NTUC Chief Lim Swee Say
LABOUR chief Lim Swee Say wants companies to put Singaporeans at the end of the queue when shrinking the number of their rank and file workers. Mr Lim believes the way to go in the current downturn is for firms to let non-Singaporeans go first, by not renewing the contracts and work permits of their foreign workers. ( Straits Times – 5 Dec 2008 )
Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong
If we just send away the foreign workers now, it will do us harm. For example – companies which are already in difficulty and they hire half foreign workers and half Singaporeans and you tell them that foreign workers must go out. And when you take Singaporeans, his cost will go up and the company may close. And if the company closes, even the half who have jobs may lose their jobs. ( Lee Hsien Loong, 8 Nov 2008, CNA )
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If you cannot convince them, confuse them!
Hi BL,
I missed that point, yup, both from the same GRC. But I am a very optimistic kind of guy. LKY is, what, 85 yrs old? Very soon. Might be sooner than the next election, perhaps?
Truth hurts, that’s why we protect you by lying to you.
But we can’t lie to you, so we confuse you.
JTYS
35) logicalman
i think we both share the same idea…personally, i also feel that gahmen needs to take more measures before recommending retrenchment…but what they are doing now is more of the opposite?
now,some pro gahmen will say that the gahmen has already done their best…retrenchment is the only way left.
First we should make redundant the post of MM and SM. These post were created to accomodate the retiring PMs and which many view as honorary positions . I believe the salary (while still receiving pension I believe) and the administrative cost of maintaining these two offices will save the taxpayers a lot of money, which can be used for assisting of the needy during the present hard times. It will also silence the critics of the PM, who claim that he is not capable enough to run the show himself like most PMs and need both the SM and MM to support and protect him.
Second, the government is run with taxpayers money and thus there is need to run a lean ship instead of a bloated one. Like the MPs of Bukit Batok have proven, 4 can do the job of 5 equally as well. So we can logically cut down on the number of MPs, (Extremely well paid part-timers) per GRC. Do we actually need so many Ministers/Deputy/Secretary/MPS to run such a small country?
We should retrench workers who does not contribute effectively to the company , irregardless of nationality…
Well, in the case of our govt..I guess PM Lee should get the boot for having less contribution to the country..base on his fat paycheck..
lim believes “the way to go in the current downturn is for firms to let non-Singaporeans go first, by not renewing the contracts and work permits of their foreign workers…”
it sounds nice . But what is the Concrete Effect of words from him?
any effect?
what is the INCENTIVE for employers? if no incentive, what kind of effect does he hope to get?
how to QUANTIFY the effect of what is said?
what would make employers Keep singaporeans?
how to MEASURE the success of his efforts?
why would employers choose to let go of contract workers over singaporeans given that contract staff gives them the flexibility less found in permanent citizen employees? and its generally agreed that contract staff are cheaper.
lim, can advise or nots? else clarifys or nots?
For your info, some companies are operating on half day part-time basis already. Their pay is of course reduced in proportion to their working hours.
There is so much companies can do as orders are hard to come by. Don’t take me wrong here. I am against retrenchment but sometimes there is simply no other way. Companies also need to sail the whole ship through turbulent waters. Sometimes by trimming staff, others may live to work another day.
The bigger the company, the more that they will need to trim staff as their payroll is enormous. Some may even have a payroll percentage of more than 60% against other fixed operating costs.
Sad to say, staff remains the easiest to trim in times of crisis. You cant easily reduce other fixed costs such as rental, infrastructure and shipping. Staff can be fired the next week and immediately the operating cost is reduced in proportion to the cut. You also want to remove those dead wood out of your organsaition.
This is the sad real world of corporations.
and your point is?
If every company treat their staff in such a manner, as dispensable asset that they will offload in a crisis, it will not foster loyalty and commitment between its employees.
like what we have actually mention above, tax, interest rate etc may be reduce to help ease the burden before retrenchment. but of course, that is easier said then done.
How come no mention on FW levy? Govt collecting FW levy from the employers amounting to millions of dollar. Whereas employers for citizen do not pay levy.
