I believe the basis that gives such conversation therapy credibility is that yes, ultimately he/she will stop engaging sexual contact with the same sex.

You can change someone’s sexual behaviour but you can never change his sexual orientation.

interesting.conversely can one be deprogrammed from being a heterosexual? choices should apply both ways.

Choices Ministry is a farce. Anyone can be trained to suppress his sexual desires and live a life of abstinence (from having sex with the gender he is attracted to) – whether gay or straight.

If even the most determined person like Lung cannot rid himself of homosexual desires, then it is proof that (most) gays cannot change who they are attracted to. “De-gaying ministries” offer false hope and only force people into unnatural* patterns of behaviour.

*Yes, I said unnatural. If it is you are innately attracted to members of the same sex, or instinctively act in a feminine manner, then that is your “natural” orientation/behaviour. Those who claim otherwise are confusing their value-laden, culturally-influenced notions of proper behaviour with what “natural” really means. Natural simply means what comes natural to YOU, and not what OTHERS think is correct behaviour.

I am deeply troubled that Choice ministry even took the effort to correct what they perceived as effeminate behavior. What has that got to do with being gay or not? I know ‘effeminate’ people who are straight, and alpha-male type persons who are gay. It is sad that for all that talk of love, they can’t even accept how a person chooses to sit. It’s all about control, and nothing else.

There is a very high chance that Mr Lung may actually be suppressing his emotions with guilt and a sense of piety and actually still have the same-sex attraction he claims to have lost.

Sounds suspiciously like a class in abstinence and psychological manipulation, according to stereotypes of how girls and boys should behave.

Interesting though, how Leslie Lung claims how such therapies caters to all religions, yet prayer sessions were reported in Mr. Ow’s account…

Also, religion seems to feature a lot in Leslie Lung’s internal struggle against his own attraction to men.

To me, this programme or therapy seems to be skewed towards Christianity…

Also, if the therapy claims to offer successful conversion, why pair ex-gays with ex-lesbians? Isn’t that a recipe for disaster, akin to pairing up two ex-alcoholics with one another? What if homosexuality is indeed genetic – could the ex-gay and ex-lesbian potentially give birth to a baby, predisposed to be gay/lesbian?

Another thought I had was if the Christians themselves mind their sons, daughters or themselves, marrying someone who is ex-gay, ex-lesbian, ex-transexual… If not, would it mean that, deep down, they don’t believe that homosexuality can be changed?

And on that note – are there any straight girls out here who would marry Leslie Lung – an ex-transsexual hopeful? :)

The article seems to assume that being gay equates to being feminine. This is untrue. Most gay men I know are not feminine at all. They have no interest whatsoever in becoming women. They are into sports and adventure, and behave in no way different from heterosexual men – the only difference is that they cannot have physical or emotional intimacy with women.

If you force gay men to marry and have sex with women, some of them can do that, but they would suffer from intense unhappiness and some would have secret affairs with men.

Similarly, you cannot force heterosexual men to have sex with men. The physical act is easy – many heterosexual Thai men work as male prostitutes servicing male clients – but they would resent what they do and would never be able to have real intimacy with men.

What many Singaporeans do not realise is that there are gay people around them all the time. GLBT account for 10% of most population, according to scientific studies. In Singapore, they are not visible because GLBT fear being discriminated.

For those who think they have changed or is about there, I hope they meant it from the deepest bottom of their heart. Otherwise, they will live the life of self betrayal to themselves or their spouses. Suppressing desire to love someone of the same sex is painful and forcing to love the opposite sex add to the challenge if not tormenting.

Majority of people married for sex and if you think you can regularly meet your spouse sexual demand and still maintain a happy sexual life which is true to yourselves, than you are close. If you think you can live the rest of your life under such situation, than good for you because you probably have changed – for your family sake but not the root of you. Am I right Mr Lung?

If conversion can truly happen, then it surely can go the other way, no?!!!

But of course, this is about denial. It is about forcing someone to live an impoverished life devoid of partnership and expression of love. It is an abomination against the god-given mandate to live our best lives. This is like staying in an abusive marriage for the sake of avoiding divorce. Lives unlived just to suit some man-made dogma. So sad. Such wastes of lives that could have been joyous and fulfilling.

Why can’t these so called christians leave other people alone? Why are they so obsessed with homosexuality unless they themselves are homosexuals! I dont see any homosexual groups going out there to convert heterosexuals or christians. But I sure see christians meddling in other people’s lives, forcing their beliefs down others’ throats.

Does anyone else find it weird that these christians talking passionately about “what the gays do”? If they are not interested, why would they think about or harp on about it?

Hi Thio,

Leslie Lung is from Liberty League, which does not claim to do any form of therapy. Only Choices does it.

Hi Freedom to Love,

it just so happens that the first two person i interviewed happen to be more feminine. I have no intention of implying that all gays are.

being gay is misery. that’s what these self-appointed moral police really want in their agenda to de-programme them. they would rather help these gays become ‘normal’, depressed and suicidal.
well, if it helps them score points in heaven then, whatever.

I realized lately there had been quite a handful of controversial social issues published regarding “Mankind” treatment of sort. “Mankind” here is to be construed as Earthly Humans of all genders (to be technically correct). I have sidelined myself from making comments on what I have read thus far regarding these issues as I thought to myself who am I to criticize or understand what my fellow human think. I have always have this notion of believes that every human beings on earth are unique and only thyself can understand their wants and needs. However, after reading all sorts of prerogative insinuations, sarcasms, racist and discriminatory remarks posted, I think it had hit my limit of tolerance, so I decided its time to partake and give my perspective on these issues with these self imposed OB markers:

1) Separation of Church and State
2) Do not bring in religion into discourse
3) Discriminatory & Racist remarks (I like to think that this is associated with the maturity and exposure of a person).

