I agree with you Mr Tan.

If the senior citizens are given a fair wage (like MM Lee) they should be allowed to continue to work.

If they have to work hard, physically – eg collect cardboard, sell tissue- etc, then I think our social structure should be in place to help them – instead of invested in Madoff, UBS, BOAmerica, Merrill -

Hi Agree (#1)

Thank you for your views. I encourage you to use your real name in future. It will help to make your views more credible.

You can refrain from making personal remarks against MM Lee or any other person. There is no need. to do so.

Just put your point across clearly. Give the reasons to support your points.

The policy to get employers to rehire workers beyond age 62 will backfire.

It might work in good times when jobs are aplenty but not during a recession.

As our economy worsens, in the next round of retrenchments, it is foreseeable that those older folks who are nearer to age 62 are likely to be cut first. After all, which company will want to keep this group of workers and be be forced to rehire them beyond 62?

Those workers in the age of 55 – 62 will then have a tough time getting new jobs. With rising unemployment and a surfeit of foreign labor to compete against, why would any sane employer want to hire them and soon be forced to offer employment till age 65?

So, in reality, few workers who would really benefit from this policy.

It is ironic that while the obvious expressed intention is to help those nearing 62 to secure a steady income stream, the real world effect is to cause them more hardship.

What can we say about the thoroughness of our Division One leaders when it comes to thinking through this policy?

越描越黑

The population of the the old citizens are getting larger each year and most of them are now either jobless or still continue to work with unjustifiable wages. The governing policy here if left unchange will only leave these folks to suffer further.

Perhaps some of the more able elderly should form an association or something to help look out for the rest. All I am hearing is the urging for them to work for as long as they can but there doesn’t seem to be any form of independent body to protect them.

I would like to voice my littel 2 cents.

I feel that seniors should not just be kept at work.
They should be paid as highly as is humanly possible for that position.
why?
oh, if you don’t pay them that, they may commit fraud.
recently, got 1 giant indian listed company , also has many contracts in singapore, kenna boo boo when its founder felt he deserved more money although paid very very extremely high already by their national standard.

this led me to think WHAT IF he were paid $XXXXXX million more a day before he committed his 1st fraud? where $XXXXXX million is the amount he eventually frauded.

lady and genterman
tell me your views after reading my views.

must pay high high else people fraud fraud?

what about security personnel ? if they not paid a million per month, will they …. ?

I feel that scientists should be paid 1 trillion a month.
because if they buay song, they invent wierd thingies and sabo human race how?
so, you can see clearly why scientists should be paid 1 trillion per month for the potential damage they can inflict if they buay song. Considering the potential extent of damage and cost of damage, i think its clearly no brainer we should pay and pay scientists, all scientist, especially research scientists 1 trillion per month, at the most minimal. for the sake of all. they value of scientists is too high.

ya, i agree with above comment that security personnel also should be paid super high. Else, who can guarantee ?

by the same token, its my personal opinion that all banking staff should also be paid super high grade salary. For obvious reasonings.

regardings,
YiRen

Yes, I fully agree that workers at all level, not only elderly must be paid well.
What applies to our ministers should equally applies to all level of the workforce.
That the hotel cleaning lady cited by ou PM-she should be well paid so that:
-she can work with pride
-will not pilfer hotel stuff
-will not bug customers for tips
-main a smile through the day
………….

5) Andrew Loh on January 9th, 2009 11.05 am
Perhaps some of the more able elderly should form an association or something to help look out for the rest. All I am hearing is the urging for them to work for as long as they can but there doesn’t seem to be any form of independent body to protect them.

What else can they do besides urging and urging these old folks to work and work. Why? so they don’t have to hand out more $$$ to them and instead rewarding themselves is even more of a priority than helping the people.

Hi Mr Tan,

My apologies but I need to speak up on this.

I was hoping you would touch on the health issue of the older worker because I feel it is one of the primary reason why the older worker is not attractive to companies. All I read was half a sentence; “….more likely to fall sick. “.

In sickness of health, he becomes a liability. If he is employed with full or partial medical benefits, this will eat into the business cost, someone else will have to cover the tasks assigned to him too.

Saving for retirement. I agree that the system must be geared toward ensuring the worker achieves financial independence at retirement and all work thereafter ought to be for pleasure or to pass time, as much as can be.

Perhaps the government can look into giving the older citizen who is still actively working, some sort of monetory incentives, like a special bonus for continued employment over a period of time?

This will encourage the older folks to join the workforce and be self reliant and healthy. With that little bit of incentive, we could possibly see a healthier grey population that do not overstretch our hospitals and medical institutions? Medical cost on the grey population would also come down.

Older folks are seemingly more fragile and this is one reason why their children do not want them to return to work. Whether this is a misconception or fact is open to debate but I would suspect there is more truth to it than meets the eye. How many of us would want our parents to be working when we are not doing too bad ourselves? I won’t be able to go on my yearly vacation in peace if I know my parents are staying behind because of work.

