(1) You can’t use an event in 1948 to justify an occurrence now. I think this is a classic fallacy in moral arguments concerning the Middle East.

(2) If Hamas is the government of the Palestinian territories, then firing rockets and mortars into Israel is an act of war. Same with Lebanon. Hezbollah (part of the Lebanese government) kidnapped Israeli soldiers.

(3) Palestine is not surrounded by Israel. Israel can’t close all of Palestine’s borders. Just the ones between Israel and Palestine.

Dear Davin Ng,

In 614AD- the persians (muslims) sacked Jerusalem.
The Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem is destroyed by Muslim armies.
In 1009- Caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, founder of the Druze sect and sixth Fatimid Caliph in Egypt, orders the Holy Sepulcher and all Christian buildings in Jerusalem be destroyed.

The Israelites have been on THEIR land. Muslim armies invaded and took that land forcefully away from them. It took World War 2 and the Holocaust to convince the UN that they should be given their land back.

Hamas is committing an act of war but revisiting the sins of past muslims upon the present.

Those who fail to remember history are doomed to repeat it.

Israel’s fabricated rocket crisis
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/9965

US Must Reevaluate Its Relationship With Israel
http://www.antiwar.com/orig/ritter.php?articleid=12064

Wandering Who?
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20675.htm

If Americans (and the World) Knew
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

What Christians Don’t Know About Israel
http://www.doublestandards.org/halsell1.html

U.S Aid to Israel
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

i’ve given up on that conflict. the world is never and not meant to be peaceful.

i don’t think he was trying to justify anything. he was attempting to draw parallels between the holocaust and israel’s actions back then.

I find it strange how in your entire article, you failed to mention even once the culpability of Hamas in this entire episode. No doubt Israel is partially responsible for the death and carnage, but Hamas knew perfectly well this would be the reaction of Israel the moment they fired rockets into Israeli territory. They knew the price of their actions would be death and carnage unleashed unto their OWN people. But do they care? They even choose to fight in territories in which they know the innocent civilians would suffer collateral damage using women and children as their meat shields.

What choice does Israel have? Continue to do nothing while Hamas rain rockets on their people in their own land?

Israel would want nothing better than to be left alone. Unfortunately this is exactly the result Hamas is looking for. They knew many people would died as a result of their irresponsible actions, but they still went ahead and did it anyway knowing people like you would immediately condemn and criticise Israel for any retaliatory actions they will take.

You speak as if Israel is trying to exterminate the Palestinians when infact it is Hamas who has stated time and time again their ultimate objectives is to drive the Jews into the sea.

The ones who ultimately should be held responsible should be Hamas.

My simple suggestion for peace is-

IF it wasn’t yours, RETURN IT and leave.

If while it wasn’t yours, and you squatted there for a while and the owners returned, it’s time to LOOK of the idiots that let you stay there cos they took it by force in the first place.

Palestinians should look to Egypt and their wealth of oil to fund a new Palestinian state- rather then continue to fight for what wasn’t theirs in the first place.

there is a chinese saying
“yuan yuan xiang bao he shi liao”
Let them fight until they both feel the need for peace. There is so much thing for us to do for our very own country.

2) Percevale

So in fact, the old aggressor who was driven away is now acting like a victim? I will say that Israel rightfully belong to the jews/isrealites

From what I know Israel is created by the west. The land belong to which side is not for us to determine, to see. From what I see, Israel is the big gangster and Palestinian is a small gangster. When both are equally bad, there is no point to waste time on them. The fault is the leaders of their countries and not their people.

We won’t solve anything. This feud started from Biblical times.
Enough said when Hamas chose to hide their armaments and war impliments amongst civillians and their continuing harrassment of rockets into Israel from these same places. Israel (from reports) claim to have warned them to flee before they bombed them..
What do you do as Israel? Hamas today, Hizbollah another……..

So I suppose the first 2 commenters would readily and immediately vacate their house if I brought documentation to show that the owner they had bought from had fraudulently acquired it from me, yes?

Humans need a ‘us’ and ‘them’ paradigm by nature. Racism, sexism, xenophobia – they are all manifestations of this inherent nature. However, the portrayal of the Palestinians as the ‘bad guys’ is incorrect. As the author of this article suggests, both parties are to blame but it is morally deplorable to only chide one party (Palestine/Lebanon) whilst turning a blind eye to the other’s (Israel) actions.

As rightfully pointed out, this is all infantile…

My vote goes to the Israelis. It is the Hamas who want to eliminate Israel, not the other around. The suffering of the Palestinians was created by those extremists.

agree with myvote.

i also find this article skewed.

Both parties are playing to the gallery to their respective audiences. Both are
facing coming elections in their respective states. both were trying to act tougher
than their oppositions .Its no concidence they are taking this time to flex their
muscles. It’s the common people who suffer.
Politics is still a dirty word

Know what dudes, I think these two idiots should just bomb each other out of existence. It’s high time to have some peace and quiet on this planet.

israel has no right to exist on occupied land.Palestinian and Hamas are defending what is rightfully theirs.Hamas is not an extremist but are Freedom Fighters.Israel are funded by the Big Devil usa..Palestine deserve our utmost respect and salute for not bowing down to Imperialist and Devils.It is a shame that most Singaporeans have been brainwash by the Devils media.This struggle is not about Religion but about Dignity and a struggle by the Palestinians to take back what is rightfully theirs.As long as israel are allowed to exist there will be no Peace.Learn to seek the truth instead of believing what Big Devil and its dog are saying.I believe Singaporeans are not STUPID.but if they continue to believe that israel has the right to exist,then you are indeed STUPID…

Quoted from Marc on post #4…

“I find it strange how in your entire article, you failed to mention even once the culpability of Hamas in this entire episode.”

This link was posted by Jumbo previously on another thread..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

if you continue to believe that Hamas started this episode… then… i dont know what else to say.. unless you say this article is lying..

quoted from Tan “Know what dudes, I think these two idiots should just bomb each other out of existence. It’s high time to have some peace and quiet on this planet.”

If nobody wants to help or be a fair judge… thats should probably be the last resort… but if it is ok for USA to continue to give billions to Israel for military aid…try sending some money to Hamas or Palestine… you will probably end up in jail accused of supporting terrorism..

if Israel is not a terrorist in this world… maybe we should call them a “joyist”.. they must bring joy to the Palestinians/Muslims and the world…

Sorry to keep posting… I am happy to see people like David seeing things from the other angle too… Thanks for the article David..

I do share the same opinion as you… Israel can get away if anything while the USA is its best friend… hope for some fairness in this world… is that too much to ask for?

whoever commits a crime should be punished… whether is Osama or Obama… Israel or Saudi or Singapore… then there is Justice and Fairness…

this issue is clouded by religious and racial affinity. the land belongs to the people who were living there, the palestinians and the original jews, not the european jews transported there by the Allies after the second world war. that act alone is the seed to the killings betweent the jews and the arabs. it will go on forever unless one side is able to decimate and wipe out the other totally from the face of the earth.

the middle east would be a different place if the americans would have given a tract of red indian land to the displaced jews. florida or california would have been nice. and today’s bloodshed would have been avoided. but the mindset then was not very friendly to jews in the united states. and arab land was easier to take away. the british colonised it and controlled it then.

less anyone forget, the palestinians and jews were semites, normadic tribes of the land we called israel today. who is taking whose land?

to argue whose land is whose is akin to arguing the chicken and the egg question.

and that the argument will go on forever.

I think we cannot see the Palestinian point of view because we are drowned by popular views in the media. When the conflict escalated, I started to watch Al Jazeera and I was shocked at the carnage committed by Israel and the US. Even leaving aside the conflicting historical background, I cannot accept the brutalities that Palestinians suffer in this war. Israel should restrain itself knowing they have the fire power. It is a great shame for Bush in his last days, to be partisan. With his words of support, Israel is emboldened and I believe committed even more atrocities. Peace can never be achieved with violence. Israelis cannot keep believing themselves to be the holocaust victims by making others victims of their acts. What also shocked me in this conflict is the behaviour of Egypt in placing obstacles to humanitarian aid into Gaza. Are we no longer human?

me #19 – I agree. People can only draw context to the current conflict to a certain point. Beyond that, it is pretty much pointless.

To people like SZ #7, you only went as far back as what the bible said … that god told the Israelites to essentially take the land from other people whom god did not consider worthy of the land. I believe that now-long-dead civilization certainly would not agree with your view.

Ignoring biblical accounts, that which was the kingdom of Israel did not come about simply because the people there said one day “we’re Jews, we’re one people, one nation!”. It was taken, just like in the “good old days”, by force from someone else who used to live there.

Anonymous #1 – please do enlighten the rest of us *why* taking the particular event of driving Palestinians away from their homes in 1948 is a classical fallacy that does not apply to the current conflict? I can see how taking an event from 614AD (which some people seem to suggest justifies the action of today) can be strange, but some people evicted from their homes in 1948 are still alive today, possibly still living in Gaza.

