now you know you are wrong

Now that he had apologized the public should forgive him and concentrate on the next item on the list: to get the new ex-co out of Aware.

Despite the apology, damage to AWARE has already been done.

now start telling us the truth about who is behind this whole aware saga…

There might be foreign political interference present at the EOGM today.

Gregory Vijayendra is AWARE’s new attorney appointed by the New ExCo.

Mr Vijayendra also holds a regional leadership position in the Virginia-based political organisation call Advocates International.

Gregory Vijayendra

There might be foreign political interference present at the EOGM today.

Gregory Vijayendra is AWARE’s new attorney appointed by the New ExCo.

I thought the word he used is “REGRETS”! Same was coded on Straits Times! I think TODAY have misinterpreted him! That’s not a true apology!

Yes, that legal counsel for the New Guard from Tann & Rajah: Mr G Vijayendra.

TOL should link or reproduce info from Ovidia Yu’s blog that report on the background of this lawyer who is a member of Advocate International – an evangelistical Christian Organization who won some prize for leading Advocate Asia…..

Anything wrong ?

Well, birds of a feather flock together ….

So, agenda setting, meeting proceedings controlled by new exco..
Any dispute last word with their legal counsel, another COOS type…
3 hrs only to conduct EGM,

It is going to be a tragic end to the EGM..

Dear All
Please read what Ovidia Yu writes about Greogory Vijayendran the lawyer from Rajah and Tann.

http://ovidiayu.wordpress.com/2009/05/01/messrs-rajah-tann-why-why-why/

Messrs Rajah & Tann have been appointed to act as AWARE’s legal advisors to attend the EGM to be convened on 2nd May 2009 to address legal queries relating to, and raised during, the EGM including the matters intended to be transacted, AWARE’s constitution and meeting law and procedure.

according to the EGM email I received from the new AWARE ExCo.

If Messrs Rajah & Tann were appointed as a company to act, why–of all their many lawyers and given the touchy fundamentalist Christian vs Everyone Else situation–did they pick Gregory Vijayendran to represent them?

Gregory Vijayendra, who says on his work profile that the award he treasures the most however is the Good Samaritan Award conferred on him in Washington DC in October 2008 by Advocates International for his leadership of Advocates Asia
Bearing witness of Jesus Christ through the legal profession by encouraging and enabling advocates to meet locally, organize nationally, cooperate regionally and link globally.

I am sad that even a pastor can make mistakes.
But its good to know what mistakes have been done.
Else, people do not know there are mistakes.
This is wrong impression.
Correct me if I the wrong.

Dear Mr Hong,
Your apology rings hollow; it’s too little too late. The damage has already been done.

If you sincerely regret your action, you would have called on your congregation to abstain from attending the EOGM.

“I regret that this matter has caused concern and unhappiness,” said Mr Hong in a statement to the media.

He agreed with Dr John Chew, president of the National Council of Churches of Singapore (NCCS), “that the pulpit should not have been used in this Aware saga”.

1. He apologized for misusing the pulpit, which is technically the church’s internal policy and has nothing to do with other organisations, AWARE or otherwise. Effectively, he stands corrected for violating church policy, not for supporting established mainstream moral values.

2. Damage done to AWARE was not caused by Pastor Hong’s pulpit message. It was caused by the 2 parties involved in the conflict: The old guard for deviating from AWARE’s inital founding vision to support causes other than women’s rights, which has plenty of proof but yet they have vehemently refuted, and the New Exco for their blitzkrieg style takeover and insensitive way of handling the matter, especially for shutting out the old committee members.

3. Interestingly, the new team was accused of being mostly backed by churches, but no one had mentioned that the old team was being in a way backed by an offshoot of society who are not “women” nor your typical “men” per se (no offence intended), unless we wish to amend science and biology to say otherwise, or perhaps AWARE may consider a name change to AGARE.

4. It had always been the Bible’s position that groups embroiled in worldly concerns are none of Christians’ business as God’s chosen elect, lest they get entangled and compromise their stand to secular standards, so do not interprete the released message wrongly and think the church’s view is in any way affected. Bishop Chew’s and the NCCS’ message did not say the church is backing down on the Christian stand against the chosen practice of certain individuals regarding gender roles, it is merely a call to Christians to stay above and apart from the petty struggles of worldly trends.

