Cat,

The issue is not just the CSE per se. It is about the stealthy and deceitful method AWARE used, keeping parents in the dark about its content.

Please see the issue from the parents’ perspective for once. Stop pandering to the gays.

Dear Dr. Lim, I only wish there are more clear-sighted people like you. Our parents really still live at an age of ‘Shut up and Sit down’. Luckily I have internet and will maximise the use of it.

Catherine was clearly ‘touched’(emotionally by one of her homosexual friend in the conclusion of her article.

patriot

Wow. Such a well written letter appealing to common sense and sensibility.

i knew that Josie & fiends are using that issue to distract the masses. but my english not so powerful as Catherine Lim. heh….

but i also know in S’pore, most people prefer to play the blame game. in the end the buck stops where the person first pointed the finger at others.

when the truth hits, people will still refuse to admit they fall short of expectations.

keke, i know its not easy being a parent…. -.-

Sheer brilliance of Dr Lim to confidently conclude that the CSE program (which she have not seen) is probably useful because (1) teacher and principles adopted it (and by virtue of their profession have good judgment), (2) there was never any complaint over the years (even though (a) it was taught mainly to 12-16 year old girls who would usually blog this all over their (oh so silly) blogs and (b) MOE just suspended it), and (3) the same people who came up with and stood behind the material will be reviewing it in due course.

(5) Anon – click on the link ‘Read full letter here’. There is a link.. the red part there, put on your glasses if you can’t see it.

Assuming that are really some hidden message inside the CSE, one shouldn’t resort to using lies, hijacking, rude and ungracious behaviours, “in the name of god” etc.

Actually I am more worry about the youngsters under that particular church, they seems to present a very bad model for the children. They will probably think that ” hey, even our pastor do that to achieve his objective, what’s wrong if we do xxx ? “. Something for all to ponder on,

Quote ” Homosexuality is Not An Abnormality “…very subjective subject to digest.

Well written but not convincing. Flawed in many areas as mentioned by Anon. She is looking at it from mount Everest and she has some visibility problem. Worse, being liberal she takes the liberty to sweep up anyhting for the sake of literary prowess. The real issue is still missed by her.

Sorry Cat, you jumped the gun before reading the CSE manual.

I cannot agree the social stigma will dissapear eventually, not with the stealth
in using the CSE program to promote gay agenda. On the other hand, a lot of good will from majority of main stream folks would have been lost. Overbearing and aggressive gay activists will further undermine this good will from the majority.
Incidently Cat, you should be more concern for AWARE, it needs help to repair their public image. It is suppose to be an organization to help all women.

To 1) Solo bear

If you don’t trust AWARE CSE, your kid has the choice to rely on internet for informations. We are living in a modern age with moving fast technology. Children are taught how to surf the nets and use their computer in primary school. What is there to hide, unless you throw away all the PCs in Singapore to ensure all kids are saved. If you blame AWARE for being stealthy and deceitful for the CSE , than I am sure BILL GATE is the greatest culprit for inventing computer and the schools are to blame for purchasing them and even teaching children how to surf? Get real!

You send your child to school and yet doesn’t trust the school to deliver good education? You blame AWARE for stealthy methods when you didn’t even bother to write to AWARE to ask about the CSE, or sit in one of their sessions? Please homeschool your kids and stop bellyaching.

Dear #1, Solo Bear,
Thank you for all your posts which I am following .
MOE comments on the sex education has both positive and negative aspects whose contents can still be debated. However the authorities have already took action, and perhaps the matter can rest to the comfort of concern parents.

Moving ahead – old and new and new new guards have to take responsibilities for all that they have stirred up and so far none have gone four of the law of the land.

My only disgust in this episode is that whilst all parties are seen to be passionate and true to themselves in the so call fight, the head of the Anglican Church, Dr John Chew did not do what is expected of him – he is a cowardly in standing up for Christians, whether he is pressured by the Government to say what he had said as per the recordings as many had conjecturised is still no excuse for him not standing up to the true teachings of the Bible.

I dont know whether she is attempting to be nice and objective but clearly I see bias..just like you see bias in my comments. If we are not adopting an altenative lifestyle then promoting homo is out. And to say that it is not an abnormality is also out for the majority. Do we recognise it as a social problem? In the longer run does it lead to other ills? If so do we need to do more research and help this group..or do we simply let it grow? Is the growth of homosexuals a cause of concern in Singapore? ..and so on..

If all the so-called concerned parents are really and truly so concerned, then:

1. Why did not they pay more attention to their children’s activities in school – not just on what is being taught by the teachers but also how they behave and how they mix around.

2. Why did not they keep their children at home to teach them themselves?

3. Alternatively, they could have put them in boarding schools or employ nannies to teach their children like those olden days – remember “The Sound of Music”?

4. Why they suddenly become “so concerned” when the Aware’s CSE Programme has been going on since 2006? Have they been sleeping on their “concern” in the past three years?

5. Why they did not take it up with either their children’s school principals or form teachers in the last three years?

6. Why they did not take it up with Aware in the last three years?

7. Why they did not complain to the Ministry of Education in the last three years?

8. Have they been “sitting down and shutting up” for the past three years?

In response to Catherine’s letter, and a response directed to her.

I disagree with your statement:
1. “Homosexuality is NOT an abnormality” because you said that …”there is probably a genetic component for sexual orientation.” Since you used the word “probably”, it is a unproven theory, therefore it is not wise for you to come to that conclusion that it is NOT.

2. You statement concerning that “We have witnessed moral stigmas of divorce, cohabitation, the loss of virginity, and going back even further, marriage outside one’s race,… have all become a thing of the past,… they are neither good nor bad”.

I believe that there is still absolute morality in spite of how man justified himself in certain acts. Divorce, cohabitation ….is bad, social evolution theory has not made society a better place, we have to think deeper into the consequences of the fairytale thinking that when things are neither good or bad anymore, it shows that we have improved in our humanity.

3. I disagree with you concerning homosexuality that “our children, as they grow up, have minds and wills of their own, especially in the matter of sexual orientation which defines their very identity. Whatever our reservations, we should respect this independence; indeed, we have no choice.”

The discrimination against homosexual in terms of their right as a human being is wrong,we should respect every human beings in every manner we need to respect a criminal or a poor. But that does not justify that certain acts are acceptable and that we have no choice.

I believe that we should create a society that accepts and respects homosexuals in their rights as human beings, but also creating a environment in which homosexuals could redeemed their God given sexuality in accordance to their God given gender body. Homosexuals needs to be understood, loved, and guided so that a normal sexual orientation could be achieved rather than to be condemned. As Jesus said, which one of you is without sin?

4. “The worst possible parental reaction is obviously the ‘I-forbid-you-because-it’s-against-God’s-will”. Even though Christians or bible believing community believes that it is against God’s will for homosexuality, I agree with you that we should not have the “I forbid you” attitude.

But on the other hand if the bible clearly states that God is against homosexuality, it is un-respectful of you to say that “Homosexuality is NOT…an evil, an abomination in the eyes of God”.

Rather I believed, as said, the issue lies with: when something is wrong, how do we communicate and work in a manner that creates love and repentance. Being a homosexual in Singapore lives in pain and rejection, and that should not be the way. But giving in to certain questionable moral acts is something that needs to be dealt with, in love, gentleness and honestly.

Dear Solo bear,

It is interesting that you ’saw through’ AWARE’s stealthy and deceitful method, but not able to see the same in how Josie Lau and Thio Su Mien and the rest kept its members and public in the dark about its method to infiltrate a civil group through underhanded method.

Eveline, it is the stealthy introduction of the CSE program to schools that concerned parents.

Dear Gemami,

Is “STEALTHY method/introduction” the issue here?

Let’s not forget, as what David said above, our children are vulnerable to the influences of the internet and media which work equally in a “stealthy” way. What’s important is to recognise and accept such uncontrollable forces and find a way to manage it. I don’t think children attending CSE in schools for a few hours during a year can change a person’s sexual orientation. At least, CSE in schools does good to raise the awareness about such issues. And this is really insignificant compared to the amount of time children are exposed to undesirable influences when they surf the world wide web.

gemami on May 7th, 2009 8.47 am

What do you mean by “stealthy introduction” ?

Parents are aware that schools do conduct sexuality education. They should also be informed by schools concerned that they have invited external organisation such as Aware, Singapore Planned Parenthood Association and Family Life Society to conduct part of the programme. MOE has stated that parents are given opt-out forms so there is no question that parents are informed.

How is this “stealthy introduction” ?

What parents are concerned with is the content of the programme. And they should be if they is any valid claim of their children being taught something that is not in line with their family values. It is right for them to seek clarification from schools and MOE.

Now that MOE has revealed that Singapore Planned Parenthhod Association and Family Life Society also conducts such programmes for schools, I wonder if parents are interested in reviewing the programme materials for these organisations. It would be a good learning experience for everyone to compare the contents of the 3 organisations.

