“So I’m a concerned citizen and if people are so ignorant, I think I want to teach them.”

I’m ashamed to be so ignorant…

Dear Admin

2) Ark’s post should be deleted.

Self Righteousness at its very best.

Maybe , you guys should have gays and lesbians as children. Let us see your reactions.

Hi Don it will be deleted soon we’re just reformating something. Thanks.

This is so funny. I mean the Thio’s, mother and daughter are really cool and should be awarded a medal for their brilliance. I mean, I remember how during the 377A Debate, Thio Li Ann managed to spew out a load of non-legal and totally irrelevant arguments and somehow managed to get people to listen to her. I mean, you have to applaud her or perhaps shoot every member of the her university Law Faculty because this woman could make an argument without a single legal point and get a Phd in law.

Now, you have her mother taking over AWARE to save the organisation from becoming hijacked from Lesbians. What exactly was her proof? The organisation screened a “Lesbian” film. Oh, wow and now everyone who watched it is going to turn lesbian.

So there we have it. Mother and Daughter have single-handedly shown that you don’t need to talk about the law to get a doctorate in law. It is enough to appeal to the lowest common denominator and you will get things done. Who cares about logic and law?

If they had come out with this position with reasonable time, say one month, before the AGM and stated in open their intention challenge the old guards on this ground, they would have earned some respect and everyone would have respected the outcome of that AGM election.

That is how a democratic and civilized change of leadership and platform should have carried out.

sarek_home

They are doing it now belatedly. So let’s give them credit and respect for the stand.

Over to you Beemer & friends. You rightly asked for clarity, now Dr Thio has given it.

i do feel outraged – what can be done about this?

Well..madam Singam…the ball is in your court now! At least they made their stand clear…

Her interpretation of ‘giving back to the community’ seems more along the lines of trying to impose her views on homosexuality on others. Her extrapolation of current sex education teachings leading to ” Mum, I want to marry my girlfriend” or “Dad, I want to marry my boyfriend.” is quite ridiculous, frankly.

The takeover of AWARE through the exco reeks of their intolerance for views they disagree with, such that they have to resort to taking over the leadership of the society and booting out those they disagree with. If this is the way they want to be heard, it may work to some extent but surely they have lost a degree of respect for their choice of method.

So, the smokescreen has cleared… alot.

It can be arguably surmised thus:-
Dr Thio Su Mein – the ‘mastermind’ behind the AGM Coup. ‘Feminist mentor’ has ‘networked’ enough, dropped enough hints, to enough converts to be concerned, convinced & attended the AGM to vote in like-minded people who belong to the same church but otherwise do not know each other !

Someone wrote that she & the group should have a month ahead of AGM declare their concerns before engineering the AGM Coup… I couldn’t agree more.

Sneaky, surreptitious & non-transparent to say the least…

Beyond all nicties & patitudes mouthd, I do not think the newcomers are prepared to evolve, to be assimilated, to reform within & work with old guard….

Values, personality & attitudes-wise, it is a coup – no more no less.

The original president should not have resigned so easily in my opinion, the others who have resigned or going to resign should have the guts to have make a fight of standing for their convictions…. now it’s a walkover & incumbency has its advantages like changing locks & sacking staff….

Govt will lay off – I guess, MCYS uunder Dr Vivien who have ‘resolved’ Lee Bee Wah’s ping pong saga, must be monitoring events…

Clearly, it is for AWARE members to slog this out..

I am basically conservative & am only for transparency, however naive that may be…

Ultimately, the fibre & moral undertone of society as assessed by the Govt will decide whether the current state of affairs be maintained at AWARE or not…

9)

What is it with you guys? First, you said they had no agenda and it’s the old guard who hinted and stir up all these things by talking about religion etc. Now they said yes, they had an agenda, and therefore they had lied straight faced on national TV no less, and you easily reframe it into them still having the moral high ground because they made their stand clear?!!!! To quote a line Sen Joseph Welch threw at Joe Mccarthy – “Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”"

blackfeline,

The ball has been in the new exco’s court for more than 2 weeks now. Only after repeated and intense media scrutiny has their agenda been dragged out of their mouth now (and even then an agenda that was an open secret 2 weeks ago). The old guard had nothing to respond to since the new exco has been evasive up until now.

The response of the old guard to the new exco’s allegations will be crucial now, as it will display the maturity level of the old guard (whether the old guard will continue to strive to be inclusive towards the new exco and to debate the issues, instead of resorting to aggressive stormtrooper tactics). The new exco has really not displayed the type of leadership and emotional intelligence needed to lead AWARE (their integrity is even in question now).

this is the result of religious fundamentalism. uncompromizing people, with crazy views.

Why these people are against Mr Goh Chok Tong. SM said the govt will torelate homosexuality in civil service. Afterall we must pity these people, we can’t chuck them aside, they are human beings too. The new Aware is too much, by bringing Christianity into Aware is wrong.

Now my only ardent wish is to hear what the respected Honorable past presidents have to say personally about the whole saga….
esteemed ladies like Ms Claire Chang, Ms Kalwajit Soin etc…

Their views carry weight… and influence….

I hope they give singaporeans a glimpse of their take on events!

Yes i’d like to see if everyone can disagree with civility and work out their differences. I doubt the new exco would follow that path though, their actions so far bear great similarity to George W Bush’s ‘with us or against us’ rhetoric.

sarek_home #6,

I fully agree.

Joshua Chiang#9,

It’s pure spin. You would wonder if the same people would credit criminals for confessing their crimes. If the email leak is legit, it goes a long way in accounting for why they bothered to “make their stand clear”.

How do you work with someone who patently has no interest in co-operating with you?

I’m astonished by suggestions that it is now up to the old exco to work with the new team. Co-operation requires trust, which has been totally destroyed by the actions of the new exco. The press conference doesn’t change that fact.

In fact, it just highlights how much deception has been going on. No wonder the new exco were stonewalling the press, they were awaiting instructions from their MM (mastermind mentor)!

The way forward for AWARE is to get the members to null the results of the election, and start afresh.

Thio, Josie & Family finally declare “War” openly with gay and lesbian even though Josie told CNA such topic is controversial and should be left unsaid.

Despite the new exco committee unconvincing argument to CNA that it was not a planned coup and nobody knows each other, Thio said it was started many years ago to get these new exco team moving & networking prior to the staged takeover.

The old guard told the press, last week, that AWARE should not be used as platform for fundamentalist christian versus against the gay group. Her comments were seen by new guard as damaging & invalid. Today, Thio come clean to the press that her group of new committees will be promoting anti-gay thus she orchestrated the same church friends to join force to usurp the old guard. Thus we all now know it was a planned coup going on.

Like many commentators and forumners who have joined to write about the new guards non-inclusive, non-reconciliative and divisive stands, were bombarded by pro-new committees that all our arguments were speculative & bias. Now that Thio Su Mien has admitted they were the truth, I wonder what will pro-new committees said about pro-old committee speculative arguments in the past.

Another frustrating question to the new committee who came from the same church. Why deny the truth to the media and than blamed the media for not helping in their favour? Why kept giving contradicting and half-true statements to the press and national media to confuse the old guard and than get agitated over their own drama and finally need Thio to “come out” and come clean with their overdue hiddened motive!!!

At this stage of the saga, I strongly think the new exco members should set up their own establishment and draw the line clean from old AWARE who believes in equality, indiscrimative, an inclusive society for all. The old guard mission is itself pro to Singapore society where discrimination against our fellow citizens should be condoned and has no place in our cohesive society where everyone has played a crucial role to build it. If the new guard could not follow such simple mission or guideline to head AWARE and maintaining peace with everyone, they should have no place in the public arena except their own church that regularly promote war on minority group of our citizens.

I can confidently say that the new exco committee members have only themselves to blame for the current solemn state they have created and put themselves in and now they cannot get themselves out without THIO coming into the picture to excpectedly spew their church’s divisive views on the population.

6) A Tan on April 24th, 2009 10.36 am

They are doing it now belatedly. So let’s give them credit and respect for the stand.

The end does not justify the means. Their means to take over AWARE discredit their faith, their stand.

In life, you will find timing is everything in certain cases. Why doing it belatedly. People can see.

In fact, it is the old gurads that opposed allowing men to vote. What a lie by Thio Su Mien!

May I humbly ask the editor,
are you biased towards anyside of Aware ?
most like not right?

no offence, just a question i have on my mind.
would appreciate if you do not silence this voice.
thanks.

Dear All

Can’t wait for Gemani and Jaunty have to say about ” Maureen’s view” I have always said that their values were different from that which define basic feminism and these other women should just get out, Look at it Its not just Anti Gay, but Anti Choice, Anti Abortion, Pro Abstinence Pro Christian RIght

Locke

dear zheng xi,

might it not be better to engage ark on the substance of his comment rather than to delete it outright?

Let’s leave aside for a moment the reprehensible means through which the new Exco seized power, and consider their objectives for taking over, in light of the ideals of democratic debate.

It’s one thing to disagree with the old AWARE’s advocacy of GLBT rights. It’s another thing to take over AWARE in order to excise a particular viewpoint from civil discourse. If you disagree with your opponent’s expressed views, the solution is not to silence or gag them, taking over their leadership with the objective of muzzling certain kinds of speech (e.g., the holding of ‘lesbian’ talks, screening of ‘lesbian’ films, etc.).

Speech which one disagrees with should be met with counter-speech. Our disagreement with X (e.g., the ‘homosexual lifestyle’) does not also imply that we should prevent X from being advocated and defended by our opponents. One recalls Voltaire: “I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.” Even if I believed wholeheartedly in the ‘pro-family’ spiel, the onus would be on me to persuade the general public (through cogent argument) that my viewpoint is superior to that held by liberals and GLBT supporters.

But instead of debating and contending with the enemy, this bunch has found it preferable to infiltrate the enemy, and incapacitate it from within. The result is that the range of available viewpoints in public discourse has been diminished, and that freedom of speech and democratic deliberation have been subverted.

With new Aware, it wont’ turn the tide. We are open to western society, the ministers can’t do anything, you expect this Thio can do something magic? What a laughing stock.

So much for being an “inclusive” society! I remember some time back, GCK said homosexuals are allowed in the civil service since it was their qualifications and not their sexual orientation that determined their employability.

When the world is starting to open up, now we got a bunch of women with full intent to turn back the clock back to the dark ages.

The new AWARE is no different from the Gestapo.

