NGOs to help people who are suffering .

You are concerned with means testing for medical aid and balloting for education choices. These measures are hard decision made due to resource constraint. They are not there to make anyone suffer but to better allocate the resources to those who need it more. If a person with 1k/month income fails to get his welfare, he must understand that this is because there is another person earning perhaps 0.5k/month and in a dire strait applying for the same aid.

Your biggest concern seems to be foreign workers in Singapore. Somehow you feel unsafe with their presence. But you must understand that these workers are helping our economy. Constructions and building costs are rising. We need these foreign workers with lower wages. That does not mean that locals are totally excluded from the jobs that these low-wage foreign workers do. Many of them become foreman and supervisors.

Of course, it is perfectly normal that you care about your opinion. But sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of others. Let’s trying fitting into the shoe of the government. Would it make sense to come up with unpopular policies and getting cursed and sworn because of that? Moreover, these policies would risk the present government’s chance of getting elected again in the next GE. Since this is so, why did they still insist on these unpopular policies? Would it not be easier to come up with sugary policies? One thing sure is that it is easy to find fault than to solve problems.

Again, they are testing the patience of Singaporean. Another 2 more months and the TC saga will be forgotten….. No mainstream media supporting the TC news, I would say about 65% of Sillyporeans never even heard of TC sinking fund saga.

From this email, you can clearly see the hands are on every Singapore affairs, they are on every livlihood of Singaporean. Do we want a country to be run by a one “company” system that does not offer transparency?

108) tiredsingaporean

yeah, bet you did just that….however, i share the same view as you.

and to

133) wishbone,

although some of the people here may not be the one suffering, however, they do notice that there are some people that is around them that is suffering. and you are trying to compare us against other countries…so let me ask you this…a certain portion of the locals are suffering, but if we are not suffering as much as some countries, then we shouldn’t complain and ask for changes?

“You can take a step further to bring them to VWOs or call 1800-222-0000 (Comcare Hotline). ” numerous organization helping us? hello…i just read some post and have a recall of an article on how Dr Lily try to request for more assistance over the current one for the needy citizens living in jln besar during parliament, and what was the reply? instead of discussing on what can be done, the reply is similar to :”the system is in place…refer them to those department…” is that what you mean by the effort?

and rgd foreign workers…yes, we need them for lower wages, but not till an extend whereby simple jobs that Singaporeans want to do is also taken up by foreigners.

well, and lastly, regarding the sugary policies…what benefits us may not benefit them. I mean, come on…where do the money for pay checks comes from?

i have nothing against you wishbone, but what you are writing posting here is just like….how should i put…a very systematic and politically correct reply.

Hi SZ

Thanks for being understanding what I am trying to contribute my point of view here. However, I really don’t understand why whenever there is any article or negative comments written about the garment policies, somehow someone would just come in and defend these elites, if they are not those hardcore papees, then I think they are the typical kia si, kia su, kia woo kia boh sort of singaporeans.

Hi tiredsingaporean ,

You are most welcome, i understand your frustration and I know that you are stating your point of view…and that’s what most of us are doing here. by sharing our ideas, we will be able to gain a better understanding and hopefully improvements can be make.

if we want to use a less developed country as a standard to compare on social welfare, then why don’t we use that to compare other stuff especially our transport system? I think that it is silly when we use less develop countries to compare on welfare and more advance countries on transportation and cost of living etc. I find it weird when i think of it this way, * this is an example, please do not be offended” our welfare is better then india and our transportation is cheaper then Japan.

as for those “defenders” well, i mean no offense, but they have their view too…and i respect it.but it is when some of their “point of view” gets too illogical then i will want to retort.

Yes, you are right SZ. I just feel that the way these people defend the policies is just way too extreme, I suppose they can’t be that blind as though all the comments contributed here by the citizenry are just made up stories.

138) tiredsingaporean

Yes,i feel the same way too…but maybe they are just correcting us and recommending us what are the channels to approach, but i take that part with a pinch of salt…

Hi wishbone,

the number of destitute people (what you called old cardboard auntie or can-scavenger uncle) in Singapore is considered very low

Does it matter if the number is low? If there is a person dying of hunger, do we ignore him and say there are another 100 healthy ones that need my time and concern and that I cannot be bothered with one because there are a hundred to look after? Why are we so cold and need to always look at things in their numeric proportions before we act?

Moreover, there are welfare homes and NGOs that cater to these people.

I have touched on this before and my main point was on the dignity of the destitute. How do you get them to approach these help-centres when their dignity is one of the biggest hurdle to break down? Do we leave them in their current state because they want to save face?

