heaven knows

second video, 3 minute 35 second to 3 minute 50 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjUgzMaN6cY

Quote: Josie Lau: I didn’t know her until I starting working on.

So apparently Josie Lau and Maureen Ong didn’t know each other even though they attend the same church.

–

Those who attend Church of Our Savior at Margaret Drive.

1. Josie Lau (President) and husband Alan Chin
2. Charlotte Wong (Vice-president)
3. Irene Yee (Committee member)
4. Jenica Chua (Honorary secretary)
5. Maureen Ong (Honorary treasurer)
6. Sally Ang (Assistant honorary secretary)

–

“Asked if their takeover was a planned coup, Ms Lau said: ‘No.’ She and Ms Ong claimed they had only just got to know each other” ST 20th April

Fake smile, defensive posture, downturned mouth, fake American accent. Just decided to cancel my DBS credit card.

From the past few days of watching CNA and the media, I must say that the committee both past and present lacks any professionalism, despite very high profile job titles…..

In observing the body language, the President seems to be grabbing ideas from the air and not telling the truth ….

Likewise, all the past office bearers seems ready to use the media to air their grievances…

I wonder if they had sought Chan Heng Chee or Claire Chiang’s views before the names are being “vomitted out” during the interview …..

Same phoney front, same baloney, same irritating accent.

Wonder if Josie Lau can she see Johor from her house?

Well it seems she is prepared to lose her day job to be president. (“Consider the lilies of the field …”)

Can any of the past presidents say the same thing?

As to whether there is a Taliban Christian agenda, let us not pass judgement until someone openly comes out with evidence that will past the test of public opinion or in court. Not net anon.

There is sufficient ground to call EOGM based on the cull of heads of sub committees. Leave it at that.

Well done Josie. Agree with you that there is a need for AWARE to get back to basics. For too long, the old guards have been allowing themselves to be too diversified and taking on issues beyond those of the women.

Good to hear that you are taking today’s political, social and economic climate into consideration and striving to pursue the cause of the struggling widow and single mother.

Equiping the younger woman to take on leadershp roles is another item worth our compliments.

Most importantly, at this juncture, it is great to hear that your committee is looking into reconciling with the old guards. It is the correct thing to do, to open your arms to welcome them to work alongside you.

Unfortunately, I do feel that the reconciling prospects is not one I am optimistic about, for the simple fact the there are bruised egos to deal with.

Great job! so far. Keep it up! AWARE is in good hands.

The standard of questioning is very tame and friendly. They need to be more agressive in extracting more information and a clearer insight into the thinking of the person being interview. They should adopt some of tha tactics of hardtalk.

Josie is not very articulate for a VP of a major bank in Singapore, is she? How does she expect to inspire and lead an established and intellectual NGO such as AWARE by speaking in this manner?

And noticed that she referred to AWARE as “your” organisation. Does that sound like she does not consider herself to be part of AWARE, to say the least the President of AWARE? Geez… mind your language Josie…

AWARE has had many distinguished leaders such as Constance Singam, please don’t let Josie bring down the good name and work of AWARE!

For those who can, do join AWARE (through their website) and give Josie and her gang the VOTE OF NO CONFIDENCE in the EOGM. Although this may sound like coming down to their level of dirty politics but think of all the AWARE funds and resources that are in their hands now.

Do something so that they can’t use their ill-gotten gains to further their highly suspicious agenda!!

the quality of that talkshow is embarassing. P N Balji has to go. they had the chance to extract some answers and put the interviewees to the sword. if she had gone on the bbc or al jazeera, she would’ve been skewered because you can’t go in unprepared on say, paxman, and hope to escape.

Like the wonton mee that is not up to standard, I would like to return Josie to the shop that she came from.

Is someone keeping a tally of people who have signed up as members of AWARE and willing to vote these people out in the EOGM? We have to be sure that we have the numbers to outgun them!!

Josie Lau had an opportunity to articulate clearly why her new exco is best suited to run AWARE but unfortunately she wasn’t very convincing.

Leaving aside the controversial power grab and anti-gay stance first, she could only state one new thing the new exco would do differently from the old guard (the wind beneath my wings programme). This is not sufficient to convince people that the new exco is any better than the old guard (consolidating activities is not considered a new initiative since it is too general and lacking in details). She knew she was going to be on national television to sell their case but could only come up with one new initiative (and justifying it by saying it is too early to comment on other new programmes). Disappointing to say the very least.

On to the more controversial issues. Incredibly, Josie claimed that it was not an orchestrated power grab. I do not know who many people actually believe her when she said that. She expects people to believe that most of the new members who joined before the AGM happen to coincidentally unanimously agree that the new exco members are better qualified than the old guard competing for the same post and that 5 or 6 of the new exco happens to be coincidentally from the same church. Josie and Maureen has put their integrity on the line and I am afraid their integrity has been compromised.

She was asked if she would support a lady who has different sexuality and who is being discriminated. After a very long pause (incredibly she did not seem to expect that this question would be asked after all the cyberspace brouhaha, as she seems to be thinking of how to answer as she went along), she did not give a definite yes but said that the new exco would have to debate this. Her response will only serve to fuel speculation about the new exco’s religious conservative stance.

Very impromptu, picking words from the air, adhoc idea, no clear clue of being a leader. Insist others to support her new agenda or ideas but she could not explain what those were and Maureen seems like a spokesman to intervene and help her answer most of the questions. This is totally an embarrassing moment for the new exco member.

Same as LKY when he ride the tiger of social democrarcy.

Just as as Organisation, hold your power and elimnate your enemy.

How can Singapore be in first world if all bosses has this type of thinking whether Christian or Non Christain!

Obama will push Hillary Cilton to bankrupt if he had this type of thinking.
Asian leaders always got this moyopic thinking and never admit defeats!

#14,

Well, she did have a program within the short span of 4 days in office. She knows where she wants the new AWARE to be heading – back to basics. How many programs did AWARE had in 25 years? More importantly, how many new programs did AWARE have in recent times except those that we have been hearing about that have nothing to do with the majority of women.

A supporter?
http://www.nowhere.per.sg/?p=1307

Alice Cheong in Wonderland on 18 Apr 2009 07:15 pm

A peek at values coached at Anglican Church of Our Saviour
Quoting the resource on Anglican Church of Our Saviour at Margaret Drive (or by navigation, visit their website, click on “Resources” on the left, click on “Seminars and Camp Notes”, scroll down to section “OOS Deeper Life Camp 2006 – We Are Family!”, and select the notes for God’s Order For The Family):

Under “Take first the family”

“The husband is the head, and as such has to act as God’s vice-regent, to govern not according to his, but according to the divine will.”

“The wife is in subjection to her husband, even as the Church is subject to Christ,…”

“Divine order is an order of authority and responsibility that is spelled out in the Bible
1. Head of every man is Christ
2. Head of every woman is the man

3. … “

Under “God’s Order for Wives”

“Regardless of what we think, God has declared to us that His will for a young woman is to do four things:

1. marry
2. bear children
3. guide the house
4. not be a reproach to her husband”

…

“A wife’s primary responsibility is to give of herself her time, and her energy to her husband, children, and home.”

Perhaps, we now have a good idea of what may be implemented by the new AWARE team, who attend Anglican Church of Our Saviour, which subscribed to the above values.

Let’s repeat after me…. “a young woman is to do four things: (1) marry (2) bear children (3) guide the house (4) not be a reproach to her husband”

She looks unprepared for this and if things are staying the way it is now. I do not see her leading the organisation very far. If she is not prepared, she could have turn the interview down till later.

With the right support and guidance, a little more humility, she could be the right person for the job.

To 16# Gemami

What basic has LAU woman spelt out? The basic is already there which was built by the old guard. Having plan within 4 days after usurping the old leadership is as good as no plan at all when the new members decided to vote out the old exco members. If this is not a plot, than what was it?

There was not even the slightest respectful gesture from the new exco committee to share and consult with the old guards in making future plan favourable to AWARE. If MM, SM can still keep their political jobs, why can’t the new exco members keep the old guards and listen to their view as mentor instead of disagreeing every advices they gave and harshly threw them aside like a used linen? If a person is only faithful to god and unfaithful to ordinary human beings, than she should not, in any other way, represent humans in this planet.

Agree with a comment in another thread that pointed out that Josie should not be making any appearances and making any comments whatsoever publicly while under investigation by her employer.

I do not for one minute think that DBS would have agreed to her recent TV appearance. Looks to me that she has absolutely no regard for authority. Would such a personality be suitable to lead AWARE?

I want a refund on my ‘wonton mee’!!!

Who was in charged of AWARE? – The Old Women.
Who approve the membership of new members? – The Old Women.
Who scrutinize the new members and ensure new members understood what AWARE stood for? – The Old Women.
Who drew up the constitution? – The Old Women.
Who is at fault for taking things for granted? – The Old Women.

Why the sudden cry of ignorance?

“…boo hoo hoo, … our skirts are half way down, not fair! … boo hoo hoo …be wary of this new exco … boo hoo hoo … they do not have AWARE’s interest at heart … boo hoo hoo … they are not secular … boo hoo hoo … they believe in a Christian God … boo hoo hoo … a God Who is not gay … boo hoo hoo … we have just lost our pet hobby … boo hoo hoo … what are we going to do? … boo hoo hoo … our 25 year old toy has been snatched away from us … boo hoo hoo … they are going to damage our smelly toy … boo hoo hoo …”

The old guards ought to have known that ‘change’ is the current world trend. There is change in the US, change in our region, Malaysia and Thailand as examples, change even in the way our beloved PAP are doing things, for better or for worse, that is.

Heck, even underwear needs to be changed! If you do not want change, then be like the PAP, consolidate your power and bring in your own kind. Just make sure that every member is invited to tea-parties for you to scrutinize them. You will surely be in power for another 25 years.

BTW…. why are they all dressed in black as if it was a funeral? Shouldn’t they project a more vibrant image if CHANGE is what they are proposing?

Sorry couldn’t help myself…. Sarah Palin had her little red number. And it seems like Josie is always in black (note her black outfit on the day she was elected).

I’m a woman but after this, i am not convinced to join. Even if i joined, i’m not convinced these people could lead AWARE well.

As many people pointed out, the body language of the AWARE reps speaking seems to tell a lie. Hesitating and filtering of thoughts after every question and all. Not smart. Not smart at all.

To #20) David,

Some good questions you have and I am glad you did not jump on the bandwagon of the distortedly overhyped religious and sexuality issues.

“The basic is already there which was built by the old guard“.

Precisely! The basic foundation by which AWARE was founded was primarily to advance the cause of women like sexual equality, equal opportunities and prevention of abuse, just to name some.

Over recent times, AWARE has grown into and activist group fighting for causes that has nothing to do with women at large. It is debatable whether pursuing causes like one’s sexuality is offensive to the general population of women at large, or not. It is another thing to proclaim to be secular and another to deride one’s religious belief altogether.

Like it or not, there will always be the religious influence on anyone in a position to make decisions, even if they proclaim to be secular or atheist. If it is not religion, there will be the cultural and racial factor to consider as well. The old AWARE has been ignoring this for far too long perhaps? It is one thing to say that you are what you are but it is another thing altogether to do the things that you say you are. I believe it is here that the old AWARE has been caught with their pants/skirts down.

Why bemoan the sudden attendance of 100 plus members at the recent election when you are clearly aware that there has been a mass application for membership the past three months? Is this a normal trend or something that ought to have triggered some sense of suspicions? This is where the ‘complacency’ theory comes into play, doesn’t it?

Let us give some credence to your suspicion that this could be a plot. If it is indeed a plot, then I would say, well done. It was very well carried out and the people who made it possible are – again – the old guards, like I have reasoned above.

The main thing here is not to listen to hearsays and the distorted words of many, for whatever personal grievances or agenda one may have. It is important to listen to the parties concern and it is here that the constitutionally elected members must be given the leverage to state their position – for which Jossie has pleaded for time since the chain of events that led to her first interview had prevented her team from getting down to work.

“… There was not even the slightest respectful gesture from the new exco …”

Perhaps you might want to examine why this is so? Has the old guards congratulated any of the new guards? That would have been the gracious thing to do wouldn’t it? No they did not. In fact, from the moment they were ousted, there had been a relentless outburst of foul play and what not. How then would you have reacted under these circumstances? In this regards, Josie has done well.

“… why can’t the new exco members keep the old guards and listen to their view as mentor instead of disagreeing every advices they gave”

It depends on what you are being made to hear, my friend. Are the old guards ready for even the slightest changes, or, are they pursuing their own personal agenda of discriminating the new guards? Are the old guards ready to listen to the new voice as legally elected by its own members. Why are the old guards disregarding the votes of the members they have themselves approved as members?

I close my comments with your own words; “… if a person is unfaithful to an ordinary human being … he should not, in any other way, represent humans in this planet”.

My advice to the old guards is to listen and respect the voice of AWARE’s members who have spoken and spoken loudly.

Well done President of AWARE. At least you have the courage to speak up. Be calm and give the old guards more rope..reconcile if possible but dont let them rush you into trouble.
It is kind of amazing that this thing started with the victory of a new team and instead of being more open-minded and allow the new team to do its job, the whole team started to bring down the new team with self-proclamation that the new members are pro-Christian and anti-gay..and for the next 100 housr or so they stick these brands on to them. But they have not said anything then, they have not done anything too to warrant this sort of stigma. I am a neutral party and I think it is most unfair. Give them a chance, lah!
If other institutions are to be run this way and with such ferocity in Blogs then i think there is going to be great instability ahead for social and private organisations!!!

Personally, I feel that they are just a group of power crazy people. Though all of them are highly educated professionals, I don’t see anything great in them. Hope they are not just making use of AWARE for pursuit of personal interests.

gemami,

I am not sure what is your point in #22. Are you saying that change is good simply because of change itself? You should not compare the AWARE change in Exco to the change platform in the USA put forth by Obama. The new exco has not put forth any compelling reason why their change is better than the old guard. Obama on the other hand, campaigned very smartly on change because of the disastrous policies of Bush which alienated Americans from the world. We should not be campaigning for change for the sake of change. Singaporeans understand this, otherwise we would have a change in ruling party every 5 years.

I believe the old guard knew of the need for positive change, that’s why they approve the nomination of new exco members in the first place. Is the old guard’s present reaction due to sour grapes and bruised egos? Certainly. Is the old guard’s reaction understandable? Certainly as well especially in view of how the new exco took over, did not make any effort to explain their policies and reach out to be inclusive to the old guard (even though now Josie says she wants to mend fences).

The problem with the new exco is not their religious beliefs, to which everyone is entitled to their own. The problem with the new exco is their lack of EQ, their inability to understand that reaching out to the old guard and being inclusive is more important than whatever new initiatives or energies they can bring to the table, if they want to be successful in implementing the initiatives. The old guard may be sterile in ideas and have become complacent, but the smart thing for the new exco would have been to tap on their experience instead of alienating them completely. The new exco members are all highly placed professional women, and one would expect them to understand this principle quite readily. Unfortunately, for whatever reasons, the new exco has chosen to go down a divisive path, which ironically have severely damaged any chances of them bringing about positive change to AWARE.

#26) mrthinktalk,
Agree totally, fully and whole-heartedly with your comments.

#20) David,
I posted a reply to your comments. Have to wait for Mr Moderator to release my comments :)

25) mrthinktalk on April 20th, 2009 3.40 pm
I say what the new President of AWARE has done is despicable. Watch the interview again and see how they lie. Blatant liars.

Hi Maverick,

My point is a very simple one; that change is part and parcel of life, sometimes even beyond our control. For whatever reason the change takes place, as long as it is legal and within the framework provided for, then the change must be acceptend and respected.

My other point is for the old guards to respect the constitutional right of the new exco which has been legally voted into the leadership role. Whatever grouses they may have, whether they pertain to the issues being tossed about, or not, is another matter.

The members have spoken by way of their votes and in any democratic process, this must be respected and accepted. Declare war if you must but you will need to re-group, re-strategize and re-gain your positions by the democratic and constitutional way.

I think there are many silent observers who can see that AWARE was moving towards supporting the gay & lesbian movement. Probably the reason why membership was dropping over the years.

When AWARE screened Spider Lilies, all doubts and uncertainty were finally cleared up. It’s true that that film is not a “hardcore”, but the direction of AWARE became crystal clear.

Funny that every time the old guards talk about what AWARE stands for, somehow the issue of choice of sexuality (in plain words: lesbianism) is always brought up.

Is the issue of lesbianism such a major issue facing Singapore women? Are there not other more important issues in current climate of economic crisis?