Having said that, I personally believe what we should be striving for is for our senior folks to leave the workforce upon retirement so that they can go on that dream vacation, or take up the hobby they have always wanted to take up but never had the time to do so etc. Yes, financial independence is a must and the govt must look into this to see how it can help the worker grow into this position during his young working life.

This is what quality of life is all about. We spend the better half of our lives on work so that we can enjoy the other half of it in retirement.

Singapore has to change and a drastic change is indeed needed.

Dear gemami,

Thank you for your views (#10). I agree. Older workers incur a healthy health care cost to employers.

One option is for the older worker to bear this cost themselves, so that it does not become a burden to the employer. In fact, if they are unemployed, they have to pay their own medical expenses.

If the employer has a group medical insurance, they do not mind engaging older workers as the premium is pooled with the younger workers. So, they can provide medical benefits to the older workers as well.

I wonder what kind of life that our leaders are expecting Singaporeans are expected to live in our tiny dot of an Island.

1) Children are expected to start their learning process from the moment they are born, so that they would get a head start given our highly competitive education environment and the crazy pursuits of as-many-degrees-as-possible (you get my point)

2) Once you are able to work, (with or w/o qualifications) you are expected to slog day and night to eek out a living in Singapore, so that you can pay
(a) the crazy installments for your over-priced affordable HDB housing,
(b) your over-priced vehicles and its ERPs and other taxes (for those who drives),
(c) your conservancy fees to TCs (who use the $$ to get richer and yet, it lack transparency and you dun see how the profits benefit the residents directly but when they lose the $$, they just shrug their shoulders),
(d) for GST on almost everything you buy (but we still pay hefty income tax)
(e) (you get my point)

3) You are expected to work your butt off till you get
(a) arthiritis from all the standing on the public transport (even though you pay mush higher fares, they can’t guarantee you seats on those long rides)
(b) blindness from staring at the computer monitors all day since now everything is so electronic and computerised (and they even charge you more for non-electronic transactions)
(c) cancer because they put so much chlorine in your tap water and you definitely have to drink in hot & humid SG,
(d) really old (b’cos our leaders feel that by keeping our elders employed, the state wouldn’t need to fork out that much money to sustain our elders until they die.)
(e) you get my point

4) My question is: when are Singaporeans expected to enjoy the fruits of their labour? meaning kick back, takes their shoes off, enjoy the morning sun w/o having to put on their work clothes, take a bus w/o having to reach the workplace by a certain time, have a meal w/o having to make sure its still lunch period, read the papers w/o having to see if their company is doing well and if they will get retrenched suddenly, (you get my point)

WHEN?? Where is the quality of life? Is that how Sgans are expected to live out our lives – contribute to the economy non-stop from cradle to grave…
When??

Look at the way how News 8 presents the news on this issue. It seems like the right way is to restructure the wages of the elderly by reducing their salary. It is so obvious. That old lady who is working in the hotel is ready to take a lower salary. Isn’t it obvious?
Bearing in mind that company work to its best interest, with the policy of taking in cheap labour to supplement the economic growth; in what way can the government convince me that they are not at the side of the employer?

Dear Mr Tan,

Thanks for your reply and I do agree that group medical insurance might address the issue. However, I do not think it is fair for any company to have different employment benefits given to its employees.

This amounts to discrimination, and the senior worker must not be seen to be discriminated against by being told to pay for their own medical expenses while the younger colleagues are taken care of by the company.

As it is now, there are already forms of discrimination, for example, a 10% pay cut when your reach 62, and we must not continue to add to it.

Anyway, I think we should not even be arguing over this issue but over the larger issue of whether these older folks should be given the chance to retire to a life of peace and happiness. Their life’s work must stop somewhere for them to enjoy what they had laboured for.

# 5) Andrew Loh
I agreed with your suggestion of having able elderly forming an association to help look out for the senior community. This can also include a group insurance scheme as part of the program. I think it will make a difference when there is a independent body to protect our senior citizens /workers from being exploit by the market. Currently the trade unions movement are just as pro business minded as the Government. It will take a long while before any postive major changes to the government polices on this issues can be achieve.

Hi gemami (#14)

I agree with your view that it is more urgent now, to get job opportunities at fair wages for our senior. We can worry about medical benefits, and fairness in access to benefits, at a later date.

Old folks should just work till they die so that the nations’ reserves can grow bigger and bigger.

It is NOT raining now because we (the elites) say so.

Hence, the question of accessing a little of the reserves to help the people during this difficult period is out of the question.