No 55 SZ – the Govt’s best is whatever they can to help PAP stay in power. They can’t really be bothered about retrenchment. Even those in the non-elite category of the civil service are shown the door in an indirect manner once they pass 40 years of age, so that new & younger citizens can join the ranks. Of course, for those in the elite category, they are repackaged as seniors or mentors, or take turns to warm the top seats in GLCs or other Govt ministries, but this is another story altogether.
Actually, if you ask me, they are quite happy when things are gloomy and triggered by external causes since they don’t really foot the bill or get the blame when it comes to social costs. It’s the paying citizens and businesses that do. Even if you look at NGOs and VWOs, they provide an essential service that’s mostly funded by public monies, while fiscal revenues continue to be channeled towards investments, overseas ventures, and what nots. It’s true they do build new roads, tunnels & hospitals, re-lay cables, re-pave roads once in a while, but these are just the stuff that people can see. The social costs of unemployment and poverty, as well as those of the middle-class struggles are all conveniently blamed on lack of skills upgrading, unwillingness to do take on jobs now taken up by foreigners, unrealistic expectations, etc; hence, the myriad of acronyms like SPUR, FLOW, ICAP and ElectRON. And by the way, more taxpayers’ monies are yet spent to drive these programmes, and more revenues generated through affiliated or authorized partners in these programmes, while trainees don’t necessarily end up with a better job.
Sorry to digress a little here.
Think about the mid-career professionals who are considering teaching as reported by CNA. How many are doing this to fulfill a childhood ambition and how many are driven to it? I happened to hear a student making a remark about his teacher teaching because he cannot find a job elsewhere. And I happened to know of many teachers opting for early retirement because they can hardly cope. And I happened to know of school counsellors becoming depressed by the cases they handle in school.
Retrenchment, social costs – who REALLY cares? Not the PAP for sure. If you are reduced to staying at the beach, it’s because you are too fussy, not driven enough to upgrade your skills, or too unrealistic in your spending. For seniors clearing tables at foodcourts, at least they have a job in their golden years to keep them from becoming senile, like our recycled PMs and the opening ceremony-loving president.
Heh, in local context, it will be, staff can go first before gahmen reduce tax and levy.
however, employers need to do CPF contribution for citizens instead of the levy right?
63) Logicalman
i got what you mean, and i think there will be quite a number of people who share e same view as u
which part of the ministers is braindead?
when maggie thatcher as prime minister
of britain
the first thinggie she did
was to cancel all work permits holder
including professionals liked doctors and nurses
i was lucky
i went in during the labour power governorship
although i was verbally abushed as a foreign talent a s shole
the immigration give me a hard time sucronised all my paperwork 100%
the custom give me a thourgout checkup including diggin me a r s hole just in case i might smuggle in some viagra pills
the next time
maggie thatcher enforced the alien law even further
all aliens workers will be subjected to an investigation before their annual work permit is extended
i know
because in singapore the british embassy called on my previous singapore company to verify my previous work experiences
and the british new government setup a new immigration section
they called it
no not SD6
or MI7
they called it
intelligence section
i know because
i was visited by 2 intelligence officers from the alien department
when they come to review my extention of renewal of work permit
many other alien workers was not so lucky
they couldn’t verified their previous employment records
they were forcible deported
~sigh~
If I am an employer, nevertheless I will prefer to engage locals than foreigners because locals have a permanent advantage over foreigners in terms of language and knowledge of local cultures eg. Singlish and dialects. Recently there have been so many factual reports of foreigners absconding away to overseas with our scholarships that have put me off.
> My answer is: retrenchment should be avoided. If demand drops by 20%, all workers should work 4 days (instead of 5 days) and take a 20% wage cut. The workers who are able to find alternative work elsewhere can resign. This allows the other workers to work more than 4 days and get additional income for the additional work.
In reality however, I think few companies would do this. Let’s face it, the workers who are able to find alternative work elsewhere are likely to be the better ones in the company. So which company would want to lose their best people?
moshedyan, did you say “British”?
