Excerpts from from Alex Au’s blog, Yawning Bread:
Now, about maturity in the blogosphere. Although the issue revolved around a militant Christian group seizing power over a secular organisation, the vast bulk of commentary have remained intelligent and sober -– and I would say this even of those comments that supported the new exco with opinions opposite to mine.
I noticed that The Online Citizen had to delete a number of readers’ comments, sometimes in response to other readers pointing out the offensive comments to editors, but that only showed community moderation at work.
If anything, it is the Straits Times that is less than responsible. It is not doing anything about online comments with no substance demonising gay people, such as these:
Ahkohahkoh (25 April 2009): All those gays in NUS, NTU and SMU should be locked up in prison, Changi prison. Fragment of screenshot.
Luvmibiz (25 April 2009): Why not ask the pro-lesbian group to a gay aware? Cannot? They have no right to start a gay society? Since it’s constitutionally illegal to practise lesbianism, then stop the bickering, you tofu women.Fragment of screenshot.
Charlllotte (25 April 2009): Gays are a deviant group. There are many gays in NUS, NTU and SMU. I am worried. Why aren’t they doing something about it? It is horrifying to find all these gays students in NUS, NTU and SMU. Gays are a deviant group. How can a mother feel safe to send her sons to NUS, NTU and SMU. Fragment of screenshot.
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I agreed that Bloggers are more matured and open than our msm. In msm, you get only selective reporting to their likings and instructions given. In new media, the whole populations are participating, there is no barring of informations, sharing of views and the sentiments are so much alive and not dead. If msm still do not wake up from their own lack lustre, everyone will rely soley on online reports in future.
Hi All,
The agenda for MSM is obvious… They have to go along the PAP’s party line, which is subtle acceptance of gays. So they will not censor such negative remarks on gays as they know most citizens are anti-gay.
To Alex,
Your use of the expression “militant Christian group” is too strong for comfort. You seem to have equated them to the Talibans. But unlike the Talibans, they have not broken the law or constitution of Aware, they have not killed or bombed anyone either. I can see your immense hatred for them though. No choice…they are one of your greatest enemies.
i think “militant” is not inappropriate–what is (has) happened at COOS today (from the beginning?) is really a “mobilisation” of manpower (womanpower) to support the new exco at the EOGM. it wasn’t a religious issue (ok, maybe implicitly) until it became one outright, and i’m really curious to see what the ST has to say about it.
I think like the Straits Times, most of these people posting their unsubstantiated comments never had their views challenged by others, or subject to critical scrutiny. It is highly likely such bigoted and prejudiced preconceptions are reinforced in an echo chamber of a community with similar beliefs.
From what I see in the US, most of these people will just tend towards extremist site like stormfront.org (or fox-news for that matter) to reinforce their worldview. However, they are rightly considered as fringe elements of society, though they do give the US a very bad reputation. My main concern is that Straits Times, which for most intent to outsiders is a window into Singapore, depicts Singaporeans as a bunch homophobic bigots who cannot form a coherent strand of thought. Seriously, those postings are what you would expect in myspace sites, and not from a supposedly serious establishment.
This article is extremely biased too. It is quite obvious that this article particularly hits out at the YJSL Group (“You Are Just Sore Losers”); it is far from objective in any way. Not surprising of course, since Mr Au is a promoter of the gay cause himself.
Yes, ST is genuinely lousy at editing, but it is hard to believe that SOG and LGF posters are all far more rational than the YJSL group. In all likelihood, there should be just as many inflammatory SOG and LGF posters as there are YJSL posters.
Mr Au’s article seems more intent on portraying how anti-gay the Government is, rather than the ineptness of Straits Times editorial capabilities. Or perhaps his faction doesn’t mind if SOG and LGF posters are inflammatory, because their inflammatory nature helps to advance the pro-gay agenda.
TOC should be careful when publishing these kinds of articles, if it wishes to remain objective. To its credit, TOC has kept a very cool head so far. Please, Editors, do not spoil it.
If the Straits Times is doing nothing about people demonising gay people, than it is also not doing anything about people who demonise anti-gays. But interestingly, Mr Au’s article makes no mention of the latter, perhaps because they serve his pro-gay agenda?