[i]Andrew Loh on January 9th, 2009 11.05 am Perhaps some of the more able elderly should form an association or something to help look out for the rest. All I am hearing is the urging for them to work for as long as they can but there doesn’t seem to be any form of independent body to protect them.
[/i]
have have
you all dunno mey?
in some ole grand hdb area
liked chongpang and angmokio
you will see a voideck being refurbished with marble floor hugh fridge
to cater kopi/teh drinkin sesssion
for those ole folks to live their dyin days out
they gathered
they played chap all cards
for a few cents or whatever
this is workin as well
when you win
(some ole ladies resort to cheatin
typical chinese blood by hidin more cards under their chairs)
you already earned your next meal
the guys ley
played chinese chess
the skill master 1
are the most intriging
they can make 1 week lunch money by winnin in just 1 day…

If the leaders are sincere, the only way to ensure a minimum living wage of all workers, including older workers, is to have a minimum wage policy. By not legislating such a system which is quite common in many developed countries, the govt is in fact making it easy for employers to exploit workers. The exploitation is quite complete with the govt’s virtually complete control over the trade unions.

some of the earlier comments are worth noting though may sound sarcastic :).

one has got to be realistic. in the present business climate, it is simply not feasible or even practical to keep the old working till they almost drop.

already, it is tough for the younger generation to find jobs. many countries are struggling with jobs creation for the young. can sg create enough DECENT JOBS with DECENT PAY for both old and young in ten to twenty years time and beyond?

unlikely.

the young are more flexible as they can do any job that the old can do. however, the reverse is not true. so when there is a famine of jobs, you know who will go first. furthermore, cushy jobs for the elderly( managing jewelry shop which was highlighted in the papers) are really a drop in the ocean. the vast majority of elderlies will have to contend with “cleaners” kind of work with miserly pay.

i can go on and on(many others will be able to fill you up on the absurdity and impracticalness of keeping the old horse slaving to the end of days) but the reality is, it is irresponsible to project a vision of false hope and mislead the public that continuous employment for the elderly will resolve their financial problems.

without resolving the root problems of this country, our weaker citizens will continued to be oppressed.

Its a good idea to get the old back into the job market. But I think more may be required. Its not enuf to look at just the issue of minimum pay.

With due respect Mr Tan, I cannot agree with this statement. “Thank you for your views. I encourage you to use your real name in future. It will help to make your views more credible.”

I dont need to declare my details to come across as credible. And you should be more sensitive and careful next time when what you say concerning this issue.

Otherwise no will vote for you. Remember you need us more than we need you.

I agree with George.

This is exploitation of the senior citizens by the hotel employers, with implicit agreement by the government of the day.

Govt is saying it is better to work hard for small pay than for the employer to collapse and more people are out of job.

Where is the protection for the citizens against such exploitation if the PM himself endorses it?

there are limited jobs for old people with too many old people retiring in the next few years lah

so old already, you want old people fight each other for jobs to keep themselves “busy” or paying for their medical expenses meh?

wait people say…. sgaporeans got no life except be slave to work lah.

work never mind but is it purposeful work keeping the rich richer and the old workers struggling with money problems till their dying days?

c’mon. where is your conscience?

I wonder what is the root cause for all this mismanagement. It seems if this aged issue is not well managed, it may also be spin out of control and end up being a bad idea.

I read somewhere today, Temasek’s Merrill losses could exceed $2bn. In another place I also read that its bc we a globalized economy that is why we are in the frontline.

Then here this guy said, it had to do with the power of one.

http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/why-the-elites-take-a-wrong-turn-%e2%80%93-the-evil-power-of-one/

I just want to ask Tan Kian Lin what is the best way to make sure we can get it right from the very beginning.

We have all been very disappointed of late by new ideas that suddenly dont seem so good after a few months of launching them

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b1845f60-dcf3-11dd-a2a9-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

I also came across this as well as I mentioned above.

The problem is none of them wants to return to the drawing board to see what went wrong and how to make a fresh start, even if it clearly warrants one.

The problem is compounded further with these smart asses attempting to correct what have already gone wrong. This is doing more damage than the initial mistakes.

Thank you very much Mr. TKL for your views.
All these talks by the government about re-employment for older workers above the age of 62 are just NATO (no action talk only). I recently retired at age 62 from a GLC. Although I am prepared to continue working doing the same job and with a 50% pay cut, I was not offered re-employment. The point I would like to make is, no point making all these statements on re-employing older workers after their retirement. The mindset of employers must change first. Otherwise, it is only just empty talk.

Sad to see this article.

I just went to YuNam early last year and found out that there are so many old people around 50 to 80 year old at the park that we visited in our tour, they all are enjoying their time play chess, dancing, practice Tai Ji, Singing, Playing batminton and so on. So I ask the local tour guide, how old are there retirement age in Yu Nam, to my surprise, working women retire at 50 year old and Men retire at 55 year old. And they are now enjoying China Government welfare fund for their retirement, and how much they get? China Government are paying them the last income that they draw before their retirement, this is because they have serve their country during their working period and now the government showing the THANKS to them by giving them back their common people credit of their service when they are old.

So comparing back to Singapore, what have our Government done for our old people, that once upon the time give the life to built up Singapore economy, but what PAP show their appreciation, WORK UNTIL YOU DIE AND CONTINUE TO GIVE US MONEY TO PAY OUR HIGH SALARIES.

How can the gahmen, on one hand, be asking getting the senior citizens to work longer when their other hand is squeezing SMEs by raises business costs like rental.

In order to survive, wouldnt SMEs have to resort to cutting more old folks?

So even if aged workers are convinced to work longer, SMEs might not be keen to employ them.

