No wonder I have always felt that the Cantonese language sounds very good. I especially enjoyed those Hong Kong serials and grimaces when these were translated to Mandarin. It somehow seem to lose the flavour and meaning and humour when it was translated. We have been misled for decades. My children are not able to speak Cantonese in spite of being Cantonese.

Is this rebuttal being sent to the straits times forum??? It one thing to defence the use of mandarin but it smack of arrogant for Principal Private Secretary to label others STUPID for advocating our ancestry languages.

For some devious reason we find that the government is ONLY promoting Mandarin and not any other language like Hindi for the Indians and Malay. Their excuse is rthat we need Mandarin to do business with the chinese which is understanable as they (the chinese) have a very bad command of English but this is not enough reason to pull down other tongues.

As a government, they should show equal respect to all mother tongues; we are not China or a province of it that we need to master their national language which is not spoken in the whole of China!

Well brought-up scholarly Mandarins should not use words like “STUPID”
What would their ancestors who probably did not speak a word of mandarin think?

The whole CMIO construct irks me to no end.

Sometimes I refuse to identify my race on registration forms because I simply do not fall into a strict classification of ethnic heritage as seen by the bureaucracy.

The decision to promote Mandarin is a political one.

It was established that Hokkien was the language used during ancient China for a long time until the Chinese from the north gained political power and so Mandarin was thus established.

I think it is of no practical value to go back to “dialects” for the Chinese in Singapore.

If anyone wants to learn proper Hokien, he can go to Taiwan to study it or for Cantonese, he can try hong Kong.

He should be sacked on all counts as well.

Like why are we paying a minister to be sitting here talking cock? Wasting public funds? He shouldn’t have the myopic view of thinking that ‘bilingualism rules all’ , how are they going to communicate with the previous generation where the elderly only know how to speak their dialects?

Some of us have a different views from Deng Chao.

http://civicadvocator.net/hey-stupid-who-do-you-call-stupid/

Interestingly, Mr Chee addressed himself as the private sec of Lee Kuan Yew, and not Li Guanyao. “Chee Hong Tat” sounds suspiciously un-Mandarin too.

So instead of PM Lee Hsien Loon, SM Goh Chok Tong and DPM Wong Kan Seng, they should henceforth correctly be referred to as PM Li Xianlong, SM Wu Zhuodong and DPM Wang Gengcheng.

Surely it wouldn’t lead to loss of identity or confusion, no?

So much control!!

7/3/09

I am all for bring back the use of Singaporean Chinese Dialects in Singapore as these are the very foundation of Singapore Chinese and we as Singaporean Chinese must be very proud of our dialects which are also made up of our different cultural practises (Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese, Hakka, Hainan).

Let us take a good look at Mandarin since its implementation in Singapore and today, the colorful cultures of the Singaporean Chinese are very dull, sad and the old way to make them more colorful is to bring back the use of Dialects in Singapore and hence Singaporean Chinese cultures will be very colorful again. Look at China, less people are using Mandarin, so is Taiwan and let us be focus on English ie useage in our commercial world and among the Singaporean Chinese, let us start using our Dialects. I am 100% for use of Dialects in Singapore.

Let us not be like those Morons in Malaysia now especially in their capital KL ie more than 2000 protesting and putting pressures on the Govt to revert the teaching of Science & Mathematics in Bahasa Malaysia, now both are using English.

Regards
Andrew Chuah

7/3/09

This should read “the only way to make them more colorful” and “not the old way….” my typing error

Regards
Andrew Chuah

deng chao:

i think you can’t just say that because the chinese dialects are mutually intelligible, they should automatically qualify as languages. there is also the problem of sociopolitics – the china chinese have hence grouped all these dialects together under the banner of chinese to demonstrate unity.

personally whether a variety is a language or a dialect, is, to me, an arbitrary one. in the case of singapore, i would rather to focus be on examining the cultures espouses by these dialects and encouraging people to speak them, instead of slamming them and their speakers.

*i would rather THE focus be on examining the cultures espouses by these dialects and encouraging people to speak them, instead of slamming them and their speakers, or even fighting for them to be recognized as languages.

nowadays we need foreign talent to rebut stupid advisors.

my only form of communication with my beloved grandma, who came from China as an immigrant was the dialect Cantonese.

There’s always a reason that sounds good and a true reason. The reason to ease the load on language learning sounds good. But the true reason is a political one. Back in those days, in PAP there was the English-educated faction led by LKY and the Chinese-educated faction led by Lim Chin Siong and Lee Siew Cho. The latter had a wider reach to the electorate using Chinese and the main Chineses dialects. Only LKY (who is a Hakka) and not many other in his faction were anywhere near as fluent and were losing out on effective ground communication in the press and in rallies. The true reason was obvious and what followed was history . The loss of our heritage on political grounds is tragic.

Thank you very much, Deng Chao for your very helpful and enlightening article, which clarifies long-held misconceptions about languages.

The misguided race classification into CIMO and the misnomer “Mother Tongue”, are jarring issues too. E.g. “Indian” is in fact not a race, but denotes a citizen of India. Mother Tongue is a misnomer because it is defined by our Govt as the language of one’s FATHER. And I wonder if it is correct to call “Eurasian” a race.

The bilingual policy imposed on a good 2 generations now, has produced not a few citizens who “hate Chinese” (i.e. strongly disliked the compulsory learning of Mandarin in school). This is not surprising, given that our local “Chinese” population comprises Straits-born (Peranakans/Babas) of (very often) Malay-speaking mothers and descendants of peoples originally born in South China, whose mothers speak the denigrated dialects. (I’ve yet to meet a Chinese Singaporean whose mother’s “Mother Tongue” is actually Mandarin. )

Yet, Mandarin is defined as the Mother Tongue of a child whose father is of Chinese origin (even for a child whose father is a non-Chinese speaking Baba and his mother a non-Chinese). Under present policy, it is compulsory for every child to learn his deemed “Mother” Tongue.

The present system of race classification and the allocation of a language to such race groups, have never really made sense to me. Moreover, I’ve long wondered what purpose is being served by the policy of reinforcing our so-called differences in race and language (by dividing every citizen into the 4 square boxes). How does it build up our national identity?

Personally, I detest to be asked for my race. Should it not be sufficient to be known as “Singaporean”? It is only in Singapore that you will find forms asking one’s race, to which I will always state “Human”.

My only form of communication with my beloved grandma, who came from China as an immigrant was the dialect Cantonese.

I see no harm in people speaking dialects or mandarin for that matter. The more languages one can speak is always an advantage, never a liability.

A linguist is one who can speak in more than one language and if he or she is able to speak hokkien, teochew, hakka or cantonese, that will be fantastic.

Long ago, there were many old folks in Chinatown and they spoke dialects. It is very sad to see the old guard, the old folks diminishing in numbers in chinatown. The few still there either sell packets of tissue to eke out a living and if you speak mandarin to them, they do not understand. These folks are very happy to hear someone who is able to communicate with them in their forefathers’ language.

I dont think there are any adverse consequences to Singapore if we adopt dialects. It is our culture and our greatgrandparents, grandparents language of communication. Why take that away from them?

How can the young communicate with these elderly folk when one speaks dialect and the other speaks mandarin. How are our volunteer youths who visit the aged in old -aged homes interact with them if both are unable to understand each other’s language?

I think those of you people who are for other Chinese languages (“dialects”) probably belong to the older age group. But I think reality should prevail rather than being sentimental like Andrew Chuah.

Lee KY, I believe is more peranakan than Hakka, did he grow up speaking Hakka (Khek)?

7/3/09

Hi Philip Tang-Noted your posting *19, I am 48 going 49 and I am not sentimental.I standby what I have written and I have never use and speak Mandarin in Singapore as I firmly believe it is very irrelevant and only use and speak English as English is a world language for living,travelling and trade.

Regards
Andrew Chuah

..one common language for the Chinese in Singapore..certainly one of the great achievements of the present government.

7/3/09

Hi Mrthinktalk-noted your posting *21-what is the great achievement (we Singaporean Chinese culture are colorless and very dull since the implementation of Speak Mandarin Campaign and we all (Hokkien Teochew, Cantonese,Hakka, Khek,)must start speaking our Dialets again and hence our respective cultures can make a successful comeback in Singapore ie lively, vibrant and colorful, and hence making Singapore unique once again.

