Well, there is a place called the Wild West and there are other places which are not so wild. And the new media – some of it are Wild West and anything goes and people can say anything they want, and tomorrow take a completely contrary view. And well, that is just the way the medium is.
But even in the Internet, there are places which are more considered, more moderated where people put their names down and identify themselves. And there is a debate which goes on and a give and take, which is not so rambunctious but perhaps more thoughtful. That is another range.
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I think that is a fairer comment from PM Lee than the one-sided, propagandistic articles we’ve been getting from the Straits Times about New Media and bloggers.
I hope the ST will stop trying to lump all together and paint all with the same brush. The Internet and Blogosphere are more diverse than what the ST keeps making it out to be.
Andy Ho and Chua Lee Hoong, Mui Hoong…. pls take note!
Asking people to identify themselves?
sounds like David Leong and our trusted TKL ?
am i missing something?
1) Andrew Loh on February 24th, 2009 12.05 am
for the 1st time, i am disappointed. :(
I’m not surprised with PM Lee’s statement. It is politically correct for his office. But if he thinks he can induce more netizens to reveal themselves, may I challenge him to first reveal GIC’s detailed losses before anybody should do so? The other thing is whether he is telling us that we should all make nice polite supporting and accepting views of PAP’s policies and be more like the MSM, before we can be regarded as not Wild Men.
After 40 years of PAP deliberate political sterilisation and suppression of dissent, it is time for us to shake off our apathy and exercise our political rights as citizens. Until and unless there is credibility in the govt’s promise to cultivate more openness, they should not expect netizens to lower their guards against a tyrannical despotic govt which has a record of smugly using strong arm tactics thru the ISA Act and defamation laws with impugnity.
The onus is on the ruling Party govt to reform itself so that the Wild West will transform on its own accord into fertile estuaries where “a hundred flowers bloom, and the hearts of men contend.”
There is a book written by Noam Chomsky titled “Manufacturing Consent”.
A particularly useful book to guard agianst servile Press and Media – at a time of coming elections!
he sures sounds like challenging the people to put their names down, then put place and time…like ah bengs going to “pian zhui”
I think LHL is talking cock here as usual.
His views are dated and not realistic.
Worst, he is part of the group that made people scared of voicing out.
For those who can read and comprehend, even if the person who expressed it didn’t list his real name, his analysis will be appreciated.
But if he publishes his real name, he risk persecution.
Why would he want to do something like that?
analysis which are not good will be shot down in any internet forum.
That is our empirical experience.
His opinion here has no substance.
i think it is quite a well-balanced view from LHL. He admits there are wide-ranging contrary views on the new medium. I believe he has resigned to the fact that he and his team have to engage..which is why is preparing to fight the next GE using it ! If so i think it will create more jobs for the IT and new media workers.
The message is so direct and simple yet some of you can still go ga-ga over PM’s comments. ‘Fair comment’ my foot!
Very soon, blog hosts will be required to have all its commentators using their real names, otherwise the law will come after them..
Now you know why we continue to be so stupid and gullible?
mustn’t fall into the trap. Anonymity is like a covert operation and unseen and this poses a great danger to the garment. But if the gahment takes views seriously anonymous views have more truth because they come straight from the hearts, no dressing up, no pulling of punches. Raw views are true views.
I don’t see putting your names serves this purpose effectively.
I hope they are feeling the heat in the wild wild west.
Why do you think I stopped reading the Straits Times? Because it’s feeding me propaganda and loads of ‘rubbish’.
Likewise for the internet, blogsphere. If one keeps on sprouting rubbish, he will soon find that no one reads his blog, or he starts to get flaming, rebuttal-type comments.
I have a choice if I want to read. I WANT to have a choice on what I read and what other alternatives there will be. And once you enforce a name or identity, I might have a watered-down version of the actual feelings on the ground.
Is that what the government want? Or is it election coming that the PAP wants Net users/readers to toe the line?
Just ask the P65 MPs who blog in their site. How many flaming comments did they get for their toe-the-line, support PAP policies articles? What about the Young PAP blog?
One has to wonder why. The beautiful thing about the internet is it has free speech and it has its own regulations. There will always be those wild accusations, on-fringe comments that will infuriate any government officials. Each will have their readers and the majority of the online readers will decide how such articles should be handled through their responses.
To try to make everyone think like the PAP, is akin to trying to make oneself god and to have everyone worship you only.
Dream on.