Woah, hold it right there. Didn’t Constance Singam get blasted by the gay folks last year? I quote from Yawning Bread’

“Just last year, Constance Singam, then President of AWARE, gave a talk about feminism to a full house of lesbian and bisexual women. It must have been one of the most difficult audiences she ever faced. The women machine-gunned her with questions expressing their grievances -– that in over twenty years of its existence, AWARE had paid virtually no attention to lesbian and bisexual women’s issues; that AWARE had never spoken up for them.”

And now we have AWARE engaging in stealthy methods to promote the gay agenda?

And what’s this “Being a homosexual in Singapore lives in pain and rejection, and that should not be the way.” Does Jer Lim in note #11 have any gay friends at all?

I know of some gay people. They dont seem to be living in pain or rejection at all! In fact, some of us straight people envy them for their zest for life. They seem to go for nice holidays, stay in swanky hotels, live in nice condos and dont have to worry about children tagging along or the cost of bringing them up and the content of the CSE. To them life is like one big party leh, and sometimes literally.

If only we could have a bit of that carefree approach to life.

How does one read into the sudden awakening of 7000 concerned parents in the aftermath of the CSE revelation? Oh, I know! It’s the damn parents fault for being complacent and ignorant over what goes on in the school.

Damn it! We the parents have been too trusting.

Hmm…why does this tune sounds so utterly familiar? Gee (scratching head and bum), where did I hear this tune from? …… (Still scratching).

And Zefly, you are out of point. I think you have been celebrating too hard and losing it a bit. Lose the alchohol my friend. We are talking about normal heterosexual parents who have been kept in the dark, not the lesbians or bisexuals you quoted.

Cat’s article, as in her other articles and speeches, good to read but may not be objective and true.

Sometimes, good english may give the impression of sound argument and logic when it is not.

No scientist have ever proven that there is such a thing as a homosexual gene in any person. Until that is scientific proven, i remain in the nurture camp.

Just because there is already moral laxity in other areas of our lives, doesn’t mean that we can continue to accept.

I have often wondered how do we convince others that homoseuality is no good without going into religious convictions. I am not a christian but could you imagind if everyone in the world is a gay, then wouldn’t that means that ultimately, we will all dissappear as a race since procreation would not be possible.

Another aspect. We have often seen gay couples wanted to have children. So what do they do? They adopt. Imagine the child who grows with gay parents, they too will think that having parents of the same sex is “normal”. So very likely they too may also become gay parents themselves. Then what happens ? More and more gays around. What does that mean ? More and more gay families now want to adopt children. Then what happens? Demand for adoption will be higher. then what happens ? Heterosexuals may then think it is ok to give up unwanted children for adoption since there is a demand out there? Then waht happens ? More unwanted children for adoption. See the social impact of accepting gays. Even without relying on religious beliefs and convictions of sin, this is a slippery slope giving rise to alot of social problems.

Good to society? Maybe not. That is why I think homosexuality should not be allowed.

Sorry Gemami,

“We are talking about normal heterosexual parents who have been kept in the dark, not the lesbians or bisexuals you quoted.”

Erm…. that is exactly the point. You guys keep accusing AWARE of promoting the gay agenda through the CSE and conveniently ignoring the fact that the gays weren’t happy with AWARE.

So.. your point again?

Gemami, be careful of the sacarsm. Sometimes, those you target may not get the sacarsm intended and think that you have been won over. Happen to me before….

Well, if the 7000 parents are concerned….then it is something

Joe, the idea of a discourse works both ways – to convince and to be convinced. Generally, people are convinced in a number of ways. It all depends on who you are, what you are and the values that embodies the person that you are.

Personally, I have been following the saga with an opened mind and I have shown that I am not afraid to take the sides that can convince me enough with their arguments.

To me, the episode leading up to the EGM is over, finished; and the majority have spoken and spoken loudly (pun intended).

We are now scrutinizing the issue that surfaced during the saga, namely the contents of the CSE program. I am of the viewpoint that, on the whole, the CSE program has more good than evil. The question therefore pertains to this ‘evil’.

I am seeking answers, like the 7000+ parents, on why there is this stealthy portion in part of the CSE program, that paint to uncorrupted minds that acts attributed to being a gay, a lesbian and a homosexual is normal behaviour.

I have posted a reply to Zefly in another thread. Here is an extract from it:

We are getting a clearer and clearer picture as the day go by and we are now hearing that MOE has rescinded its support for the CSE program run by AWARE.

The thing is, Dana has been quoted as saying she finds nothing wrong with the program “because we have been running it for the past two years” (TODAY 7/5/09).

She is turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to the actions of MOE, not questioning why MOE finds it necessary to pull out its support, and not listening to the currently 7000+ online voices crying out for a better understanding of the CSE program.

Let us not suffer the small stuff and play the name-calling and put-you-down game. Let us now assess what the new-old-AWARE is going to do after enduring this painful saga. Are they going to learn from it or are they going to pretend that takeover was just a nightmarish dream that had already come to pass?

See full text of post #244 here: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/aware-lessons-from-a-fiasco/

i can only say;” It’s about time you wake up, MOE honey!”

Methink MoS may have misspoke when he said things are alright because MOE no receive complaints from parents..

Huh? is that how garhment agencies work? Methink MOE also sleeping like old guard AWARE ?

Agreed, Gemami.

I have always found the defence that the material is only in the instructor’s manual ludicrous.

This is in fact more insidous than what they accused of the new guard. But most pro-old guard can seem to see this and keep harping on other issues like no respect, change locks, christian adovacy, hitler, jews…

Perhaps Cat , Siew K H and other well known personalities can speak up for the gay agenda at Hong Lim Park. Start with this venue and follow up with a permit to go on a campaign trail to reach out to all communties especially the majority living in HDB estates.

Let’s see whether they can convince the majority of mainstream folks to accept proposals like same sex marriage, repeal of S377A of penal code, reinstate CSE program promoting gay agenda.

The point is, the gay community should promote their gay agenda openly, that’s right, it reflects “passion” as demonstrated in the AWARE outcome , rather than just being eloquent behind the keyboards.

Isn’t this a realistic marketing strategy ? Advertisements, public promotions,etc.

AWARE stands by their CSE programme? Why? They still don’t get it? Do they?
In any case if AWARE is funded from external source I can see the reason for standing by it or else they have to refund the sponsors. No??

Also if if Catherine says ” In the foreseeable future, as more homosexuals come out into the open, the last vestiges of the old stigma against homosexuality will disappear altogether.”…..if in the future the growth rate of homosexuals is higher than the mainstream popultation..is there anything wrong Catherine???.

Yes Joe, they are continuing to harp on those things which have already being dealt with. We have to give them the space to celebrate while they still can. This, I think is fair. The winner has the right to gloat over the loser. It’s a fact of life, so we shall give them room enough to dance.

Thing is, what are they going to do after all these dancing? Issues of concern have been brought up. Parents are concerned. It is no use questioning where they had been, why they did not do this or that before this saga etc. These are unreal questions. The reality is they are now asking for clarifications and answers.

Things are evolving all the time. There is a serious breach of trust. Parents are now distrustful of MOE, of what AWARE actually stood for. It is no use for Dana to keep repeating the mantra that ‘all is well’ or ‘we stand by our program’. These do not answer nor do they quell the concerns of parents who are now in possession of this new discovery.

Josie have been accused of keeping silent, of not knowing what she represented etc. Is not the current situation the same? The old guards are not saying anything to address the concerns of these concerned parents. Where is the inclusiveness. Lots of smoke if you ask me.

ever had a discourse with a guy called Joel ?

discussing with him is like going to a dentist for a root canal…

Reflecting all that has happened, it certainly is true to say that :

“The truth will always come out”

Tiok boh tiok ??

Catherine Lim hold the view that we should accept how things change in society. Like divorces, cohabitions and homosexuality. Accept, I agree but to advocate is another thing. No parent with a right mind will tell their child that he or she need not be too concerned with choosing a right partner for marriage since divorce is such a common thing these days. Not even a divorced parent.

I also cannot imagine a Mother telling her daughter that there is no need for marriage, just co-habit with the one you love.

If you agree with me on the above two examples, wouldn’t you agree that no Parent will tell their kid that it’s ok to be gay when the issue has not cropped up yet?

I dare say all parents hoped for their child to be heterosexual and have a good lifelong marriage but if it doesn’t turn out that way, they too will accept the reality because of their love for the child.

My point again, `accepting’ does not equal `advocating’

socrates: They all are gathering for the pink dot day on May 16. Quick. Device a way to exterminate them.

(33)

Socrates, I mind it very much that you are using the name of one of the prophets in MY religion to post, especially when you don’t even sound like him, and worse, sound totally opposite. Please kindly stop doing that out of mutual tolerance and respect. I wouldn’t use ‘JESUS’ as my nick, so stop using Socrates.

Eh ? Huh ? Lu gong si me ?

socrates is a name of a prophet ??
I hope joe is not any religion’s prophets. If it is, thousand apologies. i will certainly change it to “i am stupid” . Solly, solly.

