O RLY?

TOC is neither biased nor anti-Christian..

Hmm… and they ask their church members to join AWARE and help their ’sisters’? Contradicting statement again???

“We have not, nor will we, allow our pulpit to be used to intentionally teach anything that would arouse social tensions, divisions and unrest.”

I call doublespeak on Derek Hong. In his sermon, he said that the new exco’s actions are “a move to ensure that the nation does not cross the line drawn by God.”

Backing the divisive and polarising actions of the exco in the name of God — this is the exact sort of thing that causes social tensions, divisions and unrest.

Also, notice he only denies initiating or instigating the takeover, but is silent on whether COOS is urging its flock to back the new Exco.

Hi Abdul Salim Harun,

This actually reminds me of the Christian couple who were charged under the 1990 Maintenance of Religious Harmony Act last April. They were hauled up to court for mailing over 20,000 ‘seditious and objectionable publications’ against the Islamic faith, as well as over 20 tracts to their Muslim colleagues. The Christian woman was rather unrepentant and unapologetic with regards to her crime. When asked if the purpose of her act was to convert Muslims, she replied, “I am sowing the gospel seed, but it is God that converts”.

Your statement appears to be just a smoke screen.

Do you deny coaxing your flock to support the “cause” of the new Exco?!!

You’re guilty of rousing religious fervor against a secular organisation and should be investigated by the authorities!

The extract is from a previous report in TOC referring to the good pastor Hong :

“Calling for solidarity, he implored the women in the church to “unite with the sisters and support them.” He also said that the new team’s actions are not “a crusade against the people,” but instead a move to ensure that the nation does not cross the line drawn by God.”

Perhaps it is true that COOS did not initiate nor instigate the campaign but certainly they have since then gotten involved. The above seems a pretty explicit endorsement of the acts of the new exco. So I am not sure how to reconcile this with this part of the statement :

“We have not, nor will we, allow our pulpit to be used to intentionally teach anything that would arouse social tensions, divisions and unrest.”

but of course..

“Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.” (Leviticus 19:27)

“But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you.” (Leviticus 11:10)

“…do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material.” (Leviticus 19:19)

Pastor Hong, that shirt of yours that has cotton and nylon, god prohibited you to wear it!!!!!

the National Council of Churches have finally stated a position. it’s good news for the sane side…

http://www.straitstimes.com:80/Breaking%2BNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_370850.html

[...] am happy to see the press statement from a church on this [...]

You know, if what he say is true, then it is not good….

but if it is not true, then that is his integrity at risk…a pastor integrity

i think the churches have deviated from its original purpose of doing good.

In US, there is a huge outcry over how the evangelical churches have a huge roll to play in the passing of certain bills such as those in relation to stem cell research.

None the less, i do not think this pastor lies as his integrity is at stake. Too much at stake if you ask me. Not worth it.

At the end of the day i sincerely hope true sense prevails and that whatever religion we embrace, we continue to do good and reach out to the fringes of Singapore’s society. Moving forward as a nation together in this torrid time.

Dear All

Ahhhhhhh no repentence from Pastor Hong who feels its right to errrrr disobey his superiors.

Locke

Two points may be noted:

First, COOS is a member of NCCS, as are numerous other Singapore churches (http://www.nccs.org.sg/NCCS/Members.html). This is interesting in light of NCCS’ statement, “Our member churches are not involved in the present saga.”

Second, NCCS has declared an official position on homosexuality which is heavily reminiscent of COOS’ own (http://www.nccs.org.sg/NCCS/Statement_Homosexuality.html).

I’m not sure what all this means. On the one hand, you could say NCCS is subtly closing ranks with COOS in denying Christian involvement. On the other hand, it may be true that NCCS as an umbrella organization is trying to rein in an errant member.

The pastor is lying through his teeth. Church staff and he are directly involved in this imbroglio.

There are video and audio recordings that prove this.

There are leaked emails that prove this. These leaked emails are even being used by the nutties’ partisans (as I observed on the pro-new EXCO pages on singapurakini) without question, so their provenance is not in doubt.

The heat is getting to COOS, and since the planned stacking of the EGM with the location being Spore Exco was nipped in the bud by the police and the MOE came out with its statement on the CSE, someone probably quietly told the pastor to cool things down. That’s what this statement is about.
Damage control but unlikely to be taken at face value by the thinking public.

@11) iliveinuk on May 1st, 2009 12.49 am

“i think the churches have deviated from its original purpose of doing good. ”

Well, firstly you gotta know the original purpose of the Church, If it really is about doing ‘good’, and what ‘good’ really means.

I personally feel the Church has not deviated.

The buddhist take (of this individual monk) on this affair is sane, compassionate and right-minded.No mincing of words either. Kudos.

http://sdhammika.blogspot.com/2009/04/be-aware-be-very-aware.html

@ 2) smallvice585 on April 30th, 2009 11.40 pm

And the words “allegations” just happen to be in quotation marks ;) ;)

JK

i realized that there are really people who can be very thick skin,

comparing his previous email and this current one, you would think that the pastor has a major split personality problem.

The issue here is not longer did COOS initiated the whole takeover, it is where does the church stand in this whole saga. My question is why after so long that COOS now gave this statement?

If Pastor Hong was not involved at all, say it. Say that you have nothing to do with this. Do not use the name of COOS, represent yourself. Say it that you have no prior knowledge and you did not encourage it and you did not send all those emails (claimed by some) to ask your members to support the new EXCO. That you have not try to play with words to cover your intention. That you did not give your blessing over the whole takeover.

Say it here if you dare. I may not believe, but you may be able to clear your name. and win back your integrity.

Before God, say it.

It is no longer about COOS, the ripple effect now has involved other Christians from other churches too. I cannot help to think it is a well calculated plan.

No church involvement? I wish I could believe them but with emails circulating among the church members to get involve to support the new guard with evidences of Dr Thio instigated a coup is itself quite telling of what the church has taught their members.

The whole saga is undeniably well planned to oust the old guard. Why such drastic & merciless actions to wipe out a group of long time veterans in old AWARE without a slightest breathing space accorded to the veterans & the subcomittee members?

If John Chew is sincere in what he said, than he should bring Dr Thio to task without delay. She has been making such despical motion and even exagerated her stands against homosexuality and the old guard’s other painful missions. Worst of all, to malign MOE for promoting homosexuality which MOE has denied and Josie could not even make her stand clear through CNA. Sexuality is miniscule in the old aware programes but it was magnified, dissected and poured salts to scar the wounds that have existed in our society. If this is not divisive, than what else is not?

The whole matters seem to reconcile well with the speculations outside. A lie cannot escaped a thousand eyes & ears and who is seen protecting this lie now?

Having followed the saga closely and how the new guard has played with their words and by circumstances, I cannot help making further suspicions as to why Derek Hong did not come clean earlier and why now after the new guard get caught in this messy shit?. If this statement came immedately on the pre-EGM day, it is simply done deliberately to boost more supporters towards the new guard. Very clever and timely indeed!! Do I believe him? No!

