Saturday, May 2, 2009 14:04
More than a thousand turn up for Aware EOGM
In Main Stories, Top Story • 8,384 views • 313 Comments
Announcement: TOC’s videos of the event at Suntec City will be up on TOC soon. It includes an interview with Constance Singam. Stay tuned!
BREAKING NEWS: The Old Guards of Aware have managed to gain majority support for their vote of no confidence in the new executive committee. The results of the vote is 1,414 in support of the vote, while 761 voted against it.
—
New exco urges members to give a huge round of applause to outgoing exco (Josie’s committee).
New EOGM Chairperson Zaibu Siraj and NEW exco stand onstage and says to cheering audience: “Without you, the new exco would not be onstage.” You are brilliant! I thank everybody on behalf of the new Exco and the past presidents.” I am grateful to everyone of you, to create history in Singapore, to see civil society restored. And more importantly to see that the right voice of women has a place in Singapore.”
New President Dana Lam: “You know what’s the best thing today? Today we saw we have so many smart, witty, and gorgeous women in Singapore!” This win has been a win for the whole of civil society in Singapore. Singaporeans from near and far have come together to support the cause. Thank you.
Dana reassures the members: “We will work together to make the association even better.”
—-
In a dramatic turn of event, Josie Lau’s committee is back!
Josie Lau: “We note the outcome of no confidence. The exco has decided to graciously step down and the team hopes that AWARe will return to its original roots in the Constitution”.
—
NEW EXCO VOTED IN (we apologize if the names are spelled wrongly – we’ll change them when we receive confirmation)
Dana Lam voted in as President of AWARE.
Chew I Jin nominated by Poonan and seconded by Braema Mathi for the post of “Vice President”. Chew I Jin is voted in as Vice President of AWARE.
Honorary Secretary Yap Chang Wi
Corrina Lim voted in as Assistant Honorary Secretary.
Honorary Treasurer – Tan Jun Hin.
Assistant Treasurer – Lim Xiaoyun
Committee members: Joanna Decruz, Hafizah Osman, Margaret Thomas, Nancy Griffiths and two others
—
No one from the current exco (Josie Lau and colleagues) turned up by 8.50pm.
Zaibu Siraj is voted in as chairperson.
Motion of removal was proposed and seconded by many members of audience. Those who are against the motion (by having the entire current exco removed and to hereby elect a new exco) were told to raise their hands. There were 2 people opposing this motion – and motion was proclaimed carried.
—
The new exco is “on their way back” from deliberation. Another 5 minutes of deliberation will be extended to them. Braema apologizes if they appear “a bit silly” – by making pronouncements and going back on pronoucements – but qualifies that they are “trying to be kind”. Members, legal counsel and all have been notified that the new exco has until 8.50pm to return. It is 8.42pm now.
—
“ON behalf of the 160 members, I declare that by their conduct and action, we declare that the current exco – the new exco – has indeed resigned.” says Braema Mathi, to cheering crowds. “And now we’ll take our seats and go to the next level”, which is to vote in the next committee.
—
Whereabouts of the new exco appear unknown – the legal counsel is also trying to contact the current exco.
—-
Braema Mathi calling for Josie Lau and Maureen Ong and Lois Ng and the rest of the exco to come back and take their place on stage. The new exco has taken more than 15 minutes – till now – to deliberate, after the vote of no confidence.
—-
New guards leaves to consider resignation. Old guard will move motion of removal if they don’t resign. After the conclusion of removal, old guards will run another election to elect another exco.
—-
Old guards giving new exco time to step down.
—-
Old guards asking new guards to step down. New guards (namely Josie Lau) saying the motion might not be binding.
—–
Results:
1,414 votes in support of no confidence in the current exco.
761 votes not in support of no confidence in current exco.
The hall is going crazy with the audience screaming and shouting and cheering.
—–
Results of no confidence vote is about to be announced.
—–
Director of HOME, the organisation for migrant workers, Bridget Lew, says moral leadership and the “spirit of Christ” is to embrace all. “Do not takeover an organisation using the letter of the law.” The crowd gives her a standing ovation.
——
Counting of votes is still on-going.
—–
Braema Mathi says her dismissal was without any “due manners, due process” and also the dissolution of the CEDAW committee. Sally Ang, new exco, said Braema Mathi did not submit draft of CEDAW report to her when “it’s due”. Braema responded by saying that “we’re not late, not inefficient” and that Sally Ang’s words were “significantly defamatory”. She added that the report was not due until 2010 but that Josie Lau had disbanded the CEDAW sub-committee.
—–
Braema Mathi was not sacked from her position in Aware, says new exco. She had not submitted the draft shadow report as requested by the new exco. Braema Mathi, however, says she did respond and asked for a meeting with the new exco and that she also offered to submit a “verbal report” which was rejected by the new exco. Braema Mathi was in charge of the CEDAW project.
—–
A member of Aware, in the audience, says never in her life has she ever been told to “shut up and sit down” and she’s appalled that in a grown-up setting, one exco member could shout this. “Today is the time to stand up and speak up, “she said, “not shut up and sit down.”
—–
Results of vote of no confidence to be out shortly. Constance Singam is told results will be out soon. She urges members to take “result in good spirit” and that there should be a “good ending, whicever way.”
—–
Legal counsel to new exco says the general meeting must agree to exco’s expenses for the year by secret ballot.
—–
An academic on feminist theories, a member of the audience, says to the new exco: You cannot speak for one marginalised group, eg. women, if you exclude all others on the grounds of race, religion, linguistic orientation, sexuality orientation.” She went on to say that internatinal human rights activists have high regards for (old) Aware, which has been “chipping away like woodpeckers to make a dent.” “Please don’t undermine its international credibility by your thoughtless actions.”
—–
Maureen Ong estimates total cost for the new exco’s one month in office to be $100,000. audience members point out constitution which only authorises exco to spend up to $20,000. Audience members call for exco to reimburse the excess out of their own pocket.
—–
Maureen Ong, new exco, says the “rough estimate” for the total cost of holding today’s event is $90,000, which include the cost for engaging security personnel, sound system, etc.
—–
Results on the vote of no confidence expected to be out soon. Stay tuned.
—–
“We are passionate about our values,” shouts an audience member. “Do you see passion in the faces of the new exco?”
——
Josie Lau says “circumstances” had forced the move to a new venue and that the exco had “discretion” to decide on this. She said it would have taken too long to seek members’ permission.
—–
“You are ultra-vires to constitution by spending more than $20,000″, old guard member who pioneered the Aware legal clinic.
—–
—-
Maureen Ng, new exco, explains that the Expo, which was the original venue for the meeting, rejected their application because the Aware membership was more than 2,000. She reveals that the booking of the “only location” suitable was at Suntec City and that it costs $18,000 to rent the hall. In total, it costs $85,000 to hold today’s event. “We have to find a venue to accomodate all members,” she says.
—-
Audience is demanding to know how much is being spent on the EOGM at Suntec City. The exco is not answering, not revealing how much it is spending. The Aware constitution says that if it’s more than $20,000, the members’ agreement will have to be sought. Crowd is shouting “Answer! Answer!” One person has been escorted out of the hall by the police for shouting and asking about how much it costs to book the exhinbition hall at Suntec for today’s meeting.
—-
Josie Lau says she was under the impression that she would be working with Constance Singam and Claire Nazar when she joined Aware.
Josie Lau clarifies but denies that she knows the other exco members intimately. She’s addressing some issues which have been raised, such as the lock change.
—-
The meeting is adjourned for 10 minutes.
—-
There’s wrangling over some constitutional amendments which the new guards want to put to the vote.
—-
Counting of votes in progress now.
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Ballot papers are being collected.
—-
Voting has begun.
—-
The vote is expected to be a landslide win for the old guards, judging by the overwhelming support for them among the audience.
—-
Proposer and seconder for the resolution on the vote of no confidence being asked for. Vote to begin shortly.
—-
Thio Su Mien calls herself a”lion-hearted pioneer”. She asks the audience to “respect your elders”. She explains that the reason she calls herslf a “feminist mentor” was because she was studied in a book which mentioned her. (It’s unclear what she actually said as the audience was shouting and screaming at her as she spoke.) The audience effectively shouted Thio Su Mien down.
—-
Audience jeers at Thio Su Mien.
—-
Thio Su Mien is called to speak.
—-
Haifzah, a new Aware member: “Where is the diversity?… [You] represent one race, one faith and most worship at the same church.”
—-
Josie Lau asks for right of reply to accusations, otherwise it is “undemocratic”, she says.
—-
Constance Singam: “Trust, respect and honour the achievements of past members. “Where were you when parents were confronted with work life issues… where were yo when women were being battered? Where were you?” The audience chants, “Where were you? Where were you?”
—-
New member who asked the audience to give new exco a chance is jeered. Irene Ang, an actress, asks how the new exco can claim to be “fighting for women’s right but after a few days you fire a woman?”
—-
Braema Mathi, old guard Aware: “Even today, we are chided like children…. 100 per cent sorry to say that you are not the right representatives.” She says she’s disappointed with several things, as mentioned by Dana Lam, including switching off the microphone in the audience. The audience is increasingly agitated.
—-
Dana Lam, old guard and former president of Aware, to the new exco: “[You have] dismissed long serving personnel, dismissed long serving volunteers who are experts in their fields, and obsessed over the security of the centre. You have instructed vendors to change the locks at night.”
—-
Discussions have now turned to the technicalities of conducting the vote of no cofidence, which is believed to start soon. The hall is noisy, with many screaming, cheering, jeering, clapping even as the speeches take place.
—–
Old guard member and lawyer, Halijah, disagrees with new exco’s lawyer. She says in Article 9 of the Aware constitution that if members have no confidence in the exco, the exco should step down.
—–
Legal counsel for the new exco is speaking now. He says the constitution does not “expressly” give grounds for the eogm to remove the exco. He also said a vote of no confidence is not legally binding. The meeting continues.
—–
Josie Lau ends speech. Margaret Thomas moves item on the vote of no confidence up on the agenda.
—-
Josie Lau asks for a chance for the new exco to carry out its programmes and to prove itself.
Josie Lau continues her speech on Aware’s history. She says Aware will “review the CSE curriculum”. CSE is the Comprehensive Sex Education programme. She is showing a chart of Aware’s membership which, she says, has “increased exponentially”. She revealed there are now 3,000 members of Aware as of yesterday. She says Aware is neither anti-gay or or anti-anybody. “We are a secular society.” She says religion should not be an issue in the current dispute. “For homosexual women, we will provide support for their emotional needs. They will speak to a counsellor, and it will remain secular.” She said Aware is willing for counsellors to discuss legal rights including the issue of abortion. “We maintain an open-door policy,” she says.
—
Audience member tells TOC, “Good god! It’s mad in here.” Some members are standing up and screaming and waving.
Margaret Thomas, old guard, called for a point of order. “Josie, you’ve exceeded your 3 mins.” New exco member shouts at Margaret Thomas, “Shut up and sit down.” Crowd jeers. Exco member apologises. Josie Lau apologises as well. Josie Lau trying to get the audience to calm down.
—-
A photographer has been asked to step out of the hall for not observing “house rules”.
“I, as president, cannot allow anyone to disrupt my meeting,” said Josie Lau. Audience members are going up to the microphone to speak and even to shout at her. Braema Mathi of the old guards is speaking now. She wants to get on with the agenda and said that it is only fair that they get to say what Aware is supposed to be about.
—-
Crowd chanting for the microphone in the hall to be turned on. Jenica Chua and Josie Lau warned that unruly people will be escorted out of the hall by security.
—-
Josie Lau, president of Aware, giving speech.
—-
Old guards asks audience to be calm. “We shall be calm, we shall be dignified.” Latest figures puts the audience at 2,000.
—-
Josie Lau’s self-introduction met with loud boos and cheers. She asked for order and for the audience not to interrupt her speech. The crowd chants “vote-of-no-confidence”.
The Extraordinary General Meeting of Aware, being held at Suntec City has gotten underway, at about 2.20pm. Originally scheduled to start at 2pm, it was delayed because of the large number of people who have turned up. There are 1,500 ordinary members and 250 associate members in the hall. Mr Siew Kum Hong was asked to move to the associate members’ section of the room. The crowd booed. Mr Siew is the legal advisor to the old guards. The old guards have asked for him to be present as the new guards too have their legal advisor with them.
The EOGM, which was scheduled to begin at 2pm, has now been delayed because of the huge number of people who have turned up. Mediacorp actress Patricia Mok and Chua Enlai have also been spotted among the audience. Ms Mok declined to be interviewed by TOC.
A minor incident took place when staff from the new guards asked some people queueing in the registration line to leave. It is unclear what the reason was. Supporters of the old guards of Aware protested. It seems to be resolved now.
TOC understands that no more registration for new members will be entertained and only old members and existing members are being admitted into the hall.
—–
Hundreds of people have turned up for the Aware EOGM at Suntec City. The queue for registration from Hall 402 at level four is snaking all the way to level three. Many more are arriving, some in groups. There are 1,300 ordinary members and 200 associate members who have arrived.
There are currently about 700 people who are inside the hall. University undergrad Tan Peiling, 23, is one of them. She says she is there to root for the old guards as she feels the way the new exco “took power” was not very “civilised”. The majority of those present are women, among whom are now Thio Su Mien, the self-professed “feminist mentor” and Constance Singam, the former president of Aware.
The police is also present inside the hall.
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313 Comments
Thanks for the fast updates. One of the picture may be off..the 1st one. Check it.
anon
“Mr Siew Kum Hong was asked to move to the associate members’ section of the room. The crowd booed.”
could you clarify:
is the booing directed at Mr Siew? Or is it to protest him being asked to move?
josh
Well done TOC for covering this so well. Our stupid msm seems not to have anything at all…
smallvice585
Did the New Guards end membership registration when all their supporters have registered?
My gosh, it sounds pretty awful. The atmosphere is definitely too charged. I think supporters of both sides ought to calm down.
Are there any estimates, based on such cheering/jeering responses, of the size of either sides?
Steven
Photographers not allowed? How will the public know whats going on there?
Everyone start whipping out your handphone cameras!
laughingoutloud
For goodness sake, Josie Lau…just step down to save yourself from more embarrassment. I wonder why DBS can tolerate its employee’s (VP) involvement is such kind of mess. Does she have time to focus on delivering results for her bank when so much is required to prepare for the EGM and perhaps more to come ?? She has the duty to protect her employer’s reputation and this in not the first time she tarnished DBS’ name. In most corporate organizations (esp non-Singapore based), she would have been fired much earlier. I don’t see her performance as excellent in DBS because I had given up my DBS CC long time back due to its poor services and lack of attractive promotional offerings.
observer
Thanks, TOC for covering this so far. Excellent job! You guys really fill in the gap left by ST.
More updates please!
It would be ideal if the updates had timestamps.
but anyhow, great work TOC!
singaaware
How can there be a vote-of-no-confidence on an exco which has not been given a chance to perform when Old Guards did not face one in their 24 years of under-performance?
singaaware
so many male-looking persons in the audience. are they guy, gay or what? nowadays, you just can’t tell, esp. if they are AWARE members. LOL.
Ahgong
why not? as long you have enough member to support the vote of no confidence, the new EXCO taught us this right? :)
Haha, AWARE has never been so active before. They should collect tickets money and sell keropok , pop corn, soft drink and even clappers over at the suntec.
smallvice585
Wah.. so many men turned up to see cat fight.. typical Singaporean man some more.. wear so lok kok.. This is supposed to be Suntec City, not Geylang Lorong 12…
singaaware, again you and your suspicious mind. So what they are man. This issue is now more than just woman issue. I support the old team, and i am a father of 2, with my son beside me now trying to understand some human behaviour.
Doublespeak
This is a significant moment in Singapore’s history. People are showing up, supporting and standing up for their beliefs in huge groups.
Women’s activism has also taken a boost.
I think there’s a blessing in disguise, no matter the outcome.
Mr E
so exciting
chun chuan
why not have twitter feed instead?
Chee Ky
yes, smallvice and singaware, i can’t figure out in first picture if person in red shirt is a fat guy or a pregnant woman.
Old BC
All got nothing better to do?? By the way, what is this about? So its between pro-homo or anti-homo or what?? I see most people are anti-homo. Maybe Gahmen would do the neccessary soon. If not, people would behave like dogs.
Thks TOC for updating us on the happenings at the EOGM. I am not with any sides but is concern abt what each side is trying to influence our society through their beliefs and orgn’s platforms.
Now, more people are aware of what is going on and I think this is certainly good for the shaping of our society into a better place for our younger generations.
David
For the sake of all Singapore christians, Josie should step down because every minutes passed, every image of this group of peole and their beilef became diluted. She should stop mocking at their faith by holding on to something that belongs to every races and religions. and every Singaporean. Get lost robbers!
Julian
Good work, TOC. Hope you will have a video for us later – this is history in the making!
Chee Ky
for those of us who can’t be there, this is a godsend. thanks TOC…. but my mother and sisters are there….hi mum! hi sis! :)…. it’s nice to know that Josie Lau will offer “secular” counselling to lesbians and women considering abortion…. very generous (sure, sure)… my mum thinks that lesbians need fashion counsellors but she also thinks that those COOS types need mental health counsellors … hey, maybe the AWARE can sponsor seminars at Woodbridge on obsessive-compulsive disorders like religious mania and homophobia
SpeedWeed
you are free to have your private beliefs!
if you come out of your closet and resort to underhanded tactics to promote your causes, be prepared for people to attack your beliefs!
Go back into your closet and no one will bother you!
singaaware
ah kow,
at the end of this, your sons will be ruffians. that is what many in the audience are.
singaaware
Those Old Guards should retire. After 24 years, they have done anything notable. Now they create a mess.
shocking
23) singaaware on May 2nd, 2009 4.20 pm ah kow,
at the end of this, your sons will be ruffians. that is what many in the audience are
==========================================
better thanh being a taliban xtians
Chee Ky
singaaware, i beg you to browse the pages of the ST Discussion Forums…. there you can see what ruffians and bullies and haters YOUR sons are
singaaware
Chee KY,
What are u talking about? My sons in the ST Discussion Forums?
I can see ruffians, female ones mostly, in the meeting right now.
Curious
11) singaaware on May 2nd, 2009 3.31 pm
1″How can there be a vote-of-no-confidence on an exco which has not been given a chance to perform when Old Guards did not face one in their 24 years of under-performance?”
That is correct. The call for the EGM was made because the old guards were IMO poor losers but I am glad it has an unexpected positive result as the dispute has nudged more women to take a stand in societal issues and be aware!
Also note that in article 9 of AWARE’s constitution, though it says that the exco which has lost the confidence of the members “SHOULD” resign, this is not mandatory, otherwise it would read “MUST RESIGN” according to AWARE’s lawyer.
Article 9 is non binding unlike in parliament where if a ruling party loses a vote of no confidence then it must dissolve parliament and call for a general election.
But IMO the old guard can still table a resolution for a vote of no confidence in the new exco in the “any other business” segment of the meeting if proper notice was given and if the members agree to such a resolution be held today and satisfy some bruised egos!
Therefore ,I say let the new Exco get on with the job and let history be the judge.
So far it has raised the membership number from a paltry 300 last year under the old guard to 3000 today ! If this is not progress then I don’t know what is !
Interesting that Dr Thio Su Mien mentioned about “respecting your elders”. Really wonder if she was also directing the comment to folks like me in particular. After all, my write-ups at The Kent Ridge Common are mainly negative opinions about her and her mentees.
Sincerely yours
untilproven
Who allege that ” fellow Christians who want to impose the values and views of the Christian Right Movement on everyone”? Did the new exco says so or the old guard insinuate such ulterior motives or the newspapers hinted at such motives?
Let say I accuse you that based on religious belief and background that you want to impose your values and views on certain projects right after you are promoted or elected to a certain position without you been given a chance to set out agenda or direction, is it fair that you are condemned by your religious background?