Within the context of these published articles, this council group, are there any indications of sort that this group of counselors is internationally qualified or certified therapist (if they deemed Homosexuality is a disease and I am assuming they are self proclaimed)? Or is this purely a human to human counseling without any sort of proven monitoring program. If there is any proven progress monitoring program, what is it call and how does the progress monitoring program works? Since I read so many comments wanting to use scientific data to prove its point, I think it is fair and reasonable to apply the same logic or this is very selective? Or is this because someone says so? If matured adults are so easily coerce into this believe, I can only say that these group of people really have a weak mind and may be it is appropriate to seek qualified therapy to uncover your potential brain power that you had all along suppressed by your own self denial. That is your birth RIGHT. No insults intended. While I am at this RIGHT issue, I like to share this perspective with all readers and posters; “Do not to others that you do not to thyself”.

We are talking about our fellow planet human beings that had the same genetic make up, not some alien beings. Even world renowned experts are unable to determine the cause and aptly classified it as an orientation (this is not without controversy either). The genetic make up of a human is so complex and there are so many areas where no amount of well researched scientific data can provide the absolute answers. However, while the quest to fully understand our Human potentials and shortfalls by these worldwide enthusiastic researchers, I wish to make a public call to urge all human earthlings (Singaporeans included), please be kind to each other if your human brain is still able to think and act rationally. Not all issues can have an immediate resolution and some will always remained as controversial as it begins. It will be good to channel our energies to harmonious living here within and around the world.

Sincerely,

Observer (SG-HK)

I think the Church is trying but they do not know how. Sometimes they win, most time they don’t. And I say “most time they don’t” because I do not believe that they have the expertise or years of studies to do this.

I say let the gays be gay (happy), let them do what they wish and practice what they choose.

Politics is about negotiation and striking the balance between conflicting interests. And for that, repealing 377a should never be brought up and should never ever be exercised. Doing so will only escalate the conflict and unbalance the relationship.

The best therapy for homosexual is not about teaching them how to turn heterosexual but to find out the reason why gay wants to change. I find it more fruitful to ask such question because people might turn straight for the wrong reason and not because their sexual orientation has changed. I know of a gay friend who wanted to turn straight because he is a reject in the gay world. However he does have a very closed female friend whom he thought he might get married to and than lead a “normal” life from there. His meaning of normal is to have a woman as legal companion in this life and nothing more. When pressed further about his choice, all I get from him is denial and retaliation of himself and not getting what he wanted, repsectively, in the gay world. So much for wanting to change and getting married without wanting to know what future lies after that,

The government should really check out organisations like Choices which are just fundamentalist groups in disguise of mainstream organisation. Choices sounds like another farce like Focus on the Family. Such wholesome names but with dark agendas.

My question to such is that ‘Why is there a need to change?’
1. Because the bible say so? But what if i am not a Christian. So what is the point. Does it make sense that it is offered to other religious? There are religious like Buddism and Toaism (majority of SG) that are ok with LGBT.
2. It sound like a mind and behavior control program. And all these are superficial. Just coz one’s behavior has changed somewhat which is totally achievable does not make one change its orientation.
3. Sinclair Roger is a trans. So how is he qualified to help gays? And since this is no a therapy but more like a one to one help, so how can Sinclair Roger be credible?
4. Abstience – that is achievable. Why shld LGBT be the target for abstience and not heterosexual?
5. Why create misery on a grp of minority that hv a tough road ahead. SHld not the message be Love is unconditional. And it does not matter if ur behavior is more feminie or not – ppl should just love and accept.

I believe a lot of ppl whom bother to go to Choices just need acceptance. And this ministry seemingly accepts them on the surface until these ppl that seeks help realise that once they cannot follow the program, they will be cast out again. I think this is worst than just blatantly not accept the LGBT. It is the worst i hear.

I have met a few homosexuals who have indeed changed. From my experience, the more masculine gays have a higher chance of conversion. The bitter pill in the beginning is denial, but if you keep persevering, then you’ll realise that intimacy–both physical and emotional–is possible with the opposite gender.

After all, gays like to assert that human sexuality is fluid, and lies on a continuum. If they reject notions of sexual fixity, then why be hypocritical and make the claims that gays cannot change?

I agree that Choices is somehow tainted with its religious connotations. This makes it less credible in the eyes of secular gays. Which is why I’m always been advocating for conversion therapy to be placed in the hands of the Ministry of Health. There are smoking cessation clinics, drug rehab centres etc, that cater to those who choose to indulge in alternative lifestyles–but who also want to later seek help in repairing their lives.

We should have reparative clinics for gays, and to help them along we can subsidise the treatments.

Like someone have said very succinctly: “the only effective way to change a person’s sexual orientation is to have a brain transplant”.

But first make sure the new brain is “wired” heterosexually.

The problem with conversion therapy, apart from its non-existent efficacy, is that it is always carried out in the context of fundamentalist Christianity.

The client has to “feel at home” with ideas of praying, Jesus Christ, God, and the dogma that “sin” etc. The therapy is not held in a clinical setting but in a religious setting, within a Church.

So how do this kind of “therapy” engage a free-thinker, a Muslim or a Buddhist?

So does “conversion” therapy actually serve a DUAL role? That of “converting” someone’s sexual orientation (assuming it’s possible), as well as “converting” that person to a new religion (Christian fundamentalism).

Is that why the population of homosexuals who identify as “ex-gays” are also all Christian fundamentalists as well?

Has anybody met a Buddhist or free-thinker who identifies as an “ex-gay”?