I rest my case and hope the old guard take back what is rightfully theirs and the new guard should quietly set up their own establishment to do whatever they wish without others interference.

Dear All

Points of Note as to dear old derek hong’s forked tongue, misinterpretations and subsequent reprimand from NCSS

1. It is clear that he was told to release a statement. It is also clear that he did not say what he was told to say as seen from the subsequent statement from NCSS addressing all the points he either ignored or glossed over.

2. In particular the “use of the pulpit.”

Locke

Funny isn’t it?

just because someone is a pastor/priest means they are honest and upright people who won’t lie, cheat or steal?

I beg to differ.

Ted Haggard anyone?

Oh… How timely that this statement is issued at the eleventh hour to the EGM. I agree with Joel Low’s point that clarifying is not the same as making a stand. Carefully crafted response at the eleventh hour is a common tactic used to garner sympathy votes.

16) lockeliberal, you’re quite right!

Derek Hong is also obviously a blatant two-faced liar. When he eventually meets his maker he will have some serious explaining to do….

Thats if the Singapore Govt. doesn’t get to him first, which I hope happens! The likes of him and the misguided bunch of Pussycats including the Thio monster should not have influence over community.

Bloody subversives.

Hi everyone,

I think irregardless of a person’s failings, we should not drag religion into the fray. At the end of the day we are afterall a tolerant multi religious, multi racial society.

In the same way we do not flak venerable ming yi and his runnings of ren ci, we should as well not attach the personal integrity of this man.

One of the ways i have learnt tolerance especially towards things which i have not been too fond off is to look at the strengths of the people involved and not their misgivings.

Are we no better than these people if we bad mouth them? Im sure Andrew Chan and the others who made harsh comments are definitely of better morals not to stoop so low.

Lets not allow one incident to create any ill feelings amongst us Singaporeans and focus on the problems at hand as a country together. The credit crunch and our ministars who see read reports of retrenchment figures first thing in the morning :P

AWARE was never about gay or lesbians until the new ex-co took over and then no one could stop talking about gays……Who then is really promoting the gay platform?

CSE was not about promoting a gay alternative lifestyle to youths. Those provocative descriptive words ….extracted from the TRAINERS’ manual were trigger words to get the youths to talk about their view and feelings and not to state how they should behave. Again taken out of context.

2 more members of the Ex Co and 1 more long time staff have left because they were discounted by the new comers. They have leached AWARE to almost bare bones…..

Pharisees and Sadducees : behaved as though their own religious rules were above all; Their piety was often hypocritical and their efforts often forced others to live up to standards they themselves could not; Became obsessed with obeying own legal interpretations in every minute detail that they completely ignored God’s message of mercy and grace. People of mercy and grace do not disrespect other people’s values and force them out.

This is not true. Church of Our Saviour did not initiate or instigate any campaign to take over the leadership of AWARE. The church withheld comment but the allegations have continued. This statement is to clear the air so far as our alleged involvement is concerned.

We have not, nor will we, allow our pulpit to be used to intentionally teach anything that would arouse social tensions, divisions and unrest.

While “Church of Our Saviour did not initiate or instigate any campaign to take over the leadership of AWARE”, its members did. It is WRONG and yet the church did not come out to correct the action of these members. Instead, it calls on its members to support their wrongful act.

Now the COOS has committed the act of:

“Church of Our Saviour initiated and instigated a campaign to support the church members who take over the leadership of AWARE to hold on to that control”.

The COOS must come out to ANSWER its position on the covert take over act of its members.

How can the public trust the Christian faith if the COOS turns a blind eye on this covert take over and rally its members to support such disgraceful act.

People will now ask: “WHAT IS THEIR HIDDEN AGENDA”!

I would sooner believe the NCCS website is in error.

@ 22) SpeedWeed on May 1st, 2009 3.49 am

No one is saying pastors are above bad decision-making nor wrong doing. What we do have is a higher expectation of people in positions of authority.

Cheers!

The Anglican Diocese’s website is down… I think too many people from COOS accessed it at the same time when Rev Dr John Chew, the Bishop of the Anglican Diocese and President of NCSS, finally rebuked COOS on the abuse of pulpit…

@ 26) sarek_home on May 1st, 2009 8.44 am

You are assuming that the church-attendee relationship between COOS and members of the new Exco is similar to that of an employer-employee. That might not be the case.

And even if “correction” was given it might not be made public. ;)

COOS is an expert at evading questions & firing off lies, lies & more lies.

Faced with so much documentary evidence that COOS pastor asked his flock to go forth & give their votes to Josie & her gangsters, this pastor still has the audacity to write in to TOC to “clarify” that he did not say what he did.

Wow, either COOS pastor is suffering from Alzeihmer’s disease or he is very delusional or irrational. I think most prefer delusional or irrational.

Where does lying and deception rank on the list of sins according to the Bible?

Must be a minor sin right? Esp compared to homosexuality?

It is easy to point a finger and say “YOU LIAR”…But in my opinion, this is just a matter of semantics. The Pastor of COOS clearly does not think that he has used the pulpit to arouse social tensions, divisions and unrest. That is a fair statement… it is not like people are rioting.

If there is one good thing that comes out of this… more women and Singaporeans (recruited by both Excos) will be informed and participating in AWARE and in the issues they tackle with.

I am sorry to say this but I think Pasror Hong’s statement was issued just to cover his A**hole. Poor chap, he needs to be pitied as he has lost all creditability in the eyes of most Singaporeans.

When he point his index finger, three more are pointing back at him

I think Derek Hong has outlived his credibility. Still remember the time when asked if any new ex-co members were from his church, he said “No Comment!” when he knew all along what had happened. No one will believe him if he said he did not support the new ex-co in the takeover of AWARE.

#33) yipeng on May 1st, 2009 10.35 am

In studying the utterances of the extremists who are pressured by those who are more sane, it is more instructive to note what was not said instead of what was said. I note that Pastor Hong said that COOS “did not initiate or instigate any campaign to take over the leadership of AWARE”. Fine. Whether he is to be believed, is up to the thinking individual, although I, being a cynic, interpretes what he said as “you can’t prove we started this”.

But let’s leave that aside and study what he did NOT say.

He did not say that COOS is not involved. He did not say that he and the rest of his flock are not going all out to support Josie and gang, although this is a national issue and not a church issue. He did not say that the his pulpit is not being used to rally support (which he himself had expressly done last Sunday). He did not say that his church is not actively canvassing for support for the new exco thus involving the church – though of course, he would not do that himself, leaving it to his self-confessed gay pastor Shawn Tay, to be the patsy and to send out the emails calling on the flock to go tot he EGM.

The pastor adds “However, Church of Our Saviour does have a stand against the agenda of activists promoting homosexuality as a normal alternative lifestyle” – again perpetuating the non-existent bogeyman and saying, in doublespeak that yes, they are taking a stand and pushing this.

Well, perhaps he did not lie (unlike certain members of his congregation who have no compunctions about telling lies on national TV, no less).