Kaffein
1. employers can have policies to fire you if you are found to be visiting certain sites, which is legally ok done in private.
2. employers may fire you if you are found to make comments or posts about certain things that is against its principles or policies or believes.
3. if you have a view that differs from your boss or the authorities, if you goon do go use and show your REAL identity, you could be fired or land into trouble.
4. Showing your true identity is IMPRACTICAL , unwise, foolish and Stiffles Creativity and Counter-Productive-cum-Progress , in some cases. For eg. who would dare to HONESTLY make an objection kind of comment using his real identity? What if this comment will piss your boss? or some authority or vip?
What could this result in , even if everyone uses real identity? I think people will tend to Sing the Praises, Rah-Rah and you will only hear feel-good , only the good stuff kinds of views, suggestions, comments. This is Counter-Progress, stiffles creativity , induce Fear and the society becomes fake and people encouraged to wear masks, others learn that life is about praising vip. Are people generally Self-Preservatory? This could get worse. Are times bad? Things could get worse. People may become more survival-oriented and forsake Honesty, Values and their Ideals in exchange for preserving the self.
No matter which part of the world you go, there are reasons to be Anonymous.
Why is voting secret in nature? i no no leh.
Majulah!
In addition, let’s count the number of people who put up their hands and identified themselves to be counted… and see where it got them.
1. Remember Ryan (was it Goh?) and the Alpha SIA union. He got kicked out for being an ‘undesirable’ PR.
2. JBJ
3. Goplan Nair
4. CSJ, CSC
5. Tak Boleh Tahan
6. Kangaroo Court Trio
Well, you might say – but these are outward acts of ‘dissent’. Well, it’s just another form or medium, be it street demostration, openly voicing out their disgruntlement, or unhappiness, etc. To me, the internet is just another usuable medium.
Also, what makes you think identifying yourself on the Net makes you a more credible person when the points you are highlighting are exactly how the ground people feel?
I sense the PAP becoming more desperate to try to clamp down people who are asking for the truths – truths like how much did the GIC and Temasek actually lost, towncouncil funds fiasco, CPF relation to GIC and Temasek, etc.
Without the fervent probes and questions pushed (anonymity has played a very vital role), who would have raised these questions in Parliament since we are not really an open society to discuss?
Kaffein
I recall that TKL and David Leong also encourages people to REVEAL their identity.
I actually support the idea, just 1 thing….
would anyone want to disclose all the net activities he has done? would he be ok with that?
is there other ways to find out our identities? if so, why still need to disclose? what is the reason behind?
so, in principle i support. ;)
Personally I find it absolutely ridiculous to even want to debate on the issue of anonymity in the net. The entire concept of the web is based on an uncontrolled form of media and thus freedom of expression is inevitable, and infact encouraged for its continuum of vibrancy.
Let whoever wants to be identifiable be, and whoever wishes to remain anonymous be. People who are capable of cognitive thinking will be able discern the truth from fallacious rumours in the net.
“I sense the PAP becoming more desperate to try to clamp down people who are asking for the truths – truths like how much did the GIC and Temasek actually lost, towncouncil funds fiasco, CPF relation to GIC and Temasek, etc.”
These are even bigger and more important matters of accountability that need to be addressed rather than throwing up some confusing noisy smokescreen to match the noisy net anonymity.
Rambunctious blog is interesting, it is vibrant, there is a lot of creativity. of course , the PM prefers more rambutans, less headache for him
And they want the names of each and every bacterium.
Anonymity has to be ONLY a symptom; it can never be the MAIN reason and even less of a CAUSE; if anything its like having red spots over ones body; only a stupid physician devotes his time to treating these spots with ointment while avoiding the weight of evidence to suggest his time would be better spent if he tried to ferret out what may account for the deeper underlying causes for these spots.
Cheong Yip Seng (the master of impossibility) once travelled all round the world like Phileas Fog to seek the holy grail for our internet and came up with a 200 page treatise – and he did NOT even bother to spend a single page, paragraph or sentence writing about the causal factors i.e the climate of fear – under every practical definition of the word “progress”, that has to be a travesty of rational logic.
No, my friends. IMHO, this is very much like a case of a man who laments why his new wife doesnt even seem to do the things which one usually expects from a dutiful wife; and instead he proceeds to scold and threaten her as he feels slighted. He is a desperate man. A man who is clearly at his wits end.