//In the foreseeable future, as more homosexuals come out into the open, the last vestiges of the old stigma against homosexuality will disappear altogether. We have witnessed how, one by one, the other moral stigmas of divorce, cohabitation, the loss of virginity, and going back even further, marriage outside one’s race, have all become a thing of the past. These changes seem to be part of a universal, spontaneous process of social(and biological) evolution seen in all societies(universe). They are neither good nor bad. They are simply part of the real world (universe)we are in.//
Looks like a scene from star war comes to life . Not just humans with mutated life style but crossed with aliens with heads of animals human bodies or human heads with animals bodies each exhibiting a certain sexual oreintation. What a world or rather a universe of the future. If You want kids just have them cloned in a lab or factory. The sexual organs are for pleasure and expression of relationship and not for procreation..Procreation is by cloning, you can choose the models, colours and gender.
Dr. Lim has given us a glimpse of the future world or universe that is inclusive and borderless.

A beautiful message. Well articulated and full of wisdom. Kudos to you, Catherine.

To:
#22) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 7th, 2009 9.46 am

Yes, I was at that talk. There were quite a number of unhappy people at that talk, insisting that AWARE was being callous and insensitive by not embracing lesbians and bisexual women in their agenda.

But Constance was very firm on what AWARE really was/is about. As a moderate I just could not understand why they insisted on AWARE being pro-gay, since AWARE’s mission is to serve ALL women, regardless of race, religion, class and sexual orientation.

So from what I remember of that talk, according to Constance, AWARE only recognises lesbians and bisexuals as women, and prefers to be blind towards sexual orientation.

If the MOE statement had come out earlier, I doubt this would have appeared?

“However, MOE’s assessment is that in some other aspects, the Guide does not conform to MOE’s guidelines. In particular, some suggested responses in the instructor guide are explicit and inappropriate, and convey messages which could promote homosexuality or suggest approval of pre-marital sex.”

oh what’s the obsession with sex? The only thing you seem to be concerned about and it all boils down to procreation and continuation of the human race.

And i think we can all agree that humans will continue to be attracted to the opposite sex and bear children, in wedlock or not.

Why don’t we change the debate to whether evolution is real? Do churches believe in evolution?

“Dr. Lim has given us a glimpse of the future world or universe that is inclusive and borderless.”

Watchman – good line. This is such a good line. I agree whole heartedly. I’m glad you have recanted.

Kudos to Strangeangel:
AWARE only recognises lesbians and bisexuals as women, and prefers to be blind towards sexual orientation.

(48)
don’t decontexualise leh.

the ‘only’ is used in the context of Aware’s stance towards lesbians and bisexuals, as could be understood if you read the whole passage.

such as,

“josie, why did you let men lounge in a place meant as a haven for abused women?”

“i ONLY let my husband sit there wat.”

Now, this ‘only’ doesn’t mean Josie only allows her husband to sit there, but that with regards to men who are allowed to sit there, she only permitted her husband as far as she is concerned.

Get it? or need more lessons in English?

Jer Lim, you have raised some interesting points. Although your post is directed to Catherine, may I as a reader ask you for clarification?

Scientific studies conducted in recent years have led to the conclusion that our physical and mental constitution is to a certain extent influenced by our genes. In other words whether a person is a homosexual is dependent on his genetic make-up and, to some extent, on cultural upbringing. You may not be aware but are you agreeable with the results of such studies?

Can you explain what is meant by “absolute morality”?

You seem to be blowing hot and cold in para 3; it is not clear what exactly is your position towards homosexuality.

Re your statement: “…. could redeemed their God given sexuality in accordance to their God given gender body.” Can you define “God”?

OK, let’s assume that when a person was born a homosexual [as we have just said, his genetic make-up being a major influence on his sexual orientation], would you say his physical and mental attributes are God-given?

I am not a Bible-believer. If the Bible says that God is against homosexuality, should I have to abide by the Bible’s teaching? If your answer is No, was it rational of you to say quote “it is un-respectful of you to say that ‘Homosexuality is NOT…an evil, an abomination in the eyes of God’” unquote. Why should it be disrespectful for someone to view homosexuality as not being an evil? Are you saying that we should all abide by what the Bible says?

My primary six son came home, and told me his female class mates were sharing information on porn site and links while in school.

The information and pictures – anal sex, homosexuality, lesbianism is all there in the internet.

It is good that the AWARE issue has highlighted to parents that such education begins at home – for all that MOE intends to withdraw from AWARE programme, the teachers better be up to par to do a better job.

The concern is that teachers may feel less than able to do this job, and our kids continue surfing the internet, and no one is teaching them about abstinance in a deliberate manner.

Throw out the baby with the water. Sigh.

I would rather AWARE continues with the programme, and as a parent, I do the necessary to impart what the different religious views and societal views are regarding touchy issues, instead of leaving a gap in this area.

MOE has reacted – what next? COOS materials?

In France, homosexuality has been legal for over 200 years, same-sex relationships are recognized under the law and there’s a ban on all anti-gay discrimination. By TSM’s logic, they would have had 10 generations of lesbians by now. Last time I looked, there were still French people around.

Neither is heterosexuality under imminent threat of extinction in the many, many other countries like France.

Aren’t those who believe that 2 lines in a teaching manual is going to turn ALL SINGAPORE GAY being a bit paranoid? Shouldn’t they be looking into the source of that paranoia rather than trying to dictate to others how they should live their lives?

got guy n girl dunwan to be, wan to be gays n lesbians? wat is this world coming to?

(52) move on, move on.

(51)
Yep, u got it right. we have MTV, we have lots of songs and movies with explicit lyrics. we have internet. it’s better for someone to discuss all these issues openly than to try to pretend we are from the medieval ages. last time, my junior college tried giving a sex talk, and the lecturer said, girls, it’s like having a cardboard tube stuck it u, and guys, it’s the same as if u push through a cardboard tube. so pls don’t say yes until you are married becos you are the temple of god.

wth does that mean?

As always majority and democracy rules….if so many parents are concerned about the CSE programme by petitioning about them being in the dark about the program while almost none(so far) voiced their support by petitioning to support the CSE program, we can only conclude that the majority do not support the CSE program.

my only concern from this fiasco is that we are allowing ourselves to be coloured by a certain type of thinking in the expense of others

i think, our community has been careful not shape, influence or colour shared spaces (with personal/ religious/ cultural values), especially, national spaces like schools.

though my personal feel, is that we are still a conservatice society by and large, we do not impose our values in shared-public spaces …

i tink, “liberal” thinking – values- or whatever its called- should also respect the unwritten rule …

if one starts to use expoit- the others will play the same game …

let differentiated values – be as it is – differentiated …

I think it is a tough call for teachers as well. I wonder whether lessons were videotaped..if so one could have an understanding what was taught the past two years using AWARE guideboo.. It is one thing to say anal sex is healthy and another thing to really know what was articulated. It is tough to teach sex education. Another example ..on Virginity in the CSE guide -”Virginity is a concept which is really difficult to fix, traditionally virginity is related to the hymen. But perhaps we can also think of virginity as a state of mind?” (Comprehensive Sexuality Education Copyright of AWARE 2007). How do you teach that?Does anyone really know?

50) Pri six son on May 7th, 2009 2.18 pm
You are right on! Almost every home has internet and children know how to get information from the net. They are not naive anymore. If the ministry were to conduct a survey on the percentage of students surfing the porno web, it will not be surprised that the percentage could be very high. The high moral standing of the petitioners to remove the CSE is just extremist thinking. However this extremist group makes loud noise and MOE is bowing in.

winstoncheng
“My point again, `accepting’ does not equal `advocating’”

How does treating homo as a neutral word equal to ‘advocating’ then? imo, it was with the aim of making the new generation to be more accepting that they made the word neutral. For if a label has a negative connotation, does one then not discriminate against it?

Hi rwkc
So far science has yet to prove that homosexual is a genetic issue, but recently I came across an interesting research that our environment or diet may influenced our genes and it will relate to our sexual behaviours.

2 Reasons for my statement:
Psychologist Ingeborg Ward of Villanova University, Pennsylvania, has shown that putting stress on pregnant rats reduces testosterone concentration in the male foetuses, and this can occur in specific periods critical for sexual differentiation in their brains. The result was male offspring with ‘persistence of feminine and impaired masculine sexual behaviour’.

Secondly, the consummation of soy beans globally or food that contains phyto-estrogen may disturb the hormones in a body, creating a mixed sexual orientation behaviour.

If both of the reasons above are possible (more test needed of course), I believe that our genes would be affected.

“Absolute morality” means believing that there is absolute bad (wrong) or good (right) in certain acts.

In para 3, I meant that in humanity, we need to love and respect, not to use religion as a means to oppress or condemned. Acceptance is important, just like we need to love and embrace the poor.We should not put salt on other people’s wound instead to speak for the rights of the oppressed.

But on the other hand, if absolute morality exists as how our conscience tells us, then as a humanity, we should work together in love and acceptance to correct the wrong.

In application, it may meant a thorough investigation of how diet and environment affects our sexual orientation, and how to create an accepting society that accepts homosexuals. As I sincerely believe, with the existence of absolute morality, no one is perfect, and who am I not to accept a homosexual and respect his/her rights?