Josie, you claim that you only took up the president’s post after everybody rejected it, hence making you look like a reluctuant recipient of the post, who had it forced upon her by circumstance.

But in DBS’ statement, you were said to have told them the AFTERNOON of the ex-co meeting that you intended to run for the Presidency, a request which DBS rejected…which means youknew before the ex-co meeting that you wanted to run!

Please admit you LIEd on national television. If you don’t, the public is to assume you are accusing DBS of lying in their statement.

If that is what you are asserting, I think DBS should get their lawyers to come after you.

If you remain silent, that seems to be the assertion you’re making, that DBS is lying.

#18, Nuetral

“let’s repeat after me…. “a young woman is to do four things: (1) marry (2) bear children (3) guide the house (4) not be a reproach to her husband”

Do you know that the old AWARE was ‘ a young ?????is to do 4 things: (1) marry who?
(2) bear children.. HOw? (3) guide the house.. it is more like guard the house (4) not to be a reproach to’ his’ husband

ABOMINATION.

which brings to mind…will people want somebody who twist her word and appear as insincere to lead them?

sadly, in SGP case, sometimes they do

I do not know what the old guards or the original AWARE management have done to futher the rights of women in Singapore. With only 200 members, I guess not much. Since it is not much of a women’s organisation, it should not expand it’s scope to handle gays as well. Focus on improving women’s rights and well-being in our society should be the order of the day. I think Gays should form their own rights group which then will give them a better representation than a Women’s group.

gemami,

I agree with everything that you said in #30. Unfortunately for the new exco, the old guard has regrouped (no doubt stung into action) by asking for the EOGM and vote of no confidence and whoever wins is all down to a numbers game. With the media (especially the straits times) in the old guard’s corner, I think it is highly unlikely that the new exco can survive the EOGM. The mistrust of the new exco among the old guard’s supporters is deep and whatever new initiatives the new exco can come up with (regardless of their merits) during the EOGM will be viewed with suspicion.

In the end, what has the new exco really achieved if they get voted out? That the democratic process is well and truly alive within AWARE? They could have the opportunity to implement their new policies to advance women’s causes and really made a difference, if they had more EQ and been more inclusive through their actions, not their words. Instead, they are being tagged (fairly or unfairly) as having a secret conservative agenda and Josie for example, has gotten into trouble with her employer.

Maverick,

You observation is spot-on.

However, there are always two side to a coin. As far as what I have heard and seen, I do know that the new exco came under fire for just being who they are.

The old guards have been singing a common refrain which place the new exco under relentless pressure to state their objectives eevn before they could say “hello” to one another.

The latest remark by ex-president Dana Lam speaks for the whole lot of them and their agenda against the new team. From out of nowhere, when asked about reconciliation, she retorted: ‘What are we supposed to reconcile if we don’t know what you’re about? AWARE is not about whether we are for or against Christianity; AWARE is not about whether we are for or against homosexuality.”

What does this say about the old guards? That they are pressing along this line of argument, using religion and sexual orientation as their backups.

This is the thing that sickens me most.

Hmm.. more truths out in the open now? Looks like ST is starting to take a moderate stand since the first report of the new team “muscling into the exco”

So former chairwoman resigned unilaterally on the 7th, Josie inform DBS of her intention to take up the position 2 days before the 15th. I don’t think she planned for it.

Guys and girls, stop reading into this too much. I don’t know how much details you have besides those that you read from the papers. I don’t, so I do not openly state that Josie is a liar, a hypocrite because I do not know that for sure.

For all you know, she truly wants to help and you people are falling into the scheme of the old guards who lost their group after being challenged and now felt sore about it.

31) josie LIED on April 20th, 2009 4.18 pm

Josie did it so blatantly, i wonder what level of moral standing does she hold, In the eye of her church and employer, it’s is very damaging.

Her ideas and beliefs all flawed. Do we want this person to represent an NGO and mould young women to be like her?

She has serious flaws in character and sincerity

i like how maureen asserted her supported for josie. “we are behind her all the way”

as though she is legitimate. LOL.

the ’she’ in my last comment refers to maureen.

#23..it’s indeed a funeral…passing of the old guards…thus black is most appropiate! They will dressed up to celebrate at a later date…

#6 – josie lau does not equal sarah palin ok… i take offence at that.
Sarah Palin is HOT. Josie Lau is NOT.

So that Hon Treasurer Maureen & President Josie do NOT know one another even though they are from the same church?! OK hear some of you say church very big lah how can know one another. But most sceptics will point out to you that there seems to be a cover up somewhere in that statement and documentary proof is needed to justify that.

The old AWARE is history….don’t bring them up again….they were slow, sloppy and some even retired mentally, how could they champion the cause of women.The number of single mother is on the rise; the number of battered and abused women is on the rise; the number of unwanted pregnancy is on the rise; everything women is on the rise, except their well being. Come on , old AWARE should have given more time to women instead wasting time on gays and lesbians. Women were your priority and not the non women or non men. It is no wonder the membership dropped to 200 of old, can’t walk fast, ‘par see boey chow” or ‘chea par tan see’ members who treated the assocaition as a get away from home club.
The writing was on the wall, old women of old AWARE. Just that you ignored it. You now cry fowl. Look you are no phoenix rising from ashes. You are fowls.

One more thing, some poster pointed out that the church’s website where both Maureen & Josie attends asserts that the man is the ruler of the household & women are subjugated under them. In the CNA interview, both women talked about changes to the constitution that will allow men the right to vote if the new constitution is passed. This allowing men to vote issue was vetoed previously by the Old Guards under former President Constance Singam. OMG! Seems like Josie is going to push hard to revive it as it falls within her church’s teachings! Heaven help us Spore women! If she so believes that AWARE should remain secular do NOT bring your religion in by pushing issues close to your church’s teachings.

Next, DBS should just test her tolerance as a head of department & see how well she interacts with people of diversity eg hire some gays & lesbians & put them in her department to see how she treats them. Cos a good leader who plays by the rules would not discriminate.

after hearing the interview,
I learnt something new.
I now know that in an organization, can have a
President, Exco, Constitution, voting, vote of confi or no confidence,
Wow, like a mini country ??? kekekekeke

wow sg very democratic leh.

like this got politicking or not/

The Church Of Our Saviour is a small Anglican community church and does not have sizeable membership numbers compared to the mega churches. The claim made that these women did not know each other before ending up in AWARE’s exco beggars belief.

A person trained in the actuarial sciences should calculate the remote odds for the outcome of 6 attendees of a neighbourhood church running for office for 11 postions in a secular national women’s group by sheer coincidence without any prior communication amongst themselves.

Why is it so difficult to come clean about a pre-planned effort to take leadership roles in AWARE ? The need to deny gives greater credence to some undisclosed agenda that the persons involved are not prepared to be forthcoming about.

On the other hand, assuming that each and every one of them told the truth when they said that they did not have previous contact with one another and there was no pre-arranged collective plan to run for office, there must then be an instigator/ animator or two behind the curtain pulling the strings, orchestrating and directing these manchurian candidates individually to get into the AWARE exco for some purpose that the pawns have yet to be made privy to. This is the more insidious scenario.

The relevant authority must investigate if some persons are using the cover of temple/mosque/church as a staging ground and launching pad to infiltrate registered societies and civic groups to advance their religious beliefs and practices. Such actions if allowed to persist, may tear apart the tolerant and harmonious multi-racial, multi-religious fabric of Singapore which the government and people have steadfastly built up.

Many will recall that in 2005, the Anglican Church failed to adequately explain why its former head Bishop was prominently supporting a controversial individual in his bid to wrest the Elected Presidency from the incumbent, the honourable Mr SR Nathan. The Bishop’s candidate was eventually disqualified from running after a thorough vetting process.

If a covert black operation is discovered in the recent events in AWARE, the clandestine plot should be exposed, the organisers and their henchpersons should be arrested, detained, rehabilitated and only released after they no longer pose a threat to society .

#49 concerned said : “The relevant authority must investigate if some persons are using the cover of temple/mosque/church as a staging ground and launching pad to infiltrate registered societies and civic groups to advance their religious beliefs and practices.”

#18 neutral said : “The wife is in subjection to her husband, even as the Church is subject to Christ,…”
“Divine order is an order of authority and responsibility that is spelled out in the Bible
1. Head of every man is Christ
2. Head of every woman is the man

Since Josie subscribes to such a concept, perhaps its timely to investigate if her husband, Alan Chin, and her church, COOS, had something to do with this. Afterall, she is in *subjection* to them both.

Logical?

I’ll keep an open mind on the developments in AWARE. However, there are far too many “coincidences” and “inconsistencies”:

1. Large number of new members joining AWARE shortly before the “takeover” and the unusal turnout at the AGM;
2. High proportion of new EXCO members who are from the same church but “do not know one another”;
3. Common values system of the new EXCO members on homosexuality (well, yah they are from the same church);
4. swift, united, decisive action by the new EXCO in booting out many of the sub-committee old guards including its adviser, which does not suggest that “the New Team at AWARE wishes to remember and honour the work of past AWARE members for their vision and endeavours to advance the cause of women in all areas of society through advocacy and community work.”
5. DBS’s credit card campaign in support of Focus on The Family in 2008 while the current president of AWARE was head of the marketing team in DBS

The confluence of events above would, in TV dramas, predispose in the viewer to a certain conclusion, would it not?

TL,

Cancel your credit card because DBS Sucks, not because of Ms Lau. What has she done wrong? You are just like the MR Choo ZX, jumping to conclusion because you dont like christianity and thats about it. If u so dislike christians check if your bosses you are working under are one or your co-workers, quit for goodness sake!

TOC,
I hope all future postings and articles have the christians faith in mind and not just favoritism for a select few who supported the old AWARE and land TOC into unwanted attention. It will be unfortunate that christians will boycott this website since it has been filled up by a group of vitriolic netizens and even one TOC writer who spilled nonsense in this matter. What has TOC shown me along is their neutral stance, a bit anti-government but never anti christian views but this has changed these few days. I am deeply disappointed. As for the gays and lesbians, please do yourself a favour by not writing nonsense here on this matter as it is pointless to argue, while time and effort spent could have had helped a needy person. Why waste your own time? If needed go setup up AWARE2.

Simon

Give the NEW AWARE a chance to proof (or is it prove?) themselves!,

Erm… your suggestion of asking them to go set up AWARE2 isn’t too correct.

What about all the funds and resources that the previous exco and members had accumulated over the years? Would Josie and her gang be willing to give it back? ill-gotten gains… ill-gotten gains…

Talk about condo raiders, now watch out for the NGO raiders!!

51) Give the NEW AWARE a chance to proof themselves! on April 20th, 2009 7.56 pm
Dear Simon
Can you please watch and listen to what Josie and Maureen said and watched by millions of viewers. They are telling lies in front of national TV. What a shame.
Read the newspaper that Josie told her employer that she intended to run for the top post. Read the papers that the six of the EXCO members are from small church in Queenstown, (I live here) and know this church. They claim they don’t know each other. Read that many new members joined aware filling in photocopies of application forms. An educated person can immediately know that there is behind the scene effort by a militant coup.

# 50,

Really admire your many post views within a day How about some real action to put money on your posts, and doing more – for the start you can join AWARE if you are already not a member, and take your issues there – it is probably more effective if you talk the ladies directly -perhaps over wanton mee to tell them to bring the old AWARE back for you.
Good luck.

Interesting.

So apparently Xians are allowed to preach and push their beliefs onto others.
And the “others” who oppose it are anti-Xian?

Just because we don’t agree with homophobic beliefs, means we’re pro-gay and promoting a gay lifestyle?

Your right to swing your fist around, ends right infront of our face, if you exceed your rights; pardon me but we can’t help to respond accordingly.

The new AWARE exco members claim not to have a hidden agenda even though a large number of members from the same church signed up and voted each other in. Several of which who has been known to be homophobic christians.

Then they turn around and poses whether or not the Old Guard of AWARE has a hidden agenda when they call for aid and subsequently called for a EOGM and most possibly a vote of no confidence.

Double standard much?

Do take note in the interview, when she was asked what would their stand be when a lesbian woman loses her job because of her sexuality.

Josie Lau was unable to give a satisfactory answer. Not that I blame her, since a homosexual lifestyle puts the woman as a sinner in the eyes of her faith.

A Lesbian woman is not a woman? Albeit one who is a sinner, does she not deserve support from AWARE which fights for Women’s rights.

How can we trust a group of people like that to fight for women’s rights?

Retiree,

Just learning from the older folks here like you.. ;D

Woman can’t differentiate sexual discrimination and sexuality discrimination.

Uninspiring tepidity.

Most of us who are against Josie and gang not because we are pro gay or pro lesbian. It is because once the fundies are done with gays and lesbian, all of us who do not subscibe to their view of life are the next target…..

Well said acidrush

Urrrgggghhhhh…. The whole new ex-co has absolutely no idea about the principles behind AWARE and all it stands for. And to deliberately manipulate a coup like that is downright revolting! I’m absolutely disgusted to know that Fundamental Christians have the audacity to over-take an organisation like AWARE to fulfill their own subversive agendas. Awful!

The problem with Josie Lau, Maureen Ong and company are their insincerity and hypocrisy that surround their real reasons.

It has nothing to do with their religious belief.

the interview was an amazing exercise in obfuscation and the interviewers of insight unfortunately did not offer any insight at all. what a bore.

i liked comment (49), i think all the circumstances already proves their conspiracy beyond a reasonable doubt, which in a criminal case, would mean guilty.

Nobody should give new exco any chance. If you are led by someone who picked bones out of porridge like her peculiar relationship with wanton , one can expect their EQ is below standard.

Well Josie employer told her not to get involved……so she must have taken her direction from somewhere….see 18) …. see 49)

It’s not in the best interest of her employer over the spotlight Josie is in right now.

30 n 33 n others about J lying
I dont think so
be professional and don’t be vindictive Give them a chance
and don’t ask questions and answer your own questions
They could have discussed before the afternoon and she prepared
for it. Dont extrapolate after watching TV or else I think you are
a liar yourself!

To concerned #49

You nailed it all, that spells the fear and the reason for uproar all written in bit and pieces.

I want to duplicate your wise statements that serves as warning to the NEW exco members:-

“The relevant authority must investigate if some persons are using the cover of temple/mosque/church as a staging ground and launching pad to infiltrate registered societies and civic groups to advance their religious beliefs and practices. Such actions if allowed to persist, may tear apart the tolerant and harmonious multi-racial, multi-religious fabric of Singapore which the government and people have steadfastly built up.”

Call me superficial. But Josie does not give me a lot of confidence in the leadership at DBS. In particular her doubtful professional behavior and apparent lack of integrity. If one can blatanly go against a corporattion’s policy, not just once but twice, what can you expect her to do where there is not such a well structured organization like AWARES. And here is one person who claims to want to bring AWARE back to basics; like all good corporations, consolidate after diversification. blah , blah , blah. In many companies that I know of, wilful noncompliance of a well established corporate policy would have warranted very strong management action. Twice would have been tantamount to a corporate revolt and the employee politely shown shown the door. I am also going to be calling DBS to cancel my cards. You have destroyed my faith in a bank that I used to think so highly of.

I am always wary of women stealing power – they have something to prove here.

Nowadays, we men have no where to stand – women trying to conquer the world here.

How come men don’t have a association for men?

Guess women want to prove a point here.

I previously only paid passing interest in the 377 or was it 337 debate. Had nothing to do with me.

However this episode with Aware frightened me with how organised religious fundamentalist are in Singapore. I cannot believe I for once hope the authorities step in before things start tearing apart. I alway hated government involvement in day to day life but this goes beyond that… I do not want a Angmo version of Afganistan in Singapore…which is the long term aim…

Copied from somewhere:

“First they came for the gay and lesbians…. I did not speak up as I was not one….

And then they came for the abortion doctors… I did not speak up as I was not one….

And then they came after adulturers… I did not speak up as I was not one….

And Then they came for ME (an unbeliever)… And there were no one left to speak up….”

69) Gilbert,

You can join the newly formed AMEN. Association of Men Easily Neutured

46) PEACE,

Your point about the Old Guard not exactly doing too much for women in Singapore may be valid. And maaaaaaybe the New Guard may actually deliver better overall results without pushing for any agenda that marginalizes any women of whatever gender preference.

But do think about how the New Exco hijacked the reins of leadership. It may be legal and constitutional, but ethical? Intellectually honest?

Sure, Christians are called on to spread the faith, but Christians are also called to be MORAL. To quote someone really famous – “And what shall it profit a man (or woman) if he were to gain the whole world and lose his (or her) own soul?”