Who does this bunch of people think they are? To use their religion and
impose their views on the rest of the population. Singapore is a secular
nation and what percentage of the people here are Christians?
Whay can’t they leave those gays alone. It’s not as if the gays are going
on a crusade to convert heterosexuals like these bunch of fanatics.
I sincerely hope the vote of no confidence against the new exco succeeds.

Their stand should not discrimate anybody but to help anyone in need irregardless of sex or unclear sex, race or religion. Everyone are children of God.

Hi Locke, Gemami has already replied in a previous thread re this whole issue. I think you can find it under one of the other Thio Su Mien articles.

Hi guys, let’s not get bullied by the New Exco comittee members
We must stand together against the bully. Save the old guard from tyrant!!! Watch the video here
http://www.flixxy.com/wildlife-adventure-cougar-bear.htm

Dear Don and Zheng Xi, please don’t subscribe to the fearfulness that is so evident in so many Singaporean message boards.

Ark’s post is derogatory and offensive, yes. But to delete it is censorship, which is even more offensive. Let Ark be scolded, refuted, debated by the rest of the board, but do not censor him.

If we are to broaden our minds and our understanding of the world, we need to hear from the entire gamut of worldviews, even the ones that are offensive to our ears.

If not, we become just like Dr Thio. Ignorant.

Marcus Lim

So condescending. Who they think they are.

#17 Transparency ’s comments are interesting.

Would certainly like to hear from past presidents of AWARE.
Lots of accusations about the new exco “hijacking” AWARE but in the first place, has AWARE been “hijacked” in recent time by members who were pursuing an agenda that distracts from the original roots and intentions of AWARE.

I don’t understand what is the big hoo-ha bout AWARE and their stance towards the gays. Why do the mainstream media need to spend so much time and resources to report on this. Homosexuality is a very controversial issue.
There will always be people( and organisations ) who are anti-this and anti-that.
AWARE is just one such organisation. Their internal powerplay do not affect us. It is just like those TV dramas.
So what if they are anti gays and homosexuals. We lesser mortal and peasants still have to slought thro this economic crisis.
Enough. Lets move on.

I think the ST or media should give old guard enough space to express their views to fight back. Otherwise it is seen as one-sided arguments against the old guard by the new exco members.

Besides, based on several media coverages, the new guard are simply trying to stall time since they have no clear answers why they staged a coup when the old guard has already laid strong foundations for AWARE. I think we and the journals have wasted too much time trying to dig out information from the new exco members who continue to hide behind their church waiting for further instruction.

Hi Marcus,

Appreciate your perspective on free speech, but I don’t want to give the government or anyone else a reason to close us down. Those comments were potentially in violation of the Sedition act and/or Section 298 of the penal code.

If we’re closed down for comments like those, I think that will be the greater loss for free speech. Hope you understand our position.

Zheng Xi is right. In principle, allowing all comments would be desirable and useful for debate; but with the kind of laws that can be enforced upon Singaporeans for offensive remarks are not to be trifled with. So long as they are in effect we have to play by the rules.

Yes. Cos I’m sure I’ll be tempted to turn gay after too many episodes of Queer Eye for a straight guy.

Here are the facts: When I watch my gay friends or shows involving gays. One thought DOES CROSS MY MIND.

“Wow that’s stylish.” or “Yes, that’s a more refined way to do something.”

IT IN NO WAY MAKES ME WONDER- if it’ll be cool or nice to experiment with a penis in my anal cavity.

Nor does it make me, in anyway, wish to touch or fondle a male reproductive appendage other than my own.

You don’t experiment with homosexuality, you are inclined or you’re not. Period.

Maureen Ong’s cognitive abilities and brain function are malfunctioning in such a way that renders me speechless on how someone that mentally challenged can ever be elected to power.

No wait.. 66.6 but that’s another story..

Oops.. lost my train of thought- Bottom line- Watching gay themed shows makes me want to be more stylish or buy better fitting clothes.

It in no way makes me want to be more gay.

To be honest, I want that level of stylishness to “advertise” myself to Krista Allens, Elizabeth Hurleys and Sienna Millers of the world.

Other men need not apply. Thanks very much.

Thio Su Mien is gravely mistaken. AWARE did not advocate homosexuality. They did not tell students to experiment with homosexuality. They simply presented it a neutral manner. But to the anti-gay brigade, anything short of demonisation is equivalent to the promotion of homosexuality. They believe that you either don’t mention homosexuality at all, or you portray it a negative light. Thus, the Christian fundamentalists are furious because AWARE failed to preach their message of intolerance and bigotry.

The old AWARE has been doing good work in affirming the value and equality of lesbian women and refusing to become a vehicle for irrational anti-gay hatred. Let’s not let AWARE be hijacked by intolerant people bent on imposing their own unjustified and religiously-based view of morality onto the rest in society.

“Hi Locke, Gemami has already replied in a previous thread re this whole issue. I think you can find it under one of the other Thio Su Mien articles.” Zheng Xi.

Thanks Zheng Xi. It’s in this thread at #49 and #92.

on the topic of christian fundamentalists.. i don’t believe any religious group should dominate a civil society like Aware. they will give women all the ‘christian’ solutions only.
everyone read this post for an excellent insight
http://groundnotes.wordpress.com/2009/04/17/the-aware-catfight/

full marks to democracy and

full marks to legal credibility

learning to play by the rules huh.

Muslim fundamentalists are called Islamists. So what do we call Christian fundamentalists? Christists?

Dr Thio: “I’m speaking on behalf of my personal capacity …”
Huh! Such bad English from a lawyer? Or is she schizo?

there’s many sides of the story:

- the lesbians vs the straight
- the christians vs the non-christians
- the old guard(really old, some of them) vs the new fighters
- the laxed vs the organized
- the libreals vs the conservatives
- the family value vs the body value
- the gays vs the straight
- the caught-in-their-dreams vs the fighting-for-their-dreams
- the fake- jihaddist vs the true-born-again

and last but not least

WOMEN VS WOMEN

we men have to siam!

THis Thio and Lau should be arrested under ISA for fanning and using religion to achieve their own aims. Please do not inculcate your religion and practices on to others. NGO is not a religious organisation.

I can’t help but being disturbed about it. But first, I applaud Dr. Thio and Ms. Josie Lau for standing up about their beliefs and getting involved about it, even if I do not agree with them.
The AWARE takeover has ignited something in us. Away with apathy, I’d say!
That said, I am uncomfortable that there are people who think homosexual are not normal, or that they are to be ashamed of and be actively resisted. So, what if your daughter want to marry her girlfriend? If that makes her happy and her partner happy, I’d say go for it. I don’t understand why other people would have to feel pain about it.
If you think you must live a certain way, just do it the way your morals tell you. You may share your sets of values with others but it is not alright to impose your values on others.

Supposedly leaked email from Thio Su mein:
http://singsupplies.com/showthread.php?t=26201

“affecting the children”, “mother of three”..
It’s an appeal to emotions. A logical fallacy.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing whether being gay/lesbian is right or wrong . So I won’t pass judgement.
But I do know that I don’t think the new AWARE should impose their Christian values on ALL Singaporean Women.
By doing this, it will only drive lesbians who are in need of help away and all those that feel AWARE has become a Christian organization. Does not a lesbian feel any less a woman?
So how can they serve the community now? Won’t this cause more harm then good? So if a lesbian has issues and comes forward, will they just tell them : ” you naughty girl….you first of all shouldn’t be lesbian?” So much for help ! That will be the last thing they want to hear !
So why don’t they start another ‘AWARE’ under their Church or beliefs? Let the old AWARE serve ALL women and they serve only those that subscribe to their values instead of hiding their true intentions?

I think the old AWARE is more human in the way a woman whether lesbian or true woman seeks for help, it will render its help and not be choosy of the victims.I came to know the old AWARE helped many victims such as rape victims, wife being beaten by husbands , divorcees, etc…

Marcus Lim – I would simply refer to them as “bigots”.

the new exco are hypocrites to the cause! They have made a joke out of AWARE and to my mind, the best way would be to shut down this organisation because it has simply lost its cause. It’s a joke for the new exco to allege that the old guard had lost its focus, for it is truly the exco’s agenda and high-handed actions which have truly shown that AWARE is now a lost cause. I say we either shut it down, or have all “sane” members who are capable of reasoned thought quit the organisation. Let these sad women run their organisation. Being such a judgmental lot, I can’t imagine anyone turning to AWARE for help.

I for another do not think the new exco should impose their views on homosexuality on society, religious or not. Being a homosexual is a right. AWARE is an organisation that should stand for the rights of women, and one that stands for gender equality. All women, not just women who conform to society’s ‘norms’. If they want to form an organisation that promotes anti-homosexuality, that promotes family, then they should start their own organisation and not take over AWARE and make use of AWARE to advocate their views. AWARE is an advocacy group for women, and women does not only mean the new exco or the ‘norm’ that society has subscribed to for such a long time, because that norm has changed, and AWARE has to change with it too if it is going to advocate women’s rights and gender equality.

Juz want to point out that concerns abt children turning homosexual are not confined to Christian parents.

Ask Muslims, Hindus and Buddhist parents abt their kids turning homosexual. and you will hear often hear comments like those of Maureen Ong’s. I have.

I think the concerns are misplaced. But then I’m not a parent.

The biggest irony in this whole sorry episode is that the new team, by hijacking a secular NGO for their clearly sectarian interests, had done more to promote LGBT and to engender sympathies for them than the LGBTs can ever achieve on their own.

God works in mysterious ways indeed.

The daughter also not quite full-house upstairs. From Wikipedia:
“”I basically had a sense that God was talking to me. I had stood up to walk out and I heard someone say, ‘Stop’. And no one was around me. Everybody was busy doing their own thing. I was one of only one or two Chinese girls in this whole room of ang mohs. And then I just had the sense that I had encountered God, that he knew my name and I was shocked.”

When you talk to your god, it’s called prayer. When your god talks to you and you can hear it, it’s called mental illness.

Siao ‘When you talk to your god, it’s called prayer. When your god talks to you and you can hear it, it’s called mental illness.’

hahaha ‘ you made my day after all this depressing news!.

#47) WahLau on April 24th, 2009 3.15 pm
#60) worldcrass on April 24th, 2009 6.03 pm

They are called “fundies”. Say it out and say it loud.

#57) A Tan on April 24th, 2009 5.36 pm

Juz want to point out that concerns abt children turning homosexual are not confined to Christian parents….

A Tan, you have posted often on this – I want to repeat again : That is not the issue here. It is NOT a pro-gay, anti-gay argument. The issue is whether a religious group can sneak into a civic organisation, hijack it and impose their religious views on it. This has serious ramifications for the society we live in. Everyone should understand that.