Regards
Andrew Chuah

It is a pity that we lose our heritage and lose our ancestral tongue. For example I almost cannot communicate with my grandpa at all, he only speaks in Henghwa. Times have changed, dialects no longer or will soon cease to have any economic value. The reality is we are a small country and we depend so much on our economy, do we really want to put more resources in to this heritage? Such heritage only belongs to the museum,s it really makes no sense in learning(re-learning) these dialects and reversing this old government policy.

However if you really value it, for those who knows the dialect take the time to communicate and teach them to your kids. We do not have to rely on the government to promote it if you really value it. However, I think most of us would just spend more time on teaching our kids Math and Science, things that really have an economic value in society. Ditto for the government.

Many would not know that MOE offers NTIL or Non Tamil Indian Languages to be taken by students. Meaning, Indians unlike the Chinese are not forced to study Tamil as a second language. Previouly many non Tamil indians chose to study Mandarin because it has economic value whereby Tamil is effectively useless in the business environment. Because of the MOE policy of learning one’s mother tongue, this group of non Tamil speaking indians were allowed to do Mandarin as their mother tongue was not offered. But not anymore, almost every non Tamil Indian language is offered now. Wonder what’s the purpose behind it.

Foolish to advocate the learning of dialects?

By Andy Liew Shiau Min

I refer to the letter in Straits Times Forum by Chee Hong Tat, Principal Private Secretary to the Minister Mentor, yesterday. In the letter Mr Chee made the assertion that, I quote, “It (Learning Dialects) interferes with the learning of Mandarin and English.”

He further made the claim that “It would be stupid for any Singapore agency or NTU to advocate the learning of dialects, which must be at the expense of English and Mandarin.”

But what has rendered Mr Chee’s letter weak in his claim is that throughout the entire letter, he made no mention of any academic studies, statistics, experiments, that could substantiate his claims that learning dialects does interfere with the learning of Mandarin and English.

Such belief actually has come from the Minister Mentor’s own personal experience alone.

http://luntan.zaobao.com/viewthread.php?tid=129647&page=1&extra=page%3D1#pid246260

I make it a point to teach my children my dialect, Hokkien. It is a link to my ancestors and no politician is going to tell me it is foolish to continue using my dialect. The more they try to shove it down my throat, the more I will throw up. Dialects are still used in China n SE Asia, although Mandrarn is also used extensively. But it does not mean I have to ditch the use of dialects entirely. Just like the “Stop At Two” policy, the effects of social engineering is only felt 20 – 30 yrs later, by then it is too late to reverse. Politicians cannot intrude yr life.

My take on this topic is that language and dialect are but mediums for the sole purpose of communication.
That being said and putting emotion aside, I believes humanity could benefit more from a richer common language, than a variety of colourful ones.

the perpetrator when one blindly follows his stupid idea.

When the leaders want your blind and stupid loyalty(support)

and You give unquestioningly,

You blame the leaders ?

Mr Deng Chao, Why So Serious..

I must be a genius going by what the MeiMei Lee’s Private Secretary thinks is not possible.

I have mastery of English, Mandarin, Hokkien, TeoChew, Cantonese and basic command of Malay (Kiri, Kanna, Balek Kampong!..,.haha) that is enough to direct a platoon of soliders.

It will be interesting to see how many languages you guys know..
COm’on .. list out what languages you are proficient in and what languages you have basic command of.

BE HONEST OK! :)

In the hospital, the usage of dialects are almost essential when the patient from an earlier generation, knows only primarily that dialect or cannot converse well in English or Mandarin. Doctors, nurses, social workers do still need to know how to speak these dialects to communicate effectively, and also to understand the needs of these patients in order to provide the best treatment to them.

If our generation loses the ability how to speak dialects, how are we suppose to communicate to the earlier one? Especially Singapore is facing a well known problem in an ageing population and more elderly would need extensive social and medical attention. The worst case scenario if we loses our ability to speak dialects we would need to employ “local speakers” from China to be the translator. Just imagine the cost ineffectiveness and “stupidity” in this instance.

Another government scholar.. please. Have we not seen enough of civil servants’ stupidity?

Let me see… English, Mandarin (both simplified and traditional for written), Japanese, Korean, Cantonese, Hokkien, TeoChew and a little bit of Thai and Vietnamese.

To add on to the article. Traditional Chinese, simplified Chinese, Hokkien and Cantonese are all written differently. Should they be classified as different languages or dialects of Mandarin?

From experience definitely easier to learn
mandarin without cross- crossing with
dialects Surprising mum now knows it by
exposure with thechildren This culture thing…I
think no difference no impact whether this or that..

Some Europeans like the dutch and swiss are fluent in 3 or more languages. and the languages are as diverse as french, german and english. what gives?

in any event Mr Chee Hong Tat’s chldren are probably only fluent in ONE: English. So much for being bilingual.

I think you guys have missed the point of the Chee Hong Tat. The basic premise of Chee is simple: most of us have limited capacity and resources to learn how to use a language properly. We do not have the luxury of learning several, hence we have to prioritise.

At the moment, English and Mandarin have the greatest currency. Hence it makes most practical sense to learn them first, before trying to learn others.

This point might have been lost because of Chee’s unnecessary harsh choice of words. Deng argues that Chee is wrong in the technicalities. This rebuttal appears to be talking past Chee whose concerns are entirely different. As for the heritage point, that’s an universal argument which can be raised in any debate for change. It is not overriding.

59er / jacobs – Great observations!

Why waste time with 2 languages then? English alone will do fine.

The Queen’s English perhaps? Wait a minute, American has more economic benefits…

I have always lament that my 2 sons cannot speak an iota of Teochew, which is my dialect. But are they really effectively bilingual in both English & Mandarin? The answer is “no”. Yes, they can speak both languages. But can they write and read Mandarin? The answer is again “no”. They can only converse and hold a conversation in Mandarin. Is Mr Chee Hong Tat claiming that because the government has discouraged the use of dialects for so long, its population is now effectively bilingual in both English & Mandarin? Are not the majority of the younger population like my 2 sons? And is he also claiming that the younger ones can now write effective and good English? Come on, stop deceiving yourself and Singaporeans.

Like many others who are in their late 40’s and older, I am effectively bilingual in English & Mandarin. In fact, I am not ashamed to say that I fare anytime better than my 2 sons in both written and oral English & Mandarin. I was brought up watching HK Cantonese serials, mix and play with Malays and Hokkien friends. I speak Malay, English, Mandarin, Cantonese, Hokkien and of course Teochew. Was I in anyway short-changed just because I learned dialects? The answer is an emphatic “no”! In fact, with only 2 languages to contend with nowadays, our present day school kids are faring not any better! It has ALL to do with the failings of the educational system than anything else. Those older will readily agree with me that in those days, we had ironically much better-trained teachers, teachers who are definitely more passionate in their work, with fire-in-their-belly, when compared to present-day teachers. At the end of the day, not only do our children learn less of other languages and dialects, they are no better where English & Mandarin are concerned. Lamentable state of affairs!!!

I don’t think anyone is asking for dialect to be taught in schools. What many want is just respect for the language/dialect that our forefathers (No LKY is not one of our fathers) used. Respect as in no unnecessary laws/regulations hindering the natural development and learning of it by individuals. If there is a demand for a Teochew radio stations, so be it. Let it develop naturally. If there is no demand then fine. But don’t pass a legislation against having dialect radio stations.

I believe Singaporeans, as in many many many other issues, are matured enough to realize that proficiency in the working language of English and Mandarin is very important and that any other dialect is a good to know casual speak kinda thing.

We Singaporeans are a practical bunch. Just because you allow dialect to be spoken and used in the media doesn’t mean that we will use it more than the money generating useful in business English language.

Don’t let them stop us from talking cock :D
Why do you think the Dictionary/TK website’s so popular?

The use of ’stupid’ by this Private Secretary is most uncalled for and smacks of ‘I am smarter than the rest’. Very annoying to have a civil servant appear so arrogant.

