The following are letters or emails to The Online Citizen during the course the past month or so.
Sock puppeting
Dear Sir, Madam.
I would like to inquire what’s the stand for TOC with regards to sock puppeting? I mean I understand the moderation is difficult and time consuming. But it seems clear to me that there’s a very high possibility of sock puppetry among the comments within articles related to the AWARE saga.
I won’t list out who are the suspects, it’s true they share a sentiment different from mine, but from what I can see; it seems clear to me that it’s just one or two person sock puppeting. I mean come on, the language and how the arguments are formed are so similiar. Not to mention the moniker used. xx parent, xx parent, parent xx. The current system seems to be open to abuse and does not provide a proper representation of members of the community.
My suggestion is that you consider adding a report button to make moderation easier and if its not too much trouble for TOC; to require registration of an account for commenting. I believe it would make life a lot easier for your moderation team and clean up the commenting
I appreciate the platform that your site has provided for discussion, but although current sytem is useful for anyone who wishes to comment but do not want to go thru the hassle of registering. However when a system is abused, one should look to change it. It is interesting to engage discourse with people who have opposing beliefs, however when its clear that its just one or two individuals posing as multiple individuals. I believe it is not conducive for any form of reasonable discussion.
Thank you and Regards
SpeedWeed
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Sad with TOC AWARE coverage
I am disappointed and sad to see how TOC handled the AWARE “saga”. I used to appreciate and admire TOC’s objectivity in reporting (especially issues that are not reported in mainstream press) and the sharpness and depth of analysis and comments. However, in this instance, objective facts were being
manipulated and mingled with subjective views and one-sided comments, in a way which is no different from mainstream press, which frequently try to sway public opinion… greatly disappointing… maybe the only consolation is to see the “true face” of TOC now…
Anonymous
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TOC broken new ground
Just a note of thanks and my heartfelt congrats for a wonderful job. I think TOC has broken new ground with your live coverage, and the way the entire saga was reported, and comments moderated. I appreciated your updates – which were much faster that what was coming over the news media (though they have other constrains). Thanks for the effort.
SY
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English – old guard or old guards?
TOC, kudos for quality reporting on the AWARE EOGM.
Just a small note on your English.. It should be “old guard” instead of “old guards”. The sense of “guard” you are using is figurative.. The old exco aren’t “guards” in the same sense as the auxillary police.
I don’t really know the exact explanation why “old guard” should be without the “s”, but I’m pretty sure I’m right :)
Kevin Seah
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Appeal to ministers to “do something to stop… unscrupulous people in TOC”
The following letter was sent to Ministers Vivian Balakrishnan (MCYS) and K Shanmugam (Law) and copied to The Online Citizen.
Dear Ministers
I would like to bring to your attention that TheOnLineCitizen, in its biased objective of supporting the old guards of AWARE, had dangerously thread on using religion to fan opinions of its readers that it was Christianity who was behind the new guards’ actions.
Based on this, it had successfully stirred up some degree of hatred and wrong perceptions towards Christianity, just based on the kind of comments and opinions expressed by the various posters within the
forum. THEIR DECEITFUL INTENTIONS SHOULD NOT BE LEFT UNCHECKED!
I urged our dear Ministers to do something to stop these unscrupulous people in TOC from conveniently using religion for their own gain in solidifying influence at the expense of our harmonious society.
In the same manner, I would like to also urge you to take actions against Church Of Our Savior, for crossing the line and using their religious influence in supporting the new guards of AWARE.
The settlement between the old and new guards must be done in accordance to the constitutions of AWARE and in full spectrum of Singapore’s law.
Thanks for your kindest attention and actions on TOC and Church Of Our Savior.
Sincerely
A Concerned Citizen
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Offer of help to AWARE’s women in need
Dear Sir/Madame,
I work as an ethicist and have become deeply concerned about the recent change of leadership in AWARE and about the ability of AWARE’s counseling arm to continue providing professional help and support for women in need, given the views of the current Exco on homosexuality and also given how they have spoken about the capacities of women for self-determination.
