Are these really acceptable in Singapore’s society? Are they really taught in schools?
Anal Sex: can be healthy…
Prfe-marital Sex:.not negative but really neutral
Homonsexuality: is perfectly normal.
Please check out:
http://www.todayonline.com/articles/317311.asp

Hi , new AWARE, I can see your eagerness to justify your actions . There is no further need to wash them in public. or the dig up the skeletons. The public at large is aware of the saga . People are sitting up, for you or against you it doesn’t matter so long they are sitting up and not sleeping to the issues that are of great concern to every one especally the children, the stakeholders of the future.
Let them, the old committee continue where they have left off. All eyes are on them now. This is the best safeguard. By bickering you not only divide but also put your faith under close scruitiny and this is not what you wanted in the first place
.Let go let God. The moment has come for healing and forgiveness.

This is no longer just the new EXCO’s concern. It is now also MOE’s concern.

http://wherebearsroamfree.blogspot.com/2009/05/very-big-thank-you-to-all-parents-and.html

I think Madam Sin Gam should stop protraying herself as the victim. She and her gang of grizabellas are just as bad as Josie and her pussycats! And stop basking in your past glories…ad nauseam!

Anything short of condemning homosexuals is in line with the views of the Church Of Our Savior (COOS). The term “normal” is a very abused word. To some, it means acceptable. To others, it means common practise. Yet what the term normal actually conveys here is that homosexuals are just as ordinary people as the rest of us heterosexuals. Just like us heterosexuals, sex is not big part of their lives. Just like us heterosexuals, they also frown on public display of affection. Just like us heterosexuals, they also face challenges at the work place. Just like us heterosexuals, they are also vulnerable to the global economic crisis and swine flu.

The old guards are playing into the hands of the new guards. The old guard must come out to publicise all the other works they have been doing for the past 24 years. The new exco, has been playing the sexuality card and focussing on this card is strengthening their position day by day.

Come on old guards, AWARE is much more than this! Talk to the people and start telling them, with case references if you need to, the number of women who found help all these years.

Start questioning the new exco on what they hope to represent outside the subject of sexuality. What are they going to do with the Malay Muslim woman or the Indian Hindu woman and how they are going to help her.? Even now with all the other Christian groups distancing themselves from COOS, how are they going to be able to represent the interests of these groups?

The idea is to get them to move away from the sexuality issue, which is their only trump card.

Question also, the involvement of the pastors at COOS and how he should reconcile the fact that he did preached on support for the ’sisters’ while at the same time telling the nation that his church has no part in the saga.

Target the lies that are being dished out at every intervals. It is clear that the congregation takes after the leader, the pastor. He has no qualm about telling lies with a straight face, so do the women militants who took AWARE unscrupulously and underhandedly.

Sexuality is but only a speck of dust in AWARE’s program for women. Not many seem to be considering this, of late.

Whether the new exco wins or not is irrelevant. Just as irrelevant is whether militant GreensLemonsBananasTomatoes had a covert agenda and were using AWARE’s CSE programme as a Trohan horse.

AWARE will never touch or sexuality and anal sex again.

And other civil gps will be wary of being associated with the fruit and veggie gang. GLBT militants you sodomise yr own cause and yr friends. Sad really.

But maybe there is a God and God subscribes to COOS values, not the other way round.

Better late than never.
Glad that MOE has stated its stand clearly.

“In MOE’s sexuality education programme, homosexuality is covered in one lesson in the lower secondary package. The lesson seeks to inform students of the definition of “homosexual”, and that homosexual acts are illegal under Singapore law. It does not promote homosexuality, but follows social norms of mainstream society.”

parents who anyhow point fingers at Aware should be made to go to a school & learn to be responsible parents & know where to raise an issue.

maybe next time my children become too open to the topic of sex i will blame my pastor can or not?

amasing how far some parents actually shift their child/ren’s upbringing, school’s fault, MOE’s fault, educator’s fault, grand parent’s fault & so on,but their very own…

spare the rod spoil the child, eh, parents leh?

’socrates’ failed to include that the aware sex program is sponsored by Chen Su Lan Trust, a fund aministered by the pastor adviser of Free Community Church, a gay church. I supposed there is no hidden agenda.

Never trust an activist, old or new.

Still unclear what the new exco members are up to, but it is laughable to hear that the relaxed membership policy was because they were too trusting. These are a group of influential and powerful (old girls club) women who knows the law and the membership rules well. They didnt do a thing when it is convenient to them but whines and moan when their tai tai’s pride and ego are hurt by the takeover.

There is no evidence yet, but if the new exco members decided to impose their religious views on Aware and others, you can be certain that the potential backlash will be huge.

Let me recall what i did during my secondary school days. Though i get some facts on diesases in official lesson etc. I get most books/uncensored material from my friends. I remember even trying out how to wear a condom, there are no one to teach/guide me. Now with internet, how much can you shield them. While agreeing that some values will still need to emphased more than others, but there are communications channels everywhere rather than through undertable means. And I think the old guards had done alot of good, but they too need to be very careful of anypne who has hidden agendas (Similar to the new team). Again the new team may have good intention, but it is done in a wrong manner. Any group who had hidden agenda in key social organisation where it affects many people must be stop.

I have checked COOS’ statement and programs. Action speaks louder than words.

It seems that COOS has a program that supports people who are gay and want some help. Often quoted out of context, they believe and live the Bible in according homosexuality, lying, murder, etc as sin. It is not a COOS statement, but a bliblical statement that all true Christians, I assume, believe and uphold. (I also assume Christians believe in the virgin birth, else they should not claim ti be Bible believing Christians.)

Then, COOS goes one step further. they have a program to show that they care for gay and lesbian people! I recall Pastor Derek saying in a video in one of the blogs that they are not homophobic, that is they do not fear, or teach fear of homosexuals. They divide a line between a gay and his acts.

Is that possible? I know that some churches have what they call a prison ministry, in which they actually visit, support, befriend these criminals, especially those who are on death row!!

And i also hear that some Christian groups and churches also have similar programs for drug addicts!!!

Does the church support crime and drugs, though they work with criminals, drug addicts (and gays)? Perhaps that is what they meant when they say accepting the gay, lesbian, drug addict, criminal and helping, supporting and being a real friend when almost all others have disappeared?