Violence is an act of extreme emotion. Both sides need to tone down and start to see the need to talk, the need to compromise. Imho, the state of Israel is a fact on the ground – Hamas needs to recognize that. At the same time, Israel needs to right the wrongs committed against the Palestinians whom they drove out. There were lands the Zionists bought and then there were lands they took. Further acts of violence only makes it that much harder to talk, much less come to an agreement on how to live side-by-side.

Frankly, I do not see much hope anymore. This will be driven to the point where one side completely subjugates the other, pretty much what the Americans and Canadians did to the tribes of North America. The “winner” will have to live with the scars of their “victory” several hundred years from now.

21) Lee Chee Wai

If you have to put it this way, it will be another question of chicken or egg first again? those “now-long-dead civilization” will also have annex other tribes and those tribes before them has done then too. which civilization wasn’t build up by annexing another tribe or civilization?

and to quote Plato again, only the dead has seen the end of war. even if we see the end of this conflict, another will appear elsewhere. as long as there are humans around, war is inevitable. we can all do our best to avoid war, but sadly it will still occur.

Hamas fired rockets into Israeli territory. Which country tolerates rockets flying into its borders daily?

Sure there is a lot of history to go through about who did what and who owns what and so on. But the simple matter is the Israelis in recent years never acted except when they are provoked. All they want is their home and peace….of course there is also the counter argument that that is NOT their home and they deserve no peace.

All that the Hamas ask for no other nation will ever give not just Israel especially when it is a super power in the region. The Hamas will pursue a goal that has no practical way to accomplish. What does firing rockets into Israeli territory achieve except to provoke?

There are now 2 pieces of land returned to the Palestinians. They can go on with their lives, send their kids to school, and make something out of it. The people in the West Bank choose to go on and make their lives better. The people in Gaza want to continue to fight the old fight and to revive the lost war….what do they hope to accomplish doing this? I really don’t know. To them winning is to get their land back expell the Israelis ,,,why should Israeli as a regional superpower tolerate that.

If they want peace, all they need to do is stop provoking Israel with rockets. It is actually that simple! I take it that they don’t want peace, so this is the fight they have been asking for. ..and the Hamas position their weapons, rockets and command centers in residential areas to ensure collateral damage is high. The Israelis are tired of war and fighting, but they have little choice.

They should not be burdened anymore by their history. Neither side can be said to be inocent. Blaming each other for the past atrocities isn’t going to stop the killings.
If they really want to do their own people good, both sides should stop what they are doing now. Afterall, Arabs and Jews share the same ancestors. Aren’t they killing their own kin?

as far as i’m concerned, the israeli govt gave back the gaza strip to palestinian control in 2003 under the ‘land for peace’ initiative, more like ‘land for rockets’ now!..even uprooting jewish communities from gaza and enduring domestic backlash for it
..shouldn’t gazans be appeased that gaza was given back to them? the israelis gave in to gazan demands
if the residents of gaza booted out fatah and voted in hamas, then all i have to say is that the gaza residents brought it upon themselves..
agree with lucky tan (no.23)..prove to the the world that you can create something meaningful with whatever you’re given, instead of whining in front of international media..gazans were given 5 years to do this..
..israel occupied gaza was a problem, now that israel has left gaza completely, it still became their problem!
..and now when gazans suffer, where are Hamas’ leaders? In lebanon giving televised speeches calling for gazan solidarity? interesting leadership!

All men are equal unless…
But in Singapore, some self created MIW creatures even think that they are Gods!

Historical amnesia and Gaza

http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3058

Lucky Tan – “If they want peace, all they need to do is stop provoking Israel with rockets. ”

i have posted this link previously…. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

I quote from the above link…

“A four-month ceasefire between Israel and Palestinian militants in Gaza was in jeopardy today after Israeli troops killed six Hamas gunmen in a raid into the territory.”… why are people saying its palestinian’s fault? why?

If Israel wants peace… then they should not kill so many people.. the death toll is now 4 to 660…

if i kill your entire family… and tell you lets have peace based on my condition… u think you accept it? then next week i kill another nephew of yours.. thats after taking over your house.. your land.. and your farm..

Got this from http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200916191833159347.html

“Everybody knows that 75 per cent of the people of Gaza are refugees. Everybody knows that Israel disengaged from Gaza militarily, but occupies it economically and politically and also it besieges Gaza militarily.

“Israel would say, “what would any normal country do if they were threatened by rocket fire? They would act”.

“But Israel is not a normal country, it is an occupying country, a colonial country and the people of Gaza are under siege.”

7/1/09

HI Davin Ng-Let us not piety those HAMAS who are the earth most wanted terrorists and they are unrependtable and cannot be trusted. The Israelis have the right of self defence and they have tolerated the HAMAS nonsenses ie firing rockets into Israel whenever they like to fire, they just fire (before HAMAS and peace treaty with the PLO, it was the PLO and their FATAH arm). These terrrorists killed more Israelis over the years then the Israelis killed the Plastenians and in war killing of the innoncent people are inevitable. Let us not be mislead by those news agencies who are pro HAMAS, they only interested to sell their news. As Singaproeans, we must remain objective and focus and not being influence by these baseless news agencies that Israelis are killing innoncent people in GAZA.

Regards
Andrew Chuah

While the humanitarian situation is dire, nobody asked the Hamas leadership to squander their electoral mandate by firing rockets into Sderot and other Southern Israeli towns.

They’ve been given what they asked for, which is the Gaza territories. In a way, Israel is passing to them the responsibility to upkeep security and stability, but they choose to pursue a path that they know will end in conflict.

The blood of the Palestinian people are on the hands of Hamas too.

Andrew Chuah… You mentioned “Let us not piety those HAMAS who are the earth most wanted terrorists and they are unrependtable and cannot be trusted.”

why is Hamas “world’s wanted terrorist”? did they attack Singapore? or USA? or England? or they are the world’s most wanted because Israel say so? Do you trust the Israelis? Everything they say is true?

should we pity the Isrealis then? should we pity them for taking over other people’s land? should we pity them for having so advance weaponry and using it on defenceless people? should we pity them for living in fear of rockets when they also anyhow can kill people? do u think the people living in Gaza has no fear?

you also mentioned “These terrrorists killed more Israelis over the years then the Israelis killed the Plastenians and in war killing of the innoncent people are inevitable.”

if you can show some proof to me that your above statement is true… i will have to rethink my position immediately… lets make it easier for you… how about the last 5 years? if you want to go all the way.. pls do so… i could learn something from you…

Hi Davin, you need to know that the Hamas’s charter calls for an end to Israel.
sad to say, whatever you have written is very much a one sided article….

Muhammad # 30 – Thank you for the link given. But you need to know that the Guardian has a reputation for left wing political bias and especially on issue pertaining to Israeli – palestinian conflict….. So I won’t trust everything that is written…..

As outsiders to the conflict, it is good to read articles to see the perspective of BOTH sides.

Sometimes, the media have their own agendas and readers have to think for themselves.

Remember how almost every newspaper parroted the claim that there were WMDs (Weapons of Mass Destruction) in Iraq to mould global public perception so that Bush could “legitimately” invade Iraq?

But to date, no such weapons have been found.

So just because most newspapers report any issue in a certain way does not necessarily mean that they are right.

The media, is often controlled by entities who will use it to further the interests of the rich and powerful.

Let’s not be dismissive of either side and keep an open mind.

When the Palestinians voted for Hamas democratically they must bear the consequences.

Hamas started the war with Israel, they used mosques, schools, residential areas, university to launch rockets. Now they have to face the consequences for their actions

Arthur… thanks for pointing that Guardian is a left wing… I will accept that…

if there is a left wing… and a right wing… countries would be influenced accordingly depending on what they see on TV/newspapers… some more to the left and some to the right… why then do we need a veto for the USA in the UN security council to save Israel so many times?

if we assume all the arabs are pro palestinian or anti Israel… there are still so many non-arab countries right?… won’t they vote for Israel? if most of them vote against Israel… and USA uses its veto… isn’t there something wrong? is it possible that most of the other countries are also anti Israel?

should we not then look more to the left? cos we are served mostly with the right and thats why most of us are on the side of the Israelis

Hamas are not true Muslims though they may claim to be very devout. Saudi Arabia is against them and do not recognise them.

This is what Mohammed Dahlan, 47, is the former head of security for Fatah in the Gaza Strip has to say about Hamas.

“People are afraid of the Islamists and no one in Gaza dares to express criticism. Otherwise they face imprisonment or even death. Just like Israel, Hamas shows no consideration for ordinary people — its fighters fire rockets right from the heart of residential areas.”

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,599459,00.html

Fighting has to stop otherwise more will be killed.

‘Muhammad’ it doesn’t matter you can accept or not.
Live by the rockets die by it.
Never forget the sword is a double edged blade.
Religion was never the issue. It’s men making it an scapegoat.

What is the difference between a terrorist and a patriot. Nelson Mandela was also a terrorist once upon a time and his ANC was also a terrorist organisation. Gazans voted in Hamas because of the ineffectiveness of Fatah. Why does the world not recognise a legitimate government?

Terrorists – Made in Israel

Sigh before the year starts – another war seems to have sparked off.

It looks as if the premonition of the year will start off badly.

I remember last year, the Sichuan earthquake in May was also started off by several cyclones in the US in Feb/Mar 08.