Something for us to think about.

Somebody may argue that NARTH is “secular”, but in reality, NARTH is only as “secular” as Focus on the family is “secular”.

One practical question:
How do I refer a Buddhist patient to CHOICES? Do I need to tell my Buddhist patient that enrolment into the programme implies a “conversion” to another religion as a pre-requisite?

So, in order to make their programmes more accessible to our multi-religious population and to be more “inclusive”, I would suggest to the “therapists” at CHOICES that they offer their therapy outside the Church, in a clinical setting, better still, within the psychiatric department of a hospital, so that I may feel more comfortable referring my patients to them.

In addition, holding such therapy in a proper clinical setting would also allow better documentation of therapeutic outcome and research, which would in turn lend our “conversion” therapists the scientific credibility they badly need.

Like I said, we respect self-determination, so anybody who really hates his sexual orientation should be allowed the option of receiving “conversion therapy”, as long as he is fully aware of the risks involved and the lack of therapeutic efficacy.

Certainly Choice Ministry is a FARCE – they do not change them but rather mentally disarrayed those poor chaps . Why dont they try to fix up those mentally deranged patients at IMH and start exclaiming Eureka !! eurakea !!!..-and be euphoric that they has changed a dog to a hog.

Be compassionate and do not MENTALLY DISARRAY and torture more innocent and nave i ones .

17) conservativevoice on May 24th, 2009 1.47 pm

You must have strike lottery to see FEW of your homosexual friends have changed. There are only two scenarios I can think of your comments:-

1) You fake it
2) Your friends are fake homosexual.

You know best..

A few is perhaps an exaggeration. I have met two real-life cases, which is enough to make me convinced that if a person tries hard enough, change is possible.

As I see it, homosexuals in Singapore are loath to seek treatment for their sexual disorder because:

1) As Morris has pointed out, we have yet to develop a secular conversion therapy programme, preferably with state funding (and I think this is only fair–the govt should think of it as an investment in increasing the population rate, and also in terms of public health–reducing the number of gays will reduce the prevalece of STD’s and HIV

2) Pro-gay propaganda is quick to discredit these treatment methods, claiming that they only affect behaviour but not one’s ‘inner being’, whatever that means

3) Gay people are being increasingly de-stigmatised, as a result of the adavances made by the militant gay agenda. Previously, the oppobrium displayed towards gays put enough pressure on them to convert. These days, the dominance of pro-gay nessages and images has removed some of that ultimately productive so-called ‘discriminatory’ attitudes.

All is not lost though. As long as we keep on being very clear that we disapprove of alternative lifestyles, I believe that eventually more gays will come round to the fact that change is possible, and that it is for their own good.

You can’t change the sexual disposition and preference of a gay person. To me, that’s rubbish.
Science has proven that the ‘gay gene’ exists. Gay is Gay, and what’s wrong with being gay?
I have many friends who are gay, and many turn out to be great parents, as well.
All this is doing is forcing the person to go into ‘the closet’.
Serves no purpose.

While I have no qualms about GLBTs seeking ‘treatment’, since it is their choice how to live their lives at the end of the day, I laugh at the good intentions of the people who still insist that the only good GLBT is an ex-GLBT. Ultimately, the message that they’re still sending is that you deserve every stigma that is thrown at you, because it is for you own good to pressure you to see that you are wrong. It seems that discriminatory attitudes can be ultimately productive too!

Hi conservativevoice,

You may have witnessed two success stories, but you should recognise that, statistically, for every 2 successful conversions, 400 will fail.

The average success rate is approximately 0.5% (an average across several studies, NARTH included).

It should also be noted that this 0.5% was observed directly after the “conversion” therapy, so there’s no knowing if there might have been “relapses” following the therapy.

Dr. Nicolosi, founder of NARTH, one of the most optimistic of all pro-conversion groups, has stated that of all his patients:
a) 1/3 experience “significant improvement”, however, they may engage in same-sex sexual behaviour
b) 1/3 are “cured” insofar that they refrain from same-sex behaviour, but their homosexual desires are not necessarily gone
c) 1/3 do not change

While there is a very slight chance that change is possible, there is a high chance that the patient will suffer psychological and emotional trauma – whether or not the change is successful.

Will you subject yourself to a medical procedure that claims a 0.5% success rate, for a “problem” that is non-life-threatening… knowing that even if you are lucky enough to see “success”, that you may have introduced mental/emotional issues to your overall health?

I’m also very disturbed by your advocacy of discrimination towards LGBT. Discrimination will not make gay people want to seek change. It will only serve to remind them that their society is intolerant, and they may leave the country or drive themselves (and their activities) underground, where it may be even harder to identify (and perhaps, help) them.

As a young adult, I get annoyed whenever children make noise in the theatre. It destroys my experience. I’m pretty sure that I fall into the majority of theatre goers who simply want to enjoy the show in peace and quiet. Should I therefore advocate for the discrimination of children in theatres (higher admission prices for those below 12, etc)?

Take another example: As an adult blessed with functioning limps, should I not show consideration to the 4% of the population who suffer from physical disabilities? I mean, these people take more time to board/alight buses and trains. They also up more room on buses and trains, etc. Should the majority of us (who are not disabled) therefore make those who are disabled take taxis, so that we can ride the bus and trains promptly, without having to go through with any inconveniences?

Many people seem to subscribe to the “Singapore has a conservative majority” argument in substantiating discrimination. Is it really acceptable for the majority groups to force minority groups into submission? What kind of society will this sort of mentality breed? That’s right – Nazism…

Dear CO2,

Why did AWARE argue to have their corrupting in CSE in schools? It’s because they raised the possibility that there might be 2-3% of the students in their target audience who might be gay, and that these people should be accommodated too.