If this is true, then if there are gays, people serving sentence and drug addict, and you need a friend, you have a clue now as to who to go to…..

CSE program consists of free sex workshops targeted at girls from 12 to 18 yrs sponsored by a trust headed by a pastor of a gay church …the pastor has been denounced by the other spore churches for his deviant beliefs … no guesses for his sexual preferences ???

omg! talk about subverting the young!

Some people might want to try anal sex, some do it regularly, but a school programme should not explicitly teach the kids that it is “healthy”. Most people would not think it’s “healthy” or normal, and they include people of all faiths and even the faithless. I would be disappointed if this is actually “taught” in schools. Let the gays do their anals, I don’t think it’s crossed the nation’s line that some “godly” people claim, but they shouldn’t teach that it’s “healthy” either. Some things are best left unspoken.

why is there a male chapter in a woman’s association that takes care of the interests of woman??The truth will set you free….

Re CSE manual available on web.

Don’t see any reference in it to fact that homosexuality is illegal here.

Strange omission and stranger that MoE must have OKed it. “In MOE’s sexuality education programme, homosexuality is covered in one lesson in the lower secondary package. The lesson seeks to inform students of the definition of “homosexual”, and that homosexual acts are illegal under Singapore law. It does not promote homosexuality, but follows social norms of mainstream society

Funny that That Singapore Mummy did not spot this. And beat OG with this.

So maybe CSE does mention somewhere there that homosexuality is illegal.

See the full report in TODAY on the CSE.

http://www.todayonline.com/pdf_open.asp?id=0105HNR005

Neutral does not = okay

get your definition right people. AWARE and MOE are simply trying to fix a problem that would not be there if all parents in the world were perfect.

No parent wants their kid to be in pre-maritial sex or LGBT-ism. But looking at the statistics of teenage pregs and abortions as well as STD rates among the young, its obvious some parents are not doing a good enough job inculcating values.

Even if you think your kid is perfect and a angel.. it may be her classmate who is experimenting and you know, through peer pressure or whatever make YOUR kid also experiment…

Seeing some of the reactions of these kinda parents i can understand why their own kids may not turn to them for advice when they are confused…

AWARE and MOE are providing FACTS..

I believe some kids need better reasons to not do something rather then just “Cos God Said So”

20) smallvice585 on May 1st, 2009 10.41 pm

Well done – great post! The plot thickens…

I understand that they have many foreign persons coming to preach and that many of their people went to the US for indoctrination er.. training. The Government needs to investigate this very thoroughly. To parrot all the fearmongers of the CSE, the majority of Singaporeans do not want foreign interference in our society or politics and this is for our children. OMG, to think that these religious poseurs are trying to subvert a civic society in order to influence our young children.

What is wrong with portraying homosexuality as neutral? isn’t that the middle position between those who think homosexuality is moral and those who think it is not? Why should AWARE side with the anti-gay camp?

I do not believe that homosexual acts are immoral. It is irrational to believe that any act which causes harm to no one and only brings happiness to the parties involved can be immoral. Parents who fail to see this are dumb and the schools *should* intervene to prevent their children from becoming indoctrinated in illogical and backward views.

Thio Su Mien asks whether we are going to have a generation of lesbians. I ask, are we going to have a generation of bigots with moral views inherited from the Victorian era, even as the rest of the world has progressed?

#19) jaded.sg on May 1st, 2009 10.33 pm

Aiyoh Jaded.sg, are you serious? Not the contents of your post, I mean, they’re excellent and sensible. I mean, are you serious in trying to respond with reason to these apologists and hacks? They’re all over, in every thread repeating the same tired lies (using the same nicks too, some of them). They’ve been on TOC for weeks already changing tactics when they have been debunked. But they are getting more shrill now. Many of the more reasonable posters have given up trying to answer them. Well, good luck to you.

boring stuff

1. Anal Sex:

Anal Sex has been made legal in Singapore during the recent repeal of S377.

Anal Sex is not equivalent to gay sex because anal sex is practised by some hetersoexuals; it is not practised by all gays in gay sex.

Hence anal sex should not be confused with gay sex.

2. Homosexuality

The mainstream teaching of Buddhism is that homosexuality is of the same spiritual and moral status as heterosexuality. I know this because I have attended a local major Buddhist Conference’s discussion on Buddhism and also have read various Buddhist scholars and monks’ written works on homosexuality. In our pluralistic society, AWARE as a secular organisation should be neutral. AWARE should base its position on scientific consensus (e.g. mainstream psychological professional bodies and psychiatric bodies which state that homosexuality is normal condition even though only a small percentage of human population are homosexuals) and not side with Christianity so as to be fair to Buddhism. (btw, even Health Promotion Board’s educational material, when talking about lesbianism, states that being a lesbian “doesn’t make you less normal. Each human is unique, with different likes and dislikes”. (see HPB’s education material at not http://www.letstalkaboutsex.sg/women/sexuality_1.asp)

Both HPB and AWARE’s stance on homosexuality are the correct stance on homosexuality for all truly secular organisations.

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.”

(Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)

ps: @22 HT

Sorry.. but apathy is not a path i would willingly take =)

new exco will win because they are too organised.

There’s nothing about asking people to do lesbianity from what i see.

most locals do lack critical thinking skills that is why most would gladly let our govt decide for them…

dunno leh, how? ask our govt, they know best, they said so….

the price of shifting personal responsibility. sad ah…

anyway about the topic of sex education. its unfortunate that males do not have an equivalent of Aware, to offer a more balanced input. should a program rolled out by a women’s group cater to female students only? Aware is set up to champion equal rights for women, not more rights than men. then what about male students? leave them out?

that may be where Aware has thought through, & therefore came out with a chapter for males.

that is in line with Aware’s stance- to be inclusive.

Had a look through the claims and it would be quite funny if you thought that the people putting them up were not actually educated. I mean, someone should advise the Old Guard that they shouldn’t be too comforted by the fact that the MOE supported the statement that Prof Thio never complained to them about the CSE. MOE is after all the organisation that everyone in Singapore been through and yet somehow left us with a bunch of very delusional people.