# 37) Looney Lee on April 24th, 2009 1.32 pm
I don’t understand what is the big hoo-ha bout AWARE and their stance towards the gays. Why do the mainstream media need to spend so much time and resources to report on this…….Enough. Lets move on.

And yet, you bother enough to read the thread and do a post? Sorry, I cannot agree with u. This is indeed worthy of the hoo-ha. I want to live my life in a secular country and not have someone’s religious views crammed down my throat. I want my children and me to be able to think for ourselves and not have a self-admitted religious bigot come to “teach me” when I don’t want to be taught. No, we cannot move on.

Let us examine the situation which has become very dramatic over the last 48 hours.

The fundies have come out of the closet and have admitted in not so many words that the entire takeover of AWARE was planned. They have said that this was fight the hordes of gays and lesbos making out all over Singapore 24/7 (get off me, u dykes!, I’m trying to type here). Ask yourself, why? What’s the game plan? Why hv they admitted to acting sneakily and lying to the world?

One thing’s for sure – evil is afoot.

My hypothesis is this – in the fundie war room, they have realised that the popular debate is lost. The neutrals are lost. Their sneaky and nasty acts have turned others off. SGeans are not as stupid as they think. Their performance on national TV sucked big time. Their internet war is in disarray as their trolls are devastated by logic. So they have made a decision to change tack.

what’s the plan now?

I have posted before that everyone must understand that this is not a gay-antigay issue. This is important. The fundies are deliberately trying to steer the argument that way. This is their only card left now but it is a powerful card. Gays are a minority. Most straight people feel somewhat uncomfortable with them. Most religious people believe that its wrong to be gay (that’s fine, they are free to hv their beliefs – just don’t shove it in my face – and btw I’m not gay). So now, demonise the opposition. Strike fear into the hearts of the ordinary folk.

Look, even Maureen changed tack. At the CNA interview, she said she joined AWARE as she was inspired when she read an interview with Constance Singam. But she does not say that now.

So they are mobilising. They are rallying their troops especially the more ambivalent ones, those Christians who aren’t quite sure what they are doing is right. Screams of persecution, death rates, being thrown to the lions at the national Stadium fill the air.

Why can’t AWARE do anything for Lesbians? Lesbian women are not women?

By martyring themselves, by screaming at the top of their voices and getting their trolls to echo it on the internet that there are gays everywhere who are persecuting them (militant gays who are jihadist indeed – that’s hilarious – can you imagine Osama mincing in high heels), they are trying to get all the people who are uncomfortable with gays on their side and more importantly to force the ambivalent Christian to have to make a decision whether to support them or not. That is why they are painting it in black and white – you are with me or against me – you are for gays or against gays. If you do not support me, the gays will take over SIngapore.

I disagree. This is NOT a pro-gay/ anti-gay issue.

The issue is whether a religious group can sneak into a civic organisation, hijack it and impose their religious views on it. This has serious ramifications for the society we live in. Everyone should understand that.

On top of that, they are just mean and underhanded people.

reply to 39) Zheng Xi on April 24th, 2009 1.35 pm

thank you for doing the right thing.

its a farce.. completely ridiculous.. to quote one exco member, one narrow minded 55 yr old frump, Maureen Ong… “i dont want my children to say oh its ok to experiment with homosexuality, anal sex or virginity or the pill or even premarital sex. I’m a parent this is shocking. How can this be done in our singapore society”(straits times 24/4/09 pg… Read More A5)

If you’re reading this Ms Frump, your children in all likelihood have at least engaged in one if not more of the above mentioned acts you wouldnt want them too and if they havent.. well lets just say again in all likelihood its a matter of time

Shocking? What’s shocking is your obstinate insistence at hangin on to your victorian beliefs irrelevant in today’s society. Yes even singaporean society. You are in every sense of the word a prude. Get out of that bubble.. its a wide world out there.. One you obviously havent seen

Dear People,

This development is very interesting. It shows that the debate between Conservative Religion vs Secular Humanism – has finally reached Singapore’s shores !

For those who have lived in America – they know that this is an ongoing debate there. Roe vs Wade. Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice. Creationism vs Darwinian Evolution. Organised Religion vs Atheism. Believers vs Non-Believers. Homosexuality vs Heterosexuality. Etc etc etc. And so on.

But I am definitely sure that the New Exco is WRONG to hijack AWARE. If you do not like AWARE’s approach – then form your own alternative organisation. You cannot force your views onto others. You can only offer an alternative and let people choose. There must be freedom of choice. There must be freedom of conscience.

The New Exco should immediately resign because this episode reveals their method of stealth and deceit. They have NO CREDIBILITY in our secular society.

I think this incident is an omen of things to come….

Best Regards
Dr Syed Alwi

[...] Having said all that, it does seem to me that the ‘new guard’ within the AWARE ExCo has lost the war of words and the battle to define themselves. From the get-go they seem to have attempted to define themselves in ‘national’ terms: i.e. claim to be as representative as possible. This began with the AGM where they took power, with members refusing to answer or dismissing questions about their religious affiliation. Their plans were couched in as vague and as general a way as possible. This could possibly be because they really have no concrete plans, or because they were trying to sound as inclusive and representative as they could manage: hence the use of non-objectionable and consensus-building terms like ’supporting women’, ‘women’s rights’, etc. And then on the Channel NewsAsia interview when the new president of AWARE spoke of being ‘pro-family, pro-women, and pro-Singapore’. And most recently, of course, came Dr Thio Su Mien’s claims to be a ‘feminist mentor’. [...]

If the new committee felt that there was a need to educate Singaporeans on the ‘right’ values, there are certainly many better ways to go about it than to orchestrate a rude, hostile takeover of an existing organisation that held fundamentally different values.
For example – starting up a new organisation of their own….

I don’t see how homosexuality can possibly be made out to be the agenda here – there are plenty of heterosexual MARRIED couples ruining the sanctity of marriage and redefining family values all by themselves – through abuse and blatant lack of respect of the rights of women!

Surely this is what AWARE’s original, noble aims were, to promote the rights of women and advocate against violence in the homes.

If a daughter had an experience with an abusive father towards her mother, chances are she’s predisposed from the negativity of that experience itself towards being lesbian, this is cause and effect, and has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not being gay is right or wrong.

Leave homosexuality out of this, I say. All that talk about the rights and wrongs of homosexuality will do no good if the root causes aren’t resolved.

What does it matter to Dr Thio how other families are structured?

“So they kind of got flabbergasted, what nonsense are they talking. So you know, I teach…well, maybe (you) should go to the website, educate yourself what’s happening. It’s happening in the US, in Europe, there’s nothing new. It’s going on five, six, seven, eight, nine years. So what is happening in society is that we are redefining marriage, we are redefining families. So I’m a concerned citizen and if people are so ignorant, I think I want to teach them.”

What nonsense is she talking? Will it really cause grievous harm to society if marriages are redefined? Countries legalising gay marriage do not seem to particularly degenerate, or become poorer, etc. Ugh.

Ae

They will not leave homosexuality out of this – otherwise, what else can they say? That is their raison de’tre. They have no other idea or visions. So expect to continue to hear this ad nausuem from the new exco and their trolls.

The other thing you can expect to hear is “persecution” (eg death threats, criticisms etc) Actually most of the criticisms are valid and frankly well deserved but of course, they will never admit it. Fundies love to be martyred, to be self flagellated, for their religion. Masochistic lot. But more importantly, it forces more reasonable people of the same religion to take sides. “Wah, you are also a xxxx, now the unbelievers are persecuting me, aren’t you going to help me?”

These are the tactics in play now.

ermm…Dr Thio didn’t answer the question on whether or not she did mobilise the AGM takeover. The lack of transparency and honesty in the new AWARE is just so sad. Twisting facts…unloving…these are not christian values definitely.

What the new EXCO has done is very dangerous…

So they decided that they don’t like how AWARE was being run (only according to their fundamental beliefs), hence they mount a sneaky takeover…

What happens if they also decide they don’t like the way how Singapore is being run…

Would they also do the same?

Whatever happen to open engagement and discussion?

If the sex education is so “pro-homosexual” as they claim, would it mean that the Ministry of Education was sleeping on the job?

Shouldn’t it be time that our esteemed ministers sit up and see if these claims are indeed true because some very uninformed people have started to write to the press expressing their concerns…

But if these claims are without any truth, shouldn’t people who knowingly spread such rumors and allegations be brought to task for stirring up unrest among the people?

Actually I don’t find what’s wrong with Ark’s comment. He is talking about muslim fundamentalists, not muslims in general. Even Chua Mui Hoong on ST today calls for the monitoring of christian fundamentalism as is the case with muslim fundamentalism. She commented that religious fundamentalism of any kind is bad for a society like Singapore’s.

We should be overly sensitive about any discussion on race and religion.

Oops. In my post #76, it should be “We shouldn’t be overly sensitive about any discussion on race and religion.”

Thanks.

It is high time we knock some sense into society that marriage is only between a man and woman. Try calling a pear, mango. I do not think you will be able to accept that.

I understand in one of the states in USA man and man can be legally married. Can someone confirm this? If so, mankind (or womankind) will be extinct in that state sometime in the future? For Singapore is it the right thing to promote? The answer is obvious ?No??

#78 Socrates

More nonsense spewing out of you. And you call yourself “Socrates”?

Firstly this is not the US.
Secondly, it is laughable that you say that mankind will be extinct. Go look up the stats, we are having a world population increase problem. In fact, we have teen pregnancy issues in SG. Even one as rabid as you must agree that this cannot be caused by gays.
Thirdly whether this is right or not, its not the decision of a bunch of fundies to make. It’s a matter for discussion by society. Stop this fearmongering about gays. The issue is NOT about pro-gays/antigays or Christian / antiChristians. It about taking over a civic society and imposing your religious views on it. Another issue is the integrity of the people concerned. They clearly had a secret agenda which they failed to disclose until forced to, and believe me, this does not make the new guard look good at all.

Socrates #78,

yes I believe in some states in US same sex marriage is allowed. Same sex partnerships are also allowed in the UK, I think. Now, what you have come to understand is simple to understand for some people because xenophobia is constructed for simpletons i.e. people who think with their guts instead of their brains.

Heterosexuals are no more interested in Homosexuals than Homosexuals are interested in Heterosexuals. The exception being bigots. Sexual orientation cannot be promoted either way. It just is. Homosexuals also happen to be in the minority, which makes them ideal political targets. There is no better way to feel solidarity than to create an external enemy.