I have written a commentary addressing this issue and also other issues deriving from this which have an impact on their counselling services.
I wonder if you would be willing to provide some space on your website for this letter? You can find it here:
http://www.glass-castle.org/
Thank you for taking the time to consider this.
Regards,
Alexandra Serrenti
———–
Angry that comment was not posted
Hi
I had responded to Stephanie’s post in TOC “Care about AWARE: Leaders we respect” (see below), and was surprised that you had chosen to delete the post, which therefore, prompted me to ask TOC’s positioning in this whole saga.
Has TOC moved from being an “A Community of Singaporeans” to now being “A Community of Singaporeans Gays & Lesbians”? If you are not, why did you chose to only feature post that supports Stephanie’s view and delete opposing views.
I hope to get a response soon, otherwise, it only highlights the fact that you had decided to make a stand on this issue and I will have no choice but to start an online communiqué denouncing your hypocrisy and double standards! I am not from a Christian group, but from a grassroots organization (we have members from all religions and nationalities) that believes in the wholesome upbringing of Singapore children, and we will not allow sites like TOC to shamelessly support gays and lesbians at the expense of the majority of Singaporeans who treasured true family values.
I hope to have your response by today before we start our own campaign against TOC and the old guards of AWARE!
Song Heng Khow
The Online Citizen’s reply to Song heng Khow through email:
Relax. Your comment was posted at 2.38am (according to the time stamp on the comment). It is Sunday. We’re not at the computer at all times to release comments caught in the moderation queue. (I think we were all sleeping at 2.38am., literally.)
There was no intention to “delete” your posting.
Relax.
As for your threat to start a campaign against TOC, I find it unfortunate. A campaign because of one comment posted on TOC caught in the moderation queue? We’ll leave it to you to go ahead with the campaign if you so wish.
Regards,
Andrew Loh
——–
Dear TOC;
The latest topics in TOC are almost all linked and associated with religions or have connotations of faith.
Me feels that Singaporeans are intimately and negatively affected by the global economic downturn and that our policy makers not only failed to take care and look after the welfares and well-being of the people, they have made living very difficult for Singaporeans. TOC, in my opinion, have been and being
sensitive to the plights of the people and had helped to raise and highlight the sufferings.
However, recent discussions (discourse) have diverted away from the bread and butter issues or it may be argued that issues of social/religious matters are as important and relevant. Me will not dispute this view/claim, however, may i take the Aware Organization itself to tell You my observations.
Awares\’ existence hardly matters to the average citizen, as the record itself shows, it had only a couple of hundred members and though memberships inexplicably rose because of the recent publicities, it has yet to rise beyond thousand. This is self explanatory in terms of its\’ importance in our society. Aware is just a drop in the ocean as far as its\’ influences is concerned with our daily livings(my opinion)
If i may say it this way; had we not have more pressing issues affecting our livings, it would be nice to talk about other issues. To concentrate on the two aforesaid religiously influenced topics at this juncture greatly distract the people (readers). Like to suggest that TOC explore some social developments/phenomenons in people relations such as parents/offsprings, employer/employee, relative/clansmanship, colleague/fellow worker, neighbours and ruler/ruled relationships etc.
The above is forwarded as a personal opinion/suggestion and not intended to be any form of disagreement or criticism. I hope to be constructive and wish that I do.
Yours Truly:
patriot
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Its funny how the ‘Concerned Citizen’ doesn’t reveal his/her name. Not that I’m much better in that respect at the moment, but I’m not writing to 2 Ministers..
With regard to the commenting system, no system is perfect. It is a part of life in the online world that some level of ‘noise’ is to be expected, including people who are just out to flame or go offtopic, etc.
Having that in mind, it might be useful for there to be a system where (trusted?) registered users can mod up/down posts such that spam or pointless posts are more or less hidden (but can still be opened and read), leaving the more constructive posts with more attention.
I find that TOC has been a relatively interesting read; other times though, it does feel dangerously close to being on the extreme opposite end of the MSM, as if you were trying to make demons out of them. Perhaps that is your point in TOC, but it might be even better if you can be known for your objectivity and balanced reporting, instead of being known as just another anti-MSM outlet.