[...] Watch the CNA Interview, Courtesy of Excellent Work done by The Online Citizen. [...]

Wah, and this is the sort of talent that rose through the ranks at DBS? A slouching posture on TV and a less than competent command of Americanese?

#74

Even worse by yr criteria. She was from Tourism Board. She came in at VP level in 2004 according to ST report.

But respect her for one thing. She got balls of brass. Prepared to sacrifice her DBS job for Wimmin’s cause. Any other ex-president prepared to do this.

And Constance S supported her employer. What a feminist! She shld applauded Josie for her courage.

As to the hen fight, I think right for Old Guard to call EOGM. Getting rid of all the sub com heads, doesn’t sound right.

But Josie has balls.

Imagine if Singapore is in the hand of these fundamendalist christian, Singapore is going to be like Kelantan in Malaysia, scare or not…….

“…think about how the New Exco hijacked the reins of leadership“. Joshua.

Hijack you say? Let us examine the process.
a. Who approved membership? – Old guards.
b. Who allowed members to stand for election? – Old guards.
c. Who voted? – all AWARE members who care enough to show up.

Ethical? you say.
What is an election process for? Twelve positions up for grabs. Did the old guards ever consider that there is always a possibility of losing all twelve seats in an election? or; do they think they are like the PAP who expects to walkover some and win the rest hands-down? Even the PAP dare not think along this line, that’s why every election is serious business for them. To think that the old guards have left every stone unturned speaks clearly of their inaptitute.

Intellectually dishonest?
Only to those who believe in the conspiracy theory. For those who believe that the new exco have reasons to believe that the old AWARE has lost its focus and purpose, it is nothing but good news. The “return to basics” comment from Josie is the surest hint yet, that the new exco is on the right track – championing the cause of the real woman, who by the way, makes up the majority of the population, and for which AWARE has undertaken to look after.

And….by the way Joshua, you need to correct the spelling for the word ‘NEUTERED’ if you are serious about AMEN – ha! ha! :)

#77

The pt of EOGM.

If the new exco wins, then the old guard’s friends have to stop all these allegations, innuendos and PAPish tactics. (For all I know these could be correct, I don’t know. Waiting for evidence)

And that the election was a not a freak result.

If the old guard wins, then it shows that they got the numbers and that AGM was a freak result.

Whatever it is both sides got dirty underwear.

77) gemami on April 21st, 2009 8.11 am

What do you mean by “championing the cause of the real woman”???

Like post no 74 said ” Josie has balls” so I think she is not a real woman. Don’t know her balls hairy or not.

A Tan 79)
If the old guards win ..it is the end of sanity!
The new committee has not anything yet..so what will the old guards supporters be voting on..?
The point is this…it will set a precedent for new committees of private organisations to be voted out by use of EGM based on heresays, innudendos etc..and before a chance is given for the new guards to manage. It will be a sad sad sad day if this happens..
Understand new members are being recruited with great urgency for this..Hope they are payiing for their own membership fees and no “money politics” involved here.

Aware Saga will mirror PAP in the future if LSL doesn’t hold all views together.

People are all getting more educated and intelligent ! I don’t see the existence of this socitey.

Is it those Wealthy Tai Tai’s doing nothing but have Shopping and High Tea and discuss about Godly issue but fail to help the poors!

#80) sgcynic,
An adult female human being who behaves like the other 99 percent of the women population.

80) sgcynic on April 21st, 2009 8.46 am
What do you mean by “championing the cause of the real woman”???

To guide all young female under AWARE wind under wings to be a real woman program:

God has declared to us that His will for a young woman is to do four things:
1. marry
2. bear children
3. guide the house
4. not be a reproach to her husband”

Most importantly be always be subservient

Lets take a look at the value of the Anglican Church of Our Saviour

Under “Take first the family”

“The husband is the head, and as such has to act as God’s vice-regent, to govern not according to his, but according to the divine will.”

“The wife is in subjection to her husband, even as the Church is subject to Christ,…”

“Divine order is an order of authority and responsibility that is spelled out in the Bible
1. Head of every man is Christ
2. Head of every woman is the man

3. … “

Under “God’s Order for Wives”

“Regardless of what we think, God has declared to us that His will for a young woman is to do four things:

1. marry
2. bear children
3. guide the house
4. not be a reproach to her husband”

…

“A wife’s primary responsibility is to give of herself her time, and her energy to her husband, children, and home.”

Perhaps, we now have a good idea of what may be implemented by the new AWARE team, who attend Anglican Church of Our Saviour, which subscribed to the above values.

Let’s repeat after me…. “a young woman is to do four things: (1) marry (2) bear children (3) guide the house (4) not be a reproach to her husband”

Do you think all these values were “very biased” against woman? and Josie was in this Church for so long and did nothing about it, so you hope that she will come to AWARE to fight for Woman’s right. The first thing she has to do is to fight to change the value of her own church. If she succeed, then maybe AWARE can give her a chance to be their president.

Gemami,

What you mentioned is exactly my point about it being a legal and constiutional process but not done with integrity. Almost everyone who voted for the new gang, and even the new gang themselves, regardless of whether they are invited only joined three months prior to the AGM. Now if they had any serious misgivings about the direction of AWARE, the right thing to do would be to raise it before the AGM, see if the Old Guard agrees they have taken AWARE too far away from their original objective. (In the absence of any information if the new gang did raise such issues prior to the AGM, I have to assume they don’t, if not either side would have mentioned it)

Whether they are invited or not is besides the point.

I’m sure we all have at one point or other are recruited, or got jobs within some organisation. They later we discover that their goals are in conflict with ours. Most of the time, we will raise our concerns in a civil manner first. And if the old management doesn’t listen, most of us either bear with it, or chose to resign. I may not agree with my boss, but I respect that the company was set up by him and it would be wrong of me to compete with him for leadership.

Two. It is, of course inference at the moment, but the new gang most likely didn’t find themselves in the new roles by accident. I’m not saying they had all these secret meetings in smokey rooms and hatched the plans right down to the last detail, but as someone pointed out, if it had been a coincidence that most of them just happened to what to be in the committee and got voted in, then most decent people with an ounce of fairplay in them WOULD offer to balance out the ‘power-sharing’.

As Constance had pointed out, they neither seeked nor accepted the advice of any one of the old guard left in the committee. The last I remember, HUMILITY is a trait that Christians should have.

The oft-repeated defense of “they said they wanted new blood, so we don’t understand why they are angry” is terribly shoddy. When was the last time you responded to a call for ‘new blood’ by taking over the reins of leadership? You may have the chance to do it, but why didn’t you? Maybe it’s that thing called DECENCY that told you not to?

Next, at the expense of repeating myself, I have to say the argument that they could make a better team and made AWARE focus back again comes from a consequentialist perspective. From the consequentialist perspective, it matters not how the battle is fought as long as more people benefit from it. But no-one can predict what will happen in the future. In the future all of us will be dead.

The issue at hand isn’t about whether AWARE has gone off track and the new gang has a ‘correct’ vision for womanhood. The issue (for me) is about fairness and decency.

No matter how good your motives may be, if by seeking your motives you resort to questionable means, you corrupt it. I’m not sure if you know much about the Christian belief, but if you do, then you would know that there are many instances where we were warned not to compromise our moral standards for some goals no matter how noble it is.

I have no quarrel with the women if they had started their own organization albeit with a more conservative stance. If, as you claim, that the old AWARE has lost its focus, then the new organisation would resonate much better with the larger, more conservative women population. It would be a fair competition. Why take over AWARE? Because it already has the reputation and resources, so it’s easier than starting your own? Easier? How convenient.

Now, I don’t know what is it about the old AWARE that you seem unhappy about. Perhaps them going ‘offtrack’ has got something to do with it. Which is fine by me. We’re not going to turn this into a gay vs anti-gay issue. (Because I’m not exactly the most liberal person on earth either. ) So I guess, when a new team comes along that happens to speak your vision, you would naturally consider it good news. But let’s not allow the joy that ’someone is finally speak up for us’ cloud you to the fact that it wasn’t done with the most honorable means.

Lastly, why did ‘honor’, ‘fairness’ and ‘decency’ crop up so often in my argument? Because, like it or not, as group, the first and foremost identity of the new gang are Christians. Before you jump to any conclusion, this is not about doctrinal/denominational differences. This isn’t about ‘oh and all Christians must be like this and this…’ because a) everyone is fallible and b) I am in no position to judge. But you see, in manners of issues like gay rights and abortion they are gonna act out their faith so strongly and proudly, then yet in other matters not hold fast to other principles, and hide behind the veil of secularity at their convenience, then that surely smacks of double standards.

And that is something that all of us have a duty to be wary about.

I would really like to see that email that was sent to all sub committee chair that said their service was no longer required.. how unceremoniously and disrespectful those emails was alleged to be.

It’s funny that majority of the folks here are getting emotional over hearsay that they have absolutely zero first hand knowledge or experience. Some even quoting the bible without understanding what it was meant.

For the sake of transparency, I graduated from Anglican High School where COS was located and attended bible classes as part of my school curriculum.

I have no reason to defend COS but I happen to have four years of first hand experience and knowledge of what the Church preach and what it does not.

FYI to those who this COS is small and woman are repressed… most of City Harvest’s pastors are from Anglican and majority of them are female.

Josie absolutely has no style in speech and dressing.

A leader ?? who tolerated frequent interjections and irritating interupption from her Treasurer ? Let her talk, will you Maureen ? She is your boss. Talk of big and focussed plans and yet cant articulate any of them. Shame, shame. Black is definitely not an “in” colour is she attending a funeral with Maureen or what ??

Talking-point programme is too short. Only touch the surface (introduction) with no time to go to the core issues . Not just with Josie but also with other issues. No marks for it. Either CNA have a good show or nothing.

taken from TOC article use of divisive labels
54) FeedMeToThe Lions on April 20th, 2009 7.45 pm

Too often the church does not present the truth of what it means to follow Jesus
And we are trying to convince people of a promise in the life to come without understanding the expectations in this life
We tell people just enough information to convince them to choose Jesus, but not what the life after choosing Jesus will look like

87) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on April 21st, 2009 11.52 am

Joshua,

Very clear explanation on your stand and I respect the position you have taken. Like you, I would prefer to strip the issue off all the poison arrows that are being thrown about and see how this problem came about in the first place.

On this, we can do nothing more than just speculate, unless we are one of the main players engaged in the saga. That’s why the issues of being the super-duper Christian and one’s sexual inclination do not hold any water with me. These are merely speculations that arose from ones fear. Can we charge anyone and find him guilty by association? Yes/No?

You mention “Honour and Integrity” and I have no quarrel with your argument. However, what I cannot fathom is the fact that the constitution allows for such a ‘takeover’, if you like. That’s why there is an election, that’s why members are seconded to stand for election, some of whom by the old guards themselves.

Don’t get me wrong, I understand that, ideally, the new members would have done well to arrange a meet up with the old guards to address some of the underlying issues that are plaguing them, but, if they choose not to pursue this end, then again, it is their prerogative to do otherwise. Fault them if you must, but is it wrong if they prefer the less ideal approach?

The other question is whether the new exco had tried this approach or not. Maybe they did, who is to know? Again we speculate. Judging from the endless comments both for and against the direction of the old AWARE, we can only surmise that the same scenario could be at play within the association of old. Did the old guards stood too firmly on those sensitive issues and ignored the views of the others? I would offer a probable “yes, they did”.

Joshua, you have painted some very ideal scenarios where the resolution of conflict is concern but the real world does not always work that way. This is what caught the old AWARE out. He who hesitates is lost, and the old members not only hesitated but were completely blind to the happenings in and around AWARE. I did mention the tell-tale signs somewhere here and the old guards simply could not have missed them if the care enough for what they are doing.

Fact is, whether this was a plot, a coup, a hijack or whatever, the result must be accepted for the simple fact that it happened along the constitutional provisions. Honour, integrity and moral uprightness becomes secondary when the new team are strongly for a serious overhaul of the current undertakings. Perhaps, they feel this is the most honourable approach to solving the lethargically managed association.

You also mentioned ‘fairplay’. I ask, “are the old guards being fair to cast so many aspersions and labels on the new team even before they have uttered their first words, even before they could say hello to each other?” We have to thread carefully with the reported comments that clings along the walls of being sinister.
Let us allow the new team to show us what they are. They have asked for a bit of time. For all who seriously want what’s best for AWARE, the best thing is to allow the new team some breathing space. Who knows, I may go over to your side of the argument should it show itself short of what they say they are, being the 3 pros.

The issue (for me) is about fairness and decency.

Indeed. Let us then be fair and let the constitutionally elected team get on with work. The old guards must stop being unfair and indecent.

i am a buddhist and taoist.

76 – wah ding dong, i really scare ah

Reliogious Fundamentalist are always against science, education and progress. Look how the Church tried to demonise Galileo, Copernicus, Darwin, etc….

Education leads people to question instead of following blindly….

Once the fundies are done with the gays and lesbians, the education system will be the next target….

If we are not careful, our kids would be learning about “Intelligent design”, “creationism”, “dinosaurs walks the earth with men as earth less than 10,000 years old”, and other fanciful rubbish…

Josie & friends

1) Start your own organisation lah. Free to promote religious programs. Things will be above board. Public knows that it is Christian support group for women. Lesbians and lower lifeforms from SPCA will not come near. Don’t behave like wolves in sheep’s clothing.

2) Did not serve before standing for election. Never spend time & effort to learn how things are run. How you know association got no depth. Judge not so that you shall not be judged.

3) You like it or not if outside pastor come with 20,000 followers & join your church. Next day they kick out your church council, sack your pastor. Afterward they start teaching about new effortless faith formula. You question their intention. They reply it was their destiny to reign as you have allowed them to join and worship in your church. How do you feel when 20,000 people refuse to take back the wonton. Do unto others what you would have them do to you.

Christians wonder why people don’t like them. I’ll just quote a few examples

1. Attend buddhist or taoist funerals, scared like chickens, don’t know any politeness to just go to the shrine in front the coffin to pay a respect. Their marriage, expect we non-christians to attend and sing their christian songs. They say this is giving the couple well wishes. I am open-minded enough to accept. But isn’t it the same principle, to just go to the front in a buddhist and taoist funeral to pay a respect to the dead? No cultural sensitivity! Why do you then expect people to tolerate you and your religion? No wonder, historically, they were often persecuted.

2. Once one of the family member become xtian, he will view other family members of different faiths like devils.

3. This lead to another point. They think that everybody have to accept their worldview. A secular society has to enshrine their value system.

Hmmm the above all sound like christian bashers……wonder how they will feel the muslim counterparts…..By the way, moderator, don’t you think the above is spreading hate and have no link to the topic involved?

About honesty

People talk about honesty. You just can’t expect honesty from these fundies. They will twist every well-established facts to satisfy their doctrine. What they do are just for their own ego. Their god is bigger than anything else. But don’t be mistaken that they give selflessly to the church. “God” is a just a projection of their own super ego. using the name of god to thrash their values down your throat is just a way of stamping their ego on you.

They mentioned something like the last man standing …I wonder if there was a tag team match going on during the meeting ….

Bashing is one thing. Whether it is the truth is another.

Hi WeiHan, u seem to have a lot of hate for christians…..do u even read the bible to understand wat u r scolding? Even athetists read the bible THEN they got a right to say wat they know. You don’t know what is truth till you read it THEN define truth for yourself.

I read some childish xtians hating the PAP government. They must understand, if it is not bcos of this government pro-english and anti-chinese educated policies in the past, we will not have as many prominent faked angmo in high positions it is today. Just imagine, if many nanyang university graduates were not discriminated and were allowed to serve equally in the many public services posts. So..don’t spew mindless stupid views.

About DBS….i read some chistians hating this company also….what else can they do? At least DBS has no majority share holders and some fundies like Josie has a relatively high post in the bank. Talking about the other two banks, they are held privately and have majority share holders who are non-christians. If you want to put money in other foreign banks, then good luck to you…they are not as safe. moreover, many are very pro-gays.

96) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 2.39 pm Christians wonder why people don’t like them. I’ll just quote a few examples

1. Attend buddhist or taoist funerals, scared like chickens, don’t know any politeness to just go to the shrine in front the coffin to pay a respect. Their marriage, expect we non-christians to attend and sing their christian songs. They say this is giving the couple well wishes. I am open-minded enough to accept. But isn’t it the same principle, to just go to the front in a buddhist and taoist funeral to pay a respect to the dead? No cultural sensitivity! Why do you then expect people to tolerate you and your religion? No wonder, historically, they were often persecuted.