This year may be one of the hardest year that our small nation will face.

Already, a few of my friends have lost their jobs and more bad news will come after CNY.

As we brave for a tough year, let us face the future ahead with optimism and hope. We all need to uphold one another in this down time.

To me I think both the Hamas and the Israel are terrorists organization. The difference is that one of them uses the guise of a legitimate armed forces while the other is a rag-tag posse full of masked men.

I sympathise the palestinians. They are like a caged animal pushed to the corner and fighting back. Since nobody came to their aid, not even their pathetic rich arab neighbours, desperation drove them to terrorism.

Israel on the other hand, got most of their advance weaponry from its allies and enjoys an arrogance presence despite being surrounded by muslim states.

This conflict have gone too far and too long. Lets hope the EU can come up with some peace plan soon…Yes..Another peace plan..And this time ,lets hope it lasts longer..

eer
how come nobody seek my 3rd eyes?

either way
BOTH won’t give way
today you send me 1 bomb
tomorrow
i give you @ back
tit-4-tat
which is why
i kept harpin
WE
should not take SIDES….
1 is a buffaloe
the other is a bloomin bull

kapish?

talkin about equals
have you ever seen
an uzi trottin RABBI
which is a holy man
kicked the BBC camera man hard
who is actually tryin to filem an event
regardin the bombin of innocent women and children…

BBC woah
world news woah
fully NEUTRAL………….
also lanlaned kanna kicked…………..

Lee Chee Wai: Because it doesn’t help to solve problems. Let’s say you are in a dispute with a spouse/next door neighbor/name other party. You insist on bringing up every old dispute you ever had. Do you think the other person is going to want to come to the negotiating table with you?

What are the REAL problems in the Palestinian Territories?

(1) Massive poverty and a lack of real market opportunities
(2) A lack of basic infrastructure
(3) Severe overcrowding

I believe Israel SHOULD help with those things, in the same way Singapore helps (in an unfortunately high handed way) our neighbors in ASEAN. A stable neighbor with money doesn’t try to start a war.

But Israel can’t help with those things, because for all practical intents and purposes, it is at war with its neighbor. Whether Israel wants to help is something I’ll leave for less useful debate.

However, I would point out that Palestinians used to go to Israel to work. Like in many other places in the Middle East, Palestinians formed a major segment of the labor jobs there. However, all the suicide bombings etc. meant Israel decided to close off its borders.

There have also been Israeli moves to force Israeli settlers off fertile Palestinian land.

Finally, Israel does have Arabs in it who vote, and form political parties. There are also Israeli factions that are pro-Palestinian. To claim Israel is this monolithic anti-muslim monster is wrong and unhelpful. There are sabre-rattling hawk factions in Israel. But they aren’t all of Israel.

If we really want to go back in history, there are many examples of how holding a grudge or looking at legacies ended up screwing the nations that did it. Hitler rose to power partly because of the enormous debt the Allies forced Germany to incur after World War I.

In more modern times, every time a Japanese leader visits a war shrine, there’s a big hoo hah. The Mainland China/Taiwan issue. The Mahatir/Lee Kwan Yew rift, which goes all the way back to Tunku Abdulrahman (sp) and the Singapore/Malaysia split. Ask a person on the ground in any of those countries, and they’ll pretty much tell you that these things are nonsense. People in those countries are more interested in the business opportunities, etc. than in these legacy things. However, there will always be some old fuddy duddies who will insist these things are important.

In summary, I subscribe to the belief that good political decisions are based on the here and now, and on what the FUTURE will be like. The past is a good guide for decision making. But, we can’t be wedded to the past if we want to make good decisions TODAY.

It is fair to say that over the years the conflict over Palestine-Israel has evolved from an Arab-Jewish conflict into a Palestinian – Israeli, or, Palestinian-Jewish conflict, and a Muslim-Jewish conflict.

It would be foolhardy, however, to ignore the existence of a genuine conflict between the Arab countries and the West that has only a peripheral relation to the Palestinian issue, or to dismiss aspects of the Arab-Zionist and Muslim-Jewish conflict that always existed, were never fully resolved, and may very likely return to the fore after the basic needs and aspirations of the Palestinians are met.

The British, French and Americans, wanted to retain control over strategic and natural resources: namely, the Suez Canal and the oil resources of the Gulf countries. Syria and Lebanon were given to France as mandate countries based on the secret Sykes-Picot agreement and Palestine was given to Britain, based on the Balfour declaration. The Arabs considered that this arrangement a betrayal of British promises to them.

Beginning in 1936, the Arabs of Palestine revolted against British rule and against the Jewish national home promise of the League of Nations Mandate for Palestine, and the immigration of Jews to Palestine.

The Arabs rejected the Peel Report, which would have partitioned Palestine into a tiny Jewish state and a much larger Arab area, and ensured that the British would accede to Palestinian demands and close the gates of Palestine to Jewish immigration.

This intervention in the revolt in Palestine marked the beginning of the primacy of the Palestine conflict as an issue in Arab relations with the West, and the beginning of Arab intervention in that conflict.

The role of Palestine as an Arab-Western issue and as an issue in Arab national politics was extended in the 1940s, when President Roosevelt felt compelled to reassure King Saud that the United States would not back an independent Jewish state in Palestine, and with the formation of the Arab League. One of the express purposes of the Arab League was to prevent the formation of a Jewish state.

The Muslim dimension of the conflict is that Palestinian land was supposed to be a part of Dar al-Islam, the home of Islam. The Israeli capture of Jerusalem greatly enhanced and underlined the Muslim religious dimension.

With the Iranian revolution of Khomeini, Islamism became an increasingly potent political force in the Middle East, and therefore the Islamic dimension of the Palestine conflict assumed increasing importance as it was taken up by Iranians, by Salafi radicals in the madrassas and by Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda.

While some Arab hostility to the United States and the West is due to American support for Israel, the reverse is also certainly true.

Arabs and non-Arab Muslims are hostile to Israel because Israel is viewed as an outpost of Western civilization, and the “last outpost of Western Colonialism.” It is the dreaded Trojan Horse.

A Tunisian, Latif Chokri, stated in a dialogue:
Imperialist support for the Zionist institution has not decreased, simply because the institution is a convenient tool and spearhead for terrorising the peoples of the region, for laying hands on their resources, plundering their wealth and preventing them from uniting together and gaining their independence.

Palestinian antagonism to Zionism was, from the start, related to larger issues of Arab nationalism and resentment of the West, as well as to traditional Arab and Muslim attitudes toward Jews, and it would be a mistake to think that these larger issues could be resolved solely by ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, or even by resolving all the substantive issues that divide Palestinians and Israelis.

It is certainly true that hostility to Israel and Jews is fanned by the occupation and the plight of the Palestinians. Ending the occupation and the conflict will simplify US diplomacy in the region and improve sentiment toward Israel.

However, It is not necessarily the case that extremists would be satisfied with a resolution that left an intact Israeli state or that hostility to Israel would vanish if ever the Palestinian issue were resolved. Racist and xenophobic views would continue to threaten the peace and challenge the legitimacy of governments that had signed peace treaties with Israel.

It is even less likely that resolution of the Israel-Palestinian conflict would somehow magically resolve the very real conflicts between Western and Arab/Muslim interests in controlling the oil resources of the Gulf or the fiction created by differences in Western and Muslim cultural and political outlooks.

To say that the Jewish occupation of Israel is illegal is not correct because they were legally sold the land they now occupy. To say the Palestinians is wrong to fight for the land that rightfully belonged to them, is also not correct because they were (in their belief, as with the belief of all Arabs) hoodwinked by the West into selling their land to the Jews.

What a dilemma!

Now, with both being right in their stands, how can we resolve the situation without one party giving way? Impossible. That’s why all these killings are so stupid and mindless.

Both parties must come to the table with this understanding so that each can make a compromise and give up part of their stand. In this regard, I feel the Israelis have done enough when it gave occupation to the Palestinians in Gaza.

It is up to the Palestinians to appreciate this compromise, which in itself attracted much backlash from the Jewish community, and try to come to terms with their position. It is a fight for land space and must not be seen as an Islam vs Zionist/West battle, as egged on by those standing by the sides.

Gemani #49 – a nice writeup. Though I believe not *all* the lands of Israel were purchased by the Zionist movement. I am pretty sure most of Tel Aviv was bought but I’d be hardpressed to believe the portions of Jerusalem they now control were paid for.

Lee Chee Wai #50).

You’re right. The capture of Jerusalem took the conflict to a different dimension, that of the Muslims against the Jews. And this is where the Arab Muslim world was able to sustain its attack on the Zionist movement. It will not go away for as long as Israel continues to hold sway over this holy piece of land.

This is why when we look at the Palestine / Israel conflict, we must not allow these other issues to side track us from seeng the problem as a Palestinian / Israel issue, and not a Muslim / Jew issue. It may seem intertwined, but really, it should not.

Anonymous #48 – These people were, in some cases, illegally and unfairly displaced from their homes and they are possibly still alive today. It is not, as you put it, a neighbour’s dispute. You literally had your “neighbour” come in to take your house and toss you out onto the streets.