Thanks, kyon.
TOC, hopefully, is not an anti-anything outlet. If you look at our articles themselves, I’d say they are rather constructive. At least, not that much venom – critical but rationally so – hopefully.
As for the issue of having registered users, we’re mulling over it. And what you suggested, we’ll look into it.
Finally, we haven’t heard from Vivian Balakrishnan or K Shanmugam.
No knock on the door at midnight either.. :)
The news TOC posted the during the AWARE saga is so skewed to pro-gay, it is no different from ST. You mean to say that there are no alternative views that was in blogosphere?
You should rename TOC as STOC.
Not only it was so glaringly and blatantly one sided towards gays during the Aware event, it was unmistakenly anti-Christian (or anti COOS) judging from the postings. One dont need to have a journalistic eye or the brain of a rocket scientist to notice the differences. There’s one particaular dont-know-what vice poster, whose comments bordered on the imfammatory against Christians, even inciting hatred towards them.
This is one reason I have unsubsribed from regular TOC feeds as its not worth even a single minute of my free time.. And now I prefer to read just when I feel like it instead.
“Pro gay”, hahaha! Anything that’s not anti-gay is automatically pro-gay.
“You’re either with us or against us!”
If there’re no updates on TOC tomorrow we’ll know why..
I’d agree that most of the articles are quite well-written and constructive. Maybe I just read too much into some of the jibes I think you sometimes take at the MSM..
:P
SpeedWeed’s suggestion is good. Although I am not familiar with the expression ‘sock puppeting’ I get the gist of his message. I don’t know if TOC’s software can do it but if you link a nick-name with an e-mail address, this should do the trick.
The first part of A Concerned Citizen’s letter is nonsense.
Kevin Seah – ‘guard’ can be both singular or plural (hence ‘old guard’).
I think “A Concerned Citizen” should really look at things from a larger perspective and think, is his action really making him seem different from the rest of whom he deems “incorrect”? Taking action against each other? Is he a tad impatient to see the saga get blown up again?
Its time to take a step back, clean up whatever remaining mess and get on with life. Why can’t people just get along with each other, putting your own little agendas or self righteousness back in your pockets.
Song Heng Khow:
It is well known that being intolerant to the minority will only drive them underground. Are you a parent? If you are, you should realise tt won’t prevent your kids from turning into gays or what, it will only make them hide it from you. We have to realise that while homosexuality is discouraged, people have their rights of choice. TOC has to be neutral. AWARE has to be neutral. As much as I wouldn’t want my future children to be homo, everyone is as human as you are.
You are part of a grassroot org. You may be a future leader or someone with status. But it is important to get to the root of the concern and deal with it rather than going about making enemies unnecessarily. Are your actions against TOC going to make you famous, or have great impact, just because of some comments, or articles? No! People are smarter nowdays, they take what they read with a pinch of salt. They judge you not by your actions but by inference.
You wan’t to make a difference? Make sure every single family in your neighbourhood is sound and stable. Make sure people stop losing jobs, and parents stop passing their stress to their children. Educate people to be less protective of their children. Have better bond between parent and child.
Many people have been banging their heads on the wrong walls. Its time to focus on the things which matter.
Just like NKF lost its plot, RENCI lost its footing, TOC is going the same path of being lead astray. Disappointing to see that religion is being used by the TOC writers to manipulate to win non-christian support. This is really despicable.
Let’s not get overboard and over-generous with our comments bashing TOC for the AWARE coverage. My position on TOC’s moderation policy had been well-recorded and I had fought tooth and nail with TOC over it. However, over the course of it all, I began to realised, as repeatedly pointed out by fellow readers, that it is TOC’s perogative and its right as bloghost. We do not know exactly what goes on behind the scene and very often, TOC had had to work within boundaries it sets for itself.