Article “SME feels pinch of rising rents” from Straits Times’ Money page 9/1/09:

[Quote]
The director of a graphic design firm, located at Block 970 Toa Payoh North, said his three-year contract will need to be renewed soon.

“My business volume has gone down by some 20 percent but yet I have heard from my neighbours that Mapletree has increased rents by some 30 percent – that is no a good sign for us,: he said
[Unquote]

Note the irony that their landlord, Mapletree Investments, is 100% owned by Temasek Holdings, which is the state’s investment arm.

http://www.temasekholdings.com.sg/our_portfolio_portfolio_highlights_major_investments.htm

Wonderful. Our enlightened folks running this country chooses to raise rentals during a recession.

Now, are they really thinking that it will create jobs for the people?

I question even the concept of ‘work’ for modern citizens of modern societies. Why so we accept that slogging till death is a way of life?? Work is but one dimension of life, alongside relationships, learning, pursuing interests, and such. Furthermore people work because they need the money, and to many it’s something unpleasant and a chore.

People are not meant to work beyond the retirement age, and many hope to make enough to quit their jobs straightaway. Everyone has the right to grow old with dignity and enjoy their later years. Everyone deserves decent wages so they can save enough for retirement. The PAP has denied all these to us.

I look at how the older people end up, and have made up my mind to migrate. I’m sure many others think the same way. Who wants to stay in a cuntry that humiliates its older population like this, when you can move to a country that pays pensions, gives benefits and free healthcare??

aiyoyo

just a thought : what’s the function of cpf?

is it for savings for old age?

is the $ inside getting good returns?

so next time, how? for current workers like us, when we get old?

aiyoyo

Life is not all about working…… at 55 is considered a BONUS, at 62 a Drag??? and at 65 more to Dropping Dead on the JOB……….Time to retire gracefully, travel and have a slower pace of life……….afterall, LIFE IS SHORT!!!

why are Singaporean such ‘YES man’?
is that what being Singaporean all about?
why are the old ppl that are unfortunate to still be working at 65 and above at low wages don’t band together and let themselves be heard by the government?
or is this what they want?
sigh:(

Most people in the GULF don’t even work what’s more at 65? how to service 4 wives with working till 65……So you get people to work for them……Most work for money in a country with lack of resources!
To make matters worst? why bring up issue on extending the retirement in a RECESSION when the younger workers who are retrenched,,,,,,,need a job more importantly than extending a Senior to 65……..just like sending him to the gallows!….Time to retire meaningfully at age 62 or best at 55!

this is the two faces of the same buddha. action does not automatically follow the words spoken.
given a choice would the elderly rather work until they die or ease off a bit to enjoy what’s left of their lives?
Ever ask why the old need to work until very old? yes, why? the answer is so obvious.

When you live in a “MONEY TRAP WORLD” you are subjected to work and work and don’t know when and how to retire………..you suddently get a wake up call if you are diagnosed with Cancer, Heart Attack, STROKE, Stress and many other old age related diseases and tell yourself enough is enough!………….But is too late already!
Plan your LIFE and .RETIRE Gracefully as you are the master of your own destiny!
I retired at 55 and let my money work for me!

Ya i agreed with TKL that our older workers need to work to make a living but this is really sad.

I am sad and speak for myself and many others who are older that we have to work to make ends meet in a First World country that boasts of at least $300 billion in assets. The govt has not given us a cent both when we are unemployed and when we enter into our golden years.

It is another thing to work for leisure i.e. we do it to pass time and another matter altogether if we need to work to survive. The big difference here is all in the economics. The govt has milked us when we are in our prime and when we are weak and old, do they still want us to milk us when we can’t even walk properly nor have the energy to clean the table at MAcdonald?

In Australia, people retire gracefully with a pension to claim as they have high taxes. For all the strange reasons, I don’t mind giving the Australian govt my money when I am in my prime and expects it to take care of me when I am old or sick when I am old. At least, I have peace of mind and don’t have to worry about entering into my golden years. I see many happy retirees in Australia travelling round the country or taking on hobbies when they retire. There is hardly an stress when one retires. In fact, many look forward to retire so that they can do something that they like instead of getting a job to provide an income.

Here, I am worry if I have enough to retire. My CPF is also tied up in a property loan that never seems to finish. Worse, if the ceiling for minimum sum is raised yearly, i have little to withdraw when I retire.

People here just get a raw deal from our govt. Though we don’t pay alot of taxes, we hardly get anything in return from the govt. By advocating a very self independent stance in the population, many may find it difficult to fend for themselves when we grow old due to the failure to work becasue of poor health or other reasons.

I am ok with a higher tax bracket if my retirement is well taken of. If we don’t have enough to save for our retirement, I am afriad that many people here will grow old and desperate.

With the rising Age of the population in SG, I think this is a unavoidable issue. But I hope to clarify something.

That not everyone will WANT to work till death.

There are those that will want to work beyond retirement, I’m one of this type. Because simply, i’ll be bored without anything to do. Playing games 24hr 7 days a week isn’t that fun.

