What utter rubbish! We must REMEMBER less we FORGET!

Seems like someone’s house pet is barking now.

Isn’t the Lionel De Souza the ex-police ?

http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2005/yax-414.htm

http://www.prime.sg/Web/main.aspx?ID=1df2ed2c-30c9-48d5-9857-7c3533c71a61

Last time, when certain organization question and expose human right issues of Singapore, it is deemed as “”There is a conspiracy to do us in. Why?… They see us as a threat.”

Now, conspiracy is no longer popular “word”now and the next trendy word is “JEALOUSY” !

Accusing people of been jealousy and conspiracy when people are just finding the truth. Wow, that’s world class.

People with common senses should at least ignore letters of this kind of quality that appears in the ST forum… nonsensical piece of crap from an unshamful bird man… Wonder why craps like this get published in the ST… This bird man is advocating the abolishment of history!

Whenever I hear anyone arguing for detention without trial, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.

obviously a rich man pet barking.

Although I do not agree with the way the author singing the praise of our government, he might be right suggesting that there are indeed “unseen” forces working in the background trying to unstablise our society.

Are the Marxist similarly being influenced by some external forces? Is this what the author is trying to say?

I can literally see the $ sign in this guy’s eyes…..he would probably sell his soul for money if need be.

Any elites out there care to buy?

The best thing one can do is to ignore this fella’s rhetoric. There is no need to go down to his level and engage him. However, I wonder more about ST’s credibility for publishing this kind of letter.

ILuvSpore #7,

You don’t convict someone on hearsay. If there are “external forces” then prove it. Isn’t that what the PAP challenges its critics to do all the time – provide proof?

Why should we forget?

Same thing, why are we always bombarded with past glories of an old man who is completely different now.

This is simple. The so-called “Marxist Conspiracy” placed a very big stain on the records of our elderly statesman. With this mere mention of this event, it is always linked to him. Always.

You will realise that his “not-so-successful” policies are seldom highlighted.

When I see the name Lionel de Souza in he forum pages, I do not need
to read the content to know what he writes. He is the one the biggest
balls carriers of the PAP govt. Somehow it irks me that his simplistic naive
letters always get published in our MSMs whether its in Today or the ST.

It just tells you how low the ST has sunk when it finds it fit to publish such a letter.

This is what the fella looks like. He’s an ex-police officer and now a private investigator. So, it looks like he has many sides to butter:

http://www.yawningbread.org/arch_2005/pic-414aa.jpg

De Souza seems to think that those who want a review equates marxists or communists or whatever- and hostile to capitalism. I think the assertions are not just untrue, but a terrible distortion at least. I mean, if some of us are hostile to capitalism, then why do some of us have our own business- or have studied business in universities?

Mr. De Souza is just pressing an assertion that has almost or no factual basis and I think its a shame really. More also that ST continues to publish such stuff, and without allowing people to write in rebuts. Such articles are easy to rebut and be taken apart of. But Mr. de Souza doesn’t have to worry about that- since the censorship board at ST will assist him. And so he continues to write such articles with abandon.

Dear Mr Lionel De Souza,

We must be able to remember our past and learn to juggle whatever the troubled time brings us…..

The way your article imply’s,…. it makes it seem that someone outside of Singapore is the perparator….
I beleive TOC articles all had their authors names there….unlike the ST 20 years ago.

If the 20th or 22nd anniversary was to fall during a better time….i wonder what would be your response…..

I am surprised that you have come to the conclusion, of some being jealous…..your perspective seems skewed, coupled with emotions….perhaps the recent economic crisis is causing you a great deal of trauma….

The govt is forceful in tackling the current economic crisis, I am sure….
but to refresh your mind alittle with a bit of Singapore history…I am sure won’t hurt….

It is people like you who will bring about disgrace to an entire nation, by embracing ISA for non-issues ….with it you will bring about death on Singapore’s progress for the future….

Like what #7 has said….I feel i am wasting my time even explaining this to you.

TOC, thank you for putting up a lay observers view up….but please
Let This Issue Rest and we can move on to better isues….I see the MP’s roaring for change..I wonder what they are….