My definition of God: The highest being who created us and the universe.

Concerning an assumption of a born homosexual with the prove of his genetic make up, I would say that God never intended a person to be born that way. That is the reason why we need to respect and love rather than to judge and oppress.

If recent science shows us that it is highly possible that our diet and environment influence our genes, then as a responsible humanity, we need to change the way we live and eat, and that starts from the government’s leadership.

Lastly, I need to make clear that when I say about being disrespectful, I am not saying about a person becoming disrespectful when he/she views homosexuality as not being an evil, but disrespectful to “placed God” in a position to view homosexual as not being evil. Because we are not God, and God has His rights as God on how He view homosexuality just as we have our rights to do so.

Hope these clarifications helps.

It is so easy to just use the gay issue as a smoke screen to digress from the main crux of the AWARE saga, i.e. the inability of different camps of women to see eye to eye.

Catherline Lim is right to say that gays will increasingly and inevitably be an integrated component of our society and ppl should not resist this tide by conveniently using established organisations to amplify their so called disgust. It is an extremely myopic stance and will only serve to counter the progress of modernity that we have built up over the years.

“So far science has yet to prove that homosexual is a genetic issue,”

“My definition of God: The highest being who created us and the universe.

Concerning an assumption of a born homosexual with the prove of his genetic make up, I would say that God never intended a person to be born that way. That is the reason why we need to respect and love rather than to judge and oppress.”

Has science proven the existence of god. yes ? no ? bingo, your definition. you would say that God never intended blah blah blah blah. well, afterall you define god and you also define god’s intention. you also define that so far science has yet to prove that homosexual is a genetic issue.

Fundamentialist christians are too blinded by christianity to be able to tell the difference between accepting and advocating homosexuality because they are taught to discriminate against anything that goes against God.

the battle is lost…and the war is lost too …
ignorance has prevailed and we are plunging into dark ages of pre-sex education…

Hey Catherine . If you have children in school now , then parents might listen to you.

Strongly agree with the mentions of how AWARE excos (both Dana Lam and Josie Lau’s) missed the opportunity to rein in the emotions so that we could have had a civilised proceeding.

I refuse to believe that Singapore’s civil society’s repressed lack of development, is any excuse for outbursts of incivility in -civil- society.

If homosexuality is natural then probably the world would be much less populous?

when HIV and AIDS was first realised in the world, many people had the misconception that it was spread by homosexuals. the misconception was not without ground, especially when Freddy Mercury had also succumbed to it and he had indulged in a promiscuous homosexual lifestyle. here’s quoting from a website about HIV / AIDS (The Body):

“HIV may be more easily transmitted through anal sex than vaginal sex for a few reasons.

1) The anal/rectal membrane tends to be more susceptible to micro-trauma (small tears in the membrane) which would facilitate transmission.

2) Some studies suggest that certain types of cells more prone to infection reside in the mucosal lining of the rectum.

3) Due to trauma, there is a greater likelihood for blood to be present during anal sex, increasing the chance for transmission to the top/insertive partner. ”

so tell me again if God intends gays to be natural since the anus is the only recepticle during sex between 2 males.

Can you imagine Singapore children growing up being shielded from all the truth about this world and eventually got a shock of their life when they come face to face with reality?

Who is gong to prepare them? The parents will never share anything like that because they are embarrass to do so. The church wouldn’t do it because they will just tell you it is an abomination, don’t need to know about it.

I once met a boy who was a gay, he engaged in gay sex as well. He knew nothing of it at all, his parents will never talk about such things at home. He heard about it from a friend, who also heard about it from a friend, who in the same way heard from another….. and so on. This boy was being told it is fun and he was asked if he would like to try it. Not knowing much about it he consented and it turned his life upside down. His parents knew nothing about it, his school and class mates knew nothing about it. When I asked him did he think he will caught HIV, he told me that is an adult gay problem. For a 17-year old boy, he will not get it. So he must try to turn straight by age 21. Needless to say, he learned it from his friend who also learned it from a friend and so on.. Ironically, he is a Christian and he is from one of the big and well known churches in Singapore. He should be 28 by now. I wonder how is he now?

The gay communities are filled with such stories and many are not by choice, but by experiments.

How is that for over-shielding you child?

Perhaps, and I do think your view is quite justified; but by pessismistically deeming uncivil behaviour from them, as “expected”, aren’t we cutting them slack in a way, shrugging the situation as a fated thing?

Why not subject them to the same civil society and commonsense rules normal people are expected to (or should) abide by?

I am amused that there are a bunch of stupid people in here that are saying that one should home school their kids if they do not trust the CSE. Also these same stupid people question why wait till now to question about CSE which has been running since 2006.

If I let you come into my house to steal repeatedly and one day I decided to catch you and bring you to the police, can you say that since you didn’t stop me previously, you cannot catch me now? Only stupid people will say that.

These same stupid people go on to say that there are so many bad influences in the world so you might as well home school if you want to stop it. You must give up internet. As a parent I want control of what my children are taught. Does it mean that I must vet everything that goes on in their lives? Its impossible. However, if it is brought to my attention that the message is wrong, I will definitely raise it. The government has acted rightly after reviewing the inappropriateness in part of the CSE. I believe the government has also been misled by the stealth operations of AWARE.

These stupid people should shut up until they are parents and understand the meaning of responsibilities.

Focus people. Stupid people will always try to confuse when they cannot convince. Its so easy. Why didn’t raise it 3 years ago? So many bad influence, go with flow or home school. Why not ask if the CSE is wrong? Nothing more nothing less.

CSE affect only students. Only parents should comment because it affects them.

Another point to consider

If we say

Homosexual is normal = does not mean we are pro-homosexual

does it mean that when we say

Having affairs is normal = does not mean we are pro-infidelity?
Premarital sex is normal = does not mean we are pro-premarital sex?
Queue cutting is normal = does not mean we are pro-queue cutting?
Using vulgar language is normal = does not mean we are pro-use of vulgar language?

As parents, we know things are not so clear to children. They will interpret that it is acceptable to have affairs, premarital sex, cut queue and use vulgar language. They are not able to know that there are instances that sometimes these things like affairs, premarital sex, queue cutting, vulgar language use happen. They may even engage in them when they become adults but until them, as parents, we want to state to them that its wrong and that they must not do it. As all parents know, we must be exemplary in conduct because our kids are watching us all the time. Once kids know something is acceptable, its extremely tempting for them to try – heck, even when it not acceptable some will already try.

So, if we say Homosexuality is normal, we are telling the kids that homosexuality is acceptable. What parent will say that?

Perhaps, this is well the anger towards CSE is focused on. It’s the sneaky way in which it is packaged to appear harmless but slowly changing the mindset to say that homosexuality is acceptable.

Parenting is already challenging enough. To have these hidden agendas being pushed makes in many times harder.

Hi Jer Lim,

In short, are you suggesting that homosexual inclinations are treatable? Are you leading us into this direction? It smacks of COOS theology.

Homosexuality as an “alternative lifestyle” has been making the rounds in the news cycle of late. While we’re on the topic, let’s talk about another type of alternative lifestyle: religion.

(Any) religion can indeed be properly defined as an alternative lifestyle because it proposes a distinctive moral and behavioural code meant to set it apart from non-subscribers of that code. A religious person abides by a certain ideological code because he/she appreciates it as a more congenial alternative to mainstream customs. The point is elucidated from a historical perspective, since every religion began as either a departure from preexisting religious traditions or an improvement on them, ergo an “alternative lifestyle”.

So when people who subscribe to a particular religious tradition denounce homosexuality as an “alternative lifestyle”, is it not a case of socialized hypocrisy?

Understanding that religion is in essence an alternative lifestyle that, once upon a time, was also viewed as a deviant movement which threatened the status quo of the socio-religious establishment and persecuted accordingly, how can we now, in good conscience, oppress those whom we deem deviants?

Perhaps if PARENTS take back the responsibility for their kids and learn HOW to communicate, then MOE will not need AWARE or anyone else to do the job for them. Lots of parents are NOT comfortable talking about sex to their children. Maybe it’s cos they are not comfortable with themselves in the first place. Perhaps it is the parents that have to be educated first. Then no blame game! I have decided to talk to my kids openly about this especially since I have shared with them the whole AWARE saga- at the end of the day, for every finger you point elsewhere, three others are pointing back to you. By the way I WAS at the EGM, I am a Muslim ( a fairly liberal one) , and a single mum to 2 teenage daughters. ( If divorce is BAD, as some of you think, I would still be deeply unhappy instead of being empowered as a result of the experience) . I would rather my girls learn from me than from anyone else including teachers, no matter how well-meaning.

[#59]

Jer Lim, tks for the clarification.

There are many women out there who need help. AWARE should stop wasting time and resources doing programs for schools and stick to its original purpose (unless of course they have changed the objectives of their organization….)