Compare what the old guards have proven in their sexual education programme. The evidence speaks loud and clear and undeniable while all others are just allegations and accusations on new exco, obviously very bitchy tactics by old guards of Aware.
Chee Ky
Singaaware…. of course i was using the plural “your”…. for all the COOS-type sons and daughters that mob the ST discussion forums with insults, obscenities, hatred, and disrespect for everyone… bad parenting maybe
sllim
If Josie was trying to take credit for the exponential increase i nmembership, I reckon she’s right.
singaaware #28,
Too bad your genes are heritable. Why must science be so damn neutral?
observ
If the old guards win the vote of no confidence, and the supporters of the new exco leaves AWARE as members … if that happens, will AWARE become sort of a pro-gay & pro-lesbian club ?
#8) laughingoutloud
‘ Does she have time to focus on delivering results for her bank when so much is required to prepare for the EGM and perhaps more to come ?? ‘
…………………………………………
No double standard please! Another DBS staff, a managing director is a PAP MP.
Is it easier being a PAP MP? Is working for the PAP allowed but not for any NGO?
Let’s see how democracy works at AWARE.
singaaware
Chee Ky
You are being selective in your reading. You should also read those anti-new-exco mail. Both sides do what you described.
coolsense
Based on above updates on the EOGM, seems overwhelming majority of the shouting, screaming, jeering etc is being done by supporters of the old guard. Probably the new guard’s supporters are really insignificant in numbers. Anyway even before the EOGM, it doesn’t take a fortune teller to predict the vast turnout for the old guard. Since they already have the numbers to crush the new exco, is there any reason to behave in such unladylike & uncivilised manner? Throughout this whole mess, both sides have displayed very negative impressions of women despite all their experience & maturity of years. This is setting back the progress of S’pore women, not advancing it. Ends up being a free comedy show for men & foreigners. This time the women are the ones who don’t get it.
singaaware
observ,
the fight will go on, in another place, another time.
4d
14) smallvice585
“Wah.. so many men turned up to see cat fight.. typical Singaporean man some more.. wear so lok kok.. This is supposed to be Suntec City, not Geylang Lorong 12…”
Those are punters lah…today is Saturdays…bets are on old exco…13:1
bismarker
keep the spirit up, we need stuff like these next time when the Lees speak.
Chee Ky
Singaaware… I humbly suggest you review the ST discussion groups…. the number of idiotic insults from the pro-new guard fans is 100 times more than those from the pro-old guard group… even my usually complacent conservative dad was outraged that “Christian” Singaporeans could act in such a way… this saga has, fortunately, opened a lot of eyes to the sickness of hatred that is infecting Singapore… thank you
annon
is it 80,000 or 18,000? helpsaveaware says 18k.
singaaware
Chee Ky
You are making assumption. How do you know they are Christians?
David
I hope to be counted as one who support the old guard, please add me in as an additional spiritual vote if it can be counted too. Thank you.
Good to know that it is good news for the old guard, the vote seems to be in favour of respecting the eldest who apparently to be the old guard and not Thio Su Men, the shameless closeted feminist. COOS seem to put itself in a shameful spotlight today, never before seen in Singapore on any religious group.
I am going for dinner now and hope to log on again to read good news from TOC team. Good news mean for the people, for Singapore, for our nation. Tiliban mentality cannot be applied in any NGOs in Singapore. I hope DBS can consider the necessary actions on those who violated the code of conduct after this saga.
Thank you.
Julian
Wow! Spending $85,000 for Suntec city when constitution says appproval is needed from members for amount exceeding $20,000! If this is not sheer incompetence, what is? They should stick the bill to the clowns who booked the hall without permission!
Joel Low
Please tell us the result….
bamboola
UPDATE PLS!!
jonny_depth
to the old guard ladies, YOU GO GIRLS !!
sourgrapes
I applauded the supporters of the old guard.
There are always those in the fringes of societies with closed minds. No amount of reasonable debate or logic would change their myopic view of the world.
The only thing left is to booed these people of the stage.
jonny_depth
is that voilet oon on the 1st and 2nd pic, in the lime green shirt ?? And what was she chanting ??
samantha_Loy
they used underhand method to vote themselves in, raided the AWARE establishment and now spending $100K just to stage this event !! How wasteful can that be ?
That money could have been better spent on the distressed ladies seeking help in AWARE than to profit the suntec organisation. Really stoopid ladies that got nothing better to do !
smallvice585
Eh. Dana Lam looks like Sarah Palin
leihoma
I just got back from the venue as I am not able to sit through because of other commitments. Those who have missed out have missed out witnessing democracy at work. Wow, the wormen can surely speak their minds if they want to. Members are allowed to vote to voice their opinion and to make a decision for the future of AWARE.
Whatever the results, this whole saga has certainly brought to light issues that we were not aware of, like the instruction manual used by trainers for the Comprehensive Sex Education (CSE) which MOE claimed to have vetted and approved of its contents. I have also taken for granted that the knowledge imparted to the students were acceptable until the contents of the programme were brought to the public’s attention via the link for the I-Petition to MOE.
As parents, we cannot assume that MOE is doing the job. I am very concerned and will certainly request the schools for the contents of such programs before deciding not to OPT OUT.
risky
If Josie looses this battle, her reputation’s certain to go down the drain along with her deteriorating career at DBS. People are gonna remember her underhand method and how she’s being portrayed as a dishonest lady with a close minded myopic view. Lesson learnt is don’t mess with secular organisation, esp when you come from a staunch religious background.
A loyal Singaporean, to the nation only
Keep up this news update fresh. Good job in beating the Straits times, which is a good for nothing paper except as a propaganda tool for the PAP regime. in this case, maybe straits times is not interested in the AWARE case as it is not coming from the PAP regime.
cat's poop
why the new exco seem to like secret meetings, secret this and that and now secret ballot? huh? AWARE so secretive meh?
Joel Low
smallvice585 … Dana Lam is better looking than Sarah Palin. I vote for no more secrets …… I thought AWARE should be transparent …..
46) samantha_Loy on May 2nd, 2009 6.15 pm ,
the losers now are the women in distress. Blame who? Who called for the EOGM?
What if the EOGM not called? What is the consequence, constitutionally?
Couldn’t we have a rally at Hong Lim Park, cheap and good?
It is always easy to speak from hindsight when sanity regains control.
You should have proposed this before instead when it is underway.
Anyway, ti will be for long time before everybody forgets this saga.The gossippers like samantha will keep the flame alive until every one is jaded then life will return to normal. Then it is back to reality .The issue of life will be again the bread and butter
Cancer
To leihoma…. as a parent we should not be complacent when deciding the type of relevant programmes for our children. We should check and ask if we are unsure… never take things for granted. Why complain now? I believe the existing MOE programme adheres to and is within the context. Please also bear in mind that the initiators of the I-Petition is initiated by the new Exco…. I rest my case.
smallvice585
Looking at the women’s response, I now know why many Singaporean men are so henpecked.
daniel
TOC, you captioned Siew Kum Hong as legal counsel for the old guard. Does he have a Practising Certificate? I thought he was an in-house corporate counsel.
rupert
i’ve called in to cancel my DBS credit card. Reason given – Josie Lau.
*besides, i don’t need more than 2 credit cards*.
TSM and her cronies at COOS have lost every ounce and shred of credibility. The Pastor, Derek Hong has also made a mess of things. The way I see it, there are 2 positive outcomes. 1) Singaporeans are not apathetic after all and do have the passion to fight for what they believe in, and 2) the general public is now “aware” of COOS and its fundamentalist ideology! The Government should keep tabs on this organisation for seditious behaviour.
I wonder how these women in the new Exco can hold their heads up at work. I would be extremely embarrased. I’m even more surprised that they still have a job.
This Sally Ang who apparently screamed at Margaret Thomas to “Shut up and sit down” is usually quite meek in person. (I’ve had dealings with her before). Obviously a wolf in sheep’s clothing.
Finally, I agree that after this saga is over, the new exco should be made personally responsible for the excess which they have spent. That’ll teach them for excluding the old-guard when planning the logistics!
leihoma
To Cancer #55
Thanks for your advice. If you have done so as a parent vetting every programme which the school initiate, my kudos to you. Mine is not a complaint. I must say that this is an awareness for me regarding the CSE as a result of the cat and dog fight. I am not bothered with who initiate the i-Petition and whichever the result goes, the battle is won for me. In my opinion, any impressionable 14 or 15 yearer should not be imparted with knowledge that”Anal sex can be healthy….., sex can be fun… and sex is a pleasurable act…” as stated in the CSE instructions manual whether it is within its context or not.
Do What Is Right
I think we should take religion out of the picture. Although the new team comes from a common religious background, they have stated categorically that their personal religious views will not be imposed on Aware’s programmes.
The inordinate focus on religion has been deliberately played up by the Straits Times, for reasons I’m not aware. But there’s more than meets the eye.
The question we should ask ourselves is: Are Aware’s programmes in recent years on sexuality education in line with their objectives? Is this what we want for Singapore and our children?
doggy
cat fights! cat fights! cat fights!
tj
could only be there in spirit, as have to work today…
when’s the result coming?
sourgrapes
Dear TOC admin
Congratulations! You guys did the best job. This webpage is still reasonably responsive despite the load. Only once did I encounter a page error (CPU load error).
In comparison, Wayang Party webpage (your “arch nemesis”?) slowed to a crawl, while the Straits Times blog is almost completely inaccessible.
smallvice585
Hell has no fury like a woman scorned
Do What Is Right
I think we should take religion out of the picture. Although the new team comes from a common religious background, they have stated categorically that their personal religious views will not be imposed on Aware’s programmes.
The inordinate focus on religion has been deliberately played up by the Straits Times, for reasons I’m not aware. But there’s more than meets the eye.
The question we should ask ourselves is: Are Aware’s programmes in recent years on sexuality education in line with their objectives? Is this what we want for Singapore and our children?
Gone
To #49 risky
“If Josie looses this battle, her reputation’s certain to go down the drain along with her deteriorating career at DBS. People are gonna remember her underhand method and how she’s being portrayed as a dishonest lady with a close minded myopic view. ”
For all the reasons that you have stated, she is gone for good regardless of the result of the vote.
smallvice585
Are the votes being re-counted for the 3rd time?
lobo76
Cost of the event: 80-100k?
New members over the last month: 3000 – 300 = 2700
Membership Fees (iirc): $40
Total $$ from new members: $40 x 2700 = 108K.
While I think it is somewhat reasonable (funds fr new members FOR new members to vote) to spend before asking (not very practical to ask, imo), it is disturbing why they seem to need to keep so many things secretive. Not really good for their ‘transparent’ image if they ever want to cultivate one.
Even the new committee wins to night they should give it up and hand over on a platter to Singam. The committee will face alot of problems in the future . The specter of anti gays or homosexaull will continue to spook them. There will be anti christians sentiments and all these will not bode well for AWARE.
Maybe one solution is to review the religious and racial representation in the constitution to make it look more secular and also for the future no one religion or racial group can hijack an advocacy group.
All the best.
Do What Is Right
Joel Low
I think in the end, the Singaporean Spirit will prevail. i am doubtful TSM and Josie Lau and her gang will apologize. They still stand at the position that they did nothing wrong and they are just concern citizens. Even if they apologize, it will be that they regrets that the event has turn out in such a way. Actually also not apologetic. They will remain unrepentant and will consider themselves heroes and they suffered for the gospel.
From now onwards, Dr Thio, her daughter, Josie Lau and her gang will be closely watched by the public. They may not be welcomed to join any secular Organization anymore. Their words will not be taken seriously by many people and they will loose their trust. Their craftiness will continue to have a ripple effect on themselves and every word they say in public will now attract a lot of rebuttal.
I am not cursing them, I am not even threatening them, but this is common sense evaluation. The consequences for breaking the very “spiritual law” they try to impose on others.
I actually felt sorry for them.
Do What Is Right
can i ask why are my posts not accepted?
Ahgong
Wow, so exciting leh. Singapore GE also no such excitement. hahaha
brainwave
one hour and half and vote counting still on ?? how many voters at suntec?? anybody there with any updates ?
WeiHan
Thio was actually very taken aback when their anti-gay message didn’t garner the widespread receptance they expected when 377A was being debated. The lesson is that don’t assume that your voice represents the majority when it is not. This is probably their own delusion that they thought their view is mainstream and is normal. Singaporeans are more neutral and open-minded than most people thought.
jarjarblinks
I suspect that the Old Guard has an impending landslide. If it is the new exco that has won, surely they can’t wait to release the news?
I believe there will be some behind the scenes negotiating and arm wrangling now. Probably drawing the lines.
cleareyes
Given that there are less than 2000 votes to be counted and yet its taking so long, something is very very wrong somewhere and numerous recount seem to be on the way. Lets wait and see.
This seems to be more exciting than GE.
jarjarblinks
I believe the Old Guard should have an impending landslide. It has been so long, surely if the new exco has won, they will release the news asap to rally their supporters.
Perhaps there is some behind the scenes negotiation and arm wrangling now.
PJ
Oiiii! You all don’t talk bad about Thio Su Mien ok? She wants to remind you all that she’s the first woman Law Dean and she DEMANDS that you respect her!
lost the plot
now that the new guard has put its point for parents to review the teaching of sex education, I feel that they should now step down and let the old guard do the rest.
When there were no materials at hand to help teeagers deal with abortions, premarital sex, STD – I applaud AWARE for taking the lead.
We lead, we spearhead , we learn.
Now that COOS has put up its stand, COOS should put up its own sex education manual for MOE to consider.
Lastly, the new guard should be clear that in secular singapore – Anal sex is legal and the law is also pro oral sex and pre-marital sex.
How can you have a sex education that keep silent on this – and students will ask questions.
If it is not ‘neutral’ would that not be conflicting with the laws of the land?
Grace
Even if Josie Lau is so thick skinned as to continue to be the president, the repercussions for AWARE and DBS is going to be very BAD. I will definitely not support any AWARE program if she remains president and many DBS credit cards may be canceled. Isn’t there any regulatory body to prosecute her for misusing and/or indiscriminately spending AWARE’s funds without proper authority?
Liar
The Pastor, Derek Hong, Thio Su Mien, Josie Lau and her gang from COOS twist the truth in the name of Christianity.
I really do not understand !
David
Can’t wait for the news, but please allow TOC the breather to follow things through for more accurate reporting without the need to rush. I am sure end of the day, all the Thios foxes from the same cave will be send home and never to be allowed to appear again..
Joel Low
PJ … are you PJ John? Actually I think this is all TSM fault. She thought too highly of herself and misled those group of ladies. Now they must be feeling regret of hearing her word.
She admit it herself, she has been mentoring these group of women. She is a danger to Singapore and Christianity. Actually here we are seeing how a person can sow seed into others mind and misled them to do so much harm to our society. She should not be allow to mentor anybody.
As a Christian I believe one should always point to God and not themselves. This is an example of trying to glorify self by using God’s name ….. God will require an answer.
Liar
josie and gang lost …lastest on CNA… BYE
Curious
63) Joel Low on May 2nd, 2009 7.36 pm
1″I think in the end, the Singaporean Spirit will prevail”
What is the Singapore Spirit? Demanding an EGM when one loses an election which was democratically held?
2″i am doubtful TSM and Josie Lau and her gang will apologize”
What is there to apologize?
For your info, Josie was nominated for exco membership ONLY at the last AGM by Mrs Clare Nazar, who was in turn nominated for president by Constance Singam.
Clare was voted in as president of AWARE and Mrs Singam was delighted !
Josie was elected ONLY as a member of Clare’s exco. It shows that the new members were not there to take over AWARE. If so Josie would have go for the presidency FIRST.
Mrs Singam’s candidate was elected president at the last AGM. That was not a coup by the new members as some like to falsely spread the rumor.
Josie did not ask to be president of AWARE. She only stepped into the position after Clare resigned as president. So why blame Josie ?
The old guards only made noise and asked for the EGM only after Josie became president. Why the double standard? Is this the Singapore Spirit?
3″From now onwards, Dr Thio, her daughter, Josie Lau and her gang will be closely watched by the public.”
BY which segment of the public? Those who favor same sex marriage and gay anal sex public? I think majority of the parents in Singapore support Josie’s brave action to bring the allegedly perverted CSE to the attention of the mainstream public and MOE. This is under investigation.
4″They may not be welcomed to join any secular Organization anymore.”
Are there no Christians among the old guards? What is the religion of Margaret Thomas and Constance Singam? Does anyone know?
If AWARE really wants diversity in their organization then put into the constitution that all racial and religious groups are represented. Is this practical? Where is the meritocratic ethos that we cherish?
5″I am not even threatening them”
If you do I am sure the law will take care of you promptly.
6″I actually felt sorry for them.”
Why don’t you start by feeling sorry for yourself first? There is a saying that “man who puts hand in pocket, feels cocky all day! I hope that does not apply to you.
Joel Low
1.414 votes in support of no confidence in the current exco.
764 votes not in support of no confidence in current exco.
In the mist of celebration, I felt very alarmed at the 764 votes….. They really got the Christian women to come down. wow…..
samantha_Loy
Well Josie and her gang can now kiss AWARE goodbye. Along with so proclaimed “feminist metal” Thio, they all have no credibility now.
I wish Josie good luck in what’s left of her fast deteriorating career in DBS. And if DBS decides to fire her, it’s only because there’s still some common sense in it. In any case, Josie gonna’s have a hard time looking for a job elsewhere given the mess she’s created for AWARE and the bad spotlight cast on her church.
brainwave
GOD is GREAT !!! No pharisee or Sadducee or self righteous person who use the name of God in vain would get their way. Great day for us Christians !!!
cat's poop
i think the congregation at COOS is around 800? prolly they really got most of their church members down…
well, grats to the old guards. so what’s next?
WeiHan
Yes…They really got all the COOS’s and a few sisters churches’s women to come down and vote.
ZL
Old Guards 1.414 votes
New Guards 761votes
It’s a victory for the old guards, although it’s only half a battle won.
I hat off for those who turned up for what they believe. Also, thanks to TOC’s live report.
jarjarblinks
But the motion is not binding, according to the legal counsel employed by new guard. What’s next? More bitter arm wrangling? Why don’t they just graciously step down? What exactly is their motivation for their temerity?
WeiHan
//71) samantha_Loy on May 2nd, 2009 8.15 pm Well Josie and her gang can now kiss AWARE goodbye. Along with so proclaimed “feminist metal” Thio, they all have no credibility now.
I wish Josie good luck in what’s left of her fast deteriorating career in DBS. And if DBS decides to fire her, it’s only because there’s still some common sense in it. In any case, Josie gonna’s have a hard time looking for a job elsewhere given the mess she’s created for AWARE and the bad spotlight cast on her church.//
Well…Samantha_Loy,
The salary she has been drawing since she got her VP’s position is already enough for beat most of us. She can retire fully and enjoy life now. But of course, this is a difficult thing to do especially for power craving people.
smallvice585
Hi Joel Low #53,
Actually, TSM, her dotter, Jossie and the Pussycats will be forgotten in 3 months time. The public tends to have a short memory span.
WeiHan
I wonder Derek Hong is going to ask his bunch of church cronies to step down graciously. If not, then what was his apology about?
Ahgong
If the old guard managed to rid clean of the COOS member, i hope that they will learned some lesson over this. Singapore still a conservative country and lots of christian fanatics like the COOS. They should be more sensitive to the content in the teaching materials CSE. Else, instead of helping the homosexual, they will be projecting more fear into those people who can not think for themself.
sllim
smallvice585 #84,
I think they will live on as a cautionary tale: See what happens if you don’t eat your vegetables, think you are on a mission from god etc
PJ
The New Guards have NO MORAL GROUND to stay as Exco, regardless of whether the motion is legaly binding or not. They will only be despised by more people.
sllim
Are the new guards in the back room praying for a miracle? A flood perhaps?