As for the above comments rebuking TOC for the partisan coverage, I would like to draw the reader’s attention to the declaration made by Zheng Xi, stating exactly, in no uncertain terms, his position on the issue. I had felt, before entering into the debate, that his articles were not only supportive of the old guard but calculated to tarnish the image of the new exco. I sought to understand his position, and he was brave enough, as chief editor of TOC, to publicly declare his position. Readers ought to have taken the cue from there.
Zheng Xi does not have to apologize for standing firm on something he believed strongly in although there is a danger for someone in his position to publicly take such a stand and I did warned him about it. But then again, it was a risk, a calculated risk he was willing to take. Kudos to him, we were able to bring forth the true mechanisms that went into the takeover process.
As for the letter addressed to the ministers, I had read it on Facebook and I thought it was the work of one young kid who behaves as if he has his candy floos snatched away from him. It is laughable, to say the least. But still, it was cause for concern, especially when no one knew exactly how things would pan out.
Anyway, toward the latter half of the saga, TOC did try to balance things out and kudos to the TOC team. You have shown that you are flexible, always learning, and making adjustments along the way. This augurs well for active citizen-participation, especially in blogosphere. Job well done TOC.
#9 SL
I agree with you.
Just that for eg ST’s editor do not (I hope and believe) use their position to take sides to write something for public fodder based on their own personal likes and dislikes to whip out public sentiments whatsoever. This is common sense professionalism.
So its TOC ‘a personal web blog’ or as it claimed ‘a community for Singaporeans’ or a ‘community for slected Singaporeans’ ??
Terence (#11),
“Just that for eg ST’s editor do not (I hope and believe) use their position to take sides to write something for public fodder based on their own personal likes and dislikes to whip out public sentiments whatsoever.”
Which planet are you living on? If u wanna cite examples, at least don’t cite that piece of useless rag called the Straits Times. Do you know who their political desk editor is? Go find out and then maybe you will not say what you just did.
And do you know who the chief editor of ST is? Or their Life section editor?
Do you even read Sumiko Tan’s pieces?
So, is ST a personal paper?
And do you know the difference between an opinion piece written by a writer or an op-ed or editorial? Tsk tsk tsk.
i believe TOC Chief Editor indicated that TOC is on the side of the old guards. And they run a number of editorials clearly supporting the old guards and so on and so forth. I believe they also claim and rightly so it is their blog therefore as such they have to propagate a belief they stand for. As such if if you do not like it then dont contribute to this blog. They have already right from the start declare their interests. Correct me if i am wrong TOC!
Hi Socrates,
Please differentiate between a writer’s commentary an op-ed and an editorial piece. That’s all I am saying. While you may find TOC is biased in its reporting, it is counter-balanced by bias writing at The Christian Post. To each of his own.
Socrates, I admire your comments. It shows a high level of understanding you have when participating in a discourse hosted by an online blogsite. Your comment is one of maturity, to say the least, and you are doing justice to the name – Socrates.
I say this because a few of us, yourself included, came under relentless bashings from pro-old guard supporters. I believe also that some of our comments never saw the light of day – but we take all these in our strides. We understand that a platform such as TOC is the best thing that has ever happened to Singapore for the longest time.
Personally, I also felt that the coverage, although better than any coverage we got from MSM, could have been better. There were numerous side-developments that were not picked up along the way.
An example, when MOE chanced upon the old guard’s excuse, and used it for their own, that they found nothing wrong with the CSE programme AWARE had been running for the last two years because there were no complaints, TOC failed to pick up the fact that MOE works on complaints from the public.
Is this reflective of our government institutions and statutory boards? That they take action only when there are complaints? Is this why we are always being accused of being a ‘Complain Nation’? No wonder Singaporeans are complaining, because it is the only way to get things done.
Another event that went unnoticed was the admission of SM to SGH for chicken pox. Correct me if I am wrong, but does one need to be admitted for a week because of chicken pox? It would mean a whole ward to himself, which also means, depriving others from being admitted – for one whole week already – because it is being used by one who has chicken pox. I thought mere mortals would stay at home to recover when they are down with chicken pox.