We shall now just wait for the emails he sent out ala TSM to be floated and replicated online…

Something good came out of the Aware saga whatever the outcome. Now parents know what had been going on CSE programme…

So sly. He already his achieved his aim – which is – to back the members of his flock. This takeover plan is so well crafted I have to take my hat off to him. This is the real Puppet Master we are looking at.

To #3 smallvice585

I totally agreed with you, it took MOE, the netizens, the ministers, the head of NCCS, other modern christians to force Derek Hong to come out to say “sorry”. Why was it so difficult for him to do so openly and sincerely? Damage has already been done and there is no turning back if COOS members have taken his heed to register themselves to vote against the old guard today. The degree of damages can only be measured by what will happen today. This is a sad scenario which could be avoided if the new guard and its church can be more opened and transparent instead of playing hide and seek for the past one month.

I hope old guard is well and AWARE can be brought back to its secular status again.

tO #14) Blackwhiteorgrey?

You can keep your argument within your religious compound and nobdoy will say you are wrong if that is your value and religious believe. However, if you are generalising your stand in this multifcated society where people are now well educated, modern and open thru the content of an internet, your points may not stand on its feet. This is not a totally conservative society, but neutral. If Dr Thio even considered neutral is a negative things, than I feel sorry for her for being so skewed in her thinking, no different from taliban mentality.. She doesn’t fit into Singapore society.

gemani

Always two are there with the Sith : Pastor and Thio

Sorry to see a man of god lying through the teeth in church.

253 SA

Hey same unit man! And where is Anakin Skywalker in this?

Would Pastor Hong now express “regret” if he were not chastised indirectly by the NCCS President? I think NOT. Anyway, as smallvice585 pointed out, the damage has been done. But the damage is not to AWARE alone. For me, this whole mess raises the scary issue of underlying Christian fundamentalism. I have spurned efforts by Christians (esp born-again Christians) to convert me to their beliefs. And all this, despite me telling them from the very outset that I am a Buddhist! All I ask of Christians is to respect my religion as much as I respect yours.

Doc Frankenstein, Josie Lau would be the young Anakin… encouraged to give in to her fear and hate by the evil Emperor Palpatine who manipulates behind the shadows.

But on a more serious note… “I regret that this matter has caused concern and unhappiness” is not the same as “I am sorry for causing concern and unhappiness”. It may be semantics, but I can slap you in the face and “regret” that you feel unhappy. But that doesn’t mean I’m sorry for what I did. I am just expressing regret for what you feel, not what I did.

he sure knows how to choose a timing….why even bother to issue an apology at all now that all parties are already at suntec?

Most of us do not normally get involved in an external organizational squabble. It is none of our business unless the organization start to reach out and influence our children via the educational system. We are all given a free will to choose for ourselves how we want to live our live and bear the consequences of our decision, as long as it does not impact fellow citizens.

If all our focus is on the power struggle within AWARE, and whether a church should be involve in this, I think we have been distracted from the key issue. What is important to parents are the contents of the CSE programme taught to our children in school. The following are some key points in the Instructor Handbook for conducting the CSE in school to our 12 year olds! :

It is extracted from the following website:

http://voicethread.com/share/468061/

1. Anal sex – can be healthy or neutral if practiced with consent and with a condom.

2. Pre-marital sex – people might place pre-marital; sex as negative, but it is really neutral.

3. Virginity – is a concept which is really difficult to fix, traditionally virginity is related to the hymen. But perhaps we can also think of virginity as a state of mind?

4. Pleasure – sex is a pleasurable act. This is the reason why people have sex.

5. Fun – sex is meant to be fun. However like all things that we enjoy, there are some rules and regulations for sex, which you must set for yourself first. Also, you need to be able to trust the person in order to have “fun” with him. Will he stand by you in case things go wrong?

10. Homosexual – people have different preferences for their partners. Homosexuality is perfectly normal. Just like heterosexuality, it is simply the way you are.