But my concern is for the other group which want to work because they need the money.

The article mention about a 68 year old lady who works because she wants to be independent.

“Madam Lee said: “My children have asked me to stop work, but it is hard.” She said she prefers to be independent financially. “I prefer to be free.””

Why did she want to be independent financially?

The article also mention that.

“She is also glad that being employed means her medical needs are taken care of by the company.”

Is she worried about the rising medical cost? Or does she have a medical condition? (I hope the family do not take offence.)

Sincerely with the above, I would like to voice my opinions but first some assumptions.

68 year. Worked 20 years as House Keeper and before that was a nurse. Assuming she started work at 20 thus a career of 48 years. A Whooping 48 years. That’s likely to be half a lifetime already for most people.

I do have a few questions.
1) Why is it that working after 48 years, she still need to work to be financially independent? 2) Is she worried about putting pressure on her children?
3) Is she worried about rising medical cost due to some conditions?
4) Are there more people like her that want to work beyond retirement because of money?
5) Would families want their parents to work beyond retirement if there is no need?
6) What happened to her CPF which is supposed to cover retirement?
7) What about her medisave? Why is she worried about her medical cost?

To answer my own questions.

1) Why is it that working after 48 years, she still need to work to be financially independent?
2) Is she worried about putting pressure on her children?
It could be that she just like to keep working else she would get bored.
It could also be that she like to travel but do not wish to give additional stress to her children to provide for her trips.
It could also be that she needs the money for living.

3) Is she worried about rising medical cost due to some conditions?
Due to the rising cost and due to the illness that often strike the elderly, medical cost can be very high for elderly. Take my mum for example, she needs to visit the doctor almost monthly and each time, the bill is around 70+. I think that’s still ok but my mum is pretty healthy and fit at the age of 54.

But for other elderly, those who may have medical conditions, who needs to visit the doctor more often. If 1 month 4 times and each time is 70, that would be 280. If 8 times, that’s 560. That’s quite a large sum if you do not have a job. So it’s of no wonder our elderly would want to continue working if their children ain’t well off.

4) Are there more people like her that want to work beyond retirement because of money?
Sincerely, I think it’s a very Big Resounding Yes.

5) Would families want their parents to work beyond retirement if there is no need?
For me, it’s a very Big Resounding No.
I do my best to spend less and sponsor my mum for her trips. We also rent out 1 room which assist to cover her expenses. I have insurance for her to cover any unlucky issues. So thankfully, I think my mum is in a pretty ok situation.

6) What happened to her CPF which is supposed to cover retirement?
If she stays in a HDB 3 room flat. A rough gauge of her wage as a Nurse. It is of a high chance that for 30 years, she won’t have much left in her Ordinary Account. Thus, her retirement savings will only begin from the working year 31st which means she would be in the 3rd year of her housekeeping job.

Thus as a housekeeper, I do not wish to guess how much she earns but if assuming a monthly wage of 1,000 and CPF of 18%, that’s 180 per month for 17 years which will be around 36k.

By being thrifty and spending maybe 500 per month, it will last around 6 years. But let’s not forget any medical fees that may exist. Thus for a average Elderly, it is a high chance that there isn’t enough money for retirement just by depending on the CPF.

7) What about her medisave? Why is she worried about her medical cost?
This is a topic I have yet to find out more. Hope someone can give some views on this.

PS: A request to 1 of the commenter. I hope you can assist to answer some of these questions as you might be in a great position to shed some light on the real situation.

Additionally, I saw this on the yahoo news article.

Singapore to legislate on right to work until 65 – From Yahoo News

“Lee, however, ruled out offer free healthcare, although he acknowledged that many Singaporeans were concerned about the spiralling cost of medical treatment.”

The Lee was PM Lee.
As for the ruling out of Free Healthcare, I sincerely wonder if it’s another Transport Minister all over again. People were just concern about the rising cost, I wonder if any of them asked for Free Healthcare. =(

Anyway, i just feel that for people who have helped the nation by working for 48 years, sincerely they deserve much more subsidies in the form of medical care.

To end, I just wish to say that I do not know how to end this topic which to me is quite a turn off.

Gov seems to believe that everyone should work & be productive till the day they drop dead. To encourage active lifestyles to be led by the elderly through work. They made the wages system in such a way that most folks would not get to retire without the need to work for $ to stay alive at age 55.

I wish gov would not shove their own thinkings that people enjoy “active working lifestyle” till the day they drop dead. I’d love to retire at age 50 or 55. & enjoy the fruits of my labor & my golden years. When I’m old, I’d rather go for walks in the park & enjoy chats than work my entire life.

Everyone has the right to choose their future. Not everyone believes in “active working lifestyle” when he’s old. Democracy!

TO 41) Daniel, actually if u give me around 6 – 10k per mth, i dun mind work till i cannot take it. Of coz if the job is too tough for me, then i’ll let go.

The key point is tat I wan to work and not I need to work.