Look at the claim annal sex can be healthy or neutral. Yes, when you look at the words as they are, it’s pretty alarming. But let’s look at things on the wider picture vis-a-vis the accusation that it’s part of a homosexual conspiracy.

Studies have shown that annal sex is less healthy than vaginal sex. The anus is simply not designed to have things stuffed into it. The vagina by contrast stretches to accommodate things. That is a scientific fact. But then again, adults are funny people and like to do funny things and as long as we’re talking about adults doing things in the privacy of their own bedroom, why do we need the laws of the land involved? So, we allow heterosexual couples to practice annal sex if they so chose. Now, we can’t say that we don’t allow consenting homosexuals to do the same if we really think it’s all that bad for you, can we?

Let’s think things through. I mean I may not be the biggest fan of the gay and lesbian community but I think the Christian right needs to get their zeal in focus. Look at real issues.

Hello…I think we all kena con big time by the media…with the hidden agenda. You know what is it…stir big big….make paper thick thick ….get you and me to talk about it…talk some more…print some more. Then the readership goes up…..sell more papers….shares can go up. If not this financial meltdown….how to survive…..must make money lah brudder. Who is stupid. You and me lah. Take over Exco what is the problem??? Legal or not. Corrupt or not? Can come from same Temple, same mosque, same family….Is there a problem??? Come from same team. Of course better what….if not how to do things. Recruit your enemies and then try to improve things. Fight yourselve ah. Gundu right? Need a mentor. Preplanned. If you are serious to improve and correct things, meet the objective, you need to plan, strategies, get a consultant, guru. Not correct meh? Just think, we are all taken for a ride. People good heart try to fix society problem, let them do lah. If we can help, we should go. If we not willing, shut up and let them do lah. Fair or not. Stop wasting our time kacau people. Do something more useful like spread kindness to your friends, helping a stranger…OK. Cheers and have a wonderful day!

Another bunch of outraged parents here:

http://tampinescourt.blogspot.com/2009/04/has-moe-lost-its-mind.html

So, how do you answer your 12-year-old boy when he comes home from CSE and asks why anal sex is “neutral” and healthy when practiced with consent and condoms when it is clearly illegal under Section 377A?

Maybe the gays can boycott the government or something? Not pay taxes or something? Eh? You will find plenty of lovers in Changi Prison.

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/317322.asp

Also, follow the paper trail and check out where the funding for the CSE comes from. Separation of church and secular organizations only apply when the agenda is contrary to the pro-gay / pro-sodomizing / pro-buggery activists, eh?

Come tomorrow, in the words of Kruschev, “We will bury you!

#26) jaded.sg on May 1st, 2009 11.33 pm

“ps: @22 HT
Sorry.. but apathy is not a path i would willingly take =)”

No offence intended and all power to you Jaded. It’s just that these nutcases are like cockroaches. Stamp on one and another appears. And the thing is, they are mindless, they conveniently overlook the treachery and the lies spun by TSM and her cronies and pretend to get their glasses all steamed up over some non-existent pro-homosexual programme.

Anyway I’m going down to the EGM tomr to do my bit. Not confident as the fanatics have stacked the deck but however it turns out, glad to note that many people here are now aware of the dangers posed by these weirdos.

Its better than saying, homosexuality is WRONG. And all the confused kids have nowhere else to turn to for being persecuted. NORMAL makes more kids come out to counsellors and isn’t this better than driving our confused teens to closet themselves up?

Constance talked with queer women? This is so wrong. She should exclude them from aware.

IMHO….I think the biggest culprit in this aware unaware things is the media. They want to stir big big print many pages for what…..more people but paper, recover revenue loss due to financial meltdown so that profit can sustain and share price can go up. This is the biggest hidden agenda. For most people, what is the aware unaware things. Only few hundred members… Singapore got millions of people. Why this so important. Who got agenda. Media lah.
What’s wrong with the new Exco. They got a passion to wipe up ills in our society. Salah kah? They only want to tolong what? Sacrifice time and money. If you can help, go and join Aware Unaware lah. Don’t kling klang behind. Come from same temple, same mosque, same religion, same family, same kampung cannot kah? Why? You have to gather your kakis to really being effective in implementing change. Cannot kah. Got no party, how to govern Singapore? Got mentor cannot kah. We also have MM to help us what? Got plan cannot kah? No plan how to work? Gundu! Use your brains lah. Today, our society so many problems. People trying to help so that our next generation would not suffer too much. Cannot kah? Boreh…Come up. Don’t kena kon buy paper, talk non stop about this nothing. Get on with your life. Help a friend. Cheer up your family. Smile to a stranger. Stop wasting time. Cheers!

There’s a lot of talk around here but when the day comes just go down to Suntec tomorrow and vote those clowns out.

I can’t do that because I was born with a dick but the ladies – if you know what’s good for you – just do it.

Otherwise it would not matter how well argued your rhetoric is over here.

too bad i guy. if i ger i will sure vote against the new exco. why vote against? because skali the feminist mentor becum the minister mentor how? then singapore no more secular

both sides must compromise a lot. it’s mutual understanding that gets things done. hope aware comes out stronger after today’s re-elections.

@ 25) mutual respect on May 1st, 2009 11.32 pm

thank you for the input on HPB educational material. i explored the link and there’s similar for males as well, after this whole thing blows over, wonder if anyone will tussle with HPB re this stuff on its website?
“People in homosexual relationships are subject to the same feelings of happiness, belonging, hurt and rejection. ..”

@ 26) jaded.sg on May 1st, 2009 11.33 pm

although not a buddhist, i have a lot of respect for the buddha’s teachings, especially this kalama sutta you quoted.

Well you could listen to bozos like kena kon and they would exemplify the attitudes that Singaporeans have had for a long time. You can’t make a difference, this doesn’t involve the government.

In the historical context, very rarely has the government actually said, “we’ll let the people decide. We’ll follow the people”. Very seldom has there been an explicit invitation for people to exert their rights. This gay rights issue is one of the first.

The natural inclination for many people has always been “why is this issue in our faces? Haven’t they got anything better to do?”

This is the beginning of democracy. Removing restrictions on free speech is not the beginning of democracy. Speaker’s corner is not the beginning of democracy. The beginning of democracy is people taking the lead on issues, arguing about it in the public domain, signing petitions. Democracy is not an institution, it is a process, and it is all about people participating in the process.