PJ
Heard thru the grapevine that Josie’s husband Dr Alan Chin told the audience that the expenses for the day is more than compensated for by the $120,000 collected in new membership fees. Who is this chap to speak for Aware?
Joel Low
#75 Curious on May 2nd, 2009 8.08 pm
So you are not happy I spoke the truth and hit the point. I felt sorry too … for you.
You are so blind…. Why can’t you see what most people saw. That only prove you are ignorant.
Now, after knowing majority of the member and the public do not want them in AWARE they still have the cheek to linger. So many people can see through them and you can still believe and defend that they did not want a takeover. Wake up.
You are entitled your own opinion. Stop attack people here. everyone have their rights, or are you like the New EXCO …. like to shaft your ideas into people’s throat.
smallvice585
What I find really amazing is that Straits Times, The Online Citizen and W-a-yang Party all use the twitter format to cover the AWARE EOGM live. Even Ch5 was showing the official #awaresg twitter feed live. New Media rocks… Sanity prevails!
hold it.
after all this microscope on AWARE -
I hope the focus will now shift to why a PAP MP finds the need to borrow money from a charity organisation and arrange a housing loan that was non-compliant.
I feel ST has successfully hide this behind AWARE.
Let us move on,
concerned
Highly charged is an understatement.
The supporters of the Old Guard brought embarrassment to themselves through their unruly behaviour. Once again, the media showed their bias reporting. Actions speak louder than words.
Come what may, what was evident during the meeting is that the denials of the Old Guard concerning their agenda ring false. Just glad that the new exco surfaced it.
Do not believe everything you read. Do your research, witness for yourself and make your own judgements.
FMJ
Oerhaps the old guard should consider suing the former new exco for defamation
Joel Low
Are the new EXCO making the decision to resign today?
Breeder
AWARE (old guard), the male chauvinist pigs of the world stand arm in arm in solidarity with you!
Shall we look at the arguments that have been raised by the new guard in recent weeks? They said that the old guard lost out because they were complacent. Does 1400 voting for the new guard sound like complacency to you?
They say that the majority of Singaporeans do not support the old guard in viewing gay behaviour as neutral. Where are they? Why did they not turn up? The MRT fare from Expo to Suntec is less than $2!
They say that the old guard was ousted in a “democratic” election. In what way was the AGM democratic and the EOGM of May 2nd not? We have heard plenty of rhetoric about how wonderful democracy is that it has ushered in the new guard. Has democracy suddenly lost its luster overnight?
Curious – I need to clarify what you meant. You implied that “meritocracy” and having people of all religions and races represented are in opposition to each other. This is a very interesting comment. I spell out the unavoidable conclusions of this and invite you to comment on them one by one.
1. Singapore, if it is to be “meritocratic” means that it supports some religions over others, and is racist.
2. Meritocracy means that the opinions of Christian fundamentalism are to be held over and above other branches of Christianity which are less “pure” and “true”, and over and above other religions.
randommindlessness
Yea! New Media Rocks! This is a sold out Crowd! They Could’ve done a Pay-Per-View to get back all the money for this event LOL.
And both TOC and W Party rocks too!
I never expected such grandness LOL. Goes to show many are online after all!
smallvice585
Hi PJ #89,
Dr Alan Chin is after all Josie’s spouse. If he does not defend his wife, who will?
But the numbers revealed thus far are quite shocking:
S$85,000 for the Suntec venue
S$90,000 for Rajah & Tann’s legal counsel
Josie has wasted a total of S$175,000 of AWARE’s money on senseless politicking.
AWARE: SUNTEC: RAJAH&TANN = 0 : 1 : 1
DT
Although I was not there to support the no confident in the new AWARE gang. I am delighted that they lost. How can educated people like them behave in such a way. I do not support homosexuality or lebian behaviours but I understand that they do not choose to be what they become. I think if our children did not become one of them, then I must thank GOD for that.
Liar
Thio,Josie and gang disappear. What type of people do we have nowadays in our society. Should take Josie and gang to task for all the wrongdoings.
sad day
If the old guard is restored back to power. Are they going to continue with their pro-homosexual education program? Who is going to keep an eye over them?
This is a very sad day for the silent and conservative majority in Singapore.
Curious
82) jarjarblinks on May 2nd, 2009 8.20 pm
1′But the motion is not binding, according to the legal counsel employed by new guard.
Yet, the old guards have asked the exco to step down. Why? Is it legal?
If they step down then a new election will be held. That is old guard vs new guard ver2 at Suntec city again or Expo, Hall 2.
Will AWARE have to spend another $90,000 to lease a hall at Suntec City, plus security to hold a new election? Can Aware afford it? They were reported to have spent $90,000 today for the hall and security etc.
2 “What’s next? Why don’t they just graciously step down?”
If they do please see above. The cost is about $180,000. (Today’s cost plus cost of new elections.)
But if the exco does not step down if according to Article 9 the result of the motion of no confidence is not binding then I see the cat fight may land up in court, wasting this time about S90,000 each on legal fees by both sides.
If the court says the motion is not binding then the new exco stays and the total cost for AWARE is about $180,000. ($90,000 today +$90,000 legal fees)
What happens if the courts orders the new exco to step down. Then a new election must be held.
Then the total cost to AWARE escalates to about $270,000 ($90,000 today +$90,000 for legal fees and $90,000 for new election).
Will Aware need to spend a total of $180,000 or $270,000 before bruised egos are soothed?
Tune in for the continuing story of “Hell has no fury like a woman scored” while the stomach turns!
Ahgong
To many churches, what is 175k?
AL
DAMN! This is one of the most exciting political event even happen in Singapore for a long, long time! All the Best to The NEW old AWARE!
smallvice585
Now that Josie & the Pussy cats are out of the picture, they ought to be focusing on how to rebuild the public perception of the Christian Faith.
stay secular
This is their strategy to destroy AWARE. Hard to work without Money.
However, it the constitution only exco to spend $20k per month, Aware should able to ask EX-new guards to reimburse the organisation individually.
I hope the church will stay out of this. Hope govt keep an eager eyes over their expenditure.
I believe Christian lawyers of the lawyer firm will ask firm to forgo the costs.
PJ
Very glad that it’s finally turned out right for the women of S’pore. Now Dana Lam and her new-New Exco has inherited an $80,000 bill for legal counsel and $20,000 bill from Suntec City. How much is for that event organiser?
samantha_Loy
54) Peace ,
Yeah yeah yeah…blah blah blah…calling others gossipers here and pardon me, what are you doing here as well? You are no different from Josie in brandishing high moral value of yourself, and worst, forcing others to accept your self-proclaimed values which is only worth a salt at most !
Wow! Endgame at last. What a relief. Thought it would never end.
Watcher
It is heartening to note that hard-ball tactics and underhand methods by Josie, Thio SM and gang are rejected outright by majority. Well done to Singapore women!
It is very shocking that Josie and gang spent $175,000 just like that in a short span of 1 month in office. I am so glad that they have been stopped.
The next step should be to proceed with legal and criminal actions against Dr Thio SM (for instigating it, and to malign MOE with lies and untruths), and against Dr Alan Chin, Josie and gang for indiscriminate use of AWARE funds.
Well done and best wishes to the NEW old guards!
Based on how the original coup was carried out, no one with common sense would vote for the new exco.
It’s strange and silly that the new exco didn’t see this coming even before the whole saga started.
Doublespeak
“Old exco proposed motion to remove Ms Josie Lau’s exco. This was passed with two objections”
I wonder who were the two diehards…
Anyways……………
Congrats! It’s a great moment for everyone. I must say the online media had made a lot of impact on this saga. Kudos to all who supported the old guards online and offline.
josh
it was an exciting ride though… better than soap opera!!
Lop
“Based on how the original coup was carried out, no one with common sense would vote for the new exco. ”
There were 761 votes.
You’d think it’s scary. But on second thought, what if there weren’t religions to at least guide such people to do the mostly correct things? Better be used by religions than something else!
ROY
Thank you The Online Citizen for providing coverage of this historical event! You (ladies and guys) are magnificant! Thank you very much and i hope the other readers can show their appreciation as well to TOC
concerned
Everyone who has contributed or viewed the many comments on this thread and others should take careful note of this day and time.
The incoming exco should be subjected to the same scrutiny that Josie and exco was subjected to. Would the general well-being of women be the focus of AWARE or would it be more of the same? At the very least, awareness was created that none of us can afford to be complacent about our views and values.
stay secular
Best reality show on twitterfall, for 6 hours, Singapore is on top 8 in the world!
AWARE has new subscriptions from 2700 new members = $40 x (3000-300) = $108k + future annual subscriptions that it can collect.
Good marketing strategy. Let’s see which is the next organisation to be that creative in milking this strategy.
May be difficult to find another sucker to take the fall!
But we never know!
PJ
By the way, why didn’t Thio Su Mien herself offer one of her lawyers as legal counsel…for free? That would make her look good. Or wouldn’t it? I tell you, these Thio-Josie-Maureen types enjoy success and prosperity because our secularism and tolerance has provided the conducive environment for them to do so, now they want to poison the same water that has prospered them.
ICare
Yaaaaay!!! Justice HAS prevailed! I’m so proud of all the supporters of the REAL Aware who turned up at Suntec and voted. You guys ROCK!! Congratulations to Dana Lam and her new exco. Congratulations to all supporters of a secular, all-inclusive AWARE.
ICare
# ROY 9.51pm
Yes, thank you TOC. Fabulous job. You guys rock too.
singaaware
The new-exco and its supporters should wake up to reality. 1700+ does not represent Singapore’s women. There are more than a million of them. The silent majority has still not spoken up.
This is only the beginning. More women will get organised to throw out this new-exco. It will suffer at its own game, get a dose of its own medicine.
What has Singapore’s women got out of this EGM? Back to the old ways, ruled by the Old Guards.
This is a big step backward for Singapore’s women. History is made today – never has so many screaming and shouting bitches congregated in one place in Singapore before.
owkowk
Sad day for Singapore , Josie Lau and exco do not lose faith , I believe in you and your group, continue in your efforts , the LORD be with you.
Congratulations to the new EXCO, don’t rest on the laurels. There is much work to be done. Don’t stray. This time it will be different. This time it will not be just opposition from the members or a coup, this time it will a public outcry.
When the dusts have settled , it will be time to evaluate , review where you have gone wrong and set the it right….
I was right….you would win back the control of the society but in the last 3 weeks the Josie and her ex-committee have won a bigger victory for society and the people at large. They have achieved their goals. People are now awaken to an issue previously they were indifferent, bochap. Suddenly they are sitting up and take an interest in their children and the world around them. The coup ,the hijack has awaken many that their future should not be left to an apparently innocous organisation which may be changed, may veer and which may be hijacked, which may be infiltrated by so called well meaning people to ‘tongpang’ their agenda to dislocate the shared values. Be wary of these wolves in sheep’s clothings.Be on your heels always. Every new comer is a suspect.
I wish the new Exco all the best.
sllim
Doublespeak #131,
Good for them. I am surprised that there are not more than 2. And a little perturbed.
To be clear, it’s perfectly OK for members to share the views of Josie and have (wrong-headed) views on sexuality based on religion.
AWARE will be a poorer community if they start excluding people, like Josie and gang , who don’t share their views, .
vincesgp
There are no winners in this saga. Unnecessary costs, wasted time, and lots of bad publicity.
Jaydcoke
Just want to clarify that the amounts noted in the comments above are inaccurate:
Suntec charged $18,000 for hall 402 and an additional $5000 for the similarly sized hall 403.
The (now former) new exco spent about $90,000 in the first month in office. I presume this includes the $23,000 at Suntec and an undisclosed sum to Rajah and Tann.
I must say that Gregory Vijayendran of Rajah and Tann did a very good job and clarified he was not acting for the (now former) new exco, but for Aware. He often took a very impartial stand and indeed made some comments and pronouncements in favour of the old guard.
No sums were disclosed for the expenditure on new locks, CCTV etc at the Centre, nor on event management fees paid to Boardroom nor on scrutineering fees to Deloitte and Touche.
Overall, the night showed the wonderful and invigorating strength of people power, the utter rejection of bigotry, the quality of the people who’d built up Aware over the last 24 years, and ultimately the arrogance, incompetence, inexperience and naivete of Josie Lau’s team.
What a wonderful night it turned out to be!
sllim
It will be interesting to see if Josie and gang turn up for future meetings and renew their memberships, considering how she was unhappy that attendence at meetings dwindled.
I hope earning their way up the ladder, badge by badge, doesn’t deter them.
Henry
Thank you, ladies, for teaching us the true meaning of democracy. As for the schemers and liars (you know who you are), we pray for your souls. Our Lord is forgiving and it’s not too late to change from your errant ways. Just don’t use the name of our Lord in vain – that sin is unforgivable.
Q
Wow, so many thoughts but I will just mention a few.
Thio is extremely offensive and arrogant, calling herself a “feminist mentor”. It seems lots of the sentences out of her mouth start with self-praise!
Her son-in-law who spoke up about how they spent 90k but we should focus on the 120k that they made in new members, I’m sure TT Durai would have supported that kind of reasoning.
Do these people even process anything in their brains before it comes out their mouths?
Josie Lau and her group 1) saying they all didn’t know each other prior depsite 6 of them from the same church signing up at the same time and then later changing it to not knowing them “intimately” and with their “feminist mentor” coming forward with the truth that she coached all/most of them, 2) holding press conference and asking another exco member to go to the wrong venue and lying about it, 3) saying she has discretion to go against the constitution (my mouth just dropped open, I myself am committee member of a charity that helps disabled and just completely shocked by this attitude), and 4) saying they hired the new manager from her church because she happened to be available..all these coincidences add up.
And really curious as to the article 9 of the AWARE constitution. As a lawyer, I wanted to read it to see why R&T and other practising lawyers in the audience had such an opposite view but I couldn’t find it on the website.
Newbie
Yes, i was right in saying that josie lau and her group of fundamentalists are born losers in this saga, i should be a prophet. They are nothing but a bunch of religion mud draggers and have caused so much pain and unrest to all the innocent christians and the rest of the minorities
The obvious winners are the old guard and the new nominated committee members. Only sore losers will kick off this logic of “no winners from this saga”
Their pastor still have the audacity to say that they are the majority?Yeah..they are the majority in their own little church and God is infuriated with their disgusting act of discrimination and sin of lying.
God have indeed wield his anger of injustice towards this group of fundamentalists by supporting the righteous side – thy new nominated AWARE prevails.
wei chun
CONGRATULATIONS to the new OLD AWARE! sanity prevails!
Do you think the Josie and her committee really lost?
You naive pro Dana supporters. They lost even before the start of the proceeding.
They were stepping down even before the votes were cast.Do you think they could not garner a few thousand people to support them? After capturing it and setting it right they were already preparing to return it.
To tell you truth.
THEY WERE NEVER INTERESTED IN AWARE LET ALONE RUNNING AWARE.
It is time the truth be told. it was the gays and lesbian issues they were interested. After 3 weeks of publicity on this issue every body knows. That is what they captured the gone astray civil society for.
Wake up, people and be alert lest your longheld beloved institutions be subverted by insidious agents of destruction lurking and ready to pounce.
mice is nice
easy to recover the money, sell the story to make a movie!
simply titled: AWARE: A Woman’s Battle
^.^
WeiHan
//142) Peace on May 2nd, 2009 10.34 pm Congratulations to the new EXCO, They have achieved their goals. People are now awaken to an issue previously they were indifferent, bochap. Suddenly they are sitting up and take an interest in their children and the world around them. The coup ,the hijack has awaken many that their future should not be left to an apparently innocous organisation which may be changed, may veer and which may be hijacked, which may be infiltrated by so called well meaning people to ‘tongpang’ their agenda to dislocate the shared values. Be wary of these wolves in sheep’s clothings.Be on your heels always. Every new comer is a suspect.
I wish the new Exco all the best.//
If the public really supports Thio and Josie’s gang, they would have won the EGM’s “no confidence” movement. I would dare to say that majority of Singaporean are actually neutral in view about AWARE’s CSE programme. So what do you think they have won?
gambit
a $175k fiasco which could’ve been avoided if
1) original aware was more discriminate with who they selected into exco
2) didn’t involve the media and turn everything into a circus
3) relied only on their underground connections to eogm. they have so many. free.
however all said, lessons learnt
1) beware of the fundies exploiting ngos for their hidden agenda
2) never attempt to spin too many lies. you’ll forget which was ‘true’
3) don’t procrastinate your support for a cause
4) thios et al need to find another island to impose their draconian visions
mirax
Hi I just got back from the AWARE EGM and it was a marvellous event to be a part of.
Brief summary : Got there at about 12.30pm but the queue was so long that it took me 1.5 hours to get into the conference hall. the meeting started late becasue so many people were waiting outside to be registered. There was strict security and bag checks before entry was allowed.
I think well over 2000 members and at least 500 associate members- men and foreigners- turned up. Young and old, families, people of all races and religions, very calm during the wait to get in, lots of smiles and new friends made.
The registration and ther organisational legwork was sourced out to Ape communications, the operation of the election procedures to Boardroom (some commercial outfit that does this) and the other operations to one more firm. Very corporate like! BUt nothing compared to the ORIGINAL AWARE volunteer mobilisation which was impressive. The jokers who did the counting took over 3 hours to send in the result. Btw when the members tried to ask how much it all cost, we did not get an answer until hours later – the exco was that deceitful and evasive- but listen, here was the sum : $90 000!!! Earlier in the queue I was talking to an AWARE helpline volunteer whohad been there the nite Josie and gang changed the locks and set up cctv (did you know about that?). She was complaining about how the phoneline counsellors did not even have proper headsets – to do their job better- and I think she may have passed out on hearing about the sum spent. AWARE should personally hold Josier and gang accountable because AWARE ’s constitutional rules forbid expenditure aboue $20 000 a month. This formally mentioned and noted during the meeting.
Ok the meeting was totally iimpassioned and pretty raucous – i have lost my voice from cheering so much!- esp when the FM spoke. FANTASTIC crowd! Speaker after speaker, muslim, chriostian, straight, gay, old and young lined up to condemn the exco.
We were pretty roused but we did not start out that way. Josie and gang tried to subvert and control the entire EGM by not letting us speak. They switched off the mikes, threatened people with the security guards and it was a battle to raise basic points of order. Sally Ang at one point early on screamed : SIT DOWN AND SHUT UP! The whole hall erupted . we were often on out feet, waving our hands and applauding the speakers from the floor – let us just say 97% of them slammed the Josie & jokers repeatedly and everyone of these 97% was articulate, impassioned and outclassed the 3 % who spoke for the other side by a zillion miles. You had to be there to see it! The FM was heckled and booed and basically the crowd indicated to her to to F*** Off. I immensely enjoyed that part of the proceedings, she totally deserved it.
Well were there till way past 9, got the job done of getting rid of the new rubbish and making history of some sort for civic organisations. There was a huge feeling of camaraderie and community – that can only be good for Singapore. I did not even have a bite to eat until 10 pm but the feeling of standing up to be counted for something so basic as diversity and plurality was so good I tell you.
JL
#140 singaaware,
certainly, certainly.
we are all waiting :)
tiredman
Congrez old guards! Continue the good work of yours. Both men and women will benefit from this.
JL
#149,
certainly too.
we can tell they were never interested in AWARE or running it.
that’s why we help them to leave since they were not interested.
but thanks for confirming it again. you rock man!
WeiHan
//149) The Watchman on May 2nd, 2009 11.01 pm Do you think the Josie and her committee really lost?
THEY WERE NEVER INTERESTED IN AWARE LET ALONE RUNNING AWARE.//
Of course, they are not keen about AWARE. They have always been keen about pushing their own religious agenda. Since when have these well-to-do women been concerned about other the welfare of other women. Don’t forget! Their belief is “woman is subjugation to man”.