Now, the more important question is why are we, the people, looking out for these destitute to bring them to these help-centres? Isn’t it the job of the government to look out for them in the first place. We are not talking about one or two that we hardly see but so many of them that they hardly miss our eyes.

Please put your prejudice aside and see the amount of effort put in by both government and NGOs to help people who are suffering .

It is hard to put prejudice aside, I do admit, and I am not ashamed of it. I do see the effort put in by the govt but these are limited to setting up of welfare homes and shelters and waiting for these poor folks to walk through their doors by the dozens. It does not work that way. After setting up these homes and shelters, the govt and its agencies somehow felt that their job is complete. Why do things half-way when all it needs is half a step more – get these people to go walk the streets, so to speak, and source out these poor folks. It takes no effort to source them out.

You are concerned with means testing for medical aid and balloting for education choices. These measures are hard decision made due to resource constraint. They are not there to make anyone suffer but to better allocate the resources to those who need it more.

I am concerned with more than these few items that just popped into the head when I wrote my reply to you. There are reasons and as always, seemingly good ones, presented by the govt, but what this govt has a habit of doing is to ignore the points brought up by the people. As long as they felt they have answered their ‘critics’ adequately, the bill would be passed in parliament. It becomes a war or words and who can describe or reason better wins the battle. There are things that goes beyond dollars and cents and common sense that deals with a person’s life, dignity and plain humanity. These are very often overlooked.

Your biggest concern seems to be foreign workers in Singapore……. We need these foreign workers with lower wages. That does not mean that locals are totally excluded from the jobs that these low-wage foreign workers do. Many of them become foreman and supervisors.

Again, FT is not my biggest concern. Every issue that affects a Singaporean is a big enough concern for me. There is no denying that there is a need for businesses to employ FWs but in recent times the question of balance is a real concern. We have been told that FWs were employed because Singaporeans shun certain jobs but how true this is we do not know. We have heard how Singaporeans were deprived of jobs that went to the FW. This has to be addressed and protection must be given to the Singaporean worker over and above business needs. Unless you are telling me that the Singaporean worker is of a lower standard than the FW.

But sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of others. Let’s trying fitting into the shoe of the government. Would it make sense to come up with unpopular policies and getting cursed and sworn because of that?

Give me $300,000 a month and I’ll try to fit myself in to the govt’s position.

Why do you think the govt always think their policies are unpopular in the first place? Why these description of bitter pills and what not? Why this low self-esteem from this govt? Don’t you think this is where the problem lies?

It would be good for this govt to take some time to think over how to fit the people in to these hard to take policies and see if there is a better way to protect the peoples’ interests before deciding on what they deem are necessary for them to take. Talking to the people would be a good way to go about it. Talking to the people means coming down to the street level, not to their own grassroot organisations that more often than not prefer to shield the truth from their bosses.

As for hard policies resulting in PAP being voted out at the next GE, all I can say is that we should stop kidding ourselves. The PAP is not going to lose any elections any time soon and they know it. When danger comes close, it will find some ways to play with the election rules to see that it always holds the advantage.

This is another reason why Singaporeans must rise up against it because it has made the PAP govt bold and arrogant to the extent of ignoring the needs of its people.

We are not asking for the heavens and the whole earth. We are simply asking to be heard and that policies be structured with our interests fully considered and the best solutions thought up that include the people’s welfare.

Very simply, we, the people, are asking for basic protection from the govt we have voted to serve us. This govt has to stop protecting its own self interests and stop serving its own under the pretext of national good.

No. 140 Gemami: “If there is a person dying …”

The same goes with beach families, uncles in the park and aunties pushing trolleys. Perhaps these are mythical creatures for some of our friends in Singapore. It would be an eye-opener for TOC to do a documentary on these whom most busy folks have no time or heart for.

I think it is a great idea to do a documentary on these poor folks. We have one by Martin See short film titled ‘Nation Building’ but I think one where there is proper narration while the film is being shot would do much better. Someone needs to bring the plight of these poor folks out into the open.

Would TOC take up logicalman’s suggestion?

“Very simply, we, the people, are asking for basic protection from the govt we have voted to serve us. This govt has to stop protecting its own self interests and stop serving its own under the pretext of national good.”

I like this part…

SZ, gemami, logicalman, I see that you guys are looking at things very superficially. I mean have you guys ever done any community work before? Obviously not enough experience helping people. Let me give you some scenarios that resembles what I personally see on ground.