The issue is not whether or not tomorrow’s meeting will decide an issue of great importance. The issue is that tomorrow is the first time in a long while you will see democracy in action IN SINGAPORE!

That’s the significance of this issue.

We, the parents of Singapore, have been diverted into perverted argument. The issue is about ALL our children, not just the Christian children.

This kena kon is very sad. After all the discussion over here and elsewhere, cant even appreciate that it is the principle that matters. Thank you Breeder for putting it in a nutshell. The problem is that Singaporeans are not used to this kind of thing and therefore some people are used to being apathetic becos they think this doesnt affect them. And so they have to grow a back bone or a brain. In places like Hong Kong, people demonstrate peacefully to make a stand on everything, from maid abuse, rape of Gaza to atrocities against the Falungong followers. People stand up for what is right. We shd grow up and start developing a conscience.

Who is Bert BJARland and pray may I ask
what is his achievements???

We should support the new exco for helping us exposed this truth if not we wouldn’t know or can’t prevent our kids from being taught with this type of material.
I’m sad to say that some people just want to put what they think is “neutral” and brainwash innocent kids.
Shame shame

Who has the lists of schools that embraced CSE programme?

Constance Singam fell asleep while on duty at the bridge. The ship got hijacked by gay rights activists. Some paratroopers were helicoptered in. She and the hijackers screamed bloody murder. Hijackers brings in more heavy artillery support.

Do not equate anal sex with gay sex. Anal sex can be practised with heterosexuals, e.g. during pregnancy and couple is uncomfortable with vaginal coitus.

I am interested to know if those who have no concerns about AWARE’s CSE, such as small vice, jaded, mice is nice and wendy are parents or not. I suspect they are not parents. If they have teenage or younger children, they are more likely to understand how difficult it is for parents to guide their children so they will not go astray. Parents do not need help from AWARE to lead their children astray, i.e. practise pre-marital sex, anal sex, adopt homosexuality.

Ever since the sex ed programme slant was highlighted, I have been boiling. I wrote to the ST reporters who wrote so much about the Aware news articles to query but none replied because my queries probably did not help the cause of the Aware old guard who were defending their moral guidance in the programme. I wrote to MOE twice, and read in the papers that they did not get any complaints from parents (what did my emails count as? feedback?). How can such views on anal sex and premarital sex be expressed to our children? It is sickening. Such statements merely give reason for confused kids to feel that they are right to indulge further in such activities.

so old guards win with 1400 votes by playing the ‘Religion Card’.shame on old guards .so now Aware is officially a Anti christians group ! so next time the old guards power is threaten, who will they target? buddhists or muslims

adults should not let irrational fear take over their critical thinking minds. further more of huge unsubstantiated claims like CSE promotes gay & lesbian sex.

irresponsible parents who jump in to complain about it on cue do could very well be the same 1s complaining if teachers are trying to rein in on a student’s wayward behaviour. the anything-go-wrong-just-point-finger-first attitude.

a concerned (if not loving) parent will take pre-emptive steps to engage more in his/her/their child/ren’s life, in & outside of school. not react only when a “situation” developes.

so old guards win! so now Aware is officially an anti christians group

i wan to noe the schs too.. they sud actually reli disclose the schs den dat wud reli tell if the parents r concern or not

I agree with Token. Where is that list of schools that teaches the CSE?

You guys can carry on your sick nonsense but stop polluting the minds of kids by trying to infiltrate an organisation under a legal guise and telling us that it is right to allow a situation like this to develop, to teach our kids such crap to give them more choices and then expect us to reverse the adverse effects.

This is the stand and pre-emptive steps i take and i will not allow my kids to be taught such crap in schools. Anyone who has ever been a kid in school knows that they don’t tell their parents everything because its not cool. At the adolescent stage, they are highly influenced by their peers. They look to their peers and their teachers too so if they are going to teach such crap in school, at least let me know which are the schools so i don’t put my kids in there.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/21606.php

Although teenagers who take “virginity pledges” begin engaging in vaginal intercourse later than teens who have not committed to remain abstinent until marriage, they also are more likely to engage in oral or anal sex than nonpledging virgin teens and less likely to use condoms once they become sexually active, according to a study published in the April issue of the…

hooray for abstinence only programs.

I thank Aware for the CSE material.

I always thought anal sex is wrong and unhealthy; pain in sex is not pleasurable. But the Aware CSE material proved me wrong.

With this new enlightenment from the CSE material, endorsed by MOE, I can talk to my partner about this new “healthy, sometimes painful and pleasurable” activity. You certainly taught an old dog like me some new tricks!

Thank you Aware old guards!

PS: Aware old guards, if you have an updated version of CSE with more interesting, liberal and “neutral” ideas, please feel free to spread this knowledge. You certainly open up the conservative mainstream population!

re post #55) loupgarou on May 3rd, 2009 12.50 am

abstinence only programs are just to lull parents who think their little 1s are innocent little gems even after their 21st birthday!!

=P

I am a concerned parent. I have 2 kids. I want to know the list of schools who ”
(a) adopted the CSE program,
(b) have not adopted, but program is already scheduled to run in schools
which I do not support. Together with relevant updates, I want to make an informed decision that my kids stay clear of these schools.
Incidentally, I also want to know if there are a list schools who have been introduced to this CSE program, and yet rejected them and why.
It’s that simple!

#60 kf (aka concerned parents)

very well, very simple, please write in to MOE, it is your right as a concerned parent.or if you cannot wait. come monday morning 6am go wait outside MOE.

show us your action, just like the action we showed today at the EGM. we posted on the various sites of our contempt for the new exco and support to re-instate the old guards. We did it!

so, now it’s your turn, since you are so disturbed by the CSE content, i strongly urge you to go ahead with your case. just do it, impossible is nothing, may your FM be with you.

re #60
Core programmes are delivered by teachers but schools do collaborate with other agencies in delivering additional modules. However, in doing so, schools must ensure that any programmes run by external agencies are secular and sensitive to the multi-religious make-up of our society. Parents can choose to opt their children out of these programmes.