Other than these, I think TOC was right to champion the cause of the old-guards, especially with the saga unfolding the way it did. But the same cannot be said when things were heating up and everyone was taking sides. TOC did well to bring across some balanced reporting toward the latter half of the saga. This was clearly underlined by the many postings of some very inflammatory comments from supporters of the then new exco. TOC could have conveniently disallowed these but it did not, to its credit.
I applaud TOC in this discourse. I dun think they stop anyone writing in support to new AWARE or any anti-gay comments. It is up to the posters to write about it.
It is a free platform to air your views unlike some media we know that likes to sensationalise somethin but have narrow OB markers.
For all those Christians with a persecution complex, TOC has never claimed to be a totally neutral site/reporting from a purely objective point of view (see citation). There are alternative sites if you wish to seek an affirmative point of view.
Also, see the first part of my previous sentence for an example of a subjective opinion wholly attributed to me (TOC did not force me to type this at gunpoint).
Citation:
http://theonlinecitizen.com/about/
“Another event that went unnoticed was the admission of SM to SGH for chicken pox.”
He just might using taxmoney for his hospital stay, if stay at home cannot claim medical cost and lu-ki out. Even how small the peanut is, he also must eat.
The vocal, loud, boorish will always win. But the silent never loose.
Also I am reminded in the poem, ‘Desiderata’ , was stated ‘avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the spirit’.
Good job, TOC, most admiration of your site is no”HYPOCRISY”.
My suggestion to you, be firm, do not let other steer you astray….. god bless you…
actually, i tink TOC is not bad already….wayang party’s posts are much more inflammatory against christians or those against-their-views people…including their own admin adding oil to the fire
It being many many weeks since I last click into TOC, but my friends had just alerted me to my letter addressed to TOC being posted.
I can only say that if TOC think that my letter to them was about child-play and empty threats…its fine! And I do want to congratulate TOC for having undoubtedly and successfully used the AWARE saga to position itself as a full-fledged GLBTs’ site.
You have no more credibility as far as trying to be an alternative media in Singapore is concerned, and yes, you can still seek refuge and support from your meager supporters of GLBT, but a big majority of the mainstream public (whether or not they are supporters of PAP) knows of the kind of stand you’ve made, and the kind of underlying efforts TOC are scheming and cooking up to divide Singapore’s society!
The positive things that came up from all your biased reporting and support for GLBTs were helping the mainstream to wake-up and realized that PAP is ultimately, still the only one who will stand up against the devious GLBTs’ movements in Singapore, and all now know that PAP is perhaps, the only one who will fight for maintaining the mainstream lifestyle and “One Man, One Woman” family values.
Come to think of it, it was so brilliant of PAP to strategically make use of alternative media like TOC and WayangParty to awaken the mainstream public of who they can ultimately count on to live a complete and natural life experience, and to continue to bring out their children in the same framework!
TOC had shot itself on the foot at the beginning of the AWARE saga, and now, it can shoot itself on the head with the announcements and official clarifications made by the government.
TOC is unqualified at all to call itself “A Community of Singaporeans”…it can only call itself “A Community of Singapore Gays and Lesbians”.
I think TOC should be more Secular and should not post anything about Religious Gps Vs Gay Gps!
Cause Religion Got “NO SOLUTIONS” !
22) Song Heng Khow on May 15th, 2009 10.13 am
Looking at Buay Song’s rants I only hope that the contents do not represent mainstream Singapore in terms of logic and reason (or lack thereof) not to mention grammar and syntax.
Ah Song also forgot to mention that another positive thing that came out was the enrichment of our collective vocabulary – words like “steeplejacking” and one that particularly comes to mind, when we see all these rants coming from people called “angry parents” “concerned parents” (*snicker*), “astroturfing”.
In fact I think TOC is bending over backwards in giving these nutcases so much space to claim that they represent the “mainstream public” and to give illogical arguments and rants. Funny isn’t it – how they claim they hate TOC and the bias, but them come and read and post so much. Then again, logic is never the strong point of the bigoted and the astroturfers.