Ms Thio Su Mien, you want to teach people huh? To be what? Extremists and elitists like you? What a joke. Your mind is so narrow, it seems like you are overly concern over issues surrounding homosexuals. Why? That seems like your agenda. Why don’t you create your own organization instead? You said you got no time to be involved in AWARE. But you had the time to monitor their activities all along and encouraged your church members and your niece-in-law to join AWARE and participate in the takeover. You have got the time to be their “feminist mentor”. Why the emphasize on “feminist”? I think you are very free but you have no guts to come up and lead the takeover yourself. So your silly niece-in-law take on your agenda and puts her job at risk. If DBS decides to terminate Josie Lau’s employment, I am sure you are going to make a fuss about it right, since you are a lawyer?You like to control things behind-the-scene. Thats what you are. You talk and they walk. You claim you are their adviser, feminist mentor, counsellor or whatever. I hope no one I know ever gets counselled by you. Your actions, along with the new exco are so detestable and embarassing to all women leaders. Josie Lau’s decision to be a part of AWARE was not approved by DBS. Was she being a good example for her subordinates? I don’t think so. Her actions are wrong. Did you advice her on that? What a joke!

oh my, what self importance Dr Thio places on herself! To title herself the feminist mentor? I would expect any mentor to possess at least wisdom and grace, and definitely not discrimination, tactics and dishonesty. Despite her age and her qualifications, i honestly doubt that she is wise enough to “educate” ignorant Singaporeans.

It is so funny. She said “I have nothing against lesbians or homosexuals personally. On a personal front, I’ve ministered, I’ve counselled them.
‘They are in pain. And very often from families where you have abusive fathers, they do things with their daughters and the daughters revolt, rebel against society.” What garbage is she saying? I know gays and lesbians who are Doctors, Lawyers, Directors of companies etc. They come from healthy families. They studied hard in school and obtained their graduate certificates. They are filial children. They are just like any other. In fact, they are better than people who organize sneaky takeovers, better than people with elitist mindsets, better than rapists, gamblers, robbers, and adulterers etc.What does she mean by many of them come from abusive families? Obviously she has seen too little. Rubbish-spouting women she is. The sight of her is becoming repulsive.

Socrates,

Please please change your nick. You are a disgrace to Socrates.

Your “arguments” are so full of loopholes and fallacies that even your fellow fundies would dissociate themselves from you out of embarrassment and for whatever credibility they have left.

It’s flabbergasting indeed that Thio Su Mien took it upon herself to gather her ’soldiers’ to effect a coup at AWARE based on their assumption that lesbianism and homosexuality are being promoted as an acceptable way of life.

Personally, I have no idea about what AWARE has been doing or has done. However, to stamp authority based on religious inking is definitely not the proper way forward. (Eg. Should we allow men to have multiple wives as allowed under Muslim law?)

Lesbianism and homosexuality is a fact of life. We can pretend to be ignorant that only men and women exist in this world. Doing so would be castigating the homos and lesbos unnecessarily and unfairly. If AWARE does stand for women’s rights and their other interests, then AWARE is in the best position to educate the lesbos and their responsibilities on the grounds that lesbos are women too.

Civil and moral responsibilities are the crucial characteristics that society must endorse and propagate through education and laws. All living souls are subject to laws without which a society cannot co-exist in peace. All will have their own space as long as each does not encroach on the other.

Here’s a simple (maybe) controversial example to tickle our minds.

Is there any difference if one sees a couple of lesbos or a couple of homos or a usual couple engaging in open display of steamy action in a public place? The difference is in the visual aspect but they are all the same, MORALLY WRONG.

Civil and moral responsibility IS THE WAY, GOING FORWARD. The law is always there to ensure reasonable behaviour, not on personal or religious grounds.

Perhaps, Thio Su Mien should start an alternative group called BEWARE (or whatever) to promote her cause. Her church buddies can fill all the ranks and propagate the way she wants it. Afterall, she has lots of better things to do than mentoring takeover activists through some simple email correspondences.

For the record, I do not approve nor condone lesbianism and homosexuality. I acknowledge their existence and hope that civil and moral responsibility are self imposed by everyone for co-existence.

A reminder to Thio and company that they have not properly adopted Christ’s teachings of reaching out to others. Personally, Im more inclined towards Buddhism.

Guys, I think even as we speak out against the Extreme Right, we should not be mocking them.

At the same time, I would like to announce that I am utterly convinced that the Norse view of creation http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html is the complete and inerrant truth and would like to ask all like-minded people, to inflltrate- I mean- join the Ministry of Education to be agents of change for Odin, All Father of the Norse Gods- with the eventual aim of making Norse creation a science subject to be taught in all public schools. The great halls of Valhalla shall be our reward.

HT n SLLim
The issue is not about gays?..please read the first editorial on this matter. It started the whole debate on this blog…for what is simply a new team taking over a old team in AWARE.
We are not in US but it is troublesome. I just google search and found out that the stats in Louisville is quite alarming. something like the growth rate of gays is 21% faster than the growth rate of the US population.
HT: Do you have any stats. Pl us know and dont be upset by my comments . I am not anti-gay.

Aiyah, all modern new generation digital natives know that the true creator is the Flying Sphagetti Monster.

Oops should be Flying Sphagetti Monster

Haha, this confirms that the takeover was premediated, preplanned and nothing short of hijacking. It’s funny why normal singaporeans should be subjected to the whims and fancies of just 1 religion when we have so many others.

Hi Socrates #78,

Heterosexuals are no more interested in Homosexuals than Homosexuals are interested in Heterosexuals. The exception being bigots and homosexuals pretending to be heterosexuals.

8o HT
No laughing matter..I read a report that the gay population in Louisville is rising 21% faster than US population. I have no way of confirming if this is true. I dont have info for Spore. What is the rate for Spore?Maybe you can help with the correct info.

MOVE On.. there are more important issues.

If woman cannot looked after each other, we man will continue to drink beers and watch the catfight from the sidelines.

In life, there will be winners and losers. so MOVE ON….or… gather 2000 women to fight back or create a brand new society.. nothing is lost.

The question is HAVE you lost anything after being displaced out of a name-sake.. GIVE IT UP … start something else AFTERALL havent you been teachning women how to wise up when things starts going wrong..

You are ALIVE and your BRAINS & KNOWLEDGE are intact and your name-sake is still CONSTANCE SINGAM… why you care who runs AWARE now…

MOVE ON and maybe you start ” EXCLUSIVELY WOMEN.” and wear red T-shirts for meetings. … bring little red flags and wave whereever you go and march victoriously.. BE A GOOD LOSER.

Zefly #87,

You better be careful. Thinking it was safe, Sam Harris did a similar caricature using Poseidon and got irate emails from worshippers. If people can believe in a bronze-age myth, they can believe in anything.

90) socrates on April 25th, 2009 6.59 pm

Socrates, you gave me a fair reply so I will return the compliment.

I don’t know the statistics for Louisville and whether or not the gay population is rising in Singapore or in any country, and why, is highly argumentative. . It could be the influence of existing gays (see, I am willing to concede that this is a possibility) but it could also be that many hidden gays are more willing to be counted, than in the past or even the migration of gays to a gay friendly place. If the latter two reasons are true, it means that there is no change to the gay population, its just that you know more about them. Or it could be a combination of all of the above.

Personally I hope my children are not gay but if it comes down to it, I would rather that they be in a happy gay relationship than a miserable abusive heterosexual relationship. But that’s my opinion which may not be shared by others.

You may believe that gay behaviour is a sin. All power to you. Preach to those who are willing to listen to you and convert those who are agreeable. But as long as we live in a secular society, do not bring such views into a civic society and do not behave in an underhanded manner. If the new exco when they joined AWARE had stated their unhappiness and intention to run for office, and had won the popular vote, there would not have been such an uproar.

The issue is NOT about pro-gays/antigays or Christian / antiChristians. It about taking over a civic society and imposing your religious views on it. Another issue is the integrity of the people concerned. They clearly had a secret agenda which they failed to disclose until forced to, and believe me, this does not make the new guard look good at all.

Totally agree. Politics should be secular. But it is obviously not in this case.

90) socrates on April 25th, 2009 6.59 pm

And Socrates, one more thing – if it had been a gay militant group that had “hijacked” AWARE instead of a fundie group, because it felt that AWARE was anti-gay, I would have protested against it just as strenuously and I am confident that many posters here, whose postings have been incredibly intelligent and humorous, would have done the same.

#88) socrates on April 25th, 2009 5.03 pm

No, I do not have stats and I don’t bother. I am not afraid of gays. I am afraid of people who have secret agendas. I am glad to know to know that you are not anti-gay but it doesn’t matter to me if you are, coz that’s your right – to have an opinion. I am not that politically correct and personally I don’t like the gay lifestyle but hey, that’s their problem, not mine.

But I hope that you will agree that it is not proper to bring such views into a civic organisation which is meant to be inclusive and tolerant.

The new team took over on false premises with wrong motives and for the wrong reasons. That’s why I am against them.

“Tolerant” does not mean “pro” or “encourage”. There is a very big difference. So it is a lie to say that the old AWARE was “pro-gay”. The evidence given was not credible.

It is appropriate time for pro-family group to take over AWARE. Increasingly, more organisation (including grassroots organisations) are being run by suspect homosexual or singles by choice. The government will be crowded out if their viewpoints are not checked. I can see the new team is pro-family and will empower women who had to work; looked after family and looked after children.

Singles with alternate life-style & sexual preference should form their own deviant perference group (Bangkok soi) becos they are against the grain of society fabric and should never passed themselves off as representing main-stream women interests.

Government had given these alternate life-style groups their turf; they should understand there is limit society is willing to tolerate/accepts them.

Cheers to new team and we looked forward to the new team to advance a pro-family cause and support Ministry of Community & Sports main works in keeping family together.

Sllim,

A guy called Donald Blake just called me to tell me he will smite me with Mjöllnir if I dare make fun of his father Odin.

#100 HT, you are like shifting sand blown by the wind all the time.

While you personally do not like gay lifestyle, you condone it. That is a problem. Fence-sitter do not have a country. You either lose it or you own it. You have to chose. Life depended on good level headed decisions not a bamboo capable of bending backwards.

What you wrote is craze. The new committeee had hardly begun their work and you are jumping around like a monkey. Becos 3-4 of them happen to come from same church, doesnt mean they lack civic consciousness. You started to speculate their work forward.