I don’t know about you, but if it happened to me, as long as I’m alive I don’t care if it is 40, 60 or 80 years ago. Justice would not have been served unless I get appropriate restitution. For me, an apology and reconciliation might be sufficient … but how do you think I would feel if this same “neighbour” decides to come down year after year to beat me up for throwing rocks at the windows of what used to be my house?

While I could never feel the same way my grandmother did, I can totally understand her intense hatred of the Japanese. She was lucky to survive those 3-4 years of hell but many others did not.

8/1/09

Hi Muhammad-I noted your posting *34 and let me address those points you have raised which had also been elaborated by other readers. The Israelis are peace loving people like us Singaporeans and I do trust the Israelis as they are very matured race and they have every right to their self defence.

I understand your position as put yourself as a Muslim first and being a Muslim first you are more inclined to be sympathetic and believe those news reports from the news agencys which are pro HAMAS and ultra Al Jazera plus those extremists Islamic nations like Iran, Syria, Libya. If you look at those moderate Islamic nations like Saudia Arabia, Egypt and Kuwait who are the very first to condem the HAMAS who had violated the peace treaty and went all out to provoke Israelis at all costs and firing rockets into Israel when they feel like it or “shiok”.

Next, in order to regain peace again in GAZA, the Israelis had to do what is necessary and protect its people by exercising their right of defence and hence, the killing of innocent people like women and childern are inevitable (part of war process). This happens not only in GAZA, even in Asia like Southern Philippines-Mindano and North Indonesia-Acheh where peace has prevailed.

Let us being citizen of Singapore remain foce and objective and not being influence by distorted news from pro HAMAZ news agencies like ultra Al Jazera and OIC controlled news agencies, even our neighbour up north Malaysia which I read on the net, its foreign Minister gave an ultimatium to the United Nations Security Council (this is nonsense and madness-Malaysia is a member of OIC).

Regards
Andrew Chuah

Gemani #51 – yah, it really is a complex problem. Muslims and Jews have lived in the same nations for hundreds of years prior to this conflict. It would be really sad if this is allowed to expand as such.

I feel really bad for the Palestinians really, as my friend puts it, for all the “support” they get from the Arabs they were supposedly not treated particularly well by the Arabs when they were in control of the region in the past.

there’s a report and video lower down in the article about the bombing of a school in Gaza, flying a white and blue UN flag, and where people were seeking refuge in….

http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/al-fakhoura-school-bombed-42-killed.html

Hamas is not right in launching rockets at Israel, but Israel is definitely wrong in their out-of-proportion response. Their so-called surgical strikes are claiming the lives of hundreds of innocent civilians…. Actually their surgical strikes seems to be a deliberate attempt to maximize collateral damage and antagonize Palestinians, Hamas and muslims all over the world.

If peace results from the deaths of those innocent civilians, perhaps their deaths won’t be in vain. But, all the bombings, carnage and death only serves to stoke the flames of hatred, violence and revenge even further…

and sadly, THAT seems to be what Israel is hopping for…

Gemami;

it is a fight for land and space. Resources, if I may say.

It is also an ideological, racial/cultural/religious(holy missions of jihad and crusading) differences which are more fatal than just wants of resources.

It is not just a dilemma, it will always be a dilemma.

And

ONLY THE PEOPLE OF THE WARRING STATES CAN SOLVE THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. Foreign participations beyond the negotiating table will only exacerbate and extend the conflict geographically, that is; beyond the boundaries of the warring states.

patriot

anybody who sit aroun
with any Jews
will know
its very very difficult to
adapt to their ^RULES^
now you know why Jews only do buisness with fellow Jews
even if you outsiders have money to deal with them
they will consider whether they want to see your face or not
~sigh~

Hi Patriot,

Touché. Resources too.

The differences you mentioned are ‘add-ons’, which are mostly the works of ‘outsiders’ rubbing salt into the wound and taking the conflict into areas that serve each own’s interests. This is the most saddest and damaging part of the conflict which have been allowed to take shape and intensify the situation.

It is a fight between Palestine and Israel for land space and resources.

Issues like, land space equal Islamic space, or, Zionist intrusion equals eventual conquest of Islamic values and faith etc. are but nothing more than outsiders provoking the situation to make gains for their own interests.

It is hard for Western inteference to take a step back because no matter what they do, there will always be the presence of provocation from the other Arab countries and the Muslim world, to make it a Muslim vs Jew conflict.

It is so obvious isn’t it that the solution can only come about; in your wise words; Only the people of the warring states can solve their own problems.

I strongly feel the Israeli army should not use methods such as white phosphorus shelling in such a densely populated area.

“Israel is believed to be using controversial white phosphorus shells to screen its assault on the heavily populated Gaza Strip yesterday. The weapon, used by British and US forces in Iraq, can cause horrific burns but is not illegal if used as a smokescreen.” More in this article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

And it doesn’t help when Ofer Shmerling, an Israeli civil defense minister, was quoted saying, ‘”I will play music and celebrate what the Israeli air force is doing.” as US US-supplied Israeli F-16 warplanes and Apache helicopters dropped bombs on Gaza.

More at http://worldwithoutwar.sg

Post I#49 [gemami] is insightful and commendable.

The present conflict between Hamas, or Palestinians, and Israel can only truly be resolved through UN intervention, with the two parties agreeing to a modus vivendi. Peace can only be achieved at the negotiating table, and until the parties involved are cognizant of this fact, their squabbling or fighting will never end.

To list all the methods Israel is using to make life impossible for the Palestinians in order to squeeze them out, but I can try: extra-judicial executions, administrative detentions (arrests and jail-time, often long-term, without charge), pervasive use of torture, house demolitions, destruction of olive trees and crops, withholding of building permits, check-points, curfews, closures,
manipulation of the water supply, and a wall that separates farmers from fields, students from schools, workers from jobs, patients from hospitals, all while illegal settlements continue to expand and encroach on Palestinian land.

Much is made of Palestinian terrorism, but not much is made of the fact that deaths of Palestinians outnumber deaths of Israelis in the conflict by about five to one. And not much is made of state terrorism, like IDF soldiers shooting up residential neighborhoods using U.S. made helicopter gunships, or demolishing homes on top of their occupants using U.S. made over-sized Caterpillar equipment. I am personally against Palestinian terrorism. I am against violence in general and I don’t think it does their cause any good. But Israeli former prime minister Ehud Barak disagreed with me when he said, in an interview with Gideon Levy in 1998, “If I were a Palestinian of the right age, I’d eventually join a terrorist organization.”

The American public in general, and the Jewish community in particular, are in a state of denial about Israel; about what America is supporting by giving Israel an astounding $15 million per day, beginning with myths about the history which are very persistent. Even though a generation of Jewish Israeli historians has debunked these myths, most people still believe, for example, that in 1948 there were radio broadcasts by Arab leaders ordering the Arab population to leave, so that they could “drive the Jews into the sea”, and once that was accomplished they could return. This myth is used to show that the Arabs deserved what they got. But those radio broadcasts were a fabrication. There are records of all broadcasts, they have been researched, and the truth is clear. In fact there were broadcasts ordering the population to stay put, and to return to their homes if they had already fled

http://qumsiyeh.org/richsiegel/

Rich Siegel:

By insisting that the world recognize Israel’s “right to exist”, it is, by direct implication, insisting that we accept this completely unjust status quo. Those who insist on Israel’s becoming a true democracy, the state of all of its people, are accused of calling for the “destruction of Israel”. The logic here is that the introduction of any policy that would change the artificial Jewish-majority demographic back into the naturally existing Arab-majority demographic would be, de-facto, the destruction of Israel.
This logic is based on the probability that an Arab majority would elect to end Jewish exclusivity, including the flag, the anthem, open immigration for Jews, and even the name Israel. But, if this is what the natural majority would call for, then this is what it should be. And it WOULD NOT MEAN the destruction of Israel, just a change from a society that is racist to the core, into a more just society.
http://qumsiyeh.org/richsiegel/

Rich Siegel:

A patriotic American uses free speech to express objection when he sees his country going down the wrong path. A good Jew follows the strong Jewish tradition of pursuing social justice, and does not cease to do so when he finds the Jewish community to be in error. I claim to be both a patriotic American and a good Jew. And I claim my right to free speech, guaranteed me as an American. I demand my right to express my opinions unmolested, and
to do so in this community. Anyone who thinks I’m a lunatic can avoid me. Anyone who wishes to express opposing views can do so in any number of fora. Anyone who wishes to engage me in a calm and respectful conversation will find me willing. Anyone who wishes to punish me for my views by taking a crow-bar to my car in the middle of the night again will likely find the police there the next time.
http://qumsiyeh.org/richsiegel/

Israel fires into Lebanon after rocket attack
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24888122-5003402,00.html

http://whatreallyhappened.com/
”
Remember the first day of the bombing campaign in Gaza where the Lebanese border patrol found a bunch of rockets set up and ready to fire into Israel? They destroyed them and Israel started flying warplanes over Lebanon trying to provoke a confrontation?

Well, looks like “someone” smuggled some more rockets over the border and now Israel has their excuse to expand this war into the wider regional conflict they plan to stick Barack Obama with.