“and all now know that PAP is perhaps, the only one who will fight for maintaining the mainstream lifestyle”
Oh really?
http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/05/aware-saga-calm-down-and-move-on-says-dpm-wong-kan-seng/
“full-fledged GLBTs’ site. ”
Articles about retiring folks, HDB, Mas Selemat, NTU suicide, Economic opinions
These do not fit to GLBT criteria, I hope you’re objective enough to recognise this
“devious GLBTs’ movements in Singapore”
I have no religion, but i do respect the boundaries of each
nor will i condemn another as DEVIOUS.
I wonder if you’re cracking the 3 stress lines,”scheming and cooking up to divide Singapore’s society! ”
Read about hitler and his concentration camps, where humanity failed and pain was suffered.He marginalized polish, gays, russians,austrians and all others. There were many innocent sufferers just because they were marginalized for who they are. I doubt any secular society or religious leader, should encourage or want this to occur again
Live and let live, be responsible for all our comments, TOC will be a fine place.
Editors, i do miss Mr. Leong Sze Hian’s numberical logic and articles.
Song quote:
I am not from a Christian group, but from a grassroots organization (we have members from all religions and nationalities) that believes in the wholesome upbringing of Singapore children, and we will not allow sites like TOC to shamelessly support gays and lesbians at the expense of the majority of Singaporeans who treasured true family values.
==========================================================
Very strong words, Mr Song. Why not take another step by stating which grassroots organization you affiliated with?
Honestly, I don’t care whether you are a Christian, a father, a straight guy or a PAP grassroots member? please don’t drag others like myself (majority of Singaporeans) into your argument with TOC stance on this AWARE saga.
The fact that you used the gays and lesbians labelling on people shown up a defective bias personality character in yourself, let alone giving yourself the moral rights to criticize others. All I seen them as one of us, a fellow human being, who deserve to be respected as a human person first before personality or sexuality indifference.
My point is speak for yourself, used I or me, don’t used the words “majority of Singaporeans” as your backing. For sure, I’m one of the majority of Singaporeans who subscribed and treasured true “family values”, who will definitely reject anyone who wanted to lead astray of my children in their sexuality awareness. I don’t agreed with your words or actions in this matter, not unless you want to label me now as a minority since I opposed your views.
For your information, I did once bashed up an “ah qua” who was too touchy with me. Trust me, if another “ah qua” try to do the same on me today, I will bash him up too without hesitation. If and when, whoever try to lead astray my kids, I will advise them (GLBT) to be careful, lest I bash them up. In the meantime, I will take the same opportunity to educate my kids as well, talking to them of the do’s and don’t's. That, I believe will be more productive in saving our own kids than you Mr Song going around labelling people and accusing others of being pro-GLBT.
BTW, why I asked which grassroots organization you came from, was just a friendly understanding for those who are truly gays and lesbians, to know which organization that they mustn’t visit or seek help from, since you most likely to reject them for you have your tinted glasses on, while working as a altruistic(?) social worker or volunteer(?) in your organization.
In short, speak for yourself, Mr Song!
religious organisations want to get involved in politics and social activism but do not want people to say that they are doing like that. why is it like that? have the guts to do so let’s stop pretending you are not doing it. hypocrisy at its maximum.
“actually, i tink TOC is not bad already….wayang party’s posts are much more inflammatory against christians or those against-their-views people…including their own admin adding oil to the fire”
want to hijack? but cannot tahan the backlash. sore losers. all around us we see atheists, other religions and other races, even the NCCS head and fellow xtians with nothing but strong criticism for the aware takeover. what does this show? we do not tolerate religious extremists. it’s surprising with thio su mien is not sitting in whitney detention center togehter with that mas selamat.
the “Concerned Citizen” is only concerned about COOS reputation going down the drain.
i also wonder why TSM & Co are in in ISD cells, with their intellectual powers combined, they are more dangerous than a limping MSK!!
