Leong Sze Hian
One out of every seven HDB flat owners have problems paying their mortgage loans. This seems to be what the statistics have revealed. Last year, the HDB visited 60,000 flats which had problems paying their loans and gave financial counseling to 35,000 households.
This is 14 per cent of the estimated 420,000 HDB loan mortgages – or one in seven.
As of October last year, 33,000 HDB loans were in arrears over three months. This is about eight per cent of the total number who took HDB loans.
In both instances, the numbers are a cause for concern, especially at this time when Singaporeans are facing job insecurity and spiraling costs.
The number of flats which have been repossessed or surrendered to the HDB because of non-payment of mortgage loans is another worry.
According to a Berita Harian report, 1,350 HDB flats were surrendered to the HDB in the last four years.
In February 2007, Parliament heard that 360 flat owners had voluntarily surrendered their flats from 2002 to 2006.
This means that the average number of flats surrendered per annum has increased from 72 (2002 to 2006) to 318 (2005 to March 2009).
This is an increase of about 342 per cent, or about one flat a day now.
This figure, however, does not include HDB flats on bank loans which are reportedly being foreclosed at about 60 a month. It also does not include those in arrears who have sold their flats in the open market.
HDB profiteering from flat owners’ misery?
When the HDB sends a notice of Compulsory Acquisition to flat owners, they are only given one month to vacate their flats, and only 90 per cent of the flat’s valuation is used to offset the loan arrears.
It is hard enough to lose one’s home. Why does the HDB still want to make a profit of 10 per cent of the valuation?
Why not give them a bit more time to find alternative accommodation?
As a public housing authority with the mission to provide affordable housing for Singaporeans, is the HDB not in a sense, in breach of its fiduciary duty, in this arbitrary practice of eating up 10 per cent of the valuation?
Are there any public housing authorities in the world that takes an additional 10 per cent profit on foreclosure?
Parliamentarians may like to raise this issue with a view to refunding the “eaten up” valuation to all past foreclosed flat owners.
What is the view of bodies like the Law Society of Singapore in this regard?
In view of the above statistics, and with unemployment at a 5-year high of 4.8 per cent, 95,600 unemployed locals, and the record GDP contraction of 19.7 per cent in the first quarter, I would like to suggest that the HDB temporarily freeze asking those in arrears to surrender their flats.
After all, as long as HDB flats appreciate at an average annual rate of more than the HDB concessionary loan rate of 2.6 per cent, every HDB flat may eventually be worth more than the outstanding loan and arrears, particularly when the current 13-year property bear market turns around.
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51) agongkia
///My flat was fully paid some years back as my late father had bought it many years ago due to resettlement .But my concern is where my descendents will stay when the flat reach 99 years?///
Your father worked hard to leave this flat for you. He started with a hut, as you said. He has with his lifelong effort elevated the quality of life of his decendant. You may want to consider doing likewise, There are quite a few decades to go before it happens.Just worrying where your descendents will stay when the flat reach 99 years is not too productive.
52) agongkia
You mentioned your dad left you a flat. Now you are homeless?
54)Kopitiamapek
“There are quite a few decades to go before it happen”
I like to see far ahead,so I have my concern for our future generation.
I said” would be homeless”, not homeless.A person may have a flat but can be made homeless for many reason,but I am not here to discuss it.You must have heard how it can happen at your kopitiam trip.
TOC is concern about profiteering and not on how a person can be made homeless.,so i ensure the ship to Malacca is not going to Antartica.
As I see you as someone who” knows “so much on properties here and is eager to see whether you can help to recommend your list of 3 room available and affordable flat to those who may be interested or who may need help.Perhaps you only have the list for 4-5 room ,condo and exec.flat.
If you do not have the list for 3 room at this time ,I would understand,You are not obligated to provide.
I thank you for the time with me.
55) agongkia
TOC is concern about profiteering wrt “only 90 per cent of the flat’s valuation is used to offset the loan arrears”
” how a person can be made homeless” was brought up in your post
///I like to see far ahead,so I have my concern for our future generation.///
I repeat: Your father worked hard to leave this flat for you. He started with a hut, as you said. He has with his lifelong effort elevated the quality of life of his decendant. You may want to consider doing likewise,
///As I see you as someone who” knows “so much on properties here ///
uncalled for jibe
go to ura and hdb websites
all caveat prices are available there
#33) Alan Wong
‘Otherwise it is just another subsidy on paper only.’