The way the information is presented to our children promotes promiscuity among the young. Go ahead experiment and enjoy it children, it is fun. This I cannot agree with and I think all concerned parents should make an effort to stop our school from teaching our children the wrong values.

Arghh, nothing to worry about. What have this society evolving into ? Even pastor also can lie without flushing.

We had learnt from this aware saga that some people are assumed to be more right than the others. They will not back off easily, extremely difficult to negotiate, no compromise, no balance. Ask that Singaporean guy (Currently in Jail in Indonesia for terror) he also belief strongly that he is right. The danger lurked even in our own backyard.

to 19, honourable david:
You are entitled to say what you said, and blackwhiteorgrey is also entitled to say what he said. Why the f you ‘attacked’ him personally for what? I saying this because you fire the first salvo which cannot be unresponded. If you didnt say your piece and I wouldnt have written here.
And judging from what he said, he presented logical, fair and balanced arguments – what have you? Mere loose high-sounding words forming good readable sentences but lacking in clear relevant points.
to 23, anon:
Apolopy is an apology – why so picky for what ? Look at various official apologies made for the top fugitive’s escape, for the wrong million dollars payout to a telco, for the girl who felled throught the hdb flat grille incident. I invite you to scrutinise all these apologies which I presumed you may have had, and then compared with what the pastor said. Please, give us some of your valuable comments on all these apologies too.

To # 17 Gemami

I read a couple of your comments on other issues. And you appear reasonable , articulate and intelligent. But it appears really silly to attack a person’s character. By all means attack his ideas or his strategies. Unless you have a hidden agenda and by nature you are not straight.

Have you all notice that not a word of “Sorry” in his statement. He is not sincere. He only regrets this matter has caused concern and unhappiness ….. He did not say he is sorry that his action has caused concern and unhappiness.

He is playing with the words. ….. it is not an apology at all.

“I now stand corrected” is not the same as “I am sorry that I …..” … too much pride.

Really good at playing with words.

What sort of apology “I now stand corrected. I undertake to be more sensitive to similar situations in the future.” In other words, he is right and only stand to be corrected as far as encouraging female churchgoers to “be engaged” and support Aware president Josie Lau and “her sisters” in the women advocacy group, in a weekend sermon posted on the church’s website. Why he did not retract his encouragement and at the same time, advised his female churchgoers not to be engaged, be neutral and think and vote independently?

All of us are not fools. Come on, be upright and pray to your God for His wise guidance to state categorically that you want to apologise publicly for the misguidance at the pulpit. From the newspapers, we know thatr he had done it on 2 occasions at the pulpit. How many other occasions he had done it openly and closely we don’t know.

To 28) Bystander

Be wary of who you want to believe in those guised under expensive suite. Do not let your eyes decieve you, everyone is speaking about what they feel of the whole saga, and I am not the stand alone who believe in the same. So I hope it is time you wake up too if you still have a thinking mind. I have the right of my opnion and to feel nausea of the new exco members. I am sure the public outcry at today EOGM speaks louder than my word, you should monitor TOC live report instead of tailing me unnecessarily.

After pulling out the nails, the wound will remain and may even have left some scars behind. A sorry is a sorry, but will you do it again ? Lets us guess ? Tattooing may help, least forgetful mind gets nutty again.

To 32 David:
Thanks very much for your advice. To each his own, dont need go round telling others, you should this or you should that. And, have you heard this – empty vessels make the most noises.
Best wishes.

Do you SIngaporeans believe in or stand up for anything in life at all? Why are you crucifying Ps Derek Hong for speaking up and standing up for what he believes to be true and right, within the compounds of a religious facility? What is his alleged lie? What is his crime? Now of the people among you who has no sin, let him cast the first stone!

James Tan, are you a Singaporean? Do you socialise with Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Catholic, Christian, straight and gay friends, like I do?

If so, you should know that we live in a multi racial and multi religious society. The moment that any one absolutist religion steps out and urges its flock to support the takeover of a secular and inclusive NGO based on what their god says in their bible, then we have a recipe for disaster.

In fact, I hope you are not Singaporean, because with all due respect, you don’t know what it means to be a Singaporean, and how our country has struggled for years to maintain peace between races and religions.

