One day, some day, we’re all gonna look back at all this ruckus and laugh till tears flow…

instructor’s guides are intended to guide/ensure that the original intention of the author of the material are not deviated from when the course is delivered irrespective of the person doing the delivery.

Does make you wonder that the authors’ intention are?

mess around with “mess-engers from the sky” and POOOOP they take over your group.

Talk abt being played from behind by Aware. Poor MOE.

Does not sound like a responsible/reasonable statement at all to me.

patriot

excuses excuses excuses..josie n her pussycats have e last laugh..round one. The old guards won e battle but lose e war! U knw why? They turned xtremely ugly n militant at e meeting. Anyway, 2 wrongs do not make a right. The entire clan looks stupid!

Is it so difficult for NEH to say; “Yes, we were fooled?”

harder to say “we were actually fooled by an online petition supposed to represent conservative majority”.

Translation of the statement: “We got shafted in the back by AWARE.”

Bowing to TSM’s religious fanatics again. But cannot be helped since TSM’s religious fanatics are people very powerful in singapore. Powerful enough to sway politics. Sometimes wonder, national pledge is fake or not. Government doesnt practise equality btwn all races and religions but want people to practise it.

Its in the document for the presenters to refer to if questions were asked.

I.e. If someone were to ask such a question “Is homosexuality bad”, what is the context in which it was being asked?

2 Possibilities:
1) There’s a person in class they like to pick on for acting “gay” and the question was meant to embarass this person.

2) The person asking is confused and likely already harbor such tendencies.

How would the presenter reply, knowing these are 2 possible situations? Say its bad and drive the person further in and give undue stress? Or say something that does not offend anyone since it does not help at all to condemn?

This is clear instance of Aware screwing up the wrong backside, and still adamant to admit Ministry Of Edn’s damning verdict.

In fact, the conclusive final word of MoEdn is that Aware has lost parents’ trust.

Can someone show him the books on our bad investments by Temasek and GIC?

Maybe they don’t know they have lost a lot of our money.

Why School need to teach Sexual Education!

Should this be the Jobs of Parents! I must say Asian Parent Bo Chay! American do teach their children! Don’t be Shy!

Why can’t Dana just publish the teaching materials in full? That would clarify everything.

“internal document”? half accept for copyright issues, half dun accept for attempt to cover backside.

ooh wait, does it mean there was no vetting process initially?

I think it’s very irresponsible of MOE to act in the way they have. They think that by pushing all the perceived issues on AWARE they can just keep themselves at bay.

Saying it is an “internal document” means they have no idea thus should not have any responsibility. But this is also giving the wrong idea that AWARE had an agenda that was hidden from view, since they did not inform MOE about it.

Can this be any more stupid? A program that was taught in schools to over hundreds of students and if something was indeed wrong MOE didn’t know? I find it hard to accept.

First they say nothing wrong, nobody complained to them. Then they backtrack and suspend the programs. Now they say they didn’t know about “internal documents”.

What a great way this government operates on.

And for those who want to argue that “internal documents” is an acceptable explanation, just bear in mind when they start using this trick in the next “mess up” by government.

I suggest all schools which have had AWARE teaching their students conduct a survey from these students and ask them objectively if they had benefitted from this program and whether such teaching had led their to immoral thinking and participating in immoral acts. Are they matured enough to seive out the knowledge they have learnt from this program. Have they benefitted or been misled.

That is his way of apologising?

Also Temasek just ‘apologised’ for BOA scandal?

It may not be the best answer but I am pleased MOE has taken the right action in withdrawing the school’s autonomy in the hiring of external providers of sexuality education programmes.

I don’t think it is fair to accuse MOE for being in the dark about the contents of the instructors’ manual when it was never submitted to MOE in the first place. MOE probably never expected AWARE to promote homosexuality under the guise of sex education. If it was not for the AWARE saga, this issue would not have come to light.

As a father, I don’t think I want my children to be told that “homosexuality is netural” or “normal”. If it is normal, then 50% of the population should be gay! So I am glad that MOE has banned the AWARE programme and will pay closer attention to the contents of such programmes.

21) Hidden Agenda on May 22nd, 2009 6.23 pm

….. MOE probably never expected AWARE to promote homosexuality under the guise of sex education……

From AWARE point of view, saying homosexual is “neutral” is an inclusive position instead of promoting it.

From gov point of view, homosexual is not mainstream and should be tolerated.

From certain people point of view, homosexual is not acceptable / abnormal.

It is more a case of AWARE doing what it thinks is appropriate instead of having any stealth agenda to promote homosexual.

Please take note that in this whole saga, both sides were accused to have hidden agenda and both sides denied the accusation.

If it is normal, then 50% of the population should be gay!