Firstly, I am offended by the word STUPID used by Chee, an adjective obviously sanctioned and most probably chosen by the Great Lee. The latter has always been infamous for calling people MAD, reckless, andnow stupid. Just because I hold a different view does not mean I am thinking stupidly! LKY has erred often -many glaring examples now – so he was stupid?

Secondly, both of them are hypocrites as they are still using dialect-based naming convention.

Thirdly, whenever we met people from the PRC, often they asked us where are we from. Of course, we are from Singapore, but that’s being facetious. What they wanted to know was our ancestry- which province our parents/grandparents came from, even the village! If we don’t know a thing about our dialect past, we feel so inferior as an ethnic Chinese.Saying you are a Singaporean is a conversation killer. When we could tell them more in details about our dialect roots, the relationship warmed up and trust was created. Mandarin is just a convenient bridge if neither party speaks the same dialects, but the mutual respect is there.

Fourthly, my wife and I spoke dialects with our parents/grandparents, mingled with neighbours in Malay, Hokkien, Teochew, Hakka, learn Mandarin and English in school, and spoke to each other and our friends in English. Lamentably, due to govt propaganda, we did not begin dialects with our children and we also did not jumpstart it, so now our next gen has lost the connection to their grandparents. Sure, the older folks are picking up Mandarin and using it to talk to them, but always over very superficial conversational subjects and never deep enough to be meaningful. I loved to hear the many idioms, often cited by them even in gossip, which in 4 characters spoke volumes! Altho the phonetics are different, the written words are the same. We could have had a much more proficient literary base in Chinese if we had mastered idioms in dialects, even spoken ones in dialects. Today, we are good but still not so good; and our children are worse, having lost any knowledge of dialects – thanks to our far-sighted MIW who want to label us stupid. What to do? It’s happened.

deng chao join politics and fight to be a mp.

help us change the law.

[...] and Mandarin being the lingua franca for the Singapore Chinese is also an emotive topic still. The Principal Private Secretary to MM Lee’s comments on the exclusive dominance of Mandarin over Hokkien, Teochew, Cantonese [...]

Dear #40 Alfred,

I agree with you totally. The younger generations are less talented than the older ones. The youngsters mostly end up speaking broken or ungrammatical English and a crude form of Mandarin; and zero dialects. The older people speaks better English and a more refined brand of Mandarin plus several dialects.

This suggests that Mr Chee Hong Tat’s “premise that most of us have limited capacity and resources to learn how to use a language properly” is a false one. Paradoxically, this false assumption had unfortunately led to policies producing poor language proficiency across the board over the last 2 generations. The poor education system also did not help. People do not realise that the less you learn, the capacity for learning also diminishes; and conversely, the more languages you learn, your ability to pick up and perfect new tongues increases.

i think to learn dialects will not affect english or mandarin.

nowadays 3 students got all As for 13 subjects.

so dialect they should be able to learn also.

no point to get many As if the root also do not know.

The young pps pretends to have no sense of history -power struggle – from the closing down of Nantah to one ‘ own mother tongue – crudely taken out without mercy. They pretend not to know the joy of one’s dialect mothertongue.
Do they know that 5000 nantah graduates meet yearly and mostly outside singapore ? Do they know why the name NTU was used not to long ago – guilty.

It is all about power struggle – dialects, mandarin, communists , etc the past is long gone by the pps’ insensitive and arrogant reply is also “supid’ ( pardon word please) in this election year

i always admire chinese malaysians’ language prowess, which is also famous world wide: they are multi-lingual. English, Mandarin, Malay and at least one or two dialects. While some Singaporeans may find their accent amusing, our own Mandarin accent are funny to other mandarin speakers as well. (ok that’s out of point)

I was so angry to read the bigoted and ill-informed letter on the forum. To make matter worse, he has the cheek to call people stupid? Im dumbfounded, really.

) mrthinktalk on March 7th, 2009 7.59 pm …..you said ‘one common language for the Chinese in Singapore..certainly one of the great achievements of the present government.’….firstly it is not something that the prezent government initiated but the government under LKY did and secondly, I do not see anyway we can see it it as a ‘Great Achievement’ because it just is not. If it indeed was an achievement then we would not be debating on the topic and not just a mojority but all would be speaking ands advocating the language.
If we want to see an achievement of the present government, then let them show us a clean and efficient taxi service in Singapore. It is currently a black-mark and a disgrace – a third-world service in a first world country. A Great Achievement of the present government is the meaningless and insincere smiles which are permanently pasted on their faces. I wish they were more human than robotic.

[...] Source: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/03/a-response-to-mm-lees-private-secretary-on-dialects/, retrieved 8 March 2009 Article by Deng Chao Mr Chee is wrong on all counts. [...]

8/3/09

Yesterday, more than 8,000 Malays and their Malays NGOs took to the streets in Kuala Lumpur ie marching from National Mosque to the Palace, demanding that the Malaysian Government switched he teaching of Science and Mathematics now in English, back to Bahasa Malaysia. This must never happen in our Modern Singapore ie one day, we wake up and we see a similar group demanding the Singapore Government to use 100% Mandarin in our schools. Let us pray this will never happen and English will be use as wide as possible and meanwhile, as local born Singaporeans, we make our first step converse with each other in our own Dialects which are far more colorful than Mandarin which has totally no cultures at all. We Singapore Chinese especially local born like us have very rich cultures and these cultures are tied up with our Dialects .

Regards
Andrew Chuah

Mr.Deng
I am proud of people like you around.
My Nkia Soon have hope leow.

It’s all wrapped up in this statement:

“… we would not have made economic progress, if we had not intervened on very personal matters – who your neighbour is, how you live, the noise you make, how you spit, or what language you use. We decide what is right. Never mind what the people think.”

- Lee Kuan Yew. http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Lee_Kuan_Yew

Does anybody know how many milions does it cost to make us mandarin-mothered?
Seems like almost every school going child I know is having Chinese tuition.
And it is not cheap. I call this our underground Ministry of Education—most of the tuition fees are probably not reported to tax authority—-creating a lucrative underground economy.

To andrew chua,

You seemed to have a very short attention span. We talking about Singapore and languages. Is it necessary to talk about our neighbours and how some of them want to run their life?
If I may borrow Mr Chee’s offensive phrase….you seem BODOH, oops not seem …but really a MORON.

Mr Chee take and sentiment, does not differ from his master – arrogant and damn outright arrogant. Doesnt Mr Chee realise – his master has on several occasions has to swallow his pride for making arrogant remarks and perhaps…show remorse…..privately.
I guess it gonna be another highly rated public servant bashing time. Just like the one that did an expensive French cooking course.

I think we have to take Andrew Chuas mention of our neighbours in context; he mentions them in relation to the trouble that they are having in relation to language opposition and hopes (very correctly) that we do not see the same here. I do not see any offence to our neighbours as he makes no judgement on them and his reference is perfectly related to our dialogue/discussion.

Everyone is going to die one day, sooner or later. Decades down the road, after MM LEE pass away, would he expect his grandchildren and descendants, come to his grave and speak to him in a language he does not understand?

My point is…please do make us victim of our own success.

Language and dialects are window are to our culture and our roots. I find it conflicting that the government are on one side visiting clans and museums to show support for the preservation of our heritage yet, and on the other side even use derogatory term to stop us from using the very same language to open windows and even doors to our culture and our heritage, our ancestors has passed it to us.

The MM Lee even once criticise the opposing party choice of words, and even called them gangster and hooligan. Now that MM Lee is using such strong words, is he any better off?

I think any Singaporean who share the same view as MM Lee must be the real stupid and foolish one. Elsewhere around the world, linguistic are cultural expert are fighting to preserve dying language. People like MM Lee, I think getting senile with age, is undoing everything. Refer to

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/mission/enduringvoices/ and watch the related video. I think we must give him a mental check-up and remove him from office.

