The following is copied from the Straits Times, 6 February 2009:
THE salary estimates for political office-holders in the Budget Book are not up to date.
This is why they do not square with those given late last month by Mr Teo Chee Hean, the Minister in charge of the civil service.
Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam yesterday explained a discrepancy in the Budget Book that opposition MP Low Thia Khiang (Hougang) raised during the debate.
The Budget Book lists the budgeted sum for each ministry.
In a speech on Tuesday, Mr Low asked why the estimated expenditure on political office-holders in the coming fiscal year in the Budget Book showed only a 1 per cent dip.
Mr Low recalled that Mr Teo had told Parliament earlier that senior permanent secretaries and entry-grade ministers at the MR4 grade would get 20 per cent less this year, compared to last year.
Mr Tharman said yesterday that Mr Teo’s figures were correct.
‘Let me assure members that the payouts for salaries of political appointees would be determined by the government policy as announced by Minister Teo,’ he said.
‘The estimates in the Budget Book for expenditures on political appointments within each ministry were unfortunately not updated in time.
‘The actual expenditures will of course be reflected in the revised budgetary estimates in the course of the year.’
The explanation prompted Mr Low to ask whether other estimates were also out of date.
Mr Tharman said that the difference in cost arising from the ‘mis-estimate’ of the budget for political appointees was not very large.
Indeed, all estimates in the Budget Book are simply that – estimates, he said. And the Government was likely to get some wrong.
He cited the example of the estimates for stamp duties in 2007. The final sum of $3.8 billion was $2.3 billion higher than what was originally expected.
‘We got stamp duties completely wrong two years ago because no one expected the property markets and the stock markets to boom the way they did so suddenly. That was a large error.
‘And there are lots of smaller errors we make each year because it’s not possible to forecast in advance how each item, our revenues, will turn out – which depends on what’s happening in the economy, what’s happening in the markets, depends on lots of factors.’
In the case of the estimates for political appointees, Mr Tharman said it was ‘a case of not having updated the relevant estimates in each of the ministry’s budgets as distinct from coming out with a wrong forecast’.
———–
While we can understand and tolerate a small error, what had been done to sharpen the estimates in the past which results in more than 30% (of the entire annual budget) surplus year after year? These are not just estimates, it is the People’s money.
The People have also been telling you and/or your predecessor, the Minister for Finance that we have been over-taxed.
The performance of G.I.C. and Temasek should be estimates as well.
Estimation has not been a forte for Mdm. HO CHING because of the BIG 5.
The BIG 5 are 1) Thailand’s Shin Corp, 2) Australia’s ABC Learning, 3) America’s Merrill Lynch, 4) American’s Citigroup, 5)U.K.’s Barclays
By the way, from Bloomberg’s report..
“Temasek posted losses smaller than the decline in the global markets last year because it reduced stock holdings early in the crisis, Singapore’s Finance Minister Tharman Shanmugaratnam said last month. ”
Did they sell any of the BIG 5, many Singaporeans are wondering?
Well, it is quite typical of what they have been doing. saying something at one point and contradicting themselves later. Tt’s their “forte”. most recent case will be the reduction in public transport fare case when they say that previous increase was not due to oil.
“He cited the example of the estimates for stamp duties in 2007. The final sum of $3.8 billion was $2.3 billion higher than what was originally expected.”
So there is a surplus of 1.5 billion afterall, the credit went to the govt. the ministers got their pay increased.
“Mr Low recalled that Mr Teo had told Parliament earlier that senior permanent secretaries and entry-grade ministers at the MR4 grade would get 20 per cent less this year, compared to last year.
Mr Tharman said yesterday that Mr Teo’s figures were correct.”
So if LTK did’nt bring it up, there will be another surplus, so the ministers can still keep their current pay or the most cut by 1% only.
That guy right, we should just TRUST them.
A system based on trust. What a 1st world system.
Will they also get the GST,ERP,license fee estimates wrong? Then, that will be good news.
no wonder these talents are paid millions.
this guy can really estimate among others.
Very impressive.
I am sure all people, apthetic or not would agree what a talent this guy is.
And the ordinary people in Singapore are not dumbasses anymore.