Well, I would say they take their job too seriously. PAP today has a proven (patented?) system of self-renewal that is so unlike the chaotic multi-party democracy-believing & -practising nations elsewhere. That’s why you were eyed with suspicion all the time, while over here, the door is always open. Anyone can walk in, eat, sleep, dirty the toilet and move on, while you the resident have to bear with them, share your food and bed, pay their bills and clean up after them, all the while having them cast looks of disdain at you for becoming pampered, lazy, inept Singaporeans.
Those 60 and above should be retrenched first, let them retire early so that both the younger Singaporeans and Foeigners can continue working! Afterall, LIFE is not all about working. If the older workers jave accumulated enough then time to retire in this RECESSION hit country. If tge Economy picks up then we can consider extenting the retirement age.
It is very confusing when classifying Sr. Citizen! some consider 55 yrs. ….the old established British era retirement age. Some consider 60 and other consider 62 or even 65………..have a national definition of Sr. Citizen age minimum.
One thing is certain:
Our ministers will NEVER be retrenched or sacked….even if some of them were redundant or they cocked up!!!
Although I am sure TOC has already been keeping track of all the companies that retrenched and how many workers and types of workers they retrench (local or foreign, citizen or PR), I still feel the need to remind
all to also help keep track of retrenchment exercises , so that when it comes to discussing such issues, there is good collection of data to use.
my goodness, so many retrenchments already and still in 2008! :
1. DBS
2. SONY
3. Philips
4. ? the un-announced or small scale retrenchments? possibly?
AM I RIGHT TO SAY
THERE IS TECHNICALLY NO WAY TO PREVENT COMPANIES TO RETRENCH AS LONG AS THEY WANT TO?
ANYONE KNOWS ABOUT MINISTRY OF MANPOWER POLICIES PERTAINING TO THIS?
HOW ABOUT THEY JUST QUOTE A REASON?
73) Min Xuan
Look at what happen to our favourite local bank? was there any way to prevent them from retrenching the poor staff?
however, for most company, i don’t think they will resort to retrenchment…some company has resort to pay cut ranging from above 5%, this is a measure to see whether it will help the company…if the situation got worse, then maybe retrenchment will be done.
but losing a percentage of pay is better then losing jobs…
quoting MOM webbie:
“The Ministry of Manpower advises employers to carry out any retrenchment exercise responsibly, in consultation with the union (if the company is unionised). *but look at what that bank did*
The company should pay all salaries (including unconsumed annual leave, notice pay, etc.) to the employees on their last day of work.”
74) SZ on December 12th, 2008 10.53 pm
Thanks bro, for finding out this info and sharing with the rest, myself included.
From the statements , its seems like…….sigh. my worst fear …..sigh….
i think i better go bang….sigh…liao. :P
[i]69) Logicalman on December 12th, 2008 8.02 pm moshedyan, did you say “British”?
Well, I would say they take their job too seriously[/i]
their female grandmistress the prime minister
give them the green light to take actions
whatever is neccessary to cut down on foreign workers
which is why she won the elections
TWICED!
her biggest mistakes/failure
(which also let to her party downfall eversinced)
was the POLLTAXED ruling
instead of 1 household paying 1 samethinggie towncouncil monthly maintance sum for rubbish and whatever
maggie thatcher started the headtax(polltax) ruling
every household who have an adult above 18 would pay 1 same rate tax
so if 1 household have 5 adults
they pay 5 times the same towncouncil monthly bills
and if they refused to pay
the VAT(GST) intelligence officer will come to their house
well not arrest and shoot behind the garden walls
they ain’t gestapo yet
but to szie whatever property the house have for auctions to pay the polltax
today?
the labour government(labour..ring a bell?=commoner/peasant) still retained power
this labour government is
FOR the people
by the people
people’s power
Is the government even reading what we’re typing right here? We’re all voicing out for democracy! We’re all in need of modern, democratic leadership. One that is humane & focuses on people & not his own pocket. I’m really disappointed that the gov seemed to have ignored every suggestion for improvements we’ve brought up on TOC.