Sorry it is Walau..#9 and not #7

Being ex-police officer, did he practice “detention without trial” and love it so much because he don’t have to write so much report why a person is detained ? Wow, police have move-on power and very soon “detention without trial” ?

Lionel De Souza … he is just a pawn taking $ from PAP to do her bidding. There are so many of them around to misled and divert the public attention from the real event.

The above comments shows once again, that TOC has been misused as a platform for groundless arguments. Look at entry #19. How does he know that this Lionel De Souza received money from the PAP party to write this letter? Is he 100% sure?

Some of the articles in TOC do provide great views. However, as I see it, more and more of the readers are deliberately coming against establishment on every front. If indeed, these readers feel so strongly about things, I think they should come out of the internet and make known their feelings. This is so that a proper reply can be given to them.

Utter rubbish….to lose one’s total rights and dignity to the ISA for as long as they like without consideration of their victims’ innocence is crap and obviously against human rights. So far, the far sightedness of the government remains more to be seen. Their great loss in citigroup, ABC centres and now BoA shows utter ignorance in investment. Their paper loss have became real loss so cut with the crap that they were looking with far sighted or long term investments. When they lose so much so ppl’s money, and still can come out with “good” reasons to cover their own backside, without an outpour of anger and with awards and praise given to the culprits to ice the cake, and worst, refusing to take the blame and cut their own salaries substantially during the recession, they expect people to be happy? Of cos, the government have done a magnificent job in one thing: promoting ignorance and nonchalentness of the people while painting a rosy picture with birds chipping “happily” in the background by using the msm.

His comments reflect the effectiveness of the government policies over the years. Look at how he commended the ISA and used the ‘fear’ conspiracy to extract a feeling of gratitude to the government. Again, he failed to see that we are living on the assumption that anarchy will reign supreme without the ISA.

We are already a developed nation. It is time to develop the people critical consciousness to move into us into the next wave of human development.

Lionel De Souza, Abraham Lincoln says that “I have always thought that all men should be free; but if any should be slaves, it should be first those who desire it for themselves, and secondly, those who desire it for others. When I hear anyone arguing for slavery, I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally.” Just like for this case, it is no wonder why people will want you to feel the personal pain of ISA and how it disrupt your life, and see whether you will still say the same thing

“Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves; and, under a just God, can not long retain it.” A-Lincoln quote.

Lionel De Souza.?The press’ favourite apple polisher.
I remember one written about LHL’s visit to his son’s camp during
the latter’s BMT . That was a real classic in balls carrying. I puked on
my breakfast,lost my appetite after that. Now I avoid reading his letters

Lionel should be asking Sam Tan, PAP MP who said ‘A boy who is mollycoddled is a very different person from the one who is physically tough and takes spills without fear and whining,” What Lifeboats given by govt are you talking about when PAP MP also say this should not be given at all? Gahmen draw sky high wages and gives out a few crumbs to lesser mortals and then have the cheek to say such things.

I’m one of the elements that fumed on reading this bootlicking letter.

Detention under the ISA does not breach a detainee’s constitutional rights. Is it true????????

Nothing – nothing at all, while they celebrate Tain An Men massacre with a big spread.

I wonder who runs the papers, lionel de Souzas or are there no editors in SPH?

Agree with lead article why need to resurrect this thing at this time?
I wonder how many bloggers on this subject are Singaporeans and how many are paid agents????

And we see why commentary and debate here is so primitive and unsophisticated when strawmen arguments are supported willynilly.

Lionel de Souza,

You are truly a disgrace to Kevin Desmond de Souza.

That’s all I can say about you.

Your article sounded so fishy we might as well wrap it up in newspaper (The Straits Times) and serve them with chips (maybe from our IR).

To #27

I think we all know that there are indeed editors in the ST AND we also know that there are more than one who used to be in the ISD. According to one ex SPH employee friend of mine, there is a reason why they are there (especially so in the case of their political editor).

; – )

The reason why some activists and people from the civil society will never forget about this issue is due largely to the fact that these people were never given a fair trial but were detained and tortured. They were also made to make false confessions under threats. For all that they went through, they were not given any form of reparations or apologies. Our history textbooks have also denied them innocence. How can we forget? How can we let them and what they went through be forgotten? If we allow this issue to be forgotten, if we do not pass the knowledge of such injustice to our future generations and if we keep quiet, then we are really no better than some countries who have whitewashed their war crimes in their very own history textbooks.