–
In otherwords, before the program is run in your school, you WOULD be informed and granted the option to opt out. so go ahead, tell your kids that gays are evil and people like thio sm and josie lau are angels from heaven (and lies and unethical behaviour are perfect ways to convince people the “righteousness” of your cause)

–

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/pressparliament/pressreleases2009/statement.aspx
The Royal College shares the concern of both the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association that positions espoused by bodies like the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) in the United States are not supported by science. There is no sound scientific evidence that sexual orientation can be changed. Furthermore so-called treatments of homosexuality as recommended by NARTH create a setting in which prejudice and discrimination can flourish.

in otherwords, if your kid isn’t already inclined to be gay (he/she will probably know by the time puberty hits), then no amount of gay porno or talk is going to turn them gay. i mean, WOULD you turn gay if exposed to gay lit/porn/talking or 1.5 minutes of CSE on the subject?

JL, I said I am a concerned parent. I did not say it requires immediate/ near-immediate response from the authorities, but I want to raise the point for discussion. I hope you are not jumping into the conclusion that I am trying to push for a reply by Monday. It’s just as reasonable for me to see how MOE responds on this along the way.

lougarou, to clarify, I don’t even agree labelling homosexuals as evil, and non-homosexuals as angels in the first place. Point noted that such CSE programs are only optional, not compulsory even when schools implement them.

Having four children in schools, my experience is that it is NOT EASY to opt out of some school programmes, especially when the school think it is important. This is the 21st Century, but some of you may be shocked how unreasonable some schools are.

A few years ago, (this is NOT the AWARE CSE) I tried opting out one school programme (managed by an external party) by NOT signing the consent form and my daughter was in duress (crying and pleading me to agree later) as she was verbally persuaded in a very high pressure manner. I intervened and was basically told that the school spent a lot of effort and invested a lot of resources in organising activities and they expect all of their selected students to participate.

I then return the form with my signature qualifying that the form is “signed under duress as it is compulsory” and guess what, I was reminded by the school that NO, it is NOT compulsory (but she had to participate).

This sounded like a big joke, but it is true.

@SHANWAY

did you threaten to complain MOE/write newspapers, that seems to work most of the time..

Dear loupagrou.

The research on homosexual behaviours are far from being conclusive yet and at the moment, the conventional wisdom is that both :”nature’” and “nurture” situations could be a factor.

Some Homosexuals are born, while there are others who “discovered – nature” or “turned – nurture when they have homosexual friends. It could also be peer pressure or the discovery that it could be more “fun” than being a straight.

Dear Loupgarou,

Yes, it might work, but I for one won’t fight the school publicly. It will be my daughter ho suffer in her coming years, not the school.

Jaw

That statement Shanyao made @#67 shows that she’s not a parent! She doesn’t know who hard we real parents have to bring up a child with love, guide her through all those negative peer influence, hesitate if we are doing too much or too little!

Do any of you ‘parents’ out there even talk to your kids about sex education? Or do you leave it to the school and others and turn around and complain that they are teaching your kids things you don’t want them to know about. Come on la, kids nowadays have access to internet and downloaded videos, and I bet most of your kids, if you really have any, are much more exposed to internet ’sex education’ than you think.

and really, you as ‘parents’ did not even bother to clarify with Aware or the school what the programme is about, and choose to take sides by just looking at DE-contextualised training materials, when elsewhere in the manual there are clearly sections on abstinence and STDs. And kids are not idiots, stop treating them like they are innocent silly angels.

sex between consensual adults is their own business. what is this unbecoming behaviour to govern what Mature, Consenting Adults do in their bedrooms? no wonder, ms Sally still thinks she has to shout Shut Up and Sit Down.

and ‘parents’ stop giving this lame excuse that you can’t opt your children out of school programmes. in the first place go find out for yourself first hand what the programmes are and if you really disagree, then remove your children from the programme if you really believe you are right, instead of hiding behind lame excuses.

and use your real name for goodness sake, if u really feel so strongly about ur moral convictions.

First of all, I am a ‘he’ not a she. And i can assure you that my 4 daghters are very real :)

Unless of course some extremist feminists, who consider the mother as the only parent.

i wonder if some here are people pretending to be parents…

#67 shanyao

practically everyone from america, china, hongkong, europe that are professionals disagree.

only fake pseudo quack websites and organisations dispute otherwise.

—
if its nurture, kindly explain that to all the gay animals out there, maybe MOE is also showing the animal kingdom the CSE program.. (how about you go search amazon.com for some peer reviewed literature on the FACTS of animal sexuality as well)

http://www.slate.com/id/2159262/

gay sheep and the quest to turn them straight.

Shanyao – Since when do feminists only ‘consider the mother as the only parent’? Please read up on feminism before you make such erroneous statements.

well, at least one does not consider me as a real parent.

A am a man and I am not a homosexual. So i don’t know :) some seem to think you have to be either to be real @)

On a more serios note, I said extremist, not the mainstream femnists.

By labelling pre-marital sex, homosexuality as neutral, is the CSE program sending out subtle messages to the teenagers that these may be okay afterall? Do bear in mind that they are not ready to make a right decision at that age.

Well, Shanyao, if feminism doesn’t see the mothers as the only parents, then it’s is quite impossible to reach the conclusion that this is so even if you are extremist. Good for you that you are a real parent and saying what you think, but I hope there are no fake parents out there who followed some sermons that ask followers to post letters like ‘I am a mother of three…’

As for matters of sexuality, do you think your kids will listen to a 3 hour course, conducted by a trainer with whom they had no relationship with, or to their parents? i presume you talk with your children on this? There are so many alternative views out there, do you propose to shut your children off alternative views or do you encourage them to discuss with you?

According to the explanation of the Aware trainer, less than a couple of minutes was spent talking about homosexuality etc, while 30 minutes were spent on talking about abstinence. Why don’t you focus on the abstinence part?

And I really don’t understand what this sexual education issue has to do with the Aware takeover. How does it justify the takeover and the conduct of the old-new team?

i think some here is just trying to say “if every one agrees with me, dun need to waste time”. no alternative views mah, what is there to discuss?

my religion tells me vaginal sex is sinful and evil.. it may increase world population and more resources will be consumed and global warming will become worse and it will bring abt the end of days….

i am against telling ppl that they should have sex at all. people who are truly pure and innocent in love should sit together and sing songs every sunday. we should make women wear chastity belts!