Uncle A:
This uncle is 65 years old and is now suffering from kidney disease. His wife died 5 years ago. His has only 1 daughter having her own family living in a 3 room flat with a total family income of 1k/mth, barely enough for her family expenditure. Uncle A is now picking up old newspaper, cardboards and metal cans to recycle for money. He is unable to pay for his rental for 1 room flat. Now he wanted to seek help but does not know how.

15 years ago, Uncle A had a job as a security guard earning 2k/mth. He owned a 4 room HDB flat in Toa Payoh that is valued at 250k. When his daughter got married, he sold the flat and started to rent a 1 room flat with his wife. He spent the most of the money on a car, some travelling with his wife and started a hawker stall business selling drinks. He did not save much and had very little CPF. The business eventually failed. After his wife died, he suffered from kidney failure and had taken up aid from KDF for dialysis.

Auntie B:
Auntie B is 59 years old. She was widowed at the age of 35 and her only son suffered from Down Syndrome. She worked as a cleaning lady ever since her husband died 20 years ago and earning $500/mth. Recently, she suffered from serious joint infections and can no longer work. But she still has to pay the rent and take care of her son. She does not own any property and her husband only left her with 2k. She seeks help to solve her housing arrears from HDB and for her living expenditure.

Background:
The country is Singapore, a small vulnerable city state with an economy that is easily affected by any sneeze and cough of the global market. It does not have unlimited amount of money. It has to keep itself attractive and competitive in order to maintain its economy so that every Singaporean can maintain their livelihood.

Concerns:
Singapore, although a socialist-like state, does not operate like a welfare state. Reason is simple: we do not have enough resource to do this and we do not wish to tax ourselves and out investors too heavily if not our economy would fall and we would revert to our kampong status with surrounding neighbour countries eyeing on us. Singapore is not invulnerable. It needs its people to be strong and able if not it will fall.

THERE ARE SINGAPOREANS THAT KEPT ASKING WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR THEM. Thankfully, there are other Singaporeans who ask themselves what they can do for their country and their fellow Singaporeans.

Now:
Assuming you have the power to give welfare to people. Cash is in your hands. You need to spilt them. Some to develop the economy, some for defence, some to educate our young and some to give to our sick and injured.

Looking at Uncle A and Auntie B. Tell me who will you give the welfare to? Uncle A who made the wrong life decisions, spent his money on cars and travel or Auntie B? If you chose uncle A, then what you are ultimately doing is to use tax payer money to recover his loss of hawker business, pay for his car and his travel. If you choose both, you are sacrificing funds that are used for defence and education, making Singapore weaker and vulnerable (if Singapore fails, EVERYONE suffers).

DO YOU GET IT NOW?

People have to be responsible for their own doing. They cannot expect people to help them when it was foreseeable that they would end up in a dire strait. However some people are struck by calamities that we have to help them. Its not that we choose who we want to help. But we have this much money and we can only give to deserving people.

I understand that it is hard wrenching when you see a video posted by someone on Youtube depicting old uncles and aunties picking up newspaper and begging for money while showing other people (and most often the Ministers depicted as talking or enjoying) having a good life. But if you looked deeper, things are not as simple as what the video maker is trying to do – to tell a fake story about evil officials squandering the money of poor folks. As usual, these videos operate like propaganda. Let’s be mature about it and not be influenced.

Well, you can choose to verify what I painstakingly explained. Go join a community service (one that is not operated by the government since you guys hate the government so much) for at least half a year. See for yourself what others who are doing something instead of venting their frustration on a website.

Yes I strongly support TOC to do a documentary on the plight of our poor uncles and aunties who are forced to salvage anything that is worth anything at all from the garbage bins.
I feel very ashamed that we are not doing enough for them, both politically and financially. These old people have also contributed to make Singapore what it is today and yet now they are discarded like soiled toilet paper.
How did our society become so unequal when you know that the rich and powerful like our Ministers are earning such outrageous salaries. Just compare our Minister’s $3m salary with the pay of US$186k which Hillary Clinton will be getting as the new Secretary of State of the USA, as according to today’s ST report on page C13). Is any one of our ministers doing a job that is ten times more important than the US Secretary of State? Remember that The Secretary of State is fourth in line to take over the US Presidency in case something happens to the President, the VP and the Speaker of the House, in that order.

“Uncle A who made the wrong life decisions, spent his money on cars and travel or Auntie B? If you chose uncle A, then what you are ultimately doing is to use tax payer money to recover his loss of hawker business, pay for his car and his travel. If you choose both, you are sacrificing funds that are used for defence and education, making Singapore weaker and vulnerable (if Singapore fails, EVERYONE suffers).”