@socrates

And why should we not be looking at the past excesses of the ISA, and review whether we still need it in this time and age?

In it’s current form there are practically no transparency and accountability to prevent it’s abuse – in contrast the original ISA during the British admin had a council to control and limit the ISA’s usage despite then being a more chaotic period.

On what basis do you come to the suspicion that there are paid provocateurs here? In my opinion, your views are equally suspicious – that you could very well be accusing others of being what you are yourself.

@loyola

There’s a saying “let he who is without sin, cast the first stone”.

Why not contribute to improve on the quality of the discourse here insteading of adding primitive, unsophisticated and unsupported criticisms of others?

Hope one day Lionel de Souza or his/her loved one are put under ISA detention see whether she/her will eat up all her words.

What happened to Ong Teng Cheong? Will TOC ever do a review on him? He was someone i greatly admired and respected.

They say he is the people’s president. Its a pity because of his sickness he quietly left like that.

@alex lew

There are several comments here that are pertinent – they expose the writer’s background, which possibly have led to vested interests affecting his neutrality on the matter. How does #19 singlehandedly make the 20 or so comments (at the point of your post) groundless?

Given that there are practically no limits to the posting of comments, if there are enough people who are pro-establishment, they can very well show their support here. If pro-gov readers feel so strongly about views on the internet, they should express themselves on the internet and let their voices be heard.

“Hope one day Lionel de Souza or his/her loved one are put under ISA detention see whether she/her will eat up all her words.”

That is very cruel. Nonetheless if that day ever come, send a petition to request him to be detained without trial for 33 years even though he commit no crime, beating chia thye poh’s 32 years world record. At least then, Lionel De Souza will be proud supporter of ISA and will be forever remember as someone who walk the talk, and talk the walk. He will be issued a medal of World Guinness Record and his article to support ISA will be put into museum.
Please Lionel De Souza, show us how good ISA is, 24hrs protection, free accomodation, free meals, open toilet concept, ?

Don’t talk abt ISA or Human Rights! What happened to Singapore Economy!
Where is the Jobs for even Degree Holders!

Job Credits is only Temprorary Solution not Permanant Solutions!

Mr De Souza is probably one of the most misguided persons around. There is no evidence to prove that the detainees were actually Marxist Conspirators. He really has no idea that the only precondition for ISA detention is Presidential satisfaction supplemented by the Home Affairs Minister’s affidavit. too

The ISA is not responsible for the peace and religious harmony that Singaporeans have enjoyed over the years. It is the somewhat effective economic policies that prevented dissent in Singapore to reach a boiling point as what we have recently observed in Thailand.

Only by ensuring the economic and social security of Singaporeans, there would be no need for Singaporeans to rebel against the Government.

Remember, remember the fifth of November:
The gunpowder, treason and plot
I know of no reason
Why the gunpowder treason
Should ever be forgot.

Dear people here,

Can we see the issue another way?

Let’s assume that there was, in fact, a Marxist conspiracy in 1987. And the Govt did not have good enough evidence to convict the perpetrators in a court of law but were convinced of their guilt in some way. The conspiracy was assessed to pose a great threat to our national security.

If you are the Govt, what options did you have?

To be fair to him, there are clearly many Singaporeans who feel the same way, even if they may not express as confidently as him.

Their point of view is that, “I assume the govt is benevolent. Therefore, whatever it does must be for the good of Singapore!”

While some of us may object to that view, they have the right to think that way.

Pretty much like the average North Korean who sincerely believes that Kim Jung II has their interests in heart.

#smallvoice585
“Let’s assume that there was, in fact, a Marxist conspiracy in 1987. And the Govt did not have good enough evidence to convict the perpetrators in a court of law but were convinced of their guilt in some way. The conspiracy was assessed to pose a great threat to our national security.”

Would you accept it if one day the police detained your love ones, and tell you that there is no evidence, but based on their conviction, your love ones are guilty?