I find it hard to believe that there is only vitriol from one side of the fence. After all, the new AWARE exco also received lots of death threats. Whatever one may think of their beliefs, Death Threats are not particularly civil.
TOC has been objective and cool in reporting over the AWARE Saga so far. Let’s not spoil the record by blatantly publishing a gay activist’s (biased) view of any aspect of the situation.
Mr Au’s commentaries are usually solid and objective, except when it comes to those dealing with the Pink Lobby. So we all should be careful.
I think MSN is more objective than TOC.
You branded them as militant and anti gay
before giving the new team a chance.
Toc will destroy itself if it becomes self serving
And behave as moral vigilantes……
to #5 and 6,
please larh. someone says smth like this:
” It is horrifying to find all these gays students in NUS, NTU and SMU. Gays are a deviant group. How can a mother feel safe to send her sons to NUS, NTU and SMU.” – is it not irresponsible? is it not demonising?
the worst thing we would label josie is that she’s a liar – which is true. we are not saying she’s a demon, or that she’s horrifyingly creepy. note the difference.
i dont see anything wrong with TOC publishing this – most people other than rightwing christian fundamentalists are against statements above. i think the use of ‘militant’ is very apt too. talk about overthrowing the leaders to advance your own agenda.
well done TOC!
I highly doubt’s Yawning Bread’s objectivity due to his choice of words like “Christian Taliban” etc etc…..how is that related to the taliban??? Taliban do not believe in democracy and their process with killing, chopping off of limbs etc etc if u do not follow them and their law…..he is obviously very very anti christian just by looking at his pervious articles and hence already showed his biasness…..not objective at all
You are absolutely right, Mr Au. The comments I read at the ST site were so full of bile – as well as downright stupid oftentimes – that it totally put me off posting. I did n’t even know where to start in terms of addressing a lot of the erroneous posts. It dawned on me that the worst posts came from self -professed christians and it was a somewhat organised effort. You can see the same efforts here, on a smaller scale. But the challenge here to the bigotted is far more robust and the crazies are forced to engage in argument (after a fashion) which they lose decisively (some of them backtrack, sometimes in a less than sincere fashion).
How do you know someone is a crazy? Their focus is entirely on the “homo” aspect of the issue which is a BIG FAT NONSENSE. The ‘concerned parent’ pose is laughable because AWARE cannot hoodwink the MOE, the gatekeepers at 30 schools (full of conservative xtians, muslims and hindus) as far a pro-gay propaganda does. In fact I am writing to the MOE to demand an official explanation as to the contents of the CSE from AWARE. this is not because I do not trust AWARE’s explanation, but it is really necessary at this stage to have an official rebuttal of the fundies’ poisonous claims. If the MOE finds the CSE was really at fault, then not only AWARE, but our teachers and principals should be made to give up their positions to the fundies, and I will shut up forever.
All points are noted. But it is time to move on. Aware is a small organisation and smaller amount of women are running it- they have every right to disagree and they vote coming saturday for their way ahead. Guys cannot participate and vote even if they want to. Do not waste more of your precious time being distracted by Aware; there are more important national agendas like Geyang Serai, etc , to concentrate on.
If anything unpleasant , it is the ugly side of some netizens exposed as to be moderated. Despite the Seng Han Thong incident, netizens are growing up surely but please do not shoot yourselves, and do not give ammunition to the establishments to knock you down.