Woodpecker(#29) said that landlords are squeezine SMEs by raises rental. In order to survive, the SMEs have to resort to cutting jobs from old folks.

I agree with this observation. Wages in Singapore at the lower levels are depressed due to “global competition”. Companies make big profit margins due to low wages. To get the space to run the business, they have to pay higher rentals. If the SME cannot afford the higher rental, they can continue to squeeze wages.

This system is unfair. It leads to wider income gap. In a country with free elected Government, the Government cannot continue this type of inequitable policy, because they will be thrown out of office.

To prevent exploitation of the old and the lower income workers, there is a need to have a minimum wage policy. Even USA has such a minimum wage policy. The minimum wage is based on a wage per working hour. It allows for part time work and flexible work conditions. It applies to local and foreign workers. It is more equitable, and better for social stability.

fg (#24) referred me to the article on the “power of one” and asked my views on how we can avoid getting it right at the beginning. The article referred to the cases of Madoff and Satyam.

It would be dangerous to have most of our money invested with Madoff or Satyam or Lehman minibonds or any single entity. If any of them turned bad, we can lose most or all of our money.

The answer is diversification. We should diversify our investments.

Ironically, Madoff was supposed to be a fund manager who provide a service to manage the investments of his clients. However, he commited fraud.

How can the Madoff situation be avoided in the future? I believed that it should be a mutually or state owned corporation, with proper governance. It seems that governance by shareholders or individuals (in the case of Madoff) (or Enron,Worldcom) does not work.

Normally, I do not wish to digress from the main topic. In this case, let me link back to the topic of keeping seniors at work.

If seniors are given a fair return on their savings, they can achieve financial independence and be able to retire comfortably. They do not have to work. But, if they are “cheated” of their savings, they are forced to continue to work. And now, they are exploited again by the market that gives them the lowest possible wages.

The solution is to elect a Government that looks after the interest of the people at large.

i think very few people believe the government plan for financial independence is actually full proof. and this is the crux of the issue: in life, many will fall through the cracks for being imperfect living under a imperfect system in an imperfect world. now how do you help such people beside forcing them into unending labor? i think the government is making light of labor in the twilight years by ignoring degenerative issues besetting the aged. if so, it’s rather cruel to put old people through “labor camps” because the government wants to shun social responsibilities.

the SIN of the rulers is that they have not created wealth for the people( a BALANCE LIFE and well being for their souls – inclusive of needed rest from all their labors in their winter years) but they have created wealth( excessive riche$$$ for the few – at the expense of the people) for themselves!

agree with TKL

“The solution is to elect a Government that looks after the interest of the people at large.”

In Life , there are different stages. Learning Stage, Accumulation of Wealth Stage and Depletion of Wealth Stage with a life span of 80 years. Retire as early as possible and if 62 years still need to work, something somewhere must be wrong or someone had accumulate wealth directly or indirectly for you and you had nothing left

Think hard about! We are not stupid!!!

If Seniors get a job a security personnel,
I urge that they be paid high high until the sky.
Else, if they not happy, may commit fraud one day and then the cost would be much more!

see , this is the need for people to be paid high high.

chefs should also be paid 1 million a month. Else, they not happy, then they may commit fraud or spit onto your food.

Agree with #30 angry_one on January 9th, 2009 5.38 pm. It is one of my major reasons for my migration plans. If the politics in Singapore stays incorrigibly imbalanced in the next few years, giving up my membership to Singapore Inc is a very real possibility.

As #43 observer on January 10th, 2009 9.17 am has put it so clearly, the 2nd generation MIWs led by the unholy trinity of MM Lee, MM Goh, and PM Lee has failed its people. The last few respectable MIWs (e.g. Ong TC, Rajarathnam, Goh KS) have returned or are on their journey back to their makers.

The solution? See the last statement by #42 Tan Kin Lian on January 10th, 2009 5.49 am. Alternatively, surrender your membership of Singapore Inc in exchange for membership to a real 1st world nation.

43) Tan Kin Lian on January 10th, 2009 5.49 am
“The solution is to elect a Government that looks after the interest of the people at large.”

The question here is they only care about their own interest in making money for themselves and their party. Since when did they ever listen to the people of singapore, since when? quote me an example. All I can see is that whatever they want to do, whether you like it or not they just go ahead and implement it, worse still they passed it as a law so no one can go against them. How many of these cases (mostly to do with price hikes and things that are against their party interest) has already been passed as laws and implemented eversince LHL took over office. Tell me? Try doing these things in country like thailand, South Korea or Japan and see can happen, talking about democracy….oh please stop all these hypocrinism, I can’t imagine how thick skin these people have.

The problem lies in the concept of RETIREMENT.

If there is no such word, then people would not “retire”.

We need to change that. The challenge is a paradigm shift from the word “retirement” to “active aging stage”

Instead of the word, “retiree” or “retired”, use the word “active ager” or “active aged worker”.

Think of working as a way of life: Live to work and work to live.