Lionel De Souza – it is simply unbelievable for anyone to write such article. ST truly deserves 154th ranking.

to smallvoice585

Many other options besides the ISA.

1. Sedition Act
2. Arms and Explosives Act
3. Arms Offences Act
4. Banishment Act
5. Criminal Law (Temporary Provisions) Act
6. Public Order (Preservation) Act
7. Terrorism (Suppression of Bombing) Act

I like the idea of sharing information via well-known blogs like TOC .

Letters sent to the Press need not be printed due to various possible reasons.
Lets be diplomatic and just say oh, they lack the space (then how about the next day newspaper? got space? maybe, maybe not).

I am calling out to all who wrote to the Press but did not get published to try a 2nd avenue by sending these unpublished letters (for whatever reasons) to Alternative information dissemination vehicles like say a BLOG.

Like this, we help the Press overcome their ’space constraint’. At the same time, the People get the Chance to read Alternative views that may be benefitial in one way or another. I have a saying, “information is gold”.

This way , effectively, editorial censorship can be bypassed (if blog editors do not censor it).

Let voices be heard. Space constraint problem SOLVED.

yours,
Chua Mui Mui of the Loooooong beach californification

http://pkchukiss.sgblogging.com/2008/10/08/police-officers-not-allowed-to-be-human-lionel-de-souza/

above has more on De Souza in a blog commentary on his other articles.

Its always with disturbung absurdity whenever he speaks – maybe he enjoys being clobbered and has unlimited clamouring for it ……….for those past actions of his – he indeed had substance ; but of another kind lor – everyone knows which kind.

What a shameless c@#$–licking dirty GRAGO b%$&@*d

“Detention under the ISA does not breach a detainee’s constitutional rights.”

With this kind of reasoning standard, no wonder MSK was able to escape from an equally pathetic watch. Hip hip hooray ! Hip hip hooray ! Next joke please !!!

This man believes that it is OK for many innocent people to be locked up. Better than letting one single criminal get away.

He also does not have clean hands. He got into trouble with police or something like that.

By publishing this type of letter the shameless times is trying very hard to maintain its number 145 ranking. Even my dog would not poo on it.
Don’t the editors know that each time you publish this type of letter, your circulation drops.Singaporeans are no longer stupid—-don’t you care for your own credibility? Wake up shareholders of SPH!
BTW this ex-polceman is giving the police force a bad name–what TRASH he pukes.

Detention under the ISA does not breach a detainee’s constitutional rights! Who told you this, LKY?

ISA should stay for our own good!

@ TMT,

“ISA should stay for our own good”,

because LKY say so and you say so ?……kindly elaborate instead of a oneliner statement. i would be convinced if you allow us to put you in detention and experience some psychological pressure, after which you tell us it is no big deal.

Dear #43 Fat Hope,

How we judge something should not be influenced by our own personal involvement.

Dear #45 JaneOw,

If you are to secure a conviction, those charges under any of the 7 Acts you listed still need to be fully justified in court.

The ISA fulfills the need to have extraordinary powers under special circumstances.

As an illustration, you may recall those Somali pirates who were apprehended – they had to be released because the international forces did not have jurisdiction over them even though they were caught red-handed. And some of those terrorists who were released from Guantanamo – they went back and became new commanders of terrorist groups!

So, things are not so simple.

Lionel, you are so cute, i love you more whenever i read you……hahaha..

To me, there are simply two types of people. The Good and the Ugly. Good people live for goodness. Even when no one is watching, they are good by nature. They live with a heart. A good person will always be tested but eventually he/she will give in to goodness and do the right thing out of love.

Good people in my heart include Jesus, Gautama Buddha, Mohammad, Gandhi and Mother Teresa. And of recent time that I know of, J.B Jeyaratnam and Aung Yong Su Chi (sorry if I’ve wrongly spelled some names). They all have something in common, i.e they all could have lived comfortable lives but instead chose to suffer for what they believe in.

On the contrary, bad or ugly people will always display a beautiful side in public. They only want to gain at the expense of others. Conscience and morality are bad words to them. They hate to be reminded of them. They will do anything for material gains at the expense of conscience and morality but it is easy for them for they are of little weight.