I always wonder at how such minds work – looking desperately for an imaginary enemy and then fixating itself on this imaginary enemy until it looms larger than life and using all means to the ends of defeating that imaginary enemy, whatever the cost and the “collateral damage” it causes.

Certainly the agenda advanced by such people have caused deep rifts in our society. I, for one, will not forgive them for this and the sheer naked arrogance they have shown in shoving their agenda and beliefs (I don’t care how good their beliefs or their intentions may be, I have my own beliefs, thank you) down our collective throats. To borrow the propaganda that these nutcases like to use, for the sake of our children, such anti-social acts must be stopped.

assume if a group of NUS student take over Aware – doe sit mean NUS is behind them.. Within organisation, groups or Christian, non Christian; buddist etc etc – if a grouping of ppl felt sometihng be done to change direction… they go about doing it .

let not link them to their employer or their leanings. they are simply against the direction where liberalism had creep in.. .

Tomorrow any grouping of ppl can set up a civic consciousness group all within the law.. if there are no one to do it, does blogger stand up to the occasion?. We should cheer the democracy is alive and well in SIn..

We should be glad there is some form of check and balance in place … unlike where OMO can loses billlions and no one have a say…

#SZ
instead of the keyboard, try inserting 3 fingers into your .. a new-age liberal pleasure. Let must be check and balances.. unless you enjoyed that 3 fingers up yours to forgot.

I think many of us are missing a very crucial point here…many years ago..Church of Our Saviour started a ministry to reform people with a certain inclination…and it was headed by a certain person by the name Sy Rogers…a reformed gay/transvetite who went on to marry and have a daughter (I believe). To this day, that has alway been their stand..so nothing new here! I believe they have all the rights to make their stand based on that belief and it’s not up to AWARE alone to think otherwise….ultimately the people within will decide what they want. So be it!

Chapter XV of the Penal Code:
Promoting enmity between different groups on grounds of religion or race and doing acts prejudicial to maintenance of harmony
298A. Whoever ––

(a) by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise, knowingly promotes or attempts to promote, on grounds of religion or race, disharmony or feelings of enmity, hatred or ill-will between different religious or racial groups; or

(b) commits any act which he knows is prejudicial to the maintenance of harmony between different religious or racial groups and which disturbs or is likely to disturb the public tranquility,

Ignorance is bliss… :)

Im am glad that the most Revd Dr JOhn Chew has clarified that the church should not involve itself with AWARE.

But i am disappointed with his claim that ‘Our member churches are not involved in the present saga”

Surely he can see the hand of COOS in this?

I stand my my first call for more clarity. Please help me disseminate this pettion as widely as possible. I will deliver it to him when the time is right.

http://www.petitiononline.com/matt1589/petition.html

36) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 1st, 2009 12.20 pm

Inspired by you, here’s my contribution – if ever there was a need to invoke this Act… :

MAINTENANCE OF RELIGIOUS HARMONY ACT

Restraining orders against officials or members of religious group or institution
8. —(1) The Minister may make a restraining order against any priest, monk, pastor, imam, elder, office-bearer or any other person who is in a position of authority in any religious group or institution or any member thereof for the purposes specified in subsection (2) where the Minister is satisfied that that person has committed or is attempting to commit any of the following acts:

(a) causing feelings of enmity, hatred, ill-will or hostility between different religious groups;

(b) carrying out activities to promote a political cause, or a cause of any political party while, or under the guise of, propagating or practising any religious belief;

(c) carrying out subversive activities under the guise of propagating or practising any religious belief; or

(d) exciting disaffection against the President or the Government while, or under the guise of, propagating or practising any religious belief.

Now let’s wait for the counterattack from the ******* (sounds like – Randy) .

La nausee #13,

Perhaps NCSS is hanging COOS out to dry, so as to not draw attention to its identical position on homosexuality?

It will be interesting if any of the major publications followed up on the info you dug up.

Yah but Chapter XV is about Offences Relating to Religion or Race… which AWARE is not :D

Derek hong is a big liar. He wrote emails to all members asking them to support their “sisters”. Please explain !!

Dear all,

As we stand on the threshold of a swine flu pandemic, why are we promoting controversies and indulging in this mud slinging over the stand of the church or the statements of pastor Derek Hong.

The goal of our forefathers is to promote harmony in the midst of a multi ethnic society. But we had turned away from this and indulged in endless and meaningless talks.

Where your treasure is there your heart will be also and if we had no sin then cast the first stone.

Whatever the heart of pastor Derek Hong is, I am sure he will be judge when he stand before His God one day.

So, therefore lets move on and be a more gracious society and love your neigbours.

several -> you mean majority of the decision makers
not intentional -> the road the hell is paved with…?
Bible commands us to love the homosexual person -> quote pls
pawn of the church
->
no bible told me this but
if it walks like a duck
talks like a duck
its probably not gonna be a chicken

I have lost my confidence and trust in the new ex-co. I wonder whether they are embarassed by the twist & turn of the events which make them look rather silly and high handed! For God’s sake, please repent your SINs while it’s still not late to salvage the situation and whatever lost pride and dignity…..

40) Go Green on May 1st, 2009 3.02 pm

Sorry, Go Green, I can’t agree with your call to “move on”, swine flu notwithstanding. I don’t underplay the importance of other issues in our life such as the recession, etc but to me this ranks up there and deserves serious attention.

If we allow religious ideology to cross into civic society, then this sows the seeds of destruction of a peaceful society. Whether or not AWARE is restored to the old guard (which i think is unlikely though I hope I am wrong) we must all be alert to the encroachment of religious beliefs into our secular system.

30) yipeng on May 1st, 2009 9.16 am

You are assuming that the church-attendee relationship between COOS and members of the new Exco is similar to that of an employer-employee. That might not be the case.

I certainly did not assume the church-attendee relationship similar to that of an employer-employee.

The church body is a congregation of brothers and sisters. It is a very close family relationship, not the sort of “employer-employee” relationship. It is a life-long relationship and it makes a much stronger case of the whole congregation accountable for the deed of individual members. The church leaders must not ignore the deed of its members and they should be accountable for their deed.

when i was young i was always told not to play with fire, its a good servant & a bad master.

now somebody in a position of influence played with fire & its going out of control (if not already). instead of putting it out, they just use some lame means to cover it, its plain to see that thay will live to suffer their foolish act.

play on i say, some must learn a lesson the hard way. no verbal warning will work, they belong to that group.

Which is a bigger sin?

A

I do agree the notion of moving on, BUT now is not the time. We always need to move on with life but the timing is important. When you see someone fell down next to you, do you move on? Or if you see a blind man trying to cross the road, you move on? After you helped these people than you move on.

If we are people who just “move-on” all the time. We may be better dead because we are hopeless zombies that can’t even spare a little finger to help. In this case you do not deserve to live in this society at all.

The reason people is not moving on here is because this is a situation we felt will affect us and our lives. If we just die off quietly here, these lunatics will shaft their so call standards into our throat. If we keep quiet, we agree silently with them and agree with their actions as well. Now is not the time to move on.