The problem is gov seems to always only look out for number 1 (he himself). He wants companies to survive to feed his pocket via the economy, & he’s bleeding everyone but himself to do this. He doesn’t care when people gets retrenched. In fact, he seems to support it. How would he feel if he puts himself in the shoes of the retrenched?
In fact, he doesn’t exactly have to bleed a lot to save companies & jobs. One way is to lower overhead costs like rental & utilities especially during the recession period. Companies would benefit from lower operating costs & thus, could keep more people in employment. He’d receive lower payments for overheads but this will be for the good for everyone in Singapore. But it seems like he ain’t even gonna try out this alternative ahead of retrenchment. ‘Cos he ain’t got nothing to lose when other people gets retrenched.
The company will do anything to cut cost … whether cutting foreign workers or locals.
My boss hired a guy from China at half of my salary to do my job. After 1 month, my boss gave me the termination letter.
The company saved cost. A China man got a job. I am out on the street.
That is the reality of life!
lim, what is your solution to DBS retrenchment? DBS as in the DEVELOPMENT BANK OF SINGAPORE.
Of the 900 reported , how many are actually retrenched in Singapore?
retrenchment : when jobs are scarce.
retraining : the worker work hard to study. will it get you a job when your sector is in scarcity of jobs? retrain to switch line? why would employers hire fresh but old staff when there is easy access to foreigners Young and Experienced and cheaper? business is about bottomline. Not your bottom.
I think only solution is : Create Jobs in banking sector. If you can. that is.
without jobs, retrain to PhD also like dat.
I propose the sinking funds be used to improve the estates
and create business and jobs for the unemployed living in HDBs.
1 stone, 3 birds.
if this implemented, remember, you heard it from me 1st.
feel free to use this suggestion.
the point is not about me.
In a downturn;
Companies retrench staff to cut cost.
Those not laid off have to pick up the work of their retrenched colleagues.
One retained staff does the work of two, maybe three.
The govt gives money for the retraining of retrenched staff.
The govt helps these retrained workers find new jobs (months after).
The govt gives pocket money to the citizens.
I don’t understand why the equation has to be so complicated.
Stop the retrenchments.
Give the ‘retraining’ money and the pocket money to these companies to help them out so that they need not retrench anyone. If need to, every staff to get a wage cut so that none is laid off.
I personally do not want the handouts (to be given) by the govt if I know it can be better used to save someone’s job so that he can continue to provide for himself and his family in such repressive climate.
Gemami, I agree with you, just as I have been calling for the Govt to do the right thing to lower the costs of doing business and living, but guess what, the Govt wants to know who needs help, and the way to do this is to squeeze until those who cannot take it cry out. Once these have received help (oh, and fallen below the poverty line, by the way), they will be beholden to their “benefactor”.
Guess what, God sends rain and sunshine to all & sundry, regardless of whether they are rich or poor, powerful or weak, evil or righteous. Our Govt prefers a higher standard, giving water and light only to those who are dying; everybody else see the utility companies or go to court if they cannot pay. That’s what retaining the high taxes and giving financial assistance is all about. And by the way, not all who are perishing get help from the Govt; a significant number are helped by self-help associations, churches, temples, mosques and VWOs funded with private & public donations.
dEAR Citizens.NMP,MP,Ministers
We the people of Singapore are paying you a sky high salary, to fix problems like this.
If so you don’t know that your inability to fomulate policies, to resolve issues like this trickles dowwards and takes it’s toll on the people on the ground who are PAYing your salary.
There is no point is saying that Singaporeans cost more to hire when we compare the amount of money we are PAYING you to RESOLVE issues to being with.
Where’s the root of the problem ?
Hi logicalman,
This PAP govt is a really strange one.
To those at the top, particularly within its own circle, it seems that they are never rich enough even with the exhorbitant salary each is getting. They need further help to boost their paychecks.
At the lower end, where the people are concern, the poorest of the poor are never too poor for them to render help to these poor folks. Singaporeans can go source them out and help them on their own. This govt do not think they are poor enough to need help.
I am sure you have heard it before where the PAP govt harps on how well off Singaporeans are and that the poorest in the country could even afford at least a tv set and a fridge. See, we are never so poor that the govt needs to step in. This is the cloud in their eyes that they are living with and our poor folks are paying the price.