Look like
Gahmen’s mistake is always honest mistake or mistake not up-to-date, therefore absolve of any punishment.
Other people’s mistake must be genuine mistake and ought to be penalised.
Mr Shanmugaratnam is being disingenuous – there’s a big difference between misjudging how much one is paid and how much one needs to pay.
If the estimates of stamp duty collection was wrong in 2007, that was somewhat understandable, because the government could at least reasonably claim that it did not know in advance exactly how much it would be paid by the public. The amount would depend on economic conditions, etc, which can be difficult to judge one year in advance.
But the case in Ministerial salary is different – how can the government say that it doesn’t know in advance how much it would pay its officeholders? Surely this will be a sum that should be more or less known sometime in advance.
to notalone
The Singapore investment company now holds about 189 million shares in Bank of America after converting its Merrill Lynch stock. Yesterday close $4.78
The purchase price was ?????? Anyways BoA in deep deep shit at the moment
to notalone BTW Mdm. HO CHING stepping down
Maybe someone here can enlighten us on the difference between the word ESTIMATE and the word GUESS.
this is one excellent example why I personally DO NOT agree on a One Party Thingy irregardless whether it is a good one or not. It is more for double checking purposes.
Book need to be audit by exterior parties. NKF is a good case study i feel. Even as at today, I was wondering if not for the pure STUPIDITY of the accused being too “big headed” and start to sue, probably till now we are still happily donating $ to NKF which spend indiscriminately.
12) Tan SA
So sad to hear that our Merill lynch investment of US$5.9B has fallen to below US$1B.
Good that LTK noticed the numbers discrepancies ? If not our money minister could have gotten away in his numbers trick…
To me this is uniquely Singapore – ‘honest mistakes’
To Farquhar:
You are politically correct to say that TS is disingenuous. But it shows how crooked they are using oneset of numbers for one purpose, and trying to use another set of numbers for another. Can we called this misrepresentation like what the banks did when selling structrured products ??
14) fish ‘n’ chips on February 6th, 2009 9.36 pm Maybe someone here can enlighten us on the difference between the word ESTIMATE and the word GUESS
to guess is to arrive at or commit oneself to an opinion about in this case the Budget in particular the salary estimates for political office-holders
to estimate is to think, believe, or suppose to form or conjecture in this instance to presume, or assert (a fact) with sufficient information based on Budget 2008 the total estimated salary of political office-holders.
In other words, trying to avoid the issue.
What is the point having a budget statement and accounting statement at end of day if it is all scam ?
If not for LTK’s questions,
I wonder when would i ever know of such thingies.
I like to send a personal ‘Thank You!’ to our esteemed leader.
So? Think you can shock and surprise me with this piece of wonderful news? I knew it all along. And since we’re on this topic, you might want to check on the juridical laws…. it’s not updated.
how about the projected budget deficit that became a embarrassingly gross surplus?
I just wonder what other important aspects/things are still not updated?
The four most important things are:
1. Money.
2. Health.
3. Laws.
4. Statistics.
1. Money. Now our honourable Finance Minister has admitted that there were serious errors in financial estimates. So that it one tackled.
2. Health. Has the list of poisonous items been updated correctly by the AVA and other medical authorities?
3. Laws. Has our statuette been updated correctly together with all their amendments and what not?
4. Statistics. Have all the statistics published in the press been updated correctly before they were published?
If govt depts are short of staff to make the necessary updates in time, this recession is a very good opportunity for the govt to hire more people (as temporary staff) to create jobs for the people.
Don’t play play with the citizens’ money, health, legal rights and statistical knowledge, please.
Didn’t know there were so many “large” loopholes that pose easy manipulation to justify their unfounded crediblity.
Haiz, so simple! The Estimates are left there uncorrected so that they can put back what they cut mah,once the Debate is over. Then they can say it was reviewed in parliament duh..when gahmen is wrong, you shaddup..when they are right, you pay up lor!
is the new gst handout wrong also coz it is not up to date? (rich people living in hdb)?
shouldnt it be peg to the salary?
I TRUSTED Bernie MADOFF.
I live to REGRET IT.