“Bay way of deception, thou shalt do war!” — Motto of the Mossad

“All war is based on deception.” — Sun Tsu, “The art of War”

“Truth is the first casualty of war.” — Hiram Johnson
“

[i]WKC on January 8th, 2009 2.36 pm Post I#49 [gemami] is insightful and commendable.

The present conflict between Hamas, or Palestinians, and Israel can only truly be resolved through UN intervention,
[/i]

the UN is on the verged of bankruptcy
in a little mediterrian country
lied in between cyprus and greece
inhabited by
both the greeks and the cypriots
(you know the trojan horse story)
these 2 people are also against each other
partly dued to religion ground as well
the UN have a small peacekeeping force
was there after the 2nd world war
exact year i don’t recalled….
maybe till today…………..
so
UN is gettin pissed off and fedup
everytime a religious conflict arised…
take a last look in serbia
after tito died
what happenned
the malaysian send peacekeepers
just to protect the minority muslim eithnic group
instead of bein neutral
the europeans send peacekeepin troops there to be neutral
but endup rapin 1/2 of the women there
out of boredom…
and to make it worst
inflations/corruptions exist in the UN
(singapore rep was also charged/suspected of makin undertable funds)
so my fellow forummers
don’t ASSUMED the UN peacekeepers are God…………

Dear Jumbo,

If you would allow me ……..

We can continue to list down the atrocities from both sides of the divide and both will be just as damaging to the other. We only do this when we want to take sides. Fact of the matter is that when such damages are already committed, do they want to continue with the carnage or do they really want to seek peace? This is one question, the only fundamental question, both sides must seriously answer in all honesty and sincerity.

There is no denying that the damages and sins committed against each other will be hard to heal, and forgiveness, will be one word that is totally absent in each one’s vocabulary; but; then again, if you seek peace, and hope for a peaceful resolution to the conflict, once and for all, then someone has to claim this position, for such hope, to materialize.

With a true commitment to serve peace, there is hope for their future generation to live in peace, end all untimely deaths, prosper alongside each other, and possibly, heal all wounds. Without such a commitment, death is the only conclusion.

Can there be true peace, if the hurt continues to linger, and at the slightest provocation, that same peace both parties have worked so hard for, disintegrate overnight?

We also have to be careful with the various enemies of peace, the groups and segments of society, and foreign interferences that possess their own agendas, which is against peace for as long as the face of Jews are continued to be seen in Arabic land, Islamic land, Holy land. These are the ones responsible for the provocations and these are the enemies of peace. These are the same ones that cause all to suffer, and continue to suffer.

66) gemami – Arabs and Jews had live together before 1948. Do both world war 1 and 2 initiated from there?- Palestinian issue is about zionism- is an ideology that branch out from the main religion for the purpose of a controling this world and profiting from wars.

Terrorist attack in Mumbai, India: When there is a conflict between Pakistan and India, why are Jews a Target?

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/news/currentarticle.cfm?id=155

“Bay way of deception, thou shalt do war!”

Hi guys,

I realize that this is by no means a “fair and balanced” *cough cough Fox news* opinion that I put up, for this was meant to be counter to the recent surge in blind pro-Israeli support rooted either in religion, or plain simplicity of “they are Arabs so therefore they had it coming”.

The motivation behind this post to bring to light the fountain of blood and sin from which the nation of Israel was spawned, and many Israelis, Americans and religious types can be blindly offended to even be suggested to, that Israel is not blameless.

As I have said earlier – I am rooting for no one. But I am prepared to have the label of “Terrorist Lover” smeared on my face if it means to expose the true ignorants.

I believed what happened in the middle east actually reflect the world as a whole..generally,descendants of all races derived from MIDDLE EAST..wheather we accept it or not all of us no matter which skin color u have are cousins of both arabs and israelis…
What happened in the middle east today is of past mistakes…

In the present world,I have noticed media have full coverage of bloody massacre of palestinian civilian casualty especially woman and children..
But,what about the Israeli’s??The world is i can say being blurred by one sided coverage..

I am not a stauch israeli supporter nor a remorseful palestinian cause but the blame game came from both sides though…

The world have failed to recognise what actually happened in the arab-israeli 1967 6 day war…?Particularly the role of few arab countries with their mighty armies and the role of the colonial power at that time,the British..

The failure of a united palestinian true ‘govt’ that can negotiate with the israeli’s….do note that the Israeli’s have in fact left the gaza strip,forcefully evicted israeli jew resident for the sack in pacifying the palestinian to stop their aggressions,,,

It’s nothing much of war against religion with another religion…the middle east episode is much of political struggle,hatred and denial…
It’s much of a struggle to survive and the world has become ignorant…Do note that the Middle east is part of us…

Before anyone comments on the middle east politics, one should be clear about what is happening in Gaza and its implications on Israel as a nation state. One also must be clear that when Israel entered their land (one which they are on now), there was legal authority exercised over the process.

Hamas have been a terrorist organisation. They won the election because the people had no other choice besides their corrupted government. Hamas has since then positioned themselves to hurt Israel.

I think more research should be made available to the public before the average citizen should comment on middle east politics.

Alex Lew

I strongly recommend reading of “The Crusades Through Arab Eyes” by Amin Maalouf, a Lebanese-born Christian. (available in NLB)

We can better appreciate that the land of Israel / Palestine do not belong solely to either the Jews or the Arabs. Arabs and Jews had lived together peacefully for centuries after the fall of the Roman empire. When the “Christian” crusaders (they merely used God’s name to plunder) came, they slaughtered everyone – Muslims, Jews and Orthodox Christians alike.

Hamas have adopted terrorists tactics to create violence. Israeli government have used military force to generate terror. We should condemn both.

Although I’m a Christian, like many decent Jewish people in Israel, my prayers are with the suffering people in Gaza.

Andrew Chuah #51 – I’ve been to Iran and Pakistan and know friends who visited Syria. Most people there are just like us – who want to live, work and love. If you care to cast your eye beyond CNA and the american news channels, and look into the realities, you’ll see what has been true biased media reporting.

Andrew Chuah…

I was looking forward to you providing some proof to your earlier statement…

““These terrrorists killed more Israelis over the years then the Israelis killed the Plastenians and in war killing of the innoncent people are inevitable.”

It is very clear that 2008 and 2009 Israel has killed people more than Hamas… pls point out which year Hamas kill more people…

This is not a war… a war is where two armies do combat.. this is like playing x box… fly over a town… drop some bombs.. amazing!! Heard in some BBC news that it is a war crime attack town which are not defended… but as usual.. all laws does not apply to Israel..

I was thinking… how dumb must Israel be to think they can get peace after killing 700 people… if i kill ur son and daughter.. then i said ok.. lets have peace… with a bonus – no conditions attached… you can leave your house whenever u like.. u can buy food… plus grand bonus i will also pay u a $100k for each child… i will also send u lunch everyday between 1 to 2 pm daily.. would u accept it?

This is not taking into consideration of who occupy who.. not taking into consideration of who kick who out of their homes..

is it possible that something bigger than Hamas might come out?

maybe.. i should put it this way… if u kill one of my son.. and i killed ur entire family as retaliation… do you want peace?

70) aniza -FAQ on the 1967 war

Israeli UN envoy Abba Eban initially claimed to the United Nations Security Council that Egyptian troops had attacked first and that Israel’s air strikes were retaliatory. Within a month, however, Israel admitted that it had launched the first strike. It asserted that it had faced an impending attack by Egypt, evidenced by Egypt’s bellicose rhetoric, removal of UN peacekeeping troops from the Sinai Peninsula, closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping, and concentration of troops along Israel’s borders.

The Soviet Union introduced a resolution to the UN Security Council naming Israel the aggressor in the war. This resolution was blocked by the U.S. and Great Britain. Thereafter, the U.N. failed to rule definitively on the legality of Israel’s actions, although it called for Israel’s withdrawal from territories it seized in the fighting.

Israel’s claim of an impending Egyptian attack has been widely accepted in the West. The Israeli public had been led to believe that it faced a threat of imminent attack, and perhaps even annihilation. However, the veracity of Israel’s claim is increasingly questioned.

A number of senior Israeli military and political figures have subsequently admitted that Israel was not faced with a genuine threat of attack, and instead, deliberately chose war. Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli army chief of staff during the war, later stated: “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.” (i) General Mattityahu Peled, a member of Israel’s general staff in 1967, opined that “the thesis according to which the danger of genocide weighed on us in June 1967, and that Israel struggled for its physical existence is only a bluff born and developed after the war.” (ii) Menachem Begin, not yet prime minister but a member of the Israeli cabinet, allowed that: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” (iii)
http://imeu.net/news/article005371.shtml#1

It is not true as Percevale No. 6 perceives that Palestine belongs to the Israelis. The Palestinians have been living on their land for no less than 30 generations when the Jews were transported initially mainly from Russia and Europe to occupy their land when Israel was created in 1948. They then expelled the Palestinians and now there are about 1 million Palestinians left in Gaza and 3.7 million Palestinian refugees living mostly in neighbouring countries. It is bizarre to claim legal title based on stories as told in the bible. Claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. As Anonymous said we should not live in the past but the reality sadly is that Yahwehists of the three denominations are always living in the past. Their present lives are driven by books written by dead people then living in this arena.