Is left-handed people normal? Is people who choose to be single normal? We need better reasoning to say what is normal and what is not. And what should we do if people do not fall inside the mainstream lifestyle. We have a lot of soul searching and thinking to go in dealing with this matter.

Yawn. old topic. “AWARE promoted homosexuality under the guise of sex education” is only true for christians. Because to skewed minds, not condemning homosexuality equates promoting homosexality. i rather not take a stand on homosexuality.

christians want everything 2b black and white in this world, which is impossible unlesss god intervene. But god didn’t.

I think not fair to have a selective quote and ask for comments. Why not publish the whole report–which is well balanced and encouraging

Since it is an internal document, then it reflects AWARE’s opinion that homosexuality should be regarded neutral. The argument which all AWARE critics take is that AWARE should always take side with what they perceive as mainstream conservatives. Only idiots can’t see through the fallacy of their own argument.

Do they care if it is an internal document – they always have their rights to forage and get what they want ; a fraternity trait amongst them.
.
NEH must have his bout of escapism then ……….. an escaped mistake …..move on lor …….blah blah blah

How unfair to blame BOTH sides of the Aware leadership tussle for dragging schools ‘into this melee’, when it was only the FM and her Gang who used the schools’ CSE to justify their takeover.

But then I suppose he needs to placate those 7000+ ‘parents’ who allegedly signed the online petition. Wonder how many of them will take up his Ministry’s offer to ‘meet with each one of them, give them the information they need, go through what is taught’?

Anything to do with impact on students, especially when the activities take place in schools, is definitely is under MOE’s nose.
Comparing a procedural norm (like access of internal documents) against the impact on young generation. Just admit that MOE could have done better from day 1, with measures on improvement, and I would have let the matter rest.
Looks like we have a hr (recruitment) problem among policy makers : this kind of calibre.

If MOE being the governing body to provide all appropriate teaching materials n guidelines as well as supervisions (inspectors going to schools to check) and for not being fully aware of what AWARE CSE contents are, then how could the principals, parents and the general public know what is wrong, and hence complain. How are we to get the facts, and get them right? So, I believe that SMOS is being unreasonable in shouting at us in the very first place. On hindsight, he must now know the real problems, just like us the general public, thanks to TSM. I sincerely hope that MOE learn from this saga as some of the students and parents have already paid for their lesson fees by been on AWARE CSE. Obviously, I dont expect any govt officials to apologise as they are almost blameless. If any of them do so, it will be great and a bonus.

Let’s hail these women from the same church …they did Little Red Dot huge favour
by not letting it go pink. you did good, brave women!

# 30) Daniel Lim

/On hindsight, he must now know the real problems, just like us the general public, thanks to TSM. /

Please elaborate – what ‘real problems’ are you referring to? I am of the general public, and I am completely in the dark about what you are talking about.

/I sincerely hope that MOE learn from this saga as some of the students and parents have already paid for their lesson fees by been on AWARE CSE. /

what ‘lesson fees’ have the parents and students paid by being on AWARE CSE? I would really like to know. I thought the CSE programme (for those schools who had the programme) was included in the school fees? Also, did any of those who were actually on the programme complain about it? Substantiate your statement please.

dun need talk so much, time for pay cut!!

never fail, never learn. time for those sleeping on the job to pay for their sloppy performance.

#29 kf – agreed & well said. We need more balanced voices like yours.

#26 Donaldson : along similar lines, we might wish to remember that AWARE was being engaged by the schools/ MOE as a service provider. Presumably they signed some sort of contract?

The point being that AWARE was not being engaged to take anyone’s side but it contractually has to follow whatever MOE states since MOE is in charge of the schools.

If your contractor (in your opinion) didn’t do a good job of renovating your home, disturbed all the neighbours etc, are you under compulsion to re-engage the contractor again? Willing buyer, willing seller. But now we have aware seller, a wary buyer…

Learn to provide good service to your customer and they will come back again!Complain & complain, call people idiots no use lah….if you don’t believe just ask

PhuaChuKang

To Education Minister:

First, the AWARE sex program could not have been implemented without the approval of MOE, right?

Presumably there were discussions between AWARE officials and MOE, right?

Did MOE ask AWARE to explain its modus operandi for educating students in this area?

Did MOE ask to see all the literature that AWARE would be using for this program?

If MOE did not ask the right questions or if MOE was clueless of some of the program contents, who was at fault?

Arguably, a good sex education program is expected to cover many sex-related issues including, of course, homosexuality, right?

How should the subject of homosexuality be taught should then be a natural topic of sex education, right? But it appears MOE took things for granted, right?

The argument that it was an internal document which MOE was ignorant of can be seen as an argument without substance, Mr Education Minister.

It is not rational to shift blame at this stage, Mr Education Minister, but you wouldn’t agree with this, right?

Are you a logical person, Mr Education Minister?