Do remember the Mandarin we speaking, is also using Beijing dialect as a reference. During the time of the Tang Dynasty, Hokkien was a imperial and official language. And has been already a common language of the Chinese since ancient times. It was the Northern barbarian who invaded China and alter the Hokkien to a simpler and less elegant Mandarin. The Hokkien is such a beautiful language for it rich vocabulary and tonal values. Hokkien has more than 7000 words while Madarin has only 2000 plus. Hokkien can convey emotion and feeling that Mandarin cannot. Hokkien is a far more superior language than Mandarin. When the Northern barbarian invaded Tang China and established dynasty of foreign rules, our ancestor fled to Southern China and established the Fujian province, while other migrate to Taiwan and South-East Asia. It was for the hope that their descendants (us) would remember their hardship and bully by the Northerner, that they cling on to their original language and culture. And our ancestor has been so proud of it because the culture is still pure and more Chinese than the Northerner. A pity MM Lee is trying to undo everything. He is a greatest shame of the all Southern Han Chinese.

MM Lee know nothing about Chinese culture and linguistic history, and thus has no authority to comment on this subject. He should just simply, shut up!

By the way, MM Lee just mentioned in a ceremony for new immigrant:
‘Now you can participate in making Singapore a vibrant society that gives equal opportunities to all, regardless of race, LANGUAGE or religion and in housing, health services, education, jobs,’ he said. He stressed that the meritocratic system meant the country treats all citizens equally. And, in our national pledge: ‘We the citizen of Singapore…regardless of race, LANAUGAE or religion…’ Isn’t him contradicting himself, I think we should seriously charged him under the law for language discrimination and also discrimination toward the Southern Han Chinese in Singapore. Racism is a crime, then discrimination toward dialect groups and their languages must be a crime too.

In the show the ‘The Little Nyonya’, the Huang family was a successful one. However the matriarch was overcome with greed and the grandchild show so little respect for his ancestor. The grandchild, TianBao, being anglophile and English educated show little seriousness during the solemn ceremony of ancestor veneration. He even wrecked the ancestor tablet of Yueniang. Eventually he as sentence to death.

Has anyone forgotten the underlying meaning and teaching of this show: not to forget our roots, ancestor and heritage?

Bad karma would come the way of the Lee family too.

instead of disguising and packaging it as a threat to langauge learning.

Chee probably could be a professor of English if he concentrated on it by not learning or speaking any other language.

And he can be absolutely right about himself, but to impose his view on others, he is not qualified.

Are You People not beating the Dog to show contempts for its’ Master ?

From quote in #55, Lee KY is like the rooster who thinks his crowing is responsible for the SUN rising. So without LKY, he claims, your sisters and mothers would be working as maids in a foreign country.

The fact is that with LKY, Singapore is now behind Hong Kong and Taiwan.

What drove Singapore before the melt-down was the influx of 2 million foreign workers (95% of them unskilled) This policy was to push up the GDP figures which is linked to the key perfomance index (KPI) of Singapore ministers.

Singapore’s GDP figures are not based on manufacturing or the quality services offered but the cheap labour and the construction of buildings which we can see has an over abundance.

The PAP should reinvent itself without the Lee family playing a prominent role.

Mr. MM Private sec may be an intellectual giant (must be a scholar) but in terms of EQ, smaller in stature compared to some primitive African pygmy. His logic is flawed and smacks of elitism and exclusivism… that’s will be the best combative response to him as an educated person. But, I am compelled to tell him in person, go fug himself and come down from his ivory tower and see that dialects remain, the common working languages among common singaporeans in everyday life..KNN him

Article by Deng Chao is excellent. It goes to show how narrow and shallow the view of Mr. Chee Hong Tat, Principal Private Secretary to the Minister Mentor. I was from the generation of dialect speaking Singaporeans and I must say that thanks to my parents’ insistence on dialect speaking at home, I was able to inherit from them invaluable human and cultural values hwich were taught to me largely by my parents telling me stories in my dialect. I was educated in English school and had I not have the ability of speaking dialect then, I would have lost all these good traditional values. These days, I lamented how much we have lost in terms of heritage (both culturally and morally) values because dialect speaking was discouraged and marginalised. The older generation who had limited Mandarin speaking capability cannot therfore communicate effectively with the younger generation who also have limited mandarin / chinese linguistic skill, hence losing the transmission of precious traditional values. This is sad due to policies that were politcally ‘correct’ but socially wrong for a generation.

I think the secretary was told to send in the letter which sounds to be in the style and tone of his boss. No choice otherwise the poor guy will be charged with insubordination and lose his job. In fact it is this policy on doing away with dialect that is stupid. Just like the “STOP AT 2″ and “SPORTS FOR ALL” policies of the old man which he is always defensive on.

#40…. Alfred, you hit the bull eyes….fully agree with you..

8/3/09

My reply to Guy_Plain’s posting *58 is this can happen in our Modern Singapore and nearly happend had Nanyang University did not close down (all the Chinese educated-Mandarin speaking) and let us pray it will never happen here. Tell me, how many Singaporeans who are fluent in Mandarin, go to China to do business (the Mandarin speaking world is a very small compared to the English speaking world). I standby what I have written and I am not seeking cheap attention.

I thank Myke Purba as he is able to see what I see and this is very real (we already have the Islamic exteremists threat and early this week we read in the newspaper a Singaporean Malay on trial in Indonesia, a member of JI and tried to bomb Singapore). I sense the Mandarin speaking in Singapore is a sizeable force even after the closure of Nanyang University home of those Chinese educated-Mandarin speaking, and many are still “Die Hard”.

My stand as a Singapore born Hokkein is we continue to use and for my case, Hokkien with fellow Singapore Hokkiens, Cantonese with fellow Singapore Cantoneses and Teochew with fellow Singapore Hokkiens, and bring back the good old days where we Singapore Chinese have very colorful cultures and traditions (all these are tied to our dialects and identieis as Hokkein, Teochew, Hakka, Cantonese).

Regards
Andrew Chuah

Well said, Deng Chao!! As usual, our dear MM will try to justify past policies, even when they are wrong and misguided. Destroying our past in name of economic progress and unity of the country, no matter how foolish it seems.

#61
Obviously, that’s the case here :(
Taken out of context and lacking coherence, but it does reflect the anger on ground against the govt.

To Myke Purba

Pls see #12 abt Andrew’s bashing of our neighbour.
What context are you referring to …

Andrew as mentioned earlier, you have a short attention span. We are commenting on Singapore and language and to some extent the manner which Mr Chee explained his policy.

By all means comment/highlight on this topic but neighbour bashing and now…extremism…..how are these related to our main topic?

Such a waste of resource….from myopic Singaporeans…who digest wholesomely from mainstream media…..

one becomes dark(ignorant/devilish/evil).

Birds of the same feathers flock together.

Does anyone expects satan to come in white ?

Yes, Satan does come in white.
Also not all MIB are Satan.

it isn’t even only a heritage issue – it is a practical issue. and it is not limited to hk and taiwan… when you are overseas e.g. in US and people know you are chinese, they speak to you in cantonese first. always – and many of those immigrants are not comfortable with mandarin.

and if you go to a dim sum establishment in washington not speaking cantonese, you will just be treated as ang mohs and be given english menus.

but well if you are proud of that (i am sure some singaporeans are), then i don’t want to talk to you.

i advocate the learning of dialects (or ‘regional languages’). i am proud of being able to use cantonese fluently. and i am going to learn to use hokkien fluently some time. therefore, according to the govt, i am foolish.

using the word stupid smack of vocabulary coming out from a Neanderthal.

I am a Hakka and proud to be one. Sadly, for my generation, only my sister and I speak the language. Four of my first cousins only know “eat rice” and “pass urine” in Hakka. A sad truth.

One can be rich and famous, one can be bi-lingual, one can be a secretary to a important person, but one can never loses it’s roots. If that is the case, what is the difference between human and a robot?

I am trying my best to teach my little girl to speak Hakka. She will be in a elite group of Sporean to be able to speak Hakka in 2050……

and speak using your natural tongue.

Nature has given every living species a natural distinct voice and the different races of the humankind are endowed with different languages. Be proud of your natural language first and foremost, learn other languages if one has the interest and ability.

A persons’ natural language is part of his/her nature which makes the person distinctive from other races, it also denotes the historical origin of the person and the culture associated to it.

Let’s not play politics with languages, anyone who wishes to uproot his/her heritage should be free to do so, BUT no one should upset or worse assasinate anothers’ culture which includes their natural ancestral(natural) languages.