#59

I think you’re onto something. I’ve had several meals with soya beans this week and have begun to feel powerful urges towards “mixed sexual orientation behaviour”. I’m going to petition MOE at once, demanding the immediate withdrawal of all soya products from school meals. There is a line, brothers and sisters, and the nation shall not cross it!

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

Jer Lim,
What’s with your dislike of cohabitants? I noticed that in your post (#17), you listed cohabitation in the list of things that are ‘bad’. I’m curious; why?

I believe teachers hate teachng this module.

Thank God AWARE had some materials that could take the load off teachers.

Taking out the CSE module, MOE will take forever to come out with a new module to teach our kids.

With the heat, none of the teachers in school will be willing to teach this module properly, convincingly.

I am worried as a parent. I feel students should be given all the necessary information to make a proper judgement. To learn it from AWARE is much better than from the internet pornography .

As a parent, I just need to clarify and adjust the ’secular’ materials to suit my own religious beliefs.

Bring CSE back.

Hi Gemami
I do not know about COOS theology. And I would say I have seen reports on reduction of soy consumption, ensuring a healthy pregnancy etc to reduce possibility of imbalance hormones and creating healthy growth.

At this stage, I would say it is a immature science that requires more research.

You may or may not agree with what Cat Lim says or writes. But you have got to agree on this — she is always interesting. Well done, Cat, for speaking your mind on Aware, CSE, homosexuality, etc etc.
The Bible is full of the frailties of man through the ages. Man still struggles on, and survives, despite his many faults, foibles and frailties.
Throughout this long discussion in response to Cat Lim’s letter to concerned parents on the CSE, one point has not been made succintly: That we should be tolerant of all people, no matter who they are, what they do, including what their sexual orientation is.
I remember an episode from the good book which has remained in my mind all throughout my long life: Let the man who is free from blemish, let him cast the first stone.
I have taken liberties with the paraphrasing of that remarkable utterance, forgive me. But the intent of the remark — in protecting the fallen woman from the wrath of the righteous mob — is apparent. We should always remind ourselves of the need for tolerance if society is to progress.

#77
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53327

Tho’ it is not a proven science, but soy effects on our total being needs a thorough research, cos’ we have been influenced for so many years that soy is good.

“79) Jer Lim on May 8th, 2009 10.45 am
At this stage, I would say it is a immature science that requires more research.”

While science is constantly subject to scrutiny and rigorous falsification even among peers who may want to be the first to “steal” the limelight for certain discovery. are you and your kind be willing to subject yourself to such scrutiny and rigorous falsification.

80) Bad time for teachers on May 8th, 2009 9.41 am

you are right man. the moe cse module is just a drop in this present era of fast information (or non-information) in the wider internet ocean where more and more people are swimming in it. some of people still think they can scoop water out from their old strainer.

Hi, even science is not a perfect solution to everything. The scientific method says everything must be proven scientifically by experiments to be proven as “true” but it is a self contradicatory statement because the scientific method itself cannot be tested scientifically by experiment to be proven “true”.

86) LOL on May 8th, 2009 11.30 am
“but it is a self contradicatory statement because the scientific method itself cannot be tested scientifically by experiment to be proven “true”.

yes, and that almost everything we have today including the presence of internet is due to this simple humble understanding that science (and the clear-headed people in it) rigourously imposes itself.

Hi Jer Lim,

I suspect you are a sales person on a mission. Soon you are going to sell us some alternatives to soya beans. Are you?

Anyway good to know you are not leading us into some COOS theologies – whew! close call.

# 79) rachel

I would say in true love, commitment is most important, and cohabitation reflects a kind of fear to commitment to someone you loved, and installing this lack of commitment into our personality may not be the best way to enter a marriage.

Hi 88) Gemami
I am just a ordinary Singaporean who wants to: voice out
1. Voice out for the oppression of a minority of people who have different sexual orientations and are being “abused” with condemnations from those who are self righteousness.
2. To remind religious people here not to condemn or to judge these people cos we have no self-righteous rights to do so.
3. To create a possible learning attitude on how our issues faced (not only homosexuality, but also cancer, mental illness etc) relates to our environment, diet etc. (A holistic approach to life)

Lastly, I have nothing to sell nor I represent COOS or any particular group/organization. Ha ha :)

Pri six son wrote:

“The concern is that teachers may feel less than able to do this job, and our kids continue surfing the internet, and no one is teaching them about abstinance in a deliberate manner.”
…

I think you have not read AWARE CSE material thoroughly. It is not teaching abstinance. Abstinance is considered out of date, no longer effective way to prevent abortion, and so on …. And I think you missed the point: SEX education is your responsibility (go read MOE statement again) The school will supplement it. Go read it again and think deep deep. parent teach their kid that homo is unhealthy BUT CSE say it is neutral. So wat wrg with is?

AWARE CSE material SHOULD BE suspended. And not only that, AWARE is NOT a suitable vendor for the sex education program in schools. There are many other ppl that can teach this subject. AWARE can teach in many other places. This is not abt parents against AWARE. . And it is not a issue about christianity. I am toaist and a woman.

The issue is what parents want in the sex education.. We parents already have a lot to worry about where our children are concerned. We have no time for AWARE and their EXCO problem. This is a problem for their members .. keep it within AWARE.

Are you surprised or shocked by what your 6 yr old son told you? Why?
In my family, I initiate the discussion about Edison Chen sex photos when it came up on the internet. I ask my son did he and his classmates search for those photos. You think wat we teach him? Dont be like Edison Chen or if son b stupid like Edison store the photos in the PC? i wonder wat u tell your 6 yr old? OR u think he too young to discuss?

My kids all have their own computer and they have free access to internet. We chat on MSN. The whole family will be involved – visit their blogs and see their websites. Our children are precious.. Even learn to understand the very funny way they write sms .. we parents do not live in the well. You cannot hold back your children.

And i do not participate in forums to talk rubbish. this is a serious topics affecting our children. there is better thing for me to do during this down turn. Business is down. Why do i bother to express myself here? To let some of you know that parents care. Wen MOE says that there is no complaints from parents We parents must quickly check and respond. MOE is the one that pointed their fingers at parents. MOE use this statement to protect themselves ..

Not all parents are perfect .. there is no school teaching parenting skill. Some parents nagged too much. I agree parents need to learn to communicate with their kids. I encourage kids to try to talk to their parents. No matter wat you are gay or lesbians, your parents love you always. Till today, my mother still worry about me. Just imagine that she is already 80.

Have a Happy Mother Day.

Hi Jer Lim,

You say you have nothing to sell but you’ve just sold a string of what you wanted to ‘Voice Out’.

It’s a good catch-phrase to bring awareness (oh no, Aware again) to the circumstances of the down-trodden. A noble cause also. Keep it up!

The word lifestyle suggests choice because one actually chooses what lifestyle he/she leads. However, the term homosexual lifestyle is an oxymoron because nobody chooses to be homosexual – it just so happens that some people are borne homosexual and realise they are attracted to the same sex even before they know the word homosexuality exists.

i’m quite tired of the way some portions of the society paint homosexuality as a LIFESTYLE.

i am a homosexual 27 year old chinese singaporean male. I have had a wonderful upbringing and share a very close relationship with family. i’m out to all of them and yes it was trying for my parents but they are very graciously learning to accept this. For this i am very proud of them.

i did not have a disturbed childhood

i did not lack a father figure

i was NOT molested as a child

my family taught me very ‘mainstream’ values but in the end i still prefer men sexually.

The point i’m trying to get at is, homosexuality is something that cannot be explained easily and it is definitely not a choice for a lot of us. We didn’t know when it is or why we started liking the same sex. for me it was literally the next most natural thing to do. Put it this way, if i were to ask a heterosexual male why he liked women, do you think he can list out a whole range of scientifically factual answers and reasons? (and no i will not accept the “but it’s the most natural and right thing to do answer because then i will tell you honestly that i feel it’s the most natural thing for me to like men). Such answers are hard to find, figuring out one’s sexuality is not maths. there is not ‘this plus this will definitely equal this” in this topic and i do not think anyone will dare to stand up and say that he or she has the ultimate answer to this whole issue. and come on grow up, let’s not all hide behind God’s name because everybody today has different gods and there are some who don’t subscribe to religion.

some portions of the society make us sound like people who deliberately choose to lead this life, like as if it were a very conscious decision. Like as if i one day woke up, looked at myself in the mirror and said “hey today i think i’m going to go gay cos it will really go well with the snazzy new shoes i bought”

being gay is not a lifeSTYLE choice. it’s not as simple as choosing to be vegetarian or choosing not to wear fur. it is not a lifeSTYLE. it is our life.

so stop making us sound like dyonistic purveyors of the dark side, coupling us together under the same category as aids, drugs, sex, rock and roll. It is possible to be normal and gay at the same time.