No wonder in yesterday’s ST, we saw three PAP MPs sort of reprimanding their youth wing members for being ‘yes’ men. They are beginning to realise that they have not been receiving honest feedbacks from their grassroots, but yet do not have the balls to admit it openly.
These MPs are now positioning themselves to come to the ground. We’ll see if this is another ‘talk big’ act to hoodwink the people again. Time will tell.
Can someone please tell me where is the root of the problem
1) The Citizens ?
2) The policy ?
3) The PAP govt ?
4) The Slogans ?
Hi gemami,
Engaging the public is what the Govt needs to do more, so as to add a dose of reality & moderation to policy formulation and implementation. Yesterday’s Today paper (pardon the pun) has this piece about handling angry residents. Here’s what Mrs Lim Hwee Hua said,
In an interview with the People Action Party’s (PAP) Petir magazine, Mrs Lim said one conclusion she drew from the saga was that it boiled down to trust. “In the past, we used to engage the people less and they questioned less. Now they want to engage the Government more. That doesn’t mean they trust the Government less, it means that trust has to be continually earned and it has to be the focus all the time.”
.
This “greater pushback and disagreement” is something the party will have to come to grips and “move along with”, she said, by engaging more — especially online.
.
“We need more Net-savvy members, more activists who can better explain policies and who are continually thinking of new ways of doing things … :It is more than pure support that we increasingly need. The members must also be able and prepared to handle angry residents,” said Mrs Lim, who is also Senior Minister of State (Finance and Transport).
This sounds good, except that it’s not the first time we have heard of such calls. I don’t doubt the sincerity of folks like Mrs Lim and I have personally worked with PAP MPs and luminaries who are genuinely concerned and demonstrate a desire to connect; it’s perhaps the implementation down the chain that has failed in some instances.
Let’s hope they will do better in the coming year.
Hi Blind Man on 86,
I think it’s 3, and the reason for that is that it’s bloated, out of touch with the people, and has sacrificed the basics of nation-building in its eager pursuit of excellence on the world stage. Today, we are no longer just a little red dot. We are well-known, not just in Asia but throughout Europe, Middle East and the Americas. However, to everything, there’s an opportunity cost. Did our so-called “success” come at a heavy price? Did we become successful by taking short cuts (read: riding on the coat-tails of big brothers & sisters like US and China) or by building up strengths that will last (see South Korea, India & China)?
Hi Logicalman,
I agree and I also think there is a wind blowing within the PAP camp that is stirring them into action. Possibly TOC is now giving them a run for their money.
There have been numerous articles written in recent times about engaging the people online and I am afraid I have to agree that they are doing this because there is a need for them to come online to push their agenda and not because they are coming here to address our concerns.
Why do they need net-savvy people, activists and policy consultants? Where is the common man inside PAP? Why is the common man absent? Why can’t they see this?
Look at TOC, even broken English and haphazardly written posts are accepted they way they are. This is where the PAP will lose out on – because they are not sincere. They need a heart transplant before they can prove to us that they have changed or intend to change their ways, that they are as common as us.
Post 83 to 85 are very well thought through. These Commenters are raking their brains and reflecting the schemes, the selfishness and the heartlessness of the Leadership.
Yes, the Leadership have been scheming to get the people(electorates) to owe it(leaership) the gratitudes, to get thm ‘beholden’ to the Leaders.
One thing for sure, the leaders love money more than they love the people.
puppy.
Hi Gemami,
I subscribe to this Biblical principle: whether they preach the Gospel out of a sincere heart or out of envy, what matters is that the Gospel is preached.
In the same way, whether they come online to push their agendas or to listen, as long as there’s engagement between the public and the Govt, that’s good enough to begin with.
And you’ve got a good point there for the PAP & any aspiring politician & leader. Feedback is invaluable, regardless of whether it comes in the form of broken English, pictures (read: kangaroo in gown), other languages or dialects. It’s often when we listen, then we become wiser and more respected. Since you have dispensed a tip for them, I will throw in another free:
Be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to get angry.