In the midst of all the debates, we all know who take the risk and acted out of conscience and those, of selfishness. I believe in God and his wrath.

To the love-gifted ones, you have liberated the persecuted ones. They are now at peace and feel gratified. To the otherwise, be afraid.

To Lionel De Souza,

What are people jealous of then, if they remember the Holocaust or Japanese occupation? There are museums (latter one in Spore) reminding us of all these that happened.

smallvoice585 #41 and Kelvin Tan #42,

One cannot be convinced unless one hears something or sees something that supports the plot, called evidence. This is why trials must always take place to convict a criminal. Eg can we convict any fundamentalist Muslims as terrorists simply based on their close friendship with terrorists? If this is so, then the terrorists families and relatives will all be found guilty although they may not even agree to terrorism.

Cut down with your crap.

“The $13.6 billion stimulus package payouts, coupled with tax cuts and rebates to put cash in the pockets of consumers and resuscitate domestic demand, and generous Jobs Credit to keep companies afloat and prevent mass retrenchments, the farsightedness of the Government in using the downturn to upgrade skills, plus spending $4.4 billion on infrastructure, health and education improvement have certainly aroused jealousy against the Government’s ‘lifeboat’ packages”

If there is really something to jealous about, it is the ability of the government to squander unaccountable billions in frailing FIs and investment loser and yet pretend nothing has ever happen, and still doing hip hopping and around talkingcock and giving excuses.

Lionel De Souza,

By the way, people ‘resurrect and commemorate’ atrocities by leaders because the World must be rid of such evil, we must not let evil of this degree ever happen again!

What the hell is ST doing publishing this type of letter? The merits and downsides of the ISA is still being debated, we don’t need this type of rubbish tainting rational debates. I hope TOC will reconsider publishing in full anymore letters from this Lionel De Souza. Do not inadverantly help spread this type of narrow minded hogwash.

to smallvoice585,

You had asked for other alternatives. I gave you seven.

Now you said the 87 detainees were “special circumstances”.

What is your evidence to show that the 87 detainees were so “special” that they had to endure torture while under detention without trial?

How can anyone have a constructive discussion in this site whereby the views are so skewed towards gahmen bashing, that anyone that do not sing to this tune sure kena bashed? (this KopitiamApek included) So don’t you think these people posting on this site have behaviours mirroring what they have been complaining their gahmen should not be doing?

Just watch the bashing I will get after this post.

Sigh !

Dear #64 JaneOw,

I have no evidence whatsoever to show you or justify the incarceration of the detainees under ISA in the Marxist conspiracy affair.

My point is merely to inform that the ISA may be needed under special circumstances. I am in no way saying that its application in 1987 is fully justified.

If (this is a big IF here in TOC) we trust the Govt, it can be assumed that they must have sufficient reasons to apply the ISA in that particular instance. Whether we have that trust or not depends on our prejudices and political leanings.

@smallvoice585

This 1987 affair is one of the incidences where the application of the ISA is most questionable. In the decades since the government have had an overwhelming excess of time and opportunity to be more transparent on the matter – but the government chooses instead to withhold any and all further information from Singaporeans.

It is precisely that our government is willing and able to apply the ISA to subjects that are challenges to their rule – and yet not furnish, nor be compelled to furnish information to prove that the usage is justified, that we must review, redesign and remove if neccessary the ISA to prevent further gross miscarriages of justice.

Dear #67 AC,

I agree with your points except that I think the ISA should not be abandoned altogether.

The problem is not the ISA itself, but how the Govt applies it. If the Govt abuses it, then it has to answer the people at the ballot box.

smallvoice585 : “If the Govt abuses it, then it has to answer the people at the ballot box.”

Which is fine and fair except that the elections here are hardly ‘fine and fair’.

If the ISA powers are open to the possibility of abuse, then it should be mandatory that safeguards/independent checks should be build in to check, control and prevent abuses.

Linking transparent and accountable usage of the ISA to an event that occurs only once every 4-5 years, on a playing field that have been deliberately heavily skewed to favour the government, is naivety verging on the point of foolishness.

Hi KopitiamApek,

I took your advice to watch this space and have been watching for almost one full day already – nobody bashing you wat … relax ok?