LKY used to ridicule and laugh at Tun Tan Siew Sin. I think he shld slap his own face now. In the 50’s, he cameback from Cambridge all gungho with the Fabian Society, anglophone habits and Labour ideals, trying to build a power base for his shaky PAP. And what did he find? He found that he ran smack into what he called in his Memoirs an underground labour union network “teeming with tumult, dynamism and passion” led by leaders like Chin Siong and Swee Suan and how late he was in this game of labour union politics. He was a political infant cf. to these people. So little that he understood them, and a tumultous China. He needed them only for his political support and rode to power on their backs then discarded and destroyed them. Driven by an obsessive self-righteousness, and believing only he himself was right, he mowed down everybody who got into his way. same thing he did with Nantah, Chinese education and destroying culture through dialect elimination. It’s time we stopped him! He was wrong with his Stop at Two policy, his Grad Mum policy, his anti-Casino stand, his GIC investments and the Chinese language. What a total mess!

This is a brilliant commentary on the subject.

Deng Chao has correctly pointed out the distinction between regional languages and dialects. It is the same with Indian languages. There are 15 to 18 major languages in India and some 325 dialects (see http://indiansaga.com/languages/index.html), dialects being regional variations of one of the major languages (much as Bahasa Melayu differs from Bahasa Indonesia).

The Singapore government has used and continues to use the word ‘dialect’ incorrectly.

In any case, like many other policies, the language teaching policy here is in need of an overhaul. The first generation imperatives of sending Singaporeans on crash courses in English and Mandarin are over.

Children are natural language learners and have no difficulty mastering three or more languages, at least at a spoken level. There is no reason why our young should not be able to opt to learn Japanese, French or Russian should they wish to.

Policymakers here would do well to note that most Europeans are trilingual, speaking their mother tongue, English and at least one other European language (for example, the Swiss speak German, French and English).

It is time to move this discussion out of the tired old box.

It is ironic Deng Chao’s treatise, instead of proving Mr Chee, wrong, adds to the cogency and urgency of sacrificing dialects, or in Deng’s assertion, other Chinese languages, in favour of focusing on Mandarin.

I think we have to accept that the average brain has a limited capacity to handle a few languages well. Only those who are linguistically gifted can converse and communicate well in several languages.

By coming up with 1,147 word treatise on why Chinese dialects should be considered languages in their own right, Deng is in fact endorsing the main reason for the government’s abandonment of Chinese dialects in the first place. To quote:

/// There are linguistically gifted individuals who can handle multiple languages, but Singapore’s experience over 50 years of implementing the bilingual education policy has shown that most people find it extremely difficult to cope with two languages when they are as diverse as English and Mandarin. ///

Yes, I agree there are advantages to knowing dialects, especially when dealing with your opposite number in trade negotiations and social functions – there is much more intimacy and connection. This has been recognised. However, to many students, it is a “either or” situation – that is they can only cope with Mandarin or dialect plus the English language. As it is, many are still struggling with Mandarin.

So Deng, your long piece on treating dialects as languages actually meant the government was right – if coping with 2 languages is already a problem with most students, why burdened them with 3 or 4 or 5 languages?

I am glad that my Hakka speaking parents taught me Hakka when i was a boy.. I am 26 years old this year, and most of my Hakka friends can’t speak their own dialect.

I feel it’s a culture lost, without that, i feel we don’t have roots and we lost something permanent to “hold us” down in this culture.

It doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t play an active role to promote our cultures, even though Government don’t support.. i am thinking of joining Hakka Clan now.
Don’t forget our roots..

Why are we even going at each other over this?

I understand Hokkien but can’t really speak it well. I’m diverse in Mandarin and English, which I’m happy to say I’m quite proficient in communicating either ways.

The knowledge of Hokkien had enabled me to communicate well in Taiwan, although their “Tai2 Yu3″ (Homeland language) Is still a little different from ours.

I can understand what many Chinese Nationals says, be it dialect or not.

I can also understand a little of Malay, but only use it when the need arise.

I can also speak and write japanese…which also helps alot in communicating online with them.

Bottom line is. We should just all learn what we each learn best. The Education system for languages till now has done well for most of the people. Even though they may be bad at the languages, but the basic need of understanding and communicating has been passed down to the younger ones. I probably fared better due to interest in literature at both ends.

So why are they even mentioning languages out of nowhere? Dialects will be there whether we like it or not. Learning them will depend on personal interest and gains. So why bother when there’s nothing really wrong at all? The elites really shouldn’t be bothered with stuffs where there’s no need to touch on.

I feel very sad that he choose to use words such as.. stupid..and..foolish.. in his reply. But i guess, these are typical words use by the people in authority to demolish views put up by members of the public. Surely there are more gracious words to use.. such as .. it will not be in the best interest of Singapore ..etc instead of saying that the views are stupid and foolish. How to become a gracious society when you have people at the top calling people .. stupid and foolish?

My mother tongue is Hokkien. In Hokkien, “Chee Hong ” means “cunt-crazy”.

Remember the professor from China who we brought in to look at how the teaching of Chinese in schools here could be improved? He said we were doing it the wrong way. In China, schoolkids learn Mandarin (ie, the verbal form) in the first few years of school. Only after that are they taught — and expected to be competent in — Chinese, the written form. He left Singapore after a few years, apparently after his recommendations were rejected by our ‘we know what’s best’ mandarins in the Ministry of Education and the rest of the ‘civil service’.

all these issues being thrown out by the Leaderships and Medias are to divert attentions away from the livelihood problems and difficulties generated by the policies implemented over the last twenty years.

Livelihood affects almost everybody now and put most into troubles with their survivals. All kinds of smokes will be created to diffuse and prevent the build up of frustrations on a common affliction which may likely prove dangerous and even fatal. However, if the situation gets worse, the tactics may not work and the consequences beyond their controls.

Let us hope that our Leaders will sincerely work for solutions and create less difficulties for the people as they did the last one decade or two. The Leadership must also be awared that Singaporeans today are very pressured and that they are hitting the limits of their tolerances as proven by people who resorted to violences to show their frustrations.

Guy Plain, I will proceed to make another attempt to make a reply but do not wish to make it another side-line debate here. However, feel free to make a reply but with all due apologies, I will not go further to address the matter – no offence.

When I ventured to offer my bit at #58, I was responding to your #57 which came after #53. I have since gone through #12 and notice that Andrew had indeed called them ‘Morons’ which in my unqualified legal understanding I would classify as name-calling and not bashing. However, if indeed it is or can be classified as ‘bashing’ I feel it would be in our own interest as an on;line community to alert the member of the wrong and request that he/she not resort to it in future as it goes against social decorum..

We need desperate change in our society and who knows there is someone out there amongst us who is strong enough to be our next Prime Minister and bring about change that we not only believe in but that which we can all see in our life times (especially old senior citizens like me.

LKY, a mortal and a strong one at that, has ruled Singapore well. He has made his share of mistakes but he has brought us to a level of International respect and recognition that is envied by m,any an older and more established nations. But I also think that we have to move on and away from him and his line of thought, while we draw from it from time to time and when it shows possible relevance.. The new Singapore is in a new and challenging position and we have to move Out-of-the-Box with new and more challenging ways without the risks that the present government is/has been very careless to undertake.

Let us stay united as one; let us abstain from hitting out at our own community; let us stay away from bashing our own when we, rightly, do not want others to be bashed.

The PAP dominance has to be brought to an end; the sooner the better. We need a New Rooster to crow’ to look at ‘our New’ challenges and situations in New ways. We do not need a dynasty……..we desperately need a New Singaporean Obama whatever his Colour.

Contrary to LKY’s belief, we are ready for any Singaporean Rooster of any colour, yellow, white, black or blue!.

MM is NOT 100% Chinese. Oh better keep it real quiet otherwise the China government might can wind of it & there goes all our business contracts! Hush!

In fact MM is a Pernankan of half-Malay half-Chinese blood, his late mama wrote the famous Pernankan cookbook available at bookshops. In fact MM proper racial profile is that of sa Baba for male and for females is a Bibik, his wife Madam Kwa is a Bibik. Which makes their descendants including the PM & his children Pernankans. Nothing they do can ever change the fact that’s their historical legacy & ancestry!!!!