//It is time the truth be told. it was the gays and lesbian issues they were interested. After 3 weeks of publicity on this issue every body knows. That is what they captured the gone astray civil society for.
Wake up, people and be alert lest your longheld beloved institutions be subverted by insidious agents of destruction lurking and ready to pounce.//
This is old fear mongering tactic. Dear Feminist Mentor’s daughter has already used this tactic openly in her notorious parliament speech. However, to the COOS’s irks surprise, there isn’t much of a overwhelming receptance from the majority public.
fvbfdf
wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i never expect a new exco will be made again.
wah well done.
there is still justice in this world.
the world is fair.
good work to all those who win
Pork And Pork
I congratulate the Old Guards.
I hope Josie continue her cause and form another organization the way she wants it and serve women also. But I hope women of all religious believes would be helped also. I guess, she has problem with that, if she forms a new organization.
Well done SKH!
Eddie
Josie and her team lost due to their inexperience in this heavy politiking. From the sequence of events that had happened, it was clear that during the earlier AGM, she obviously had no idea that she was going to be the President of AWARE. She was nominated by an old guard to be in the Ex-Co. The earlier nominated President was an old guard. Now, why this earlier old guard President resigned within a short space of time instead of taking on the challenge of leading and steering the committee in the direction of the underlying philosophy of the old guard, only she can answer for herself. With her resignation, somebody has to take over, and Josie did. The sequence of events that followed showed to us how important the management of change is. Old staff at the society obviously would be resistant to the change of management style of the new committee. As we all know, there will always be remnants of old loyalty to old committee. When not managed properly, as with the case here, adverse repercussion happened. The lack of experience also showed in the eagerness to challenge the old philisophy and ways of doing things, thus quickly upsetting many old members who would want to be recognised for their past contributions and efforts, regardless of whether within ourselves we felt that they had been correct or not. No old guards likes to be criticised, whether rightly or wrongly, when they feel that they had contributed their effort to the society. On this aspect, had Josie and team openly acknowledged the contributions of the old guards, and then slowly change things, perhaps today’s event may not have happened. On the other side of the game, the scenario of this saga would appear to me to be akin to something that had happened in a neighbouring country. Dr. M had appointed his successor in Datuk A. It would appear that when Datuk A. did not seem to be doing the things that Dr. M thought he would, Datuk A. was strongly criticised and pressure was put on him to step down. In this kind of game, we can see the difference in outcome between the more politically experienced and the novice. Whatever the outcome, my thoughts as a parent now is on the CSE program that the MOE had initiated in the schools. I will now certainly insist that I must look at the total detailed content on what would be taught to my kids before I sign the consent form. With the poor control exercised by the MOE on this CSE, the onus is now suddenly entrusted to parents to take the initiative to complain, when all along we had thought that our government would be pro-family and would only allow healthy programs to be taught in schools. Unfortunately, it would appear that our MOE had somehow been hoodwinked and infiltrated by subversive elements. What a great disappointment!
JL
#154 weihan,
some people are just delusional. it can be rather pitiful to be delusional. have pity!
Doublespeak
To TOC,
Will we get to watch any footage of the event?
Parser_bai
to TOC,
is there some function whereby you can actually display the IP address of each poster/comment made in here?
that way we all can tell if a number of similarly-veined comments are actually coming from … the same person (same IP add… not sure how this really works though).
toolang
The newly elected Aware team members shall start immediately to amend the Constitution to prevent the same group or similar group of people from taking over Aware again. It is good to hear that the newly elected Aware team members wanted to place the number of years of membership and serving the sub-committees as some of the prerequisites before any member can stand for elections. Please implement it immediately before it is too late. The injured tigresses would return to fight the ferocious battle another day. Don’t be complacent of the overwhelming support this round. The tide may turn on the returned rounds and Aware will be caught flat-footed again and lost forever if history has anything to go by.
It is shocking to learn that about $100,000 was spent within a month in office, spending about $3,000 a day during this period of severe economic downturn. The newly elected Aware team members must conduct a thorough audit of the account immediately and every cent has tol be accounted for. It is public and members’ money and not the deposed committee members’. Do it immediately and make public of the audit!
AWARE saga: Not just a women affair « Blinking Brink
[...] More than a thousand turn up for Aware EOGM, theonlinecitizen.com [...]
David
SINGAPORE HAS FINALLY WON THE BATTLE!!!!!!
It is not just about AWARE old guard finally regained its seat through the support of many Singaporean. It is about Singaporeans of all races and religions are bond together in this saga to save an NGO from being bullied by unwelcomed guest. It is indeed a moment of standing hand–in-hand together to show what fabric of the nation meant. When people sad men are trained to protect this country and now we believe women are equally good in defending our country from being divided. Unlike msm, now I realised new media has a great power to save a country.
faceoff
Say whatever you want, sour losers, go and cry buckets with your fundamentalists, cry over spilled milk, whatever it takes to nurse your bruised, hurt ego and pride and you may help continue to push their christian limits to the uninterested society.
I am really laughing hard at your face, @154, you helped them to get off from AWARE by voting not in support of no confidence in current exco?????So in 761, one of those votes are yours?I am laughing my face off…make up your mind yeah?If you are really bent on helping your fundamentalists, you should vote for old AWARE instead so that your josie lau and thiology will lose face down without even counting. I can tell you that 1.7K is a mere courtesy, there are many more votes going towards the old AWARE, don’t worry, take your time and nurse your deflated ego, at least God made sure that justice is done for the righteous ones and the sinful and lying ones are punished severely.
That’s not the end, DBS will go after her for being a disobedient staff and God will leave the rest of the atrocious sinners out of the Judgment Day list to send them to Hell without even seeing the need to judge at all.
I didn’t know the hearts of men and women until this saga. I wonder, did these people really support and believe in what they were supporting , the gay and lesbian issues. I wonder these people really believe what the old aware was teaching was right. I wonder these people sincerely believe and accept that homosexual lifestyle is normal and they don’;t mind being taught to their children.
I wonder these people really think homosexual lifestyles and their sexualilty are normal and nuetral.
I wonder whether the new AWARE would engage a protagonist of these sexual lifestyle to advise them. I wonder whether the new AWARE will engage Sasha Grey to advise on their CSE program? She is very expereinced and definitely an expert on sexual matters.
These issues have been going through my mind that whether Singaporeans, men and women, would really stand for what they believe. I wonder they would do the same at the next general elections or they just only know how to bully another human being they know would not cuase them harm? I just wonder if this people power or woman power can be emulated at the nest general election?
Old BC
congrats congrats…..now its the start of self destruction. Now, the public knows the true color of Aware. Danger….Beware of Aware!!
intelligent
Guys should come from SOOC. Heard they come in busloads. People form various religions and races supporting old Guards is in stark contrast to the genetical and religious exclusivity of the new Guards.
I thought new Guards will win. They’re more organised, goal-driven, determined and level-headed. But guess all’s well now. $90,000 to hire the legal counsels is overspending. This is insane.
mice is nice
Josie & Co should be banned from being a member of Aware for their lifetime. they are smart & cannot be trusted.
165) toolang on May 2nd, 2009 11.31 pm ,
why not require any member who wishes to stand for exco to have 24 years of expereince? This is the way to ringfence the old guard from being mauled again, right? Associate membership is open to men now, you should join to advise and to alert the exco of any impending danger. For the $100K please don’t over speculate if you are NOT the financial controller .
wei keong
I applause all the women who made a stand today to restore what constitutes a civil society, one that respects the dignity of a person regardless of his/her race, religion, social status, sexual orientation etc You all have shown the true human spirit and the extroadinary courage to stand against fundamentalist.
On the other hand, I would also like to appeal to all out there to keep a rational mind and not debase christianity just because of a few black sheeps, because the majority out there do not embrace the values of TSM and her team. Remember NCC has also spoken out against them and their pastor.
mirax
So funny how the gay and sex obsessed cyber warriors we see pontificating on TOC and elsewhere did not dare show up to talk from the hot seat : the floor of the conference room. Sad delusional bullies or what? Can only pick on easy targets from the safety of your house? Or were you one of the 3 very, very weird guys who spoke up for Josie’s side? One of them was hilarious – he went on and on about women harassing him and squealed “dont touch me, dont touch my body” when female security tried to move him off the floor. another clueless one addressed the crowd – already highlly hostile- as a “CONGREGATION”. Did COOS bus you all in from the ‘weird,lonely loser halfway house’ ?
fried mice
Josie, Thio and co. are snobs, bigots and demi-gods. Ban them from all NGOs for a lifetime…. and their kids too. Evil cannot triumph over good.
brainwave
This is my first time at TOC. It is an eye opener for me to understand the power of this new media and citizen reporting. Its a wonderful feeling that truth and energy on the ground can be transmitted real time to internet users everywhere. I feel liberated and share the excitement at Suntec 402 even not being there. FANTASTIC. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!! TOC – you rock !!
WeiHan
Congrats Congrats!! Now the public knows what the content of CSE is all about but they still opt to vote in the old team. What does it shows?!
Tuck
Tonight at the EGM, many were openly lesbians and gays. With their support, the Josie Lau and team were removed. Well good luck. Aware prefera the lesbians support than the christians. They could be jumping from the pan to the fire
thiology
Yay!!! In the battle of thew century between relligious and racial diversity versus attempted genetic purification, the former won! Equality and democracy for all religions, races and beliefs. Woe to the divisive anti-society acts of thio and co
thiology
for walking away like that, thio and josie are the real sore losers
Tuck
TOC may have observed that JL and team had been very civil and did not criticise the old guard’s members, despite being harrassed and accused unreasonably. JL and team reserve the right to sue. Many libellous words were used, ‘misappropriate’ ‘misuse’, ‘cheat’ etc at the EGM. They should also let the court decide if the motion was binding. Let the old hags pay
lobo76
137)PJ
“By the way, why didn’t Thio Su Mien herself offer one of her lawyers as legal counsel…for free?”
That’s a good point. I tot Siew probably offered his services for free though I can’t be 100% sure. With Thio’s background in Law, surely she has friends … or am i asking too much? lol
mice is nice
the voice of reason has prevailed!!
^.^
… but there is a sizeable number of people who either have fear controlling them or blind faith or both….
+.+
nickname
honestly, the coverage on this site – thrashes ST hands down. well done TOC!
//Whatever the outcome, my thoughts as a parent now is on the CSE program that the MOE had initiated in the schools. I will now certainly insist that I must look at the total detailed content on what would be taught to my kids before I sign the consent form. With the poor control exercised by the MOE on this CSE, the onus is now suddenly entrusted to parents to take the initiative to complain, when all along we had thought that our government would be pro-family and would only allow healthy programs to be taught in schools. Unfortunately, it would appear that our MOE had somehow been hoodwinked and infiltrated by subversive elements. What a great disappointment!//
This is the testimony of a victory for Josie and her stalwarts.People are sitting up.
No longer taking for granted courses purportedly for the ‘education’ of their children. Hidden in the course a trojan to subvert values , jealosuly guarded values of all the communitties and cultures and religions. In future all course must be examined before being fed to our children.
David
to 170) WeiHan
It shows many Singaporean are matured and well informed adults. They are not only educated and open minded to cope with changing world. They know who they are and should be respected. Singaporeans are no longer hermit in their own shell (unlike Josie & Co), and they learned to accept the world as it is which cannot be easily altered. They will not be so “suaku or mountain tortoise” too once they stepped out of ther country to explore other countries. In fact, with the power of internet and all the contents which are easily available to young children nowadays, the AWARE veterans have also moved ahead with time so that it balanced up what the kids saw on the nets together with guided CSE programmes to tell the kids what they wished to know instead of going by trial & error themselves. AWARE is a tested brand, there is no doubt about it, their stand is neutral on controversial issue and their main focus is still to help all women from different walks of life.
As of now, Josie & Co is no longer known as the new guard of AWARE, they are now simply Josie & Co.
Anon
Now now….is josie lau and thio su mien gonna pay back what they have carelessly spent on?90K worth of embarassment + efforts to slam the old guards all came to nought. I am pretty sure that 90K is small little peanuts to thio and lau but since pastor derek hong is so passionate about helping their “sisters”, he should help contribute part of the 90K.
tj
is it just me or Peace sounds like a totally different person?
oh well. anyway, congrats to the new old aware, hope you can keep most of the new members engaged!
for the team which stepped down, thank you for your graciousness.
tj
and kudos to TOC for the live coverage. great job!
THE NEWLY ELECTED EXECUTIVE COMMITTEE (ON 2 MAY 2009)
President………………………….Dana Lam
Vice President……………………Chew I-Jin
Honorary Secretary……………..Yap Ching Wi
Assisitant Honorary Secretary….Corinna Lim
Honorary Treasurer……………..Tan Joo Hymn
Assistant Honorary Treasurer…..Lim Seow Yuin
Committee Member……………..Margaret Thomas
Committee Member……………..Hafizah Osman
Committee Member……………..Nancy Griffiths
Committee Member……………..Nicole Tan
Committee Member……………..Joanna D’ Cruz
Committee Member……………..Martha Lee
WeiHan
//174) David on May 3rd, 2009 12.35 am to 170) WeiHan
It shows many Singaporean are matured and well informed adults. They are not only educated and open minded to cope with changing world. They know who they are and should be respected. Singaporeans are no longer hermit in their own shell (unlike Josie & Co), and they learned to accept the world as it is which cannot be easily altered. //
But Thio, Jausie and Co seem to think that the majority is with them. That goes to show how out of touch they are with the real world. They probably only mix around with their gang of well-to-do, upper class, f***type christians.
my view
Thanks for the coverage.
Congratulation to the old guards!
sllim
For Zefly and his ilk,
TOC-EOGM Annals of delusion
11) singaaware: How can there be a vote-of-no-confidence on an exco which has not been given a chance to perform when Old Guards did not face one in their 24 years of under-performance?”
27) singaaware: Those Old Guards should retire. After 24 years, they have done anything notable. Now they create a mess.
33) untilproven: Who allege that ” fellow Christians who want to impose the values and views of the Christian Right Movement on everyone”? Did the new exco says so or the old guard insinuate such ulterior motives or the newspapers hinted at such motives? …Compare what the old guards have proven in their sexual education programme. The evidence speaks loud and clear and undeniable while all others are just allegations and accusations on new exco, obviously very bitchy tactics by old guards of Aware.
40) singaaware: the fight will go on, in another place, another time. [?!?]
55) leihoma: …As parents, we cannot assume that MOE is doing the job. I am very concerned and will certainly request the schools for the contents of such programs before deciding not to OPT OUT.
61) Peace: the losers now are the women in distress. Blame who? Who called for the EOGM? What if the EOGM not called? What is the consequence, constitutionally? Couldn’t we have a rally at Hong Lim Park, cheap and good? …
66) leihoma: …In my opinion, any impressionable 14 or 15 yearer should not be imparted with knowledge that”Anal sex can be healthy….., sex can be fun… and sex is a pleasurable act…” as stated in the CSE instructions manual whether it is within its context or not.
67) Do What Is Right: I think we should take religion out of the picture. Although the new team comes from a common religious background, they have stated categorically that their personal religious views will not be imposed on Aware’s programmes.
93) Curious: [enough said]
96) brainwave: GOD is GREAT !!!
104) Ahgong: …Singapore still a conservative country and lots of christian fanatics like the COOS. They should be more sensitive to the content in the teaching materials CSE. Else, instead of helping the homosexual, they will be projecting more fear into those people who can not think for themself.
112) concerned:. Once again, the media showed their bias reporting. Actions speak louder than words. Come what may, what was evident during the meeting is that the denials of the Old Guard concerning their agenda ring false. Just glad that the new exco surfaced it.
121) Curious: [more garbage]
135) concerned: Everyone who has contributed or viewed the many comments on this thread and others should take careful note of this day and time…. Would the general well-being of women be the focus of AWARE or would it be more of the same?
140) singaaware: …The silent majority has still not spoken up.This is only the beginning. More women will get organised to throw out this new-exco…. This is a big step backward for Singapore’s women. History is made today – never has so many screaming and shouting bitches congregated in one place in Singapore before.
142) Peace: …Congratulations to the new EXCO, don’t rest on the laurels. There is much work to be done. Don’t stray. This time it will be different… review where you have gone wrong and set the it right….
144) vincesgp: There are no winners in this saga. Unnecessary costs, wasted time, and lots of bad publicity.
161) Eddie: Josie and her team lost due to their inexperience in this heavy politiking.
And my personal favourite:
167) Old BC: …..now its the start of self destruction. Now, the public knows the true color of Aware. Danger….Beware of Aware!!
pancake
Now that this is out of the way, there’s another important question that needs to be answered in the coming days: why did MOE endorse the CSE?
Sethie
I think a more pressing question is to ask why are there a group of red-shirts who come by busloads and leave in hordes after voting?
Sounds like they are just there to vote for Josie and Pushy Cats and are not even concern about women issues.
Apparently they only answer “no comment” when asked where they are from. Sounds familiar? Doesn’t take an idiot to guess.
I have learned one thing that you can’t people’s word even mdia who called themselves alternative voices. They are no different from the msm whom they condemned as biased reporting, beholding to someone.
I realised that TOC is no different from the MsM. They too are human beings who have biases, prejudices, personal interest, preferences, leaning, lopsided reporting,
not nuetral like in this aware saga.
This is my last posting. I have lost the respect for TOC who started out until now I realised its true colour who speaks with biforked tongue. It has conflict of interest too. You can see the reporting in the AWARE saga. 99% of the anti Christian postings were published. TOC is anti Christian. It is true as I suspected.
la nausée
The locus of the battle will now shift to the CSE programmes themselves. This time, it will be an issue for the Government to resolve, as it should have been from the get-go. TSM, Josie Lau et al used their disagreement with MOE’s official policy on sexuality education as an excuse for silencing an established civic voice. At least Singaporean women responded overwhelmingly in favour of a plural, uninhibited civil society. Hopefully, this EOGM will send a clear signal to anyone who seeks to close down the channels of dialogue that, in the public square, we will tolerate everything but intolerance itself.
Scherzerade
singaaware ‘History is made today – never has so many screaming and shouting bitches congregated in one place in Singapore before.’
– must be referring to the just stepped down new exco, they were the ones who started the meeting by shouting ‘Shut up and sit down’. Gave a very bad impression of Singapore women. Kiasu some more – switching off the mikes on the floor.
Daniel
Whatever the outcome, I hope that the new AWARE and Old AWARE will let bygone be bygone because both are fighting for their belief and vision/
Raquel
Video which shows the ex-AWARE president, Josie Lau giving a speech on her team’s resignation
Crowd didn’t even want to give her 2 minutes of airtime at first:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lq8jPfZTAdw
tj
oh, he’s back to normal.
Hahaha
“Old exco proposed motion to remove Ms Josie Lau’s exco. This was passed with two objections”
Actually it was 5 objections by a group of ladies wearing the red AWARE T-shirts (of the Josie’s Exco supporters) at the back, near the entrance/exit of the hall. There was a lady raising up her open right hand to indicate that there were 5 of them. I was sitting near the back, so I saw them.
So glad that the old team won back AWARE. Yes, we-are-aware.sg
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)
Thank you mirax, HT, Silim matador, and those whose name I left out… it’s ok if you weren’t there. My associate member power is only limited to getting drinks for my friends who can vote. But we all did our part. Even if our online debating managed to convince only ONE person to go cast her vote for the Old Guard… it was worth the effort.
Almost everyone who took to the floor to speak didn’t agree with Josie and gang. Chinese, Malay, Indians, Caucasians, Eurasians, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Buddhists… Straights, gays, singles, parents… it was a moving experience because they were all united in the belief that everyone should be given choices… not CHOICE.
Curious, I’m sorry. I was wrong. You were right. Mixing religion with politics is a high-octane mixture. This evening, it blew up in the faces of the people who started it. And they fled with their tails between their legs.