29) mice is nice on May 22nd, 2009 1.43 am
No point lah, you forgot their spiritual powers – they would probably levitate out of there faster than MSK could climb through the toilet window and then fly across the Straits.
dr thio healed her followers of cancer and other ailments
http://www.coos.org.sg/saviourtimes/st2006/st_2006octdec.pdf
dr thio also knew beforehand the earthquake/tsunami that killed thousands in phuket, malaysia and indonesia and prayed for singapore to be spared. indeed singapore was not struck by the earthquake/tsunami!
http://www.elijahlist.com/words/display_word.html?ID=2997
she has done a lot for singapore but singaporeans are a bunch of ingrates.
sigh, all the religious fox tails appear in the comments liao
wish TOC remains secular.
31) jonathan on May 22nd, 2009 10.36 am
Wow, Jonny, that is so impressive – imagine, she could actually move Sumatra up to block the tsunami – plse ask her to pray for the SIngapore football team to make it to the next football World Cup finals as well. Believe me, Singaporeans will be grateful except gays who don’t care about football and Lee Bee Wah who will be jealous.
HT, Dr Thio Su Mien is a mother figure who cares for Singaporeans. She prayed to avert the tsunami disaster for the sake of singaporeans and was noble enough to stand up against homosexuals and pro-choice forces rallying for support from the government. Homosexuals cannot be tolerated. There is no neutral stance in dealing with moral issues like homosexuality and abortion.
Unfortunately, Dr Thio was not given a chance to prove herself in the new AWARE. The crowd at the OGM booed and deprived her of the chance to complete her inspiriing speech. Certainly $90,000 spent had been inflated by the old guard eager to seize back their organization. $90,000 is nothing compared to the magnitude of love and compassion she showed to the people. She can easily disburse out this amount and does not need to hanker after such a tiny sum. Dr Thio was never a person of greed and avarice as MSM made her out to be.
Dr Thio has healed the hearts and minds of many – she is a beacon of hope in the midst of despair and mindless capitalism. She deserves better from singaporeans and from TOC. She is misunderstood and please respect her as someone who is merely doing her bit for singapore.
Hi Catfight #34,
Can you justify why issues such as homosexuality and abortion should be moralised? Is it because the Bible says so?
Let’s not persecute homosexuals or christians. And please, stop your self-persecution complex too.
Life begins when at conception. God forbids us from tampering with the sanctity of life. Any form of abortion means a life is lost. Homosexuals (effeminates) are never included in His kingdom. The Bible urges us to pursue the path of the righteous and to teach others what is right and wrong.
If you see a con man cheating a housewife, will you not warn the housewife and put up posters that the con man is dangerous?
34) catfight on May 22nd, 2009 10.00 pm
Your very interesting post raises several points.
Firstly, aren’t homosexuals and pro-choice people Singaporeans too (at least those who are citizens)? If so, why can’t they be tolerated? So what do we do – round them up and banish them all to Sentosa or what the heck, just put them in the gas chambers.
Secondly, moral issues – whose morals? Yours or mine? Are you shoving your morals in my face? Please bear in mind that what may be moral issues to you may not be to me and what I deem as immoral (such as belief without reason) may be perfectly moral to you.
Thirdly – you said she wasn’t able to speak at the EGM but you know that it was an inspiring speech? I am confused. How can a speech that was not even spoken be inspiring? That’s really zen. Or is zen bad for morals too?
Fourthy – the amount of $90,000 was given by Maureen not by the so-called old guard. So its not the old guard inflating the figure. Remember what some holy guy said a few thousand years ago? Something like thou shalt not lie. That a moral too, isn’t it? And if it is nothing to Mdm Thio, sure, she can refund the money to Aware can’t she?
I don’t pretend to know the motivations of the FM and I don’t want to get into a slanging match about her. Suffice it to say that I certainly don’t agree with you.
Too bad, TOC shot themselves in the foot due to friendship.
Big mistake, otherwise would have gain more credibility as alternative voice, now many people are suspcious and wary. People are not stupid and blind and not aware what is going on in TOC, obvious biasness and one sided reporting blah blah blah …. please lah, wake up lah.