But a wise man would never ever do that; for one he doesnt need to resort to threats to get a woman to comply to his will; he knows the way to a woman heart; above all, a wise man knows only too well, even if he wins a thousand battles with threats and ultimatums; he would have lost the whole war in one throw – as its really waged in the heart and minds.
SD
The use of internet is a TOOL for polictics in USA.
Obama got so much attention with the free flow of news from the internet.
SG want to follow them???? Hmmmmm…..maybe when there is really changes.
Of course he have grown out of his big “A” attitute from his younger day when he gave his speach in 1 of our university.
But daddy is still behind all his decision I “BET”.
Put their names down, identified, and get sued? Lol…
Kaffein:
In addition, let’s count the number of people who put up their hands and identified themselves to be counted… and see where it got them.
But we’re talking about blogging here, and look at bloggers who have revealed their identities: Alex Au, Ng E-jay, Andrew Loh, Leong Sze Hian, Gerald Giam, Tan Kin Lian…
Aren’t you “doing a PAP” here by listing only one side of the picture?
What they did to Catherine Lim and they want us to reveal our names? Start with the kids in kindergarten first. Tell them from now on, for the rest of their lives, as long as they want to live and work in Singapore, whenever they want to express themselves, they must put down their names and IC numbers!
Do they do that in North Korea?
LHL is simply resorting to the threatening ways which is the signature hallmark of his father’s ruling style, albeit in a calmer tone.
But he has to understand that ppl no longer feel intimidated and subscribe to such threats. On the contrary, he should embrace the new world and adopt a more consultative approach to garner the support which is diminishing fast for him.
Anonymity is a personal choice. Nobody should be ordering anyone to reveal his or her identity. It is time to vote Vivian Balakrishnan out of office. He is no more than the People’s menace and a trouble maker.
But we’re talking about blogging here, and look at bloggers who have revealed their identities: Alex Au, Ng E-jay, Andrew Loh, Leong Sze Hian, Gerald Giam, Tan Kin Lian…
Aren’t you “doing a PAP” here by listing only one side of the picture? – Jackson Tan (#23)
By listing TOC writers, are you implying that TOC asserts that the blogosphere should go without anonymity? TOC as a collective does not make that kind of assertion, unlike the PAP government which orders people around to adhere to their unofficial policies so that Singapore can continue to project an illusion of democracy.
Saying anything you want in whatever wild west media can never lead to more serious consequences than doing anything you want.
While we examine PM’s speech, it is imperative we examine more closely whether his govt has been guilty of doing anything it wants.
Wild East you might say !
How many citizens agree to
this govt’s obscene pay,
this govt’s redrawing of election boundaries, implementation of GRCs,
this govt’s idea of an unelected president, two terms already,
this govt’s special arrangement of father, son and daughter-in-law,
this govt’s muzzling the MPs when they are suppose to speak for us,
this govt’s enforced rule on MPs to vote according to party’s directive,
this govt’s absolute control over the state media for its propaganda,
this govt’s insatiable lust for more reserves at the expense of its citizens,
this govt’s lack of transparency and accountability in managing our reserves,
this govt’s neglect of its male citizens being disadvantaged by national service.
this govt’s pathetic record for helping the needy.
So essentially, this govt should not sweat the small stuff about what is said in the new media, but reflect on its own actions.
Because in doing anything it wants, this govt has alienated many of the citizens.
…….and how many citizens agree that we had many years of peace, progress and prosperity??
Yes there is a place called cyberspace and that is where people say it as it is.
The internet is a eye opener because this is a place where people with common views come together to openly provide their thoughts. It sets the wheel in motion and now the GOVT has to either ride the wave or get washed out.
2 things can happen here, you try and claim the internet is the wild wild west, but to the people who use the internet, they know there are tons of news about Singapore that they don’t find in the straits times… after a while the viewer understands the pattern and role of the propaganda machine.
The other is you try and regulate, and you can never get there… this is porn… you try to keep it away … but its right in your face ….. what do you do ?? EDUCATE yourself and your children, learn to manage. Not hide …….
the way he puts considered and moderated together makes me laugh: what a subversive way to equate the two!
Jackon Tan #23 wrote:
“But we’re talking about blogging here, and look at bloggers who have revealed their identities: Alex Au, Ng E-jay, Andrew Loh, Leong Sze Hian, Gerald Giam, Tan Kin Lian…
Aren’t you “doing a PAP” here by listing only one side of the picture?”
Not really, what I’m saying is the choice to remain anonymouse or to reveal one’s identity should be left to the person. Who are they to control?