………………………………………………….
You are right. LKY also admitted in parliament many years ago that the government took land from landowners at peanut prices to build HDB flats. 3-room flats at Toa Payoh were sold at $7,800 during the 70s. Now they can be re-sold at about $250,000. PAP is wiser now. Why let the people benefit from cheaper flats when the government can keep the profits. As a result HDB flats are now priced much higher than the construction cost. People can be easily controlled when they don’t have too much surplus money.
This is the reason why the election deposit is raised. Without surplus money there will be less contests in GE especially for the GRCs.
wherever MBT goes life can never be easy. he is a talent still secure a seat after losing to CST
Correct me if i am wrong.
I thought that HDB, a Singapore Public Housing concern, cannot reposses the flats in any circumstance.
The mission of HBD is to ensure that Singaporean families have a roof over their head, to afford shelter to the children, the most vulnerable members of the family in times of hardship, e.g. when the sole breadwiner lose his/her job.
?
All this while i have this “mission” impression of the HDB…
Will someone enlighten on some of the existing or updated regulations, thank you.
There are no beggar in Singapore and there shall be no homeless citizen.
If Singaporean ever become homeless, roof will be provided.
NO ONE WILL BE LEFT BEHIND, BE IT EDUCATION, SHELTER OR MEDICAL TREATMENT. WE HAVE HEARD THIS PROMISE MADE MANY, MANY TIMES OVER MANY, MANY YEARS.
SO, BE ASSURE THE LEADERS WILL NEVER LET SINGAPOREANS DOWN !!!
59) radlife66
///The mission of HBD is to ensure that Singaporean families have a roof over their head///
That should be the right thing to do,
Which is the reason I poed these question in my earlier post, which I hope the author of the good article can reply.
///4) KopitiamApek
It would be useful to have these additional,background info:
1.Income of flat owners who surrendered their flats.
2.Size of flats surrendered.
3.Are the owners of the surrendered flat first time HDB owners, or have they sold their first flat and are now surrendering their 2nd (or subsequent) flats.///
During the period in the not too distant past, many HDB flat owners upgraded to bigger flats, sold their old flats, and made a bundle. More followed and made money as well. The famed “bigger fool theory” at work, that there is always a bigger fool out there to buy at a higher price that you paid for. But just the the bubble tea biz bubble, and like all bubbles, they burst. When it happened, many in the hope to also cash in on this gain, got stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea when they already committed to an new flat and found that the old flat was not worth that much any more, not enough to finance the new bigger flat.
Q3 above is to have an idea how many of those in arrears fall into that category.
59) radlife66 on May 31st, 2009 6.14 pm
Correct me if i am wrong.
I thought that HDB, a Singapore Public Housing concern, cannot reposses the flats in any circumstance.
Read this Parliament Report:
http://www.parliament.gov.sg/parlweb/get_highlighted_content.jsp?docID=439122&hlLevel=Terms&links=HDB,REPOSSESS&hlWords=%20hdb%20repossess%20&hlTitle=&queryOption=1&ref=http://www.parliament.gov.sg:80/reports/public/hansard/title/20090206/20090206_S0003_T0006.html#1
” Second, the availability of HDB rental flats. My experience in the recent Meet-the-People Sessions is that more Singaporeans are having their flats compulsorily repossessed because of their personal financial difficulties. I am also seeing more residents who are having to voluntarily sell their flats to enable them to settle their debts. These ex-home owners will need to obtain alternative housing and often look to rent flats from the HDB after they have moved out of their old flats. However, there is currently a 13-month debarment period from the time of sale within which they will be ineligible to obtain a rental flat from the HDB. Does MND anticipate that the current supply of HDB rental flats will have to be increased to cope for greater demand? And would MND consider amending the HDB rental flat eligibility criteria and the debarment period for those who have to sell their flats because of financial difficulty?”
It is usually phased nicely as “returned” due to “problems meeting payments.
http://www.salary.sg/2009/1350-hdb-flats-returned-since-2005/
“agongkia”
Provided singapore will still be here by the time that 99 years lease is up….
our pap only know how to bleed our people over land but too afraid to stand up to outside bullies, just refer the msia railway station & indo’s ban on our sand deal for land reclaims
Valuation for HDB flats are higher so that HDB can sell new flats at higher value based on market value subsidy.