Live and LEARN.
No body except GOD can tell whether we are in GOLDEN PERIOD.
ALL INVESTMENT are for the L–O–N–G TERM—–after it has gone SOUR..
Chip Goodyear–marked all investment to market, publish it, start from clean slate, do not be the FALL GUY.
I thought Minister Mental Lee guaranteed this morning that nobody here is going to go begging in the street, lose their home and starve.
Wonder how he is going to fulfil that. In good times, you already a lot of people begging, losing their home and some children don’t even get to go to school because they are so poor.
remember the famous Chee ” data fabrication” case?
absolute Power is bad.
I tell you, you don’t know where else the money went.
Singapore is rich country but most of us slog all our lives, eat little or not good, look sick and worry all the time.
Weird!
Mr. Farquhar
You are right, certain budget figures may differ over time, but not salaries for only the next 12 months.
According to Temasek Chairman Mr. Dhanabalan, Mdm. Ho Ching has been mulling to leave since 2005, and until today, she still has not decided where to go after stepping down. A ‘one of most powerful women’ who doesn’t really know where to go after 4 years of mulling, is not powerful, may be powderful.
Mr. President Nathan…
You have approved a budgetary plan to dip into the reserve, probably based on a set of estimate figures with mistakes here and there. Did you and your advisory team read carefully or not? Dont play play leh!
Actually, for a minister to present a budget with wrong figures of the order of 19% which based 1 minister’s pay is about 190K a year, is a very serious error.
Especially in the light of the current crisis.
Also, in the pecking order of accuracies, we should expect the minister to be the 2nd highest – first order being the PM.
For him to commit such a mistake and given the nature of the mistake, it is natural to think that or suspect that the integrity of the service.
If you tell me one mistake in 20 years, that would be fine but a sequence of mistakes over 1 year is a big problem and reflect the decadence of the system.
If the data or estimates were inaccurate, it is the onus of the Finance Minister or his Ministry to inform Members of Parliament before the start of the Budget Debate, and not when he has been asked or pointed out by another honorable Member of Parliament. A convenient silence to errors within documents issued to MPs for reference, study and consideration must not be taken as the norm of the day. Debates in the Parliament are serious matters should not be taken seriously.
Failure to do so implies sheer negligence of fiduciary duty and responsibility.
Only an unreserved apology and a promise not to make the same mistake again to the Speaker of the House and all other members of the whole Parliament can justify the matter to move on. It should not be taken lightly. Otherwise it makes a mockery of the whole Parliamentary System.
Correction: Last sentence of the first paragraph should read as:
“Debates in the Parliament are serious matters which should be taken seriously.
My unreserved apology for the typing errors. Thanks.
By the way, for those of you who are championing the JCS for the ah kong and aunties working in the coffeeshops and mamashops, do you know how much they make a month?
You can check, and I assure you most of them make less than 500 a month and that implies that they don’t pay or receive much CPF if any.
So, the JCS doesn’t benefit them at all directly.
what kind of jobs pay 500 to 2500?
Take a guess.
The scheme is as suspected benefit the GLCs and NTUCs.
Doing so also is of a lower leakage than other means of prop-out measures from the govt.
Very sly right?
‘a case of not having updated the relevant estimates in each of the ministry’s budgets as distinct from coming out with a wrong forecast’
Any ideas how are the 2 different.
MOF not knowing the actual budget of the ministries for the previous year? You believe? why can’t it add up all the monies disbursed to the ministries?
Rubbish.
20% ~ 180 K x all the ministers.
Take a guess how big that number is…
Thank you TOC for bring up the HK upgrading exam.
That’s why Mah BT go on to talk about the upgrading efforts of the GOVT.
But as evidence, there is very little meat in his propositions and it doesn’t excite people.
Factor in the fact that he seldom delivers or take a long time to deliver, we should take it like he is farting aloud again.
I will asked the govt to show some statistics/estimates on how many people benefited from JCS. Of those, what percentage are Singaporeans, PRs and non-residents. Of Singaporeans and PRs, how many have stayed and contributed to Singapore for more than 10 years..