Think of working as a way of life: Live to work and work to live. – Partisan (#49)

Are you suggesting to work till one drops dead?

y cant we go back to pension scheme like the past?
i tink the elderly shld b allow to sit back and relax in their golden years. is it fair to encourage the elderly to cont working aft 65?

i saw this report here:

http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/01/singaporeans-ranked-lowest/

it seems that CPF is not enough…something is not right w our CPF and govt shld review n rectify its policies in order for plp to retire ‘deservingly’ when they are old. unless its the elderly’s choice to cont working for their own enjoyment.

Agree with most of what you share here Mr Tan. Only I have a niggling feeling about unions being the cure all and solve all-. I came across this great article Mr Tan. Pls do read it and give us your opinion.

http://dotseng.wordpress.com/2009/01/10/ah-kong-ah-ma-are-going-back-to-work-the-great-

The writer seems a bit idealistic, but what he says seems to make sense. For your information.

Nice site! bye

Loyalty is a “very cheap words” nowsdays. Who pay you higher, you go and prositute yourselves to them to meet end needs. That is life in Singapore, aren’t we rule by money, control by money and why foreigner came to Singpore cause of money. Do you think they are loyal, don’t be stupid!!!
But pls believe in fair competitions, so everyone of us will do our best at the lowest possible costs. Prices are always guide by the Power of Demand and Supply and this forces is almost equivalent to God’s Power.
Pls comment if you think otherwise!

If I were a company and is told to re-employ or extend their retirement to 65, then I will consider relocating and getting younger and cheaper labour!…………let the older ones retire gracefully, as with modern day stress will take a toll on older workers that are slow, aging and sometimes can be useless (sorry if it is too strong a phase)….By extending or employing older workers, the young and mid careers employees chances of advancement/promotions will be stifled and surely, some will run away so who is going to help us?…..maybe relocate to Vietnam, Laos and Mynmar all promising markets.

With today’s high demand from companies like “MULTI-TASKING” etc. so where does UNION define what is to be done and not to be done or is it all yes-man!
Ah Kong and Ah Ma will be exploited in that sense ! I’ve seen an old female Cleaner worker in her 60’s in my condo….slightly handicapped and limping, was working tirelessly until she fell and was terminated!

old need to work to survive due to high costs of living, most of which are directly caused by fees, exorbitant utiliities, transport, rents, etc. they want their cpf nest egg but denied. every once a while they throw a few crumbs in form of workfare.
when the top makes noise to tell people to work longer, the actual minions are busy at telling those reaching retirement age – we will cut your salaries and you are entirely at our mercy whether or not to re-employ you at our terms. fair?
or else they are letting in anybody skilled or unskilled to replace you with cheaper wages and forced to work bucket shop hours. then they are holed up in hole of calcutta until one died from chickenpox. of course MOM is not aware of all these abuses.

Many older people, who lost their previous jobs, find it difficult to get another full time job. They should consider working part time, and close to their homes.

I carried out a survey in my blog. Many people replied that part time job is an interesting option. They are willing to try out a part time job paying an hourly rate.

The survey results are shown here:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=11702093&postID=7496499617035387583&isPopup=true

I will be getting someone to develop an internet portal to help people to find part time jobs near their homes. The employers should also consider this type of flexible work force, with a competitive wage structure. The employer will not be burdened with a fixed cost.

After working part time, the older worker may be offered a full time job by the employer, if there is a good fit.

Prime-Aged Citizen Mr Lee Tock Kong spoke at the Reinventing Fair Renumeration Asia Conference organised by the Council of The The Wise. He urged “no let up in paying the seniors fair renumeration so as to keep them at work longer and retire with dignity when they finally have to retire”. He said that outmoded social attitudes and systems have to change, and that seniors should continue to be paid fair and equitable wages for their contributions and work no matter whether they have past their customary retirement age or not. He added that two good examples are MM Lee and President Nathan, who are well rewarded with the world’s highest salaries and perks for their continued contributions beyond their retirement age, while at the same time still enjoy drawing their pensions happily.

Lee Tock Kong, PPA (Pegawai Pandai Angkat )
Prime-Aged Citizen of Sin City.

In Marriage the Church couple take the Marriage Vow like ……”For better or for worst…blar blar blar…..till death do us part!
Now in Working Life, we cannot chose to retire when a mandatory Act is enforced to work till 65 and some may say……….I’ve no choice but to work until death do us part?

I agree that with the topic of that article, i.e. we should continue to better take care of senior citizens. I prefer funding them through better social welfare policies.