To observer 36:
Its very very strange I read the assumptions you make. Why you said that this is take over. Take over of what ? Old Aware (basing on reports read and circulated on the net, even some of it were admitted in main press) teaches or taught that having anal sex is acceptable if one feels so, or virginity is a state of mind etc etc, sorry I cant quote all in details and full, you can search more yourself. So you mean all these are ok and right teachings to young minds, and acceptable ??The new Aware exco is not taking over (they want to change things that were run, right? and some old exco members were officially still present right? in the midst of the new one) you mean Singapore will fall into chaos ???
So is it that ‘bad’ or ‘wrong’ when the new exco wants to change things (and you jumped to conclusion that when they change things, you assume Singapore will fall into chaos..
Our government will be definitely be mor concern right or not?
Hello friend, so where is the solid basis of your statements that you raised to James??

Pastor Hong uses such eloquent words to express his so-called public apology. Actually what is needed is a simple universal word, “sorry’ and he can’t even do that. He is not sincere at all. Its so sad that this man who holds himself up as a man of moral authority lack the moral fibre to do just that.

To 34) bystander.

You said ” empty vessels make the most noises.” For once I agree with you on the quote and that is exactly how I felt the same about the new exco members. Now there is this concensus coming from you.

But did anyone ever wonder y did the ppl from COOS get involve? did anyone noe wat the exco teaching the teenagers.. if anyone cud agree dat a women org will teach the teenagers dat anal sex can be healthy, virginity is jux a state of mind n pre marital sex is acceptable.. wat will become the future of our kids? will ranting abt how a pastor did wrong, n jux enjoying the cat fights change the harm they did to some students, y dun anyone jux b concern dat wat the old AWARE teaching in schs.. seriously, does anyone reli wan ur child to learn all those things??

[#37 Bystander]

… “Old Aware (basing on reports read and circulated on the net, even some of it were admitted in main press) teaches or taught that having anal sex is acceptable if one feels so, or virginity is a state of mind etc etc, sorry I cant quote all in details and full …”

I thought it was reported just a day or two ago in The Straits Times that our govt has had no complaint regarding the sex education program being run by AWARE in several schools.

Would you be able to specify the report in which AWARE allegedly advocated anal sex as being “acceptable if one feels so”, and claimed “virginity is a state of mind etc”?

Bits and pieces of information are not sufficient for validation purposes but the fact they have been uttered can sully the reputation of those concerned.

//43) m on May 2nd, 2009 8.41 pm But did anyone ever wonder y did the ppl from COOS get involve? did anyone noe wat the exco teaching the teenagers.. if anyone cud agree dat a women org will teach the teenagers dat anal sex can be healthy, virginity is jux a state of mind n pre marital sex is acceptable.. wat will become the future of our kids? will ranting abt how a pastor did wrong, n jux enjoying the cat fights change the harm they did to some students, y dun anyone jux b concern dat wat the old AWARE teaching in schs.. seriously, does anyone reli wan ur child to learn all those things??//

Contrary to your assumption, majority of Singaporean’s view regarding sex is not a victorian or a christianised one. Anal sex etc are legal in Singapore. In many countries, it has been proven that proper sexual knowledge imparted to teenagers reduced instances of STD, HIV etc….What is it about sex that we have to keep mum about real sexual practices that are in existence.

Sweety m,

Whatever kinda sex our daughters want to have in the future their husbands, it is up to them to decide, and it is in their personal bedroom, do we always have to use a microscope to peek into how our daughters have sex, and in what kinda position with their husbands? Goodness! And by the way, stop thinking about sex all the time! Gees!

Bystander,

I understood very clearly the arguments put forth by Observer, on the contrary, it is you whom I don’t understand. What exactly is the solid basis of your argument to Observer????

see, i knew he lied to MSM. why he apologize? did the NCCS head exert pressure on this pastor to apologize to the public? i feel his apology not very sincere. personal opinion only.

TO #14) Blackwhiteorgrey

Generalisation, fallacy and self-induced brain damage in your scribblings signal to our society that that we have tolerated certain religion too much for comfort. What’s next after the homo peeps? Disabled people? Mixed bloods?

abortion next.