Before I start saying anything, I will state some details about myself… I’m a converted Catholic who believes that acts of homosexuality is wrong and abortion is form of murder… however I am also a firm believer that religion must be kept out of the legislative and public spectrum, a clear separation between Church and State, not because I do not practice what I preach but it is due to history that I understand that it is dangerous to allow both to merge as one…
To the Christian side, I offer u the quote Jesus made regarding Church and State, “Render to Caesar what belongs to Caesar and render to God what belongs to God”. Yes, we can say that things are immoral and wrong in the eyes of the Creator, but we must never enforce our beliefs on others… remember the Pagans? They subjected Christianity to 400 years of persecution, are we going to do the same to others who do not share in views? Are we no better than our persecutors? Homosexuals are denied certain rights, which would in no way infringe on ours… I have friends in those circles who are subjected to higher taxes because they can’t marry and that their relationships are not recognised in society… that is not an inclusive “democratic society based on justice and equality” We can still continue to tell our children that such acts and thoughts are wrong but we also must teach them that these people still deserve respect and dignity that every human beings does: the right to pursue happiness, even if we think it’s wrong…
To the other side, I do understand that certain elements in our circles warrant restraint and rejection, however I urge u that name-calling and angry rhetoric will not help… it is best that u read and understand certain beliefs held by us before writing all of us as hypocrites and intolerant… there are things we do not agreed with, but we believe such things can be resolved if we can understand each other and that both sides are willing to open up communications…
So please, do not go overboard with this… decades of work in this country has achieved much peace. Do not undo the results our predecessors achieved… no matter what faith or beliefs they held…
Hi all,
talking about maturity, we Singaporeans (myself included) don’t even have the vocabulary to describe what has happened here.
It’s called “Dominionism” You can read more about it here :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominionism
and how it relates to the AWARE saga here :
http://dogemperor.newsvine.com/_news/2009/04/24/2729992-a-steeplejacking-of-a-womens-ngo-in-singapore-a-rare-glimpse-at-how-joels-army-groups-work-in-practice
As a Catholic myself, I would like to draw your attention that FOTF has taken flak back in the USA.
Just google the words, “fotf dobson anti-catholic”
Here is one of the search results you would get -
FOCUS ON THE FAMILY SAYS ANTI-CATHOLIC SPEECH IS UNCHARITABLE AND HARMFUL :
http://www.wayoflife.org/files/66afd120e4fc3d98ab8aae9a98490537-240.html
Here’s another search result. The article desribes FOTF as Dobson’s “covert political advocacy group, disguised as a tax-exempt charity” :
http://www.democrats.com/node/4358
The same article above quotes another gem from American Senator Ken Salazar of Colorado :
“I think what has happened is Focus on the Family has been hijacking Christianity and become an appendage of the Republican Party,” Salazar said. “I think it’s using Christianity and religion in a very unprincipled way.”
Here’s another search result, taken from a Catholic forum :
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=48208
“Your use of the expression “militant Christian group” is too strong for comfort. You seem to have equated them to the Talibans”
Some people are so thick-skinned yet pretend pura2 malu. Got the thick skin to conspire to snatch away other people’s organisation and yet tak boleh tahan being described as such. Please la, not happy don’t come to TOC and kick a big fuss over names.
has religion overstepped its boundaries? deciding things in disregard for the gahmen and other religions? care to explain?
bloggers tend to take either one side or the other depending on their religions. i take the secular side because my religion teaches me to be nice to others no matter who they are. and i find this takeover significantly disturbing because this shows how far the state allows her upper class in singapore to wield religion to get things done. nothing has been proven about any party in this religious catfight. i hope the authorities can do something about this. i cannot imagine this spilling over to my life in the future. who i can pray to. will i get stoned for wearing skirts above the kness. can i abort a mutated baby?
Bible says gays are wrong. They must be removed in the name of christ. Gays are the major cause of our economic downturn and PAP dominance. Only the holy mother minister mentor Thio is the best feminist.. She rules.
The new Exco announce that they are anti lesbo, but are they anti homo?
Dun wan to renew my homo membership and then kena cancel.
http://www.nambla.org
Anyone know?
Thx.
I hope we can take a moment to get away from the AWARE saga and look at the religious factor that has been coming into the discussion fray in the course of this on-going debate.
The single main reason why there is so much squabble over Christianity is very simply the lack of understanding to what Christianity really is. Here we have on the one side, the group of Christians who had taken over AWARE, being condemned to eternal hell by non-Christians from the other side, for acting out their faith, yes, faith in their belief and faith in their God. I shall touch on the subject of ‘faith’ in a little while.
When I say “lack of understanding”, I am referring to both camps, the COOS saboteurs and the defenders of the old guards.
One must bear in mind when one speaks on the subject of religion, be it Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and even to a certain extent, Atheism (if we can classify this as a religion for the sake of argument), that it constitutes the component of ‘faith’.