This is my current thinking:

Minimum wage

a) Firstly, I’m guessing that it is not so much of an issue that the wages of senior citizens are “unfairly suppressed”. By unfairly suppressed, I mean whether they are paid below the market rate. So in terms of economic distribution, the situation should be already fair generally. Another way of looking at it is that if there is a shortage of senior citizens workers.

b) Rather, the issue I believed is that although the wages are at market rate, it is considered to be lower than what is desired, i.e. it is a social welfare issue, not an economic profit redistribution issue.

c) It may seem that pro-business policies is at fault. But to artificially suppress pro-business policies to give senior citizens a wage advantage above the market rate is to upset economic balances. By pro-business policies, I do not mean policies that give companies an advantage; rather I mean policies that creates a more “efficient” market place, i.e. there is no option that can benefit both producers or CONSUMERS.

d) Imposing a minimum wage may create market inefficiencies, i.e. either companies or consumers absorb the cost. Of course, the impact might not be much. If it’s not much, then it is an effective policy which is also easy to implement. But we probably need actual and local statistics make the case more convincing. Internationally, it is still controversial among economists, so information another country is probably not very useful.

e) Suppose now we agree that senior citizens are given their fair economic share of profits but lacking in social benefits. I personally rather made up using a better social welfare policy which can come in both monetary and non-monetary forms. This I believe is also more transparent.

f) Also, i also hope that we can ease the social stigma of working “after retirement”. Senior citizens should not need to work to survive, but choosing to work should not be associated with disgrace.

Pro-business policies and social welfare

g) I prefer separating economic polices from social welfare policies. I prefer policies which generate as much fair economy activity as possible. Fair as in fair to both businesses and consumers. Then, tax the economic activities to redistribute social welfare to senior citizens. I think this is more transparent, and it can be done without conflicts.

h) In other words, I think we should create an environment that businesses like to stay because they make profits, and consumers are happy because they are getting what they want at the lowest possible price. And corporate and personal income taxes, GST, and other taxes are used to fund social welfare. In this way, we can narrow down the discussion to one place: social welfare policies.

I agree that with the topic of that article, i.e. we should continue to better take care of senior citizens.

Generally, I don’t think (except in some specific cases) senior citizens are economically exploited per say. I think the problem lies in that even though being paid at “fair market rates” and working very hard, it may not be enough for them to sustain a “desirable” standard of living. The direct reason is that, for some of them, the total economic production throughout their lives could not accumulate enough wealth (which is not a disgrace).

“Pro-business” policies are not at fault. By pro-business policies, I do not mean rules that give businesses advantage. What I mean is policies that create a more “efficient” market, to both businesses and CONSUMERS. I don’t think it is productive trying to blame anyone. Rather, they need more social welfare support. It’s a question of where the money comes from and how best to use it.

In other words, I think we should create an environment that businesses like to stay because they make profits, and consumers are happy because they are getting what they want at the lowest possible price. And corporate and personal income taxes, GST, and other taxes are used to fund social welfare.

WIth a separation of economic and social welfare policies, the channel to help senior citizens becomes more direct and transparent. So, all discussions can be focus on getting more budget (from tax revenue) or formulating better policies to better utilise the funds. This makes discussion less complicated.

I agree that with the topic of that article, i.e. we should continue to better take care of senior citizens.

Generally, I don’t think (except in some specific cases) senior citizens are economically exploited per say. I think the problem lies in that even though being paid at “fair market rates” and working very hard, it may not be enough for them to sustain a “desirable” standard of living. The direct reason is that, for some of them, the total economic production throughout their lives could not accumulate enough wealth (which is not a disgrace).

“Pro-business” policies are not at fault. By pro-business policies, I do not mean rules that give businesses advantage. What I mean is policies that create a more “efficient” market, to both businesses and CONSUMERS. I don’t think it is productive trying to blame anyone. Rather, they need more social welfare support. It’s a question of where the money comes from and how best to use it.

In other words, I think we should create an environment that businesses like to stay because they make profits, and consumers are happy because they are getting what they want at the lowest possible price. And corporate and personal income taxes, GST, and other taxes are used to fund social welfare.

WIth a separation of economic and social welfare policies, the channel to help senior citizens becomes more direct and transparent. So, all discussions can be focus on getting more budget (from tax revenue) or formulating better policies to better utilise the funds. This makes discussion less complicated.

(Note: I have to use another nickname, because my comment, exactly duplicated above, is in moderation. I don’t know if TOC blacklisted me, but I don’t see anything wrong with my comment)

Many jobs available to the oldies are actually physically not suitable for them.

Besides general cleaning, those hotel room cleaners need to change the bed sheets of at least 10 rooms per shift. Anyone know the weight of an eight inches thick Q-size mattress?

It is also heart aching to see fragile elderly workers (some as old as 70) washing slippery toilets, clearing crockery, doing over night guard duties etc.

It is not purely because of “face”that many people disapproved of their parents doing the above works

Where is Job safety in Old Age?……………surely as one ages, safety is of paramount importance and must be upheld.

We are the babyboomers born in the early to mid forties and at that point in time age 55 was the norm to retirement……..no questions asked or ever discussed to work beyond…..and it seems that it turn out to be that way whereby 3 of my so called friends passed away at age 65…..so I wonder how to continue working till age 65….it is a touch and go age? Irrespective of what salary is offered as everything has got it’s shelf life or EXPIRY Date!

With unemployment reaching dizzy heights, who on earth wants to employ older workers???………let the young be employed first thing first and older workers take a back seat as things are not looking bright these days

The New World Order “Work Till You Drop Dead”……………….all due to World Financial Woes! Never trust anyone but your survival instinnct and save for the rainy day