Hmmm, alot of my christian friends dun seem to have a problem with that….and by the way, who say we dun pay respect to the dead? We just dun hold joss sticks and do the rituals. By appearing, they already showed respect to the dead….y dun u ask a muslim or jew or people of other religion to do wat u ask of christians?

2. Once one of the family member become xtian, he will view other family members of different faiths like devils.

Another joke…..my family are not christian and i m……feel like laughing my head off…..I love my family btw if u dun noe wat i mean.

3. This lead to another point. They think that everybody have to accept their worldview. A secular society has to enshrine their value system.

Ahhhhh…….we r taught “render to caesar wat is caesar’s” ….we do not think everyone have to accept our worldview. We have gambling, prostitution and so many other vices that we can think is “non- christian” in singapore…..we christians do what we learn but u see any giant christian protests over such things?

98) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 2.59 pm
About honesty

People talk about honesty. You just can’t expect honesty from these fundies. They will twist every well-established facts to satisfy their doctrine. What they do are just for their own ego. Their god is bigger than anything else. But don’t be mistaken that they give selflessly to the church. “God” is a just a projection of their own super ego. using the name of god to thrash their values down your throat is just a way of stamping their ego on you.

By the way, the above sounds like your own philosophy fuelled by your hate of christians….

Sidenote….dun turn this into a religious forum….i not interested to….

#98 WeiHan

That’s a very interesting take on the religion. Never thought of it this way till now…

I do not claim to know the bible but there is at least important fact which I grasped and many christians especially the fundies failed. The bible that we know today is a collection of scriptures which christians at that time has voted to be included and they have been influenced politically.

At least with a proper mindset, my understanding of christianity is not as skewed. What I wrote pertains to behaviour of xtians today and to the teachings and original gospel of Jesus.

LOL,

good for you. you can say what you like or you are not. It is for people to observe what I have written is true.

Why I have not demand muslim or jews to do the same? Firstly, I demand the same from them too or else to be fair, they can’t expect me to reciprocate. secondly, I have no muslims with such problems. Christians have bigger ego. Then, I have no jews among my friends.

Chill LOL,

Weihan must have had bad experiences with Christians therefore he felt the way he did. The truth is, we (including myself) are so often guilty of holier-than-thou pronouncements and Bible-thumping that we alienate the very people we are called to love. We act like self-appointed custodians of what’s right and what’s wrong regardless of what cultural differences there are between people. If we really want people to understand what Christianity is all about, the responsibility is on Christians to act like Christians and not Pharisees. Too often we fail to make that distinction.

Coming from a non christian background whose family and I used to hate christians, I can see where r coming from. But u r seriously under-read. You criticise wat u do not noe and u attack the religion because of PEOPLE who follow the religion.

You said about funerals, hating family when u become a christian and having a skewed worldview?
As I said, we have no problems with that. I dun understand where u are heading to just because some of your christian friends dun do wat u deemed fair.
Me and my friends attended buddhist funerals, muslim funerals, muslim weddings, buddhist weddings and we have no problems with it.
U seem to be criticising the whole religion just because a few christians erked u.

Muslims dun go christian weddings but i go for theirs. Am I suppose to hate/dislike them as well for their EGO? No….I treat them as my brothers and attend though i understand their religion do not allow them to enter the church.

So I can conclude, u hate christians and therefore CHRISTIANITY as a whole because of a few christians who currently surround your daily living(since u have no muslim or jewish frens) who pis*ed the he** out of u. I apologise for them.

And as y christian gospels are voted into in the Synod of Carthage in 397AD? Hmmm….its too long to tell u here…..and besides, u won’t be interested.

Agree with Joshua.

To add, God does not need us to defend Him. Just the thought of the numerous intellectuals all over the world who are Christians alone attest to the fact that there is a need for a deper understanding of what Christianity is before one can claim to understand the intricacies of it. The people cannot be labelled stupid for sure. No one can explain God, that’s why He is God. His Ways are over our ways, remember?

(btw, Joshua, I posted a reply to your earlier post but you’ll have to wait for Mr Moderator to release it).

Yeah man i m chilling=)….i mean no offense but please, i dun feel good when someone insults my religion….i guess its the same for everyone…..and its supposed to be enshrined in the LAW=p

I have always wonder….though I think it is fair that you do not want to hold joss sticks….what is it that you can’t hold a joss sticks? since lying and cheating and usurping into a secular organisation is already not an issue.

If the new committee members value their belief system so much, they should do so at their Church and not at AWARE.

Polarisation of Singaporeans on race and religion (and even to the atheist) will occur if any one religious value predominate. Diversity is the reality of the day.

Human values and not religious beliefs should be the cornerstone for direction.

LOL

Read carefully. I am criticising people who follow the religion, not the religion itself.

LOL,

when they slap you, turn the other cheek.

When they slap that other cheek, show them your butt cheek. :P

Lying, cheating, ursuping……sounds like a military coup and the current political situation in thailand or perak! Hmmmm….no this is not wat i read…..they were voted into it….and the old guard did not even bother to show up to vote for the 1st GM…..shows alot on their “commitment” to AWARE….if not please give me another explanation y they did not show up. I do not see lying, cheating and ursuping in that they were voted in democratically.

And to your point in 114)…..ahhh…u must be criticising me and gemami then….. though we have nothing against u

yea yea…..my both cheeks are swollen and bleeding and my butt cheek has grown a “flower” =p

“If the new committee members value their belief system so much, they should do so at their Church and not at AWARE” : #113).

Speculation! Speculation! Speculation!
And who is responsible for this insinuation? None other that the bruised egos of the old guards.

This reminds me of the biblical story of Solomon where a mother rather give up her baby to save her, unlike the fake mother who prefers the King to slice the baby in two.

LOL

Following laws and rules doesn’t necessarily prove that you are moral. Exploiting loopholes in laws and rules for one own ulterior motives can be totally immoral too. And above that, it doesn’t prove that you are smart or clever or what…you are just sly and cunning.

119) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 3.55 pm LOL

Following laws and rules doesn’t necessarily prove that you are moral. Exploiting loopholes in laws and rules for one own ulterior motives can be totally immoral too. And above that, it doesn’t prove that you are smart or clever or what…you are just sly and cunning

Are u speculating they exploited a loophole? Which one? That they locked up the old guard in the storeroom so they cannot come for the GM to vote in such an important election???????

Still it does not change the fact that they simply could have set up their own organization considering how easily it is for them to galvanize the support of 100-200 members.

That would be the honorable thing to do.

“Wind beneath my wings”? She a Bette Milder/ Beaches fan ? This is just ridiculous !

Actually, they aren’t very well-read… Bette Midler has always been known to be a gay sympathiser especially having got her start in showbiz in a gay joint. So to use the name “Wind beneath my wings”… laughable.

Anyway, did they get permission to use Claire Chiang and Chan Heng Chee’s names? Did these people already agree to be part of her new project?

Geez…

LOL

Don’t pretend to be so innocent. They rally new members to sign up and then vote each other in. You don’t have to keep mentioning that the old guards have left such a big loopholes in their organisation to justify the coup. Immoral is immoral. That is my point even if it is according to the constituions of the organisation. But you know your values isn’t the same as the organisation.

Again, don’t just keep asking people to set up another organisation. It is like occupying a weaker country and then question why you are so easily conquered. Why are you sleeping? therefore I am right to occupy your country. Like I say, immoral is immoral. Then what about all the resources that is in the old organisation? They would have given too easily to a group of liars with ulterior motives. Therefore they have to fight!

josie is not a hero for disobeying the rules in her comapny. This is just the trait of many xtians. They think they have organised church support behind and they want to test the ground.

#124 WeiHan said
“Then what about all the resources that is in the old organisation? They would have given too easily to a group of liars with ulterior motives. Therefore they have to fight!”

This is something that not many people have questioned. The funds and resources, and the immense amount of goodwill that AWARE has accumulated over the years were usurped.

Can this be considered a very high level of thievery?

Does anyone know what the new team’s agenda is? Do you know for sure that they will imposed their Christian beliefs? Do you know whether they will deride all gays or not? Are you definitely certain there will be drastic deviation from the core values of AWARE?

The answers to the above is an emphatic ‘No!’.

So what have we been harping about? Over hearsays, I’d say. The people who claim to have the society’s welfare at heart, and I am refering to the old presidents no less, are making it sure that the new AWARE goes down with them.

Is this honourable? Where is the integrity? If they think the new members have been deplorable, then aren’t they worst than that by destroying the good name of AWARE just because they are out for the next year?.

Take the bitter pill. Swallow it. Re-group, re-focus, re-awaken and prepare for the next battle. This is not the end of the world but simply a very valuable lesson to learn. Learn from it and keep on your toes from now on and you will not be taken by surprise, ever again.

129) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 5.01 pm 128) Told YouSo on April 21st, 2009 4.48 pm 127) gemami on April 21st, 2009 4.41 pm

It is not Josie and gang peferred religious beliefs that netizens are disgusted…..

It is their religious belief that make them what they are and these beliefs are dangerous

Ahhhh….here we see again….religious belief….this guy just hates christians…and now he is attacking christianit as a whole as mentioned above . Wow….I thought u r not attacking our “dangerous” beliefs….wat a liar

The truth will prevail in the EGM. Watch out for it.

126) Told YouSo on April 21st, 2009 4.40 pm 104) LOL on April 21st, 2009 3.18 pm
96) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 2.39 pm

2. Once one of the family member become xtian, he will view other family members of different faiths like devils.

Another joke…..my family are not christian and i m……feel like laughing my head off…..I love my family btw if u dun noe wat i mean.

I am a catholic by birth, now a catholic free thinker, you have to kill me first to be a christians

Don’t laugh there are some truth to it, i seen it with my own eyes, one relative in large family would force her brothers and sisters to join her christian faith, everyday she would imposed her believe until they turn christian, worse still – force her dying buddhist mother to embrace christianity before she died few years ago and recently her father who died 4 months.

You be the judge is she crazy or not.

I feel sorrie for you. Her overzealousness have put you you all off and i apologise for that. Honestly, i do talk to my family about christianity, but i do not hard sell. I lay out the history, facts to them and let them decide on their own. No matter what i do, it will always be their decision to make.

This sounds off topic… but why is LOL in #133 apologising on behalf of someone he doesn’t know? Is this to emphaise the ‘us’ and ‘them’ demarcation?

And since we are off topic here (this is afterall the comment thread for Josie’s star appearance on TV), LOL, your approach to soft-selling christianity to your family members sounds really buddhist in nature.

Hi, I apologise for christians as a whole if any of them do that, cos i myself do not tink hard selling is right.

Yeah, i agree we are off topic but i was really pumped up by that outburst or anti-christian blah blah.

Hmmm, I believe sincerely, in a christian sense that it is not I that move their hearts but God. So maybe u can say it might be a “buddhist” approach.

CAN WE GET BACK TO THE NEXT POINT WITHOUT HATE SPEECH

“The truth will prevail in the EGM. Watch out for it.”

Nah, it’s not an issue of truth. Until the new group comes clean, or until someone tap their conversations or email, we will never know for sure.

What will happen in the EGM is that we will see a fairer representation of what kind of organisation women want as their spokesperson. And how much they really care to take time out to be there. I’m not saying the Old Guard will win. But I do believe many people share the same unease over this whole incident to sit up and take notice, and be counted, whatever your stance is.

And it’s a good thing because for far too long we have always believed politics to be only the exclusive domain of politicians. Whether you are conservative or liberal or moderate, participation is the surest way to guarantee and promote democracy. And last I heard, many people have been galvanized. AWARE may wanna book the Suntec Convention Centre for the EOGM.

Come to think of it, in an ironic way, Josie and co. are indeed doing God’s work.

#136 LOL

Josie and gang definitely has a lot to learn from you then. You hit the nail on the head!

135) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 5.25 pm Then are u sure all the members that voted them in are christians? Proof? And they rallied new members to vote them in? Proof again? And the existing members which definitely by probablity some or maybe most are not christians could have NOT voted them in if they feel she is not capable or have an ulterior motive. By drumming up the anti-christian rhetoric and connections with fundamentalism , the old guard definitely done well in inciting people like you who squirm at the sound of the word “christian”.

Fundies don’t need any proof or do you understand what is proof? People have been saying again and again…how can 5-6 prominent members all of the same church decided to join a national secular organisation all at once. You better don’t keep asking for proof if you don’t understand this simple point.

Hmmm the you dun get it….6 people voted themselves in??? Or everyone else?? So what if they joined that? Then they got enough “firepower” to drag themselves in with 6 votes? Unless aware is made up of 11 people, U dun get the simple point actually

U see this take over as an invasion, i applaud your imagination. As well as your aggressive choice of words, I see that u r more likely incited by hatred and one sided perception of christians in general rather by the affair of a takeover by a group of people vs a group of people who did not bother to attend.

You see it as my imagination. any proof? You are right!!! I am concerned about a group of fundies taking over a secular organisation and using its resource to push their own agenda. Don’t ask for proof. People have stated many times just that you can’t accept due to your own one-sidedness.

Yeah, its imagination cos u can associate that with invasion. U r concerned about fundies taking over a secular organisation and using it to push their agenda? ERRRRR….have they came out wif an agenda and they have used AWARE to push it? LOL to u. I am not one-sided, i disagree with the fact she broke DBS rule but erm….your assumptions without proof as proven by our famous scientific method is just theory

Ulterior motives??? Proof????? Have they put into any thing into action that is deemed unsecular yet? Yet u r judging them because they are associated with christianity.

Proof again???Please refer other posts. It will be too late to revert waiting for them to implement. It beg the question…why should we wait and see?

Oh ya….the above totally proves the point that u r one-sided that they are christians and u hate them for being in charge of a secular organisation. TOO LATE??? OMG??? U DUN NOE LAW? Its never too late cos u can revoke the law. If anyone hates the government, they can throw them out and change the law. Easlier than singapore’s politics

Your assumptions are nothing but assumptions. And they r preposterous ones too, incited not by reason but a burning anger to avenge oneself vendetta.

This is nothing new and I don’t intend to cover up my motivation. We are concerned that a group of fundies have taken over a secular organisation with full knowledge that the organisation values are completely opposite theirs. Don’t label me!!

Yea yea….same point as usual……fundies fundies fundies….yet they have not seen anithing or ani proof of secularism yet…….

What did they steal? U call a coup, a invasion stealing, NOT a democratic election. If u think they made a mockery of the election, win it back. Good for them if they call a EOGM, its their right.

Enough said.

Yea enough said. Period.

#137 Zefly

Okay I wasn’t too clear. Truth as in what the people really want. But yes, if not for Josie and gang, we may never see this in Singapore. I am impressed!!

141) Told YouSo on April 21st, 2009 5.37 pm 133) LOL on April 21st, 2009 5.13 pm

No need to apologise, you are but one, not all believers are mind in nature.
Like i said before you he to kill me first before i become a christian.

“Too often the church does not present the truth of what it means to follow Jesus
And we are trying to convince people of a promise in the life to come without understanding the expectations in this life
We tell people just enough information to convince them to choose Jesus, but not what the life after choosing Jesus will look like”

Very very wise and true… U r exceptionally correct in this.

Fundies don’t need any proof or do you understand what is proof? People have been saying again and again…how can 5-6 prominent members all of the same church decided to join a national secular organisation all at once. You better don’t keep asking for proof if you don’t understand this simple point.

Hmmm the you dun get it….6 people voted themselves in??? Or everyone else?? So what if they joined that? Then they got enough “firepower” to drag themselves in with 6 votes? Unless aware is made up of 11 people, U dun get the simple point actually.

No wonder you read some history and decide to just commit yourselves like that! I say 5-6 people from the same church joining unanimously point to a very possible scenarion of conspiracy takeover. Did i say anything about 6 person vote themselves in? 11 person vote themselves in?

Just read this from the Yawning Bread website :

“Now, here’s something the public does not yet know: The television station’s original plan was for a member each of the old guard and the new guard to be in the interview. Josie Lau objected vehemently and insisted they would not share the interview room and program with anyone from the old guard. So much for reconciliation.”

Erm… Josie…. that’s not nice….

I have a question.

How in the world did this ever get to near 130 comments?

My thoughts below:

Point in contention (1). Josie Lau and the Ex-Co are christians (fundamentalist or otherwise). Put in power they will use their influence to carry out their hidden agenda on AWARE.

I have a question. How stupid do you think the women of Singapore are? If AWARE pushes pro-christians/anti-gay programs or even something similar to FOTF, do you think the women of Singapore if they disagree will just shug their shoulders and take it? Are the current members of AWARE unthinking zombies?