What then is faith? It is the acceptance of something that is unknown and that which cannot be explained. Just like one entering a marriage. He or she does not know what the marriage will bring but are convinced that their togetherness will bring about a better life of happiness and fulfillment, both for the physical body and the soul.
In the religious context, faith is the acceptance of what the religion promises. In Christianity, this acceptance oftentimes equates to accepting teachings of the bible that one does not fully comprehend, for who can comprehend the Divine Being that is God. His ways are beyond and above our earthling ways, and no justification is required.
Now, before the non-Christians start their Christian-bashing campaign, I would like you to stop and ponder a little while and try to understand this perspective. There are some out there who have been bashing the Christian faith for the not-so-exemplary conduct of some Christians they encounter. It is good for people like these to ask why these Christians do the things they do. Why, for example, is there a need to proselytize the faith? Know that these are the ones who see themselves as foot-soldiers of the Lord – just like the e-mail from COOS calling its members to get behind their sisters for the Lord’s sake. They know they will get into trouble with the secular nature of society but they believe (faith) that God will see them through whatever troubles they may encounter.
God is above all else. Your secular nature, your belief in the non-existent God, your belief in other gods; the behaviors and teachings of these other gods – they will all be taken care of by the Almighty God, the Christian God of the Bible. This is their faith. Go ask them how their God will do this and you will not get a reasonable answer, because you cannot reason the reasons of God.
If non-Christians, or rather, the non-religious, can understand this, then it will in some way, go into the discussion process of finding a workable solution to most of the world’s problems. It is very much like breaking one’s tradition and culture.
Try, for example, telling a traditional Chinese family that it is better to have a daughter than a son and what would you get for a reply? Try telling it to the Indians to have the men pay the dowry in a marriage like most other cultures do and what will you hear from the man’s family? These are what we are fighting against and we ought to understand this.
For as long as you think the Christians (or any religion) is imposing itself, the same is true that the Christians would also think that the rest are imposing themselves on their Christian values.
This is not to justify the takeover by Josie and her colleagues because whatever it is, any lie cannot be justified by faith, but a simple sharing that I hope will go in some way to understanding why they do the things they are doing. Most importantly, why they think they are doing the right thing – for their faith, and their God.
I Posted an article – “The values that bind the social fabric of secular Singapore” on http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/
I sense the following questions are on everyone’s mind. Why not take this poll on http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/
Do you think the AWARE old guard and media is making an issue out of Christianity?
Do you think the AWARE new guard is promoting Christianity?
/// God is above all else. Your secular nature, your belief in the non-existent God, your belief in other gods; the behaviors and teachings of these other gods – they will all be taken care of by the Almighty God, the Christian God of the Bible. This is their faith. Go ask them how their God will do this and you will not get a reasonable answer, because you cannot reason the reasons of God.
If non-Christians, or rather, the non-religious, can understand this, then it will in some way, go into the discussion process of finding a workable solution to most of the world’s problems. It is very much like breaking one’s tradition and culture. ///
Gemami – good summary. For this reason, religions should not intrude into government and secular NGOs which serve all people – atheists, agnostics and kinds of religions of all denominations.
Hi T,
Agreed! Fully, wholly and totally.
11) Time To Move On Really on April 26th, 2009 8.58 pm
==>
This reminds me of the saying “Good men need only do nothing”.
Just shoving this matter under the carpet is the worst thing that Singaporeans could do. That would be tantamount to a silent stamp of approval on the actions of the unprincipled and blatantly discriminatory new Exco, setting a dangerous precedent.
Aware must not be the first secular civil group to fall, because if it were and does fall, it will not be the last. COOS will mobilise their flock of mindless sheep to overrun any others who disagree with them. Especially if they won their first fight with a walkover.
Freedom and diversity-loving women of Singapore have a duty to themselves to stand up against this repression of others hidden in “morality”.
May 2nd. Take a stand, ladies. For yourselves and your freedom, if nothing else.
Just to add to your point, gemami,
Because one can never fully fathom what God wants, it is very arrogant to presume that one knows exactly what’s on God’s mind even with the Scriptures. Only Jesus knows.