For defence and education only ? As what those people up there and you would want us to believe.

You have written a long article but can be best summarised by zeroing into the situation of uncle A and with it in having the intention of giving some logical closure to your case.

In the case of uncle A, car, travel, starting & failing in business and kidney failure are all different events happening perhaps in different or concurrent times having a net impact to his current predicament.

Failing a business and having kidney failure cannot be construed as wrong life decisions. Entreprenuership, with widely known high attrition rate, is encouraged even here in our country.

No one asked for failure and kidney failure. Having a car & travel which is so common may be done during good times. You know the facts better.

“As usual, these videos operate like propaganda. Let’s be mature about it and not be influenced.”

Propaganda ? Please do not make me laugh. This is child play compared to our MSM. Remember, they made so many first calls only until only recently where YouTube or a lot of whatever tubes in the internet are becoming one big leveller in the whole propaganda, information or disinformation games.

140) gemami on December 12th, 2008 9.13 am

But sometimes we need to put ourselves in the shoes of others. Let’s trying fitting into the shoe of the government. Would it make sense to come up with unpopular policies and getting cursed and sworn because of that?

Give me $300,000 a month and I’ll try to fit myself in to the govt’s position.

Gem,
give me that $300.000 a month and not that I will try to fit myslef in their position, I can make even the whole entire nation love me so much almost immediately. How? very simple! give me the key to the vault and I will release all the cpf monies in full to those already hit 55. Not enough to pay out, no problem I am pretty sure I will have the permission of all the singaporeans to withdraw 50% of the risky foreign investments back because these money belongs to the singaporeans.

145) anonymous on December 13th, 2008 12.50 pm

To summarised all these, now you people know WHY they always penalise anyone that dares to question them, not even our late president Ong TC was being spared.

Dear wishbone

I wish you would be more restrained and discerning.

I’m a volunteer with a VWO, having spearheaded major public education campaigns in the last three years for an underprivileged community of people. If that doesn’t count as community service, I’ve also constantly referred unemployed persons to employment opportunities, and preparing them for it. I also raise funds regularly for people in financial hardship.

In every society, there will be constraints as to who and how much we can help. We are not advocating welfare without strings, or welfare for one and all. Many suggestions have been made in this forum that will help cushion the impact of economic downturn or even prevent people from having to turn to the Govt for help – eg. drawing on CPF, temporary reduction in GST/other taxes, rentals, utility, levies, realistic cost-based HDB prices, etc. Most have supported the call of no welfare, but implement sound and fair policies such as minimum wage to prevent exploitation of foreign workers, and to review “market-subsidy” for public housing and the privatization of essential goods and services that have led to higher prices. Many are also questioning the value of re-training when job opportunities are scarce in the light of our foreign employment policies.

Being an open economy with no real market leadership, unlike South Korea, Japan, China and India, Singapore is vulnerable to trade fluctuations and we recognise that. We recognise the importance of staying attractive and competitive to ensure the long-term survival of this island nation. What we are asking is this:

1. Can the Govt do away with the steep fiscal revenues and reverse recent hikes, and re-implement this when the global economy is back on track?
2. Is the Govt spending enough during downtimes like this for the people, or channeling proportionately yet more money into questionable investments overseas?
3. Are our policies truly in line with the needs of the people in view of the economic & employment realities?

Let’s not be too quick to judge and blame people for bad decisions in their life. Even Govt leaders make bad decisions that people have been asked to overlook and move on. I would ask if the Govt would be as gracious to help those who are in dire straits now, but are willing to restructure their lives to move on.

Dear Wishbone,

Ahh,unlike us, you mr wishbone, is someone who look really in-depth into the situation? Come on, everyone of us have differing opinions, just because you have a different opinion doesn’t mean that others are superficial.