Give the new committee time to reinforce and galvanise their objectives. They will be inclusive and pro-family. They can teach you HT a couple of things about staging a coup to advance your deep concern and not be a armchair writer who have no helm.

Specially for you, HT go find a helm ( a sincere cause for humanities) to advance your cause. Get a copuple of guys/gals & form a coup. Example why not try form a committee to clean up HDB Kopitiam toilets.

WE encouraged the new team to helm forward.

Good point Burong! I agree with you! Damn, it feels good to belong to the moral majority…

Dear moderator,

Number 94) Plinth’s comment should be taken down. It is inappropriate for him/her to launch a personal attack on Dave simply cos of difference in opinions. We can discuss, debate, but should not insult.

On a separate note, what gives anyone the confidence to say that “There is no such thing called borned GAY or LESBIAN – it simple does not exists. They are born straights but had chosen to alternate life-styles.” Only the gays and lesbian can say this for certainty or researchers with concrete scientific evidence, and for anyone else to say something like that casually, I do not think that that is very respectful or responsible.

Let’s debate in a civil manner. No personal attacks, no irresponsible statements, please.

Peace

94) Plinth on April 25th, 2009 7.19 pm

Maybe you are right. Gays are not “doctors” or “directors”. How can such filth be in such noble jobs? They can be found as pastors instead. You can ask Ted Haggard.

As for TSM, someone (an avid comics buff) told me seriously that all evil persons are doctors and all heroes are Captains, eg Dr Doom, Dr Octopus, Dr Fu Manchu and Captain America. I am just waiting for the old guard to come out with a Captain and the analogy will be complete (anybody know Mark Goh’s reservist rank?).

I am neither for or against either the new or old guard of Aware. However, as a father of 3 school going girls, I would like to find out more about a) what is taught in the sex education lesson under discussion b) how did Aware become involved since it is a all female group and boys are also involved in the sex education classes.

Sex education cannot be entirely cultural / religion neutral. Each culture/religion have their own views which should be respected. As such if sex education is to be taught in schools, then the sensitivities of each culture/religion should be respected. This means that where certain statements may be deemed to be objectionalble by certain cultures / religions, then these statements should not even be made.

I for one would like to see the information that is taught to make an objective assessment before coming to any conclusion. Is MOE able to post the information online so that everyone can make their own assessment? That would be fair to all parties.

Having watch how the new exco conducts and carried themselves at the press conference, I wonder if they really have what it takes to be a good leader?? They really held leadrship roles in big corporations? Just wonder what kind of followers they are attracting into AWARE. They seem determined to cling on to power. Looks like the COOS congregation will turn up for the voting. If this is the case then very worried that it becomes a religion issue. Hope the appropriate government body can make a stand before it get out of hand.

TOC didn’t “start” anything. They just reported the painfully obvious and followed up on public interest. If you can count beyond your number of fingers, tabulate the comments on the issue so far – there is public interest. Frankly, I am a journo myself and I think TOC is doing just the bare minimum, when being online should give them the mobility to do more. (Speaking of which, have you noticed how Josie and Ong prefaced some of their responses in their first interview with “honestly” and “frankly”? It’s so goofy, it’s almost cute.)

In the AWARE shenanigans, homosexuality is a secondary issue to me, if I read M.Ong right, it is only the tip of the iceberg.

Ong: “I came into the picture because somebody told me that something is happening that affects children and I am a mother of three children. I don’t want my children to say that oh, it’s all right to go and experiment with homosexuality, to experiment with anal sex, to experiment with virginity or the pill or even pre-marital sex”

If there is anything I hate more than ignorance, it’s indoctrinating and misinforming the vulnerable i.e. youths.

I don’t have statistics. But what I do have is a laundry list of very reputable organizations who will laugh off some of the new exco hillbillies’ contention that sexual orientation is a choice: The American Medical Association, The American Psychiatric Association, The American Psychological Association, The American Psychoanalytic Association, The American Academy of Pediatrics and The National Association of Social Workers. (Source: For the Bible Tells Me So)

To mirror HT’s “coming out” (don’t we all love that phrase?), I am mildly homophobic I admit, BUT I know that’s the irrational xenophobia and cultural upbringing in me talking, and bigotry is for simpletons who cannot see beyond the dim corner of their universe. MY course of treatment is LEARNING more about things I don’t understand. Not via magical decrees, mind you.
I suggest you do the same. But if you don’t that’s fine, you are in good company, your intellectual (un)equals “Curious”, “Plinth” etc are all “coming out” at the same time as Thio.

smallvice585 #92, plagiarism?

Agence France-Presse – 4/9/2009 4:04 AM GMT
Singapore’s born-again Christians thrive in tough times
Believers gather at the New Creation Church every Sunday for upbeat services conducted in ultra-modern surroundings that are helping make Christianity the spirituality of choice for Singaporeans.

The venue, a plush 1,200-seat auditorium equipped with state-of-the-art audiovisual systems, is on the third floor of an upmarket shopping mall in the city-state’s business district.

“Say not what you can do for God, but what God has done for you,” preacher Lawrence Lim told a rapturous congregation during a recent service which opened with rousing hymns played by a seven-piece Christian rock band.

“Amen,” the churchgoers replied in unison.

Singapore, a predominantly ethnic-Chinese Buddhist society of 4.6 million, has seen a boom in recent years in born-again Christian movements, which experts said people perceive as modern institutions reflecting their personal aspirations.

While Taoism and Buddhism are the traditional belief systems in Singapore, most people adopt them as a matter of birthright, rather than choosing to follow them as spiritual life codes.

“Those who have converted (to Christianity) were probably not very entrenched in their original faith,” said Mathew Mathews, a sociologist at the National University of Singapore.

“People want to move out from traditional concepts of religion to a more ‘classy’ image with things which mirror our popular culture and are congruent to their own works and expectations,” he said.

New converts are encouraged to bring in more recruits, helping boost the number of Christians in Singapore.

According to a 2000 census of Singapore’s 3.6 million native inhabitants, Christians accounted for 15 percent of the population aged 15 years and older, up from 10 percent in 1980.

Buddhists and Taoists accounted for 51 percent in 2000, Muslims 15 percent and Hindus four percent. The rest belonged to other religions or were atheist.

Singapore might be in the midst of its most severe recession in history but Christian churches led by charismatic ministers seem to be weathering the storm well.

The New Creation Church, with its slick audiovisual presentations and interactive services, is clearly benefiting from the trend — with 18,000 members, it is probably the most financially successful of the new churches.

It expects to move into a purpose-built 62,000-square-metre (667,000-square-foot) complex in 2012, with the project budget of 120 million Singapore dollars (80 million US) largely funded by members’ contributions.

Now under construction in a high-tech district, the new church complex will boast retailers, food and beverage outlets, two amphitheatres and a 5,000-seat performing arts auditorium.

During one giddy eight-hour period in February, the church raised 19 million dollars from four Sunday services, and believers are heartened by the support.

“There are a lot of people who are willing to contribute a lot more, so that’s why the amount became so big,” says 21-year-old student Ng Yiling.

Responding to criticism that the money could have been better spent, Ng said: “The church didn’t force us to do it. In the end it’s our money, it’s up to us how we want to spend it.”

The church and its businesses, which include two child development centres, a travel agency and a diversified firm called Rock Productions, declared assets of 146 million dollars in a balance sheet dated March 31, 2008.

It is going ahead with overseas missions and global “outreach” programmes, with members able to register for trips to Vietnam and Thailand scheduled over the next six months, according to the church website.

City Harvest Church, another Christian church boasting healthy finances, has not seen any reduction in donations since the onset of the economic meltdown in late 2008, according to a spokesperson.

“Donations are both a personal and a private choice of our members. We believe that as the church helps to meet the different needs of our members, they will continue to give free-will donations to the church,” the spokesperson said.

The church, which declared 79 million dollars in assets in its balance sheet for January 2006-June 2007, says on its website it has 45 affiliate churches and 44,000 members in the Asia-Pacific region as of 2008.

Locally, it claims a following of 26,000 and conducts its weekly Sunday services in a 2,300-seat complex built eight years ago for 48 million dollars.

Indeed, tithing appears to be thriving among Singapore’s Christian community, despite official forecasts that the economy will shrink by up to five percent this year.

Reina Lee, 21, a member of Faith Community Baptist Church, tithes 80 dollars from her monthly income of 800 dollars, and said she is not thinking of reducing the amount even in the current economic climate.

“As a Christian, we give a proportion of what God has blessed us with as an act of thanksgiving and wanting to bless His ministry,” she said.

“It is also an act of faith, that we believe that God will provide for our needs in this time of recession.”

on a side note, the media and public attention on this eclipsed all other headlines during this period. I dun think star awards by tcs will generate as much interest and discussions.

During one giddy eight-hour period in February, the church raised 19 million dollars from four Sunday services, and believers are heartened by the support.

One Person defended this recently in the news

Indeed, tithing appears to be thriving among Singapore’s Christian community, despite official forecasts that the economy will shrink by up to five percent this year.

Usually 10% or more of monthly salary is given to the church.

Zefly #101

How medieval of you, I would go for Xenu, the galactic warlord that Tom Cruise and John Travolta believe in.

Hold on a minute! My mistake, that one is still in circulation. No teasing, will hurt feelings.

“As for TSM, someone (an avid comics buff) told me seriously that all evil persons are doctors and all heroes are Captains, eg Dr Doom, Dr Octopus, Dr Fu Manchu and Captain America.”

Doctor Strange is a good guy. Oh wait. ‘Strange’ is another word for ‘queer’. Those sneaky bastards at Marvel Comics! How dare they sneak in the suggestion that the only good doctors are queer! Another gay agenda! I think Marvel Comics should be banned for promoting the gay lifestyle! (And did you see how tight those spandexes are, especially around the groin?)

QUOTE
Hey, parents, you better know what’s happening, you better know what’s happening…I talked to parents, I said, you better do something about this, otherwise your daughter will come back and say, “Mum, I want to marry my girlfriend” or your son will say, “Dad, I want to marry my boyfriend.”
UNQUOTE

What a load of nonsense.

You don’t become a homosexual unless you are genetically programmed that way.

If any of her friends’ children are that way inclined, she will be very sorry indeed that the old committee is no longer around to help.

Dr Thio SM and Josie Lau – you should confine your moral high grounds to your church, family and friends. We live in a multi-religious society. Who are you to be so judgemental? You made the whole saga seems like the new guard has usurped power from the old guard.

sllim #108 was addressed to socrates #88 (how auspicious of you)

#102) Burong on April 25th, 2009 10.13 pm

Aha, the troll cometh…disguised as a bird.