Regardless of race, language or religion, we should stand what we think will affect our next generation, to try to “program” our young to think that what is a social abnormali to be a social norm. As the gays and lesbians fight for more rights, there will be social back lash as this is against social norm. Christians for this case is just a convenient “scape goat”.

http://theonlinecitizen.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/aware-cse.pdf

Now MOE, has to wake up as these things are happening under their nose. So has the government, who has retain the law section 377A…

Am I anti gay people? Oh..pls..I am not.

Quote below:

They [homosexuals] live their lives, that’s their personal space. But the tone of the overall society, I think, it remains conventional, it remains straight and we want it to remain so,” said Prime Minister Lee Hsien Loong.

Dear Chuihua,

Although I have stated my opiion on the AWARE case, I am less interested in what is happening in AWARE than the CSE, which I find it disturbing.

Although I personally support gender equality, and equal application of law on both genders. I also support free enterprise and free competition which doesnt contradict what mainstream feminist stands for.

However, while I support the existence of any women group, deep inside, I don’t really care about what is happenin in AWARE.

Jaw

The Aware debacle was a lightning rod to draw in and spark off many pluralistic issues and secular discussions for years to come, many of which have been kept on the kerb side.

From that debacle, it is understood and protrayed that an inclusive society, to be fair and consistent, should be one that allows for the following individual choice-makers to join the society-at-large, as long as it does not impact on our surrounding neighbours:

i) individuals who wish to chose the same gender as partners
ii) parents who desire to select the sex of their babies so as to continue their family lineage
iii) terminally-ill patients who wants to end their life early as morphine could no longer ease their pain
iv) smokers who want to enjoy pot and glue so long as it does not endanger others
v) would-be organ donors who would prefer to sell their own organs so as to amass a small fortune for their loved ones
vi) man or woman who hopes for multiple partners or polygamy to break free of boredom
vii) teenagers who wish to experiment and have the right to abort their young babies

Tolerance has to be extended to all of the above choices, or it would be favouring the pink but discriminatory towards the yellow. After all, a society is composed of shades of colour. Branding homosexuality not as a deviant behaviour while condemning the other choices as deviant is injust. A code that applies to one set of choices has to be equally applicable to the rest. Decriminalising one choice and criminalising another is cruel. Permitting one group to move into mainstream and putting down another risks secular warfare. This concerns freedom. All of the above are now non-mainstream and are about individual choices. Allowing one group to go mainstream while suppressing the rest risks polarising the entire society.

Therefore, a positive outcome of the debacle is the encouragement of the above groups to rise and form a PRO-CHOICE COALITION and to register a secular political party to fight for mainstreaming of their individual rights and choices. An election or referendum can be held to ascertain if a political victory can be achieved and this victory in itself is a measure of the extent of their mainstreaming success. Aware taught us all to be tolerant, neutral, trustful and respectful of these choice-makers.

re post #83) prochoice on May 5th, 2009 3.42 pm

yes, i think those pro-choice people could form their own groups to lobby for their causes, but please keep in mind some on your list do not have anything to do with Aware…

as for
i) as far as our society (social norms) goes, the answer now is no
vi) not in the name of gender equality (we’re talking about Aware right?)
vii) new & old forms of media (think sexy MTVs, saucy ads, teen idol drama, just to name some) has been doing that for a long time, way before Aware’s CSE program was introduced… eh, having an option to abort is pro-choice wad. lol…

some of the fears about secular warfare is not a bad thing, it depends on how they champion their causes. dun confuse pro-choice lobby group with political party… Aware is not a political party leh…

Does anyone care that certain teachings that would obviously run counter to a few religions are being taught without informing the parents?

Rather insidious and irreponsible isn’t it? Now why didn’t AWARE publish the manual to all and sundry when there are certain points within that are glaringly disagreeable to quite a few religions in Singapore?

re John Lee,

are you refering to the Instructor Handbook? if so that wan is for instructors only…

i do believe the curriculum should not have any religious leanings, there are free thinking individuals among the religious too. but for over a year why no parents gave any feedback?

mice is nice,

If the teachings are above board, why not publish it?

Are all parents who are free-thinkers ok with their children being taught homosexuality, anal sex and pre-marital sex is ‘neutral’ and ‘normal’? Secularism does not equal acceptance of homosexuality, even in the west, especially in asia.

Well, there are complaints now, lots of it. The parents being ‘negligent’ does not negate the fact that people have been teaching values to their children that are repugnant to the parents. And as i stated in the first post, these values obviously run counter to a few major religions in Singapore.

I do not like the old AWARE’s programme on sexuality. It is destroying the institution of family! The programme uses 99 parts truth to promote 1 part untruth. It is not only Christianity but every other religion which would not teach such things are as taught by the old AWARE to our young and even adults.

Josie and her stormtroopers were right to be angry and put a stop to this nonsensical teaching, but the way they did it was too rash. Hence, they failed. If only they had acted rationally and calmly, they would have done right. As a result, they got voted out by women who did not like their style (but with hindsight, I think they would agree that the old AWARE was teaching what they as mothers would also not want their daughters to be taught).

John Lee,

not sure if that will infringe on copyright laws anot. its not free software, furthermore its an Instructor Guide…

why are you imposing your religious values in a secular space of the classroom? its not how many parents are free thinkers, surely you do not imply that this is a case of majority (who share similiar values) wins, minirity lose?

////Well, there are complaints now, lots of it.////

so? were they all “too busy” to care till now? ‘negligent’ parents who were made ‘aware’ after CSE was implimented over a year simply means what you donot know can’t hurt you. makes 1 wonder how distant is the parent-child relationship…

btw, CSE stand for Comprehensive Sex Education, not Religious Sex Education. sex as a topic from the health related point of view rarely sits well with any religion. if i am wrong on this i’ll like to know of 1 that confronts this topic head-on, please share with everyone.

Mice is nice, if the teaching material is so beneficial, AWARE should publish it openly, and receive the grateful accolades of hte parents, which include people of all religions, including atheists and agnostics.

You are right, the parents trusted too much. They are rising up now.

Don’t dodge the issue, answer the question, is AWARE cognizant that the values being taught in its CSE are repugnant to the parents, of all religions and beliefs?