Why should a Pernankan dictate what ordinary Sporeans of mainly Southern China descent can or cannot learn and speak when the heart is willing & the mind is open to acquiring new knowledge that opens the windows to a very rich language diversity of Hokkien or Minnan (Minnan is the proper term for Hokkien for some reasons our forefathers of Hokkien descent have chosen to identify themselves as originating from a province rather than the county level), Teochew, Cantonese, Hainanese & Hakka.

Yes a language as agreed with all the points referred to in the article above. Good job on refining the points on why Southern Chinese dialects should NOT be termed as dialects but as languages. Every proverb in each Southern Chinese dialect is so unique that it just cannot be translated into Mandarin becos it will lose its essence.

I am proud of my Minnan heritage aka Hokkien. It is a beautiful language and I will defend it if anyone should say that its so low class. To those who use it to spout Minnan profanities, may I remind you that you are only demeaning your heritage should you do it in public that is if you are Minnan. If you are NOT Minnan, do NOT use MY dialect in such a way to denigrate it!

Minnan & all Southern Chinese dialects have a longer historical & literary legacy than Mandarin. Right from when the ancient capital was in Xian, southern Chinese dialects prevailed. During Tang Dynasty, Mandarin did NOT exist yet. Only the Southern Chinese dialects prevailed. Some contend that the dominant Tang Dynasty lingua franca was Minnan aka Hokkien, some say its Cantonese & some says its Hokchew aka Foochow. But whatever it is, its NOT Mandarin for sure.

In fact at one point, Sun Yat Sen wanted to push forward Cantonese as the lingua franca of China but was shouted down by the Northerners. That is a fact which can be found in history books.

My advice is to teach the kids your ancestry dialect so that they know where they come from, that in itself is a very powerful legacy that will put you in good stead with professional business contacts in China. In big cities like Shanghai, you can meet those Minnan speaking China folks from southern Fujian in your business contacts & you will be amazed how chummy they get when they know that they share a common ancestry with you. Same with the Taiwanese folks based in Shanghai where the majority are descended from Minnan.

I hope a stupid and unsound mind man comes forward and gives a slap on this rootless balls carrier Chee’s cheeks for insulting all dialect speaking s’pooreans

I’m a baby boomer growing up in an era when we studied English and Mandarin in school but spoke Hokkien, Cantonese and English during play time. As I grew older, I picked up a bit of Malay through interactions with colleagues and acquaintances and eventually Teochew from my wife.

In my work, I had to communicate in English with oversea counterparts in U.S, Australia, South Asia and South-East Asia. When travelling to these countries, I am able to communicate with the locals in U.S, Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, Malaysia and Indonesia with the languages and dialects that I learned to speak.

Boy, have I been STUPID : (

#40, Alfred,

i agree with you totally. hey we are of same buddy, maybe same kampong man..:) keep it up the spirit!

i pity the younger one including my childrens. i could only see no other problems except coming from the education system.

It is just a catching up game to learn one’s mother tongue dialect – it is never too late however old you are; it is never stupid to learn and recover your mother tongue and experience your own linguistic roots.

Take it as a challenge – my mother lost me to be a banana when she sent me to an English primary school and it took me years working in UK, Canada & Australia to regain the cultural ballast underpinned by my mother tongue.
Never let others or yourself to belittle yourself if you cannot speak your mother tongue. Pick up the pace to learn, and you will see how colourful, rich and deep, mother tongue dialect can be.

I think people are upset by the use of the word “stupid”.
Basically most agree that the decision to adopt Mandarin and not to promote dialects..taken 25 years ago i think..is a correct decision. It is a great achievement of the Governement and to be able to implement this policy smoothly. I think countries like Hongkong, Taiwan and the whole of China are wishing they could have one common language much earlier and not so many dialects…

To mrthinktalk on March 9th, 2009 4.16 pm

Who are u to speak on our behalf? If you want to be a parrot just go straight to PAP to regurgitate what they just said.

In case you are so damn stupid Mr think talk, re-read the 80 plus comment above again!

To 85#,

Some of us Peranakans may not speak a single word of decent Mandarin, but we sure are respectful of the part of China which the Chinese part of our ancestry come from. Please do not lump us in with your criticism in such an unfair manner.

In fact, truth be told, we Peranakans have always been more open to cultural adaptation and learning new languages. My late grandparents and my older relatives do speak a decent level of Bahasa as well.

One might also ask why we have neglected our national language as well, to the extent that the youth today have no inkling what the words of our National Anthem mean at all.. A shame really.

I’m proud of my Hokkien language ability, which when asked at home or abroad, is my mother tongue. My Mandarin is passable, but yes, I am effectively bilingual in English and Hokkien. Those are the languages of my youth.

anony – I don’t think you have to shout mrthinktalk down just because he has a different view point from you and you disagree with him. Let’s keep this civil.

Like you, I am proud of my Hokkien heritage and was very annoyed when they started to Hanyinpinnized everything unthinkingly. Can you imagine, a hawker stall’s name in Newton Circus hawker centre had its name translated from Newton Beef Noodle to its Mandarin equivalent, and when translated back, became Niu Dun.

Like you, I am also saddened that my children cannot speak Hokkien, and came running to me that their grand-dad was speaking to them in a foreign language! However, I will not be forcing them to learn their mother tongue because I know that they have enough on their plate learning English and Mandarin, plus the other subjects.

As I said earlier, Deng Chao’s long-winded propounding of his thesis that the so-called “dialects” are languages in fact is a back-handed acknowledgement that the government’s decision to phase out dialects was a correct one. I also think dialects are useful to network with our “ching-langs” in other countries, but this option is best left to the individuals. We can teach our kids dialect if we think it is important enough to make a difference in their lives.

Anony, just a request – don’t resort to ad hominen attacks just because you disagree with others’ views.

Peace.

I am regret to read this article form singaporean civil servant. I think this is a sensitive issue and how dare he brought it out in that manner in public without caring the feeling of the heartlander?

I’m half Hokkien, half Cantonese. I live in a English+Mandarin environment but I find it sad that I’m unable to speak much of my dialects, this makes it hard for me communicate with my grandparents. Therefore I think dialects should be preserved. The government is wrong to denounce dialects.

“I think countries like Hongkong, Taiwan and the whole of China are wishing they could have one common language much earlier and not so many dialects…”

Sure or not ??? maybe china lah. not hongkong (if they are really left on their own) & taiwan which have the habit of screwing their ruling elites if they do not play ball and not the other way round.

ask yourself leh, why there is a hkong and taiwan and red dot in the first place lah. you think just snap your fingers, everyone can hold hands and kiss one another meh. so many countries and so many examples of past baggages and you are still dreaming. maybe your dream will come true if we have a modern day Qin Shi Huang which I think a lot of present day hua-ren will have no mood for such character.

#90, thank you, you point is well made. Perhaps words like “silly” & then “stupid” should be used only behind closed doors, and not uttered in public in answers to Q & A forum or published in the presses in reply.

#95,

Singapore is no Chinese Republic. Don’t be mistaken.

9/3/09

Hi MykePurba-I noted your posting *84. Let us pray God will send someone who is above average as our next Prime Minister and can bring changes to our Modern Singapore and bring back to colorful days of Singaporean Chinese ie their various dialects which are tied with their cultural and traditions, unlike now Mandarin speaking has made Singpore Chinese colorless since the Speak Mandarin campaign (I am not against it but I firmly believe that the Mandarin speaking world is very small compared to the English speaking world and how many Singapore Chinese can actually go beyond Singapore ie to China-honestly less than 5% and what we have seen to date is the influx of Mainland Chinese who are here and they are not the Blue Chips or even Quality Chips, all Third and Second Liners, and my only fear is the resurgence of a sizeable numbers of Mandarin speaking in Singapore especially those who still have the strong Nantah Spirit (these are the Chinese educated-Mandarin speaking) and we can never tell, they will be like those in Malay who protested last Saturday (more than 8,000 of them and the Malaysian Police has to fire tear gases to disperse them).I don’t think I am wrong in calling them Morons as they faied to put their nation Malaysia above everything else and what they have done is so called for their Race & Religion, and conversely, we Singaporeans must not emulate them and must always put our Modern Singapore above everything and our Modern Singapore is successful is because of English being the official language in Government, Business and Trade-Domestic and International, and not Mandarin.