Also, does the religion of the person running for any Office matter? Does anyone advocate only Atheists be allowed to run? If Josie Lau belonged to the Order of Jedi Knights would it have made any difference?

Point in Contention (2) : DBS slams Josie Lau for running for AWARE head but not Liang Eng Hwa for PAP MP.

Heavens! A company looking to make as much profits as possible lets one of it’s employees take up a position of considerable influence in the Government? Why in the world would that happen?

Point in Contention (3): The new AWARE ex-co initiated a power grab driving the old Ex-Co away leaving AWARE – an organization with considerable resources and influence – in henious hands.

Sigh. Does this even matter? Not to knock the good that AWARE has done – i’m sure many have benefited from their good work – But do they really warrant such attention?

Oh yes, i forgot that AWARE’s reach is extremely substantial. I can’t remember how many times before this AGM that AWARE has touched the lives of all Singaporeans. Everytime you turned a page in the paper you couldn’t miss an article on AWARE.

AWARE was responsible for Singapore’s GDP growth, High standard of living, clean sewage facilities, military defense and the education system.

No wonder this touches a cord and has generated so many comments.

I think someone mentioned that AWARE’s head could become an NMP. So? Is there really such a clear demarcation on this status? NMP Siew is doing a great job, i’m sure most might agree. But so is Dr Lily Neo. Do you think the people fail to see who has their interests at heart? And she hasn’t even warmed the AWARE seat for a month!

Why is there so much interest here? Is it the similarity to a soap drama’s plot that enticing?

Will someone please answer my question

Er…..as u said, its a very POSSIBLE scenario of conspiracy. Possible = may be true or false. Substaniate your arguments with more concrete proof.

Yea, i mentioned 6 persons……they must have poisoned everyone in AWARE including non christians to vote them him…..another conspiracy for u.

As I have said, my points have been substantiated by many new emprirical facts coming out. Now, they know Josie turn down an interview together with the old guards. Why is she so angry? Or she is afraid more critical questions will be asked and her ulterior motives exposed? Talking about proof….why don’t you proof that your god exist?

http://www.yawningbread.org/

Alex Au always did argue better than me and in the top two links you can see how he argued why it is all the more likely the coup was staged, and also why it is likely the new group has a questionable agenda.

Oh, and he is gay. So it’s up to you to agree or take it with a pinch of salt.

Next. It is of course all inference. Until the day we can look into an omni-present cystal ball, we will never know 100% what goes on in Josie and co’s mind except themselves. The issue is not therefore of being too hasty in passing judgement – the issue is balancing all the ‘evidences’ and probablities and forming an informed opinion. No one has seen an atom and yet we all accept that all matter is made up of atoms.

Also, does the religion of the person running for any Office matter? Does anyone advocate only Atheists be allowed to run? If Josie Lau belonged to the Order of Jedi Knights would it have made any difference?

I don’t about the rest of your questions but I can answer this one. As long as your value system is aligned with the organisation, you will have any problem no matter what your religions. The problem is with fundamentalist. If you think logically, you can almost conclude that fundamentalist should be excluded and they can just plainly write that in their constitution. Sound funny? laugh all you want but think carefully.

“Also, does the religion of the person running for any Office matter? Does anyone advocate only Atheists be allowed to run? If Josie Lau belonged to the Order of Jedi Knights would it have made any difference?”

No, it doesn’t, and shouldn’t matter. But if the person who is the head of the Anti-smoking Lobby happens to also own a tobacco plantation, I would be most worried.

142) Ohnani on April 21st, 2009 5.54 pm

So you are telling us, that Josie and gang are truthful, above board and sincere and what was said in the interview was gospel truth!

Next. It is of course all inference. Until the day we can look into an omni-present cystal ball, we will never know 100% what goes on in Josie and co’s mind except themselves. The issue is not therefore of being too hasty in passing judgement – the issue is balancing all the ‘evidences’ and probablities and forming an informed opinion. No one has seen an atom and yet we all accept that all matter is made up of atoms.

This is the problem with some fundies. They imagine that they have proven their version of interpretation of truth absolutely and therefore no empirical facts that will be discovered later should be taken into account. And some still have the chic to ask for proof. They don’t know what is taking new evidences and empirical facts into reasoning.

LOL- Whats wrong with you? I think Weihan brought some valid points in his comment. He is not critising the religion but some of the people who follow.

There are 2 sides to a coins. While it is easy to “ask” for proof to verify their claims, likewise do you have any proof to say there it was never a plot.

How Josie and the new members were elected and the manner they got in remain a question. Who knows they themselves might end up facing the same music one day. For a strong believer in his/her religion, we will be judged on our actions after life.

While we are divided here, i say let AWARE sort out their own problems. The coming EOGM will decide the future for this organisation.

139) Ohnani on April 21st, 2009 5.54 pm
“Oh yes, i forgot that AWARE’s reach is extremely substantial. I can’t remember how many times before this AGM that AWARE has touched the lives of all Singaporeans. Everytime you turned a page in the paper you couldn’t miss an article on AWARE.”

So why are you here in this site penning quite a no. of posts already – some pretty lenghty ones indeed. So is it Joxxx OR AWXXX that has touched you lives ?.

To Law:
I believe the moderator has moderated his comments.
He said his fight is not against christianity as stated but certain christians in 114) but look at the following

127) LOL on April 21st, 2009 5.09 pm
129) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 5.01 pm
128) Told YouSo on April 21st, 2009 4.48 pm
127) gemami on April 21st, 2009 4.41 pm

Told YouSo: It is not Josie and gang peferred religious beliefs that netizens are disgusted…..

WeiHan: is their religious belief that make them what they are and these beliefs are dangerous

LOL:Ahhhh….here we see again….religious belief….this guy just hates christians…and now he is attacking christianit as a whole as mentioned above . Wow….I thought u r not attacking our “dangerous” beliefs….wat a liar

And also u r rite, i need proof…but u are the accuser and hence have the burden in the court of law to accuse me which means u have to have proof. THEN i need proof to refute that.

I have no arguments against you by the way, i tink its WeiHan 1 man solo vendetta against christianity. Look at the above in 141: Prove God? HA! He is out to provoke, not to debate in a civil discourse. His point is not to be contended with as it is totally out of this topic which the moderator should pls moderate else this news forum turns into a religious forum

144) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)

Yes. I too would be concerned if a tobacco company ran the anti-tobacco lobby.

How many people will have a health crisis if Josie Lau took over AWARE? If not a health crisis then what exactly would happen if she took over? How many people would die as a result?

Do you not think this matter has blown way out of proportion?

145) Told YouSo

I looked through what i wrote 3 times and somehow i must have missed that part i wrote on how i told you that Josie and gang are truthful, above board and sincere and what was said in the interview was gospel truth. Could you point it out to me? Thanks.

The only reason i wrote earlier was to ask why is this matter so important? That there can be 150 comments and counting. Did the old AWARE ex-co do such a fantastic job that so many of you are incensed that they have been reduced to just members?

And do members not have ownership of the club as well? To those commenting – are you members or do you believe the members are too lackadaisical to take ownership of this issue? Isn’t this purely an internal issue? Is the debate worth it?

Even if Josie Lau initiated her fundamentalist plan to take over the Universe. Can someone answer me what she is capable of doing? Is the post of AWARE head that powerful? Can she outlaw churches/temples/mosques that disagree with her beliefs? Can she convert all members of AWARE to her way of thinking? Are the current members of AWARE so easily brainwashed? Does she gain power of life or death to the gay community?

Is the answer is yes. I say let us fight her to the death here and now.

If not? Why the hell are you people arguing?

#150 Ohnani said
“Even if Josie Lau initiated her fundamentalist plan to take over the Universe. Can someone answer me what she is capable of doing? Is the post of AWARE head that powerful? Can she outlaw churches/temples/mosques that disagree with her beliefs? Can she convert all members of AWARE to her way of thinking? Are the current members of AWARE so easily brainwashed? Does she gain power of life or death to the gay community?”

Actually many of the past presidents of AWARE have become NMPs. Imagine if Josie becomes one. And we thought that we would finally have some peace now that Thio Li-Ann is gone.

Can she convert all members of AWARE to her way of thinking? She might. I’m pretty sure she will try. Afterall, the newspaper article last weekend did report that she told her subordinates/collegaues at work that the best place to find a husband is at church. Doing such a thing at work says a lot about her professionalism. So what more at AWARE. Go figure.

Anyway. More facts and analysis has emerged after the TV interview. Maybe we should all go have a look at that post here in TOC before making any more comments in this thread.

“Did the old AWARE ex-co do such a fantastic job that so many of you are incensed that they have been reduced to just members?”

Have the new members done anything yet. Not incensed but just to let you know for every point you have made, there is an equally valid point at the other point.

“To those commenting – are you members or do you believe the members are too lackadaisical to take ownership of this issue? Isn’t this purely an internal issue? Is the debate worth it?”

Do you need to be member to comment or whatever you have in mind. are you a member also. so do you think the debate is worth it ? why else are you doing it here?

“Is the answer is yes. I say let us fight her to the death here and now.

If not? Why the hell are you people arguing?”

Luckily in this world, no one needs to be guided by your parameter of having to fight to the grave end.

Why are you arguing also and showing your anger ? no ?

With Aware… Fundamentalist will have official cover to push their version of sex education in schools. They also have a platform to a NMP position in parliment… 3 past aware presidents have been NMPs…..

I guess non of their supporters have the intellectual honesty to admit that its really really hard to believe that they go to the same church and yet they claim not to know each other.

I can’t help to smell the stench of double standards coming from the “right”.

They’re allowed to take over a NGO to push forth their beliefs, write letters to denounce homosexuals and their lifestyles. But when they do that, we’re not allowed to criticize them and denounce their discriminatory comments?

It is their right to have their beliefs and to practice them, but when they bring them out into the open and try to force it onto others. They have to be prepared to defend their beliefs and not resort to using religion as justification.

Should we be expecting crusaders knocking at our door to slaughter us because we’re disbelievers?

They’re allowed to swing their fists at our faces and we’re not allowed to do the same to them?

Social stability requires the consensus among a society, that we all have a right to live the way we wish to as long, as it does not cause harm or inconvenience to others.

The law should not be protecting religion from the people.
The people be protected by the law from religion.

Dear Gemina

I have only one question on reading through the posts which I hope u can answer. A Contest of ideas should be played out in the context of a vibrant civil society space, a liberal pro equality, pro abortion, pro sex education AWARE alonside a Women Focus on Faith type org led by Josie bin Ladin, Pro family, Pro Life , Pro Abstinence etc, I have no problems with that, what I have a problem with is one section trying to take over the other whilst blithely insulting our intelligence and denying it to the core

Society benefits from a healthy active diverse civil society space. However respect for each others views and ideological leanings means that one does not take over an existing society with views contrary to one’s own views in order to better push one’s own agenda. That is disgusting and despicable.

That is now a call that the two camps within AWARE should compromise. What sort of crap is that ? If that bunch of Christian Women joined a Muslim Women welfare organization and staged a similar putsch, the ISD would be arresting and questioning every single one of those idiots. Certain views are so fundamentally apart that they cannot logically exist within the same organization. Pro Life and Pro Choice for example Abstinence vs Condoms etc. There is space enough within Singapore for both but not within one small org.

So why are you denying, the right for AWARE to exist based on the views it fundamentally believes in because a bunch of right wing pentacostals believed in taking it over and reforming more to its wishes ? What is wrong with setting up a parallel Focus on Family org calling it say Focus on Women ? Why set up a putsch in the most despicable way possible and then denying it and insulting our intelligence

Locke

hi acidrush #153,

I totally concur with you on this. I am very wary of Christian fundamentalists hijacking our Parliament. Singapore cannot become a Christian nation in the Muslim part of Southeast Asia. Moreover, there are also other religions practised in Singapore and as we know, even the Bible speaks against the worshipping of other Gods other than the Christian God.

151)dear Ohnani, why are you showing your anger :

Anger? I’m afraid you are mistaken there. It’s more of my frustration at being unable to understand why this matter warrants so much attention.

“Have the new members done anything yet. Not incensed but just to let you know for every point you have made, there is an equally valid point at the other point.”

Yes i concede this point to you. Your counter (to my question about whether it is because of the extremely good job the old ex-co have done that such a reaction to their ouster has happened) that the new ex-co hasn’t done anything in the less than 2 weeks in office is extremely valid. How can the new ex-co ever compare to the old one based on current evidence. Good valid point there. I would have preferred it though if you had just answered my question.

“Do you need to be member to comment or whatever you have in mind. are you a member also. so do you think the debate is worth it ? why else are you doing it here?”

I am not a member and i don’t know. You see how i’ve been asking questions? I seek to understand why this matter – at least to me – has been blown way out of proportion.

Luckily in this world, no one needs to be guided by your parameter of having to fight to the grave end.
Why are you arguing also and showing your anger ? no ?

I didn’t expect you to take me literally so i shall revise my comments. I failed to realise that perhaps you would have a problem understanding figures of speech. I apologise and shall endeavour to explain to you in terms put as simply as i can so that you can understand.

What i meant and i hope you are following me is that if she possessed such powers then i would have understood such a response and debate. I too would vehemently be against her appointment.

Is my entire answer simple and clear enough for you (151) to understand?

Hi everyone,

I am curious, why is there such a strong debate about Christianity vs gays?

As an apathetic bystander, i like to delve deeper into the perceived actions of the previous President.

I feel that the true issue here is not so much to how good or evil Christianity or homosexuality may be.

The point of contention however is that the previous EXCO upon losing are not happy, and they use such “hot” topics to garner attention and support for their cause.

I wonder why then are we merely staying on the surface of the real problem at hand.

Christians or not, i believe that Josie has won the elections fair and square. You cannot blame the previous commitee for having a poor showing. Why cant Josie, irregardless of her religion make a positive difference through AWARE?

I feel that this should NOT be an issue of Christianity vs homosexuality. Thats just an excuse to sensationalize this piece of news by the MSM and the previous EXCO for losing.

I feel that this incident is something too trivial to upset the civic peace we have in Singapore. I believe many people will capitalize on this opportunity to promote their own agendas which is rather disturbing.

LOL:Ahhhh….here we see again….religious belief….this guy just hates christians…and now he is attacking christianit as a whole as mentioned above . Wow….I thought u r not attacking our “dangerous” beliefs….wat a liar

Of course lah, it is some of your beliefs that mold your behaviours. And there is nothing to cover up here. We are talking about certain fundy group pushing their beliefs into a secular organisation. Only you are thinking that it is an issue of a group taking over another group.

Ahhh….so u admit in attacking christianity as a whole…..so……no christians should be part of government, no christians should be in the police force….no christians should be in the army then….woohoo……YEAH…..

For your information, all of the above organisations are secular and many christians i know have places in them….and the scariest part of all, they be termed fundy by u soon.

I have no qualms u attack the actions of a person but NOT the whole organisation that she is in ,aka christianity. So by attacking christianity beliefs in a news forum, are u trying incite everyone to hate christianity and their dangerous beliefs and henceforth christians? Do u think you are inciting hate and anger against christianity beliefs and christians by all your above statements? No?

sorrie i was to #15….i wanted to type #159 =p

To #160,

Stop hiding fundamentalists under the label Christians. Separate the black sheep from the rest.

A Tan,

Your post set of another random chain of thought. No, it wasn’t about the rather unappetising mental image of Ms Lau wearing balls.

AWARE is not a for-profit organisation, not withstanding the need for fiscal responsibility and the complete organs of organisation which they share with any other relatively large organisations.

We in Singapore applaud people for qualities of leadership, decisiveness and political shrewdness, academic prowess, business acuity; but we very rarely, especially where it counts the most, evaluate the morals and values of these persons. Too “touchy-feely”. No place for these in the business context.

But even in the US, today, excessively Machiavellian behaviour in the commercial arena is proven once again to be detrimental to the greater good. I do not say “proven” and “once again” lightly – this last crisis wasn’t the first, the danger of such a value system has always patently obvious; it just isn’t easy to quantify, we have all deliberately eaten up all the lip-service presented in company mission statements and advertisement copy.

We applaud and elevate these people, only to express surprise and chagrin when they later take us for a ride.

I feel this way about our political leaders as well. The joke is indeed on us.

That is why I say they are sly. Fundie hiding behind the name of christian. And he don’t think. When did I attack christianity as a whole? He kept hoping to poof (the word he like most) that I did so. Like I said before, there is no problem for people of any religions to join AWARE as long as they have their values aligned with the organisation. Yah….and then…AWARE can actually consider banning the fundies outright in their constitution.