I have no problem, Derek Hong, in you and your gang believing in an imaginary friend upstairs. You can believe in the tooth fairy, father christmas and the easter bunny too if you like. As long as you all play within the church, ok? There now, run along.

Observer, please point out: where lies the lie? Or is this so-called “lie” imputed by the many clever arguments people rant about? What is his crime? If he has committed any crime, surely the efficient authorities would have march right into his office, don’t you think? We need to take off our colored shades to see issues clearly and not resort to accusing folks of religious fundamentalism or racial slants. We also have existing laws defending both of these. Let me ask again: why aren’t the authorities arresting Ps Hong if he had breached the OB markers? By the way, I know what it means to be a Singaporean, with much empathy and sympathy though.

38)

there’s the double standards again.

lying is not a sin?

I apologize for having a belief that, we’d expect someone who “claims” to preach the “word of god” to be of higher moral fibre and honesty.

By calling for the church to support, one is indirectly approving of josie, FM and company’s actions over the past 2 weeks.

Let me put simply.

Even if some manages to break my lock on my door to enter my house, does someone have a right to enter my house?

Lets go one step further.

Even if i dont lock my door, what right has someone to enter my house without my permission?

They sneaked their way in, now they got kicked by the majority out. Take a bow, don’t let the door hit them on the way out.

As a christian myself, I hope that other christians can notice the damage that these new-age groups are doing to others. It is this particularly narrow worldview of evangelisation and promoting your point of view that is so damaging to everyone outside of your church. There is no unity, no inspiration, no enlightening, only schisms, discord and anger.

And just to bring some perspective – if everyone in a church believes that everyone individual is right, then there will never be any consensus and everyone will break up (which by the way, can be easily traced in the church history, right from where the other christians broke up with the Catholic Church during the Reformation). This is the results of such strong, stubborn insistence that one is more right than the other – and will probably happen to your church if you insist on going down this road.

There MUST be understanding amongst all peoples – and this understand does not come from insisting on your view!

If until now you do not understand why the new committee was voted out, then it is surely very sad to hear – can it be that one can be so blinded by one’s faith? The issue here is not the homosexual, it is ONLY, and always has been, the usurping of the old committee in the underhanded, dastardly way.

I wonder does the pastor know what kind of damage he had made to the church’s name, from the perspective of an atheist like myself. Deep down inside, he should know what he has done wrong. Hopefully, he does.

On another hand, no complaint from parents to MOE, no problem with the sex education programme. Period.

Virginity is a state of mind…I like that. Seriously, in this age…think about it.

HI James Tan,

“…within the compounds of a religious facility”? Apparently, things aren’t that simple. The Pastor definitely knew what he was doing then. Think, don’t be blinded by faith.

Reformation allowed us to pursue the truth and separate us from the lies.

#54 Christian
Well said. I, like you, am a christian. I agree with what you have written but only one correction…. Josie and her gang are not new-age. New-age believes that all religion are the same….. Josie and gang are Extremist, Opportunist and Cultist. In fact they are believers that make use of words and pray on the emotions and weakness of others for their own selfish goals. I have seen them in many churches in my 24 years as a Christians. Trust me they are everywhere and if a church has not checking on their leaders and pastors …. they eventually become like that. Sad but true.

52) James Tan on May 3rd, 2009 3.19 am
“Observer, please point out: where lies the lie? Or is this so-called “lie” imputed by the many clever arguments people rant about? What is his crime? If he has committed any crime, surely the efficient authorities would have march right into his office, don’t you think?”

James … I agree with you but you have forgotten something very important here. Although it is not a crime to lie, it is a sin to do it and if a person do it intentionally there remain no grace for him not to mention a pastoral figure. As a pastor of a church when he stand up for any cause, he is standing in agreement with that person. The pastor have stood together with them and even ask support for them, so he is not innocent. He was not arrested because he broke no law but he agreed with liars, stood by them and did not correct them. He is guilty in the law of God and should be disciplined by his covering superior. How can one teach about holiness and God when he himself is not a doer of the word.