Hi Blindman,
Answer: the polygamous marriage of all.
Logicalman and gemami,
you have both provide a very nice insight. personally, even if the gahmen tries to engage more netizens etc for feedback, i will seriously doubt their sincerity too, as shown by past happenings. like what you mention, they are here for their own agenda.
so i guess even when the “call” for more involvement is been sung, i doubt our voice will be heard…
Hi Logicalman,
I do have a bit of problem with people who preach. Preaching is usually one dimensional and it is carried out because the preacher is already bought into what he is preaching.
Coming online to engage the citizens must never be seen to be achieving this end, that is, to preach to all and sundry that the ‘gospel’ they are preaching is the only acceptable truth or solution to their problems.
When the preacher holds firmly to this belief, then all forms of engagement becomes a show. There is danger in this sense, and this is what I think the PAP is attempting to do when it says it has to engage netizens to ‘set records straight’. That is why the need for net-savvy PAP activists to be roped in to do the job.
Hi SZ,
Like what Logicalman has said, it is a good start that they are even making plans to listen more closely to us. Whether the end result meets their purpose remains to be seen. Our hope must be that whatever the outcome, it must go along the way to make life better for the ordinary folks like most of us are.
We can continue to doubt their intention or whether it will be effective, but we must also be hopeful because if our voices really matter, then we too must prepare ourselves to contribute as best, as honest and as sincere as we can.
The strange thing is, the Singapore government thinks of nothing about losing billions of dollar trying to propr up the US and other Western economies, ensuring that THEIR citizens stay employed but they will not hesitate to sacrifice the Singapore workers at the slight blip of recession,
Now you see why a single party is such a bad idea? It contains all the best and brightest, so who’s going to defeat the poor and the helpless?
Retrenchment is unavoidable in this current Global meltdown!
If overseas HQ say CUT….then it is to be followed downstream and nothing can stop it from happening.
The WEST is used to retrenchments because they are in the welfare state mode so the retrenched workers can get some breathing space and wait for the next employment opportunity.
We will be 44 yrs next year and in numbering in chinese says it all so go and figure out what 2009 will be in store?………..more and more retrenchments on the way as we discuss on this issue.
So expect the worst in 2009 at age 44 yrs of Independence!
Hi Gemami,
Guess you are right again…we shall continue to provide any contribution that we can muster, and hopefully something can be achieve. I mean, we will have done our best.
97) Joko
“Retrenchment is unavoidable in this current Global meltdown!”
is quite true, however it can be kept to a minimum, and shouldn’t be use when the first sign of reduce growth occur. just like what i mention, some companies decide to reduce pay by a certain percentage so that all the staff can stay employed, instead of cutting staff to ensure that the remainder get their original pay. Thus, retrenchment may be avoidable. However, if alot of companies employ the approach of retrenchment without really serious consultation and deliberation * you know which company* then it will be GG for all the those affected
and don’t forget, in countries with strong union, when it comes to retrenchment, it won’t be as simple as just giving the order and it will occur
HI all,
Retrenchment is a known thing when we hit a recession, but what about the taxes or national reserves that are paid by the citizens ? Can we apply the following policy during the recession period ?
Have welfare for those afftected.
Have a minimum wage
Those affected will also have a certain level of medical coverage if required
This would be a short term stimulus till the economy picks up, and I dont think the money will LEAK out of this country as spoken wisely by our PM
Why can’t the NMP’s propose CREATIVE ideas that may lead to a solution for SIngporeans during though times? Why the silence ?
The only time to test a persons ability or inability is during a crisis. This will expose your true self and talent or lack of talent …….. ??
What do you see ?
MM will have the final say on who shd go first, foreigners o locals. Remember the issue on population? MM decided that it shd be 5.5m instead of 6.5m.
has anyone ever wondered?
Let’s say the elections is in 2009. and that people are really unhappy with the government and we throw the important people out of office, for eg PM Lee, MM Lee, SM Goh and some of their ministers. What is going to happen to their positions? Is SAF going to be called in? just wondering. any answers please? thanks!