If AWARE knows that the parents would not want such values being taught, and yet AWARE went ahead with it anyway, what does it make AWARE’s intention and mode of spreading its ideas of values? Answer this question.

I agree that the primary responsibilities of bringing up children lies with the parents and that children should be exposed to a multitudes of ideas. It is however tough enough for parents to impart the values they treasure today.

Yes, we can (I did) sit down with our children to discuss drugs and sex movies and TV serials (in my case, I use “weeds”, :”Requiem for a dream” and “Friends” as an example). And children at a young age today understands that there are different values and view points being propagated and that they should be careful to understand and to choose the life they want to live.

What happened at school when a child is 12 years old is however not so stright forward. A school is where knowledge and values are being passed on by “authority” within the school compound- be it a teacher, a professional, a police officer, a religious pastor (or an Ulama) or a trained CSE speaker.

While children will not lose the mind to discern totally, ideas being imparted in school sanctioned activities are more likely to be readily accepted.

Where practiced, AWARE CSE is not an “Opt in” programme and like in my experience, parents are also likely to be more trusting as the assumption is that they have been “vetted” by the school and the MOE. If the MOE didn’t know that the CSE instructors were supposed to “correct” student who think “anal sex is wrong and unnatural” what chance will a parent know?

By keeping the instructor guidelines away from parents and MOE, AWARE could (I am not suggesting they did) potentially subvert a lot of moral values without anyone being wiser.

The world has changed and so are moral standards. You can teach all the children you want but let me quote an extreme and unrealistic (but relevant) example. If they start teaching 12 years and older children that If you die killing infidels, you will immediately go to heaven and win the hands of 64 virgins. Should it still be allowed because the responsibility of teaching children not to murder lies primarily with parents? (I am not equating the seriousness, just discussing the logic).

Shanyao

John Lee,

if CSE Instructor Guide can be published openly, might as well get MOE to publish all teaching materials openly. just because there are objectional values (itself very subjective) being taught, does it warrant a program to be out in the open? for all we know some may just infringe intellectual copyright laws for their own gains.

////You are right, the parents trusted too much. They are rising up now. ////

this i agree, even after high profiled NKF saga, Ren Ci fiasco & now Aware saga (just to name a few), S’poreans by & large still are rather complacent. its a social issue, not just about parents.

how can Aware know all parents’ values which its is that diverse? MOE (more specifically schools that engaged Aware’s program) already replied it comply to our social norms. keke, i know even social norms are not caste in stone, norms evolve with time, eg, now got Desperate Housewives on Ch 5.

form another thread i quote, ////The schools that engaged AWARE found that the content and messages of the sessions conducted were appropriate for their students and adhered to guidelines to respect the values of different religious groups.////

////Don’t dodge the issue, answer the question, is AWARE cognizant that the values being taught in its CSE are repugnant to the parents, of all religions and beliefs?////

i am not Aware’s Exco or member, how to answer on their behalf? sorry if i gave that impression. i just think parents are not being fair if they “suddenly” voice their unhappiness over the CSE after it being run over a year. but i do think the anger is misplaced. why not questions the school’s decision?

if parents let their emotions get into their heads, how would their child even approach such a sensitive topic? parents who petitioned to MOE, the numbers speak for themselves.

‘how can Aware know all parents’ values which its is that diverse?’

Well, since AWARE cannot know all the values of parents, all the more it should ask the parents beforehand. As for some of the values, it takes no more than a thought to fathom that many parents find values like pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex deplorable.

Is MOE at fault for allowing AWARE to slip in? They are tightening their vetting process now. And AWARE has lost credibility with many people now.

Obviously you cannot speak for AWARE for a hypothetical question aimed to make people like you think a bit more. Don’t dodge the answer, my friend.

Emotions can be used correctly, especially when the emotions involve the love of parents for their children, something this whole sorry affair has sparked off.

Oh, don’t fudge MOE’s teaching materials with AWARE’s. I am sure nothing in MOE’s teaching materials claim that pre-marital sex, anal sex and homosexuality is ok if practised with consent.

I agree, John.

Sorry John, I meant I agree only to the fact that MOE’s material is very different from AWARE’s.

Jaw

John Lee,

i am not fudging MOE’s teaching materials with Aware’s. but there are many implications of full disclosure of such materials. besides, where does this right rests on, which authority?

if Aware or other 3rd party program vendor were to ask all (if that’s what you mean) parents just for approval, there will not be any CSE. since it cannot appeal to all parents. by employing 3rd party vendors for such a touchy issue MOE has effectively sidestepped any blame if there is an issue with the program.

////Is MOE at fault for allowing AWARE to slip in? They are tightening their vetting process now. And AWARE has lost credibility with many people now.////

what would your answer to that question above be? did it or not?

if emotion is a tool, it has many parents upset to the point some cannot reason with a level head. there are enough of such “concerned” parents who sing the same tune as the accuser, Dr Thio & co. the upset is such a driving force, that at the click of a “switch” parents petitioned to MOE on the CSE. how can you still say emotions can be used correctly?

why not ask MOE why it decided to come up with this program less than 4 years back? why not ask MOE the aims, to go back to find out the reason for such programs to be introduced?

knowledge free from values can be a useful tool (to make informed dicisions) to deter rash behaviour & to serve as a counterweight to the combined forces peer pressure, MSM, & new media on social ills about sexuality.

////is AWARE cognizant that the values being taught in its CSE are repugnant to the parents, of all religions and beliefs?////

my personal opinion: 1 can learn all the worldly values, but does not put them into practice. what use of it? can any parents guarantee their child/ren practice them without giving in to temptation? with regards to matters of sexuality that comes with health related implications, can teaching values alone deter rash behaviour? btw, just because parents find pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex deplorable, does not mean it does not exist (just like NSmen dropping dead like flies, does not mean they really are weaklings). the world have evolved, so have dangers. is ignorance, bliss?

if this anti-Aware stance continues, i find it very difficult to continue a meaningful dialogue.

Mice is nice, i repeat again.

There are values within the teaching material that AWARE knows would be repugnant to the parents of the 13 year old kids that AWARE has conducted the workshops to.

The learned women of AWARE MUST know that pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex are deplorable to these parents.