Wake up James ….. do not defend for the sake of defending. You are being unreasonable here. Call sin “sin”. James do not defend him, is he is innocent he can defend himself. I have worked with many pastors…. Most of them (99%) do not deserve my respect after I knew them better.

I know that no one is perfect but when one’s intention is wrong, God is only a tool they used. Sorry to shake your faith…. it is the truth.

Our faith rests NOT in men, not even pastors, monks, imans nor priests, and therefore mine is not shaken. Thank you. For these religious leaders are all human beings, after all, and many of all faiths have failed and fallen miserably. It is plain to see. It is also evident to me from all these comments that many have jumped to judgment and condemnation based on what little hearsay, speculation and allegation they have gathered. Please, not everything is what it seems, including your numerous insinuations of lies and alleged cover-ups. But if you folks choose to judge and condemn others with what the little half-truths you have picked up along the way, then you are no different from the accused. Well then, go ahead and cast the first stone, you “righteous” ones.

Pastors are never wrong. Those who go against pastors’ words are sinning, no matter who you are. Everyone who supported the old guard is sinning.

60) James Tan on May 3rd, 2009 5.13 pm
Dear James
Is there something wrong with your brain? The Pastor has come forth to confess his own wrongdoing and you dare say Pastgers are never wrong. Therefore you are wrong!

[#60 James Tan]

“Pastors are never wrong. Those who go against pastors’ words are sinning, no matter who you are. Everyone who supported the old guard is sinning.”

Are you sure of what you are saying? That sounds like the talk of a religious fundamentalist or of a bigot.

So pastors’ words are infallible? James, you need counselling.

61fairplay – can you tell sarcasm and skepticism when you come across one?? Anyway, I do not share 60) James Tan’s allegation. Pastors (not referring to any religious leader in particular, including monks, priest, etc, etc) are never perfect. They can be wrong sometimes – very, very wrong. Think I better change my nickname to…uh hmm… “Non-apostle James Tan” in order to distance myself from the other James Tan :)

this is scary.. how come there seem to be so much talibanist language here … wait.. they r using christian terms and names…

aiyo..APOSTLE JAMES TAN, supporting the old guard is a sin? u never read bible? go read the bible, i dun think ur bible has that written there.

Not once did Jesus abandon his belief nor abandon his people. Jesus claimed there was a betrayer in the midst. You deny them at a very crucial moment fearing your own skin. If i see you i will call you a liar henceforth. Jesus was prepared to be crucified for his belief – you? you ran away fearing for your skin.

To: James Tan ….

COOS statement by their pastor….

“We have not, nor will we, allow our pulpit to be used to intentionally teach anything that would arouse social tensions, divisions and unrest”

Later on Friday he wrote an apology letter :…

” SENIOR pastor of the Church Of Our Saviour Derek Hong has issued a public apology for using the pulpit to give backing to the Association of Women for Action and Research’s (Aware) executive committee in their dispute with the group’s previous leadership.

“My actions on the pulpit have aroused some tension in this saga,” he said, “I now stand corrected. I undertake to be more sensitive to similar situations in the future.”

What does that tells you about this pastor? A liar. Lying to the public and even have the cheek to release public statement.

59) James Tan on May 3rd, 2009 5.09 pm
60) James Tan on May 3rd, 2009 5.13 pm

Pastors are not always right. In fact many uses their privilege position to manipulate and get what they want. You are blind and engaged in blind faith. It will eventually destroy your faith when you see the truth. In every church no matter how big politics are a norm and the pastors are the real champion.

No one pastor in Singapore is contented with what they need, that is why their pay increases WITHOUT LIMITS as the church increase in size. Tell me why does a pastor needs to draw millions of dollars? He cannot survive with 5K or 10K. I worked in a church before and I worked with many pastors over my 24 years of Christian life…. 99% of them are liars, manipulators and worse … some are adulterers…. Does that surprise you?

No one is perfect, true, but the pastors are under a high standard of judgment than a normal believers. Everyone have a right to judge those who are in office in Christianity, the bible said so…. “judge them by their fruits” READ YOUR BIBLE.