When it takes back the flats, they are taken back at real value which is 10% below value. Head, HDB wins. Tail, HDB also wins.
Is it true that any shopping complex or cinemas will come soon in fernvale area?
31) KopitiamApek on May 31st, 2009 1.12 am
“By 1977 HDB flats were no longer a new concept. The first HDB was built in 1960″
It’s a new concept because my parents and my grandparents were very uncertain at that time of whether to move out from their kampongs and live in HDB flats. What floor to choose, who their neighbours are. When you live in kampongs and had to change your way of life into living in flats, it’s definitely a new concept. You may ask your parents or grandparents were it a new concept to them at that time.
===========================================================
“1977 was a period of super peak demand for HDB flats in all it’s building programmes ever”
You need to show the facts regarding this point you have made. Super peak demand for HDB flats?
Super peak demand means rising prices according to economics 101. A simple scenario is to compare the increase in prices in 1977 and of now or in recent years.
31) KopitiamApek on May 31st, 2009 1.12 am
To add further, in the 70s, HDB build their flats first, then people go into the new flats, take a look at it and choose if they like it. If they don’t like it, they can move on to the next unit. Those were the times.
Now, Singaporeans pay for flats and start the mortgage payments when the flats is not even built. You see the difference? Its a smart move in terms of making more money but not in terms of making affordable housing for Singaporeans.
66) rachel
Hi Rachel,
From URA’s 2008 Master Plan, the site of the previous Seletar Market is earmarked for a neighbourhood centre. Whether any shopping complex or cinemas will come soon on that site depend really on how fast the flats take up rate in the area, when HDB will realease the site for tender and if private developers are keen in taking up such development.
Hope that helps.
66) rachel
Hi Rachel,
http://www.ura.gov.sg/mp08/map.jsf?goToRegion=SIN
http://www.map.gov.sg/StreetMap/
67) Ghim Moh resident
You are correct from your perspective. ie it is a ew concept for residences like yourself moving into flats from kampongs.
But where I am coming from is that HDB flats building prog started from 1960. The super peak at 1977 was not in terms of pricing level but was based on the numbers of flats built in each of HDB’s 5 years building programme, 1977 was in the 5 year programme whereby the most flats were built in the entire history of HDB.
Thanks for the info Apek.
so any guess if it is worth to buy an hdb in fernvale road ?
hope the price wont go down in future !
government wants us to die…
Why did HDB tear down Seletar market and leave the land empty for so many years? Why do our elites like to tear down places and leave it empty?
I remember the food prices in the market there used to be quite cheap. Plus the market was rebuilt after a fire and then shortly after they tore it down for the land to go waste.
Isn’t this a blatant waste of resources by our elites?
HDB prices are high to keep singaporeans asset rich and cash poor so they cannot migrate….die die must stay in singapore….same with car prices etc etc…
Singaporeans must all learn to spend within their means.
Try not to over borrow i.e. more than half of the HDB sales price. Try to also take a ten year loan if possible and pay off the loan asap so as not to be in debts for too long.
If the property you owned has a 30-40% price increase, try to sell the property and cash off the profit. Consider renting if possible as history has shown that SIngapore’s property prices once peaked will slide down inevitably e.g. 1997 and 2007.
Those who bought properties in the early 1990s all make at least 300-400% in profit if they cashed out now. A property I owned in 1992 was sold off for a 400% profit margin in 1997 and after that property prices was in a cocoon for 9 years before rebound in 2007.
Too many people are too sentimental when it comes to cashing off their property. They rather continue to owe the HDB money than cashing off and then buying back another one when prices slide without taking out any big loan.
Now I buy resale property without taking a cent of loan due to the fact that we buy a property base on how much we have in our CPF account. We feel safe and secure knowing that even if we are out of work we still have a roof over our head.
Of course, not all can do this especially the younger couples. Nevertheless, this should be the aim of the people here if we dont want to keep on paying mortgages at age 65. We should all aim to stay debt free at a younger age before we all reture comfortably.
It is so true that SIngaporeans all need comprehensive financial planning guidance and prudent spending habits.