When it comes to conversion therapy, it is that 0.5% that is the reason not to totally junk the programme. As long as conversion therapy shows some results, however minimal, this outlet should be made available for those who wish to change.

I believe the claims of the side-effects are exaggerated. Patients are not, for example, diagnosed with pharmaceuticals. I think many of these testimonies come from resentful and frustrated individuals who blame the system instead of themselves for not being able to repair their sexual brokenness. I think there might be some serious biases (caused by spite, resentment etc) in the accounts of those who have not managed to change. Rather than admit that they are spiritually weak and would much rather succumb to the desires of the flesh, they instead disparage the very system designed to help them.

Respectfully, I would like to point out that your analogies of children and the disabled are a little of the mark. It is in the nature of children to not have a very concrete sense of social etiquette–of course this varies from child to child based on individual disposition and parental discipline/supervision–but by and large we can agree that cognitively the child’s brain is not an adult’s one–which has been better socialised. Similarly, disabled people never *chose* their disabilities and deserve our utmost attention, care and concern.

I wouldn’t want to call this attitude of negative reinforcement ‘discrimination’ actually. I’d call it ‘tough love’. You can protest and say that it’s paternalistic and a violent imposition of other people’s wills. But as much as a gay person would try to suppress me from speaking up, claiming that I have no idea what it is like to be gay, I can also make the valid claim that gay people have little idea what being straight is like, with the societal blessings that come with it, and the fact that one is a full participant in this complex state of being human.

Many gay people I know live in a bubble. They surround themselves with gay company, go for gay clubbing on weekends, and for them this is a portrait of the world. But it is also a very distorted portrait. They insulate themselves from the real attitudes out there–one filled with disfavour and condemnation. Which is why I always believe that the gay websites that cater to Singaporeans carry a mandatory advertisement to conversion therapy hotlines. These will be like the Quit Smoking hotlines that are printed on all cigarette packets. Perhaps there could also be images of people dying of AIDS on these websites, instead of the ubiquitous images of buffed men, which not only cater to the gay community’s predilection for body worship and the superficial, but also project false and misleading images.

@ 27) CO2,

i agree with you. The key here is most of the gays intolerant people who uses the “singapore has a conservative majority” failed to understand that we who do not discriminate GLBTs, do not condone them either. However, we do not go around damning them and making them change.

I just simply do not understand, what is so difficult to understand about being neutral does not equate to agreement. The mentality of “if you’re not with me, you’re against me” is very dangerous. This kind of narrow minded mentality is seeking a louder voice, hence you see comments like conservativevoice and people like Thio & co popping up everywhere.

Anyway, has GLBTs snatched your b/gfs? Shook your marriage life? Took away your big promotion? Why force them to change something that is their choice and has absolutely nothing to do with you? Or is it the fact that they are breathing the same air, taking the same bus/MRT as you THAT revolting? If so, please live in some caves please. GLBTs are as human as any of us are.

Dear Observer (SG-HK),

Allow me if you will. I think your OB markers can further be reduced to one key area that is the underlying problem of these exchanges; and that is: SECULARISM, or the definition of secularism.

In this, I supposed there are a few sub-categories that each one’s thinking can fall into.

a. Complete secularism: meaning, total equality and freedom to choose without hindrance.
b. Moderate secularism: where views of the mainstream majority is prioritised over minorities.
c. Non-secular: where conservative views dictated by one’s religion, race, ethnic and cultural & traditional values are held dear.

In Singapore, one can see that the push is toward the middle-ground (group b). However, the exchanges of views in most forums are battles between both extremes (groups a & c).

In this respect, the GLBT community of group (a) must tone down on their drive toward having their preferred choice before they can be accepted by mainstream society.

Like wise, the traditionalists and conservatives of group (c) must step up to realise that this is a moderate-secular society, where ideologies and practices of others that are not as traditional must be part of fair-game.

Only when each group can see clearly where they stand, can we then move on to harmonising the imbalances which many are now proclaiming.

Hi Conservativevoice,

Focus On The Family (FOTF) is registered as a faith-based charity in the USA while FOTF is registered as secular in Singapore. Nobody seriously believes that FOTF Singapore is actually secular. If this is what you mean by secular, anything can be secular as long as it is registered secular with the authorities and not actually practising secularism. Btw NARTH is a quack pseudo-scientific organisation – no professional medical association actually recognises their work.

To those advocant of LGBT must change:

Why not spend your time to change those ppl that really want to be changed and leave those ppl whom do not want to be changed alone.

Let’s leave and let leave.

For e.g., I can to you and tell u that for your own gd and with all gd intention and it is written in my religious belief that you need to change. And you stop go to church. You leave your parents. You leave your friends. Do i have the right to do that?

This is exactly what the conversativevoice are doing. Even though LGBT may be leaving in a bubble (as you pro-claimed) or in a manner unlike yours, it is their choice. Who are you to decide for them? Have they committed something criminal? (pls do not quote 377A. It is not enforced and there because of you people). Why must you force ppl to go to therapy? There are many ppl who are happy to be who they are. As many have said, i am who i am . Stop harressing them and stop imposing your belief on the innocents. This is evil to the core. It is unacceptable. You are not asking them to just change orientation. You are demanding them to change their entire life based on what they kn and it is based on what you think.

I cannot see any rationale reason behind this. This is barbaric the core.

I agree with the premise of this series that homosexuals do not need change – in fact I would go as far as encouraging homosexuals not to change even if they are considering it. (It’s not unlike left-handedness where change is just not necessary.)