Let me just sum it up for you…helps need to go both way… what we are discussing over here is how the gahman have been helping the citizen…and you were not able to give us a concrete explaination on what is been done and is it effective? we just feel that more can be done.

a person need to help themselves otherwise even if someone gives them the lift, nothing will be achieve out of it…there are people out there who are trying to make life better for themselves and they need some help. however, when they are requesting for help, they are given the cold shoulder. When Dr Neo request for extra support, she knows that those are the needies and they deserve the assistance, thus she voice out her request, and look at the reply. Now, don’t tell me Dr Neo is trying to help Scenario Uncle A, and that was why she is rejected. We are not asking the gahmen to help everyone, but at least try to listen and provide more assistance for those who genuinely needs it. This happen in real life, unlike your scenario, which differ.

and as you have said ” we not not have unlimited money” and we agree…however what most of us here feels is if we don’t have that much money, why are the MIW drawing such a high pay, from the tax payer’s money when it can be used to help the needies…

furthermore, you said that “you are sacrificing funds that are used for defence and education” hello…what about their pay? i guess you accidentally miss that out. Yes, we can’t compromise on defense and education, but paycheck is another different issue. and i don’t think a huge amount is needed for this issue at hand,until it will compromise security and education

but mr wishbone, what you have been posting is very nice, questioning us as it helps us to improve on our case.

hmmm…i doubt you even know about anything at all.

Hi 144) wishbone: It’s not that simple on December 13th, 2008 12.25 pm

… I see that you guys are looking at things very superficially. I mean have you guys ever done any community work before? Obviously not enough experience helping people. Let me give you some scenarios that resembles what I personally see on ground.

There is a standard format every time someone speaks up for the govt.
1st: tell the audience what they have been hearing are nothing but naïve, superficial and brainless opinions from people with nothing better to do but sit behind a computer and write nonsense.
2nd: tell the audience that these same people do not have the correct ‘facts’ when they wrote what they wrote.
3rd: share his own expert and firsthand experience to convince the audience why his thoughts are the correct ones and must be believed.
Why can’t they just go ahead and share what they have to share without having to run others down first. Such insecurity and low-self esteem.

I shall not list here the community work I have undertaken mainly because; let’s just say; it will put you to shame by comparison.

Assuming you have the power to give welfare to people. Cash is in your hands. You need to spilt them. Some to develop the economy, some for defence, some to educate our young and some to give to our sick and injured.

The answer is simple. When you have the political power and the means are in your hands to make decisions as you deem fit, then your responsibility is toward the people who voted to keep you there to look after their interest.

Go tell the govt to break down the list of priorities you have listed here and tell them to give us the monetary figures that goes into each item. After that, tell them to tell the electorate during election time that $XXXXmillion will be used to attract businesses, $XXXmillion will go into Defence, $XXmillion will go into Education, $Xmillion into Healthcare; while welfare will be on a case-by-case format. Tell the govt to use this to ask for the peoples votes.

In the case of uncle A, take away the unforeseeable elements in his case and you will see that 15 years ago, he had a healthy income of 2k/mth and a nice little 4 room flat with good value. When his daughter got married, he must have thought his life’s duty was completed and that he wanted to live life differently away from the rat-race that is Singapore. The early 90’s came with promises of a good life by the GCT govt, remember? So what is wrong for the people to take the words of their leader literally and go on vacations and be a bit more laid back. Probably we can attribute his kidney failure to the good life espoused by GCT.

And now, after voting for the PAP and doing the things the PAP had called the citizens to do, even setting up business, the same PAP now turns its back on him because he is now deemed to have squandered his life away?

Auntie B. Her husband died when their down-syndrome child was 4 years old, 20 years ago. For 20 years, she was earning a meagre $500/mth. How come no one found it necessary to help her out all these years and now after 20 years we are still deciding if her case warrants priority help over other cases? Do we step in to help only after she ’suddenly’ suffers from osteoporosis?

… Singapore, a small vulnerable city state with an economy that is easily affected by any sneeze and cough of the global market. It does not have unlimited amount of money. It has to keep itself attractive and competitive in order to maintain its economy so that every Singaporean can maintain their livelihood.

And who is making this possible? The PAP govt and the PAP govt alone? If that is the case, then leave the people out of the equation and we won’t be demanding anything. It is the people who make it possible for the country to remain competitive and for the govt to be able to stand with world leaders to promote their wares – because of the people’s support. Why then do this PAP govt dump these same people and ignore them when they have outlived their usefulness, or rather, PAP’s purpose?

Singapore, although a socialist-like state, does not operate like a welfare state. Reason is simple: we do not have enough resource to do this and we do not wish to tax ourselves and out investors too heavily…

Can the excuse be as lame as this? We have TCs accumulating funds by the billions; same with our National Reserves. We have independent self-help groups and institutions to source out and help these poor folks while the govt pretends they don’t even exist. If the govt do not have the resource, as you claimed, then they have failed and failed miserably. Mind you, our taxes are not small change for that matter.