And peace on you too.
norfolk
As the saying goes: “Good will always triumph over evil.” Tonight, we have the answer who the evil ones are.
holdareferendum
instead of questioning why MOE endorse the CSE, have you attended the CSE? have you seen the entire training program? or are you just concern by the bit and pieces dangled out by those the josie exco??
however, there is another way,if you are not happy with MOE, ask our president to call for a referendum… he can do that since he is always so free. …..
Happy
I was at the EGM too. Josie and team showed that they had no clue as to how to run an NGO. You rally your volunteers to help out as much as possible. Instead they got an event organiser, a top law firm (when there are so many lawyers who are members), one of the big 4 audit firms, Deloitte & Touche to count the votes, and a big secretarial firm Boardroom to handle the EGM proceedings, etc. That’s how they ran up a bill of $100k for one month alone (probably close to that in this one day alone). Does Josie think this is DBS?
And even when the result of the vote was announced, it took them an eternity to reappear from their deliberations (on whether to resign or not) to say that they would do the “gracious” thing by resigning. Excuse me, when you take so long, there’s nothing “gracious” about it anymore. It just screams “THICK-SKINNED!” Especially when so many people told her she doesn’t have the moral authority to lead AWARE anymore.
As to their pastor Derek Hong who told his flock to get engaged and support Josie and “her sisters” because God has drawn a line which is not to be crossed, bla bla bla. So this team was to ensure that Singapore does not cross “the line”? Thank you very much, but we can draw our own lines, okay? Wah, this is even better than the Da Vinci Code. You have single-handedly given Christianity a bad name. I have several Christian friends and they don’t behave like that. They are tolerant and non-evangelical. Which is the way it should be.
But luckily, all’s well that ends well. Josie and team are OUT. I’m happy now.
David
Whether Josie resigned graciously, I am not too sure about it because she was given the chance to do so but she didn’t prior to the election. She simply appeared, out of no where to give herself positive image, when the old guard has already elected a new president. I rest my case now with a happy ending so far…..
WeiHan
//196) Scherzerade on May 3rd, 2009 1.11 am singaaware ‘History is made today – never has so many screaming and shouting bitches congregated in one place in Singapore before.’
- must be referring to the just stepped down new exco, they were the ones who started the meeting by shouting ‘Shut up and sit down’. Gave a very bad impression of Singapore women. Kiasu some more – switching off the mikes on the floor.//
LOL…….and you know, bitches are those that are used to good life…draw high salaries etc….and so their eyes won’t wink the slightest spending nearly 200K in one months accomplishing nothing for women excpet chaos.
HT
Yes, it was fantastic wasn’t it? The Good Guys Won.
Despite all the disinformation and distortions that have been pouring out these few days (I still find the ” concerned parents – aghast that homosexuality still exists” line the funniest – after two years, suddenly there are so many instant concerned parents Haha!)
TSM was shouted down each time she tried to speak and she is such a bad public speaker. She tried to start her first speech by listing her achievements such as first female dean of law school etc but that just inflamed the crowd and she then started shouting “respect your elders” …hoo boy, what a riot.
But I felt sorry for Josie. She at least had some poise and dignity but the others simply failed to make the cut as far as public speaking goes. Maureen continued to interrupt Josie and was finally cornered into admitting that they had spent about $90,000 in April when the constitution only allows the exco to spend a maximum of $20,000 a month. And that silly Sally, shouted at a member to “Shut up and sit down!” which drove the already antagonistic crowd mad forcing first Josie to apologise and finally Sally had to apologise through gritted teeth.
The male associate members such as myself couldn’t vote but it was a great show – the 80 year old guy next to me told me he had forgone his favourite documentary that afternoon, but it was well worth it and he was shouting and screaming at Josie & Co like an 18 year old!
Whatever you may think of either camp, I think its fair to say that Josie and her team were certainly outclassed today. The organisation, planning and leadership skills of the old guard certainly showed as they took control of the meeting. The preparation (knowledge of facts and preparation of tough questions which the Exco had trouble answering) were obvious and it was painfully clear that Maureen, Jenica and Sally all had difficulties with diction and public speaking. The crowd was already antagonistic and they just couldn’t connect. In the end it was no contest. The final whistle finally came after many hours and Josie and her team, having lost the no confidence vote, finally had to resign.
Sethie
I think 194) Peace is simply deluded. ranting out at every one being bias and against him. Oh well, now we know WHO are the sore losers.
Joel Low
I wish to congratulate AWARE on their victory in fighting for a more neutral and secular organization. I applaud those women who have come from all part of Singapore to join in the fight for this cause. This is truly a remarkable moment where Singaporean joint together to fight for what they felt is right, I have under estimated women. The TOC team has done a fantastic job giving us live report of what is going on there in Suntec. Excellent job guys. Keep it up.
The whole saga has finally come to an end and victory has been won. I agreed with some of the comments that it is only the beginning. The road ahead is not going to be easy especially after the damages that the FORMAL EXCO has done. People may start to question some of the programs that AWARE is conducting; some may have a wrong view or impression of AWARE or some may even associate homosexuality with AWARE and it’s members.
It is going to be tough, but you have thousands of supporters behind you, so do not for a second be intimidated by them. Your continual good works will speak for yourself.
One thing good that came from this saga is that we all learned that if we want something so badly, we can unite together and fight for it in a legal and appropriately way. If we continue to have this kind of attitude, we can stand for what we want in this country. This showed us also that we can exercise our right according to the Law here in Singapore and be heard. This saga has really woken up a roaring lion in all of us. We, Singaporean can also fight for what we want or what we felt is right. Isn’t that awesome!!! And we, Singaporean knows what is right or wrong and when needed we can stand up for it. For that I applaud all Singaporean.
I do not believe the Formal EXCO has done this only to raise issues and they do not really want to run AWARE. All the signs showed that they are ready to take over. The final point is they lost and they have to leave. Do not make them like heroes that sacrifice themselves so that people will be ware of what is happening to our children, they are not!! The damages they have done has damage AWARE and the good works they have done for 24 years. They deserved to be forgiven but they are not innocent.
They have not denied that their move were not inspired by their Christian values. In fact they have in different occasions quoted biblical principals publicly. They have every right to spread their beliefs and try to persuade others to pursue their goals in life but they have no right to force it upon any one or any organisation. Adding to their misconducts is the lies that they told, the assumptions that they made, the sweeping statements that they spoke publicly, the amount of monies they used without proper approval, all these are actions not of a group of people with a mission to do good, not to mention godly. I am a Christian too.
So stop giving them excuse, and if they are not repentant, they will reap what they have sowed. This has never been a war between Christianity and the rest of the religion, because even the Christians are divided in views. The reason the Formal EXCO subtly quoted from the bible is to tell all the Christian in Singapore, they are pursuing a Christian cause for GOD. In actual fact they are pursuing it for their own glory and gain. They even went as far as to asking their church to help them. When you ask your pastor to pray for you openly, you are actually announcing you need support. If the pastor is innocent of encouraging this takeover, he is then a man without wisdom and backbone. He has been used and he has begged down to people of high social status. He needs to repent. It is interesting to see his letter of apology where not even a single word of “Sorry” was found. I doubt his sincerity. And by the way, he did not ask for forgiveness and he did not do any restitution for his mistake by clarifying and admitting his wrong doing to his church member. Well, his excuse is too late because the EOGM is on Saturday and his next meeting is on Sunday. How convenient.
With all the happiness and joyfulness going on after the victory, I can’t help it to feel sad and concerned too. I am sad how the 700+ people who have vote against the vote for no confident would have voted this way. If we observe carefully those who went to support their “sisters” did not speak too much. they did not defend their “sisters” when they were being jeered or booed. That speaks very much of why they were there. They were there just to support their “sisters-in-Christ”. I felt that they knew something was not right about the Formal EXCO and their conscient is pricking on their heart. They do not believe in what they were going to do is 100% right.
The question is why did they not follow their heart? The answer is pressure. From where? From the pulpit, from their leaders, from their peers and from fear. If a pastor of their church have openly ask them to support the Formal EXCO, then many will be pressurized to do it even if they felt it is not right. It does not help when the leaders will echos the pastor instructions on a personal level and the peer pressures of knowing everyone in your sub group is going and you are not. It is the fear of being left out of their group that drives them to do it. These group of people are not stupid, they are just easily give in to their fear.
I mentioned before that I have asked pastors, leaders and christian friend regarding what is their view on this saga. Their view of course is supporting the Formal EXCO even thought I told them the sins and manipulations they have done. They somehow became blind to all that and irregardless still support the Formal EXCO. If you ask me why I support otherwise, I am known for being always a trouble-maker.
One thing I am very concerned about is how one person can caused such a dangerous divisions among the Singaporeans. TSM said it herself that she has been mentoring these group of women. that means she has been sharing and passing her ideas to the Formal EXCO and this action of takeover has been a planned event that is in their bag. What will she tells them to do next, we will watch and see.
Anyway, congrats for a victory well won.
HT
And although today’s battle is over, there are still a few lingering issues :
(1) What will the Feminist Mentor’s next step be? What/who else is she monitoring now?
(2) the $90,000 question won’t go away. I understand a police report may be filed by unhappy member(s) against Josie and her team. Certainly a member of the New Old Guard (or should it be Old New Guard – sorry, confused here) has clearly told Josie and her group that since they are only allowed to spend $20,000 a month, they have to be personally responsible for the balance!
(3) What is AWARE going to do with their new found fame?
Can’t wait for the next exciting episode – they oughta make a movie out of this…Jack Neo where are you? And I love happy endings.
iliveinuk
From a deeper perspective, i think Josie and Co set out to accomplish what they planned to do right from the start.
Draw attention to civil society groups, especially those with great influence in schools and our society.
And because of this scrutiny, what they propagate MUST and WILL be doubly checked under the public eye.
I am glad the old guard got reinstated, but i feel AWARE should not deviate from its roots by reaching out to women.
Like many of the comments here, if the Christians wanted to sell their ideas to society, they should start their own civil society group. Same thing i feel for the other opposing group promoting homosexualism, they should as well start their own group instead of making use of AWARE.
dream team
the way i read it, the new guards lacked scenario planning, their unpreparedness and akward public relations management after their successful takeover show this visibly.
in my view, the new guards were unbelieveably disorganised and could have planned beyond the takeover before hand.
on the other hand, the old guards were a highly organised and an effective lot.
the apparent weakness of the new guards just surprised me, again, it is … unbelieveable…
Illuminati
Having read some of the comments posted and reading the articles posted here, I feel compelled to share my view regarding the AWARE saga.The issue has never been about the discourse of homosexuality, nor the professed christian values that the old new committee practiced.
It is about the rule of law, and about believing in the processes of democracy.
Many of us felt that Josie and her group exploited a loophole in the constitution of the NGO, and thus was able to almost effortlessly take over control over AWARE. By that same stance, the same bylaws also facilitated in the arrangements of the vote of no confidence and thus allowing existing members to enforce a change in the control of AWARE.
I personally feel that this is affirmation of the fact that we must put our faith (pardon the off-colour pun) in the democratic system, and by doing so, we will find that with enough knowledge of the proper forms and processes that we can create the change we wish to see. We need to restore our faith that our systems do work, and should there be any cause for us to do so, we have in ourselves the ability to set things right.
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? Why, it’s us of course.
On a tangent, I must say that I’m quite surprised by the number of parents who are suddenly concerned about the CSE programme. I firmly believe that any values that should be taught must come from the context of home, and not MOE. I hardly think it’s fair for you to point fingers at an ministerial body for something that you should be doing yourselves. Don’t you ever talk to your children about the birds and the bees? By that extension, do you even talk about what goes on in the lives of your own children, or what goes on in school? I thank God for my parents, who made really sure that I had them to talk to regarding the things that happen school, and being open enough to speak to me about values such as abstinence and the moral aspects of sex and sexuality. My parents made sure that I grew up to be the person I am today. Christian parents, I need only to remind you of Proverbs 22:6. The path of moral righteousness begins from the home, and the way is set by the word and deeds of every parent.
The most unprofessional words spoken at Aware EGM:
“Shut up and Sit Down”
The most comical words spoken at Aware EGM:
“I believe I am a feminist mentor because…, please show some civility” “Listen to me, I was….you have NO RESPECT FOR THE ELDERS” “I was the first female law dean..”…ORDER, ORDER, please listen!!
The most atrocious words spoken at Aware EGM:
Dr Alan Chin: “I am from COOS and I am not ashamed to admit that. I would like to clarify that COOS did not ask its members to come here to promote Christianity. Please be rational, although $90,000 is spent, but we have recouped it by the new membership fees of $120,000.”
The sweetest words from Aware EGM
Braema Mathi: “My reputation is being put on the line and I don’t like it, but I will not follow the examples of leaders and launch defamation lawsuits against you!”
If only PAP leaders like MM SM and PM can live up to the standard of dear Braema.
We love you Braema!
Keep it up!
feedmetothefish
Breeder
Many of us pro-old guard people are watching from our houses, of course. We’re born with dicks and not allowed to vote.
It’s funny how the Josie Lau faction think that they have won in a way by “exposing” the “pro-gay” people in our midst. We don’t really need people from her gang to criticise people for being sneaky. What would the new committee have done if the Straits Times hadn’t splashed all this stuff on the front cover? Who knows what they’d have gotten away with? Don’t revise history. The Thio Su Mien faction had sneaky plans and they were screwed.
100k is an obscene amount of money to be thrown around by a charitable organisation.
Josie et al should be held accountable
Heavenly
Heaven has finally send a freshing downpour to wash Josie & Gang’s filth away. Dawn is coming with fresh air for new AWARE team to start afresh. A happy beginning to see new spring in the morning to come.
Daniel
Kudo to Braema Mathi for been the leader that Singapore need ! We need Leaders not LEEders and Clowns !
JL
#184 watchman,
quickly go, dont waste time, monday morning 6am you stand outside MOE with your request ok. we are counting on you, since FM, josie and her team didnt make it, we are all counting on you to continue their good and hard work
all parents in singapore can now sleep in peace with sure a watchman like you. you rock man! kudos!
mice is nice
now with Josie & friends out of Aware. the now, poorer Aware will have to do with less capital to help women in this tough economic times, i do hope new members can contribute their time & energy to help.
Josie & fiends should do the morally right thing, pay back in full if not nearly all the money spent, outrageous nutcases!!
concerned
Former Aware president Constance Singam, 72: ‘Spider Lilies was about the relationship between a tattoo artist and a Web camera woman. One of my exco members – a mother of three boys – told me the two protagonists’ sexuality was secondary. It was a film about love, companionship and longing.’
Constance Singam, Jan 2008 AWARE newsletter to members
“I think a Third Wave of feminism is evolving to appeal to the sensibilities of a new generation – to a 21st century sensibility, if you want to call it that. AWARE has to change and it is starting to change. A member of our Male Chapter, Bert Bjarland, is starting a Gender Awareness Group for men. Bert has led gender awareness groups for over twenty years so it should be an interesting experience. The group’s first meeting will be on Wednesday, January 30, 2008, at 7:00pm in the Discussion Room at the National Library Level 8.”
Comment to readers: Bert Bjarland is a long-time gender Finnish activist and
a expatriate to Singapore.
Advertised in AWARE’s newsletter, Aug 2008:
Indignation 2008: Queer women within feminist Singapore
Singapore’s 4th annual Pride Season is coming again this month, hosting a variety of events. One such event is a talk given by AWARE’s president, Ms. Constance Singam. She will shed some light on the place of queer women within the feminist movement. Talking about political and historical context, difficulties negotiating for respect and diversity, her personal experiences and
the future, this talk is not to be missed.
Date: Saturday, 16 August 2008
Time: 7:30pm, Venue: 72-13, Cost: FREE
Comment to readers: Pride Season is the Singapore nation-level Gay Celebration
Constance Singam, In response to parent’s complaint on AWARE Lesbian themed movie, Spider Lilies:
“We embrace diversity and individual choices, and are glad Singapore is
now more open to discussing diversity. That films such as Spider Lilies and Brokeback Mountain have been or are being screened is a reflection of this more open and, hence, more healthy situation.”(28 May 2007)
Constance Singam still owe the public an answer to all the above statements that she has made. The public would still be in the dark if the pro-gay and pro-lesbian activities of the old guard have not been brought to our attention by the former new AWARE Exco.
If the newly formed AWARE Exco continues with their old ways without any civic minded watchman sounding the alarm, they may become even more audacious in future. We have to protect our innocent children by speaking up.
JL
#210,
agree. you would expect them to be alot better than this judging from their arrogance and thick skinned mannerism.
wonder what FM would say, after personally mentoring some for almost 10 years?
maybe FM is not that FM after all
JL
btw, i was in the EGM, was seated next to strangers but we just hook up. then i asked one of them : where is FM? (i literally FM, not feminist mentor)
immediately, all around me knew who i was referring to. no one was left clueless. she and her “if they are ignorant, i will teach them” have left a permanent imprint in the history of singapore feminism.
it was very fun to watch FM during the EGM. the general attitude towards her was that of we see you no up, we no give you face. it was very clear that other than josie and her team, none of us want any mentoring from her.
i mean you look at josie and her team, see what happened to them after FM’s mentoring.
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)
Thank you thank you everyone.. great excellent job TOC.
Please dun just disappear after this… we have made a difference, and we WILL continue making a difference. Stay tuned to the other topics. Don’t get complacent. There is next year to look out for.
Goodnight, and Good luck.
Hugs from
Zefly the Tree Hugger.
JL
#191 sllim,
so free? you actually complied the garbages into a list. these garbages are not even worth recycling,
ZA
The media coverage on the AWARE saga notably biased in its reporting, leaning towards the Old Guard. I believe that it should have been done in spirit of true journalism, having report the issue with a neutral point of view.
The media (as well as MOE) should have investigated further into the CSE and the allegation made. From the finding, new guideline and protocol should be put in place to prevent future occurrence, failing which, may have adverse effect on future generation and society..
Promoting messages and providing misleading information on homosexuality acts and unnatural sex (which are illegal by law in Singapore – 337A), to students (majority are minors), should be looked into. If allegation are true, perpetrators should be brought in for questioning by the police for possible prosecution, and brought to justice.
The groups, in questioned, are disregarding Singapore law to suit their own personal/ group agenda. These (in my personal view, thru’ biased media coverage) had showcased their insensitivity nature towards Singapore and its population; a diverse society from different races, and religious beliefs.
With an insignificant victory in the EGM (and having new EXCO elected), few might realize (this victory) that this will ultimately lead to the failure of the AWARE, mainly thru’ public distrust for the latter. The well needed “victory” by newly elected EXCO members today, have set millions in Singapore to question the true nature of AWARE and its agenda. The saga have created public awareness on previous activities, and engagement by AWARE, and set public to exercise cautious, in future activities/ campaign by said organization.
I, a father of two daughters that near to their teens, used to believe that AWARE was a partial and unbiased organization, that championed women cause in Singapore. My positive impression then, had now changed to an utter disappointment and distrust… AWARE, in my opinion, should have been more upfront in its dealing, and be sensitive to mainstream women, that amount to half of the Singapore’s population.
Sadly, I’m now in an opinion the group had lost its credibility, not because the organization are in association of homosexual groups, however, due to AWARE’s stance to advocate these liberal groups and its cause. With SCE scandal being investigated, the organization could seen as a proxy to the homosexual groups, to spread their agenda/ cause into mainstream society. These said, with the understanding that these groups will not be able to engage and reach our youth in schools, if they acted alone.
Lastly, i was puzzled by some of the materials from CSE, with content describing homosexual is normal and unnatural sex is fine. Not only that these activities are illegal in Singapore and the message send had misrepresented the law. While having sex under 16 is also illegal too in Singapore, i don’t understand why should they be told of all these, it’s outright illegal for them to have (straight) consensual sex in the first place?