There are no excuse for COOS and their pastor. Their letter to clarify their stand is making their position looks even more unclear. Pastors does have a way to play with words to lie but you will not be able to catch him. I know it because I used to work in a church that promotes HOLINESS.

The senior pastor say he hates sins, hates lies, hates gossips…. but I saw him committed the very acts that he claimed he hates. Why, because the higher you go, the higher you need to maintain and when you make a mistake, you cannot let people know, the only way is to cover it with a lie.

I remember this pastor collect a 2nd offering when a visitor came to speak in our church. It is a default thing that everyone takes for granted that a 2nd offering normally goes to the visiting speaker, so people gave more because he preached well. But to our surprise, the visiting speak were given a fixed amount and the church took the 2nd offering. When questioned, the senior pastor said he never said the 2nd offering is for the speaker, he just felt he need to collect it. We have never collected 2 offering before that.

You see how deceiving they can be. He did it again after that and when questioned again, he avoided the whole issues and bring God into the picture. The person who questioned him has her name written in his black book of troublemaker. I resigned and left the church.

For those who are defending COOS and their pastor, think again. you do not know the lies they have stored in their safe. Do not be used as tools for evil just because someone is named pastor or senior pastor or other big church names. Do not be partaker of someone evil doings, you will have to answer for it before God.

For those who said “Let God be the Judge”. You are not exercising the wisdon that God gave to you. God said “Judge them by their fruits”. So he wants us to use our God-given intelligent to judge for ourselves. USE YOUR BRAIN in another word.

Sorry I sounded rude but I am tired of seeing religious leaders using emotion and words to manipulate their believers. I have seen it and I am still seeing it happening but it is getting more and more serious.

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. The senior pastor that I worked for keeps telling the church he does not collect a salary, but I found out he does but he call it honorarium and he does so through another organisation that the church supports and he has full control. He said he live by faith, and has moved from a 3-room to a 4-room flat and now living in a private condo thinking of shifting to a landed property. He change he car every 3 years, it always gets bigger. He said God provided all for him. I discovered he collects tithes from some members who gave they tithes to him instead of to the church.

I was working in one of the conference where the speaker use a near-transparent 12 by 36 by 12 inches container to collect offerings. Everybody rushes down to give and since it is near-transparent, everyone can see the colour of the dollar note they put in. So many are forced in this way to give more. They even have to empty the container half way into a trash bag because it is overflowing.

The church have to stop thinking that control makes people obey. Control makes people rebel because freedom is a God-given thing given to all, whatever the religion, sexual orientation or colour. DO NOT PLAY GOD cause you are not.

37) kopiO on May 1st, 2009 12.01 pm

“assume if a group of NUS student take over Aware – doe sit mean NUS is behind them.. Within organisation, groups or Christian, non Christian; buddist etc etc – if a grouping of ppl felt sometihng be done to change direction… they go about doing it . ”

kopiO, when you are at the door of your home you smell something fishy, you know you mother is cooking fish.

People here are not idiots, if a group NUS students hijack AWARE, nobody will think NUS instigated it. Maybe a lecturer but you cannot link NUS with the student.

But here, the link can be made. If you have follow through with the whole saga you know they are basing their so-call new directions in Christianity.

Christianity-Christians-church-COOS ….. Do you see the link or not?

The pastor have spoken from the pulpit to ask his members to support this cause. He emailed his member too for this purpose. The New EXCO lied about they knowing each other.

ALL this and you said there are no links. Please be realistic.

To each its own. Be who you want to be. Your are what you are. No one is perfect. No one is better. There is only one God for all races and religions. Its not a question of whose God is more powerful thats provided you believe there is one.

If you do not believe in God well thats your choice. So let us not use the question of lesbianism and homosexuality as a guise in all this farce thats going on.

The truth will soon be revealed and at the end of the day we would have waisted unnecessary time and efforts that could have been channeled to our worthy causes–”Swine FLu” and the worlds financial problems, retrenchment. jobs>

I rest my case.

I think the issue is that the new exco should just set up a new group and not use the stealth tactics to seize control.

Someone posted this and its really good. It is entitled What happened inside Aware office a day before the EGM:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvLMdcs_XN0

Pastor Derek Hong ! you are prevaricating and shamelessly doing it – best for you to disrobe hor……

I have just found out that the pastor of a church by the name of Rock of Ages is calling on all their female church members to sign up as members of AWARE to support Josie and gang, simply based on newspaper reports and her claim to a dream that it is God’s will. This is so scary!!! I wonder how many other fundamentalist chruches are being mobilised for tomorrow’s meeting. Anyone else heard anything?

Gemini #50,

Believing in astrology.

YODI #52,

Is your case lethargy? Rest before starting.

HT #54,

Clip review: funny and subversive. (Atheists are often compared to Nazis.)

Dear Pastor Hong,

Why should homosexuality be wrong just because the Bible says so? In fact, in terms of a commandment allegedly laid down by God – Leviticus 20.13 [to which you drew reference] – anyone who is a homosexual must be put to death. So what is this crap talk about God loving us so much? This god of yours allgedly created a special place, supposedly an eternal lake of fire, where he will send us, or some of us, to live and suffer and burn and scream forever and ever; but he loves us!

Are you aware with scientific findings that a person’s sexual orientation begins in the womb? If you wish to argue that culture also has a role to play, I wouldn’t disagree.

And what makes you think that this god of yours exists and “loves us so much”?

You will not of course admit that your god is portrayed in none other than the book said to be inspired by him – the Bible – as a being with killing or genocidal instincts.

Please re-read these passages, in case you have forgotten them:
Genesis 38.6-10
Deuteronomy 2.24, 2.34, 7.16, 12.2-3, 13.6-10, 20.16/17
Numbers 31.1-40
Joshua 6.24, 10.39-40
Judges 3.29, 4.15/16, 8.17
1 Samuel 15.2/3
Hosea 13.6
1 Kings 18.40
2 Kings 1.9-12

Joel,
The very nature of civic organisation is to rally what matters – essentially there will be those who simply dont tolerant… they can come from any grouping of ppl. this is how civic grp arises.. example … You can start a imporve toilet scheme, where do you find a group of ppl willing … often within gang of friends you already know to rally ..right?

I think many Christians will answer the call to go and support the New EXCO. That is why I am worrying for AWARE. A lot Christians are blind followers. the fact is no matter what NCCS says, they really do not control most churches in Singapore. Many churches do not even bother about them except having their church particular being published in the Church Directory. Other than that NCCS do not really have any say in the church community.

They do not even need to register with NCCS when a new church is set up. I know because I helped to set up a church before. Most churches are independent…. so no checking ….. they can do anything.

I think we will see a big turnout for the New EXCO. You will see a lor blinded supporters…. they do not use a cane. I hope that the old guard will have overwhelming respond too…. bet them. If cannot … resign and set up a NEW AWARE. Suggestion :WAAA – Women Action Against Abuses ….

No matter what happen the old guard is still winners.

2) smallvice585 on April 30th, 2009 11.40 pm TOC is neither biased nor anti-Christian..