They did not tell the parents beforehand that they would be teaching these so-called values to the children.

I have drawn my conclusion from this. So have thousands of enraged parents.

Oh, you are trying to fudge the issue again. ‘Ignorance is bliss’? If AWARE has taught the children that pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex is wrong, AWARE would have nothing but appreciation from the parents. It tells the children that the above can be ok. It can be normal.

AWARE is NOT giving information and facts. It is teaching values, repugnant values.

I am a father of two. I will not allow an organization to tell my sons that these values are ‘normal’. Thousands of parents have also made their feelings known loud and clear and MOE has responded.

I am raising the point that many has not raised, AWARE knows that these so-called values would anger parents. It DID NOT tell the parents beforehand. Why?

John Lee,

does Aware have the e-mail, landline or mobile numbers of all the parents? can the schools just give such personal information out?

go ahead with your Aware bashing. you are an example why parents may not be ideal person/s to teach such sensitive topic. you are enraged (your own words)….

this is my last reply to you, Mr John Lee.

Mice is nice, you wrote
‘does Aware have the e-mail, landline or mobile numbers of all the parents? can the schools just give such personal information out?’

There are values within the teaching material that AWARE knows would be repugnant to the parents of the 13 year old kids that AWARE has conducted the workshops to.

The learned women of AWARE MUST know that pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex are deplorable to these parents.

They did not tell the parents beforehand that they would be teaching these so-called values to the children.

It is very easy, for anybody to pass out what they intend to teach.

I am very well qualified to teach values to my children, thank you. I am enraged that AWARE presumes that it can teach better than me, especially when it is teaching values deplorable to me.

hey john lee, then pull your kids out of school, or choose to opt out of the CSE, YOU CAN.

your values are DEPLORABLE TO ME as well. as can be seen by the earlier letter i posted in topic 88, not all parents think like you. they prefer their kids know about the real world. gays are born, not made. unless you yourself think you can have your sexuality somehow converted through a CSE lesson. give your kids some credit, they are probably smarter than you.

loupgarou,

Why did AWARE not let the parents know beforehand that they are telling their kids that pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex can be, as they put it, ‘neutral’?

Thanks for the advice, my sons and my friends’ chidren will not attend any talks given by AWARE.

its your subjective morality that says its “bad”, an atheist would treat those as amoral. ie: factually neutral.

anal sex between two consensual loving hetrosexual couples is just part and parcel of normal sex. you can go search amazon for it.

likewise, gays are entitled to their own private life (accordingly to wks), so what they do behind closed doors are their own business.

pre marital sex, given that adults in singapore are trending towards marriage at 30 and above, are you being ridiculous? are you saying someone at age 21 who can die for his country cannot and should not have sex?

homosexuality exists. everywhere. if you’re not homosexual in the first place, you’re not even going to be turned on by hard core gay porn. so why would you be concerned? that you rather not find out your son is gay and let him lie to you till your death bed? that he cheats an innocent girl into a false loveless marriage to sire you a grandchild?

you can read this link on topic 125 where I posted a whole bunch of mainstream scientific journals listing just the tip of the iceberg on the possible genetic origins of homosexuality.
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/the-suspension-of-reason/

remember, if you think your child can be influenced into becoming a homosexual, that means YOU THINK YOU YOURSELF CAN BE INFLUENCED.

dear loupgarou, you can teach you child that he or she can engage in pre-marital sex, that is your prerogative.

Likewise, it is MY pregorative to teach my sons to treasure sexual activity as a celebration of love between a man and woman.

It is NOT AWARE’s right to teach young girls it is ok to engage in pre-marital sex, anal sex and homosexuality WITHOUT telling the parents.

If you think that it is so important to tell your children that it is ok to engage in pre-marital sex and to love people of the same sex, won’t you feel angry if I tell your children that is better to treasure sex as to be practised only between a married man and woman, without telling you?

why is it not right”? like i said, the terms are neutral, its only you that see it as negative.

morality IS relative.

is your wife following 6 steps behind you and wearing a burqa? in some ASIAN countries, that would make her IMMORAL . do you drink alchohol? that is immoral in other ASIAN countries.

I have a hypothesis…

Just wondering, if your children can be so easily influenced to become gay by a less than 1 min talk on “homosexuality being neutral” then i think your children are not very bright afterall, apart from the fact that they cannot tell apart the meaning of “neutral” , “positive” and “negative” most certainly.

Wah..their physics results will be a nightmare if they cannot tell the positive electrode from negative electrode and grounding (or the earth point, which incidentally, means neutral).

Therefore my hypothesis is … Instead of lobbying to throw the CSE course out of the window, spending more time tutoring your kids to score well in O/A/University exams will be more constructive than worrying about them becoming gay yeah?

You will have more bragging rights among your friends at least if your kids perform well in exams.

As for pre-marital sex and abortion issues, none of my friends who are parents actually proactively teach their kids that pre-marital sex is “neutral” and in fact they very clearly explained and nagged everyday that pre-marital sex is not acceptable.

Taking that in consideration, it may shocked U that many parents friends of mine during our gathering, complained that their kids have so many bfs/gfs and some even suspect their kids had abortions! Which also left my parenting friends scratching their heads….how come their kids know which clinic offering such services when they themselves don’t know and excluded it from their parenting all this while?

Don’t you think that controversial information (which are factual and relevant to our society currently) imparted by teachers to the kids are better than the kids digging unregulated information online or from their friends?

p/s: i’m not a parent yet. :)

There are values within the teaching material that AWARE knows would be repugnant to the parents of the 13 year old kids that AWARE has conducted the workshops to.

The learned women of AWARE MUST know that pre-marital sex, homosexuality and anal sex are deplorable to these parents.

They did not tell the parents beforehand that they would be teaching these so-called values to the children.

I have drawn my conclusion from this. So have thousands of enraged parents.

hi Nobody,

can i volunteer as a “lab rat” for that influence test? :P

if homosexuals are taught is there a program to uninstall (the program)? i am keen to experience a life not attracted to both genders.

Well, today’s sunday times stated in an article that AWARE never gave their material for their so-called ‘comprehensive sex education’ to the ministry of education for vetting. Something to hide? Anyway they are kicked out now, and good riddance.