The reason I’ve listed those names are these: PAP is slowly coming to terms the impact of the new media has upon one’s thinking and lifestyle. If you are a threat, to them, be prepared to face the music. Likewise for anyone who has revealed their names.
Look, if identity = credibility, then why is one’s vote a secret?
Kaffein
Do we prefer people to hide their identities and reveal their true thoughts, or reveal their identities and hide the truth?
#32,
Quote : Do we prefer people to hide their identities and reveal their true thoughts, or reveal their identities and hide the truth?
Ans : Nope, ppl who can reveal their identities and at same time say/write only niceties that the garhmen wants to hear – that’s what our PM wants. I say he is DREAMIN big time !
28) mrthinktalk on February 24th, 2009 7.57 pm …….and how many citizens agree that we had many years of peace, progress
True, we have many years of peace and progress. Older generations will appreciate this more (I fit into this category by the way). But wait amoment, one need to also ask, at what expense? I think if want a response both sides of the stories should be presented. There are always two sides to a coin. Omitting one part of any story at most can only be said its half truth. If and ONLY if we have full transparency and accountability in anything doings,
To be fair to the PM. He is tryiing hard no doubt, but not some of his ministers. I think Singapore will progress better and our fellow Singaporeans perhaps will be more engaging. Do you think Singapore can go further than what we are now? Definitely yes, if
they are genuinely wanting to engage the citizenry. I do not see that happening anytime soon. Perhaps, age really had deteriorated my eyesight. What I see now is a shade of grey in an otherwise blue sky,
smallvice585 (#26):
By listing TOC writers, are you implying that TOC asserts that the blogosphere should go without anonymity? TOC as a collective does not make that kind of assertion, unlike the PAP government which orders people around to adhere to their unofficial policies so that Singapore can continue to project an illusion of democracy.
I never implied that, and I don’t see how I can be seen as implying that. I’m writing in response to Kaffein’s argument that people who identify themselves ended up being prosecuted by the government. Moreover, Alex and E-jay aren’t TOC writers.
Kaffein (#31):
Not really, what I’m saying is the choice to remain anonymouse or to reveal one’s identity should be left to the person. Who are they to control?
True enough. But of the six examples that you’ve listed, five of them has nothing to do with anonymity or non-anonymity online. Ultimately, what I’m trying to say is that, the government won’t prosecute bloggers who criticise them with proper justification; this is a self-concocted fear (if they do, Alex Au will be serving his life sentence now!).
Nonetheless, I agree that it is the right, and the unique feature, of the internet that one can have a certain amount of anonymity, and it is up to the individual to decide whether they want to use it. However, it is my observation that non-anonymity is correlated to credibility. While this may not mean that a particular anonymous comment or blog post is not credible, it may mean that, on the whole, anonymous ones are less credible.
“How many citizens agree to”
Most importantly,
“How many citizens agree that PAP stands for Singapore ?”
Please, don’t tell me it is not when the PAP can even lost so much money without accountability and responsibility to the citizens, the major stakeholders of Singapore. They are behaving as though the money belong to them, using and misabusing state money with secrecy and without transparency. Even a dynasty family controls everything in Singapore. You don’t have to agree PAP = Singapore but the PAP behave as such.
Even the devil can be good sometimes as long as the goodness help to achieve its agenda.
No one should ever dictate or set the framework to encourage either anonymity or disclosure.
The Net is neutral. It should remain that way. Let individuals make their own informed decision.
The new media to them (PAP) and its the old media to us (People who rely on the news via the internet)
To them its like porn, how do we regulate it ? The more you wanna try and put a control on it, the more it gets out of control, because there are no pro govt editors to edit the content that is scattered on the milky way.
If the old dinosaur does not learn to adapt, it will soon be extinct.
Oh by the way, does anyone know what our govt is doing to save Singapore from this bad times? I think since we pay sky high salary to them, the should be able to do something that others cant do….. please no slogan and commitees
On the point of “some of it are Wild West and anything goes and people can say anything they want, and tomorrow take a completely contrary view.”
I remember a Minister said no mean testing during the heat of an election. Then, after the election, went off to implement the mean testing. During the same period, he also denied the nursing home concept in JB. Now, there is also talk of it in debate.
I wonder our parliament debate is another Wild Wild West that our PM is referring to.