Try to be more subtle. :) You were way to obvious there.

ur…. KapiO … your point is?

Leave the churches out of it.

Its a group of people twisting God’s Word to suit their own purposes.

This has nothing to do with religion. Leave it out. Comment about the individuals.. not the entire Christian population.

Joel Low #58,

I think so too. The most strking comment I’ve read (and agreed with) is there is no such thing as a fundamentalist Christian. You are either Christian, or not. Period.

63) roger toh on Your comment is awaiting moderation. May 1st, 2009 10.53 pm #52To each its own. Be who you want to be. Your are what you are. No one is perfect. No one is better. There is only one God for all races and religions. Its not a question of whose God is more powerful thats provided you believe there is one.

One God for all races? You crazy or wat. Jesus must have polluted your filthy mind. There’s a plethora of gods amg all religions, not just Jesus. It’s appalling TOC allows people to derogate buddhists, muslims, taoists and catholics this way. There aren’t just xtians in singapore ok?

There is only one God for all races and religions. Its not a question of whose God is more powerful thats provided you believe there is one.

This sentence tells me that the moderator is definitely christian. Fake impartialness.

Chill. Love. Practise Love. Admin should delete post number 64.

There is only one Race – The Race of Humanity

There is only one Religion – The Religion of Love.

When SOOC mass spam the anti moe letter around, they are already promoting the involvement of their religion. Too late. They know better than to stir up trouble for their own church.

Guys, don’t you think this has gone past the point of being funny. Seriously, I was actually not terribly sympathetic to the old guard until the new exaco reveled the presence of the Feminist Mentor and then you could see the new lot for what they are – totally nuts.

I mean what constitutes a homosexual conspiracy here. A screening of a film? The fact that a gay guy was allowed to talk about getting people to be more open about being HIV? (Which if you look at MOH statistics, you’ll see that HIV is not a gay disease) And the fact that an educational program conducted along with the MOE did not denounce homosexuality.

I’ve said time and time again, I’m no fan of homosexuals and lesbians. I even made my sister cry when I visited her over the holidays because I used the F** word. But this view that there is a homosexual agenda that’s out to endanger the family is insane. Have they got any proof that you can turn people homosexual this easily? Come on! Let’s think logically about the issue.

well said jaded.sg. all religions are about love and peace after all. tsm is probably misguided.

Feminist mentor. You mean she has ambitions for old lee’s MM position. Doubt she has shoes as big as MM’s.

I am just plain curious, so many lies spoken without much thought. Isn’t it a sin to lie in the context of christian?

@ 65) roger tan on May 1st, 2009 11.01 pm

What good is tolerance if it cannot tolerate any form of intolerance? The Bible and Christians do believe that there is only one God. It may be difficult to muster but please be tolerant ;)

Gays are a hazard to our society. We should thank the new guards for helping us thwart their plans to use aware as a platform to project their voice. Religion should not be part of their agenda but the upholding of righteousness in the name of God is. I don’t want my kids to learn bad stuff. The state should be the one responsible for taking care and teaching our sons, not us parents. They should answer for these.

This is true. Only one God exists in our fabric of existence. The rest are also gods, just without the capital G. TOC should moderate all posts to remove the word jesus. It’s derogatory. Is TOC anti-christianity?

I see. I agree with your view yipeng. I apologise for being too emotional and intolerant. Maybe there is really one god after all.

There’s no deny that because of the Pastor’s and his church members’ involvement in the coup to take over AWARE, social tensions, divisions and negative emotions are aroused.
NCCS should have made its statement earlier (at least right after Senior Pastor Derek Hong’s weekend sermon and before the church’s instigation on parents on the CSE issue). Many fanatic church members have already been brainwashed and are behaving so irrationally that I doubt they will heed NCCS’s advice now.

As for Pastor Derek Hong, instead of using lies to cover lies, he should make amends by instructing his ‘followers’ to give up and resign from AWARE. There’s really no future for them at AWARE. What they will win will be despise, contempt and further condemnation from people with integrity, if they persist.

Dr Gwee Li Sui’s article (in another thread) shows that he is a considerate, clear-minded and highly intelligent Christian. He is every bit correct to warn Christians against supporting the new exco’s actions to vote the old guards out at the EGM. The implications he stated are valid and not to be ignored.

#55,

please be more specific, are you refering to the New Creation Church, aka the Rock?

where did you get that piece of information from, can you substantial it? thanks

Forgotten to add this:
Pastor Derek Hong could use Peace’s brilliant excuse to exit if he is concerned about ‘face-saving’.

I see. I agree with your view yipeng. I apologise for being too emotional and intolerant. Maybe there is really one god after all

Josie represents her church! There’s no way her church can run away. Some religions believe in a god; some believe in many gods. I think many gods is more accurate.

#78 orchid,

what’s peace brilliant excuse?

New Creation Church also involved? A simple quarrel btwn 2 grps of auntys. Live and let live. tomorrow’s EOGM is just a publicity stunt again. lets wash our hands off this matter and focus on the flu!

Peace’s suggestion is to fire the pastor like how one of our MP kena fire and lie in hospital lidat. kidding. Pastor D must be truthful & not lie. bad role model.

lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies lies
i am sick of hearing lies. someone tell me what is the real agenda of TSM?

We have all been subverted by the rainbow alliance. If we do not allow a rapist to teach his “agenda” to our school children, why do we allow a gay to teach his agenda? or a lesbian to teach hers? or a child molester? or an animal “lover”? none of those people were “born that way” or even remotely “made that way”. We have been diverted into perverted argument. The issue is not about genetic make-up, NGOs, new/old guards, church or God, or journalism. The issue is about ALL our children, not just Christian children, but ALL children of Singapore.

I think we are missing the point and went way out. The point here is not whether we should allow the nation to cross God’s line or not. It is not even about the gay or lesbian issues. AWARE does not promote the lifestyle of gay or lesbian. As our Prime Minister mentioned in parliament last year, what sexual orientation one is, it is his private lifestyle and we do not dictate what and how each one should live their life. AWARE is only trying to be relevant so that they can help the student to understand more about themselves.

I agree with #71 Tang Li comment that it is not so easily and for some impossible to change a person to another sexual orientation. What is worst is that we know the issue exist but we pretend it is not there and we shield our children for the truth. The shielding can do more harm to the children than educating them about it because they will either get information from their friends or somewhere else where it is less controllable . Some may even experiment on themselves .

Some of you argue about 1 god many gods …. different religious beliefs… etc. I am perfectly okay that we have different beliefs. You can believe in Jesus, Buddha, Alla… or whatever God you believe. Here in Singapore, I have the the freedom to believe my religion and I can accept that someone else believe a different one. The point is whatever you believe in, it is okay with me, I can still be a fellow Singaporean to you without trying to convert you over.

I know some have aspire to convert the whole of Singapore to your religion. You can if you try hard enough. But until then, can we respect one another beliefs. Giving space for majority or minority to live their own religious lifestyle. Do we really want to start a religious war by intruding into one another religion? Do we want to see those who are over zealous hijacking organizations to force upon others their beliefs and values.