However, I don’t think Leslie Lung who is an “ex-transexual” should link his personal experiences with gay issues. The fact is that transgenderism is an identity regardless of whether one had the op. And transgenderism has little to do with homosexuality.

So when the author writes: “While he still displays residues of his feminine behaviour, he no longer struggles with same-sex attraction so much, he claims. And when it comes back, he is able to let it pass most of the time, ” it really isn’t same-sex attraction since Lung identifies as being a woman psychologically. If Lung feels like she’s a woman, then being attracted to men would just make her heterosexual – not homosexual.

I hope Terence and the editors consider this point.

Just a thought: The ‘B’ should be taken out of the LGBT community. They are having the best of both worlds – being Bi-Sexual.

Hi Mint,

yes when writing the article, I was aware of this difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. However, as I wasn’t able to find another ex-gay, I had to make do with Mr Lung.

Nonetheless, there are some similarities. Even for Mr Lung, he has to suppress his desire for men, and learn to accept a different gender identity. In this drive towards chastity, it is similar.

In a sense, both ex-gay and ex-transsexual have to deny their desires. Hope that clears up the issue.

CO2,

Your comment is more than 500-words long. Thus, it is disallowed.

Please keep your comments to within 500 words, maximum.

Thanks.

Conservativevoice, your ‘tough love’ argument is equivalent to throwing stones at gay people and telling them that the stone throwing would stop when they stop being gay.

Dear Terence,

“yes when writing the article, I was aware of this difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. However, as I wasn’t able to find another ex-gay, I had to make do with Mr Lung. ”

By your admission to the above quote, you have indeed put your credibility on your understanding on this issue, more so your miss-conception of the definition of “Gay” or “Homosexuality”. If you do another research (really talk to people who knows the definition of gay ~ example you could always approach Alex Au) you will realize that Leslie Lung the subject mentioned does not qualify to be classified as “Gay” or “Homosexual”, then your work presented is only valid if you re-title it “Change you can believe ~ A Ex-Transsexual Story”. I would seriously urge you to do just that to regain your credibility. It is meaningless for the remaining parts to be published under the same title (because it is deceiving, tangerines are not oranges although they belong to the citrus fruit family)

Hmm. I feel compelled to share the experience of a friend. His experience is just the reverse. He managed to make 2 straight men go over to the dark side. One is married, and the other one isnt. And the experience does not exactly turn those guys gay but it seems has opened them to be very open to experimentation and they are now able to enjoy sexual companionship regardless of whatever gender the partner is. I guess that’s somewhat the reverse of Choices. Both can still relate to women except that by pure choice they dont want to have it with women because sexual relations with women comes attached with commitments which they are apparently not prepared to undertake. SO in the meantime, my friend becomes their occassional girlfriend substitute. I think it is just biological and mind over (gender) matter.

28) conservativevoice on May 25th, 2009 12.25 pm

I would think that many of the ‘habits’ of gay people are created by people …. like you. Why would they stay in their bubble if the society accepts them as they are? In a hostile environment, do you not seek that which is more familiar? Those that do not judge you with a ‘look’?

What is natural or unnatural can be quite deceptive sometimes.

In real life, we encounter married women who chose to divorce their husbands and left their kids behind in order to be able to live together with their lesbian girlfriends. Similarly, we also encounter many married men with family who have secret sexual relationships with their boyfriends or visit the sauna for gay sex.

So is bisexual men or women natural or unnatural ?

Mother Nature can be quite ambiguous sometimes.

Dear Observer,

I have made pains to explain the difference between transsexuals and gays in Part One. As you will see in the remaining parts, most of my article features gays, not transsexuals. However, we can draw parallel in both types, since Choices treats them as one and the same. Also, just as the cause of homosexuality is ambiguous, so is the cause of transgenderism.

I will admit that perhaps my subtitle may be slightly misleading, and I will deliberate on that. Thanks for pointing that out.

Do not be mistaken that I do not understand the difference though, I do, and I have expressed that already.

As for your suggesting of renaming it an “ex-transsexual’s story”, it is not quite accurate as well. Perhaps “LGBT” will be a better term.

Just to echo Alan Wong on 41).

I think most people see things as black or white, gay or straight and seem to have forgote about the grey, the bisexuals.

I suspect a good number of the population are actually bisexual – people who are attracted to both the same and oppiste sex. And I suspect those who believe that homosexual inclination can be converted or change are really bisexual themselves – they are fully aware of their sexual desires for the same sex and have consciously refrained from engaging in homosexual activity, hence the claim that being homosexual is a choice because they are speaking from personal experience.

That’s why the totally straight or gay are perplexed why would someone said sexuality is a choice.

Conservativevoice,

it seems that you are the lone person here defending your camp. Nonetheless, I congratulate your bravery and level-headedness in debating this issue,despite the obvious stance of most of the readers here.

Perhaps just to put forth a little of my views, because I want to refrain from doing so as much as possible until I release all four parts, I just want to highlight that it is true that not many gays even want to change, perhaps this amounts to the low success rate of conversion therapy.

Many are in fact quite content with their gay lifestyle, and see no reason to change. A large proportion sees it as normal. The people whom you encounter and know to have changed might perhaps be highly religious, thus they have a strong motivation to want to change. Am I correct to say that?

Yes, who are we to claim that GLBTs lead a less than full life? It is being presumptious to even try to tell them that their lives aren’t as full, when viewed through our own colored lens.

Observer,

Contrary to what you say, I do not misunderstand the issue. In Part One, I made the distinction between homosexuality and transgenderism. I use Mr Lung’s example because there are similarities between both — in that both are suppressing their desires in ways some might deem unnatural.