JL
#220 concerned
you are speaking up right now isnt it? i mean look at your posting, so long so got content, TOC also never chop anything…
you can continue, day in day out, no one is stopping you, except whether it makes sense and do people sit up and pay attention to you not?
conscious
Best part of the day? Making new friends out of complete strangers – Malays, Indians. Chinese, Europeans, Eurasians…..we laughed, we cried, we spoke our truth from our hearts. That is so special. We are WOMEN , Hear Us OUT!!
SpeedWeed
225)
yeah. claims to be a concerned parent.
fact of life is, sooner or later our children will eventually have sex.
the question here is to make sure they know how to protect themselves should they come of age to be involved in such activities.
“just say no” prevents teen pregnancies the same way saying:”have a nice day” cures chronic depression.
Personally my view on sex education is simple.
I’d teach my female children to know that its their right to choose. but if they are forced to engage in something they’re not comfortable with, aim for where the fruit hang, no man will be left “standing”. Are they prepared for the responsibility of feeding a baby 6-8 times a day. Changing diapers. Taking care of a baby is a full time job. Are they prepared for it?
As for male children, warn them that there are consequences to their actions and be prepared to work everyday of his life after school to support his wife and child, should he make the mistake of getting a girl pregnant. Can he afford to support a wife and a baby? Is he prepared for the responsibility?
Start treating children like adults, then they’ll act like responsible adults, you were young once too. The more people say no, the more likely majority of people will try to do it. Its human nature.
Protecting one’s children is to provide them a proper education and knowledge of the consequences of their actions.
Abdul Salim Harun
I would like to offer my most heartiest congrats to Dana Lam, as the new president of AWARE and to her new exco. I was there during the EOGM and am glad that sanity has prevailed. All thanks to our intelligent and brave ladies out there who have make the right choice in kicking out the Christian fundamentalists from COOS! Ladies, well done!!!
To Josie and her gang, esp the fm, please do take this as a lesson. Never ever infiltrate and hijack a secular association just because you did not agree with its activities. You can go and set up your own association and preach and say whatever you want till the cows come home and nobody will disturb you.
Yes, you may win your position in a democratic and legal way, but it is also unethical, unacceptable, and despicable to do so in such a stealthy and conniving way. By doing so, you have already cheapen yourselves and tarnish the good image of your religion and you and your team will be responsible for it. I hope that god will forgive you.
Remember, Singapore is a SECULAR country and it is not under your god or under the rule of your COOS. Please do remember that. Religion and politics shouldnt be mix. If you are not happy with how things are going on here in Singapore, you might want to consider to migrate to Afghanistan and live under the Taliban rule. That might suite you and your followers better… amen…
Q
all those who has just condemned the media, toc, etc. for biased reporting to wake up their ideas. limited reporting happens in singapore, especially when it concerns domestic politics involving POLITICAL PARTIES. but BIASED reporting? oh please. facts are facts. get your facts right.
those who think that the media/toc is being biased, please enlighten us on the bits of the EGM that we have missed out, thanks. don’t be sore losers just because the old guards won and then come blame media coverage for being skewed.
morris
Congratulations to AWARE. Congratulations to all Singaporeans who believe in diversity, pluralism and inclusiveness.
For those who now seek to demonize AWARE with accusations of “promoting” homosexuality, your homophobic attitudes only drive home the urgency of proper sexuality education.
The concept of “sexual orientation” needs to be taught to our younger generation so that they do not carry on the same misconceptions, fears and prejudices of this generation.
In particular, the important fact that sexual orientation is innate must be emphasized. Something which is innate cannot be chosen, taught, promoted, supported or encouraged in any meaningful way.
Something which is innate can only be discovered and realized by oneself. Just as a person discovers his skin is yellow, his hair is black, his eyes are brown by simple observation.
As a young man matures and gains sexual awareness, he observes his innate sexual responses to other human beings, and notices a consistent pattern of spontaneous attraction to women, and little or no arousal from men. He discovers that he is heterosexual and identifies himself as such, Analogous to the way a person looks into a mirror and discovers he has blue eyes. There is no conscious choice involved.
Neither blue eyes nor heterosexuality is chosen. The same applies to homosexuality.
The beauty and richness of nature lies in her diversity. We readily accept the fact that humans come in different shapes, sizes and colours. Why then do some of us find such great difficulty accepting that human sexuality spans a spectrum just like the colours of a rainbow?
Homosexuality is not unique to human beings. It occurs in hundreds of other species throughout the animal kingdom. Are the penguins somehow also “promoting” homosexuality since it exists amongst penguins?
For those who prefer your children to live forever in a make-believe world where human beings have only one type of sexual orientation, you must ensure that your child never goes into the real world, never enters university, because inevitably, your child will be exposed to the mainstream view that homosexuality is a neutral word, just as heterosexuality is a neutral word. Just as blue is a neutral word, and brown is a neutral word. You may be even more uncomfortable to hear that your child will also be exposed to modern-day concepts such as diversity and inclusiveness.
For the rest of us, we are happy that AWARE will continue to serve every woman regardless of her race, religion, social class or sexual orientation.
Unconcerned
To concerned:
What unruly behaviour did the old guard display?Who was the unruly one who shouted:
SHUT UP AND SIT DOWN!???That was indeed a “good” christian behaviour. Very “ruly” of a christian to do so.
Who keeps carrying out threats in throwing out the old guards when she was trying to cease the rights of any members of old guards to speak?I didn’t know that christians are allow to threaten another person. As far as i know, threatening another person is against the law, let alone being a fundamentalist christian.
Who was the unruly one who said: You have no respect for the elders when they themselves did nothing respectful to deserve any respect?Needless to say, they have no qualms throwing rotten eggs at the old guards, so who have no respect for the elders?Isn’t the old guards, the elders?
So the media was biased in reporting the cold hard facts?Who spent more than 90k, as a NGO, when only less than 20k was capped and allowed to spend?What other researches and judgments must be done to show that your feminist mentor and her mentee josie lau is nothing but an utter disgrace to christianity?
morris
To those who are taking AWARE or MOE to task for saying homosexuality is ok, I suggest you first familiarize yourself with current mainstream view regarding homosexuality in psychology and medical/psychiatry textbooks.
You can be assured that “homosexuality is a neutral word” is in perfect alignment with all mainstream mental health organizations in the developed world.
Does it make sense to teach our school children that a type of sexual orientation is “bad” (because somebody’s God say so) and then have these same children grow up and be taught the very opposite at university?
theonlinecitizen
Thanks to everyone who expressed appreciation for our coverage. Pls do look out for the main video report. It includes interviews with several people and the members of the public who attended the EOGM today.
To those who criticised us for our coverage, we also thank you. We will take such criticism and will see if we can improve in the future.
Thanks, everyone….
Jess
Looking at as many comments I can here, I am appalled at how many closed minded, ultra conservative people there still are in Singapore. I fully agree with 228) SpeedWeed and that is how I would teach my children too. I am totally disgusted at 225) ZA and sad that how his mentality will be passed on to his children.
Get real and wake up with the facts of MODERN society.
The rest of us dont support gays by saying ‘lets all be gay’. We are just saying ‘lets accept them for who they are and treat them like any other normal HUMAN BEING’
Yet all the conservative closed minded people are making and trying to force people to say ‘gays are wrong and we must not be gay’.
~disgusted.
PS sorry for using the term gays, its just a faster way to type for me.
Jiekai
Maybe the fundies will now try to infiltrate the PAP to get rid of all the ministers and MPs who failed to support them and their “traditional family values” at their time of need *chuckles*.
sllim
Back from celebratory drinks…
JL #224, public service best appreciated with a at-a-glance perspective :)
tj #188,
Gracious my a**
Self-conferred “graciousness” is no graciousness at all:
Josie Lau: “We note the outcome of no confidence. The exco has decided to graciously step down and the team hopes that AWARE will return to its original roots in the Constitution”.
Jacobite
I am enormously happy with the outcome – I think its an important victory for civil society and its nice to see real debate take place in Singapore.
I hope this bodes well for Singapore in the future.
I am also very proud of all the women who showed up today and voted the new guard out. It gave me hope.
I am a gay man – so I know what it’s like to be marginalized, made fun of and have various stigmas attached to me. Thank you AWARE for doing your bit to let some of these kids know that there is nothing wrong with them. I only wish people had presented sex education to me in a neutral fashion when I was a kid – it would have saved me a lot of pain.
I am so happy that for once, the bigots didn’t win today.
tj
@ 237) sllim on May 3rd, 2009 4.51 am
haha… and yet we can be gracious in letting them go easy by taking their words at face value… perhaps with a tinge of irony. ah, but i wasn’t there, you were.
tj
@ ZA #225
“i don’t understand why should they be told of all these, it’s outright illegal for them to have (straight) consensual sex in the first place?”
refer to http://www.asiaone.com/News/Education/Story/A1Story20090210-120806.html
under 12yo – rape
12-14yo – statutory rape
14-16yo – carnal connection
>16yo – legal age
the law does not stop people (including the girls themselves) from doing it, no? to borrow someone else’s analogy on this forum, is it better to teach them to swim (sex ed), or to build higher walls (tougher laws) to keep them away from the swimming pool (teenage sex)?
kingrant
Obviously, there did not seem to be any fear or apprehension in any one of the 1000 strong crowd of being in a overcrowded enclosed space and catching H1N1 type A virus, or swine flu! Maybe a week later, half may fall ill and escalate the WHO pandemic alert to full scale 6 level!
fairplay
TOC congratulations for giving us such a comprehensive and entertaining report.
Fargoal
I wish AWARE all the best. I hope they can bear in mind what Obama said in Chicago on the night of 4 November 2008 when he won the US Presidential election: “And to those Americans whose support I have yet to earn, I may not have won your vote tonight, but I hear your voices. I need your help. And I will be your president, too.” I hope AWARE will continue to listen to the many voices in society, especially when there are differences in views.
tozpaz2009
Looks like a victory for the homosexuals and lesbians community in Singapore, congrats.
HT
To people like Peace, Curious, topaz2009 and all other similar-minded idiots wjo seem so fixated on anal sex (repressed longings, I suppose) and who have been bitching about the stunning and marvellous victory last night, I wish to repeat to you two phrases containing two words each, which have you and your sinister ilk have been repeating for the past few weesks. The first describes the EGM and the second describes what morons of your persuasion are feeling now. They are :
(1) Democratic Process; and
(2) Sour Grapes.
Now please crawl back under whichever rock you came out of and stop obsessing over the sex lives of others. Please try your best, difficult as it may be, to get one of your own.
HT
244) tozpaz2009 on May 3rd, 2009 8.58 am
Ooohhh, what happened tozzie? Bit on a particularly bitter sour grape? Ha Ha. You should have seen FM and all her mindless sheep and all they all slunk out after they were told in no uncertain terms how unwanted they were. But thanks for the congrats anyway, and btw, go wash your mouth with soap, they say that it removes the bitter taste. What, you don’t believe me? Awwww, don’t you have faith?
HT
201) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 3rd, 2009 1.27 am
Thanks Zefly.
And thanks to everyone who posted their views, whichever camp and however radical. Even to the religious extremists, I thank you because I now know you and I now know to be watchful.
What struck me at the EGM was that it was a time when I truly felt Singaporean, bonding with people of all races, religions, ages and yes, even sexual persuasion. Fighting for a good cause (well, I suppose some would disagree). All who took part in the rejection of TSM and her agenda did so out of conviction that TSM’s hate-driven obsession-laden agenda was wrong – no one of us had anything to gain except the knowledge that we were doing the right thing. And yet, everyone persevered, spending their time posting or doing other things to support the cause. That is truly something splendid to behold.
Rat
This is the first time since I moved to Singapore more than 10 years ago, that I feel Singaporeans have the guts and courage to speak up and act against something they feel is deeply undemocratic and unjust. Not to mention that I am happy that a multi faceted Singapore has spoken up against dangerous elements of this society that tries to enforce their right wing religious agenda.
I am very happy about it and was following the excellent TOC coverage last night with excitement. I am glad that women in Singapore have shown their male counterparts the way. Maybe Singaporeans can take this example in their strive for a more humane, open, civil and gracious society.
Christian
Those who condemn AWARE’s sexual education program should really take a look at reality.
The students now in schools are having sex at younger and younger ages. By the time they turn 12 they would have already watched hours of pornography (I would know, since I caught my students watching them in class and got the biggest shock of my life. Thank you Google) If you want to check, go and look at the court records of underage sex.
I would rather they get a proper understanding of sex than repress them and they form their own impressions based from pornographic websites.
Even without such extreme examples our hypersexualised media – bombarding everyone with near naked people, with sex being norm in almost EVERY film, TV program, and advertisement, kids have already been programmed to look at sex with very, very different lenses that the adults do.
In that sense, everyone is responsible for allowing this environment to happen, because we never did say anything about it.
And if we want to do that, the starting point is surely not AWARE, because they are mitigating alot of the problems for the working, unsuspecting adults who believe that their children is still innocent about sex. Ask any teachers at secondary schools to see if sex has happened between students. We are so blinded by the case for 10A1s in the exams that we have thrown away all other aspects of our children’s wellbeing.
AWARE should be applauded for the actions.
morris
“Lastly, i was puzzled by some of the materials from CSE, with content describing homosexual is normal and unnatural sex is fine. Not only that these activities are illegal in Singapore …”
——————————————————————————————-
We need to set the record straight because there are people who are obsessed with the idea that “unnatural sex is bad, bad, bad” and using this to justify their hostile attitudes towards homosexuals.
Firstly, “unnatural sex” is practised by people regardless of their sexual orientation. Anal and oral sex feature in both gay and straight pornography.
Secondly, sexual practice is not the same thing as sexual orientation. There is a diversity of sexual expression amongst heterosexuals and homosexuals.
Thirdly, “unnatural sex” is legal in Singapore, for the benefit of those who aren’t already aware. But only for heterosexual couples.
So for those who have severe moral/religious objections against “unnatural sex”, you may raise it with our law-makers to change the law.
Curious
192) sllim on May 3rd, 2009 12.50 am
Everyday when I wake up I thank the heavens for little mercies that Singapore is not ruled by “crazies” like you and your ilk and there are still voices of reason .
Lest you forget you and your ilk belong to the lunatic fringe and are the minority.
The mainstream values will ALWAYS prevail as the majority view in Singapore, as espoused by the MOE, when it comes to sex education in our schools.
Gay anal sex and same sex marriages violate Singapore laws!
No one has a monopoly on knowledge not even you. The fringe lunatic lifestyle that you and your ilk are dicing with, will only lead to death and destruction by exotic and deadly diseases, because as the saying goes, “those who live like Hell will end up there” as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow.
And when you vilify the voices of reason please do not to forget that those from the lunatic fringe who scratch their asses should never bite their fingernails.”
See Link from Dr Frank Joseph that mortified you and your ilks and have therefore predictably labelled it as satanic. Saving lives is not satanic but destroying lives is.
http://www.traditioninaction.org/HotTopics/a02rStatistcs.html
Btw Dr Joseph’s statistics have not been proven wrong by anyone in this thread or elsewhere. In fact I have proven that he is absolutely right on his statistics on the Aids and Hepatitis scourge in the USA. See below:
Dr Frank Joseph states:
1 “Even today, homosexuals account for well over 50% of the AIDS cases in the United States, which is quite a large number considering that they account for only 1-2% of the population”
According to the CDC, HIV infection and AIDS have had a tremendous effect on men who have sex with men (MSM). MSM accounted for 71% of all HIV infections among male adults and adolescents in 2005 (based on data from 33 states with long-term, confidential name-based HIV reporting.)
See Link : http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/resources/factsheets/msm.htm
According to the CDC , the percentage of cases of AID from 2003 to 2007 (cumulative) in fact confirms what Dr FJ stated. The CDC figure was at 55% for msm and msm with injection drug use.
Dr FJ said “well above 50% !!” He is spot on!!
See Table 4 here
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/resources/reports/2007report/table4.htm
2″“Homosexuals account for a disproportionate number of hepatitis cases: 70-80% in San Francisco, 29% in Denver, 66% in New York City, 56% in Toronto, 42% in Montreal, and 26% in Melbourne.”
According to the CDC website on “Viral Hepatitis And Men Who Have Sex with Men” the msm are at ELEVATED risk for certain sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including hepatitis A, hepatitis B, HIV/AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, and chlamydia.”
Approximately 15%–25% of all new hepatitis B virus (HBV) infections in the United States are among MSM. IMO this is a serious epidemic as the gay population is only about 2% in the USA.
See link : http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/Populations/msm.htm
See Table 2 at the Link here on the 2% of gay population in the USA.
http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf
For those who wish to educate themselves on the types Hepatitis please go to:
http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/index.htm
So be warned.
To the voices of reason in this thread like singaaware, untilproven, leihoma, concerned, Peace, brainwave, vincesgp, Eddie and Old BC, et al I say never forget that you are on the right side of the equation and to you I salute and take pleasure in dedicating this AV presentation on “Why Life is Beautiful”.
http://www.greatdanepromilitary.com/Life/index.htm
Disclaimer : This AV was sent to me by a friend. Though it is from a pro-military website, I am not pro-war. I am pro-peace but will not hesitate to fight for the Truth, because “Truth enlightens man’s intelligence and shapes his freedom.”
To those from the lunatic fringe who dice with death and destruction I shall quote only this verse from Alfred Tennyson’s poem “Charge of the Light Brigade” :
“Forward, the Light Brigade!” (Read GLBT)
Was there a man dismay’d?
Not tho’ the soldier knew
Someone had blunder’d:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.”
Lastly, though the lunatic fringe may have won the battle at Suntec City yesterday with mob rule, death threats and storming of the “Bastille”,it has not yet won the war and never will so long as the mainstream values in Singapore remain intact.
Curious
245) HT on May 3rd, 2009 10.42 am
1″To people like Peace, Curious, topaz2009 and all other similar-minded idiots wjo seem so fixated on anal sex (repressed longings, I suppose)”
No, that alternative lifestyle is best left to the lunatic fringe that you and your ilk belong to.
2″I wish to repeat to you two phrases containing two words each, which have you and your sinister ilk have been repeating for the past few weesks.
(1) Democratic Process; and
(2) Sour Grapes.”
But democratic process was vilified by the lunatic fringe when the old guard lost the AGM and called an EGM because of “sour grapes”.
Why the double standard now? Why revert to mob rule, death threats and storming of the Bastille?
3″Now please crawl back under whichever rock you came out of and stop obsessing over the sex lives of others.”
And why don’t you crawl back to Hell where you came from!
4″Please try your best, difficult as it may be, to get one of your own.”
Hell is not for me. For you it is not difficult as “those who live like Hell will end up there.”
WeiHan
lunatic fringe ?!! Even NCCS does not support your view!
arheist
My apology to Readers,
‘Please comparing’ should read as Please do not compare Humans to other animals.
Sorry to all.
linda ng
Rat is right. It’s both guts and the yearn of our fellow countrymates to fight for equality and non-discrimination for the rest of us. They should be applauded and praised, not sullied like what mindless religious zombies here did.
mice is nice
if this is our “World War One”, i wonder how much bigger our “World War Two” will be….
sllim
There’s really no getting through to an un-swat-able salesman unlike Curious or those he hails as the voices of reason (HAHAHA *cough cough*).
So this post is really for anyone else (Christian or otherwise) who wrote a research paper before or studied statistics at some other level or another, who appreciates due diligence and academic integrity, who wouldn’t have it any other way for themselves or their kids.
The (Witch) Dr Joseph fiasco in its entirety: http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/04/constance-singam-that-trust-is-gone/
Here are some quick highlights:
1) Curious started to bandy a Dr Frank Joseph as some sort of authority and demanded (strangely) that the onus is on everyone else on the thread to refute his numbers. As most of us would know the onus is on HIM to establish that Frank is indeed a credible source, not least considering some of his remarkable claims.
2) I goggled and found that Frankie had no qualms claiming (without proof):
“Already college professors are saying that man-boy sex is normal and so is having sex with animals.”