How come cannot read any comments? Or there is no comments yet?
many of the younger generation of S’poreans will likely work all their life for a roof over their heads. wih not much more for starting a family let alone retire with a peace of mind with an ever increasing cost of living.
born into a lifelong (HDB) debt?
I guess the vast majority of Sporean are trying to go with the system.. understand the property cycles and make the best of it.. egs.. buy low sell high.. cash out… rent instead of buy.. look for the cycles.. etc etc etc.. this is a mindset of how to survive the relentless rise in our daily COST of living… pls note that this is not the same as rise in our STANDARD of living.. if we continue as we have.. even though YOU are doing OK.. ie ..pay bills .. little debt.. etc.. it will eventually catch up.. if not to YOU .. then it will catch up with the following generations..
this exercise in ASSet inflation only steals from our future wealth or the wealth of our children.. to give to the people who want it NOW… for whatever purpose they may offer ..eg.. “economic growth”.. “Asset rich”..
The sad truth is that should Singaporeans understand this situation and hence the required “medicine” to take.. they will most likely not have the guts to do it.. needless to say the political party will not offer it.. ..
So… I guess we leave to our children a legacy of ever increasing DEBT………..
………….. DOES ANYONE HAVE A BETTER PLAN ……….. ?????????? ………
Should we just give up fighting for a better life….
Should we give up fighting for our kids….
or do we just take the HEALTH minister’s approach to problems (which, if you havent noticed by now.. is.. its out of our hands.. we can’t stop it.. it is bound to happen) or maybe its just a penang approach … even before the fight get started..
50) KopitiamApek ,
Thanks for the elaborate footwork ! Sorry, correction, I should have mentioned comparison of HDB prices @ Marine Parade vs Condo prices elsewhere.
As from your tabulation, one can obviously see that with HDB prices hovering around $700K @ Marine Parade, one can certainly get a condo elsewhere for that same price, of coz sans the sea view, proximity to ECP/airport etc etc. Thus, the issue of allowing market forces to dictate the HDB prices should be re-examined. Do we aspire a situation whereby HDB prices are drummed up to a level beyond the reach of the newly weds ?
“During the period in the not too distant past, many HDB flat owners upgraded to bigger flats, sold their old flats, and made a bundle. More followed and made money as well.”
Please help to correct any conception, if need to. I thought for the same-no.-of-room titleship, flats are getting smaller while prices are going up.
The hit is on the new home young owners and not on those people buying in the 70s, 80s & 90s who happened to enjoy the distortion allowed by the good demand of housing because of increasing no. of people allowed into this free country and the controlled pace of both private and hdb properties being built.
Do you think that they are still practising this modus-operandi ? How did this 6-million population target come about ?
As for old flat upgraded to new flats, I thought I have seem flats being torned down way before the so-called 99-year lease period while ‘new better flats’ are being offered for relocation at ???? price.
Assuming that loopholes are now being nicely capped to prevent opportunistic buy-low-new-flat-and-sell-high-at-market-price, do you think it is quite high now to become pretty tough for new home buyers who could not turn back the clock to a period as described by you to really make a good bundle. Talking about marriage and having babies, how does all the above fit in.
74) Why was Seletar Market torn down?
Yes. It was a mistake to take the market down. A waste of resources. If it still remain standing today, Fernvale residents like Rachel would have enjoyed the facilties. And the hawker’s lives would not have to be uprooted and relocated (whereto I have no clue) There were some really nice food there.
72) rachel
///so any guess if it is worth to buy an hdb in fernvale road ?
hope the price wont go down in future !////
really crystal balling here to guess if its price will go up or down. hope you bought it at not too steep a price.
76) Gilbert Goh
Wise words Gilbert. A refreshing rational point of view.
80) kangeroo ,
///Thanks for the elaborate footwork ! ,///
Thank you for your kind words. I put in some numbers in the hope that pple here can have a more constructive and rational discussion, rather than shooting off emotive generalisation that feels great momentarily when we let off our frustration, and ending up no wiser than we started.
“Winter come and the wind blow colder,
some grow wiser but we just grow older” – Paul Willaims
/// I should have mentioned comparison of HDB prices @ Marine Parade vs Condo prices elsewhere.///
///one can certainly get a condo elsewhere for that same price, of coz sans the sea view, proximity to ECP/airport etc etc. ///
Yes you can get a decent condo at that price in another not too “choice” locale. But location is personal choice.