Regards
Andrew Chuah

#78) T

Perhaps the average number of languages for a limited brain capacity person like you is 2.

For the free mind, number is not a limit.

Frankly, to brand others, even NTU, as stupid if they advocate the learning of dialects is what shocks most people. The view that dialects interfere with the learning of Mandarin or English is highly debatable. In my view, it’s always an asset to learn more things whatever you call them. One can learn to be more tactful and courteous even when you vehemently disagree.

What will the PPS say to these elderly people?

Students learn dialect to communicate with elderly

Julie Lam, Director of TOUCH Seniors Activity Centre:

“Through this learn-a-dialect session, our elderly clients are tutoring the students in dialect for the first time and we hope that it can bridge the communication gap and strengthen inter-generation bonding.”

Sad to know someone literate saying its foolish to advocates the learning of dialects.
I believe when we speak our own mother tongue or dialect,it will some how make us JIN CHOR (know our ancestor).To me ,it will also somehow make us having feeling and as such less arrogant.
Being bilingual is not good enough.We should be multilingual.Dialect itself is also regional language and if we are not capable of being multilingual,should be humble and not discourage others from being so,especially by calling them foolish.
My ability of speaking English and Mandarin may not necessary be useful.I had ever secure Taiwanese contract simply because of my ability to converse with them in Taigu(Taiwanese Hokkien) and Korean project by speaking some simple Korean.
Speaking the same dialects or languages will built up a more closer tie,got Kamcheng one.So never dicourage others,especially with arrogant remark.

My parents were born in the 50s and they were Cantonese but commendably multilingual. My father never learnt Chinese (until now, for work) because he was English-educated in Malaysia so he learnt Malay as well. My mother can converse in Mandarin, English, Hokkien and Cantonese. From what I’ve heard, Hokkien was the main language used in school in Singapore of that time.

Disappointing to say, now, the only Hokkien I know are the ‘unmentionables’ and the sparse Cantonese I know, I picked up from HK serials. I think it might be a matter of exposure and having barely been exposed to Mandarin at a young age, I didn’t really have the interest to learn what seemed ‘foreign’ at the time. Even in secondary school, I never felt Mandarin was my ‘Mother Tongue’. I always rejected that term. However after how many years of education, I feel ashamed that despite achieving good proficiency in English, I am incompetent in reading and comprehending a single newspaper article in Chinese.

So much for bilingualism. :/

These policy makers make such sweeping statements so easily and then come to contradict them again when talking about things like heritage.

101)
is this programme still on?it is more good if the elderly are taugh
mandarin instead From my experience my 75 yr old mum now can
talk to children in mandarin She learnt it simply by exposure!

“97) CelluloidReality on March 9th, 2009 9.00 pm #95,
Singapore is no Chinese Republic. Don’t be mistaken.”

Who does not know that. But whether you like it or not, there is always some degree of tension / emotion (either openly or not) when this kind of issue is involved.

If he had substituted “stupid” with “unwise” a less provocative connotation, I believe the reaction will be very much different. In his feedback, he did acknowledge that one become fluent in the use of a particular language if it is being spoken frequently with the right environment. Quote: “…then Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew also stopped making speeches in Hokkien, which he had become fluent in after frequent use since 1961.” Well, this is a distinct difference between a crafted bureaucrat and a secretariat. It is also clear that he is not a linguist so why get so worked up with a person who cannot multi-task other than his unpolished choice of word? This is based on his and only his perspective: “To keep a language alive, it has to be used regularly. Using one language more frequently means less time for other languages. Hence, the more languages a person learns, the greater the difficulties of retaining them at a high level of fluency. “

My take on this issue is that no one is asking for the education system to have academic subjects be taught in either of these mentioned languages (besides the de facto primary languages of English and Mandarin). I think the call is more for to preserve its heritage by allowing certain broadcasting to be aired using these languages. If this suggestion is being support, I think this will truly reflects the diversity of Singaporeans. A true melting pot with diverse of ethnicities in a modern metropolis.

To be fair, from a commercial perspective without a doubt, English and Mandarin will be the major driving languages in today’s globalized economies. However, social interaction between human beings of different languages is an art and requires a certain understanding of the basic conversational skills and the language to ensure less miss-communications or miss-understanding. From a heritage preservation point of view, we have a moral responsibility to ensure the continual existence of our ancestry lingual skill. It is indeed parts and parcel of a culture. Take any of the examples and it is not hard for people to see why it is important to remind oneself of its ancestral origin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teochew#History , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese

Country as huge as China with 56 ethnic groups has adopted Mandarin as their official language and are now beginning to introduce the English Language as a secondary medium for communication to integrate with the rest of the world who does not speaks Mandarin. Apart from this effort, the Chinese Government on the other hand does not discourage the ethnic groups in preserving their cultural heritage.

I think if one is determined to preserve its lingo heritage, we can find ways to do it even without the official support. Is it a crime to speak Cantonese (Yueyu 或 Guangtong), hokkien (Fujian), teochew (Chaozhou) or any other spoken languages? If one is determined to forge forward, why not proactively initiate this movement by speaking with your friends (new and old), relatives, colleagues or even your customers (new and old) rather than having to wait for the cow to come home.

To a few Guys posting earlier on please stop thinking whether English or Mandarin is better. We stick with English to do business with our neighbors, we’ll learn it one way or the other. We learn Mandarin and other mother tongues for our own good. We freaking learn Dialects and other Languages for our own interests. So stop thinking that a certain language is BETTER because there is NO POINT!

And yea about communicating with the elderly, I’d say it’s best done both ways. Elderly can learn mandarin while the young ones learn dialects at the same time. It’s much better and keeps traditions, I’ve got Indian friends who speaks Chinese and a Chinese friend who replies to them in Tamil. It was most entertaining when a drunk thought he was hallucinating when he heard them. :D

MM Lee’s private secretary’s article “Foolish to advocate the learning of dialects” which essentially defends the bilingual policy as advocated by the MM, even at the expense of the dialects. Well, the bilingual policy could be his most long lasting legacy.

Much has been said about the shaky evidence on the assertions are being based upon and the “stupid” comment betraying deep sense of bigotry.

I believe there’s a much more wider message going across to the academia, that of a censuring one. Whenever any academia research or findings that contradicts sharply against official policy or establishment’s sentiments, we can almost find a rebuke to them.

Another example which I can’t remember the details is an economic analysis by a group of NTU professors a few years back showing unemployment of Singaporeans very unfavourably.

Any response from the academia is likely to be muted, even when the findings are true, to the extent of their research.

This episode has to be further examined in the context of governmental source of university funding and the lack of a Freedom of Official Info Act.

without the dialect speaking majority, got today meh?
nowadays these old folks are being engaged in weekly line dancing and free oldies movie . they are so happy wor.

LKY private sec must be with him for too long, hence being influenced by LKY arroganace and ignorance. Words like ‘foolish’ is to tarnish someone image, and should not be used in national paper.

Ignorance of one’s heritage is stupid.

All I can say is, I really feel sad to not be able to converse with my parents in their dialect.
Looking at my aging father, all he wish for now is to speak in his dialect so that he can feel close to his origins. He doesn’t care about Mandarin or English or what it does for the world. He wants to hear his dialect being conversed back to him but I can’t…. If I could turn back the time, I would really have tried my best conversing in my dialect as much and often as I could have…
My dialect in my family will die with me and my siblings.
Rest in peace, Dialect my friend.
And oh…. Stupid is such a wrong word to use for someone in that position. I would have expected more class from whiter than white.

10) Ah Lian on March 7th, 2009 4.20 pm Interestingly, Mr Chee addressed himself as the private sec of Lee Kuan Yew, and not Li Guanyao. “Chee Hong Tat” sounds suspiciously un-Mandarin too.

If Chee Hong Tat is not Hakka, then I’m Eskimo!
It seems all those within MM Lee’s inner circle of assistants are Hakka!
Where’s Madam Yong Yoon Ying? Triple Y?

http://www.ahrchk.net/ahrc-in-news/mainfile.php/2004ahrcinnews/174/

19) Jeannette on March 7th, 2009 6.20 pm
Personally, I detest to be asked for my race. Should it not be sufficient to be known as “Singaporean”? It is only in Singapore that you will find forms asking one’s race, to which I will always state “Human”.