ST comments today makes the most sense.

MOE states premarital sex is negative – which teacher dare to teach this and risK being teased by the students?

You think ALL the teachers did not have pre marital sex? Is it a value they ALLl hold?

What about openly effiminate teachers – will they lose their jobs now that the line by MOE is that it is negative, not neutral?

Of course now that MOE pander to this line of thoughts, Sex education in schools will take 2 steps back and no one will dare teach it frankly and openly.

Pink is my daugther’s favorite color and Blue is my son’s favorite color. I hope it keeps that way.

(24) Chua. For me in this episode, God intervened. The evil AWARE empire has been exposed and the Government acted to stop the ridiculous programme. Divine intevention. Haha.

I also strongly suggest that for those who think that homosexuality is an absolutely important tolerance to teach their children, please rally the Aware to provide an black belt intensive homosexual is ok training program (HOK) for their children.

#37

“I also strongly suggest that for those who think that homosexuality is an absolutely important tolerance to teach their children, please rally the Aware to provide an black belt intensive homosexual is ok training program (HOK) for their children.”

Great idea. Let the parents decide if they want this. Free to choose.

AWARE & GLBT run this course. Or you scared no-one will sign up? Be like Josie & Co — balls of brass.

#36

“openly effiminate teachers” etc

Hey not all gays are effiminate. And who defines, “effiminate”?

Hi LadyMadonna,

I hope this will help you in understanding my points.
“Real problems” – Part of the AWARE CSE contents is not appropriate, or plainly quoting MOE “not within their guidelines”.

“Lesson fees” – not the real dollars and cents. I am referring to intangile fees paid by those students been taught inappropriately. So, I hope that the MOE officials must learn from their mistakes, and learn them well.

If you are still confuse or disagree with my views, it is ok. I am just expressing mine. No ill intention meant.

internal documents, external documents, whatevever. Just plain oversight, admit it please. We are sick of garhment’s perennial forwardance of excuses; lost of multi-billions in investments, sale of BOA shares, insistence to reward themselves multi-millions.

“hello, u are getting a bargain here for $2 million a year ok?!
u expect me to work? then pay me at least $4 million.”

- bargain hen

some civil servants are living of taxpayers’ monies with little responsibilities. they should be made to compete with FTs. can save taxpayers’ money also, win-win solution.

competition is good, long live S’pore Inc.

39) Daniel Lim

Absolutely no problems with you expressing your views. Just don’t presume to express them on behalf of the ‘general public’, of which I am also one.

As to whether the students were taught ‘inappropriately’, that is a matter of opinion. If you have children who underwent the Aware CSE programme, and you don’t think it’s ‘appropriate’ for them, you are entitled to do so – you have the right to decide for your children if they are minors.

However, please don’t presume to speak for other parents, especially those whose children actually went throught the programme. If they don’t complain, why should you? And if you are going to point to the 7000+ ‘concerned parents’ who signed the online petition against the Aware CSE, the jury is out as to how many really are parents, and how many of them have children who underwent/or might have undergone the Aware programme, but for this ruckus.

No ill intention on my part either, just pointing out that your right to express your views does not include claiming to express them on behalf of the ‘general public’ or the parents whose children have undergone the Aware CSE (unless they have authorised you to speak on their behalf). As they are the most directly affected, let them speak for themselves – or tot he MOE, if they so wish.

Whats all the furor about an INTERNAL MANUAL?

Shouldn’t the focus be on the ACTUAL PRESENTATION?

After all, thats what the students are exposed to.

37) Lightning Strikes Again

Why attribute it to divine intervention? If God had been on the side of FM & Gang, he would have given them Aware at the EGM, then they could have promoted their own CSE – abstinence, which would have seen the number of teen pregnancies and STDs continue rising. Besides, TSM’s FOTF was also suspended along with the Aware CSE, wasn’t it? Haha.

hi Daniel Lim & LadyMadonna,

i think you both misunderstood the finer points each is pointing out. both of you are ion the same side of the coin, but focusing the issue from different points.

Daniel Lim’s poits:
1) not knowing all the facts, hance not able to conclude what is wrong. kudos for not jumping to conclusions.
2) about students paying the “price”. yes, i agree many generations of students were “lab rats” when a new concept, carriculum, so on is rolled out in the initial phase. there is no apologies for failed “experiments” & of cos money back guarantee…

LadyMadonna’s points in reply to Daniel’s:
1) “lesson fees” in the form of being “lab rats”? unlikely parents of affected students will get an apology for any slip-ups, Ministor Ng’s official statement is plainly spelt out, the “not my fault” attitude.
2) about speaking on behalf of other parents. only in post #30, not having all the facts about Aware’s CSE program, not speaking on other parents behalf on what is best for (other parent/s’) children. there was no attempt on his part to play the role of a “father hen”. its true parents do not know the full contents of CSE, but again. if parents were not a weak link in their child/rens’ upbringing, it won’t be such an issue.
3) about complaining about the programs, based on the timing of the petition, i can only guess parents are not really that concerned. besides, as you have rightly pointed out. who is to know if all who sign the petition are parents of kids who have sat through Aware’s CSE program. a large number could be clones, drones & “concered” parents who responded with little tought process- kneejerk reaction.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

MOE gave in to a small, but very vocal pressure group. a hint of how far standards have dropped, not being on top of situations. the “fire” has spread too far too long & too widely, MOE’s reponse may be all but too late to appease either camps.