“Pedophilia and Bestiality are now where homosexuality was 15 years ago.”
“Americans better start shedding their ignorance, or in 15 years, pedophilia and bestiality will be the norm and will also be taken out of all psychiatric books by the fickle and gutless psychiatrists.”
“Satan is so desperate he’s revealing his true self to millions in every spin, every whine and excuse, every alteration of the law. And the saddest thing as his disciples in the Democratic Party fight for their political life, is that so many are seeing the beast face to face and can’t see the terrible danger and damage to their souls!”
3) Sounds like hate-speech? You betcha! Now, most of us would have laughed Frankie off and left it at that but tj actually bothered to meticulously dissect Frankie’s paper @ #107 and #136 (sweet victories for anyone abide by academic standards).
4) For one reason (biblical) or another, these didn’t break Curious’ stride, he simply pretended these justified rebukes and refutations didn’t occur.
And now he has resurrected DR FRANK JOSEPH from the grave (has it been three days?) and we know somebody has thicker skin than Josie.
I leave the hapless doctor and the deluded curious to public opinion.
eh
(256) and (257)
im curious why Curious is so obsessed abt sex. do u spend all ur time worrying abt what ppl do in their bedrooms?
i think ur FM is the alpha lunatic…she even bring the book along to wave it! wow! think maybe she’ll be more normal if she think less abt sex and how other ppl have it.
HT
257) Curious on May 3rd, 2009 4.11 pm
245) HT on May 3rd, 2009 10.42 am
Wow, Peace – running out of smart comments and pseudo intellectual arguments and damning me to hell now? I should be so scared.
“No, that alternative lifestyle is best left to the lunatic fringe that you and your ilk belong to.”
Err…didn’t you see the vote numbers and the postings here and elsewhere? Ha Ha! Blind as a bat and dumb as only a fundie can get.
“But democratic process was vilified by the lunatic fringe when the old guard lost the AGM and called an EGM because of “sour grapes”.”
Why the double standard now? Why revert to mob rule, death threats and storming of the Bastille?
You left out lopping of the heads of the idiots. And yes, it was the storming of the Bastille. Yes, it was mob rule. So what are you going to do about it? HaHa! Go and choke on a sour grape will you? And talk about double standards – you’ve been moaning for weeks about how Josie won legitimately and well, now they’ve been thrown out legitimately too. No double standards here except in your deluded mind.
“And why don’t you crawl back to Hell where you came from!
Hell is not for me. For you it is not difficult as “those who live like Hell will end up there.””
I would be happy to go anywhere so long as the likes of you, who twist and distort facts, are not there because the true hell is to be with miserable hypocrites like you. At least Josie had some dignity and grace when she made her exit and you should learn from her, if not the dignity and grace, in at least making your exit from posting.
HT
Arrghh, mistake. Post intended for Curious (Sorry Peace).
Aware EGM - fastest fingers first « Long tale marketing
[...] together nice polished reports, netizens were feeding off (admittedly raw) blow-by-blow accounts on websites and microblogs such as Twitter. Byte-sized [...]
Curious
263) HT on May 3rd, 2009 8.07 pm
1″Err…didn’t you see the vote numbers and the postings here and elsewhere?
I did and that tactic is called stacking the hall with your like-minded fringe lunatics. In Malaysia it is called crony politics.
2″You left out lopping of the heads of the idiots. And yes, it was the storming of the Bastille. Yes, it was mob rule. So what are you going to do about it?”
We are going to see that you and your ilks will NEVER get same sex marriage legislation passed or the repeal of Penal Code 377A until Hell freezes over. GO and eat your hearts out.
3″I would be happy to go anywhere so long as the likes of you, who twist and distort facts, are not there because the true hell is to be with miserable hypocrites like you.”
No, true Hell for you is “Truth” and it hurts, pal but I bet you won’t even recognize the Truth when it turns around and bites you in the pink ass.
4″At least Josie had some dignity and grace when she made her exit and you should learn from her”
What she did was much MORE than that, faggot. What she did was make ALL the parents of young children in Singapore sit up and demand an answer why Aware is saying that anal sex is healthy to 12 year olds and homosexuality is neutral, when it is clear that under the Penal Code 377A ,gay anal sex is against the law of Singapore and so is same sex marriage! Have you any problem with that?
264) HT on May 3rd, 2009 8.09 pm
1″Arrghh, mistake. Post intended for Curious (Sorry Peace).”
Must be all that hate which is clouding the brain and one cannot see the woods for the trees. IMO, this is the classical first sign of dementia in old folks.
tj
oh for the need for a comprehensive sexual education… *sigh*
[B]Youth get wrong message on Aids: Youngsters think anal sex will prevent HIV transmission[/B]
http://www.aegis.org/news/suntimes/2004/ST040607.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/6677745.stm
sllim
Curious #256,
I think it’s commendable that you looked up a proper source if only to prop up that quack. Ditch the holy-roller doctor altogether and maybe you will have a stronger case. Maybe.
I hope you are more keen of truth than hell and brimstone. We’ll see.
Now, this inference of yours from the CDC site is untrue:
“According to the CDC, HIV infection and AIDS have had a tremendous effect on men who have sex with men (MSM).”
Nowhere in the CDC site does it claim a causal relationship between homosexuality and STDs. There is such a thing as mistaking correlation for causation which anyone (except Frank) working with statistics are wary of. Just ask around.
For example: There is an overwhelming percentage of opened eyes when the sun is up. But of course, that doesn’t necessarily mean the sun CAUSES eyes to open. Get it?
However much you wish there is, there is no proper peer-reviewed and validated research that claims homosexuality is a causal factor of HIV.
“According to the CDC website on “Viral Hepatitis And Men Who Have Sex with Men” the msm are at ELEVATED risk for certain sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), including hepatitis A, hepatitis B, HIV/AIDS, syphilis, gonorrhea, and chlamydia.’”
Elevated rates (which is on the website) and “elevated risk” (which is in your head) are vastly different concepts, with implications a world apart. Heaven and hell, if you like.
But we thank you for the public service announcement because the CDC website highlights how homosexuals, like heterosexuals, can lower the risk of contracting STDs:
http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/msm/protection.htm
A=Abstinence
B=Be Faithful
C=Condoms
Thanks again for the public service announcement.
Curious
To the Webmaster at TOC,
You guys are miles ahead of the MSM. Well done, keep it up.
But why do you erase my reply to : 261) sllim on May 3rd, 2009 7.03 pm ?
I posted it twice and twice it was erased. Is there any objection to my post? Don’t I get a chance to make a reply like everybody else? Please advise. Thank you.
tj
@ sllim #261
i know why i bother… it’s tiring and takes a great deal of patience but eventually people can see who are using logic and reason and who are using fallacies such as “appeal to authority” mindlessly. people can form their own judgement from observing the exchange. (i hope)
LOL re resurrecting FJ from the grave.
tj
@ Curious #256
not bad, you actually did your research this time! we’re getting somewhere after all.
i’d just like to rebut the comment re “the gay population is only about 2% in the USA” http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf
if you bother to read the document, on the first page it mentions:
1. data do not cover single gay people
2. data do not cover gay couples who don’t live in the same household
3. significantly under-reported – may be hesitant to identify themselves to the government
4. data from 1990, may have changed by now
btw, the CDC page you linked estimated it to be 5-7%.
i’ll come up with more about the “homosexuals account for well above 50% of AIDS cases” later. need to have dinner first.
for people who’re interested in Dr Frank Joseph and His Merry Statisticks please refer to http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/0/constance-singam-that-trust-is-gone/
sllim
To the Webmaster at TOC,
I back Curious’ call to have his response up. The AWARE saga, I think, has shown that even hate-speech (not that I know his will be) has a place in public discourse.
“People can form their own judgements”
sllim
HT #263,
It’s been tough on you. Faith-based sophistry is as tedious as the day is long.
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)
Curious,
“We are going to see that you and your ilks will NEVER get same sex marriage legislation passed or the repeal of Penal Code 377A until Hell freezes over. GO and eat your hearts out.”
AND YET, in a previous article, http://theonlinecitizen.com/2009/04/constance-singam-that-trust-is-gone/, in response to my comment-
“And since you know that intolerance is wrong, you seek to justify it by saying it is not gays whom you oppose but them imposing a certain ‘lifestyle’ on society.”
YOU WROTE in post #78
-”If this is true why would I want Sect 377A to be repealed? Where is the logic?”
indeed… where is the logic?
sllim
tj #244,
But I wasn’t there. I volunteered to help TOC cover the story. But logistical “garbra” on my part resulted in my withdrawal. Perhaps it was for the best, I’m way too partisan.
In any case, TOC did a fantastic job.
HT
266) Curious on May 3rd, 2009 10.11 pm
Hey Curious, your rage is causing your keyboard to drown in a sea of spittle. Go have some grapes (but unfortunately they will have to be sour) to calm down.
Penal Code 377A, marraige rights for gays – Ha Ha Ha, I don’t give a rat’s ass about that (with apologies to those that do). I just wanted to force them grapes down your throat. Just for fun and just because I felt like it and yes, I had nothing better to do. And it feels GOOD! Boy, does it feel good.
But I should stop replying to you. That sickening disease which you have is not only rotting your soul (and which has shrivelled up your genitalia – not that there was much to begin with – hence causing you to do stupid things like quote quack doctors and be obsessed with other’s sex lives due to a deficiency in your own) may be spreading – yucks, disgusting, just like you.
Poor Peace. Why don’t you go drink some hemlock? I heard its good for bitter twisted souls like yours and besides, it goes well with the sour grapes. Har har.
eh
(267) Curious
4″At least Josie had some dignity and grace when she made her exit and you should learn from her”
What she did was much MORE than that, faggot. What she did was make ALL the parents of young children in Singapore sit up and demand an answer why Aware is saying that anal sex is healthy to 12 year olds and homosexuality is neutral, when it is clear that under the Penal Code 377A ,gay anal sex is against the law of Singapore and so is same sex marriage! Have you any problem with that?”
if ur darling josie has got a sense of shame and dignity and grace, she would have set up her own organisation in the first place – no need to be such a hijacker.
and to use such name calling really reflects so badly on you who seem to be claiming to be a superior and more civilised person. what is wrong? have you considered counselling? i think you may benefit from anger management courses.
if ALL parents are as concerned as you say where are ALL the mothers voting for her to be in Aware? have some mathematical sense. 761 women bussed in from her church is not =ALL mothers in singapore.
but then again, some minds r simply too miniscule to contain ideas and what some call common sense seeing there’s too much bigotry crammed in.
unfortunately
HT
274) sllim on May 3rd, 2009 10.59 pm
Sigh. Thanks. I admire people like you, TJ, Zefly and Mirax who have the patience to provide intelligent counterpoints to the rantings of Peace. You should note that he is now starting to talk in the royal “we”. Clear case of delusion. Uh oh…or it could be a secretive cabal of morons planning moronic plans. Oh..whatever…
HT
Arrgggh Again I have mistaken Peace for Curious. I really have to stop reading Curious’s posts. His rantings do take a toll – …(yikes, sorry again Peace).
tj
sllim #276, thought you went cos there was mention of celebratory drinks… haha… i’d love to go but work roster got in the way. oh well, any case i can’t vote. was enjoying TOC blow-by-blow account throughout the night though.
Curious
275) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 3rd, 2009 11.02 pm
1″YOU WROTE in post #78 ”If this is true why would I want Sect 377A to be repealed? Where is the logic?” indeed… where is the logic?
Since you are your ilks won’t accept me as a friend of the GLBTs then I have changed my stance for your own safety’s sake.
HT
The inevitable has happened which is the sale of commemerative t-shirts (“Shut Up and Sit Down”.
I understand sales go to AWARE. Check it out yourself.
Curious
272) tj on May 3rd, 2009 10.53 pm
1″@ Curious #256, not bad, you actually did your research this time! we’re getting somewhere after all.”
The impossible I shall do immediately, miracles only take a little longer, pal.
2″i’d just like to rebut the comment re “the gay population is only about 2% in the USA”
Be my guest. Do write to the UCLA, School of Law and cite the link below:
http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf
3″Btw, the CDC page you linked estimated it to be 5-7%.
Then the scourge is even worst that I thought!
4″i’ll come up with more about the “homosexuals account for well above 50% of AIDS cases” later. ”
Be my guest.
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)
“Since you are your ilks won’t accept me as a friend of the GLBTs then I have changed my stance for your own safety’s sake.”
If you ever were a friend of the GLBT’s instead of merely doing it because it was fashionable, you would seek to understand why they had to shout to be heard, not say you support them, then tell them to shut up and sit down.
Curious
287) Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) on May 4th, 2009 12.20 am
“If you ever were a friend of the GLBT’s instead of merely doing it because it was fashionable, you would seek to understand why they had to shout to be heard,”
The GLBTs are free to live their lives as they wish in Singapore but they must know about 377A and that same sex marriage is not allowed. And they need to understand that the mainstream values are different and they need to respect that as we respect the GLBTs by not despising them.
Many gays are very sensitive and talented people and I used to know one and we had no problems respecting each other’s orientation at work.
“not say you support them, then tell them to shut up and sit down.”
If you were the chairman of the EOGM what would you do if the mob was baying for blood and refused to allow the officials to speak? But you are right it was not right to shout “shut up and sit down.’ That was an admission of defeat.
If I were the chairman of the EOGM I would have given the unruly mob a WARNING that if they did not stop behaving like the great unwashed and uncivilized people I would adjourned the meeting to another date to be decided!
If they jeered and booed me again then I shall just adjourn the meeting and walk out with the rest of the exco. The mob will then have no rights to make any decision after the meeting was official adjourned due to lack of security.
In fact I am still wondering if the election of new officials was legal if no notice was given for elections of officials before the EOGM.
tj
@ Curious #284
i think you’re right. miracles take a little longer.
“Be my guest. Do write to the UCLA, School of Law and cite the link below:
http://www.law.ucla.edu/williamsinstitute/publications/GayDemographics.pdf”
you have a selective comprehension or what?!
1. data do not cover single gay people
2. data do not cover gay couples who don’t live in the same household
3. significantly under-reported – may be hesitant to identify themselves to the government
4. data from 1990, may have changed by now
this comes from the precise document you linked to. FIRST PAGE. which just goes to show that you did not bother to read it, and just quoting random numbers without understanding what it means.
i have lost my respect of you. ’nuff said. the others who have called you various names which i considered uncharitable are right. i stand corrected.
sllim
Curious #281,
I am trying to provoke you into a rational discussion. Do try.
Pertaining to ALL the stats I allegedly miss (which I didn’t):
Once again, you and frank must REALLY REALLY get it in your heads that there is a distinction between a correlation and a causal relationship. “Jumping to conclusions” is an apt phrase here. Don’t just take my word for it. Ask anyone who does work with statistics.
“But the rectal skin is not designed for vigorous and violent sexual activity and it will tear and the Aids virus will slip into the blood stream. Also condom in anal sex has a higher failure rates, according to research.”
I haven’t come across that research. If it’s true, and it just might, it will also apply to heterosexuals. Condom “failure” by the way, will be the causal factor, NOT homosexuality.
Nobody said Frank was completely wrong. Just that he wasn’t a credible source by ANY proper academic standard. Your staunch refusal to denounce him as a credible source is telling. Refer to the garbage he spouts without evidence.
You are right about “elevated risks”. I read “elevated rates” on one of the links you provided. Thanks, I learnt something r.e.a.l
Having said that, a couple of lines below “elevated risks”: “…many MSM have not been adequately vaccinated against viral hepatitis.” I hope you will concede that’s crucial.
For the rest of the STDs, I refer to my comment on condom failure. Nice proper work nonetheless (I am sincere in saying this).
I hope you are not highlighting Alex Au as though I buy into his writings without reservations? (Like Frank, he has a heavily vested interest in his work, so that’s my frame of mind when I read his stuff) I have no qualms disagreeing with him if proper evidence or arguments contradicts his ideas. Evidence and argument, not faith, drives my convictions.
I noted this para in his essay:
“She did not appear to be aware that of the 280 HIV-positive women Singapore had as at December 2004, 172 (61.4%) were married and 29 more (10.4%) were divorced or separated. They are most unlikely to be homosexual or sex workers, as the nurse indicated as risk groups.”
Having said he has a heavily vested interest, I believe he takes himself a little more seriously than Frank (no talk of magical creatures) and provided a proper source i.e. MOH
ALL three of ABC have their place. Au merely pointed out that “that people who promote the ABC strategy tend to do it as a moral hierarchy”. I don’t know if this is true. In any case, He didn’t have a low opinion of ABC per se.
P.S. I am happy, delirious even, to talk about Hell or how I will burn in it if you can produce statistics/facts showing that it exists.
sllim
HT #279,
Thanks for the endorsement. Lockeliberal (christian) and La Nausee (religion-friendly) are leagues superior at this and should definitely weigh in above me. Maybe Curious is too negligible to register on their radars, who knows?
Disappointing hor, that Curious is the “sharpest” Josie supporter?
eh
(286) Curious
If you were the chairman of the EOGM what would you do if the mob was baying for blood and refused to allow the officials to speak?
if I came in so shamelessly and if I still have some moral sense, i would apologise for my shameless actions instead of continuing to try and talk abt aware’s achievements as though they were mine! who the heck wants to go through her 20 minute speech and resumes of her cronies. the egm is called for one purpose and one purpose only, luckily they put a stop to her self serving powerpoint presentation.. if not the meeting sure end at 12am.
this is not a bloody corporation, not her company. this is an NGO, she is serving the members, not the other way round. if she doesn’t understand that civil space is not abt rampaging in and grabbing seats, and shutting ppl up, then she should just follow her exco’s advice – shut up and sit down.
HT
#286) Curious on May 4th, 2009 12.48 am
Thanks for your entertaining post of what-if, what-should-be and what-could-have-been regarding your imagined chairmanship of the EGM. Actually, for once, you raised some interesting points and just to show you that I do deserve to go to hell, let me give you some other perspectives on your points which clearly had been anticipated and planned for by the old Guard.
“If I were the chairman of the EOGM I would have given the unruly mob a WARNING that if they did not stop behaving like the great unwashed and uncivilized people I would adjourned the meeting to another date to be decided!”
Yeh, that was fun! We heckled and we jeered. It was all coordinated, you know. Haw. What a hoot. Having said that, I do admit that Josie was admirable, keeping her poise and dignity – can’t say the same for the other (recently deposed) exco members.
“If they jeered and booed me again then I shall just adjourn the meeting and walk out with the rest of the exco. The mob will then have no rights to make any decision after the meeting was official adjourned due to lack of security.”
That would have been a fatal error. If you had done that, the unruly mob would immediately construe it to mean that you had abandoned the meeting and that gives the floor the right to appoint a new chairman to chair the meeting and conduct it. That is precisely the strategy for meetings such as this to gain control of the meeting. Now it can be disputed of course that the floor could do so, but by then the damage would be done. There would be two excos and it is quite clear that third parties would probably either recognise the old AWARE people or refuse to deal with either, in which case Josie’s position would be untenable as well. She would then have to sue the other exco (using her own money, mind you, can’t use the society’s money for this) and that’s easily $20,000 just as an upfront deposit for the lawyers and odds are, she would have lost in court.
And since the exco were in charge of the meeting and hence the security aspect, calling off the meeting would be a dangerous strategy (as there was no act of violence) because if it was deemed a wrong judgment call she could then be held responsible for the costs of the meeting and each member who was there could also sue for losses incurred if they felt that she had wrongly adjourned the meeting.
Now the exco was asked by the old AWARE members several days before the EGM to meet and coordinate the logistics (which would have included security) but they failed to do so.
So even if it was held that it was a correct judgment call to adjourn the meeting (ie that it was dangerous), they would have had no defence at all to the charge that they failed to provide adequate security (can’t even blame others). Members could then sue them for not providing sufficient security. Either way they are screwed. It was a major tactical error to refuse meet the old guard “to coordinate the logistics”.