///As from your tabulation, one can obviously see that with HDB prices hovering around $700K @ Marine Parade, ///
The weakness in market valuation, the valuers value the flats based on on numerous factors but still primarily on what was last transacted price sold in the same/nearby block. So if a guy strike Toto, and but a 4 room flat at Fernvale at $999,000, guess what, Rachel @ Fernvale will be delighted because valuation will shoot up at Fernvale. And it does not reflect the average value of all the other units there, if assuming that was the only flat sold in the past many moons.
///Thus, the issue of allowing market forces to dictate the HDB prices should be re-examined. ///
Yes and no.
///Do we aspire a situation whereby HDB prices are drummed up to a level beyond the reach of the newly weds ?///
That’s is the sticky part, whether one prefers the price to be high or low really depend on whether you are existing onwre or a new entrant.
81)
///Do you think that they are still practising this modus-operandi ? ///
HDB’s pricing policy has evolved (or degenerated as some will see it) over the decades.
In the early years, its was purely based on flat type, irrespective of location.
Then zonal prcing was introduced, flat price vary depending on if it is located in urban, suburaban, or new town,
And finally market pricing.
With each policy change, a market distortion is created, a window of opportunity opens for some to make a good profit, and others to get burned.
You see the same phenomenom in COE pricing.
So unless the policy changes again, the opportunity for huge gains is now but a dream. But for those new entrance, it is a recurring nightmare.
To me the HDB is the biggest scam in Singapore. How can a 30-40k discount from the market prices be considered as a subsidy when they don’t even dare to tell the buyer what the building costs were?
It used to be that you wouldn’t lose money from buying a HDB flat if you were a first time buyer, but now even first timers can get burnt if they bought the flat at the wrong time from HDB. Prices can be undercut by the HDB even for flats in the same block when they are sold at different times. My neighbour paid 50k more than me for the same flat just because he had bought it when prices were high. Public housing in my view is definitely the biggest government scam in Singapore.
hmmm, i wonder how much HDB has “collected” from numerous balloting exercise since it was introduced.
strangely those conservative people never see it as a form of gambling.
Come July 1….CPF minimum sum will be $117,000/- and Medisave minimum sum to be $32,000/- Now assuming a HDB BTO and a Resale of Standard HDB for 4R & 5R is between $400,000 – $500,00/- range respectively. …………now where is the money coming?………you think money$$$ grows on trees? ……..
So where to live? some say in JB or Batam!
damn pathetic country spore is, just look at the damn world map, someone need to claim & lead msia & indo for betterment of mankind already
How to stand up for Singapore when everything is so high?
87) mice is nice /
///hmmm, i wonder how much HDB has “collected” from numerous balloting exercise since it was introduced.//////
In the early years of national development, housing the mass was a national priority, so I believe gahmen would have find ways to built them at low cost, and one way, as they have done, was to design the flats to cater to very basic needs. My guess is that in today’s context, With 85% housed in HDB, that is no longer a national priority for gahmen, so thus the flat prices we get now, albeit coming with some frills.
87) mice is nice
In the 60s, 70s and 80s, hundreds of thousand of flats were built to cater the the demand for population growth and resettlement of kampongs
With the low birth rate, the current stock of flats will start to fall vacant as the older generation passes on.
Today, most people live in flats with their parents, buy one for themselves when they get married, and when it is time for their own kids to buy their flats, chances are the kid’s grandparents’s flat will become vacant.
So it is not sustainable tokeep building at the rate of the early years. Gahmen learnt the hard way when tthey overbuilt Woodland, took more than 10 years to clear the excess stock, and then the rgahmen epeated the same mistake in SengKang and Punggol.
New families buying into the resale market will be the way to go.