Already many people are silently boycotting Straits Times, i think they should also be silent boycotting TOC too.
1 wrong move and everything goes down under, too bad, better luck next time, happy slow rebuilding, not sure when TOC regains lost ground, good luck any way, next time, use your brain and not use emotions, friendly good advice, hope you get it, cheers baby :),
er, I don’t care if you don’t bother printing this cos I am silently boycotting TOC as well as Straits Times.
catfight, not that i want to point out smth.
True, a child is always a child, a life that should be born. I believe in that.
However, i believe that everyone has a choice. And for parents, they should be the ones making the choice. For a rape victim who finds herself pregnant with her rapist’s child, to let the child live is a constant reminder of her fear, her helplessness and her hate for the man.
What if the mother takes out her helplessness on the child? Wouldn’t that be worse for the child? A child deserves every bit of love and being born into a life where he/she is hated for smth that was not his/her fault is tantamount to torturing the child no?
Take a girl who gets pregnant before her life begins. teen pregnancies are one of them. How does the mother support her child if she herself cannot support it?
The right to abortion in my opinion, is the lesser evil.
A child deserves all rights to have a fruitful, happy life with a family that can takecare of him/her.
To force a mother to give birth to an unwanted child is really unfair.
btw, being homosexual does not mean that you should be subjected to less rights than a heterosexual.
Discrimination is always still discrimination, no matter what your God says. If God had not meant to let it be, then there wouldn’t be any homosexuals around now would there?
Also, i would think that your God is someone who forgives and forgets. So your argument that homosexuals are not allowed in His Kingdom means you yourself decide to play God?
Dear Catfight,
I am a Christian but I denounce entirely your short post and the message you tried to bring across. The following comments must be taken in a Christian context. Those of you who do not know or understand Christianity – this is not for you.
You began your comment well enough by stating something that is very obviously Christian – that life begins at conception. I too believe in this and the sanctity of it, certainly not to tamper with it. By using the word ‘life’ you are in fact refering to the soul of a human being (not the human being) that is precious and must not be tampered with.
Now that we know the diffirence between the soul and the person, and in the Christian context, the soul is above the physical being, and the whole idea of Christianity is to save the soul. For example, Mary Magdelene was a prostitute but that did not change the fact the her soul was what Jesus wanted to save because it is by saving the soul (with love) that she can give up her sinful profession.
Likewise in the case of homosexuals. Do you see their souls or their physical beings, trapped in a situation where people like you are claiming to be sinful? Even if it is sinful, it then becomes your job as a Christian to love them so that by your love, santifying grace may be showered on them, so that they may come to a realisation of the Christian love and perhaps seek to understand it, and subsequently be saved.
So it is very wrong to say that the Kingdom of God has no place for homosexuals. This is very unChristian because heaven is for all because no one knows the degree of mercy, compassion and love of God. This is how a Christian ought to pursue a path of righteousness and by the living of the Christian love, you can then hope to correct the ‘sinful’ ways of the temporal world.
A true Christian will never condemn another human being, because within that human being dwells a soul which is precious to the Maker of life, a homosexual soul is no different to a heterosexual soul – it is the practice of homosexuality that is sinful – a sin much like any sin – because sin is ultimately, separation from God.
re Catfight,
if $90000 is nothing in your own words, why not make a financial contribution to Aware? its easy for you to say since the lost is not yours. why did she not disburse that amount then? her puppets raided the kitty.
Dr Thio is not even in Aware’s Exco, what is there to prove? her puppets have already proven thy are not up to the task with no concrete plans after taking over. they just wanted to justify their selfserving ends, they were never interested in advocacy work.
you seem to know Dr Thio rather well, her finances that is. she should have formed her own advocacy group if she had the mettle & financial capabilities. she’s just a paranoid (anti-GLBT) war-monger.
Wah, catfight – you sure all homosexuals are effeminate?
I think you got to open your eyes big big – they are just like us – one could just pass you by, be your colleague, relative or a family member…
For someone who’s supposed to spread the love around, you sure seem quick to judge (and condemn)…