Put yourself in the shoes of those being hijacked. I am sure there are Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists among the old guards. How would they feel if the hijackers wants to impose Christian values unto these group of people. Have we thought about the seriousness of the whole saga? If everyone starts to impose our own beliefs system in the places we work or abuse our authority to promote our religions, there will be chaos everywhere. Look at other countries where such things have happened, Look at the middle east, India…. etc.

If a another religion group try to hijack a Christian based Organization, for example… Touch Ministry, Boys Brigade, how would the Christians feel? See?

“Do unto others, what you want others to do unto you”

The reason for such an outbreak of unhappiness over the whole saga is not because it is about Christianity or gay or lesbian issues…. We have learned to live with one another in Singapore. Th real reason is the way it is done. We Singaporean are people who can adapt. We can accept changes as long as it is for a better future.

But we as conservative as we are, we also belief that we can reason things out.

The New EXCO have not engaged in any discussion with old AWARE staff of their so-call deviation from the original objective before the AGM.

They made claims of AWARE promoting alternative lifestyle and showed they were troubled by it but they never wrote a single letter to MOE.

They are all new members and they are in AWARE for not more than 5 months.

Their so-called mentor has been hiding behind the scene until she has no choice but to show herself.

They lied to the public about their intentions even lied that they do not know one another until the AGM.

All these behaviors troubled Singaporean. Singaporean love peace, we always want to solve any problem peaceably. Why the hostile act? Why not have dialogue first? Why the sudden takeover? This questions keeps running through our minds. We cannot blame the public for reacting against it because we smell something fishy here.

We cannot blame Singaporean for being alarmed because the New EXCO broke the peaceful lines that we have drawn and maintained for so many years. A line we will not cross to maintain peace and order here. A line that many have worked very hard to maintain has been broken.

I seriously felt that the Singapore Christian has been misrepresented in this saga. A normal Christian or a Church will not will not accept such actions as being Godly or Christian-like. Thus the stand of NCCS. Such people or church will use one or two issues to prove their case, but they will never show you their true agenda and how they misuse trust and abuse their power to reach where they are now..

In this saga, actually nobody wins. We all lose. The trust for one another that we have built and the unity as a nation has been set back quite a distance due to this group of inconsiderate people. Tomorrow there might be more damage done if Churches get involve by sending their member to support this cause. This is something, we all hate to see.

sliim,

that’s akin to saying either you’re taleban or not, if we take the full spectrum of how you would define fundamentalism.

of course, it would be interesting to see how you work this out in your reply.

Hey ppl… whether you like it or not, the facts is all out there for you to see… Definitely, the church is INVOLVE in this saga… Definitely, the new ex-co, the pastor has been LYING to the people… Well whats there to talk abt? This ppl should be detain under ISA for creating hatred with their hidden agenda and motives. Singapore is NOT under their god. Its a FREE & SECULAR country where ppl are free to practice their own religion and believes…

If they not happy with AWARE, why not set up their own association? Why must they infiltrate and hijack it? Where is the self respect of this so called Christians???

# 82) JL,

“what’s peace brilliant excuse?”

Read his post #1 in the following thread:
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/toc-perspectives-views-on-aware/

Now that the MOE has started the investigation on the sex education in Sec schools – has it not met the key issue of new aware?

Should they not step down now?

What will they ask for next? Higher pay for committee members? – like their high paying pastors?

Pastor apologises for misusing pulpit

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/317519.asp

SENIOR pastor of the Church Of Our Saviour Derek Hong has issued a public apology for using the pulpit to give backing to the Association of Women for Action and Research’s (Aware) executive committee in their dispute with the group’s previous leadership.

“My actions on the pulpit have aroused some tension in this saga,” he said, “I now stand corrected. I undertake to be more sensitive to similar situations in the future.”

Hackles were raised recently when he encouraged female churchgoers to “be engaged” and support Aware president Josie Lau and “her sisters” in the women advocacy group, in a weekend sermon posted on the church’s website.

Last Sunday, the pastor also invited his congregation to pray for Aware president Josie Lau and her husband, who stood next to Mr Hong on stage.

#86) Joel Low-

very well said.new guard please step down and start your own Christian Organisation. Please dun mix religion with the secular, Aware has a secular role to play, not a religious one.

# 86) Joel Low on May 2nd, 2009 2.13 am

We cannot blame Singaporean for being alarmed because the New EXCO broke the peaceful lines that we have drawn and maintained for so many years. A line we will not cross to maintain peace and order here. A line that many have worked very hard to maintain has been broken.

Thumbs up for your comment!

The new Exco are underestimating the power of social justice.

Hope the government will take note that the enormous group of self-restrained individuals are also watching its (the government’s) reactions and stand on the new Exco’s affective, sneaky and scheming conduct which is the major cause of the current social tensions.

48) sarek_home on May 1st, 2009 3.21 pm

Apologies.

“iliveinuk on May 1st, 2009 12.49 am

i think the churches have deviated from its original purpose of doing good. ”
—————————————————————————————————–

The Church’s original purpose is not “doing good”. Good deeds are supposed to be a side effect of christian life, not the purpose. This stems from the notion that “all religions teach us to do good.” Ultimately, it cannot be denied that the Church’s central purpose is to obey God’s will and live out the plan he has for Christians’ lives and the world in general.

Ensuring that sound family and social are protected from the depredations of deviant choices is part of this, and there is nothing wrong with the Church being concerned with this, but hostile takeovers are definitely not part of the teaching.

//95) blackwhiteorgrey? on May 2nd, 2009 11.56 am
Ensuring that sound family and social are protected from the depredations of deviant choices is part of this, and there is nothing wrong with the Church being concerned with this, but hostile takeovers are definitely not part of the teaching.//

We understand your view but we also hope that you understand that what constitute a sound family or society or is considered deviant is not up to a group of christians to define based on their belief. Exactly, that is what we feel, some group of christians like Thio and COOS has failed to convince the majority of the people that they have to resort to stealthy, sly and dubious operations.

Okay…. I think the meeting is on at hand. Please post the results of the EOGM here so that we know what is the outcome.

Okay?

smallvice585 #66, bismarker #87,

I am considering the full spectrum of how one should define being a Christian, one who believes in the good book, for better or worse, as the inerrant word of god. Hook, line and sinker.

If a Christian doesn’t believe ALL of scripture. Then he/she is simply cherry-picking. Consider Cafeteria Catholics who pick and choose what they like and discard what they don’t. How are they Catholics in any honourable sense of the word? (Catholicism itself is cherry-picked, but that’s a different can of worms.)

I agree with Dawkins in that “moderates” betray both reason and faith. I am not endorsing fundamentalism, but I think there is something to be said about their consistency.

From: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/04/letter-criticises-toc-for-use-of-divisive-labels-in-article/

Peace #29:

“…all good Christian should be fundamentalists but the word fundamental was never used as prefix. It is assumed that every Christian is a fundamentalist, ie, complete submission. Unfortunately the word today gives this negative connotation. As some posters put it, fundamentalism is also seen as going round, prowling the streets enforcing the injunctions, like the Talibans.