That is why the way for society and all it’s conflicting views and contradictions to move is through consensus. The middle ground. That’s what democracy is all about.
It is strange why nobody take issue with the all “Chinese” composition of the new guards and suspect “Confucianalism value” as the hiden agenda? Is’nt Aware supposed to be multi-racial too?
Instead of bashing at the new guards and their religious afinitiy I think the best approach is for all those who care about preserving Aware’s or any civic organisation’s neutrality is by joining as active members and dilute any bias influence that they perceived is going to take place. Aware’s membership is still open to all and sundry, right? The new guards have never indicated that they are going to change the constitution to “Christian only” or “all lebians and gays are barred”. So, why all the emotion? Go join and ensure your views are heard.
But events has blown out of proportion to become one of quarelling over a sensitive “moral” issue and “new guards” against “old guards”. This is really unnecessary and divisive.
Alex is not exactly the worlds most unbiased writer. He has an axe to grind. If it was the brotherhood press, then that would be another matter.
25) A. Tan on April 27th, 2009 3.18 pm
“This is really unnecessary and divisive.”
=> while it is true that it’s a very divisive issue which should not have occurred, I have to disagree that one can, in any way, reconcile and reach a compromise with the militant bigots that the new Exco has proven themselves to be.
They really should stop lying and be honest… and set up their own anti-gay organisation instead of attempting to destroy Aware and thus sabotaging the progress of women’s rights in Singapore. (they’re incompetent and know squat about how aware is run)
Joshua,
This is a very complex problem with no clear cut solution.
To put it very simply, one cannot imposed one’s faith on another, because he himself is what his faith makes him, which he himself cannot fathom enough, to lord it over another.
Besides the ten commandments which are direct and straight to the point, the other lessons that can be derived from the bible, and for which a deeper understanding and enlightenment can only be granted by the grace of God, cannot be imposed on another whose state of life is totally in contrast to that of the believer.
This is where the ‘love’ element comes into play. Your action must be the action of God, which is Love. All else carried out without love, cannot, and must not, be attributed or justified, to be the workings of God, or for God.
Josie had tried to justify her action by claiming to have heard the ‘voice’ of God. She did remarked that she felt that taking over AWARE was a calling she heard from God. This is surely not the way to justify her action. It has religion written all over it, and it is wrong.
From this perspective, we get the understanding that she finds her action on par with the action that God would have taken. Herein lies the danger and complication. How to talk common sense when one believes so strongly that it is her faith that is governing her actions?
To these people, God and His mysterious ways becomes an action that leads to nowhere in particular. This means that they will do what they think is God’s will and let the matter run the course of its action, believing that God’s guidance will liberate them and win over the pagans, the non-believers.
It will do well for those fighting the cause of the old AWARE members to reflect on this and understand what they are fighting against. You are fighting a belief, firmly entrenched in the element of faith. The more you lambast them and call them names, the more they think they are becoming martyrs for God.
This is your mountain.
“It is strange why nobody take issue with the all “Chinese” composition of the new guards and suspect “Confucianalism value” as the hiden agenda? Is’nt Aware supposed to be multi-racial too?”
Same here, it is strange why you do not take issues with the composition of the new guards. simple lah, they are your kakis lah. why should you take issue when your own kakis are inside. human define everything lah and find rationale / excuses to either support / oppose. same goes to you and me.
Mirax.. MOE is asleep and probably peeing their pants now that someone has questioned if they’ve done their job. You’re seriously not believing that our government agencies are really that efficient are you? Must we be reminded again of Mas Selemat, ICA, NEA etc etc…?
I felt the press was giving Christianity bad publicity by airing the grudges of AWARE old guard and writing discriminating articles against the new guard and Christianity. For me to find out whether the press has succeeded with their purpose, I posted the following questions in a poll. (Cast your vote on http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/ )
1. Do you think the AWARE old guard and media is making an issue out of Christianity?
2. Do you think the AWARE new guard is promoting Christianity?
Since yesterday til now, 27 votes (cannot vote twice) have been received.
The results so far;
1. 69% Yes, 4% not sure, 37% No
2. 41% Yes, 4% not sure, 56% No
Some interesting observations.