THERE ARE SINGAPOREANS THAT KEPT ASKING WHAT THE COUNTRY CAN DO FOR THEM. Thankfully, there are other Singaporeans who ask themselves what they can do for their country and their fellow Singaporeans.

You have totally missed the point. These Singaporeans have answered the calls made by this PAP govt to support their policies and they are now asking, after having contributed and committed themselves to the country their whole lifetimes, for a little help from the govt to have their basic needs look after. The PAP govt cannot ignore this responsibility for to do so is to become a liar and a thief.

DO YOU GET IT NOW?

People have to be responsible for their own doing. They cannot expect people to help them when it was foreseeable that they would end up in a dire strait. However some people are struck by calamities that we have to help them. Its not that we choose who we want to help. But we have this much money and we can only give to deserving people.

Who is it then to ascertain if one has lived his life responsibly? What do we need to produce when we grow old and need help? Video evidence? What is foreseeable in your examples? The failed kidney as a result of GCT asking people to live it up and enjoy the good things in life?

I understand that it is hard wrenching when you see a video posted by someone on Youtube …

Why do you think people who do not think the way you do are those who have watched too much Youtube videos? Why do you have this stereotyped thinking that causes you to see think from a biased perspective of what people are honestly trying to present here?

…to tell a fake story about evil officials squandering the money of poor folks.

Are you implying those cardboard aunties and uncles screen actors?

I have stories to tell of rich people who have been born with silver-spoons in their mouths but yet found it needful to be paid by the millions. These same people have the audacity to come begging the citizens for such increments and even when the people answered, No, they still proceeded to do what they wanted to do after dishing out a few threats here and there. Anyway, this is for another day. If you want I can share with you the stories of Rich Uncle A and Tai-Tai Aunty B.

152) gemami

that’s a good one…my sentiments…

Thanks for the thumb’s up, SZ.

I am waiting for wishbone’s reply, leh.
Seems like he had disappeared into thin air like the rest (Lazarus and his 20 lizards, auntielucia and her paragon kakis and Elaina & her cymbal-banging cheerleading gang).

You are welcome…i guess we share the same view, especially with regards to mr wishbone

I mean, there are people out there who says that we are asking too much from the gahmen, but i say, if the gahmen is getting such a high pay, then they need to justify with action. and when we criticize the gahmen, these people will pop up and tries to defend them, citing example of how lucky we are. however their defense sound so empty as what we are stating are fact.

154) gemami on December 16th, 2008 1.14 pm
Seems like he had disappeared into thin air like the rest (Lazarus and his 20 lizards, auntielucia and her paragon kakis and Elaina & her cymbal-banging cheerleading gang).

Hi Gem, I also think so lah all these people could be a special team send in here to counter attacking our comments, maybe they are even been paid to do the job lah, “part-time cyber team”

I would like to think that this goes beyond the high pay issue.

There have been numerous attempts by this PAP govt to paint itself as having the highest level of integrity built along the reputation it declares itself to possess and having the mandate to do what it does, from the people who voted for them, because they are the best in the land.

To give an example of what I mean, let’s hear Vivian Balakrisnan’s own words on transparency being the key to Singapore’s success:

Vivian: ““Everything we do is under public scrutiny. In Singapore there are no secrets, if I cock up you will know. At least within the PAP, we select on the basis of merit, and we are also totally unsentimental about dropping people. It’s almost a samurai code. We’re not a group of friends who got together one night and decided we want to run Singapore and enrich ourselves.”

Now tell me, how not to hold him to these words. He has spoken on behalf of PAP, the party. How not to hold the PAP accountable to these words?

When you are good, no need to advertise, action counts. Its when too many advertisement to show how good you are, usually its no good, and thats what our elites are good for.

Well, if that is what they call samurai code, lol, the samurais of old will have to commit Seppuku.

and that’s a nice quote…so there is no secret in SG? now we know that’s true…no secret but there is a hush hush and vague answers + beating around the bush and tai chi…

It is an art where all PAP enlistees have to be put through to attain perfection.

When caught with food in the mouth, discreetly cover it with your hands, make no eye contact and hum a tune. Try to make your getaway with small steps.

Where is the samurai sword to live by the samurai code?

If there is one, Wong Kan Seng would have been chopped for MSK’s escape.
LHL would have to go for bringing in the minibombs.
GCT would have to go for allowing these minibombs to explode in our faces.
LKY would have to go for the mentoring that produced these imbeciles.

The list goes on and on and on. In short, the whole PAP has to ( as you’ve said it) commit Seppuku.

Dare to talk integrity when there is none.