Dear #157 Ohnani

I understand your deep concerns very much on why there is such ‘drama’ unfolding around this situation that seems unwarranted and exaggerated.

To put it in a nutshell: it is a battle of ideologies and the tactics employed by both sides of the debate to further their cause.

AWARE is doing a favour not for just women, but for all civil society organisations in general. If the new exco indeed does not share AWARE’s values, then a vote of no confidence is indeed the right thing to do.

And for all of you who have not been following the news, there is very much reason to suspect whether they even know AWARE’s values and programmes at all (Josie Lau could not even name a programme of AWARE’s in her interview!)

Regarding your point that no one will die from the new ExCo, that is completely true. But we are at a point in civilisation where we are not talking about life and death, but quality of life.

Females in Singapore enjoy an education, careers, legal rights, voting rights, to name a few. Reverse 100 years ago, women would have NONE of these. AWARE is about fighting discrimination against women and how they are viewed/stereotyped/stigmatised in society.

This is backdropped against thousands of years of female oppression, where religions have been (and, in the case of Christian fundamentals, still is) a major supporter of such female discrimination. This is tough and harsh fact to accept; and it is not that religions are wrong, because religions have progressed very much since.

Those of you who haven’t, go to the COOS website and look under their ‘pro-family’ tenets: it states that women are subject to their husbands, and have four rules – marry, give birth to children, guide the house, and not to blame her husband.

And if 5 of the 9 members attend the same church, whose values very much contradicts AWARE’s in many ways (pertaining to sexuality, abortion, abstinence or marriage, just to name a few) then don’t we have a cause to be very concerned that people are despicable enough to take over organisations and promote the values of their own religion via piggybacking on a credible cause?

It is counter-progressive!

So if you are a woman who has an education, a job, a husband – THIS ALREADY CONCERNS YOU. If you are a man who knows such a woman, this very much concerns you too.

(and isn’t it ironic that josie and gang are tainting the values that allow them to enjoy the life they enjoy now? and promoting a point of view that, for thousands of years, have deprived women from the simplest essentials for a dignified life?)

164) WeiHan on April 21st, 2009 9.18 pm That is why I say they are sly. Fundie hiding behind the name of christian. And he don’t think. When did I attack christianity as a whole? He kept hoping to poof (the word he like most) that I did so. Like I said before, there is no problem for people of any religions to join AWARE as long as they have their values aligned with the organisation. Yah….and then…AWARE can actually consider banning the fundies outright in their constitution.

Well, if u put it that way, u wouldn’t have asked me to prove God would u? Aren’t u attacking the principle of christianity? Look at point 106 and 127….what r u refering to? U question about christianity, not about the person, aka, “whether the bible is politically motivated”, and also the “religious beliefs”

I have no bone to pick with anibody….If u read WeiHan’s above posts about his dealings with certain christians, u will know wat i mean.

LOL,

relak leh. There really isn’t a need to take it so personally. You are just reinforcing his perception.

158) iliveinuk on April 21st, 2009 8.38 pm

Whether the current EXCO won the elections “fair and square”, or if the previous AWARE EXCO are sore losers, or whether they are justified in seeking to regain control of the organization via EGM, are spurious issues.

“Why can’t Josie, irregardless of her religion make a positive difference through AWARE?” Based on what we have seen and heard from the protagonists thus far, the neutral bystander would find it hard to believe that Josie and the new EXCO would indeed make a positive difference through AWARE.

THE question is: is the takeover of AWARE a covert operation by a religious group to promote its agenda via the takeover of a civic organization?

I can understand and respect the divergent beliefs that various religions have on various issues, including that on homosexuality. However, I can not accept any religion to expand their public space through the taking over of civic organizations. If such an act is condoned, our secular peace and religious harmony will be at risk as other religious and non-religious groups seek to defend or promote their turf via similar means.

I agree that that this should NOT have be an issue of Christianity vs homosexuality, but the actions and beliefs of the protagonists has only led one to believe that homosexuality is the underlying agenda for the takeover of AWARE by a religious group.

Irrespective of your religion, get your wife, sister(s), daughter(s), nieces, female-in-law and relatives to join AWARE tommorrow en-bloc to remove the new gang of six and their narrow agenda. No place for this Taliban-type of leadership in AWARE.

One thing I cannot understand… Religious Fundamentalism is retreating in most of the developed world because of education (America is one of the exceptions because of the mixing of politics and religion).

Yet here are a bunch of highly educated Singaporean women…

I do not understand how they are able to make that leap of blind faith? How do they reconcil their education and their faith? After all one contradicts the other…

Ms Thio jumped to the conclusion immediately that it was god calling her name when she was leaving the room. How to prove that? Can’t it be some other spirits playing a fool with her?

You should read richard dawkins.

Acidrush,

You can’t understand because at it’s very core, fundamentalism has nothing to do with one’s relationship with God and everything to do with power.

Hi Joshua,

Yes that I can understand. For the leaders yes, but what about the followers?? Many of the followers are also highly educated… I mean I am pretty certain Josie & gang are not really the main leaders. The main players would still be behind the scenes…

What influences/motivates these highly educated followers????

Being educated doesn’t mean one is immediately capable of critical thinking – correction – I believe most people are capable of critical thinking.
But not everyone is willing to.

Because it’s just too damn difficult. Fundamentalistic organisations do the thinking for you. Paradoxically, my opinion is that it is not the organisation that makes one fundamentalistic, but that people who can’t deal with ambiguity go to such organizations.

Also, let’s not forget that what we call ‘education’ nowadays is really just an overspecialization in a certain field. An engineer with a doctorate may have never read Shakespeare. In the past, a person has to be very widely read, and knowledgable in many subjects before he can be considered educated. Not so today. What you call ‘educated’ men, I call literate specialists.

IMHO, I doubt many of them have ever read anything from other faiths beyond heresay. Hence the narrowness of thinking.

168) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on April 21st, 2009 9.54 pm

Hi Joshua, I am just erked by his some of his comments. I mean no anger towards him. Please continue debating…

Some postings are calling the new exco leaders “fundies”, “fundamental”, “Chrustian talebans” and so on.

These are just meaningless labels. At least they’ve got sound moral values, and not just some “progressive”, questionable values.

I’m sure we all agree that they are not in some covert operation to harm women in Singapore ?

“One thing I cannot understand… Religious Fundamentalism is retreating in most of the developed world because of education (America is one of the exceptions because of the mixing of politics and religion).

Yet here are a bunch of highly educated Singaporean women…

I do not understand how they are able to make that leap of blind faith? How do they reconcil their education and their faith? After all one contradicts the other…”

By developed world do you mean the WESTERN WORLD? Because South Korea, Japan, China and Taiwan are all deeply religious/ seeing an explosion is religious belief and extremely educated.

aiya i still have not decide to do lasik surgery or not.

i ask the lasik surgeon he say lasik is very safe.

i ask my optometrist he say hard to say all surgery has certain risk, have to weigh the pros and cons and decide carefully.

but 1 thing i am sure is i support the old guards of aware because they try their best not to have any discrimination.

“At least they’ve got sound moral values, and not just some “progressive”, questionable values.”

Just exactly what would you define as ‘moral’ values? The outward observance of purity? Monogamy? Piousness? Regular church attendance? Didn’t someone came along 2000 years ago, sat with prostitutes and tax collectors, quarrelled with Pharisees to show that what we narrowly define as ‘morality’ isn’t nearly enough?

Isn’t words like ‘pro-family’ and ‘pro-life’ meaningless labels too when pro-family is only defined as its physical composition (man-woman-child), and ‘pro-life’ as the absolute stance against abortion and euthanasia?

What about values like universal love and compassion, honesty and integrity that one should impart to the members of one’s family? What about pro-life being for making life for the other half of the people of the world bearable? Speaking out against unbridled corporate greed – because corporate greed is one of the chief reasons for the huge income disparity between the rich and the poor?

“I’m sure we all agree that they are not in some covert operation to harm women in Singapore ?”

The people who started the Spanish Inquisitition had the best interest of their souls in mind. Hitler honestly believed he is doing his countrymen a favour by killing the Jews. The point, as I keep repeating, isn’t about intent. The cartoon caricature of evil being a cackling despot hatching plans to destroy the world seldom exist in real life. Evil begins when one believes one can and should do anything, compromise anything in order to achieve a result that one believes is good for the majority of people – the sacred rights of a small group of people can be sacrificed for the betterment of the majority.

Josie and co didn’t rub their hands in glee with grand ambitions to take women rights back to the Dark Ages. They believed their vision is best for women, and to achieve it, it is ok to be a little bit below board in their methods. They lied to themselves that as long as it is legal, it is moral. And there isn’t that much difference between outright lying and with-holding facts.

Which is all the more worse because a liar who lies intentionally knows he is committing wrong. Someone who commits the act of self-deception and justification of the act being within legal means believes he is still righteous.

And the most dangerous evil is a man or woman who believes in his inerrant righteousness.

Bottomline is still “what if?”

What if your thinking of the new team is wrong? All the things said about them being the super-duper Christian, the super-heterosexual woman who scorns upon gays; who wants to conquer the world and Christianize it, and de-gay it?
Sure these are possibilities but they remain just that – possibilities.

What if they are nowhere near all these fears being thrown about? What if they just wanted to bring the core values of AWARE back into the running of the society?

What if they are nowhere near what you lot, the old guards included, make them out to be?

Having said that, it is good to ponder a bit and consider, did not the old AWARE started out being a society that looked after the needs of women?
Did gay issues and the fact that they each had their own religion played a part in the running of the old AWARE?
Can you say for sure they were not influenced by their religious beliefs and sexual inclinations?
Did anyone question them the way the new team are being questioned, when the old AWARE took issue with anti-gay views?

Mind you, the majority of people the world over are straight, very straight. It is the few crooked ones that are distorting everything and causing the imbalance the world over, and no less here.

25 years down the road and you see what they are championing for? Issues that has nothing to do with the majority of women, the non-gays.

Is this not a good enough reason to bring back some sense to the old guards? Is this not reason enough to get back to basics? Is this not reason enough to take hold and take charge. Like it or not, change comes in many forms but we must allow change to take the first step in order to comment whether the chage was good or not.

Hi lockeliberal & Joshua,

I posted replies to your comments. You’ll have to wait for them to be released :)

Why didn’t the CNA editor or the so-called editorial consultant ask the most obvious quesion: “Why did you and/or the other members of the new exco just form your own woman’s group?” ?

Wah! Got invoke MM! So potitically astute. Appoint him as Honorary Advisor/Mantor (HAM)?

157) Ohnani on April 21st, 2009 8.30 pm

How about post 165) yw on April 21st, 2009 9.36 pm who has provided a good answer to your own post 157). such long noisy controversy does not come about for no reason.

good luck. by the way, now i know that you are not angry but frustrated.

How many Christian Women follow God’s Advice and Bear a Child for Singapore!
Any data to proved! LKY would be very happy! Come on we live in secular, realistic Society and had to pay some much bills before going heaven or hell.

Let not made hell on earth! Think is better get religion out of TOC.

Josie’s coup attempt was successful and crudely took care of the old guards. Now she appears on TV to ask for reconcillation? ha ha ha

And now old guards trying to oust her again using memberships and calling for another meeting.

This is the biggest joke or comedy this year. Let us just shut down AWARE and let it rot. A character like Josie running AWARE? You want it?

Dearest gemani,

You have been posting very furiously on these boards, and whilst your investment in this debate is very commendable, I would like to urge for you to look beyond what you believe is truth.

I am a strong supporter of the old guard, and it is indeed unfortunate that over the years they have been being lulled into a sense of complacency and have not been moving as fast as they should have been. They have been growing inefficient, I give you that.

Their values, however, have remained sturdy. Please take some time to do research on the values of AWARE for the last 24 years, and take some time to do research on the value of the church that Josie and gang come from (this is a huge factor that you cannot deny. You yourself have been allowing your staunch religious background to colour how you view the situation. its inevitable isn’t it?).

AND THEN, you need to do research on the women’s rights movement, also known as women’s suffrage. Read my post #165 if you will, but don’t forget to do your work too. In fact, this goes for everyone who has the gall to say that the new guard is justified in what they do. What they are doing IS legal, but it still is NOT RIGHT (does religion not teach the same thing?). When you grow up, maybe the ‘grey’ quality of things will be easier to understand.

THEN, you take time to formulate your rebuttal on the following:
1. The principle of non-discrimination has been a key tenet of AWARE. Lesbians are women too. How do you reconcile such a basic value that AWARE has striven to perfect over the years?
2. You are impressed by Josie’s ability to formulate a new programme so quickly. But just what is the relevance of this programme ‘wind beneath my wings’? I find it an utter insult for her to say AWARE has not been doing relevant work and then have her suggest this programme which has such a limited reach and does little in eliminating discrimination. (and kudos to her for the religious imagery by the way, I laughed.). What do you see in it?
3. As a continuation of point number 2, specifically programmes does AWARE need to cut back on to go back to basics? For many women in distress, AWARE has been a haven. Josie herself could not even name one of AWARE’s programmes during the interview.
4. In fact, if you will bother to do the research, you will see why AWARE’s programmes are so diversified. The economic crisis simply adds another dimension of AWARE’s outreach programme, because one will understand how other problems that its programmes address do not disappear and are long term objectives.
5. I also want to add that your entire perspective on ‘possibilities’ is very weakly founded. AWARE members have to be vigilant in protecting their values, and that is why they have been raising questions to the new guard and sought clarification. Sure, these are possibilities, but when the beneficiaries of the exco demand clarity, why is the new guard being so evasive and so laconic in their response? There is already overwhelming proof to question the motives of the new guard! If we are in a situation where we are still speculating possibilities, the exco is obviously not being transparent! A hidden agenda that they are trying to mask is a reasonable conjecture.

Lastly, your anti-homosexual remarks are at the very least stunning and hateful. Just because they are a minority group doesn’t mean they have less of a right to live in this world than you do: this is called discrimination. If you could very kindly tell me how they are distorting everything and creating imbalances in this world, I will appreciate it because I see many of them contributing to society in many ways. Their freedom to express their sexuality is a choice of theirs.

They are so lucky that they were not in Hardtalk or meeting with an interviewer like Tim Sebastian. Our journalists really need training on hostile media approaches.

Dear Gemani

You have resorted to mindless rhetoric and endless words to what avail and yet have failed to reply or answer the one simple question which I have repeated in threads.

No one disputes your right to have a xtian right point of view, no one disputes the right to exists in civil society. I am a xtian to as well and would fight just as ardently for your right to exists against gays if they ever protested such an a well lets call it Focus on Women groups existence

Why take over AWARE which is a feminist movement and which traditionally even in the west has been PRO CHOICE, Pro informed sexuality, pro sex education and thus pro women becoming lesbians if they want to. Why Why Why and do it under guise of stealth.

AWARE has not gone from its feminist liberal roots in taking up the gay cause. It is in fact being true to its principles. Go form focus on women if the xtian right is unhappy but do not mess with a secular liberal femminist org.

Locke

The more I read on this issue, the more concerned I become. I have been reading many posts not just here but on other sites as well and I see a pattern which is as follows :
(1) defend the power grab as legal – if anyone says it was unethical, then blame the old guard as “complacent”, “this is the real world” “you should have seen it coming” blah blah. But describe the old guard as sore losers or sour grapes for calling an EGM, although that’s perfectly legal as well.
(2) demonise the old guard – they are gay lovers, Christian-haters, immoral, lost direction, what have they done for women, never heard of them, no effect on my life and so on- but all without a shred of proof. Gemani, in his/her posting writes particularly well, the postings start off very reasonably and then the sly comments (all without proof) come in – #181 is a good example especially at the part where it states that AWARE took a pro-gay stance “Did anyone question them the way the new team are being questioned, when the old AWARE took issue with anti-gay views? ” Very well written, I must say, no direct statement, just inferences. (BTW, AWARE was neither pro-gay nor anti-gay).
(3) then if the questioning over the unethical tactics used or the lack of openess continues, gloss over it – aw, shucks, let’s move on (careful, PAP may sue for copyright infringement), for the good of women, let the new team show what it can do, how do you know the new team won’t do better…
(4) And if all fails, attack the poster – and various parties will then jump in. (#109 So I can conclude, u hate christians and therefore CHRISTIANITY as…). WeiHan got the brunt of it but he is tough and gave back as good as he got. BTW WeiHan, throughout my schoollife and working life, I too have many experiences of sneaky mealymouthed hypocritical Christians. I don’t mean in general, there are horrible people of all religions. What I mean is the posture they adopt to non-Christians or in pursuit of their religious beliefs – and no, I don’t hate Christians or Christianity, but some of the followers seem to think that they and they alone are the Chosen One. At this time, the only Chosen One is Jose Mourinho (just kidding ok?).
(5) Finally, the trivialisation of the issue – what’s the big deal – why so much excitment, don’t understand why there’s a problem, its only a catfight, don’t bother about it.