Firstly, the public accepted that the press is supporting the old guard. Otherwise, no votes will be casted on this question and objections will remarked on the blog.
Secondly, the press has succeeded in dividing our society on this issue by instigating against the “conservatives” and speaking up for the “liberals”. Notice there are 2 distinct and upset groups of voters revealed through the results.
I’m glad Minister Vivien Balakrishnan stepped in and his sound advice was published in ST this morning. I searched through the entire ST and couldn’t find any other AWARE related coverage. My speculation is that the government has stepped in and ST writers had been duly advised to “hands off” :) Boo to ST.
30) Joshua on April 27th, 2009 11.03 pm
On the basis of your poll in your blog page which is devoted to your beliefs, you claim to represent the Singapore public? Yeah, really fair and scientific, isn’t it? Fundie Science if you ask me. Then again, the world is flat and the sun revolves round the earth too.
You and your ilk have no scruples in misrepresentation, isn’t it? The only person who posted on your blog (Gemami – and for once I agree with him) brought up the lies and behaviour of you-know-who and you just airbrushed it aside.
Since you wear your faith on your sleeve, please tell me if your faith permits telling lies on national TV. And all that stuff you wrote on homosexuality – why are you and your kind so fascinated with homosexuality? I just can’t understand it. And let me repeat this again. The old AWARE did not encourage homosexuality. If anyone claims they did, tell me where, chapter and verse, which progamme, which article, which page, which line says that.
Whatever happened to thou shalt not lie and thou shalt not bear false witness? And please don’t glamourise this as liberals vs conservatives. What has been done by you-know-who has no “conservative” values which honour hard work, honesty and openess.
Constance: ‘Homosexuality is perfectly normal. Just like heterosexuality, it is simply the way you are. Homosexuals also form meaningful relationships, and face the same emotional issues that heterosexuals do.’
See http://www.straitstimes.com/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_368345.html
The “neutrality” of AWARE’s sexuality school program
A child (straight boy) came home one day after attending a program on sexuality in school and asked his dad (straight man), “dad, my school teaches me today that it’s ok to be a homosexual. My homosexual friends ask me to go out. Is it ok?” Go to link below and check out Dad’s answer…
http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/
How can Constance say that!!!! Homosexuals DO NOT form meaningful relationships! They simply mistake the pleasures of anal sex for love! Didn’t you watch Brokeback Mountain (that vile movie that ought to be banned just like the Life of Brian)?! If gay relationships are so meaninful, then why does Heath Ledger look so glum?!
Why are there so much religion self praise here? It’s downright disgusting. Shouldn’t the mass media be secular as well? How much are Anglicans paying TOC?
32) Joshua on April 28th, 2009 10.36 am
Thank you. At least you have provided a reference unlike many others.
Firstly, let’s look at the context. This was said in an interview AFTER the firestorm broke out. Josie et al were supposed to be outraged by AWARE’s covert operations to turn Singapore pink, BEFORE the firestorm broke out, over their programs in school etc. The question was in what way the old AWARE (ie before the AGM) was promoting homosexualism. Sigh. So hard to explain. Anyway, so where are the offending programs?
Secondly, let’s look at context. Since history, there has always been people with same sex preferences, from Roman times to today, in all countries, whether religious, third world, communist or capitalist and from all walks of life, even right wing evangelical pastors (google Ted Haggard). Since it has always existed, isn’t it considered normal? This is different from whether it is “acceptable” to the community at large.
And aren’t homosexuals people too? They do form relationships with their families and boy, do they have emotional issues. If you are supposed to love the sinner, don’t start off by calling him or her abnormal, please. That is bad EQ.
And in this line – where…where… does Constance “encourage homosexuality”? The old AWARE provided comfort to all women, without preaching, without moralising. The entire text of the interview is that there is tolerance and no discrimination, recognising that there are gay people and it is their choice which is respected. That is why AWARE is supposed to be a SECULAR organisation.