Dear AC,

I appreciate your anguish at the perceived abuse of the ISA in 1987.

But I believe it is self-defeating to put ourselves in a state of permanent cynicism towards the Govt. Not many people have the full facts regarding the Marxist conspiracy and the Govt’s reluctance to declassify documents or provide facts of the case even after 18 years is not going to help matters.

We must realize that the very effectiveness of the ISA lies in its apparent arbitrariness and the discretionary nature of its application does not invalidate its use.

In the final analysis, it boils down to your trust in the Govt. If we have no more faith in them, we should exercise our votes accordingly.

Dear smallvoice585

You stated “If we have no more faith in them, we should exercise our votes accordingly.” If you really must know, it is because we cannot exercise our votes that we have no more faith in this Govt. Unless GRC is removed, unless the media (print & air) are liberalised and unless opposition won’t get sued for defamation, how can we trust this Govt?

@smallvoice585

The ISA voids the constitutional rights of citizens to due legal process – it seizes and incarcerates without the provision of any evidence of wrongdoing. Given that the authorities don’t even have enough evidence to charge the subjects – there exists a distinct possibility that each arrest could be a miscarriage of justice. This is why the usage of the ISA has to be carefully controlled and used as a means of last resort. This is why there have to be proper accounting and disclosures to prevent abuses and injustices from being swept under the carpet – as the 1987 case seemed to be.

I believe that one can support a government or party and still rise above blind faith and ask questions when no answers are given. Let us reserve unquestioning faith for religions.

Ps as #72 says, most Singaporeans do not get to vote thanks to our infamous GRC system. How should they exercise their rights then?

70) gemami
///Hi KopitiamApek,
I took your advice to watch this space and have been watching for almost one full day already – nobody bashing you wat … relax ok?////

I am still alive ! It’s been 3 full days. Whoeeeee !

what the report is saying, as long as the country is prosperous, they can do frame the innocence or kill.

Quote:
If there was no ISA, Singaporeans would be living on the edge because of terrorist threats and perhaps, senseless violence perpetrated by unseen foreign puppeteers controlling their local puppets to create mayhem in Singapore.

Detention under the ISA does not breach a detainee’s constitutional rights. It therefore follows that it is better that a few who choose to preach the doctrine of conspiracy to topple the legitimate government by illegal means pay for their folly by doing time under the ISA, than have the nation destroyed.
——————————————————————————————————————
You have no basis of what you wrote here. Neither does the government of Singapore. The government of Singapore has no proof to the claims that they spewed against ISA detainees. So practically the ISA is a rubber band law. a tool for the ruler to detain whoeevr they like WITHOUT FAIR TRIAL and PROOF.

Heck If I were Singaporean, I could be jailed over this comment I posted simply because the Singapore government claim that I could bring the nation into instability.

ISA is a self serving tool for the Singapore government (which never change) and was never meant as a law to serve the people of the nation.

[...] very extreme views on the ISA where there is the rabid anti-ISA mob on one hand, and the deranged ISA apologists on the other, both citing boring shallow [...]

Hi,

I saw on youtube, that some parents can teach their baby to read,. Is that true?
Sorry if this is wrong room..

Thanks
[url=http://sites.google.com/site/veryearlysignsofpregnancy/]Very Early Signs of Pregnancy[/url]

Okay, after reading all the posts, I have something to say.

I will just agree that ISA is definitely needed but detention without trial is definitely out of question because it is inhumane.

Somehow it reminds me of the drama 24 and Jack Bauer…..

I am also confused myself though, on one hand I do think that ISA are necesssary to handle “special circumstances” but what if it is being abused?

You cannot be too transparent when dealing with national security issues isn’t it?? Oh well…..

:)

[...] He had previously argued that people are stirring about ISA because they are jealous of Singapore’s “success.”. [...]

[...] eyes to the growing income divide in Singapore. We cannot claim a commitment to justice, when we dismiss the injustice that the 22 social activists suffered back in 1987 when they were detained for several months under [...]

Ong Teng Cheong, i salute you! The president that was never given a national burial and the only one because he offend the PAP! May you never be forgotten!