It’s an orientation that cannot be explained easily and, frankly speaking, one that people should not be too bothered by because ultimately i’m still the same as anyone else besides the fact that i like men.

let’s make it clear, we didn’t choose to be gay. we just were gay and it really sucks to be misunderstood. it really sucks when you harbour this inexplicable feeling of liking the same sex and then hearing your dumb friends say things like “fags are gross!” while you are having lunch with them. Or worse still, having these feelings and then hearing your parents say “son, i will be very disappointed if you become gay”. do you think we feel good when we hear such things? it just adds to our confusion. No one likes to be slammed with blanketed misunderstanding and negativity. I experienced all this as a teenager and i’m glad i was strong enough to not fall apart. I couldn’t help the feelings i had. I didn’t CHOOSE to have those homosexual inclinations. You don’t choose such things.

Instead of hiding behind their archaic dogmas, i’d urge such sections of society to come out in the open, engage in the unfamiliar and GET IT RIGHT before making their assumptions and conclusions.

your ignorance absolutely shows and it ain’t making you look good.

Lee Mun Wai

“91) BB on May 8th, 2009 12.49 pm
Go read it again and think deep deep. parent teach their kid that homo is unhealthy BUT CSE say it is neutral. So wat wrg with is?”

1) would it be better if some parents say homosexual is neutral concuring with “CSE say it is neutral” in your own words.
2) saying that it is neutral does not give indication whether it is healthy or unhealthy.
3) likewise, could anyone impute that you mean that hetrosexual is healthy. if so, to what extent or even with different multiple partners ??? of course, you did not say it youself. likewise, CSE did not say that homosexual is heathy – you seem to have done it vicariously for them.

to BB @ 91)
Well said and thanks for sharing a parent’s view point.

About time the majority of main stream parents be pro active and give their inputs to MOE with regards to the subject matter in a “revised” CSE program.

It is important to impress upon MOE that since penal code S377A is still in place
then it is prudent to point this out to students to create awareness for state laws.
Happy Mothers’ Day !

Hi #94) lee mun wai,

“your ignorance absolutely shows and it ain’t making you look good.”

Thanks for sharing. You know what the problem is – and I am going to tell it as it is, in all honesty, no sugar coating, no hiding behind anything. Mainstream people do not have to look good to you. Sorry if it hurts but I thought you might want to know why people behave the way they do.

“96) truth hurts on May 8th, 2009 2.42 pm
It is important to impress upon MOE that since penal code S377A is still in place
then it is prudent to point this out to students to create awareness for state laws.”

some other code or law also “says” some physical violence can also result in non-seizable offences. do you think it is also prudent to point this out to students to create awareness for state laws. well, truth indeed hurts

Mun Wai

we respect and love you as a person. you have every right to be what you want to be or born to be. No one is criticising you or judging you and i do thank you for your openness and honesty..

But if you start telling people to be like you and start telling people that they should all be like you, then I am going to come and clobber you on the head and anywhere in your body which hurts you most.

see the difference..

thanks and stay cool.

hi joe,

Since when homosexuals started telling people to be like them and start telling people that they should all be like you? Stop accusing of things they never do and never will do.

Another point that I dislike the term homosexual lifestyle is that it invokes the idea of homosexual sex being a major component of one’s life. Do you know how illogical that sounds?

I personally don’t think any religion is a mark of stupidity but a certain religion has a strong case for it.

Dr Catherine Lim’s letter is an embodiment of common sense, reason and fairness. It should be read and reflected upon by all parents.

It is both funny and sad that in the year 2009, many people still insist that homosexuality is a choice of lifestyle, or the result of experimentation. Many more regard it as a sin or an aberration to be scorned. Given the way homosexuals are treated like pariahs, why would any of them choose to be gay? And if sexual orientation can be changed by experimentation, many gays would have been cured. Whatever the cause, why should homosexuality be treated as wrong, when it causes absolutely no harm to anybody? Its only effect on society is that a union of two gay people does not result in procreation. But that does not matter, since life on planet earth is already threatened to extinction by over-population.

The day of justice will dawn. In the meantime, we console ourselves by recalling that not too long ago the Catholic Church persecuted Galileo for saying that the earth revolved around the sun, and many Christians still believe the earth was created in seven days four thousand years ago and their earliest grandmother was created out of Adam’s rib.

94, I am not trying to be a spoil-sport to kill off your ‘homosexual life ….’
(a) I am talking in terms of findings that point to the fact that homosexuals are born. I personally did not come across a finding (including hormonal glands), that tells me this conclusively. If you did, I will learn from you.
(b) The other aspect I want to point out is, it does not mean if you are a homosexual, you are entirely irresponsible in all your ways. I am not making heterosexuals out to be perfect, but you need to recognise that there are homosexual practices that cannot be approved, and also used to influence the minds of the younger generations.
My point is this, you need to understand why there are people who do not agree with promoting homosexuality.
(I am trying not to use the same phrase as #97 though I fully agree with him/ her).

“I personally did not come across a finding (including hormonal glands), that tells me this conclusively.”

if you put certain stuff (wrong chemical stuff) into your body system, you may well see angels and saints floating about. our body is all chemically driven and most people are ‘fortunate’ having (borned with ?) the right chemical balance (hormonal) composition to be acting / behaving the right ‘acceptable’ way as far as gender is concerned. Some people may be born with certain inbalance or triggered by external stimulus to act the way they are acting – may not just gender but in other areas also.

conclusively ??? some people also say that smoking does not conclusively lead to cancer and it is not too difficult to find interested lobby to say that it does not.

the very fact that it is not conclusive is because there are just too many kinds of people around with many possibilities and things keep on evolving for you to nail it down conclusively – races, gender, physique, learning abilities, etc. How else did SAR and the current swine virus appear out of a sudden.

can anyone conclusive prove that any type of gland or whatever gene, cell, etc(either top or below) will lead to any specific point along the continum of the many different areas (just to name a few (e.g races, gender, physique, learning abilities, etc.)

Mun Wai (94), I admire your honesty and bravery.

I agree with you totally. I did not choose to be gay. If there is a choice, I would rather be straight, and be embraced by society.

I have a relative who is a closet gay. He succumbed to parental pressure and married. He has since left his wife and kid to work in another country, coming home only once or twice a year. I don’t think he makes love to his wife any more. Is this the choice that society wants?

hello,

kf in repsonse to (102): you’re not being a spoil-sport at all and i do appreciate your comments. Thank you. Yes we do not have conclusive evidence that homosexuals are born. we do not have conclusive evidence of the opposite other (that heterosexuals are born). there’s a plethora of debate out there about where there sexuality is nurture or nature. I’m speaking from my own personal point of view cos i know that I and the few of my homosexual friends who discuss this topic agree that it was nature for us.

like i said in my comments in (94), we still don’t know what causes sexuality leanings and orientations. i know for a fact though that a lot homosexuals i talk to know in their hearts and minds that i was not A LIFESTYLE CHOICE THEY MADE. they just were.

I am not trying to sound diadactic to you and i no way am i trying to change you. You don’t have to “learn from me” even if one fine day the studies finally prove this or that.

as to your point (b), I ask you: what about the heterosexual activities that cannot be condoned what about those? but before we launch into yet another “pot calling the kettle black” type arguments, I want to extend a big thank you to you for being the type that recognises that homosexuality does not equate to less than favrouable behaviour. I only wish there were more like you because the truth is right now, the “some portions” of the society that i referred to in my posting (94) perfer to only focus on our negative aspects and not our positive. This is what makes me indignant.

not “agree[ing] with promoting homosexuality” is one thing (and something i can agree with you cos i sure as hell know that i do not have any moral authority over another) but not completely understanding the situation of the party is another. And what i’m trying to correct is this misconception help by some sections of society who believe being homosexual is a LIFESTYLE CHOICE.

still, I totally understand where you’re coming from KF and i’ll bear in mind what you said.

In general response: After re-reading my post in view of some responses directed to me, i’d like to say that there was no part in my posting where did i urge/coerce/force anyone to be like me. (read: joe, posting (99) ). My posting was just about indignance over the supposed view that homosexuality is seen AS A LIFESTYLE CHOICE held by some sections of society.

I am pretty aware of the general views that singaporean society holds with regards to being gay. Hell, i’ve been gay all my life. Such views aren’t life threatening and i am aware of the need for asian style restraint on my part when dealing with such matters (traditional views, orthodox elders, blah blah blah) but wouldn’t it be better if we all met halfway? Views have changed, there is increased tolerance but we just have to work on it some more. Hence my post.

in response to Gemini (101): thanks for your views. let’s try to get them to see our point, slowly. Some people still don’t get it that it’s not about conversion but about increased understanding, that’s all. Like you said, people once thought the earth was flat *wink*

in response to gemami (97): glad to know your stance on how you want to project yourself publicly.

in response to joe (99): i will ’stay cool’ like you’ve suggested. I can’t say the same for you though, resorting to supposed violence when met with unfamiliarity. Maybe the ’stay cool’ part should be said to you?
stay cool, pal.