AFAIK, the low salaried are usually foreigners and our govt knows that too. Are we giving away the money Singaporean build up to help Temasek and foreign workers?
” And since we’re on this topic, you might want to check on the juridical laws…. it’s not updated.”
That so true. So next time, anyone that get arrest by police because PAP doesn’t like your face and you said that there is no such known law, the police can happily say “It’s just not updated yet”
Frankly I have no idea why some civil servants are so incompetent. They keep records of staff but have no updated records of their salaries. If estimates means averages of staff’s salaries, how difficult can the calculations and record-keeping be, given that governments are supposed to be using the “best” in software and everything else??
Mind you – I was a civil servant in my first job and I excelled in what I did although I am not some top officer or graduate. (I quitted after I passed my bar exam and moved to a private sector.)
The one above me took credit for everything his subordinates did. If anyone thinks he did it all by himself without a team, he’s wrong.
Many of us have practical experience in the process of budgeting. We know that generally budget items which are not or are less controllable are harder to estimate accurately, like revenue growth and new busnesses. On the other hand, administrative and operating costs like salaries, rentals, utilities are fairly structured or stable in the short term such as a year are a breeze to estimate quite accurately, including known changes like Ministers’ salaries.
So was it an honest mistake committed by a best team on a mundane and simple thing like this. If it is, then it’s another sign of an over-rated and highly paid civil service. Are we to trust that other parts of the budget are not mistakenly “over-estimated”. Perhaps the increase of the Defence Budget by $600 million is also a typo error with an extra “0″ at the back?
Or is it a “deliberate” mistake with a more devious motive? But we are told to trust, and trust we must that it is not. Is it there because there’s is an unspoken intention to reinstate the ministers’ paycut before the end of the budget year with the first sign of a prospect of a recovery, or a plan to pay for an additional minister like the one who is leaving her job in October?
Figures! Figures! Figures! This is what these papees ministers are good for, getting more figures to confuse the public and when someone points out their discrepencies, Oops! they are not updated yet!!!!!!!!! what rubbis!
you mean all this while
singapore inc
do not have a prebuget counts on forthcomin salaries charts?
it not based on
PERFORMANCE mey?
if liked that
i also want to chane my nick to
ialsowantobecomethefinanceminister
whoa!
how to do business in the
REAL world?
how to count production cost?
no wondered
all our GIC/temasek inc industries
went to the dogs and dusts
causin the sand prices to jack up
while in the middle east
you could practicaLLEE get the same sands for free…..
Million Dollar minister also make mistakes. Sad!
Simple! singaporeans kenna plucked through and through time and again. Go on believing them is as good as eating shits as your daily meals. Don’t be surprise to hear that our nation reserve becomes just an empty shell in time to come, at the rate that they threw away our taxpapers money, may be a guess but observing from the way they spend the country’s reserve, it can become true one day, too late then.
By the time Singapore is broke, the top managers aren’t… just like Lehman Bros, Merrill Lynch, G.M. , Citibanks.. the CEOs and Chairmans are still laughing to the banks.
So do we still need foreign talent whom also screwed up the top companies? That’s why i never believe in ‘Foreign talent’ policy.
Richard Fuld, CEO of Lehman, claims he lost about 10 millions USD in share options when his company went down, but he did not mention, in just a period of 8 years, for his salaries and bonuses, he had already drawn down a staggering 480 million US$.
See the similarity in the ‘style’ of these people when compare to our leaders?
#33, #34,
I agree such incidences of mis-estimates or not-updated figures must not be taken lightly. Brushing them off simply is not acceptable, especially looking at hom much the top civil servants and ministers are paid. There must be apology, promise that such occurence will never repeat and explanation on meaures taken to ensure that no repetition is possible. I felt that the matter was handled too lightly by the Finance Mnister.
In the same vein, I would like to thank opposition MP, LTK for his good work in pointing out the descrepancies and his contribution to the debate thus far. i would encourage many to view the recordings of his contributions in the debate on TOC. I wonder how many other MPs have noticed the mistake.
aiyoyo
those ELITEs so hi salary package!!!
commoners salary leh???
what’s the logic???
how to overcome this scenario???
aiyoyo