Let me digress a little, I think a little bit of so called history would help here. 3,500 years ago, Moses led the Hebrew slaves out of Egypt to Canaan (present day Palestine). It took Moses and his successor Joshua assisted by their god’s direct participation 40 years to conquer Canaan and establish the Jewish kingdom of Judah. It was renamed Yisra-el after Jacob had a nocturnal wrestling match with god and despite Jacob having a broken hip bone, god could not overcome Jacob and as the sun rise, god asked Jacob to let him go but Jacob says, “I will not let you go unless you bless me”. Abraham’s god then agreed and blessed him and changed his name to yisra-el explaining “For you have fought with god and with people and have prevailed”. That was how ancient Israel came into existence, that is if you believe in the Old Testament and Yahweh the god of the Jews is actually God. Base on Genesis, fundamentalist Jews and/or Christians would one day perhaps be mad enough to want to claim title to the whole earth as it was created by their god.

It is the saddest thing that happened to humankind when the primitive warlike god of Abraham was adopted as god by Christians and Muslims as well. Since the days of Moses, the lands on which Yahweh fought for his chosen people, Jesus walked and taught and Mohammed drove his camels until today have been drenched with blood by the devotees of Yahweh. Even today, if you put a Jew, a Christian and a Muslim in the same room and even though they all worship the same god Yahweh and no matter how devoted they are they would not be able to agree on what is truth and on how Yahweh is to be worshipped.

Violence appears innate amongst Yahwehists. In Exodus 23: 33, Yahweh declared the first holy war of extermination against the Canaanites. The Israelites were told that the native Canaanites must not be permitted to live in their own country and the prophet Joshua was the chosen terminator: In Joshua 11:21-2 we are told: Then Joshua came and wiped out the Anakim from the highlands, from Hebron, from Debir, from Anoth, from all the highlands of Judah and all the inhabitants of Israel; he delivered them and their towns over to the ban. No more Anakim were left in Israelite territory except at Gaza, Gath and Ashod. Is this the first ethnic cleansing and the origin of holy war? Those left alive at Gaza, Gath and Ashod were perhaps the original ancestors of today’s Palestinians.

Yahweh if he is a god appears very human; a very cruel, hateful, destructive, vengeful and egoistic one. He is portrayed in Exodus, Isaiah and Zephaniah as a man of war, living in the midst of his people and as a warrior who gives victory. Isaiah 42:13 proclaims his human characteristics, “The Lord goes forth like a mighty man, like a man of war he stirs up his fury, he cries out, he shouts aloud and he shows himself mighty against the enemy.” The bad side of his human characteristic showing his vengefulness and hatred for his enemies is apparently reflected in Deuteronomy 32: 41-42, “…When I sharpen my flashing sword and my hand grasps it in judgement; I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me. I will make my arrows drunk with blood while my sword devours flesh: the blood of the slain and the captives, the heads of the enemy leaders…” That was Yahweh the god of the Jews, Christians and Muslims speaking 3,500 years ago. Taking the heads of their enemies is still being practiced today by his Muslims devotees in the Middle East and Indonesia as recently as a few years ago.

Ancient Israel was founded on a successful “holy war” lasting 40 years and since then throughout history and until now “holy wars/jihads” have been used by Western religious leaders, kings and politicians as means to achieve their private personal glories much to the great sufferings of humankind in general.

I agree with Teo Soh Lung (No. 22) that in the 21st century such violence by Israel or any other nation cannot be tolerated and rightly should be condemned by all decent thinking persons. They have overused the holocaust victims’ card too often – supported mainly by US, UK and other European main stream mass media casting themselves as victims instead of as the aggressors that they are. This is the same technique used by the USA. When the Muslims kill, it is terrorism, when the Israelites and the USAmericans kill Muslims by the hundreds of thousands it is to deliver civilized democracy to the Muslim people of Iraq, Afghanistan and Palestine. We should not forget that the BBC, CNN and other western main stream mass media has a natural propensity to be bias towards their own kind. I see no distinction between them – terrorists are terrorists whether legal or illegal. The Israelites supported unconditionally by USAmericans and the USAmericans themselves are also terrorists – perhaps more so as they are more deadly and cunningly hypocritical – they are better able to hide themselves behind a veil of decency to the gullible emotional citizens disabled from critical impartial analysis.

Israel supported by the US and UK have been able to ignore the UN Resolution 242 and 338 calling on Israel to withdraw from all occupied territories with immunity and arrogance simply because on earth today, might is right as represented by the US and UK foreign policies. There are all together no less than 100 UN resolutions ignored by Israel. The UN is rendered useless in the political and military arenas by the US disregard for international laws and the Geneva Convention.

Gemami (No. 49) is right. Israel was created by the USA, UK and French because of their strategic needs for oil and the Suez Canal. If the US so wish, the Middle East/Palestinian/Israeli conflict can be resolved tomorrow. The US is funding Israel to a tune of 3 billion dollars a year.

Humankind has been lucky so far but we cannot continue to depend on luck. The Jews, Christians and Muslims and other nations now have WMD – nuclear holocaust is a reality. We need a global mind shift. In the 21st century, we cannot afford to live with outdated political and religious forms that have been tested and proven not workable.

I leave you all with a quotation by Thomas Paine:

‘All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit’.

Thomas Paine together with Thomas Jefferson and George Washington were largely responsible for the bills of rights, drafting of the US Constitution, the declaration of independence and the Universal declaration of human rights. His two books, the Rights of Men and The Age of Reason would be essential reading if you politically inclined.

Hi moshedyan… had a hard time understanding your poem…u must be very highly educated…

I do not mean to say Hamas is faultless… i know they are classified as terrorist…

but i am talking about is Israel… if it kill so many people… does it expect them to want to have peace with Israel? not a good PR i think to the people they want peace with… u dont go killing hundreds of people asking for peace.. make sense to you? i donno poetry…

got to give them some credit though.. they did one hell of a good PR campaign for the war and potraying themselves as victims all the time… people all over the world actually support them killing civilians… they deserve it for voting Hamas they say…

by the way.. none of the above… songkok dont suit me.. a little more modern i think… my hands too thin for boxing..

[i]Muhammad on January 9th, 2009 3.20 am Hi moshedyan… had a hard time understanding your poem…u must be very highly educated…

I do not mean to say Hamas is faultless… i know they are classified as terrorist…
[/i]
highly educated?
hee hee
neigh………….
i educate through moi’s travel
aroun 1/2 the globe
when i said travel
i meant long term
you know
some take years
some take months
lived all over the places
from bustop through temples
mingled
mangled
worked for all this peoples above
only then i know
not to
TAKE sides
both are EQUALY dangerous
both would kill you
for just disagreeing…..

While we are all arguing about who is right or wrong,perhaps we should consider another aspect:

The IDF must be using a lot of fuel for its war machines. Where do they get the fuel? From which oil exporting countries?

Wouldn’t these countries benefit from the war too, just like the US?

While we are all arguing about who is right or wrong,…..

This is the heart of the problem. Each proclaiming to be right, and with bands of supporters to go along with their proclaimation.

Let’s be clear once and for all: There is no right or wrong in this conflict, there is only wrong.

All others meddling in the conflict are making it more wrong by adding fuel to the fire.

Remember this; as soon as you take one of either sides, you have taken a position that is wrong.

The only way to right this wrong is for all to come to their senses and decide for peace. Only with peace, can the wrong be righted.

For as long as they continue to decide against peace, which is the easiest decision to make because of the hurt suffered; there can only be the continuation of bloodshed and death … for generations to come.

I’m just wondering how many people in this discussion are taking sides because of their own religion?

My personal opinion is that this conflict will never end because it involves religion and is therefore irrational and emotional.

So I’d rather pay more attention to issues personally affecting me.

Cheers.

Hi #82) hansolo,

Finally, someone dares to ask the question that others dare not ask.

It is not just the sides one take because of one’s religion. It is also the side that one takes because of a lack of understanding due to the numerous slanted reports that took sides with one or the other.

In this regard, I would suspect (my own personal opinion) that one would read and agree with those reports that played on one’s own religious faith and belief, and make their stand based on those accounts.

This is why I keep saying, we, as observers, must stay away from all these detailed reports on attrocities committed etc because these do not help to resolve the situation. It only makes it worse.

Our focus should only be on the call for a ceasefire that would bring both parties to the table to give serious consideration to a lasting peace accord; and to work twice as hard to make this resolve for peace a permanent reality.

To no. 9 “tiredman”, what you wrote is sheer fallacy and ignorance! Israel was never created by the West. If there is a gangster in this war, it is NOT Israel. Please read and understand the history and the current affairs first.

Wow…

I can’t believe this post received a lot of comments, from fellow singaporeans none the less. I had always thought that my countrymen and women are too preoccupied with their own cares and concerns to bother about the rest of the world. So this is a good sign that singaporeans at least some are lifting that bubble away.