Nonetheless, I accept your point that my subtitle might be a little bit misleading. But as you will see in my later parts, most of my article are about gays. I will look into the subtitle.

Thanks for your feedback.

Science has proven that the ‘gay gene’ exists. Gay is Gay, and what’s wrong with being gay?
————————————————————————————–

As far as I know, we have not found a “gay” gene. And we never will. Don’t waste time looking for it.

But wait, the non-existence of a “gay” gene does not imply that homosexuality is a kind of “acquired lifestyle”. That is a straw-man argument.

Does a “genius” gene exist? Does a “musical talent” gene exist? Does a “physical beauty” gene exist? Does a “left-handedness” gene exist? Does a “straight” gene exist? Does a “tallness” gene exist? Does a “short-sightedness” gene exist?

The gay gene is a myth.

Just to add, the “gay gene” is a heterosexist idea. Heterosexism is deeply ingrained in all of us.

We are all strongly conditioned to be heterosexist, so much so that we have to consciously resist it.

For instance, people mainly ask “what causes homosexuality”?

Why aren’t we also interested in knowing what causes heterosexuality?

I just want to highlight that it is true that not many gays even want to change, perhaps this amounts to the low success rate of conversion therapy.
————————————————————————————————-

Conversion therapy has “low” success rates because it is resting on many dubious assumptions.

We have neither identified the factors which shape our sexual orientation nor elucidated the exact mechisms of their complex interactions.

How do we seek to manipulate/change something whose workings we do not even as yet fully understand?

Dear Terence,

Thanks for responding. I accept your explanation on the “suppressed desire” view point albeit to me this expression is not limited to the subject issues. Nonetheless, it is always nice to hear a different perspective on controversial issues where it is still treated as taboo subject in this modern metropolis and in the 21st century.

I certainly hope a fair view is presented as this society already has so much clouded issues than concerned citizenry hope to find the balanced in our almost suffocating living space. I simply cannot comprehend a nation with such high literacy rate yet we see some very irrational (to the degree of “hate”) thoughts and views expressed and the lack of compassions towards her fellow citizenry. It is sad indeed for a nation that had weathered many adverse situations before we get to where we are today. To my fellow Singaporeans, I have this to say: the world has not change, we did.

I certainly wish people can take a deep breath and step back each time before inking their comment and spare a thought to the recipient they are targeting and ask: “would I want people to reciprocate the treatment unto me?” Exercise a little tolerance and compassion towards our fellow human beings will make this troubled world a better place for all of us who call this nation and planet earth our home.

Sincerely,

Observer (SG-HK)

Can you prove that there’s a ’stupidity gene’? No? Then you can’t say people are born stupid, you are stupid simply because you choose to adopt a ’stupid’ lifestyle!

The GLBT will tell you that being gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender is not a lifestlye, something he/she has freely chosen for himself/herself. It is not a fad nor is it a trend like the magazine covers you see from time to time where, according to the trend of the season, the skinny look, or the curvy look, or the anorexic look or whatever look, is the look of the season to adopt.

I think most of the conservatives hold this perception that GLBT is a lifestyle choice, which is not. Yes, there are some who might have shown us that they can change – but these are not the real McCoys, these are misguided ones (in the GLBT context), who had believed they were gay when they are actually not, and were able to discover later in life that they have a real attraction toward the opposite sex and not the same sex. So they ‘change’ back to who they originally were.

In case any of you think what I have just shared sounded out of this world and illogical, let me tell you that I am speaking about my own experience. I was in an industry where interactions with the GLBT community was a daily routine. This happened at a time when I was a very young man, still very much searching for my own sexual identity, being made difficult with the company I kept, which was 50% gay as much as it was mainstream. I wore makeups, eyeliners and flashy clothes ( no dresses though – whew!) etc. and experimented with loads of other gay norms – (except sexual activities) – even though I was never attracted to any of them.

My awakening came when I met the girl of my dream. The usual butterflies in the stomach, the lovery-dovey eyes and light-hearted feelings of love allowed me to discover myself for who I really was – a normal heterosexual guy. What I had went through was just a fad, very much influenced by the fashion and entertainment scenes of that time. Gay groups were so rampant and gay dressings were at its peak. I was part of a young society influenced by it – nothing more.

Imagine if I was made to believe that all these were normal and to be told that I was actually gay when I am not. My life could potentially be different from what it is today – a happily married heterosexual with a loving and beautiful family.

25) MC Harding on May 25th, 2009 3.32 am
You can’t change the sexual disposition and preference of a gay person. To me, that’s rubbish.
Science has proven that the ‘gay gene’ exists. Gay is Gay, and what’s wrong with being gay?

So the ‘gay gene’ justifies the behaviour of the GLBT?

What about those who like to have sex with both male and female? I suppose science has also proven that the ‘bisexual gene’ exists.

The Homosexual Issue had brought many experts into the Discussions, except those qualified sexuality professionals in IMH and other hospitals.

The average Singaporean is hardly bother with others sexuality except to those who see a potential mate that suits his or her taste. Homosexual was not an issue hitherto until it is made into a National Issue by the Homosexuals to have Laws governing it repealed.

Many selectively choose to discuss homosexuality by itself and stubbornly, erratically refuse to see it as an anomaly similar to other defects such as murderer, paedophile, necrophilia, sadist, thief etc. They accept the logic that any predisposed nature(natural, instinctive behaviours) of beings should not be subjected to discipline, enlightenment, punishment and correction, but, should instead be allowed to let them be, proliferate, supported and it seems; promoted(as in a rally/lobby/campaign). How do we explain for the existences Sciences, Laws and Orders, traditional virtue and values, tribal tradition and system etc in the Human World ? Are these not formulated to correct the unusual, why are conjoined twins seperated ? Are they not born naturally in that way ? Why do we slaughter other animals for food ? Are they not born to live and die naturally ?