“While you personally do not like gay lifestyle, you condone it. That is a problem.”

Well, it’s your problem, not mine. Go suck an egg.

“Fence-sitter do not have a country. You either lose it or you own it. You have to chose. Life depended on good level headed decisions not a bamboo capable of bending backwards.”

Yup, you’re right…all these fundies who are like sheep with no brains…following the orders of one master planner.

“The new committeee had hardly begun their work and you are jumping around like a monkey. Becos 3-4 of them happen to come from same church, doesnt mean they lack civic consciousness. You started to speculate their work forward.”

My dear birdie, they are a bunch of liars and they don’t have a clue as to what to do or say. The media and everyone else is having a field day laughing at them and only a birdbrain like you can’t see that. At the press conferences, they are like deer in the headlights. And their collective brain is not even in the Exco. Sorry, really can’t agree with you here..they have indeed done a lot – and none of it is good. That’s why anyone with half a brain and a little bit of conscience will object to them. – I’m sure that excludes you.

“Give the new committee time to reinforce and galvanise their objectives. They will be inclusive and pro-family. They can teach you HT a couple of things about staging a coup to advance your deep concern and not be a armchair writer who have no helm.”

Er…how do you galvanise an objective? Must be some new fundie metallurgy technique. But here…, instead of a little birdie told me, let me tell this little birdie a secret : I am doing something about it…..but no details, sorry,…it’s a secret agenda…hehe.

“Specially for you, HT go find a helm ( a sincere cause for humanities) to advance your cause. Get a copuple of guys/gals & form a coup. Example why not try form a committee to clean up HDB Kopitiam toilets.”

Yeah, yeah, the usual puerile insults – great intellectual we have here, Haw! What a birdbrain.

I believe Dr Thio either hasn’t truly comprehend the whole idea of Sexuality or she is a whole lot more ignorant than most of us. The worst mistake a person can make is to think that they are awake when in fact they are still dreaming. Obviously she hasn’t done enough research to understand that it’s not exactly a choice of life-style, or she simply thinks she is god. What right has she to judge. Education is passing on in formations and knowledge, of facts. Not your believes. Every child has a right to choose and deem what’s best for them with all cause and consequences known. That is education. What Dr Thio did was doctrinal and not education. She wants to play god. God teaches his children love and compassion. Spread love and bring his children to him. What Dr Thio did was teaching his children that it is okay to judge and discriminate. Create hatred and angst amongst people who are different. is that Christ-like? Are you a devil in disguise? Do not use his name to do your will. I am ashamed. Trust in him, let him be the judge. Do his will, not yours. He comes in PEACE.

John Locke, a great political philospher of the 18th century defined a madman as someone “reasoning correctly from erroneous premises”.

So who are the mad ones here? Thio and gang or Constance and her gang?

Both I say.

As a secular guy in the British tradition, I believe that Thio’s premises are faulty.

But as a conservative, I think Constance’s bald assertion that homosexuality is normal without any qualification on the role of homosexuality within a given society is just as bad.

#A Tan

Where did Constance Singam say that homosexuality is normal? And its not whether it’s normal or AB normal. The point is tolerance.

No one is mad here. The Master Planner (hah, its not Doctor Octopus after all – for all spiderman buffs out there) has said in not so many words, that this was thought out and planned. Its a ruthless scheme, carefully planned to take over a secular tolerant civic organisation simply because they disagree with its program of inclusiveness. All their accusations of AWARE being diversified (oh, sorry, that was changed to being a single focus later) and attempting to create more gays are simply not true.

Can anyone of the pro-new exco say that Josie and her cohorts have been honest and open?

I mentored Josie Lau to select Focus on the Family to receive the DBS charity fund donated by the public.

Mentor Thio

Why so many ppl are interest in AWARE business. 5000 plus hit!

Non of our Business! Other ppls Business!

Josh #116,

Amen to that! Whatever happen to “Thou shall not bear false witness”?

Never expect that most will agree that this person have lived a full life, yet to have come so far in life and be a hypocrite.

Unbelievable.

It’s actually quite sad to see Mother and Daughter Thio ranting on about homosexuals and lesbians taking over the world. From the lawyers I’ve talked to, Mama Thio is highly regarded when she’s not touching on this issue. Apparently, she was Dean at the NUS Law Faculty when she was in her mid-thirties. Daughter Thio is also smart enough to get her degree from Oxford.

So, if they’re so smart, why are they making downright irrational arguments. It’s as it, homosexuality is wrong therefore we need to keep it illegal. Please, SHOW US THE EVIDENCE.

Wouldn’t you be more convinced that they were rational people if they could show you some hard facts about why being gay or lesbian is bad for you? Imagine if they could show beyond a shadow of doubt that showing a film with two lesbian lovers could actually make people want to be lesbians.

Thus far, these brilliant legal minds have done nothing of the sort. At best their case is circumstantial, at worst criminally irresponsible. I am no fan of the gay and lesbian community but I don’t see why both mother and daughter insist on mocking the concept of law with their groundless rants.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pressparliament/pressreleases2009/statement.aspx

2009 press release

The Royal College shares the concern of both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association that positions espoused by bodies like the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) in the United States are not supported by science. There is no sound scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Furthermore so-called treatments of homosexuality as recommended by NARTH create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.

The Royal College of Psychiatrists holds the view that lesbian, gay and bisexual people should be regarded as valued members of society who have exactly similar rights and responsibilities as all other citizens. This includes equal access to health care, the rights and responsibilities involved in a civil partnership, the rights and responsibilities involved in procreating and bringing up children, freedom to practice a religion as a lay person or religious leader, freedom from harassment or discrimination in any sphere and a right to protection from therapies that are potentially damaging, particularly those that purport to change sexual orientation.

In 1973 the American Psychiatric Association concluded there was no scientific evidence that homosexuality was a disorder and removed it from its diagnostic glossary of mental disorders. The International Classification of Diseases of the World Health Organisation followed suit in 1992

Dr Thio has a right to express her opinion as a parent who is against CES and its content about homosexuality.

But shouldn’t she direct the questions and effort in getting answer from MOE, who is the relevant authority in approving the program to be used in School?

Should she approach her MPs to bring this up in parliament for debate? or she is thinking that MOE or the parliament is also infiltrated by Gays and Lesbians activists.

122) Tang Li on April 27th, 2009 1.33 am

While they may be highly intelligent and proficient in their own areas of expertise, given their achievements, that does not mean that they are any wiser or compassionate than anyone else in other areas of life.

Being intelligent does not mean that one is automatically wise and kind. Intelligence simply multiplies the effect that an individual has (based on his or her personality) on the world around.
If that individual is intolerant and hateful,
- holocaust
- genocide
- repression

If that person is wise and compassionate,
- peace
- tolerance
- happiness

Beware the smart criminal. He’ll get you…. and get away.

i think the comment’s bit sardonic; muslim brethren = muslim radicals.

Before this case blew up I must admit that I was not aware of AWARE(excuse the pun) But since I now do n as a father of 2 grown up men(32 n 30) I am very concerned that obviously a small minority group’s view and who accept same-sex practices are seen to dominate the majority of Singaporean’s conservative heterosexual preferences n I want to add my voice to support the new AWARE exco members. In fact I have asked my wife to join AWARE n vote to support the new group!

the day our society fragments & polarise into warring factions we know who are the leaders…

this gay issue really worked like the new Exco has (in my opinion) hoped for, create a divide that pits 1 side against another without approaching the subject in an objective matter. & they stand to gain most from “mobilizing” others to fight for their personal cause.

the decades of emphasis on educating the minds have largely gone to waste, study for so many years, now all the “smarts” do is fight a fight without a second thought?

other countries should think harder adopting our education system….

128) william yeo on April 27th, 2009 9.06 pm

Before this case blew up I must admit that I was not aware of that a bunch of religious bigots are attempting to foist their beliefs on others But since I now do n as a father of three young children I am very concerned that obviously a small minority group’s religious beliefs are seen to dominate the majority of Singaporean’s nutcases n I want to add my voice to support the old AWARE team members. In fact I have asked my wife to join AWARE n vote to support the old AWARE!

128) william yeo on April 27th, 2009 9.06 pm

How have the old guard actually “dominated” anything?
If you haven’t even heard of them before, I hardly think that you (especially you) could imagine that their views are quite so influential.
Logical fallacy.
Or did that twist your brain into a pretzel?

re 130) mastodor & 129) HT

post 128) is mice is nice wan, post 127) is william yeo wan.

you both asking post 127) or 128)?

lol, lol…. -.-”

haha… realised that after I posted, mice is nice. Sorry ’bout that.
^^”

IDear Admin, I agree Ark’s post should be deleted immediately. He is making a unnecessary and dangerous secular remark. It show his disregard for multi racial and religious society we are living in,

Pierre,

Which comment are you referring to?

Thanks.

There is no reason to delete Ark’s posting. He is being balanced by saying that both, Christian as well as Muslm fundamentalists / extremists should not be tolerated and I fully agree with his sentiment.

PLEASE SEE BELOW NEWS AND IT WILL TELL YOU ABOUT DR THIO.

MOE seeks clarification on claims on AWARE’s programmes

SINGAPORE: The Ministry of Education (MOE) has contacted Dr Thio Su Mien, who is the “feminist mentor” to the new exco in the Association of Women for Action & Research (AWARE), to clarify the claims she was reported to have made on the organisation’s sexuality programmes.

In a statement, MOE said it had not received any complaints from parents or from Dr Thio about the programmes.

The AWARE saga has stretched out over the past weeks and Dr Thio’s views have been reported widely. She has been quoted as saying that on AWARE’s sexuality programme, homosexuality is now regarded as a neutral word, not a negative word.

Giving details, MOE said 11 secondary schools engaged AWARE to run workshops on sexuality last year. The organisation also conducted assembly talks on topics such as self esteem at a few schools.

Schools that engaged AWARE found its programme content appropriate for their students, adhering to MOE guidelines.

Speaking to reporters at a visit to Yishun Town Secondary School, Senior Minister of State for Education S Iswaran said sexuality education is taught primarily by teachers, but schools have the flexibility to bring in other organisations.

“The guiding principle for this is very simple. It uses the family as the basic building block, as the basic foundation, and helps the students make values—based decision on the whole issue of sexuality and in a manner that’s sensitive to the multi—racial, multi—religious environment.