The debates are quite passionate as seen from both camps here, Pro Palestine or Pro Israel. Hate to be a pessimist but I don’t think that’d ever be peace. I believe Israel has a right to exist. Seriously let the Jewish people have their own land and leave them in peace. They suffered too much as it is. There are so many muslim states and arab lands in the middle east and only one Jewish state in this world. And why can’t those oil rich nations in the Arab League help their poor Palestinian cousins instead of funding extremist fundamentalist sects.

All these sabre rattling on Israel by Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas has got to stop. They are making the situation worse. If Hamas hadn’t provoked Israel wouldn’t have attacked although maybe Israel overreacted a little as seen by the bodycount. I’m not condoning Israel’s invasion. Military action should always be a last resort. So there. I said it. And before anyone attacks me as being biased. I’ll say that I was born Muslim although I’m more secular humanist. Religion poisons the world. Yeah yeah…call me a heretic.

Peace Fellow Singaporeans
Good to know you guys care.

I’m trying very hard to keep an objective view to everything, but its hard when religion and history comes into the conversations.

to Muhammad comment #17,
yes, according to the Guardian piece, the IDF broke the truce by killing 6 Hamas gunmen. But what the heck was Hamas doing by building tunnels??

To myvote and jun comments #12, 13:
yes, its Hamas who wants to get rid of Israelis. doesnt mean they deserve the violence on civilians. AND, do you know why Hamas was founded? It was formed by people who have been pushed to the wall, oppressed and occupied, a people who felt that Fatah/PLO was not able to achieve its goals.

As i read into this, hearing that IDF has been planning this “Operation” months in advance, and also reading that Fatah and Hamas planned to form to unite and form a coalition, i think the developments were all more political more than anything else.

Israel needs to do a pre-emptive move, that will keep the focus on the events, and keep Hamas occupied on retaliation, rather than a unification with Fatah, keep palestinians separated. (Fatah is secular with Baath ideology, while Hamas is Sunni).

Israel is also going into elections soon. hardliners are competing against moderates, and Olmert’s party has been seen as weakening towards recognizing the return of lands back to the palestinians…

the web is becoming even more entangled….

[i]The IDF must be using a lot of fuel for its war machines. Where do they get the fuel? From which oil exporting countries?

Wouldn’t these countries benefit from the war too, just like the US?[/i]
not only US
the europeans all this while is alway supportives of the Jews..
that i don’t have to go into details
the israelis all this while are SELF reliances
makin their OWNED defence ARMS…
(you rthink where did singapore tech inc arms dept got the idea from?
..who was our defence ADVISORs)
to this powerful countries
israel must be THERE
to keep the arabs toes in line
so to speak………………………..

if any piece of geography should have a stamp of religion and ethnic group over it, then rightfully america belongs to native americans, all whites should go back to europe and singapore belongs to the orang lauts.

the problem with arguments over whether that piece of land is or not, rightfully whos, isn’t going to solve the fact bombs will fly over the palestinian strip. And, if you take the problem of religion, sufficiently if we eliminate religion tmr, does that mean the skies would not be colored red then?

lest you forget, politics is about power. Until the balance is tilted, there just might be more children’s crusades.

Hi, 85) ashzley , why not have the Israel state in UK or Germany for that matter.

This is complicated. My mind turns over itself 3 to 4 times a day. When I see pics of babies in hospitals. I think the Israelites went too far. When I hear another rocket is fired by hamas, my mind does a flip.

Why not have Israel in Antartica?No one will complain ,definately. Why must british/america created Israel in Palestine?

Since America is so passionate for the Ashkenazi Jews, let them settle in Alaska. I think there is a lot of space for 7 million jews. No Hamas rocket can reach them. Hopefully Eskimo can accept them.

and zionist organisations were carrying out bombings in palestine and in england before and after WWII, to get the world to hear their agenda of “creating the state of Israel”.

Its so sad – a land of such religious significance to billions of people, and yet, a land faced with violence for as long as humankind can remember.

How does British justify Ashkenazi Jews from europe to have a home in Palestine? Its like telling Christians from Africa can settle in Britain.

Jumbo,
you keep using Askennazi Jews as an excuse to tarok Israel.
it is a fact Israel’s land is occupied by Palestinians. It was Israel’s since Abraham’s time. They were dispersed and exiled many times but that doesn’t mean outsiders got the right to take over. For the Jews it is coming home to re-estabish their homeland . Unfortunately the outsiders didn’t come to tenant but shitted there and sand marked the place with shrines making it sentimental and holy unnecessarily next to the host’s holy and lay claim as theirs. This is unfortunately the shits that are causing all the problems and so much headache. Fortunately, the clash of cvilisation is near
to end all squables.

Anyone with some basic command of history and common sense can see that this article is full of wicked assumptions, skewed generalizations, regurgitation of history without critical thought and attempts to draw parallels that do not exist.

I regret to say this article is bullshit. This is the article of the poorest quality and should never have appeared on a renowned website like TOC.

The Jews were offered another place in Africa but that would have given rise to worse accusation of land grabbing. But he Jews were not stupid. It was not land . It was a homeland they wanted and naturally Israel was the choice. If the red indains in Us want their land back they can take it by force.
They can enlist people like Jumbo, Mohamad, aygee to champion their cause. After all US was grabbed from the Indians.
These people accused the Christians of the worst crime. They equate the West ,Europe and US as Christians. Yes they were but hey are atheists. The crusaders were Christians and atheists and without them the world would have a different place now. Spain was occupied or was Spain accepted the faith by invitation?
Come on, history is seen through my eyes and your eyes depending on how you like to see, whether through rayband or apple brand.

80% of world jewry are Ashkenazi jews, which mean there are not originate from the holy land Palestine. It make no sense for the British and American to resettle them in Palestine. British and American should return them to Khazaria or Ukraine.

If another holocaust happen and this time, the christian in africa are victimised. If they were to use the same logic, They too want to resettle in Palestine for Jesus was born in bethlehem.

So people, this is a screwed up arrangement and Palestine people are to endure the burden for nothing.

Do jews need a homeland?
Why then majority of jews live outside israel?
Why then many jews has dual citizenship?

Maybe those screwed historian can share their historical illusion.

Joseph Cannon:

The current destruction of Gaza reminds me of the Ardeatine massacre of World War II. On March 23, 1944, Italian partisans in Rome launched an attack on a facist convoy, killing 28. Hitler ordered the reprisal killing of 50 Italian partisans for every dead fascist. The German security commander in Rome, Herbert Kappler, “downsized” this directive to a 10-to-1 ratio. As a result, 280 Italians (mostly civilians) were murdered in the Ardeatine caves, an atrocity which has lived in the annals of infamy.

Ten-to-one reprisal killings. During World War II. And people are still angry about it.

And now, in retaliation for 15 rocket attacks over the course of eight years, Israel has decided to massacre an entire civilian population. The proportions are much worse than 10-to-1, worse than Hitler’s suggestion of 50-to-1.

And yet here in America, there are still people — if we can use the term “people” to describe such pitiless brutes — who would consider this “retaliation” against the Palestinians justified. Most of these brutes are not Jews but so-called Christian Zionists.

http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/01/this-is-what-is-happening.html

Jumbo,
your god would have stopped but he allowed it to happen. That means all that you have mentioned to shame the Christians were approved, halal or is your god powerless. The world order today is approved and sanctioned by god and no one can change it. Try going against him and you will perish. This is a fact and don’t try to change by wishing it or fantasising it or it should have been or whatever.I
t is a fact. It is a fact that Israel belongs to Isrealites

I do not see Muhammad taking side because he is Muslim. At first (many years ago), I too thought that the Palestinians were terrorists because I only read ST which carry reports from western media. But which some research, I came to realized otherwise.

Muhammad had provided many links so that we can listen and judge for ourselves but I believe many had stuck to their guns (without even viewing these links) and argue from a already pre-conceived perspective.

BTW, I’m Catholic.

Soon Brittan will become Brittanistan and US the Americanistan. There is every possibility. They are not christian countries anymore. There are very few christians and so are most European countries .
If you care to visit Richard Hawkin’s website or blog you can hear or read his views
about religion.
In US there is running battle between creationist and evolutionist. Schools and colleges are teaching Darwinism. Christians are not allowed to wear any symbols of their religion but the scarf and tudang , turban are allowed. No wishing of merry christmas. it is banned or frowned upon.
So where do you think these countries are going.

I see some historian now resort to red herring! LOL

Oxford professor of international relations Avi Shlaim served in the Israeli army and has never questioned the state’s legitimacy. But its merciless assault on Gaza has led him to devastating conclusions.

This brief review of Israel’s record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with “an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders”. A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism – the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel’s real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

Are the Jews really Israelites?

God first made his covenant with Abram in Genesis chapters 12-18. In Genesis 17:4-7, God promised Abraham:

“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations. No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you. I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” (Bold added for emphasis)

According to the above, plus many, many more verses, God’s promise is immutable. But are the modern day Jews really the descendants of Abraham? If not then they are not eligible for God’s Covenant promises.

http://www.discerningtoday.org/members/Digest/2001digest/mar/are_the_jews_really_israelites.htm

Base on the above proof, there is no biblical justification for state of ISRAEL. The only reason ISRAEL exist is due to Zionism.

Ahxing Post#96;

You said it right.