“For your information there is no such thing as liberal or moderate Christian. Maybe, you think the moderate ones are christians who keep to themselves and don’t go round evangelising and the fanatics are the ones who are always sharing their faith. Evangelising is every Christian’s duty and not an option. It is a commandment.

“Jesus calls these moderate ones who are outwardly Christians, who go to church every Sunday; who are involved with Christian activities but no faith in their heart, goats [?], meaning they are not truthful in their heart. They also compromise and condone to unchristian activities. When it comes to the crunch or when the rubber meets the road they compromise, they deny, they play to the gallery….”

P.S. I disagree, I believe, with everything else Peace had to say.

perhaps the govt. should look into charging the ones responsible under the Sedition Act

slllim,

you are the one judging them now and unfortunately or fortunately they couldn’t care less about your judgment. They choose to believe otherwise that they are good believers and continue to believe so, so is there a problem with that?

If there is, well then many things in life people cherrypick, according to your definition. The scriptures that you speak of has undergone so many revisions to itself, how are you going to be fundamental in the true sense of the word? From the so called gnostic texts, the King James and the International version, so who is going to say this is the final version or is it going to be keep going to find the original artifact so that everyone can stick as closely to what is being said?

The irony is that while you seek to argue against believing in religion, you are actually using a definition so commonly used by the Taleban or so many ‘fundamentalist groups’ around the world, that is going back to the basics. It’s really a dead end because at the end of the day, it’s going to be about an exercise in power over definition about what the scripture is which really ignores what religious experience is all about and hides the fact that complete submission is an impossibility.

3/5/09

Religious leaders regardless of faith must never interfer in Politics or Labour Groups and Pastor Derek Hong must take full responsiblities and resign as a Pastor (time has come for all religious leaders to be clearly told of this and should they insist,then they must resign immediately). It is very dangerous to have religious leaders to interfer in Politics and Labour Groups (we have seen what had happend in Burma).

Regards
Andrew Chuah

[#52 HT]
“If we allow religious ideology to cross into civic society, then this sows the seeds of destruction of a peaceful society. Whether or not AWARE is restored to the old guard (which i think is unlikely though I hope I am wrong) we must all be alert to the encroachment of religious beliefs into our secular system.”

[#111 Andrew Chuah]
Religious leaders regardless of faith must never interfer in Politics or Labour Groups and Pastor Derek Hong must take full responsiblities and resign as a Pastor (time has come for all religious leaders to be clearly told of this and should they insist,then they must resign immediately). It is very dangerous to have religious leaders to interfer in Politics and Labour Groups (we have seen what had happend in Burma).

I fully concur with both of you. Absolutely, absolutely.

rgds

Aiyo, you guys are writing abt christians like that because you know they are too mild and don’t fight back. If you were talking like that about other religions, see if they take a gun and shoot you. Gays can join organisations why can’t christians? Hahahah. Plus i thought this country had a Religious Act and ISA then how come people can publicly flame about other people’s religion to this extent. Disgraceful. What is the govt doing about this?

Especially when this pastor you are talking about has never come into your backyard and killed your chickens or something like that. He hasn’t even come into the bedroom and stop you from having sex with another man. I read the papers. All he says is that he doesn’t believe in having sex with a man. That’s his problem right. But gays will still go ahead and do it. Your parents tell you not to have sex with another person of the same sex, you listen to them? No right. Plus, parents have more power to stop you from having pleasure, they stay in the same house as you. Do you tell the police to arrest your parents? How can you people be so mean?

But i better not say so much, later you find out my address and send me death threats, or worse still rape me. The whole country should be afraid of AWARE and gays now.

Hi Andrew Chuah #111,

The Monks’ incident in Burma is one of completely different light compared to the AWARE Saga. Buddhism is the national religion of Myanmar. Buddhist Monks are held in extremely high regard in Myanmar. Since the Junta has practically dismantled political opposition and civil society in Myanmar, the only group left, which has the organisational strength to speak up against the Junta, is the Buddhist Monks.

Opps, i forgot to add, going into other people’s religious institutions and commenting on their messege and actions like this Straits Times and then setting one christian person against another. I don’t even say anything like that when i go to my friend’s temple. Or tell him that someone else said the other temple he go to is bigger or better blah blah….I wonder who are these people who work at Straits Times, they are gay just say so.Why have to poke their noses into religious matters and incite hatred? Just say,’ I am gay and i will love who i want to love’. Its just like saying ‘I like chocolate cake and not strawberry cake.’ Don’t need to like tell the person who like strawberry cake that his mother has a problem because he likes strawberry cake or he was born with a funny mouth.

(113)
christians r mild and dun fight back…hahahahaha… never read about crusades ah?
but of cos.. we can tok abt anything expt SEX. somehow they go a bit off when SEX is written. who cares abt derek hong’s opinions on what men do with each other? why he kept harping on it in sermons?? why cannot tok abt other things? bible doesn’t tok abt other things meh? somemore got a link on his website ‘HOMOSEXUAL’. aiyoh… maybe he a bit repressed. he should keep his thoughts pure, STOP being so obsessed with SEX.

Bismarker #110,

“…unfortunately or fortunately they couldn’t care less about your judgment.”

Besides TOC’s rules of conduct, I doubt anyone here, even you, needs anybody else’s approval to opine.

“…They choose to believe otherwise that they are good believers and continue to believe so, so is there a problem with that?”

If they didn’t, I wouldn’t have come to believe what I do: there’s a problem with consistency.

“…many things in life people cherrypick…”

I fully agree. But not everything is taken to be holy scripture.

Supposed if you adhered to a set of scriptures, find something disagreeable in it. All that’s left is to kick back and marvel at the feats of intellectual acrobatics to avoid dissonance, where there really shouldn’t be any.

The officious need to revise the word of god (through different variations of the bible, denominations of Christianity) takes the “problem” to a global scale. I don’t have the time or resources to go there. But I’ll say if one is hell bent on discerning a celestial message, one can find it in a cookbook, or a grilled cheese sandwich (as somebody did).

“…an exercise in power over definition about what the scripture is which really ignores what religious experience is all about and hides the fact that complete submission is an impossibility.”

I would argue cherrypicking defines exactly what the religious experience for the vast majority is. And if one cherrypicks enough, complete submission is not only a possibility, it is almost a certainty. What can’t be lived up to is simply discarded.

To bring it back to “there is no such a thing as fundamentalism”: there are only cherry-pickers or Christians (sometimes refer to as fundies)

This Pastor Hong is blur or what? I have very negative feelings about this church.

slllim,

well the only thing i would agree with you is regarding the first line, but of course you were more interested in polemics than addressing the issue.

Here’s a thought, suppose you now do have some views on Truth which is your version that is somewhat more superior to the Christian version what happens when 80 years from now someone points out there’s some social basis to that and it’s not as founded and grounded as you thought of? What happens then?

As for the cherrypicking issue, yes, even if they did try to (which is really hard to prove) cherrypick and paint a picture of idealism, well what about the rest of us then?