“Clearly, there are different perspectives in our society, so MOE takes a very deliberate and cautious approach,” he said.

The Education Ministry added that if parents know of an instance where these guidelines have not been adhered to, they should go directly to the ministry.

I am a Christian but I totally disagree in using such methods to force Christian standards on others not mentioning the whole nation. Singapore is not a Christian country so we have to be considerate and think about what other will feel when we shaft values that they do not believe, into their throat.

This will not only cause religious conflicts and it may develop into a larger scale dispute and battle. I really hope the 2 pastors will constrain themselves and their church members. Their actions will eventually affect the whole Christian society and we all have to suffer because of their personal agenda. Yeap, they will be known from now on and whatever happened they will be know as heroes.

Please remember that it is the process and the methods we used that is the most important. Jesus did not come as a warrior, he came to love. Let love changes people and not violence and force. You resort to lying, telling half truth, playing with words….. In all you did not tell the truth and hide your intentions. You practice deceitfulness and teaches your followers to do the same. Do you think God is with you? Never!!! “Not by might, not by power, but by my spirit” … remember? You are using your own wisdom and devices to trick and attacked people when they are off guard … do you think this is the act of a true Christian. May God have mercy on you all, you and your church. The church must stand for the truth even nobody believes in it. Do you stand for the truth? Or is result more important to you than the souls of others. This is my question. Come back to the Lord or you will fall into the pit that you dug for others. REPENT !!!

re post #132) mastodor on April 29th, 2009 9.59 am

dun worry, not offended. good to clarify. we all make typo mistakes, i do have a few myself… -.-”

I am puzzled by some the comments made depicting the “takeover” of the new guard as something sinister, evil, shameful, etc.

In running for office for any organisation, there is always a strategy. Nobody goes in to run for office with no strategy in mind. Heck, even the PAP strategises their move in elections. So what is wrong with the new guard saying that yes, they wanted to come in to office to oppose what they perceive as a watering of certain values. Yes, this was planned. Yes, they encouraged likeminded people to join in to support them. What is so illegit about it ?

Anti-homosexuality is not the same as anti-homosexuals. What the new guard is taking issue is the propagation of homosexuality as an alternative lifestyle. This is different from taking issue with gay individuals. If the new guard were to openly banished or chastise individuals for being gays or even say that AWARE membership is closed to gays, then yes, the new guard would be way off the line and should be whacked for taking such a stand. But the fact of the matter is that they have not done so. This is similar to SM’s take on homosexuals in civil service. PAP did not say that homosexuals cannot join civil service. They allow it. But neither did they go around holding them up a shining example open mindedness of civil service. (i.e they accept them as persons but not their lifestyle). So what the hell is the big hoo-hah about.

Old guard not happy ? Not happy about what ? That they got kicked out ? Then plan your own strategy and kick the new guard out. THis is what democractic process is. Not happy about old guard did not state their intentions clearly ? Hello, if you are playing chess, do you tell your opponents what method you are going to use to win ? Not happy that they are anti-gays ? Hey, they are not anti-anybody. THey are anti-lifestyle.

Let’s look at issues objectively before pass unfair comments .

Joe: They wont turn down lesbians in trouble. They will help them. By help it means they will counsel them to take away their pain and make them pro-family men-loving reproductive useful members of the Christian society. If you dont comply, AWARE would have failed to helped you despite all their good intensions to do so. In itherwords, what has aware become? A satellite arm of Choices Ministry. You dont have to be a clairvoyant to see that this is whats going to happen.

Next target, AFA, and now for the faggots.

Modernist : Interesting point. YOur view is certainly not articulated by all the anti-new guard posts i see here. That is what prompted me to write what i have written.

My response to your view is that until that happens, then there is just cause to take them to task. Perhaps publicise or possibly vote them out of office with another new group. But until that happens not before. Otherwise, we are just jumping to conclusions with no basis.

Joe: If the new guard is so concern about family issues and felt that AWARE has not done a good job, they can engage in dialogue with the leadership, why such a sudden action of taking over the whole organization? In fact they can even start a new organization with whatever values they want to influence the public, whether or not the people response to them then it depends. In this case they have not experience in managing AWARE (not more than 5 months in AWARE), but they wanted to take over and think their values will steer AWARE back to what they think should be the direction.

When you drive you car on the road, even if I am a traffic police I cannot tell you where to turn and where to go straight because I was not there when you decide where you want to go. With barely 5 months in AWARE and they want to steer it and decide which direction it is suppose to go? I am puzzled.

It is like asking a foreigner who just came to Singapore for 5 months. We make him a Singaporean and put him into politics and make him our Prime Minister and let him run the country. Do you really think he can do it.

As I mentioned in my previous post. I am a Christian but what they are doing is totally not becoming as a Christian. There reason for such an outbreak of concern is not that people are not appreciative of the democracy of this nation, it is how they entered into the organization which have 25 years of accumulated experience serving the public and accusing them of steering away from their original objective. What do they know about the original objective, they were not there for 25 years.

They tried to give excuses for their actions, they can give you political reasons for what they are doing. Come to the very truth, they have every intention to take over and propagate their private and selfish agenda. If you have followed the whole saga, you will find out that there are people who told of how the pastors of their church sent out emails to their members to ask them to join AWARE to support the new EXCO …. what proof do you still need?

Can you imagine someone jump out of nowhere and start telling people if he was the PM of Singapore 30 years ago, Singapore would have been better than now. Will you believe him or will you laugh at his arrogance. I laughed at their arrogance and felt pity for them because they not only lied in numerous occasions and still pretend that they are doing society including the Christian society a good deed.

Something for sure, whether what is the outcome of the EOGM on Saturday. The new EXCO will still emerge as heroes for Christ by many. They will become famous, respected and look upped by many Christian. This is exactly what it is all about.

Concern for the society? Care for everyone? Not to me!!!

I am ashamed to be call a Christian if that is what Christianity all about.

Pardon my language!! I am not as eloquent as some of you.

Joe: In fact, Feminist Mentor used the word pain when she was describing lesbians. SO read in between the lines, it is obvious that in their upcoming mission they will help all women. all inclusive, regardless of sexual orientation. But they will be a satellite arm of the Choices Ministry tasked to reform AWARE to become pro-family.

In other words, successful infiltration of a secular organisation by subversion to further their narrow religious dogma and beliefs. So I have to disagree with you my dear friend, Joe. Such conduct, which I believe involve the use of lies and covert hijacking of membership, whilst on its surface appear legitimate, they are deplorable. I dont know how they sleep at night after lying on national TV saying, “Oh we dont know each other before this” when they clearly answered the clarion call of their feminist prophet Thio and their Pastor who says “We must ensure that the nation does not cross the line drawn by God.” And all these fuss, becos they dont want to see a generation of lesbians!

138) joe on April 29th, 2009 4.36 pm

Most unfortunately, you’ve been successfully smoked by the smokescreen that the new guard threw up; the homosexual issue.
While this is something to be concerned about (especially considering the disturbingly homophobic letters to the straits times from thio and gang before the aware saga), what is even more disturbing is the way the new guard took over.
to summarise:
1) sudden takeover without any dialogue and discourse.
2) agenda had to be guessed at and dug up by press before new exco says anything
3) takeover of the secular civil society was planned by a single group of christians
4) the new guard are incompetent, inexperienced and have integrity issues
5) the new guard takes over aware and it’s resources (built up painstakingly over 24 yrs) and starts firing all the staff who run aware’s programmes for women in need
6) the new guard lies about their affiliation, lie that the takeover was not planned…

The new guard consists of liars and homophobes who will resort to hostile acts to silence all who disagree with them.
And if they eventually win their way, the precedent of them curtailing the freedom of civil groups to remain secular and continue with their activities will be set.
Who, then, will they attack and attempt a hostile takeover of?
Buddhist societies?
Moderate churches?
Clan associations?
Add to that the fact that Dr Thio has an intolerant daughter who is an mp… and the ramifications get more dire.

thanks for the comments to my post

i am still mulling over the objections that all have raised. if i may summarise, the unhappiness articulated so far are :

(a) the manner in which the takeover is done. One can say it is covert hijacking, others will say it is strategising. Tomatoes , tomartoes.

b) New guard not experienced, incompetent, etc.. hmmm that’’s what they say about obama didn’t they ? Maybe we should let time be the judge and kick them out when they really cock it up.

c) firing old staff – hmmm, when obama took office, did the other office holders change ? Rice replace by Clinton, etc, etc. Any bosses could fire anyone for any reason. I was given a month’s notice in my last job and ask to leave. The reason my boss gave was that “we don’t need you anymore!”. I felt like shit but i couldn’t take legal action cause he has every right to do so.

d) new guard lied about not knowing each other when in fact all were from the same church – mmm, ok they lied. Would it have made any difference if they had said so from the start ? maybe, maybe not..

e) They will push their values and will attempt a hostile take over of other societies, buddhists, clans, etc – i think that is abit far fetched. Granted that could happen. Heck, they could even all scheme to form a political party and overthrow PAP. The onus is for all to be vigilante and make sure that this doesn’t happen. but there is hardly any basis to accuse them now, is there ?

f) New guard should form their own party – Yes, they could, (somebody suggested BEWARE!, that is a good one!) but they could also do what they have done now, take over AWARE. No right or wrong here, is there?

I am neither for the new guard or against the old guard. In all honesty, I just find that the objections and unhappiness i have read so far have not be articulated very well. It is clear that old guard is “buay song”" and feelings have been bruised because they have been kicked out (albeit in a insidous way) . Maybe the whole saga is just it – bruised egos and nothing more

Joe. It is clear you are for the new EXCO so do not say you are neither. You have chosen to be blind and have refused to accept the truth that has been brought before you. OBAMA did not hijack or strategised any devices to throw the government out. He went in like any normal candidate and he got elected. Did he ask like Chinese, Singaporean, Indonesian, Russian, …… etc to go and became an American to vote him in? No right!!! He has no need to sack anybody because in OBAMA case, the BUSH administration automatically have to leave.

I am surprise you are okay if someone lied to you. You are really a good guy. Too good to be true. And you really think they are going to stop at one…. you are so naive. History have taught us, one is never enough. Have you forgotten, OBAMA’s vice president is Hilary Clinton, she has tons of experience and his administration are not new birds as well. PLEASE GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT. At least they have been in American for very long. The new EXCO, they have been in AWARE for not more than 5 months. Unless you tell me you have proof that they have been watching AWARE for 24 years. UNLIKELY. OBAMA also cannot go to another land to start another USA but the new EXCO can go start another organization …. maybe BEWARE.