Lee Mun Wai

#105,
“What about the heterosexual activities that cannot be condoned what about those?”
That’s why, I thought earlier, I already put a comment in 102, anticipating your response in 105….., but could have been more explicit :
As a heterosexual, “I am not making heterosexuals out to be perfect…….”
Why do non-homosexuals focus on the negative aspects ? (note : the question is not why do you think non-homosexuals focus on the negatve aspects)
In order to answer this question, you first need to list down various traits/ behaviours that are different between a homosexual and a non-homosexual. Then you will find that the mainstream society actually doesn’t reject some of them. (They may raise eyebrows, but doesn’t mean strong disapprovals).
The issue starts when homosexuals have practices which are beyond mere frowns, and of which are defended tightly.
At this point, it is more appropriate for me to exercise restraint instead of going deeper into specifics cos some discussions can be unduly explicit, and my priority is to respect the general audience here. Hope you understand.
The other point concerns frustrations you have when people talk about homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. I cannot be sure this explanation helps. In the early days when homosexuality first started, I can tell you that there were proponents who came in to stamp it as a lifestyle choice. I do not deny that there are people out there who do not even know this :-) Until you realise this is the case, (I think) you will still feel frustrated…..

Dear All,

I respect that everyone have their own choice of lifestyle and we should accept each others.

For those stealthy and deceitful “people” quietly go to school to influence and recruit young innocent children to increase your life style population. You are not a human being.

Looks like there’s alot of people here who is trying to hijack the discussion.

The question is whether CSE is appropriate.

The confusion ruse is being played out again as always – a typical dirty tactic by losers.

The question is if the positioning of Homosexuality to be stated as neutral is right for sex education for students. Its not a statement to adults. Its not to condemn the gay community.

That question should be answered by parents. Parents who are responsible for their children. Just like how our schools are run, it the parents that should have the say. No, its not for students to have the say because they are not ready.

So, please if you want to be pro-gay, please go somewhere else and push this. Don’t try these underhanded tactics as if you are having some intellectual discussion. Oh, please save your story about how you are gay not by choice and how your upbringing is so so normal and yet you are such.

Finally, the concerned parents are simply saying that CSE should be stating basic information about sex. Anything about homosexuality should be completely silent. If its brought up, its should be stated that it is asked to the parents and for parents to impart the values they want. the trainer must keep his opinions to himself – regardless if he is pro and anti-gay.

Anyway, it is a fact taht homosexuality is not a fundamental basic framework for a stable family and I am sure all parents will feel that teaching homosexuality as neutral is against what they wish for their kids.

So, please focus and stop hijacking the topic.

ok, i’ll try to ‘focus’ as appealed by Sick of Hypocrites (108).

The question at hand being whether CSE appropriate.

i think the CSE in question is very appropriate because finally there are people who are teaching and education not from the angle of fear and taboo but from presenting other sides of the story. NOTE I DID NOT SAY PRESENTING THE FACTS, I SAID PRESENTING OTHER SIDES OF THE STORY. Let’s not argue about what is factual or not anymore, obviously we all have and believe in our own facts. But what i think is good about the way the CSE in question is being taught is that it does not use fear as one of its tactics.

You say “No, its not for students to have the say because they are not ready.” I beg to differ. I teach secondary level kids now and I dare say that they perhaps know (or are willing to know more) than us adults. Parents, yes they have legal right over their children till a certain age. But to doubt the cognitive level of these teenagers is presumptuous. They are capable of much more independent thinking than you credit them for. You can’t fool them. They want and should have the facts laid out bare to them. Then when they go back and discuss it with their parents, they will see many sides of the debate. what side they choose is up to them but at least they saw as many facets as possible.

Parents want to protect their kids, granted. and maybe i’m playing the idiot here cos i’m not a parent yet but i do feel that parents need to take into consideration the times that they and their kids are living in. The method that our mainstream has been using is beginning to look dated in the age of information overload. You won’t be able to shield your kid from all the bullshit being flung at him/her anymore so you might as well make sure he/she knows what’s being flung at him/her.

and that’s what i feel Aware’s CSE was trying to do. Not to tell them to accept, enjoy and like the bullshit flung at them, but to be dully informed about it so they know how to deal with it when they meet it.

you also say “stating basic information about sex” I ask you, what constitutes basic information regarding sex? that the penis of a male human is inserted into the vagina of that of a female? then we list the whole hormonal cycle of the process and stop there? we all know the whole package is more complicated than the mere biological process itself. it entails culture, personality, identity, personal emotions….what about that part of the issue? who’s going to teach that? the parents? ok, fine, but are all parents doing so? who is going to answer the kids’ questions? we were all at that age once and i’m sure we all remember the times we struggled by ourselves when dealing with this topic at that age.

and if CSEs should only limit themselves to “stating basic information about sex” then the MOE might as well not waste money because the science curriculum already deals with this. and if, like you said, “anything about homosexuality should be completely silent” and that if asked the CSEs should refer the kid back to parent for answers.. aren’t you absolving your responsibilty as a sexuality educator? do we necessarily want such sexuality educators? the ones who talk only about the “the basic information about sex” and heterosexuality and then shun all the complications that come along with the topic, referring the kid back to their parents? and what if some of these parents refuse to answer the questions? where does the kid go to? and there you have it, we have another generation repeating the same viscious cycle…. and sometimes you wonder why society takes such a long time to change.

Lee Mun Wai

@Sick of hypocrites… you said:

“As a parent I want control of what my children are taught. … CSE affect only students. Only parents should comment because it affects them.”

That question should be answered by parents. Parents who are responsible for their children. Just like how our schools are run, it the parents that should have the say.

I disagree that parents should have the only say (even though I acknowledge that parents should have the larger say). All of us pay taxes to support the state-run education system. All of us, when we grow old, will have to depend on the collective efforts of the next generation, to keep our society going. And how Singapore society will be like 30, 50 years from now, entirely depends on what we teach our children today. All of us, whether parent, potential parent or non-parent, therefore have a stake in the proper education of our future generations. The state-run education system is and should not be controlled solely by the wishes of whoever happen to be parents right now.

A parent’s responsibility is to love and nurture his or her child unconditionally. That responsibility is based on an individualized, emotional parent-child bond. The responsibility of state-run schools is different; they aim to realize every child’s potential to contribute to society in the fullest way possible. A school is thus not just a surrogate parent, devoted to one particular child; its responsibility is to help secure Singapore’s future.

We all have a stake in that future, in ensuring that what we (and the generations before us) have worked so hard for is not undone tomorrow. This applies as much to the CSE programme as to any other aspect of education.

“Finally, the concerned parents are simply saying that CSE should be stating basic information about sex. Anything about homosexuality should be completely silent.”

How is homosexuality not “basic information about sex”? Homosexual people are an undeniable fact of our lives: they are on TV, in the news, on the Internet; some are closeted, some aren’t. Kids are already aware of this. They taunt each other “gay” or “les”, shun their ‘butch’ or ‘effeminate’ peers (which they casually label as queer), talk lewdly in public about anal and oral sex (to the horror of bystanders), vandalize the toilet walls and the backs of bus seats with graphic depictions of the ‘unnatural’ deeds…

I think homosexuality has to be brought up, and not grudgingly like some skeleton out of the closet. If pre-marital sex, underage sex, contraceptives, teen pregnancies, anal and oral sex among heterosexuals, etc. can be brought up openly and dealt with squarely, why not homosexuality? We can tell the kids that homosexuality is morally controversial, and that the topic ultimately depends on one’s personal, family and religious values. At the same time, we can give them factual information about homosexuality. And those facts include: (1) gay sex is criminalized in Singapore; and (2) regardless of whether homosexuality is ‘nature’ or ‘nurture’, no credible scientific study has shown that homosexuality (or heterosexuality) is a matter of the individual’s deliberate choice.

Lastly (and this, IMO, is the most important part), educators can stress that, whether homosexuality is wrong or neutral, it is always wrong to bully or discriminate against someone because of their sexual orientation (or what some kids assume is another kid’s sexual orientation). All those needless homophobic insults, which I’ve often seen youths hurl at one another, have got to stop. There’s too much pain and depression, too many suicides, which we can ill-afford to ignore. The CSE programme is one of the best avenues for tackling the problem head-on.

No need to view videotape of AWARE CSE sessions now. According to today;s ST
“The principal – who did not want his name or that of his school to be used – then agreed to engage the group for one session.

After this, however, he decided to stop the sessions as ’some of the values communicated were different from what the school believes in and the programme was not a good fit’. He did not elaborate. ”
Minister said AWARE CSE exceeded guidelines. Read about it in ST today.

jonathan (#107), i’m sorry but i had to laugh when i read your comment, the concept you’re proposing is just so ridiculous: “people quietly go to school to influence and recruit young innocent children to increase your life style population”

whaaaat, how exactly does one “recruit” and “influence” someone else to be gay?! your sexuality is your own lifestyle choice, i don’t think there’s recruitment offices and training camps like you’re making it out to be. i mean, how the heck are you going to “influence” someone to be gay – make them watch gay porn till they cave?!

totally agree with you, La Nausee, with your views in (110).

understanding and being informed. that should be the way to go.

not fear, doubt and ignorance.

Lee Mun Wai

What abt yr take on the reversal of MoE stand on the CSE.

Not often government back-tracks.