The only thing is really your view on religion, is it just about following the manual according to you then? we didn’t see a manual on bomb making nor did we see a manual for taking over Aware did we? nor one which ask you to brush your teeth twice a day or buy food from Sheng Siong instead of Cheers.

so who’s really cherry picking here? I suggest that the issue might be complex that you think it is. If you think that by saying that someone is not christian because he or she didn’t do that or what, well the opposite could be argued of you that you are not a true atheist because u didn’t do this or that. Your task in arguing just because religion does not represent totality therefore hence false is not really going to get you any converts to your camp the same way that neuroscience and newtonian physics didn’t . Perhaps there’s much more to the religious experience in which you are inclined to believe, unless of course you choose to stick dogmatically to some certain notion arrived out of philosophical arguments without actually speaking to any Christians.

# 118 dave,

he is not blur, he acts blur.

you got go NS not? army never teach you that term meh?

bismarker #119,

“…you were more interested in polemics than addressing the issue.”

Ok…. So let’s go back to the argument.

“Here’s a thought…. What happens then?”

I have no idea what you are on about. An example would be nice.

“As for the cherrypicking issue, yes, even if they did try to (which is really hard to prove) cherrypick and paint a picture of idealism, well what about the rest of us then?”

Who are “they” here? What is this addressing?

“The only thing is really your view on religion, is it just about following the manual according to you then? we didn’t see a manual on bomb making nor did we see a manual for taking over Aware did we? nor one which ask you to brush your teeth twice a day or buy food from Sheng Siong instead of Cheers.”

Yes, it is just about following scripture for me, as it should be (as I quoted Peace the Christian). Bomb making, taking over secular organizations are logical extensions. Sheng Siong Cheers etc is mere polemics, as you would say.

“So who’s really cherry picking here? I suggest that the issue might be complex that you think it is. If you think that by saying that someone is not christian because he or she didn’t do that or what, well the opposite could be argued of you that you are not a true atheist because u didn’t do this or that. Your task in arguing just because religion does not represent totality therefore hence false is not really going to get you any converts to your camp the same way that neuroscience and newtonian physics didn’t . Perhaps there’s much more to the religious experience in which you are inclined to believe, unless of course you choose to stick dogmatically to some certain notion arrived out of philosophical arguments without actually speaking to any Christians.”

1) The issue is complex no doubt.
2) Of course an argument can be made that I am not an atheist if I don’t do this or that. But I don’t see the relevance.
3) Speak to Christians? Any religion would apply; extinct, past, present and future; they have religious experiences too: Mormons, Scientologists, Cargo Cults, Moonies…. I (you, for that matter) wouldn’t know where to start.

“Your task in arguing just because religion does not represent totality therefore hence false is not really going to get you any converts to your camp the same way that neuroscience and newtonian physics didn’t.”

I think what you are trying to say is: I argued that scripture should dictate EVERY aspect of a devotee’s life. I didn’t and I wouldn’t.

My argument is: scripture (any religion) should dictate EVERY aspect of a devotee’s life WHENEVER it applies.

Sllim,

That’s the problem when you mentioned WHENEVER. Any argument that you proceed thus far is likely to be your definition of how things should be, any application requires interpretation, the problem comes in with who’s doing the defining. My use of totality experience is simple, selective picking means religious scripture is logically inconsistent which basically means saying religious experience is false, hence it shouldnt be there in the first place. That leaves us with nowhere to proceed, since by logic if it is false but the problem becomes in explaining why they act the way they did. That means you can still have a blank text and people would still act the way they did if they choose to interpret the way they want it.

The other thing is not every religion is scripture based, if your arguing on that, well then religion didn’t exist before the invention of writing. But there are otherwise archaeological evidence against your point.

If you want to draw me into an argument about whether being religious is about scripture adherence, my point is plain and simple- to adopt such a view is highly misleading of what religious experience is, much less the understanding of religion. Unless of course your agenda is to prove that religious experience or religion is thus false hence there is no need for it, well I have stated clearly many times earlier that even if thus proven on commonsensical logical ground, it does not go anywhere because firstly, religious experience is more than a matter of falscity, and religious experience in many ways transcend logic if we adopt the supreme being to be ‘true’. What you have done earlier and in many posts is to use scientific logic to argue against religion, which is in many ways a tautological dead end because firstly religious people wouldn’t care; secondly science as much as religion is based on consensus.

If it satisfy your ego, I’m not a religious believer, but that does not mean I’m set on disparaging their actions and beliefs just because I do not see how religion is based scientifically nor would common logic be able to explain. That does not mean it is less true however, it is real in their eyes and it is rightly so for them. To do otherwise means to take yourself as their pastor in telling them what should be done.

The thing perhaps, that i’m guessing would be of interest to you, would be if christians or religious believers are fundamentalists, is there a problem with that? I would say no so, because there’s no explicit causality in proving that ‘fundamentalists’ become religious militants, that only happens in the abstract construction of our mind that has no real basis in reality. Therefore, it becomes more important to look at these people, see where do they come from, what sort of group characteristics that made them up; instead of trying to find the ‘origin’ of their behaviour as ‘christian fundamentalist’ and the core origin being the scripture, which is really seeking the easy way out.

Your use of “totality experience”, awkward as it is, is simple; a strawman.

I didn’t argue that. I used an example from Peace, unambiguous actionable scripture, to highlight my point. I am not going to hang Christians on ambiguous text; dead end.

“…firstly religious people wouldn’t care; secondly science as much as religion is based on consensus.”

Don’t care? So? 1+1 doesn’t need anyone’s concern to be true. Science is based on consensus? Bold claim but zero evidence or arguement.

“The other thing is not every religion is scripture based, if your arguing on that, well then religion didn’t exist before the invention of writing…”

That’s just trite. Of course religion existed before writing. Scripture was just my shorthand for holy instruction.

“…That does not mean it is less true however, it is real in their eyes and it is rightly so for them.”

Plain silly and demeaning to theists and atheists alike. Believing my garden has fairies doesn’t make it true.

“…religious experience in many ways transcend logic if we adopt the supreme being to be ‘true’.”

I encountered this insidious non-argument before. Basically, you are violating the rules of your discourse; using reason to prop up something then shutting the door behind you and say reason cannot refute it. It’s equivalent to saying: 1+1 = banana and insisting arithmetic cannot refute you because fruits are beyond the purview of arithmetic.

“…if christians or religious believers are fundamentalists, is there a problem with that?”

I got to say your grammer in many parts of your post is a problem and lends convenient ambiguity (like some parts of scripture). In any case, the scale of any possible “problem” depends on which religion it is.

[#123]

Good pointers, sllim.

Was COOS steeplejacked 5 years ago? Someone claimed that COOS was a different church 5 years ago, and that Derek Hong and his groupies had ousted the pastors that preach mainstream Anglican teachings.

rwkc #124,

Thanks for that. I thought it was just me and bismarker hanging around for a chat.

smallvice585 #125,

If backed up, that was be a sensational story.

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