The last argument is the most dangerous – we must be bothered by it. AWARE is not a wealthy nor powerful organisation. But it is a civic organisation. Josie and the Pussycats are free to have their personal convictions but these should not be imposed onto a civic organisation and if for any reason, they cannot comply with this, then they should not hold positions. At this time, given their behaviour, I seriously doubt that this is the case. From all the facts, I believe that there was a planned power grab with an undisclosed agenda that is NOT the furtherance of AWARE’s basic principles. Circumstantial evidence, yes, but men (not sure about women) have been hung on circumstantial evidence.

One of the most interesting tactical moves here is to characterise the issue as a gay issue (it is NOT). This is very cunning as it distracts from the real issue which is whether a power grab with an undisclosed agenda is acceptable to the conscience.

Finally the last tactic is to accuse the opponent of the same thing that these people are guilty of – you hate us, you have a secret agenda, why are you angry, you are intolerant…

Scary, isn’t it?

Stunning post HT!

Fantastic summary of the cyber-christian counter tactics. I apologise to anyone who feels smeared by my description, but over at the mainstream online sites and here, all the strategies you outlined are very much in evidence. Only been here the last couple of days but I can even name the posters fighting the ‘culturewars’ or the ‘religious wars’. i even caught references to ” Dawkins and his gang of 4″ (apparently out to destroy the one true church, yawn) here, on this site. Amazing !

#191) lockeliberal,

I posted a reply to your question but it is still under moderation. It’s at #177 which you cannot see lah. The comments you referred to is in #181, which is not the answer to your question. Be patient and wait for Mr Moderator.

To the others who commented on my views, please be patient and let me work on your questions … so many … ;)

Hi yw on April 22nd, 2009 9.36 pm,

Very well written, clear and straight to the point. I was almost won over by your writings at first reading. But the thing with writings like yours is that I would always thread more carefully and read them again and again and again. So please allow me to try and share my views as best I could. And I hope TOC allows this lengthy reply ;)

They have been growing inefficient, I give you that.

This is the reason for their downfall isn’t it? This is the effect of inefficiency and the only answer that we need to hear and keep in mind. The rest are just the pre- and post-causes that had created the effect, or, the effect that it will be creating. And I think that’s all to it.

I will indulge you with the rest of your comments since you took so much trouble to share them.

You asked me to do research on the works of AWARE for the past 24 years as well as on the history of COOS. There is no denying that AWARE has done tremendous work for the women of Singapore and the world over. True also, even if you did not mention it, that they have managed to gain latitude for the social standings of Singapore women. But what’s the point of filling the top layer of a basket with fresh apples when those below are left untouched and rotting? This is the ‘inefficiency’ and ‘lack of speed’ which you talked about, the cause that created the effect.

Bearing in mind that to answer your list of questions would take up space beyond what TOC can provide in one post, I shall try to present my case while at the same time attempt to answer all your questions at the same time.

You talked about the values of COOS, about women’s right movement, about discrimination and about the legality of the elected team. I appreciate the diverse points of consideration in your argument. Let me address them.

1. COOS: In your post #165, you brought to our attention the 4 areas pertaining to the issue of a Christian woman and her behaviour.

2. Wind Beneath My Wings: We speculate no end what this program is, ignoring what Josie tells us on national tv that this will be reveal in good time. How big or how “little” this program is, we do not yet know.

I would prefer to keep these considerations at bay for the simple fact that the old AWARE exco was made up of people with diverse religious and ethnic backgrounds, and for which the sentiments and views of the larger conservative community had been very much overlooked in recent times. If the liberals fear the tenets for women at COOS, then the conservatives would also live in fear of the same in an overly- liberalised team. It’s a case of either black or white isn’t it?

3. Back to basics: My reaction when I first heard this was, “Hurray! the mainstream woman is going to be heard at last!”. Why do I react this way? Because we are going to work on the ‘… gains which benefit families and society as a whole ‘ as stipulated in AWARE’s mission statement.

4. Long Term Objectives: Why then did not the old guards take the trouble to safeguard these programs? Why treat an election so lightly? Why let all these members who have been working tirelessly, side by side, day in day out, why let them down by such attitude? It places a big ‘?’ on how seriously they view their jobs, does it not?

5. Possibilities: I did not try to draw up a case based on possibilities. On the contrary, the many comments and insinuations by supporters of the old AWARE were arguing their cases based on this, the conjectures, ‘hearsays’ and ‘what ifs’. I was only trying to get them to see the picture without all these, the ‘possibilities’. Your ‘overwhelming proof’ theory is also another possibility.

6. Homosexuality: I have no reason to hate homosexuals. In fact I learned a lesson or two from one poster who goes by the name of Robert, a self-professed homosexual living in marital bliss for the past seven years. I like his honesty and I would surely fight his case if there is a need to – but not in the ‘take-the-world-by-the-scruff-of-their-necks kind of way.

It is therefore good to hear that the new AWARE will be getting back to basics. I understand that the tsunamic reaction is nothing more than a normal reaction when the status-quo is shaken, and shaken hard.

HT, great stuff you wrote!

To :(185) dear Ohnani, have you got the answer now

To (148), (152), (185), thank you for your concern. What you wrote was a little redundant in that it neither added nor took anything away from the conversation, but it seems important to you that my queries be addressed.

Thank you.

Gemani,

The gist of your arguments, if I may sum up, is that AWARE has strayed off course and address only the concerns of a small liberal segment of the women population at the expense of the conservative majority. In your mind, this has to be put right.

But you have yet to give a reason why it is far better to take over AWARE instead of setting up an organisation that addresses the ‘unaddressed’ concerns.

In case you think that this country is too small for two organisations that serve the same cause to exist, do keep in mind that there are at least two organisations which address the concerns of the migrant workers population here – TWC2 and HOME. Both have different approaches take deal with the same problem, and both complement each other.

Secondly, you use the example of the failure of the old guard at the elections as an example that they have a lousy attitude towards their job. WRONG. You may not be aware of the culture of NGOs around here. As John Gee from TWC2 has said, there is always a shortage of volunteers that most NGO will welcome with open arms anyone who join their ranks. There is a sense of camaradery within and between NGOs as a result of many of the same problems they face – shortage of resources, the need to depend on the goodwill of others be it funds or manpower… It is generally assumed that anyone who joins only have one thing in mind, which is to give part of their time for a good cause. Because there is a commonality of vision, in many cases, the members who sit in the committee do not worry whether they will be ‘replaced’ the next year – not because they are complacent, but a) because they are too busy fulfilling their roles and b) keeping their jobs is the last thing they worry about. For most, they do not desire the privilege of the position (because do keep in mind most of it is strictly volunteery – ie- no income) they do it because very few volunteers want the extra responsiblility beyond just being the ‘foot-soldiers’.

In other words, unlike the government, committees in NGOs do not work to keep their positions for the following year (in fact the constitutions usually do not allow members to stay on in the same role for more than two consequtive years). Committees in NGOs work because there is a job to be done.

I have had the honor to volunteer for one of the NGOs here. (not AWARE of course lol) I have seen for myself the sense of trust and genuine friendliness between members of all ranks that is so missing in many business organisations. In the absence of salaries and power, there really isn’t a need to fight or distrust each other.

One of things that Josie and co’s coup has done is to put a dent in this intrinsic trust that NGOs have between old members and new recruits. And that is doing civil society a great disservice.

So, before closing, I would ask you to answer again – why is it far better for Josie and co to take over AWARE instead of setting up an organisation that addresses the ‘unaddressed’ concerns?

this forum is totally a waste of time.

“To (148), (152), (185), thank you for your concern. What you wrote was a little redundant in that it neither added nor took anything away from the conversation, but it seems important to you that my queries be addressed.”

We do see things differently. So do most of the participants here. same goes to you on what you have written as far as our perception (yes, you may say perception only) on the new AW*** is concerned. and this thread is still going very strong.

of course, it is important that your queries are addressed orelse why are we wasting our time here ? whoever can convince better will influence better with all arguments laid bare for all to see.

Joshua,

But you have yet to give a reason why it is far better to take over AWARE instead of setting up an organisation that addresses the ‘unaddressed’ concerns.

I did give a reason but it is under moderation at somewhere around #177.

The simple answer is because I do not see the constitutional election of a team to office is a ‘takeover’ bid, like some of you do. Not yet anyway.

Don’t you think Josie’s stand on getting back to basic, implies that the best place to give back the voice of the ‘mainstream’ woman, is the only place where the original creation of a society to serve this purpose, namely AWARE, took place?

I also understand that setting up an alternative focus group may be the ideal option but come on, surely you and I know that in any organisation, where the democratic election of members into office is put in place, has in itself a purpose for members to champion causes that may not be in line with the opposing members’. Every opposing member has a different view, whether extreme or minute, and this is put to the vote, and the winner takes charge. Why did this simple process took a turn like it is now, you tell me? Where did the provocation come from? Let us be civil about this and take away all the preposterous assumptions and ‘possibilities’.

I did not say the old guards had lousy attitudes doing their job. If I had said it then I apologize without reserve. I was merely concurring with yw that the possible reasons for their ‘inefficiency’ could be due to the overlooked majority of ‘mainstream’ women. I did question, however, the fact that the attitude of the old guards approaching the election was something that was left to be desired. Here you are, representing women and all things women, and there you are, taking things for granted. Whose fault?

I know the focus have been very much on the new exco, but have you guys question the old exco how this could have come about? They have enough members to win the election hands down, so how could this have happened? They are now galvanising support, believing they would win the EOGM, and I know they will win it. Question is, how did they allow the new exco to takeover, or ‘hijacked’ them in the first place? You think about this and tell me how I would feel if I have these sort of executives representing my interests.

I fully understand that the old guards were seriously and sincerely ‘filling their roles’, but is it reason enough to neglect the most important annual event in the society’s calendar, the election?

I also agree with most parts of your comments especially about the dents caused by this chain of events. Tell me then, whose fault is it? Even if I were to stand on the middle ground, and agree with all the possibilities, the answer would be this, “that the fault lies first and foremost with the old guards for treating the election lightly and therefore failed the people they represent, and, that the new exco is also at fault for not seeking a softer approach.

Will this do? Who carries the bigger guilt?

Dear Gemani

What if the core values of AWARE are correct if viewed through a liberal feminist definition but very very wrong through your right christian viewpoint ? If the two are so far apart as north and south why why stage a take over , why seek to impose your values on an organization whose values are defined in a different manner. What if AWARE was not set up with a xtian right focus on family view point but with a traditional liberal feminist view ?

Btw the law society along with AWARE supported Sec 377A in 2007. Since there seem to be errrr enough lawyers in the clique who supported the takeover, you might as well tell them to take over the law society because IT to has strayed from its basic values.

The Law Society AHHHH but passionate as these women are they do know WELL enough not to alarm the government by taking over the law society right ?

How has AWARE become pro gay apart from supporting section 377A and one screening of a female bro back mountain. Wait I did not see JOsie organizing demonstrations outside Shaw during its run right ? Why are Josie and her pussycats also aware that there are lines not to cross but decided to pick on AWARE as an easier target ?

Tell you what scares me, Pro Family are code words for Pro Life and Pro Abstinence. Half of the letters written by Aware in 2008 on its website were in support of Abortion and comprehensive sex education. I cannot see you or Josie supporting that.

Btw do u support Abortion and Comprehensive sex education or is that to straying from errrr basic “family values ” .

Locke

Gemami,

When a group of committed people is out there, doing the donkey work, the hard slog of advocacy in a largely apathetic society, membership drives and annual elections can be sometimes become a lesser priority. Unlike evangelicals with their soul-count, they tend not to waylay people in public areas, pressing (photocopied, ha ha) membership forms under the noses of the unwary.

In the 1990’s I was involved in several civic organisations, including the SCWO and the green groups. Met and worked with about 5 Aware members, including one guy, over a year and not once did they even ask me about my membership status. It simply wasn’t an overwhelming focus of theirs. I wasnt interested in much beyond that particular project, though I admired and appreciated what AWARE was doing. Now that a lot of x’tian fundies have hijacked the organisation – your and some of your friends’ contributions on this forum were definite tipping points – I have joined AWARE and will meet you on the 2nd if you dare to come and put your money where your mouth is. Ever done anything for any woman civic organisations?

“Who carries the bigger guilt?”

At the end, all are sinners in the eyes of God. Two wrongs do not make a right.

Now, you kept pointing out the process of elections was put in place by the old guard themselves and they have themselves to blame. That is merely focusing on the election day itself.

You point out that during an election, there would be differences of views and the group that commands the most vote wins.

The issue hence then, is this – if there had been strong differences in views, and most of the new members joined three months before, did any of them say it out? When a member joins a group willingly, the natural assumption is that you would agree to most of the methods and principles the group stands for. If the new group a) feels that their principles are in direct opposition to the old, and b) they truly believe in the mandate of the majority, they would make it open prior to the elections, giving the incumbent time to prepare. Then would have won the election fair and square.

Now you acknowledge a very interesting thing – during the EOGM, that the old guard will most certainly win back the seats. That means, more people will support the position of the old group, now that they know that there is a contest of ideas and ideals. If I can push it further, the EOGM would be a fairer representation of what people want.

If that’s the case, shouldn’t that be said that Josie and co could never had the mandate of representing women and hence had to resort to subvertege to lead?

So are you saying it is right that if a group knows it will lose an election in a fair fight, it is alright for it to resort to ambushes akin to the bombing of Pearl Harbor WITHOUT a declaration of war?

Joshua,

Good points you bring across. Joshua.

Now we can move on to scrutinize things a little further. We have all heard and used every comment coming out from the old guards to vindicate their losing the election. It is time now to scrutinize the words uttered by Josie.

Would you allow yourself to ask why she said her priority is to “go back to basics?” Would you read further into the words, “to disagree in an agreeable manner?”, and that “AWARE has lost its focus?”.

These are telltale signs, clearly indicating to us that there had been discussions on issues, and that perhaps, these issues were never resolved but pushed under the carpet, thus angering and offending those who brought them up. So, again, we are jumping the gun with our accusations that they did not try this end, aren’t we?

If that’s the case, shouldn’t that be said that Josie and co could never had the mandate of representing women and hence had to resort to subvertege to lead?

This is the type of argument I am most against, to put one and one and take for granted that it will add to two. Sometimes people get mistaken by adding one-half to one-half and the answer is one.

She has the mandate for sure. Go tell the PAP that because not everyone had voted in a GE, therefore the result is not conclusive. The mandate to lead was given in terms of votes from those who cared enough to show up. Whatever theories that come after this are just that – theories.

Now the old guards are galvanising its troop to hijack this result. “Two wrongs don’t make a right”, you say?

To (198) dear Ohnani, thank you for telling me.

On what you wrote below:

We do see things differently. So do most of the participants here. same goes to you on what you have written as far as our perception (yes, you may say perception only) on the new AW*** is concerned. and this thread is still going very strong.

My stance on Josie Lau – I don’t know. I need more informantion and would rather not infer because of her background. I think someone mentioned something about men being hanged because of circumstancial evidence. Hands up anyone who feels this is the right way to do things.

Reading the comments it seems like most have problems with her religious background. Which i then asked “Does it matter?”

Josie Lau did say this though “Aware is a secular organisation. We are not there to push our personal religious beliefs. We do not discriminate against anyone of particular religion, whether you are a man or woman.”

I’m sure the members will not let her have a free pass if she ever did push this agenda. Which is why i’ve always thought Josie Lau’s influence was a little too overstated. Which i then asked about and (151) replied:

“Can she convert all members of AWARE to her way of thinking? She might. I’m pretty sure she will try. Afterall, the newspaper article last weekend did report that she told her subordinates/collegaues at work that the best place to find a husband is at church. Doing such a thing at work says a lot about her professionalism.”

I’m pretty curious about the outcome. Did her subordinates/colleagues rush to church after that to look for a husband? Does she have great powers of persuasion? Or is it just a woman sharing her successful experience of husband hunting during watercooler breaks. Is there something wrong with that? If she did it in a business meeting or coerced them in anyway i would then question her professionalism and maybe even sanity.