And where (if any) would you have revised piece if the second MoE statement had come out before the above was published. Might not be so optimistic abt change in public view of GLBTs?

Catherine misses the point that there is a difference between

a) kids reading and seeing material on the web pages of the Internet while alone,
b) kids giggling or blushing when they do that with other friends

and

c) an appointed speaker paid for by their school telling them that “homosexuality is neutral”.

it is a BBBBIGGGGG difference!

Can someone confirm that this is true or not?

1. Constitutional amendments at the recent EOGM were made to allow men (associate members of AWARE) to have full voting rights?

2. Some men took the stand declared their homosexual status and announced their support of the Comprehensive
Sex programme to the loud cheer of the old guards.

I did not read this in the Press..so maybe not true???

#112

Spot on. I can’t understand where this paranoia comes from. It’s like they’re scared
that one day they’ll be walking down the street checking out the ladies in a “mainstream, healthy lifestyle” way, but then all of a sudden, KABOOM, damned if those sneaky homos haven’t slipped me one and turned me gay!

Isn’t there a name for this – heterosexual hysteria?

It is not a fact that gays are born that way, but a held belief or a matter of opinion. The elusive Gay Gene has yet to be found.

http://www.narth.com/menus/born.html

Even if, say, some are in fact “born that way”, can it be said that ALL gays are born that way? There are probably a significant proportion who became that way as a result of what happened to them in their lives. And there are also some who practice homosexual acts by choice, and even as a preference.

to james (117) and elise (112)

haha, you guys are hilarious. i’m trying to picture this scenario for real and i’m just laughing out loud now.

kudos to the both of you for pointing out this hilariously nonsensical concept.

Lee Mun Wai

to 110) la nausée

Homosexuality is not the only sex issue in society today.

Child sex, animal sex, incest, pedophiles, etc – where do you draw the line. Should CSE include these to be comprehensive?

A response to la nausée (110)

On who has a right to speak on what is to be taught – That may be your view that you not being a parent or even any gap person out there have a right to say what should be taught.

I am totally against that. You have no right to determine what my child shoud be taught. Only the collective majority of parents opinion should be considered. You want to have a say, be a parent. Its like saying that you want to influence how my child’s upbringing is supposed to be. That’s interference in my family. Even the government agrees that the program needs to be suspended. They have been caught off guard by this underhanded method of sneaky this information. You should first take it up with the authorities and convince them that your view is correct before you bring it up here.

The majority of parents will want to be the ones to impart the values towards Homosexuality. This being the case, it should be silent less the values which is not consistent with what the parents want.

Sure, you have all those messages in songs, movies, TV, papers, magazines, etc. That’s why as a parent, its so tough to have to explain it and set the right values that we want to impart. My child may reject these values when they grow up and become an adult but until then, thats the values I will taught and want to impact. I do not need some one who has no responsibility for my child to come and tell my child what he or she should view about a controversial topic.

Again, CSE is no place to make any statement on Homosexuality. The point here is that the government has set what the guidelines what should be in the CSE and the Aware program has violated it and is rightly suspended. Period. Deal with it.

Check this out: South China Morning Post p.C3 (printed edition)

75pc of public want tougher Web censorship
————————————————————-
A survey on the review of the Control of Obscene and Indecent Articles Ordinance shows the general public is more in favour of regulating cyberspace than the internet community.

More than 75 per cent of the 1,531 interviewees aged 15 or above think government regulation of obsence and indecent articles online should be “stricter than it is now”.

http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2c913216495213d5df646910cba0a0a0/?vgnextoid=c164f3bbb2021210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&vgnextfmt=teaser&ss=Hong+Kong&s=idx_News

On the point of whether parents should have exclusive say on the CSE programme and its content, I think John Lui in today’s ST (link) put it better than I could ever have: “Your rights to keep your child ignorant about sex ends where my tax dollars start to fund public medical programmes for STDs, juvenile delinquency schemes and prisons for people screwed up by being born to poor teenage mothers.”

Ok…

Suppose CSE removes the mention of homosexuality and anal sex. What happens if a student asks about homosexuality. What should the instructor say then?

well Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) (124) according to Sick of Hypocrites (108), the instructor should not say anything except: “please ask your parent, not me.”

then Sick of Hypocrites goes on to imply in his/her response (121) that he/she and only he/she should have the right to teach his/her child. a very concerned parent he/she is. and i’m glad for that, let’s hope he/she truly practices what he/she preaches because i sure am not seeing kids these days being very well brought up, me being a teacher and having to face them myself.

I’m sure if all parents were as prudent, loving and nurturing as Sick of Hypocrites then maybe singaporean youth might not be as degenerate and uninformed as they are now.

I sincerely hope you’re as prudent a parent as you make yourself out to be Sick of Hypocrites, cos if you are then i’m very happy that your child’s/children’s moral and character building is/are well taken care of.

If not, we are always her to extend a helping hand to you. Maybe if you get to know us a little better, you’ll realise we aren’t that bad. haha. Seriously, stop freaking out…i’m sure your children are amazingly smart. you might have total and absolute responsibilty and ownership over your child/children but they are humans also, not your handbags and shoes. So stop making them sound like inanimate property. they need their own voice too. expose them to more and stop freaking out. teach them to understand, empathise and decipher, not fear and shun.

One day, they’ll be on their own anyway, you do realise that don’t you.

Lee Mun Wai

To la nausée, Zefly, Lee Mun Wai,

I have never discriminated against gays. I teach my children to love the person – does not manner what he has done but not the act. Btw that christian faith view.

I do not claim to be the perfect parent but I try really hard.

I pay taxes too – an alot of it. I am not trying to say I make alot but in a similar manner, my money goes to national development. I do not go around and say that your rights are to be removed if the gay community is in need of funding?

I have always maintain your right to your choices as adults. Do not try to impose your views and values on my children.

Whether other parents are as responsible as me is not my concern but the collective majority of what the children should be taught on homosexuality should be decided only be the parents not non-parents. The fact is that you do not have the responsibilities for the children’s future is enough of a reason. Its at least 21 years of full responsibilities for each child and guess what, it never ends after they turn adult.

I am totally aware and expect that my children will grow up as adults and make choices. I teach them that and make it known that some of those choices may not be what I approve but that’s theirs to make. I will always be there to advise even if they do not like what I have to say.

I have maintained that I do not comment or tried to influence on the gay community based on my values. I will fight every step of the way if any one from the gay community try to influence how my family values are taught based on theirs.

Last thought for you. Consider why the government refuses to lower the voting age? Will they allow voting at 12? or 15? or even 18? Its because of the fear of immaturity and being able to make the proper decision. (note proper will mean different things to different people but when you are an adult, you can take responsibility for that decision),

On question about homosexuality, I believe the trainer should make it clear that there are different values. State clearly that

1. It is not situable as a stable family structure. (also government’s position)
2. there are different viewpoints
3. trainer is not to offer his/her opinion (official or personal) as it is out of the scope of the program.
4. it depends on your own faith and family values.

Is this anti-gay? Of course not. It just respects the parent’s right.

#128, thanks for your response to my question. I believe most of it is reasonable enough. However, I would also suggest that even though the trainer has to remain neutral, it is only responsible to say that everything that has been taught in the CSE about safe sex extends to those who believe they have different gender preference.

Reading the CSE trainer’s manual and hearing what the Old Guard had to say, I believe that this is their stance as well. It’s not so-much promoting acceptance of gays, but if safe sex has to be promoted, gays and lesbians cannot be made to feel the topic is only relevant to straight people. That is why I feel that the CSE cannot state that homosexuality is morally wrong (it has to be left to the parents)- because, let’s face it, there will be people among the audience who may not be straight, and the last thing we want them to do is to ’switch off’.

Like it or not, society as a whole, and not just the GLBT community alone, bears the burden of consequences of unsafe sexual practices among the GLBTs.

This isn’t about a clash of values, but making sure everyone wins at the end of the day.

To #118) Are ALL Gays Born That Way?

I understand even amongst the medical profession, there’s great debate on this subject. So the debate goes on: biological or psychological or how much of a blend between the both. Even all neurologists acknowledge the complexity of the brain is so immense they have yet to grasp its complexity.

Some the commentators seem to reject/object propositions that therapy have helped those with sexuality identity issues ie especially those cases who have decided to be ex-gays. Here, I’m not suggesting the endorsement of NARTH therapy programs. I am referring to therapy in general which brought closure for the individual concerned.

As a result of such successes, there will always be great debate. It would have been so so much simpler if science has discovered an equation/gene to substantiate which ever the proposition.

The great homosexual debate did not start during this century. The debate has already played out in early human history – Greek / Roman /Mesopotamian / Chinese / Indus civilisations. As a species, homo sapiens have survived these thousands of years due to its societies’ heterosexual relationships being the norm. Perhaps because of this, “mainstream conservatism” seems to guard its stand that heterosexual relationships is a fundamental to its societies’ survival.

The comments on this thread too is starting to attract nothing but personal attacks and derogatory remarks.

This thread is now closed for any further comments.