Too bad! At the end of the day, you still have to adhere to Lee’s law and dutifully blanco it and put down whatever classification they deemed correct!

I may be Hakka by paternity. But my mother tongue is Cantonese through and through by maternal descent and practice. And I love it with all my heart.
I can speak decent Mandarin but feel that it’s importance now and in the future is such overhyped hogwash. Long Live Cantonese!
My experiences in my dealings with the Japanese and Koreans had taught me that they will react more positively if you communicate with them through English if they can articulate it just as well. To them it’s a slight and a rude presumption if you don’t at least try to feel out their preference.
It’s the same with the present generation of PRC nationals as well, many of whom speak idiomatic American English with it’s corresponding accent.

MM lee is critically wrong in this regard!

Both my parents are Cantonese. My daughter, being taken care by my mother from young, is able to communicate decent Cantonese. When she was in nursery school, she even told the teacher that her mother tongue was English. That was because we communicated in English. However, that doesn’t mean her Mandarin suffered. She had got good grades in both languages. Now she fully utilised all that she had learned in her current job which requires her to travel to China, Hongkong and other countries. Therefore, to be able to communicate with one another is a beautiful thing. Even speaking to someone using sign language is beautiful. So it is not “stupid” to learning any mode of communication.

FYI, there are more chinese and English discussion at Reach:

http://app.reach.gov.sg/reach/YourSay/YourDiscussionCorner/tabid/117/ptid/414/page/1/totrecs/82/threadid/1857/forumtype/posts/Default.aspx

Thanks Jane 118 for the REACH link
Just went there. Apparently TOC seem to have more postings and more active.
Is it because the TOC format is more user-friendly.. a technical thing or something else i think.

I speak both English and Mandarin. Even though English is 1st language, to me my Mandarin then is my 1st language. I’m Chinese, not angmoh. Btw I like to sing cantonese songs.

so far 120 comments more than 4000views for this topic is
this a record? I wonder u get this much if the word stupid is not used
maybe not One can learn lessons from this!

fully agreed with #63…excellent use of adjective
and also #85
i have a hypothesis why dialect might be ban by the S’pore govern
coz when they hear or Hokkien profanities…their balls will shrink…and their boobs will sag..and they tongue twisted

to those on the side of the lobby advocating the speaking of dialect…please don use vulgarity in dialect…and stop your children and other from using dialect this way…only when we speak it the standard of the Tang Dynasty scholar and imperial way…can our dialect gain recognition..

To 119) mrthinktallk ，

Reach is a Web of Govt. The speed is still very slow now.
I think these are the two main reasons of not so active as compare to TOC.
Here, very fast and more interaction.
Also, the news reported and respond are very fast.
Lastly, I think most of the people here dare to speak their mind.

Chee Hong Tat’s remarks have strongly irked the Hokkien Association, Teochew Association, Hainanese, Haka and many other clans and association in Singapore. PAP is going to lost most of the votes with such insensitive remarks as to call all dialect speakers STUPID!! Does PAP know why they always lost their votes in Hougang, because Low Thia Kiang speaks very good Teochew to connect well with people in Hougang and garner rapport from the residents there.

Right on! I have always taken pride in speaking singlish, cantonese, hokkien and teochew with a little malay in-between and a couple of tamil words. hey, mandrain is not my mother tongue and i dun care for it. in fact, i was thinking to take up a malay language course.

Younger generation can no longer speak a proper sentence in Chinese, regardless of Cantonese or Hokkien or others. “Mother tongue” has been reduced and diluted so much that it is just a “foreign language”. English is our mother tongue now.

The government has never really been sincere about promoting chinese education despite talking and advertising about it. Chinese lessons have been reduced in schools, subjects taught in chinese have been removed, most subjects are taught in English. Chinese is no longer required as a pre-requisite for University entry. On the streets, signage in Chinese has been removed, except in China town and tourist areas. Government agencies are mainly english speaking.

The entire ecology of Chinese education has been systematically removed… And you wonder why despite the government’s efforts to promote Chinese, the standard of Chinese is dropping…

Wonder no more… It is systematic removal of the Chinese Language.

126,

Why should Singaporeans require Chinese for Uni entry? We are not a Chinese Republic.

i do hope all these “protests” will not fall on blind eyes or deaf ears of those in the government admin. their problem is one of “we know better than you – so listen to me.” such topdown approach is no longer appropriate. they should alos learn from the noise from the messes. i do hope they realise that they are now dealing with singaporeans [who have seen as much if not more of the world than them] to know what have gone wrong with their past polciies!!!

No wonder MM’s Press Secretary had to react in such a way. He was protecting MM’s legacy in order to warm the nice platinun coffin GIC, Temasek and Singapore taxypayers had coughed out generously for him.

If you can put yourself into the shoes of a government, you will understand. Nobody is saying you cannot use dialects in your daily life, but to ask the government promote the use of dialect is a different story.

www (#130),

But what government is doing is prohibiting the institutionalisation of dialects.

Which do you think it is a better idea: to officially promote good English, good Chinese, or dialects, or everything? What benefits do you want to achieve for the society if you are the government?

You may not like the way he talks, but he is not passing a law to ban the use of dialects.

LKY is committing acts of discrimination; language discrimination amounts to ethnic discrimination and systematically wiping out all hokkiens, teochews, cantonese…. in Singapore! Everyone, do you remember Milosokvic (spelling?)? Thus, we should/must bring him to court (WHICH COURT?) and impeach him (as the prime minister or miniser mental?). The time has come. Come on everyone, we are really the voice for our nation, our people and our land.

To www March 21st, 2009 3.41 pm,

That is right, he is not passing any law. But he is discrimintating other languages. Does that come under any discrimination laws in singapore?

All we want is respect and free use of languages from respective ethnic groups, races…

Eh…. SM just made a presentation in English (captured on Channel News Asia) somewhere in Guangzhou , China two days…..

What is this !!

It is a pity that young Singaporeans speak and write such poor English and apparently can not perform in Mandarin as well. The education system is failing Singaporeans. I am finding it increasingly difficult to understand the English of young Singaporeans. Foreigners even ask me what language these young people speak as they can not understand them. I understand that the same is happening with Mandarin.

One moment, it is ‘Speak Good English’. The next moment, ‘Be Heard in Mandarin’. Now, Mandarin is to be the mother tongue of Singaporeans. Why doesn’t the government focus on one thing at a time? Get one thing right first and move on from there. In other nations, students are taught their native tongue first. Once they are grounded in that, they can choose to learn another language. English is the medium of education, law, commerce and government in Singapore but the English is not taught to a good standard to-day. Mandarin is apparently taught poorly too. Otherwise, Singaporeans will not need to bother with private tutors.

At the end of a person’s educational life, there is apparently nothing to show but poor language skills? This is depressing.

Is Mr Chee a Singaporean? Did he not learn anything from all those courtesy campaigns in the 70s and 80s?

Interestingly, not long ago I noticed this ad for the Subordinate Courts of Singapore.

The irony is that even the Singapore GOVERNMENT sometimes NEEDS positions that require dialect proficiency. Where are they going to get people to fill the positions below if learning dialect is stupid? Does Mr Chee want all the courts to have no interpreters in future? How do we maintain functioning courts by then?

LANGUAGE EXECUTIVES [CHINESE & MALAY]
Junior Executive Jobs by The Subordinate Courts

(a) CHINESE INTERPRETERS’ SECTION

• You must have an Honours or Pass University degree, preferably majoring in Chinese studies or English. You must also have at least a B4 credit in Chinese at ‘AO’ level and a B4 credit in GP.
• You are expected to render accurate and professional interpretation and translation of documents in English, Chinese and/or dialects you are proficient in. You are also required to mediate in maintenance cases and to perform any other duties in the administration of justice.

@21

Actually u r right, he is peranakan and not Hakka. He made a honest mistake as he doesnt know his roots well. His daughter Lee Wee Ling pointed out that they r actually peranakan in the Strait Times commentary a few months ago after the ending of the tc 8 peranakan tv series lol…