/////MOE said it will not be able to use AWARE to run sexuality education programme in schools until it’s gained the public’s trust for its sexuality programmes./////

a lame attempt to divert attention to its own failings, how about public’s trust in MOE?

Since all of you talk so much. Stop whatever programmes and conduct your own lessons. That’s will solve all the problem. Parents are the best person to guide our childrens. Don’t push to other people to do it as they spend most of the time with us. Relax!!!!!

MOE did the right thing. It took courage to backtrack. By this action MOE has already apologised enough. No need to belabour the point and said what is obvious. From the latest MOE statement i know that a future generation of Singaporeans is safe! Onward we march!

I think MoE did well in refusing access to students, aptly termed ‘privelege’, to external vendors. It also rightly pointed out that parents have lost trust in AWARE.

Another statement:
‘We do not condone promiscuity, sexual experimentation or promote homosexuality. MOE teaches the values which are held by the majority, whether they are religious or not.’

Good sexual values and ethics, as pointed out, have nothing to do with an exclusive religion.

re Socrates,

how safe are impressionable kids from the internet, movies with liberal themes, peers all over the world (some living liberal lifestyles) from online social networking sites, even free-to-air programs are becoming more liberal each passing year?

oh, what about kids with up-to-date mobile phones that enable pics & videos to be shared? ooh, you got the pic of the up-&-coming hunk or chick (something liddat)?

if some think the “war” is won, think again. that is only a skirmish. the horrible liberal “horde” is out there.

little wonder why ugly S’poreans tar everyone with a bad name. some parents just do not understand their children, communication fail, they are not able see the world through their child’ eye. with little rapport how are those parents going to be able to “education” their child/ren about emotionly charged topics?

nice mice 50)
You re right of course..that is another battle ? How should it be fought?Parental control? Censorship? If you into pornhub.com you see everything. In China this site is banned. What to do..what to do???sigh sigh…

socrates, #48,
I am with you that by MOE’s action, it could be taken as an apology initially. However, with the latest comment above, it’s hard for me to hold this conclusion. The comment is like saying “don’t blame me for something which is not within my control”. I don’t want to target at the gentleman from MOE who said this. This is not the first time when something goes wrong, he tries to wash his hands completely clean (instead of either stating that more proactive measures to be taken, or a joint responsibility is involved).
On the diplomatic side, there will be people with opinion that MOE has not been on top of things. On the ugly side, they are simply bochap.

Hi Phua Chu Kang,

The problem here is AWARE and the Religious Right have different opinion of what neutral means. The Secular Camp sees neutral in the sense homosexuality and homosexual behaviour should be seen in the same light as heterosexuality and heterosexual behaviour.

The Religious Right claims that while they view the homosexuality orientation as neutral, they still call homosexual behaviour a sin. This is what they mean by “love the sinner, hate the sin”. By indicating heterosexual behaviour in positive light, it has the effect of putting down homosexual behaviour.

Singapore is a plural society and nobody is stopping the Church to organise their own Sex-Ed program during Sunday School. As long the Religious Right does not wage its “spiritual” war in MOE territory, there is no reason for Secular Camp to confront them. The onus has and always been on the Religious Right.

However, one should take not that there is nothing wrong to inform students that Section 377A criminalises homosexual behaviour because this is factual. But refraining to inform students the Government ’s intention to not prosecute homosexual behaviour is an act of propagating a category of lies call half-truths. Question is which law takes precedence – the Law of God or the Law of the State?

What to do ? This is a “I don’t know” govt.!

We should stop wasting our time blogging.
We blog in vain cos we don’t win the other side over.
Provocative words are a waste of energy. You get frustrated and the enemy gets angry.
There is no way one camp is crossing over to the other and V V.
MOE has decided and so it is. Let’s respect authority.
All religions in harmony cos all frown on homosexuality.
Show time over, balek kampong and be useful men and women.
Stop discriminating each other.

if you don’t know who knows?

if you don’t know why get paid so much for?

bloody excuses all the time!

why do the heads of the ministry behave as such? Case in point: WKS, #1 Siam King.

sotong virus so infectious, so many kenna already. lol…. :P