Lastly, allow me to admit myself that i am sick, i wish and want to stop surfing the Internet, unfortunately, i seem to be addicted. Can some kind souls offer me some advice here. How i wish this is the last time i look at the computer, though i know there is absolutely nothing wrong with me getting knowledges and educated in Cyberworld. In fact i should be encouraged if not for the addiction.

I thank You all for reading.

patriot

just a short comment, i believe not all GLBTs are born that GLBT. i know of friends who were heteros, but after jaded relationships with the opposite gender, became a GLBT.

i just wish that all those hardcore conservatives can stop trying to change GLBT, especially those born GLBTs, and those “convert” GLBTs, it is their choice. Don’t force your ideology down others’ throats.

and no, science has NOT proven a gay gene, although there’re inferences between the animal kingdom and homo sapiens that homosexuality MAY be gene linked. that said, IF, you think that a 86% similarity between mouse and homo sapiens is not enough to convince you that the above mentioned inferences are worth considering, then do NOT try to convince others about your 0.5% success rate of the so-called conversion therapy of GLBTs to heteros.

When young, we need to be taught of “Values”.
“Values” determine “Actions”, not the other way round.
AWARE’s CSE has teaches mostly about “Actions”, not much on values.

Dear Patriot,

Ref: Para 3 of your comment.

Ouch!!! This is some mean comments you are posting my friend. It is rare and disappointing for me to see a man regarded as learned (at least in my personal perspective reading your past comments on other societal issues in this site) with compassion and wisdom to equate this controversial subject matter as anomaly issue with thugs, thieves, murderers and what not. What an unfounded sweeping statement you have just made.

Please spare a thought, these people are humans of the same genetic made up as we are and they have parents too like anyone of us. How do you think if parents, siblings or relatives of this group of “ignorant public stigmatized” people read your comments, how hurting can that be? Moreover, I do not think the GLBT community had commission Terence to write this four part series to seek general public acceptance. It is merely the perspective of the Author wanting to instigate viewers’ response on this subject matter and does not represent the views of the GLBT community.

IMHO, regardless of any group, an inclusive matured society should see no barrier or boundaries for people wanting to have equal RIGHTS to live their own life. Don’t you and all concerned citizenry who are trying hard to lobby for public support and government attention for our less fortunate, less well-off, deprived citizenry as well as those who had lost their jobs to FT and what not? In that same yardstick of branding you used, they also deserved to be at their dire state? Or you apply a different standard of measure like those Elitist uses? Which is which now?

Truly my friend, there is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action and the greatest ignorance is to reject something you know nothing about. “Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance”, this is a quote from the very teacher many of us had read about ~ Confucius.

Sincerely,

Observer (SG-HK)

Terence,

You said : “yes when writing the article, I was aware of this difference between transsexuals and homosexuals. However, as I wasn’t able to find another ex-gay, I had to make do with Mr Lung.”

What I’m trying to say is not Mr Lung is not ex-gay, no matter how similar ex-gays and ex-transexuals seem to you. Mr Lung can have his sex change and be a heterosexual woman and be attracted to men all ’she’ wants, problems solved. ‘She’ can even go on and legally marry a man in Singapore. Transgenderism is recognised by most religions including Muslim clerics in so-called fundamentalist Iran (but homosexuality still carries the death penalty), but that’s another story altogether.

“As for your suggesting of renaming it an “ex-transsexual’s story”, it is not quite accurate as well. Perhaps “LGBT” will be a better term.”

There’s really no such thing as ex-LGBT.

I think what myself and Observer are trying to point out is that at no time should Leslie Lung be presented as an ex-gay, and speak as an ‘authority’ about gays and/or ex-gays by drawing on his personal experiences. There’s a ’solution’ to his ‘problem’ but none exists for gays.

Correction: What I’m trying to say is that Mr Lung is not ex-gay, no matter how similar ex-gays and ex-transexuals seem to you.

Dear Observer(SG-HK):

Hi Sir, it’s been sometime since we last communicated, wish You are in your best in health and everything.

Youare absolutely right, i am a son, a sibling, a parent, grandparent and an uncle to many. I am brought up with discipline albeit my parents were not educated at all in any school. Underwent military/enforcement trainings in the Discipline Forces and was many years in the service industry. Was in the working world at a young age.

Those that i grow up and work with comprised of people of different upbringings, characters, races, religions and education etc. Since we are on the subject of sexuality, may i just say that like anyone else, i have friends even buddies of various hue and shade. We even teased one another over unusual or special taste of some of us. As such having live almost six decades with different type of people, including talking to those soliciting business at Changi Village and elsewhere, i have always been please of the way we tolerate and live in peace with each other.

Now, suddenly, a small group of people are crying foul over been discriminated. I have posted that even the Government of the Day and no less the Prime Minister himself have came out to declare that activity between members of the same gender are private affairs and no targetted for law enforcement. Before this, Goh Chok Tong had declared that homosexuals are acceptable in Civil Services. After all these relaxation in Laws, i would have thought that tolerant level of both the Authority and the GLBT would have notched up, but alas it was not to be. Instead all tolerance, concession and understanding become more contentious and become a National Issue.

There is a need to understand that for thousands of years and for thousand more to come, the Issue of sexuality will remain and is best left to be dealt with as it has been done in the past. It is very complex as i have posted in comments before if You have read. Sex is link to all marriages and all marriages are sanctified, it is way beyond just pleasure and satisfaction, happiness and blissfullness are the hall mark of marriages. And happiness, blissfullness need fidelity not just of the mind, the body, the physical acts need to act in tandem.