Now whether it’s right or wrong or an abomination or a sin, ah, that’s where we get into opinion, isn’t it? Constance stated her opinion and many others have stated theirs. And our opinions are coloured by our upbringing and religion etc. Some of us don’t bother about others’ homosexuality while others spend sleepless nights, getting their knickers into a twist, over the sexual orientation of others. Josie and all others are entitled to disagree with the AWARE programs. But to call the old AWARE pro-gay or to insist that their programs encouraged and promoted homosexuality is as big a lie as WMD in Iraq.
And can I repeat my other question :
“Since you wear your faith on your sleeve, please tell me if your faith permits telling lies on national TV. “
Homosexuality is abnormal. It has been and always will be. If it is normal, then the Singapore government would recognize same sex marriage. If it is normal, we would need to have male and female species.
Homosexuality is an illness, a deviant that occurs in minority. It should be accepted as people do fall ill and you cannot discriminate or be prejudice to people who are ill.
However, do not confused acceptance as acknowledgement that it is should be mainstream. Homosexual cannot form a healthy family nucleus
I’m a free thinker and consider myself to be liberal. But I reject the view that Homosexuality is normal and that students should be taught homosexual propaganda.
Correct.. If it is homosexuality is normal, we would NOT need to have male and female species.
The “neutrality” of AWARE’s sexuality school program
A teenager boy (straight) came home one day after attending a program on sexuality in school and asked his dad (straight man), “dad, my school teaches me today that it’s ok to be a homosexual. My homosexual friends ask me to go out. Is it ok?”
To see dad’s reply, see http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/
Dear HT
I do not discriminate against gays. I once had a gay ex-colleague friend. But after some time, he started making suggestions and I distance myself from him after that. I emphatize with gays and if they respect that I’m straight and treat me as one, I have no problems even working with them.
#7) Danny on April 28th, 2009 2.00 pm
“Homosexuality is abnormal. It has been and always will be. If it is normal, then the Singapore government would recognize same sex marriage. If it is normal, we would need to have male and female species.”
The Singapore government also does not recognise dual nationality –so a person with dual nationality is abnormal? And since when is the Singapore government the final arbiter of what is normal and what is abnormal? As I have said above, like it or not, homosexuality has been around since Og bonked Trog in cave man days, and isn’t going to go away anytime soon.
“Homosexuality is an illness, a deviant that occurs in minority. It should be accepted as people do fall ill and you cannot discriminate or be prejudice to people who are ill.”
Sigh. Well, Danny, that is your fundie opinion and you know what, you are entitled to it. Just as I am entitled to my opinion that what people do within the law, is their personal choice.
“However, do not confused acceptance as acknowledgement that it is should be mainstream. Homosexual cannot form a healthy family nucleus”
Where did that come from? I don’t think I ever said homosexuals were mainstream. The facts are quite the opposite, are they not? Healthy family nucleus, well, that goes down in the “arguable” column.
“I’m a free thinker and consider myself to be liberal. But I reject the view that Homosexuality is normal and that students should be taught homosexual propaganda.”
Ahh…and that’s the kicker isn’t it? “Homosexual Propaganda”. Big words comprising of eight syllables. Enough to get the blood of conservative parents boiling hot. And fundies start frothing at the mouth. Ok, Danny, tell you what, I’ll meet you halfway. I agree that you are entitled to your opinion that “Homosexuality is not normal” and that children should not be taught that it is normal although I have a different opinion. I accept that you are entitled to your opinion. But your statement is that the students are taught “homosexual propaganda” is out in left field (see, like these fundies, I’m learning Americanese too – but baseball terminology and not fundie-speak), sorry, that’s just wrong.
#39) Joshua on April 28th, 2009 2.01 pm
Oh come on Josh! What kind of reference is that? You refer me to a fundie website with a silly story and you tell me that this means that the sinister old AWARE was not neutral? Puh..leeze.
And “My homosexual friends ask me to go out.” ooohhh…I can almost hear the “Jaws” theme in the background. Very kabuki. Just a suggestion that the homosexual friend is up to no good. Insidious today, aren’t we? Let me finish the story for you.