I feel labeling her tenure as AWARE President as fundamentalist is a tad premature. Same to labeling her tenure as anti-gay.

Frankly i think that judgement should come after actions. I lack prescience so i do not know nor can predict if she would impose her beliefs on AWARE or as you put it AW*** and women in general.

To yw:

“Females in Singapore enjoy an education, careers, legal rights, voting rights, to name a few. Reverse 100 years ago, women would have NONE of these. AWARE is about fighting discrimination against women and how they are viewed/stereotyped/stigmatised in society.”

As part of the Male gender, i’ve never thought of women as anything but peers. In Singapore, there isn’t much restriction for a female. Perhaps slow in making inroads into Parliament but the numbers are growing. Josie Lau herself is a VP of DBS. What evidence is there that she will regress the state of females?

Also i believe that again if she ever did anything of the sort, i’m sure activists like you won’t sit by and let her run roughshod over their rights.

My stance as above is – i don’t know. And i don’t want to be drawn into speculation on what she will or won’t done when she hasn’t done anything. Perhaps that’s the problem.

How did this evolve to be about fundamentalist christians and the GLBT movement? I understand the concerns but isn’t this all a knee-jerk reaction on what could happen?

Maybe my inability to predict the future has restricted my understanding somewhat.

The only issue i could see is that her unorthodox though legitimate way of taking the reins of AWARE. And that doesn’t warrant that much attention compared to the passing of the POA restricting civil liberties of citizens in the name of open society, the NEA’s responsibilities in the Geylang Serai case and where does the buck stop when Govt agencies are concern, the one day sentence of the editor of Shin Min and the questionable judgement of the judiciary.

Though i do admit. This is way more entertaining.

To (198) dear Ohnani, thank you for telling me.

I am flattered that you have singled me out for attention. Even to the extent of naming yourself after me.

“We do see things differently. So do most of the participants here. same goes to you on what you have written as far as our perception (yes, you may say perception only) on the new AW*** is concerned. and this thread is still going very strong.”

Brilliant riposte. I recognise the source from the old school oratorical style of “i am rubber you are glue”. Good job.

of course, it is important that your queries are addressed orelse why are we wasting our time here? whoever can convince better will influence better with all arguments laid bare for all to see.

I have never sought to convince anyone. Just to query on the importance of the issue at hand. I thank yw for her post at (165). It went a long way to furnish answers.

I thank you for pointing the direction to the helpful comment. Your part in the argument was immense. Of course you were the more convincing and influencing person when all arguments are laid bare for all to see.

Germani,

You said ‘This is the type of argument I am most against, to put one and one and take for granted that it will add to two. Sometimes people get mistaken by adding one-half to one-half and the answer is one.”

But isn’t that the nature of any deduction? Short of having Charles Xavier around to read everyone’s mind, the only way in which people make decisions about other people is based upon the knowledge they have, and whatever biases and prior perceptions they have. What we’ve been saying is based on probabilities. What you are asking for is a confession of wrong-doing before you are convinced. You take a statement that anyone could have made – “to disagree in agreeable manner” and use this as an evidence to plead that Josie and co. had been concillatory all along without looking into everything else that had transpired before.

I’m just saying, based on observation, and knowledge and experience of how people would handle different views in an organisation, (and many other examples which many people here have quoted) that the actions of Josie and co. is one which few people with a healthy shred of decency would do.

Next, I would like to bring your attention to your ever-changing position – first you argued there’s nothing wrong with their actions. Then, when it was pointed out by a few people that legal and constitutional doesn’t mean it’s moral, you switched around and pointed the finger at the Old Guard saying that everything started because they had the audacity to lose their focus and harp on gay issues. My point is still the same – IT DOES NOT ABSOLVE JOSIE FROM WRONG.

Of course, I would also like to bring your attention to a statement you made earlier-

“Mind you, the majority of people the world over are straight, very straight. It is the few crooked ones that are distorting everything and causing the imbalance the world over, and no less here.”

- that most people are straight and it’s the fault of a crooked few (which one who reasonably infer as gays) who want to create all these trouble (ie – the world was fine until gays arrive). Later of course, you retract your statement that you are against homosexuals when others took offence.

Now you are really entitled to your own views on homosexuality really, and that’s not something I want to pick on, so follow me for a bit more.

Lastly when I wrote two wrongs doesn’t make a right, you wrote rather teasingly –
“Now the old guards are galvanising its troop to hijack this result. “Two wrongs don’t make a right”, you say?” The point being that therefore my arguments are refuted. But you see, the point isn’t about a fight. It’s about a fair fight. If you want to fight, make it known. Give others a chance to prepare. Win fair and square. I don’t even see what’s your point about bringing up PAP because a lot of people would also conclude that their claim of mandate vis-a-vis the GRC system is hot air.

At the end of the day, my friend, I can only conclude that you defended the new guard chiefly because the old guard showed an inclination towards gay issues and causing further imbalance in this straight straight world, and when your arguments are tested and found wanting, you starting grasping at straws. But they’re just that – straws.

I rest my case.

Gemami:

The notorious gang of 6 are definitely not part of the majority of ‘mainstream’ women.

The majority of ‘mainstream’ women are upright women with a sense of righteousness.

Upright women know how to appreciate other women’s contributions to the society and womankind.

Upright women will work cooperatively and respectfully with other women for the betterment of women’s welfare.

Upright women will never take over other’s establishment in such a hostile and ruthless manner.

You said “the sentiments and views of the larger conservative community had been very much overlooked in recent times. If the liberals fear the tenets for women at COOS, then the conservatives would also live in fear of the same in an overly- liberalised team.”

What do you mean by ‘overly-liberalised’? To be inclusive of people of all backgrounds and respect diversity are threatening? Are you sure it will cause people to live in fear?

So finally, the truth is out: The staunchly chauvinistic lot (I’m sure you’re one) who are hiding under the name of conservatives are finally striking, huh?

Now, women’s intuition tells me that the guys are behind all these. Notice that Josie was stumped for words. The gang appeared to be waiting for further instructions from at least two guys behind them.

What is AWARE for? It welcomes open-minded gentlemen who are supportive of women’s rights and welfare. And it’s right that men can be members, but have no voting rights. So Josie and gang trying to give staunchly chauvinistic men voting rights? What are they trying to do to AWARE? It’s so clear here, isn’t it?

Up to now, they are not able to spell out their agenda, because once it’s revealed, they will be expelled from AWARE. And that’s the good thing to do!

The poor moral conduct of Josie should not go unpunished. I urge people to provide feedback to DBS about this appalling behaviour of their staff.

https://www.dbs.com.sg/contact/Pages/staffcode.aspx

http://we-are-aware.sg/

For anyone interested to know what happened from the Old guard’s perspective.

The arguments have now changed. Now the tack is “give the new exco a chance” “don’t be quick to judge” “judge them later when they have had time”. “we don’t know Josie – we can’t judge” “don’t jump the gun” (#204 Gemami #205 by Ohnani).

These are cleverly designed arguments – at this time, the electioneering for the EGM is in full swing. The new exco needs to mobilise the undecided and those who have not really followed the issues or who have not really understood the issues. This is an appeal to the innate sense of fair play found in most people.

But these arguments are dead wrong. The new exco have had their chance. When? Firstly, right from the time they joined AWARE, they could have shown the AWARE members their positions, their characters and their abilities and most importantly, their views and their criticisms of the existing system. They did not. They kept quiet.

Then after they won the elections (was it in the spirit of fair play? – u decide; but its cute when Ohnani describes it as “unorthodox” (#205) Ha. Spin baby spin.) they could have shown not only the members, but also the public what they were about. Did they? Yes they did. They excluded a respected ex-president from meetings, they sacked the committee heads without a single word of thanks. The president quit, saying that she couldn’t work with “stormtroopers”. They refused to disclose their agenda or their plans to members (only on TV did Josie give some generalities) and they have simply failed to answer the criticisms levied. It appears to me that there have been more than enough facts and circumtances to judge.

And again, at the end of the posts, there is again a sly reference to christians and gays -”How did this evolve to be about fundamentalist christians and the GLBT movement? ”

I have said before and I say this again : this is NOT an issue of christians vs gays – this is a red herring intended to scare neutrals and to galvanise those who might otherwise find their acts distasteful.

And then :

“And that doesn’t warrant that much attention compared to the passing of the POA restricting civil liberties of citizens in the name of open society, the NEA’s responsibilities in the Geylang Serai case and where does the buck stop when Govt agencies are concern, the one day sentence of the editor of Shin Min and the questionable judgement of the judiciary.”

Classic tactic – gloss over the matter (after the deed has been done), nothing to see here, come on, move along, move along. Yeah sure. If Ohani and Gemami feel that there is nothing important, would they be posting so much not just here but in other threads as well? This is important.

So people, don’t be fooled by these false arguments.

Gemami, give the new exco a chance indeed!
Putting three burly men at the premises, sacking the centre manager (an employee who had nothing to do with the elections) and changing the locks sure warms the cockles of my heart.
And you still argue that the new exco should not be judged?

http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/424471/1/.html

man im cancelling my dbs card as well!

lol. Josie Lau and DBS are the least of your worries now. I agree with HT. This new development sets warning bells ringing in my head. This feels far more insidious than a simple takeover and goes beyond gay rights.

Read in TODAY that death threat received by ExCo member. Check it out at

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/315756.asp
The police is now involved , is now involved. Those who are making baseless attacks on the new Exco especially on religion better think again and be prepared to be questioned

they lied on national tv that this was not a planned takeover. ;)

To 210) HT on April 24th, 2009 2.16 am.

And again, at the end of the posts, there is again a sly reference to christians and gays -”How did this evolve to be about fundamentalist christians and the GLBT movement? ”
I have said before and I say this again : this is NOT an issue of christians vs gays – this is a red herring intended to scare neutrals and to galvanise those who might otherwise find their acts distasteful.

Did you not read the other comments before today? I am with you on that this is NOT an issue of christians vs gays but what were is most of the rhetoric and outrage here about? Hate speech on fundies, Hate speech vs homosexuals.

“These are cleverly designed arguments”, “This is an appeal to the innate sense of fair play found in most people.”

Is fair play not important? Forgive me if i would rather not condemn someone before knowing the facts. Of course now that the facts are out with the Thio Su Mien interview. I stand chagrined.

“Classic tactic – gloss over the matter (after the deed has been done)”

Hindsight is 20/20. Without full knowledge of the facts of the AWARE, i would have thought the restriction of civil liberty for all citizens, the roles and responsibilities of govt agencies and the questionable decisions of the judiciary should take precedence since everything else was speculation.

As i’ve said earlier since i lack prescience, more information is needed before any judgement call can be made.

Since now it’s clear that AWARE’s agenda is mainly anti-GLBT, by all means vote for the old guard at the EOGM.

Thio Su Mien’s agenda of prejudice cannot stand.

Well, their plight receives no pity from me. Who ask them to threaten Secularism in Singapore? Religion must be separated from the State. Now that the police is involved, it is essential for the police to investigate the possibility of the Thio’s family association with the Christian Right Movement in North America.

Well, their plight receives no pity from me. Who ask them to threaten Secularism in Singapore?

Well, their plight receives no pity from me. Who ask them to threaten religious harmony in Singapore?

HT #210

Damn it you beat me to it.
“But these arguments are dead wrong. The new exco have had their chance. When? Firstly, right from the time they joined AWARE, they could have shown the AWARE members their positions, their characters and their abilities and most importantly, their views and their criticisms of the existing system. They did not. They kept quiet.”

I would like to add that they knew PRECISELY what to say (i.e. AWARE stands for all women, heterosexual or homosexual) to put the scrutiny to rest but went out of their way to avoid saying it. Proof? There you go.

Joshua Chiang #175

“Being educated doesn’t mean one is immediately capable of critical thinking – correction – I believe most people are capable of critical thinking.
But not everyone is willing to.”

Nice. Couldn’t agree more.

Lockeliberal #190

“…mindless rhetoric and endless words…”

I caught the intro of a creationist dvd once and members of the organization are taught “rhetoric” to “circumnavigate the intelligence” of non-believers. Staggering huh?

These may OR may not be real, but if they are, it just shows they had been lying that there wasn’t any hidden agenda-

http://singsupplies.com/showthread.php?t=26201

the police is involved now

I wonder how it is possible a reputable bank like DBS can tolerate such bad leadership skills display by Lau. Her behaviour and actions clearly shows disrespect and disregard for DBS. Her strong stance against homosexuality can possibly affects DBS’ image and created negative views against the bank. This matter has over-blown and attracting too much media attention. I personally have very negative views about Lau and the way her team is managing the takeover. Since she is still with DBS, this will rub off my view of the bank too.

My comments #207 “Now, women’s intuition tells me that the guys are behind all these. Notice that Josie was stumped for words. The gang appeared to be waiting for further instructions from at least two guys behind them.”

Oops, my intuition is half-correct. It turns out to be ‘at least one guy and one woman behind them’. By the guy I mean the husband.

All around me are familiar faces
Worn out places, worn out faces
Bright and early for the daily races
Going nowhere, going nowhere
And I find it kind of funny, I find it kind of sad
The dreams in which I’m dying are the best I’ve ever had
I find it hard to tell you, I find it hard to take
When people run in circles its a very, very
Mad world, mad world

Alamak!! I invited you to stay my house and you come and move, throw and change my barang barang. . Not only that you changed my padlock. After that you kick me out…. What is this? Where got meaning, you bluff 3 years old kid.

By martyring themselves, by screaming at the top of their voices and getting their trolls to echo it on the internet that there are gays everywhere who are persecuting them (militant gays who are jihadist indeed – that’s hilarious – can you imagine Osama mincing in high heels), they are trying to get all the people who are uncomfortable with gays on their side and more importantly to force the ambivalent Christian to have to make a decision whether to support them or not. That is why they are painting it in black and white – you are with me or against me – you are for gays or against gays. If you do not support me, the gays will take over SIngapore.

I disagree. This is NOT a pro-gay/ anti-gay issue.

The issue is whether a religious group can sneak into a civic organisation, hijack it and impose their religious views on it. This has serious ramifications for the society we live in. Everyone should understand that.

On top of that, they are just mean and underhanded people.

One more point to note – the fundies are not concerned with alienating the liberals and the neutrals (I hate to categorise like this but for lack of better words) and therefore now state boldly their claims. The so-called liberals and neutrals may posit nasty messages yes, but how many will actually bother to join AWARE and vote. They are just not that organised and by nature, don’t want to be organised – I don’t want a gay militant group telling me what to do either.

Whereas if they can force their fellow Christians to choose sides, you can bet your last dollar that they will get them willy nilly down to join AWARE and vote. They will call them, arm twist them and bus them down.

Any person who attempts to argue will be demonised as pro-gay and anti-family. With specks of froth foaming at the mouth, they will denounce reason in strident terms and speak of your children being attacked or converted by gays, to scaremonger.

Therefore expect the trolls to continue to paint this as pro-gay/antigay. Some will be be blatant, some will be subtle. You will hear more fantastical utterances of the ficititious gay invasion (will Singapore change its national colour to pink?). The neutrals will be puzzled and disgusted at this open display of homophobia but hey, the fundies are not concerned as to what you think. They never were.

[...] terms like ’supporting women’, ‘women’s rights’, etc. And then on the Channel NewsAsia interview when the new president of AWARE spoke of being ‘pro-family, pro-women, and [...]

70) acidrush on April 20th, 2009 11.46 pm

For the perusal of the many people who contributed to the discussion:
A poem attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller about the holocaust.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

Good men need only do nothing. And we’re all doomed.

Go back to your church and set up your own group! Don’t claim whats not yours and of no credit of! Shame on you!

josie lau the new appointed exco for AWARE simply looks like she was caught off guarded of the questions that were coming towards her. her stands for the organisation were confused and totally misleading through her replies.
she was quoted saying the body is pro-families, pro-women. i think she left out the term “pro-gay”.

the simple answer to womens diversified sexual orientation is not through gay beliefs, practices, or even people. god just happen to create women who like women

I think Josie completely don’t know whatz she talking about. She is lost……

Why do people hate Josie Lau so much?

For a provocative explaination, see http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/

Yes, I would like to know what Chan Heng Chee and Claire Chiang think about being dragged into this interview by Josie. I personally do not think that Chan and Chiang would like to have anything to do with Thio/Joise/Ong and Co.

Wind Beneath My Wings is Josie’s new theme for AWARE? Is she ignorant or just plain stupid. What would Bette Midler and her legions of fans say about having a signature song hijacked by these anti-gay bigots?