That’s the difference. Your example is a lousy one.

Stop making excuse for the new EXCO,

Pardon me asking are you a member of COOS?
Are you somehow involved in this whole saga?

we are not some war moggering people driven by irrational (even imaginary) fear. MOE has stated its stand on the issue.

if a bus driver is driving rather slow, that does not give me the right to yank the driver out of his seat, in doing so i endanger the safety of other passangers on board, not to mention other vehicles & padestrains.

“violence is not an option!”

if talk fail, counselling sessions are in order! lol.

*shudder, shudder*

-.-”

It is sad that the Joel has now gone personal (eg. are you a member of COOS?
Are you somehow involved in this whole saga?).

I am neither. I am not even a Christian. One can have a objective opinion about issues without having to be linked to either camp. . i have said earlier that what prompted me to write is the comments i have been reading in the website.

Everyone is angry, i understand. I just want everyone to think through clearly what they are angry about.

Heck, I was angry today because it started to rain when i leave my house and no one told me about it. But can i start blaming everyone around me ?

I think i have said enough. Let’s hope good sense prevail in all of us.

I am sorry I became personal but your comments has no base and your examples are not relevant. Yet you still keep commenting against the old guard. You can say all you want that you are neutral but you are not.

From the comments that you have written, you have not been fair and just. Even the blind can tell you are on the new EXCO side. Maybe you do not notice it or you have other agenda in writing all this comments. So that got me thinking whether you are connected in any way. You opinion is very subjective …. not objective at all.

When Hitler try to conquer Europe and kill the Jews, he said it is to clean up the world and to do so he must exercise force to take over control so he declared War. He killed millions of Jews in the name of redirecting the world because he sincerely felt the world has gone wrong and he has the answer and he will lead the world into a new world order that will make the world a better place. Sound familiar?

Joe, do you now understand why we felt that way we felt? Naturally inside us we felt something is amiss here and as history tells us, when we try to force our values and ideas on others, innocents have to suffer. There is one word used for people who do that “DICTATORSHIP”

We do not want that to happened here. You adopted the attitude of wait and see, but if we do not seize the problem now when it spread it will be too late. We are only doing our bits here to warn and for-warn people of what is the possible future if we allow this to happen.

You are telling everyone just watch and see the show and not to make too much of a fuss over it. It is between them and let them handle it and we should just ignore it and do nothing.

Joe, you are not facing the fact and you are not even try to listen to what others have to say. You are not objective at all, you are just indifferent. You don;t care because maybe it doesn’t touches your skin.

Joe, there is only one word to put the issue to rest – LIES, or if you prefer a few words, THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TRUTHFUL.

If you see lying as part of the strategy (mind you, you equate it to the PAP in battle – hope the PAP doesn’t hear you for insinuating that lying is ok), then I have nothing to say except that to most of us, lying discredits the liar. Whatever else the liar say and do afterward has no more value.

joe #144,

“For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.” – H. L. Mencken

As mentioned on her legal firm’s website,
http://www.tsmplaw.com/dr-thio-su-mien-phd-london-directormenu1-60
even though she looks like an auntie, Dr Thio is a high profile lawyer and former dean of Law Fac, no less.

What I can’t understand is how someone like that can be so narrow-minded and illogical. Her statements show that she has high contempt not just of children’s ability to think for themselves, but also for their parents, and by implication, society as a whole.

The new video will speaks for itself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAAEusdEKxY&feature=channel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPF-cgJyOpI&feature=channel

Watch it

144) joe on April 29th, 2009 10.51 pm

(a) the manner in which the takeover is done. One can say it is covert hijacking, others will say it is strategising. Tomatoes , tomartoes.

Let’s say you find a man in your house in the dead of night who’s trying to be silent, wearing a mask and holding a club. Strategy? sure, but to what end? Pretty obvious that he’s up to no good… certainly not trying to help you.

b) New guard not experienced, incompetent, etc.. hmmm that’’s what they say about obama didn’t they ? Maybe we should let time be the judge and kick them out when they really cock it up.

HAHAHA… Obama? talk about lousy analogy… Obama has a very experiexed team behind him and he himself was involved in politics long before he became president.
Let me ask you: would you hire a serial kleptomaniac as a security guard and wait for him to “cock up” before doing anything?

c) firing old staff – hmmm, when obama took office, did the other office holders change ? Rice replace by Clinton, etc, etc. Any bosses could fire anyone for any reason. I was given a month’s notice in my last job and ask to leave. The reason my boss gave was that “we don’t need you anymore!”. I felt like shit but i couldn’t take legal action cause he has every right to do so.

sure, it’s legal. You’re perfectly right. But don’t forget that the new exco knows peanuts about how aware is run. Not to mention that the full time staff are the ones who actually run the day to day things. It’s obvious to anyone with the smarts of a concussed baboon that they’re trying to destroy aware before they’re kicked out.

d) new guard lied about not knowing each other when in fact all were from the same church – mmm, ok they lied. Would it have made any difference if they had said so from the start ? maybe, maybe not..

Ok, they lied? so you like leaders who are habitual liars? Isn’t lying a sin? heh. ’sides, no right-minded person wants his leaders to be liars.

e) “They will push their values and will attempt a hostile take over of other societies, buddhists, clans, etc – i think that is abit far fetched. Granted that could happen.”

I was exaggerating so as to emphasize the full implications of the incident.

“The onus is for all to be vigilante”

What? do you want crazy protests and civil disobedience and a free-for all for societies (like what’s happening in thailand) in singapore? that’s insane, but I guess that wouldn’t concern you.

“but there is hardly any basis to accuse them now, is there ?”

Did you just completely contradict yourself?

f) New guard should form their own party – Yes, they could, (somebody suggested BEWARE!, that is a good one!) but they could also do what they have done now, take over AWARE. No right or wrong here, is there?

should we all do things simply because we can? Torture little animals in our rooms because we’re stronger? Bully weaker people?
While this is my subjective opinion, I believe that they’ve been completely boorish and barbaric and unethical in attacking aware. Legal, yes. Right? I wouldn’t think so.

Having said all that, I freely admit that the old guard were complacent.
It was that complacency which allowed this to happen.
Like one of my teachers used to tell me:
every crime needs 3 things
- a victim
(aware and all it’s dependents)
- a criminal
(dolores umbridge)
- an opportunity
(aware’s complacency)

Mastodor #152,

There was neither complacency nor is it a simple case of sore losers. “Trust” was the rule of conduct.

I know it sounds old fashion and hokey, but things were done, no pun intended, in good faith.

Too bad that was taken advantage of.

I agree. It is a lesson we must all learn from. I know that many take the AGM as a yearly meeting done to satisfy the need of the Registry of societies. Many non-profit organizations just held it very informally and not treating it as an important meeting.

I know some churches treat it almost like a joke and the members never even check the accounts properly… nor were they given enough time to do it. Some SGM I attend only take 1 hour to finished.

This is a crisis waiting to happen. I hope everyone will learn their lesson.

hi everyone out there,

i remember reading about this through ST about a week back, a journalist asked the new exco team why is it that feminist mentor thio is not included in the exco team. the reply was : AWARE is too small an outfit for FM Thio, it is for newbies like josie and the gang.

i wonder what kind of outfit is big enough for FM thio? political figure who can set policies and teach us ignoramuses things which by then we totally cannot siam.

also, the impression i have from the new exco team’s reply is that AWARE to them is like masah masah (toy) for little kid to play first, later than upgrade to bigger outfit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWqp3mLz4ko

wonder where they will be heading and their views on homosexuality.

watch the video.

at 7 minutes.

nmp thio: homosexual activists often try to infiltrate and hijack human rights initiatives to serve their political agenda.

(wink wink)

funny. both senior and junior assume that homosexuals have either family issues or been sexually abused by someone.

Perhaps the parents of homosexuals should ask themselves.

My son/daughter is gay because I’m a distant parent? Because my family has issues? Because i sexually abused my son/daughter?

My analogy of Obama being accused of being inexperience by his opponents before he was elected was laughed at by my colleagues here as a ludicrous example. McCain said it, Hillary said it, etc. Whether he is indeed inexperienced is a matter of debate. But he was indeed labelled as inexperienced by those who opposed him in the primaries and in the elections.

They gave examples of Hitler’s genocide of Jews, Thailand’s civil unrest as illustrations of how the new guard will turn AWARE into. Brilliant !

Maybe we could also add in Pol Pot’s, Idi Amin, rawanda genocide, etc as examples.

The latest have it that the new guard has been kicked off at the EOGM. I am perfectly fine with that because it is the due process of democracy which would be impossible to do under Hilter, Pol Pot, Amin, Hussien…

interesting, the story of ancient world still rage in this modern, intellectual, academically small dot – who proud herself as self made success.
Which story am I refered to – it is a story of Adam equal wife name lilith and not eve.
Lilith (pronounced as Layla or lily, lilian) – who wants equally so badly that she insists that she will be on top of Adam when coming to sex. As man, Adam did not agree and there goes the fight. Lilith ran away into the desert where she seek pleasures with all demons, animals, same sex etc – you name it -all forms of sexual immorality just like the west pornography.

This transgression had been passed down till today, when old forms of sexual worshipping of theirs gods of pleasures, body discovery, arts, multi- creative arts and media, more indulgence and they have given themselves to their own imagination, forsaking their natural use instead seeking pleasure among their own sexes, man to man , female to female man and animal etc.
The only way to escape this transgression is to seek help from God and His ways for He is HOLY.
Repents! for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand
May God have mercy for those who want to be normal. It is a choice not medical or orientation.
Asia Michael

oh yeah. that makes lilith the first feminist.. 8)

The people who are on thier high horses saying that lying is a sin are also the same people saying that homosexuality is neutral Wow, real smart man, real smart….

#169 pro-joe,

obviously, I’m atheist, why would i care wat some mythic figure says its a sin. (sin being an affront to an non existent god).

science shows it to be neutral, it appears in every population in everytime, it appears in the animal kingdom. perhaps you should try google animal homosexuality or check out the scientific literature on amazon.com

she’s basically teaching people to impose personal moral values on others. I’m glad that the saga is over. But, the aftermath?..sigh. They not only gave the christian faith a bad name.. and that is very unfortunate

self-righteousness is something we really need to deal with. All of us.

I read something about her house basement being a church. Apparently, she and her husband are holding Christians event in her home basement. I read in a blog that a participant found the event creepy. Anyone heard about this?