The Chinese saying that when ones’ stomach is filled, vice occupies the mind and vice(sex) is the greatest sin of all evils(Hanyu: Wan erh yin wei shou). I think it is only fair to suggest that reading up on the subject of sexual variation would be the best call that i can made. I shall make this my last post in TOC on the Subject and hope that if i had offended or hurt anyone, please be magnanimous, i ask for your forgiveness.

Yours Sincerely: patriot

Mint,

I am aware of the differences. But Choices doesn’t distinguish them, instead subjecting them under the same classification. Sy Rogers, an “ex-transsexual” himself, was instrumental in the starting of Choices programme.

The issue here is not comparing Mr Lung with the others. That is not what I’m aiming to do, because it’s like comparing apples with oranges. Rather, it is highlighting the practice of reparative therapy, and whether it purports to work like it claimed to be.

At no time have I intended to portray Mr Lung as an “ex-gay”. In the article, Mr Lung calls himself an ex-transsexual, and I thought this was clear enough. However, I must apologise if you have been mislead to think otherwise.

Patriot
You said:
‘And happiness, blissfullness need fidelity not just of the mind, the body, the physical acts need to act in tandem.’

this is where your ignorance surfaced. i kn of many GLBT couples that support and pull through with one another through thick and thin. It is not just sex.

I know of many same sex couples that have been together for years and years. And i kn of opp sex married couple that divorce within a yr of marriage.

How relationship turns out really depends on the individual and not the orientation.

Yes, u hv been around for 6 decades. But we tend to hang out with ppl of our kind – birds of the feather flock together. I will not profess I kn all. But at least we need to keep and open mind. And learn from one another before we conclude.

This is what many here asked for.

Dear Patriot,

Thanks for your well wishes and your candid response. I had to admit that I am not as well read as you are. When I decided to participate in any public discourse regardless of issues, I try to focus on the views expressed with as much rational thinking as my tiring senile brain can accommodate. I am also please to say that with your response, you have not lost a bid of wisdom in my eyes.

Yes indeed, “..all marriages are sanctified, it is way beyond just pleasure and satisfaction, happiness and blissfullness are the hall mark of marriages. “, I absolutely agreed with you on this and that faithful pledge to care for each other till death do us part should be upkeep, unfortunately, to some this may change in time. The “funny” thing though, this sanctity also applies to the group of people mentioned in this series of articles (i.e. GLBT group). I say this because of my many categories of friends (just like you are), I do have many friends whom I knew happened to belong to this group and are in very healthy relationship with their partners for decades and other than they are gay couples, it is no difference (to some degree even more loving) than many heterosexual couples that I knew for years. My friend, I shall not take the liberty to further bore you with this.

Anyway, my view points had been made and I only wish to ask fellow citizenry to exercise a little tolerance and be a little more accommodating. In any community group (I do not know whether this is the right definition), there will always be people with different values and personalities. Some are extra-ordinary loud and want to be heard and am not afraid to tell it to the world while others are more mundane (no insults intended). But beneath all that, there are always some good in us humans regardless (at least, I personally would like to view it this way before being accused of speaking on behalf of others).

We only live once and this world is a beautiful place if we only open up and take the trouble to understand each other better, regardless of religious believes, sexual orientation, society status and well being. I do not articulate well with my limited vocab (goosh I really misses school, should have listened to my mom) but I think enough had been said and its time for me to take a haitus.

Patriot sir, I thank you for your patience, understanding and as always, your contributions to this site are always appreciated. My well wishes and warmest regards to you and your family. Cheers!

Sincerely,

Observer (SG-HK)

just a short comment, i believe not all GLBTs are born that GLBT. i know of friends who were heteros, but after jaded relationships with the opposite gender, became a GLBT.

————————————————————————————————–

This kind of scenario is possible only with bisexuals, i.e. people who have innate potential to respond to both homo-erotic and hetero-erotic stimuli.

this is where your ignorance surfaced. i kn of many GLBT couples that support and pull through with one another through thick and thin. It is not just sex.

I know of many same sex couples that have been together for years and years. And i kn of opp sex married couple that divorce within a yr of marriage.

How relationship turns out really depends on the individual and not the orientation.

______________________________________________________

You’ve made an important point which needs to be emphasized over and over again.

Here is a good instance of heterosexist thinking.

We often instinctively “santify” and beautify heterosexual relationships, portraying them in terms of love, sacrifice, fidelity, romance, even “spirituality” and “godliness”.

But we reduce homosexual relationships to “lust” and “anal sex”.

We have to recognize that all carnal relationships have sex as a significant component, but there are also other dimensions (e.g. the emotional, affective, even “spiritual” aspects) as well.

Multi-dimensionality applies to both heterosexual as well as homosexual relationships.

It may shock some of us to know that gays and lesbians do fall madly, helplessly and deeply in love like the rest of mankind.

Their stories of love in the midst of social resistance and hardship – “against all odds” – are no less touching than ours, perhaps even more so, since “forbidden” love especially those with an element of “tragic” are often the most inspiring in classic love stories, such as Romeo and Juliet, and in Brokeback Mountain.

@ Morris,

thanks for pointing it out. my knowledge of GLBTs is very limited, but i certainly believe they should not be discriminated.

“But we reduce homosexual relationships to “lust” and “anal sex”.” — this is an unfortunate stereotype. most supposedly conservative people just refuse to acknowledge that it often is more than lust and *insert* sex in any serious relationships between two people, regardless of the gender.

For evidence that gays can change, see:
http://www.peoplecanchange.com/
and http://people-can-change.blogspot.com/