58) shenshi ,
LHL is not interested somehow about the poors. so he left to his so called Ministers to ‘handle it’ and MBT is known for making millions for his ministry and also blue eye boy of LKY.
so you do the sums, guy!
that’s why MBT is buidling more rent ‘flat’ for you guys who have ‘shits’ problems. i am dread for the day to come when thousands cant afford to just 3 rooms flat.
the way it goes, apparently they have no answers to all these issues.
sad…..
aiyoyo
flat prices so sky high, how commoners can take it?
sad story…
aiyoyo
“New families buying into the resale market will be the way to go.”
why leh, bcos of fewer facilities in newer estates ? smaller new flats ? mistake ? new flat prices got mistakes or not ?
even lower price wise, why people don’t want to go for new flats in newer estates and go for older resale flats ? if bozos do not listen to feeback, the same mistakes will be repeated ? or probably they can choose not to build further and make home hunters take whatever left around from their mistakes before building further.
hi KopitiamApek,
thanks for replying to my post. you mentioned grandchildren moving into the grandparents home. good idea, but when the blocks are old, they will need to move again, cos will be torn down?
on this topic of profiteering, even after factoring the rising costs of raw materials, land cost, frills, designer landscaping, differences in finishing, & all others which i am not privy of, its still hard to stomach & digest how the prices have gone up, up & away.
you are right about not being able to sustain the rate of building once most of the population have been housed. HDB should have ventured overseas to expand their “business” model more.
heh, you brought up a good point of HDB’s miscalculation that left many units empty after completion. that i believe most companies that have a long history has gone through some sort of learning curve. just like economic situation now forcing a stress test to make or break companies.
Glow #79:
“this exercise in ASSet inflation only steals from our future wealth or the wealth of our children.. to give to the people who want it NOW… for whatever purpose they may offer ..eg.. “economic growth”.. “Asset rich”..”
My uncles’ generation (80′s, early to mid 90′s) had it good for those who capitalise on the opportunities, but, sell, buy, sell…
My younger colleagues in their mid to late twenties now strangely cannot afford to purchase a brand new modest, 3 bed room, less than 100 sqm government public housing. Couple Uni grads. Got to buy from the resale market.
The wife and i managed to buy a new HDB flat at still “modest” price during yr 1999/2000. No intention to sell. Yes, Gilbert, the wifey and i are the sentimental types. It’s a beautiful home in a pleasant neighbourhood to raise the kids.
My personal view is that, looking at the big picture:
PAP government is running an elite-meritocratic policy. To the elite, the sky’s the limit. To the bulk of the middle class, they have to suppress the income so as to make Singapore an attractive export oriented economy. This current economic model needs this “suppression” doctrine.
Our CPF (social security) is used to pay for the purchase of the flats. By the time ones retire, there is not much money left for retirement. Now, they offer to “buy back” the retirees flat in return for a monthly stipend. So where is the asset enhancement that the PAP gov talk about? Looking at it, this is as good as rental.
One hope to leave something for ones children. A home use to be the best investment a man can do for his family. Work hard for a home and in time to come it is yours to leave to your children. A legacy.
Peasants don’t need legacy maybe.
Why is it common that Loan Sharks often target HDB Flats ? Paying high price of a resale HDB and going through the the turmoil of terror for some innocent investor/s, goes to say that something is not right somewhere down the line!. The faultline is Money Not Enough!
97) mice is nice ,
/// but when the blocks are old, they will need to move again, cos will be torn down?///
yes that is what SERS is about, but generally those built from 70s onward would not be obsolete too fast, it will have lease until 2069, that’s why they introduce upgrading so that you won’t get urban slums.
///on this topic of profiteering, even after factoring the rising costs of raw materials, land cost, frills, designer landscaping, differences in finishing, & all others which i am not privy of, its still hard to stomach & digest how the prices have gone up, up & away.///
yes the pricing criteria has changed since,
contruction cost statistics are available on building construction authority’s website
///. HDB should have ventured overseas to expand their “business” model more.///
they have. Its called Surbana International, spinoff from the HDB Corp.
////heh, you brought up a good point of HDB’s miscalculation that left many units empty after completion. that i believe most companies that have a long history has gone through some sort of learning curve. just like economic situation now forcing a stress test to make or break companies///
companies that have a long history has gone through some sort of learning curve
sadly some companies recycle their mistakes : )
Note GM has got some 100 years history
I have always maintained that HDB stop its repossession policies especially in the down times. When will they listen only at the ballot box! When they started to raise the prices, it caused people to over stretched themselves and some have yet to come out of their plight. It has failed in its housing policies over the last few years.
hi KopitiamApek,
thanks for your reply again. =)
HDB should venture into India or any developing countries to provide affordable housing, they can make profit there something. they have, but must be not very successful. heh….
sad hor, some people never learn from past mistake. i think some have been making mistakes till can carve in stone.
“die die never learn”
^.^