By encouraging or urging people to reveal their identities on the net,
may i humbling request an honest answer from you:
1. if a person has illness or disease that if he reveals or somehow such personal private details is disclosed to his employer , directly or indirectly,
and cost him his job, would it be fair? assuming, the disease is not communicable and does not affect the job and not in the company policies or rules? But if the boss discriminate how? Is there a reason for privacy? Is there a purpose for privacy? Is there no need for anonymity? Can a person not be allowed to discuss sensitive issues anonymously where otherwise, discussion would not be possible?
y / n ?
Mr Prime Minister, if you want netizens to put their names down and identify themselves after criticising the govt you should not have threatened your political opponents at the PAP rally at Raffles Place during the 2006 GE. You said you would fix them if more than 10 of them got elected into Parliament.
Before the 1981 by-election your father said that if even 1 opposition party member get into Parliament , Singapore’s economy would suffer as foreign investors would not put their money here. He was wrong.
You should dismantle all the unfair hurdles your father had put up to prevent opposition parties from getting a foothold in parliament.
When your citizens feel safe in another decade or two, they will put their names down.
Noted. Simply not read the MSM and they won’t be relevant at all.
Stop reading MSM, stop watching local TV.
36) Daniel on February 24th, 2009 10.06 pm “How many citizens agree to”
Daniel! The answer is obviously “NON” not even those working in the civil service would agree, if so then they are just doing it to keep their job, thats all and nothing else. As they are now losing their popularity as the days passed for what the people have now indeed discovered their hidden things, for the first time in history they became so scared. Thats why they are so desperate now and will come out with anything they can think of to shut our mouths. This thingy is just like cancer cells, its just spread and multiply and no one can stop it, why? because its the facts and the truth which they has been keeping the people in the dark for far too long. You can call it its their karma effect or whatever, all things good and bad have to come to an end, ultimately! no one escape.
Can we blame the netizens for this “Wild west” syndrome? How did the blogosphere become the underground media where dissenters converge to pour out their rants and impassioned diatribes, vitriol and venom? Imho, the tone has been set by an arrogant one party govt who always thinks it knows best and a subservient and docile Press and Media channels, the MSM. The MSM has been considered (rightly so) to be controlled solely for the use of govt and party propaganda since Singapore became an authoritarian state. The more the MSM spouted pro-PAP and pro-govt angles instead of just reporting the news and stops fawning at the feet of the govt, the more acid and “wild” the attacks, innuendoes,insults etc will be. There is this prevalent perception that the ST is obsessively fearful of offending the govt and therefore takes ‘self-censorship’ too seriously. The result is that when readers think they cannot get a fair “hearing” in the MSM columns, they publish them in blogs and online fora. There is no need to submit to editorial discretion or anybpdy’s discretion if you put out yr own blog. One can choose to remain anonymous for all kinds of reasons. So, until and unless the MSM is truly free and seen to be free, we can hardly expect the discussion of public and political issues to migrate back to the MSM. The internet has come to stay, and even govts – no less the inimical Singapore govt – have to come to terms with it. Publish or perish – on the Internet!
43) tiredsingaporean on February 25th, 2009 12.04 am
“As they are now losing their popularity as the days passed for what the people have now indeed discovered their hidden things, for the first time in history they became so scared. ”
This is not new. Dae-Ja-Vu : did you recall the extreme turnout in last GE rally speech by LTK? And the result was opposite.
What i am mean is popularity cannot be used as a measurement. Its the singaporean mentality. I see that its all Psychological. Where is opposition’s strategy?
“”Fool me once,
Shame on you.
Fool me twice,
Shame on me.”
another popular comic version :
“”Fool me once,
Shame on you.
You fooled me,
you can’t get fooled again.”
[#27actions hurt more than words]
Good observation! I agree with you.
Because of their GREED, we the citizens were being made victims. How long can this goes on?
Whether it is one party system or a a two party or a multi-party government, there will still be virulent attacks at those in authority on the blogsspherei. There must be less than 50% not happy about something the Government does. Government has not yet responded in a big way to netcitizens. Hope it can do so soon but tempered with kindness and consideration!
The same strategy as listed above however in this case, you’ re dealing in sheer volume. This is more effective than sending out individual emails but also carries a huge price. Sending out mass email is dangerous to the health of your identity. Many times doing so will result if you losing your email account as well as your account with your ISP. Email spam over the years has become something that people take very seriously and it is something that you do not want to get into. While by dealing in such bulk…
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旧金山移民
Also welcome you!