This thread should be discontinued. The Subject Matter is infinitely controversial.

Except for one or two neutrals, the rest of the commenters were(are) religiously emotional and will not be able to help much in bringing peace to the Palestinian/Israelis conflicts.

Ultimately, sensibility must prevail if anyone wish to help in peace-making.

And

to anyone who takes side, he/she will only further aggravates and extends the conflict.

Let us here have peace by not taking the the conflicts of others here.

patriot

I can see many educated people over here with the arguments they posted to jusify the side they are in. However, they seems to forget that many people are dying under the bombs attack of israel.

Personally I’m very pessimistic that this conflict will ended. Even the UN successfully enforced a ceasefire on israel and hamas, similar outbreaks will happen over and over again in future.

The hatred had entrenched in the heart and soul of israelis and palestinians.

It’s a vicious cycle as someone had pointed out. Hamas rocketed israel and israel then retaliated with missiles and ground force. More People get killed and more suicide bombers out for revenge. AT the same time, muslims around the world noted and more wannabe extremists volunteered for terrorist work.

One day, the prophecy might come true. Perhaps then the world will have peace.

When it comes to religion and politics, nothing will come out right. People will chose to believe whatever they want as they take side. No more rational and intelligent. Victor always get to write the history , remember!

What matters now is that, one side is equiped with far too powerful weapons and the other side is trapped and slaughtered.

Let’s help to bring peace to the both countries and pray for them.

I would like to thank Davin Ng for opening this thread. It has been quite a learning experience for me.Google it…there’s lot of information out there.

I have posted before that the Jews or the Israelites are every where. They have ubiquitous presence. There are 2.5 billions or more , dispersed all over the world not just the 7 millions in Israel. You can exterminate the 7 million, another ‘hollowcause’ but not the rest.They have existed for few hundred thousand years with their culture intact just as God promised Abraham they will be KINGS of nations. To translate the word ‘kings’ it can mean presidents and prime ministers too. They are living among you. in China and India, in europe and asia and in great numbers like sands of the desert and the ocean and Yaweh is their God and only God. He has not changed his name nor adopted another name. He is the Yaweh of Abraham and the Yaweh
of his descendants. He was , He is and He will be Yaweh.
He is not like many today changing name to masquerade and to deceive,.

Ever wonder…………….if we can’t find PEACE here, in this website, what are the chances of finding one in Middle East?

Perhaps it is time to air my honest opinions. I support the Israeli government in pursuing their strategy. So what if there is collateral damage? It is the price Palestinians pay for supporting a terrorist organisation and electing it into parliament. It is also the price the Palestinians pay for their right to self-determination.

Whatever Israel is doing is to protect their citizens within what is possible offered by the IDF. It is just too bad that Palestine does not have proper military forces to defend itself. All it has is rag-and-tag militia which pledge allegiance to various political organisations. Now that Hamas is firing rockets from Gaza into Northern Israel, do you think the rockets arrived into Hamas’ hands overnight? No. The rockets were a planned attack whose logistics were possible during the earlier 6-month ceasefire between Hamas and Israel.

Until Palestinians stopped supporting Hamas and fully support the peace process, Palestinians’ deaths cannot be used to justify why Israel should stop until we have the terrorist organisation Hamas completely eradicated. Israel is doing the right thing to protect its citizens. Shame on Hamas who use civilians as human shields. If Hamas is truly a nationalist organisation, it would not use Palestinian civilians as human shields. Hamas is the true enemy of Palestine, not Israel. Israel is liberating Palestine of terrorism. Israel is doing a favour for Palestinians.

Smallvice585,
Im not so sure where you are from but obviously you are already blinded by bias news reports that obviously made you think this way.

“Israel is doing a favour for Palestinians”… well murdering more than 700 in less than a month, is in your view, a favour?

“Hamas is the true enemy of Palestine”…… Hamas is there to protect Palestine from being more destructed by the Israelis forces.

“Now that Hamas is firing rockets from Gaza into Northern Israel, do you think the rockets arrived into Hamas’ hands overnight? No. The rockets were a planned attack whose logistics were possible during the earlier 6-month ceasefire between Hamas and Israel.” …………… Dude, comparing the might and logistics of weapons Israel has against Hamas would be totally unfair. No matter how many missiles Hamas has, Israel has more. Funded and sponsored by USA, and with the existing of Nuclear weapons in Israel, is this a fair fight? Israels comes in Tanks and well equipped soldiers, does Hamas has A single Tank?

If Hamas were to lose out in this conflict then i shall be in tears for Palestine as the Israelis know, there are no longer resistance in Palestine to achieve their ultimate goal and that is to wipe out Palestine of Muslims and make it to an Israeli state.

Thats what happens in Native America, white men came, make friends with the native americans, know their secrets, weapons and weakness, destroy their strongest tribe and eventually wipe out the natives from the land when no longer a resistance.

A Thinking Singaporean (#114),

“Israel is doing a favour for Palestinians”… well murdering more than 700 in less than a month, is in your view, a favour?

Terrorist supporters and sympathisers are no more than accomplices to terrorist organisations simply by not rejecting terrorist organisations such as Hamas. There is always a price to pay for being a terrorist supporter/sympathiser, regardless if you are young, old, healthy, weak, rich or poor.

Hamas is there to protect Palestine from being more destructed by the Israelis forces

Hamas is using Palestinian human shields for its causes and you call this protecting Palestine from Israeli forces?

Dude, comparing the might and logistics of weapons Israel has against Hamas would be totally unfair. No matter how many missiles Hamas has, Israel has more. Funded and sponsored by USA, and with the existing of Nuclear weapons in Israel, is this a fair fight? Israels comes in Tanks and well equipped soldiers, does Hamas has A single Tank?

Unlike Hamas, Israel has legitimate rights to weapons and fundings because it is a country. A terrorist organisation simply does not have the legitimate rights to any weaponry regardless of its causes.

The Palestinians never missed the opportunity to reject peaceful openings. Back in the heydays, when the entire Israel-Palestine region was divided into 10% Israel and 90% Palestine, Palestine rejected the mandate Subsequently, the UN offered a new 50:50 division and Palestine rejected the division again. Today, it stand at 90% Israel and 10% Palestine and the Palestinians continue to reject.

Clearly, it is Palestinians who can’t seat through peaceful resolutions which would have avoided the bloodshed today. Hamas is the new cancer in the Israel-Palestine conflict and even surgical strikes to take out this cancer will result in collateral damage. Until Palestinians stop supporting Hamas and accept the land divide, there can be no peaceful progress.

A Thinking Singaporean(#114).
you are right to say that SHOULD be the goal of Israel to wipe out the Palestinains and once and for all to remove the pain in the neck so that there will be peace, no more resistance,. That was happend many centuries ago the Jews and the Christians could live in Muslim ruled countries peacefully because there was NO DESIRE or AMBITION of a statehood from these people. The Jews and Christians have no such idealogy of 3 state ideals.(the umrah)
Based on every Muslim’s duty premise to achieve the ideal state there will be no peace in Israel.
You are the one who is blinded by the fad belief and you are definitely not thinking hard enough .Peace is the ideal but on whose terms?

My point is whatever it is what happened in the middle-east is far beyond our reach…both of them will never listen to whoever is saying…even so the UN..

The ‘massacre’ by the israeli’s of over 700 palestinians civilians cannot be justified as a kinda self defence to protect Israeli citizens…

while the palestinians militants keep on rocketing israel in a very densely populated urban full of civilians is one of the factors that hamas should be responsible…and keep on denying…

I do not agree that religion whatsover should be brought in the episode…in the first place after careful reading I realised that the militans are using religion as a cover up for their act…no religion preach on violence…

Do take note that even us’our family tree’ is link to Middle East…what happened there if u noticed affected the whole world in general…

But as the casualty mounting each day,i noticed that the world can only sit and watch the slaughtering drama and events of self defence each day brought about idealogy of hatred.

Ashkenazi Jews are non-Israelites.

Research Proves “Jews” are non-Israelite Asiatics!

In 1976 Random House published a book that should have hit Modern Christian Churches like a block buster, but instead they chose to totally ignore it. It dealt with the racial origin of the people in Communist and Christian countries throughout the globe, who call themselves “Jews,” and whom many Churches (and Jews themselves) generally insist are “God’s Chosen People,” the descendants of Abraham.

Since the late 1800’s several Bible Scholars, who were also students of History and Racial origins, have insisted the Church denominations were wrong; that instead of being descendants of Abraham, Israelites, these Jews from Eastern Europe and Western Asia were descended from Mongolians and other Asiatic peoples who had adopted Judaism as their “religion” about 1,000 years ago and have become known as “Jews.”

These Bible scholars were for the most, ignored or condemned, and often called “cultists” or “anti-Semites.”

Now, after many years of research, a well-known ‘Jewish author’, Arthur Koestler has published a 255 page book titled THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE in which he proves the same point of the earlier scholars; i.e. that these Eastern European “Jews” are neither Israelites nor “Semites,” but are instead Khazars, Mongols, and people of Hun descent!

http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/TruthPage/JewsarenotIsraelites.htm

This thread is now closed for further comments.

This is because some comments are inappropriate and are disparaging.