“In fact I am still wondering if the election of new officials was legal if no notice was given for elections of officials before the EOGM.”
Yes, if Josie had called off the meeting (but see discussion above), she might have been able to to get another patsy to file an application to call the meeting unconstitutional. But she didn’t. They resigned. So whether or not the meeting was constitutional has become a moot point as Josie et al have resigned.
What could Josie have done?
If she had wanted to struggle on, the right (but very embarassing) way would have been to refuse to resign despite the no confidence motion and carry on the meeting. She should have just sat there, smiled a the unruly mob and said that we can’t carry on the meeting until you lot quietened down and let the mob scream till they are blue in the face. And wait out the mob or until they get chased out by Suntec and then call the meeting adjourned. Now in that case to remove her, they would then need to have to go to court and it would be difficult as caselaw is ambivalent on this and the constitution is not clear. Costs would also be a factor. But if Josie et al had indeed refused to step down, the public pressure would be tremendous and certainly Josie would also face the ire of govt leaders who had already given hints that the AWARE dispute should be solved by the members.
But Josie et al didn’t do any of this. They resigned and annouced this to the rest of Singapore. They can’t turn around now and retract that (and I don’t think they want to anyway). And the rest is moot. That’s why I take my hat off to the old guard. This time round, the planning, the tactics and the legal thinking behind all of it was just perfect.
Now most people in Singapore are not used to how racous society meetings can become. I can assure you that compared to some other types of society meetings elsewhere ( eg a dockyard workers’ union meeting) it was very civilised.
So Curious (urrgghh, I managed to spit out the right name this time), ultimately its a numbers and shouting game. Planning is paramount. Apparently FM & Josie et al having planned so well for the first round, failed to plan for the second round.
But I am sure the war is not over…hasta la vista baby NOT.
sllim
Curious #286,
“… we respect the GLBTs by not despising them.”
The quality of your character really shines through wtih this one.
Strangeangel
#225 concerned
Advertised in AWARE’s newsletter, Aug 2008:
Indignation 2008: Queer women within feminist Singapore
Singapore’s 4th annual Pride Season is coming again this month, hosting a variety of events. One such event is a talk given by AWARE’s president, Ms. Constance Singam. She will shed some light on the place of queer women within the feminist movement. Talking about political and historical context, difficulties negotiating for respect and diversity, her personal experiences and
the future, this talk is not to be missed.
Date: Saturday, 16 August 2008
Time: 7:30pm, Venue: 72-13, Cost: FREE
I’m not afraid to say that I was at that talk. And most of what happened was that she strongly maintained her standpoint to most of the women why AWARE cannot be pro-gay – for the simple reason that AWARE’s main focus is on serving women from ALL sections of Singapore’s society, regardless of race, religion, class and sexual orientation. Becoming pro-gay would mean that AWARE would be putting the needs of one group above the needs of the rest, and that is not what AWARE wants.
And i believe that up till today the old guard has kept to that stance, regardless of what the christian fundies want people to believe.
Cool Head
The whole saga was blown out of proportion not because it touched on contentious issues but due to mishandling of communications on both sides, and also spread of allegations & use of terms with strong connotations both on-line & in print, by supporters of both camps. And anyone who still believes journalism & printed word is only about facts is dreaming, it has always been opinions (by nature subjective) supported by facts giving weight to those opinions. Facts are facts but danger is differing interpretations of facts and worse, extrapolating to support unproven theories. Joining the dots is one thing, but joining invisible dots & jumping to conclusions is hardly constructive.
Just how much of the ‘allegations’ have been proven, with solid evidence, to date? This applies to both sides in this saga.
- any solid proof the old AWARE really deliberately became sole platform organisation to exclusion or decline of other platforms/causes related to women? That sole platform being deliberate promotion & encouragement of gay-related issues in S’pore? No doubt the gay lobby would love such an established platform as AWARE, whether or not true more than a month ago, in aftermath of the EOGM you can’t imagine they would pass up this opportunity to get a foot in. But up to the AGM & recent years, is there any solid proof AWARE’s original aims have been clearly shifted to intentionally become solely pro-gay?
- Much has been said about way Josie & Co became the exco: stormtroopers, coup, militancy, stealth, corporate raiders etc. Is there any real, solid evidence they deliberately planned it as a coup campaign? Unless any of us were flies on the wall to witness their own conversations prior to AGM, all we are doing is connecting invisible dots & jumping to conclusions. People scoff at the various “coincidences” but there’s no reason to doubt it without hard evidence to prove otherwise. If you win top prize in a lucky draw, is it due to good fortune or good planning? And what’s so unusual if most of them came from same church but didn’t know each other or very well before? Can we say we really know all or most of our colleagues in same company, residents in our HDB block or condo, people in our school? Many people felt Josie & Co were deliberately hiding these ‘links’, but maybe there was simply nothing sinister to it, maybe they really had no intention to come in on a religious stance. This whole religion angle seems just played up by media & on-line discussions.
Frankly, if the AGM results was really due to a carefully thought out & executed campaign, it’s inconceivable the ‘coup planners’ didn’t complete planning for post-AGM. The contrast between the supposedly slick AGM takeover & post-AGM chaos, by a group of educated women with considerable working experience, is just too great to give much credence to the organised coup theory.
Cool Head
One thing surprises me is all the furore has very largely bypassed someone who faded into the background. The question is why did Claire Nazar quit so suddenly? Her resignation left the door ‘open’ for Josie to take over, or at this point are ardent conspiracy theorists going to say this was all part of the overall ‘conspiracy’? Yet she has been spared all the verbal abuse when her quick resignation suggested cold feet & running away from the problem. Who knows, maybe if she stuck it out & asserted herself as President, maybe commonsense would have prevailed & whole thing not become such an acrimonious mess. In my opinion, she was the biggest failure especially after being entrusted by old guard to lead AWARE, at least Josie & Co had guts to step up & no matter how you think of them they at least had courage under fire for this period of blistering shock & awe from their opposition.
Rather than accusing Josie & Co of all sorts of unproven insidious, sinister & criminal deeds, at the most can just say they were really naive, unprepared, inexperienced, poor EQ, mismanaged interpersonal communications, didn’t adapt to changing environments to avoid rubbing people up wrong way, unwilling to open up & receive outside help, didn’t understand mentality & ways of NGOs etc. Basically failure in change management & communications, not adapting from corporate style they were used to. Which is really typical of Singaporeans in unfamilar situations eg. numerous stories of insensitive S’pore managers overseas imposing S’pore style management on resentful locals. Maybe this can be case study for S’pore managers how NOT to manage: international studies have shown S’pore managers are very good in what they do & know, but really hopeless in people management compared to foreign managers.
Congrats to Dana & new team, hope they can tidy up whatever loose ends in aftermath of EOGM, then move on & focus on task ahead of advancing AWARE, which should be run BY women (AWARE should be inclusive, but about women; NOT men, foreign workers or any other 101 causes) for ALL women throughout S’pore society (is there enough done to reach the elderly, uneducated & non-English speaking women?) and harnessing the swell of support into many active volunteers & participants for their programs. For sure some would have joined solely for EOGM and will look blankly if asked on their plans to be an active volunteer, but hopefully enough women would be sufficiently stoked up to put their time & energy where their mouths are (based on the very vocal support for the old guard during the EOGM). No point being a single-use disposable matchstick, AWARE & other social organisations need regular power, best if cost-effective like rechargeable batteries, solar & wind power! Other civic groups must be drooling wistfully, thinking if only they have the members & passion seen in AWARE, just what they could achieve….
Curious
292) eh on May 4th, 2009 1.58 am
” if she doesn’t understand that civil space is not abt rampaging in and grabbing seats, and shutting ppl up, then she should just follow her exco’s advice – shut up and sit down.”
In case you did not notice Josie plus 5 others were nominated by Clare at the AGM in March.
Clare was nominated to be the president by Constance Singam, an old guard and Clare was returned unopposed! Josie was just a member under the presidency of Clare, in a democratically held election.
But when Clare resigned 11 days later the ball was passed to Josie since NO ONE wanted to be the president. Josie did not go to the AGM to be president!
Therefore, the only grabbing Josie did was unfortunately the challenge handed to her by her colleagues at the new exco, unlike the mob rule, death threats, and storming of the Bastile we witnessed at Suntec City on 2 May.
Why don’t you add a consonant “h” to your moniker and make us all laugh at your appalling ignorance. heh. heh !
mice is nice
why is someone speaking as if Josie & fiends are some lower secondary school kids on their 1st group project.
even if they were school kids, why they dun listen to other seniors who cautioned them not to act out of line, be too big for their own shoes? why? too arrogant isn’t it? mama mentor, also another cup less than half full…
Curious
293) HT on May 4th, 2009 2.13 am
1″That would have been a fatal error. If you had done that, the unruly mob would immediately construe it to mean that you had abandoned the meeting and that gives the floor the right to appoint a new chairman to chair the meeting and conduct it.”
I see again you did not bring some sour grapes to the table. How’s the memory today? Please don’t blame Peace again for my congenial post.
For your info if the meeting had been cancelled the mob or the great unwashed had no right to hold a meeting at all. The best is for the exco to resign later and then call an election. This would cost another $20,000 but its the fault of the unruly mob, the great unwashed and the lunatic fringe.
2″Yes, if Josie had called off the meeting (but see discussion above), she might have been able to to get another patsy to file an application to call the meeting unconstitutional. But she didn’t. They resigned. So whether or not the meeting was constitutional has become a moot point as Josie et al have resigned.”
But the election of officers of the “latest” exco was done BEFORE Josie’s exco resigned. So was the election legal? Was it in the Agenda? Was notice given to other members who did not attend the EOGM?
3″But Josie et al didn’t do any of this. They resigned and annouced this to the rest of Singapore. They can’t turn around now and retract that (and I don’t think they want to anyway). And the rest is moot.”
The fact they resigned is correct. The question is whether the election was properly held before they resigned.
4″I can assure you that compared to some other types of society meetings elsewhere ( eg a dockyard workers’ union meeting) it was very civilised.”
This must the understatement of the week. Were there dead threats in a dockyard workers’ union meeting?
5″So Curious (urrgghh, I managed to spit out the right name this time”
Yay! Your memory is coming back. Must the Resveratrol in the grapes.
6′But I am sure the war is not over…hasta la vista baby NOT.”
Lets not put the horse before the cart. May 2nd was only a small battle.
The war has not even started and it will when you and your ilks apply for Penal Code 377A to be repealed and for same sex marriages to be made legal in Singapore. That’s when the grass will be trampled by an elephant stampede!
Curious
294) sllim on May 4th, 2009 2.22 am
“Curious #286, “… we respect the GLBTs by not despising them.” The quality of your character really shines through wtih this one.”
The quality of mercy is not dead, unlike what you think. How can the mainstream folks respect the GLBTs if they despise them is a paradox wrapped round a riddle in a maze of contradictions and conundrums in your mind.?
sllim
Curious #299,
So where are these contradictions of mine? I presume you are unable to read minds, so you must have read something to suggest that.
Anyways, have you checked with anyone (Christian or otherwise) who works with statistics to find out if there is a distinction between correlation and causal relationship? Do you intend to? Eventually? Or might the answer be too corrosive to your belief system?
Here’s a study that shows there is a correlation between unusual first names and crime example to elucidate my point:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/121639144/PDFSTART?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
It has nothing to do with religion or sexuality, so you might be able to see straight :) unlike Frank on what should or shouldn’t be inferred from statistics like Frank’s.
joseph
#295, do you mean Claire Nazar is the spy sent to infiltrate aware in december?
theonlinecitizen
Hi everyone,
As previously mentioned in another article’s comments section, please refrain from using swear words or vulgarities – even if they’re in asterisks. They will no longer be allowed.
And no more personal attacks. Else, such commenters will be barred from further commenting.
Also, please do not become lewd with references to certain body parts or sexual act. These too will not be allowed.
Lastly, pls keep your comments to within 500 words.
Thanks.
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang)
Something I picked up from another post. Pretty intense stuff, although they may not be entirely verifiable.
HT
298) Curious on May 4th, 2009 7.56 pm
And again, your meeting points are incorrect – well, even if you had been the chairman of the meeting (really wished it was you) – the Bastille would still have been stormed and the guillotine used liberally, as it was.
“For your info if the meeting had been cancelled the mob or the great unwashed had no right to hold a meeting at all. The best is for the exco to resign later and then call an election.”
That’s where you are again incorrect (regular habit of yours I must say). Its obvious you have had no experience of storming Bastilles, sitting on that couch of yours sulking all day long. Once the chair abandons the meeting, the other side grabs the chair and the meeting continues. That’s real life, not some delusional theory.
“But the election of officers of the “latest” exco was done BEFORE Josie’s exco resigned. So was the election legal? Was it in the Agenda? Was notice given to other members who did not attend the EOGM?
The fact they resigned is correct. The question is whether the election was properly held before they resigned.”
Actually notice was given if you care to look at the fine print. Sigh. You do need to read more carefully. Let me give you a gentle hint so you can tell your FM not to waste more money on lawyers – go read the requisition for an EGM carefully especially item 3. As for the death threat, agree with you – hilarious wasn’t it? Don’t know how Josie (and all the reporters there) at the press conference managed to keep a straight face.
“The war has not even started” – wow, scary spice. Only thing missing is the background theme music. Yawn. Ok, whatever… but next time, please be more prepared ok? Then it will be less one-sided and more entertaining.
sllim
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) #303,
Great read. Thanks!
I am following up and borrowing the mentioned “The Great Derangement” by Matt Taibbi from NLB.
You (or Curious) might be interested in an excerpt published in The Rolling Stone:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/20278737/jesus_made_me_puke
HT
306) sllim on May 5th, 2009 12.05 am
Zefly (aka Joshua Chiang) #303, Great Posts – everyone should read these articles to understand truly what we have just faced down.
This is why we need to consider this very carefully – consider the orchestrated approach, the internet disinformation, the carefully manufactured lies that have been spun and are continued to be spun by certain posters, especially regarding the CSE. Is this truly some silly ladies led by a even sillier FM or is there something deeper?
From the beginning of this saga, I had railed against the steeplejacking of AWARE as something far more sinister than simply taking over of AWARE itself which is a modest organisation at best. The gay/antigay argument including whatever crap about 377A was just a side issue. The main issue was the thirst for power by fanatics and AWARE was just a testing ground. Fortunately Singaporeans have taken it into their hands and have bitchslapped the fanatics down.
But as so ominously voiced by Curious (then again, Curious is such a funny chappie that you just have to laugh and not take him too seriously – anyway, he takes himself far too seriously as it is), these cockroaches won’t go away. Seizing upon controversial issues which society needs to consider objectively and injecting hatred and lies into them – polarizing society (eg Christians vs others), that’s their methodology.
We were lucky this time. They were so inept that it was beyond belief. They forgot to plan beyond the first step. They did not forsee the public reaction. In fact, it even became funny when we watched them being spitroasted in public. But they will be back. We have to be watchful.
mice is nice
re post #306) HT on May 5th, 2009 12.35 am
i believe so too. a more robust attack will need a more robust defence. this time got Feminist Mentor, i can’t wait to see who the next big thing is!!
^.^
SpeedWeed
i believe in texas, the term used with regards to josie and company would be.
Big Hat, No Cattle.
smallvice585
Hi Cool Head #295,
I think Claire Nazar had bit off more than she can chew when she first nominated Josie and Gang. She most probably didn’t knew them as well as she thought she had. I think when she realised that COOS is involved and she has been sidelined at every ExCo meeting, there is not much she can do other than quitting her role of President. The only other alternative was to rise to challenge and that risk escalation of conflict with the Christian Community. The safest route is thus to quit and maintained a low profile through out the Saga. If the Old Guards had lost the EOGM, they will now probably be lynched for disrupting religious harmony.
For people who wants to find out more about the latest development within the Christian Right circles, please visit http://www.religiousrightwatch.com
Curious
304) HT on May 4th, 2009 11.38 pm
1″And again, your meeting points are incorrect – ”
And you have a monopoly of knowledge? That’s a laugh.
2″well, even if you had been the chairman of the meeting (really wished it was you) – the Bastille would still have been stormed and the guillotine used liberally, as it was.”
And that to you, no doubt, is a civilized behavior?
3″That’s where you are again incorrect (regular habit of yours I must say). Once the chair abandons the meeting, the other side grabs the chair and the meeting continues. That’s real life, not some delusional theory.”
Oh, What happened to the Registrar of Society’s rule that societies must conduct its affairs in accordance with its constitution? Maybe you don’t give two hoots about its constitution? Do you know what is a constitution to start with?
4″Actually notice was given if you care to look at the fine print. Sigh. ”
Can you post a copy of the Agenda for the EOGM or item 3 and lets see the fine prints.
5″As for the death threat, agree with you – hilarious wasn’t it? Don’t know how Josie (and all the reporters there) at the press conference managed to keep a straight face.”
That’s because she is not afraid of death threats. She has intestinal fortitude (read guts) which is more than I can say for many people in this forum.
6“The war has not even started” – wow, scary spice. Only thing missing is the background theme music.”
You better believe it because the mainstream values will NEVER allow the lunatic fringe to hijack Singapore society for their nefarious activities.
7″but next time, please be more prepared ok? Then it will be less one-sided and more entertaining.”
Next time the grass will be trampled by an elephant stampede !
ZA
Although my views (on biased media) and comments on CES workshops (by AWARE) were not well received by most in here (see #230 – ZA on May 3rd, 2009 3.01 am), i believe that my point found on 2nd paragraph been set to motion.
http://sg.news.yahoo.com/cna/20090507/tap-350-moe-suspends-sexuality-education-231650b.html
As mentioned before, the AWARE saga had generated much attention in the public, that those with neutral views, even the “bo-pian” ones were pulled into understanding the “cause of the takeover and the issues surrounding its CES workshops. It’s had already been a talking point to million and became “coffeeshop/ market topic” to ah pek, aunties, students, NSmen. AWARE will not only known as controversial women group, but will also be synonyms homosexuality and its cause for promoting it.
For the benefit of those here, allow me to clarify my stances.. I’m not against homosexuality, nor am i against Christianity. Being a Singaporean all my life, I was brought up in believing in RESPECTING OTHERS, and but forcibly instilling “liberal education” to (my) children, without the parent’s knowledge is disrespectful indeed.
Also i wish to re-iterate, that I am not against AWARE for its association to homosexual groups, however, to its stance in promoting homosexuality and “mis-educating” students on illegal acts in Singapore. A lot of damages need to be look into by the New EXCO, in order to gain public trust or negative opinions towards the organization.
I’m sincerely wishing them the best on the road to recovery! Gambatte Kudasai!
tj
@ Curious,
i’m back from my sick leave to fulfil my promise. apologies for the outburst.
1) anal sex and HIV/AIDS
no one will argue with you on this one. it is true anal sex is related to higher incidence of HIV transmission due to the microscopic damage on the lining of the colon.
2) homosexuals and hepatitis A
very limited study cited by Dr FJ. it’s very easy to find other studies which say there is no difference between homo-/heterosexual populations
Ross, J D C, Ghanem, M, Tariq, A, Gilleran, G, Winter, A J (2002). Seroprevalence of hepatitis A immunity in male genitourinary medicine clinic attenders: a case control study of heterosexual and homosexual men. Sex. Transm. Infect. 78: 174-179
Raquel
A tribute to Thio Su Mien, too funny not to share
[...] update or read a summary of the events and look at the pictures, please visit the following url: Live Coverage of AWARE EOGM! If you cannot access the website because of the high amount of activity on the site, please do [...]
i wonder if its any point to head down to Suntec to view the EOGM. I actually wanted to sign up but then quite pointless cos Associate members cannot vote. Are non-members allowed to view the proceedings?
I guess this EOGM is going to be delayed significantly.
Anymore developments regarding the no-confidence vote not being allowed to be tabled?