“The father looked a the son and said, “You aren’t gay, I hope?’ The son replied “No way! But I really don’t like the way some of the other boys, especially those who claim to be religious keep taunting and ostracizing my friend and calling him abnormal. They are so damn hypocritical, praying one moment and being an asshole, the next. He’s actually a good fellow and quite kind.” The father laughed and said, “Well son, that’s the way the world goes. Idiots just can’t leave others alone. Just be careful of everyone you don’t know well, whether gay or otherwise and especially those fundie nutcases. As for going out with your gay friend, same rules as always – only if you know him/her well enough, let me know where you are going, don’t do anything stupid and be back by dinnertime. “
40) Joshua on April 28th, 2009 2.15 pm
Josh, that’s fine. I understand your story and there are also gay idiots as well as heterosexual idiots. Same same. I am not saying you are intolerant. I am not even saying you are wrong. But we need to know what is opinion and to respect other’s opinion. We can’t force our views onto others. And back to the topic, this whole propagation of homosexuality by AWARE nonsense is just spin and trying to hoodwink everyone. There was no such propaganda or even attempt. This is like the fabled weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. It doesn’t exist. I don’t know if you sincerely believe that or are a mouthpiece for the fundies but if you are the former, please sift through the facts and think about it.
And back to my question (paraphrased) :
“is it ethical to tell lies on national TV? “
HT,
“As I have said above, like it or not, homosexuality has been around since Og bonked Trog in cave man days, and isn’t going to go away anytime soon.”
I thought it’s Adam and Steve?
Shit. Now you challenge my beliefs. I must fight you.
Dear HT
To people who think there is nothing morally right or wrong, then whether they tell lies on national TV is immaterial.
To me, I believe it is wrong to tell lies with the intention to deceive for self-interests, whether on or off national TV.
http://inspirationfortoday.wordpress.com/
So it is wrong of Josie to tell lies la!
MOE also just published statement saying Dr Thio’s allegations aren’t true.
So she is lying, or is she just ‘misinformed’?
So is she wrong also?
#44) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on April 28th, 2009 4.47 pm
No, no, that was before Christianity and Christian names. Only much later were the two heros of my parable renamed Adam Og and Steve Trog and as far as i know, they kept on bonking although I didn’t really follow up because it was none of my business what they were doing in private.
#45) Joshua Lung on April 28th, 2009 5.07 pm
Good on yer, mate. Not sure if your first sentence was a swipe at me (ouch, that hurts, I do have morals you know, they’re just different from yours) but I appreciate your answer. Thank you.
“Homosexuality is an illness, a deviant that occurs in minority. It should be accepted as people do fall ill and you cannot discriminate or be prejudice to people who are ill.
However, do not confused acceptance as acknowledgement that it is should be mainstream. Homosexual cannot form a healthy family nucleus”
they are already in the ‘mainstream’. they are already ‘around’ us whether you like it or not – they just exist like blind, mute and people with physical disability or emotional difficiency. human beings just like to see those who they feel are ‘normal’ people (people who act on average just like an average joe or people who just like themselves).
well, do you think the ‘normal’ hetrosexual pairs who are abusive (either physically, emotionally or induging in dangerous substances) can form a healthy family nucleus. unless you term ‘healthy’ as to mean procreation through copulation in the usual way between male and female.
there are worst human beings who are just lucky to have the ‘right’ sexual orientation corresponding nicely to that piece of sexual stuff between their legs to be acceptable in society as ‘normal’ than people who are negatively termed as ill and deviant by you.
37) Danny on April 28th, 2009 2.00 pm
I agree with HT on this. You’re entitled to your opinion that homosexuality is a problem, abnormal… etc. as Voltaire (wrongly attributed or not) said: I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it.
BUT.
And this is a very big but.
The whole Aware saga IS about the new Exco (presumably with a hidden fundamentalist agenda) in effect, silencing and disabling Aware by hijacking their AGM in an organised, hostile takeover.
They attempted to impose their own values onto others and through lies, wrongly gained the resources of Aware which were built up by the old Exco over a period of 24 years.
The steeplejacking may be legitimate and constitutional (due to an unfortunate loophole), but it is in no way ethical or civil and sets a very dangerous precedent of silencing whomsoever disagrees with you through force (hostile coups and the like).
I hope that you understand that even if (and I’m not saying that that’s the case) the new Exco has a legitimate point when it comes to homosexuality, they cannot be allowed to remain in control of Aware.