When you ignore that fact and still willing and silently adhere to their deception, you are not better than them because you stand in agreement with them. Do not find excuse for them.

There you go – judge and condemn them for all I care, dear judges. Let him who is without sin, cast the first stone. And you are without sin? Yea, right. I rest my case.

What I can’t stand is that he had the gall to apply that line drawn by his God to the whole nation. So presumptuous. I would say there’s a line drawn around his church. Please don’t preach outside of that line.

see wad people are. lies lies lies lies pastor also lying. tsk. how can u expect your followers not to lie?

[#68 Happy]

I concur.

Some religious people think their religious teachings are applicable to all.

I would term that as religious bigotry or parochialism, or irrational thinking.

rgds

I am not worried about the $ but more of the values challenged in this nation. Sunday service has never been more showy and hypocritical . Last week and this week’s sunday service at COOS is so dramatic though not as interesting as X men origins but its not that bad afterall since it is live. The senior pastor ,gave his speech before holy communion and the generic meaning of his speech is that he is not wrong to use the pulpit and if the media wants a apology he will give it to them. He is not apologetic at all.

So what if he is a vicar ? It doesnt mean he has more actual moral authority than anyone in this earth. If he can use his stage to promote some ideas and actually had great influence on his member to do such a thing in AWARE , what about others? Professors in unis can use their lecture to promote their ideas . There is only a very very fine line between propoganda and education. So which one is it for him ?

As a member of the church , i felt disappointed bcos the works that all christians have done in Singapore is going to the drain just bcos of such issues. He isnt wrong to preach about gay and lesbian issue, ok it is accepted that Homosexuality is a deadly sin, i dont question the rational of his preaching but questions his functioning . Why must he arrange Dr Chin and his wife to give their testimony last sunday ? Why at a time like this ? Wont it add more fire?

71)
education invites people to challenge and criticise established ideas. propaganda is unchallengeable. in this case it is quite clear why COOS is pretty much fear mongering and propaganda, since practically all their supporters’ blood pressure rise the moment there is some opposition to their statements.

(67) Apostle James Tan! Stop masquerading as Non-apostle James Tan! Thou shalt know the tree by its fruit, and we can recognise the wolf in sheep’s clothing even when you change the nick!

How can you practise such subterfuge?? Live up to your morals!

One of fanatics was a “Ben So” from River Glory Ministries, is this the same outfit Advocates International ? Maybe ST should spin-off to see if there is another angle.

Man can fall, but not God. Man can change but not God. If the Muslims believe the Koran is true, the Christians and the roman catholics believe the Bible is true, the Jews believe in their torah and talmud, the Buddhist believes in their zen and Hindus their scriptures – then the discussion of homo sexual acts become real and urgent.

You see the act of homo sexuality is against all the main stream religion scriptures and its teaching. Such behavioral problems has to be counsel and not condone as “normal”. Has anyone enter a man hole? Ask the foreign workers or the sewerage contractor who has to clear our sewerage system by entering the manhole. 2 things have to be done: 1 wear protective clothing, 2 wears an oxygen mask. The corrosive gas can even kills, so stretch your imagination when man had sex with another man in their anal or with women’s anal. This is given to the wild imagination of unnatural sex, even with animal. It is their sensual body satisfaction that they seek – therefore it is always a behavioral problems.

Such acts of homsexuality is against the interest of inter-faith religion body, and totally against the natural world. Even animals seek their opposite sex to form a family. With such behaviours – they have becomes worst than animals, without intellect but under the influence of the sex goddess Lilith.
Repents! for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

71) jacinta on May 3rd, 2009 11.10 pm

Great post. But could you elaborate more on what the good pastor said during his service on 3 May? You mentioned that he wasn’t at all apologetic and I can certainly believe that.

why is Pastor Hong allowed to walked freely after all he has said?

mice is nice, Pastor Hong is a powerful man. just like Durai. we dun anyhow sui sui offend him k? skarly he sue our pants off even though we maybe right.

this episode is over. move on peeps!

re post #78) peace on May 4th, 2009 6.44 pm

so powerful dun need to apologise le mah… he trying to test other people’s limits, regret only when people are upset.

i am so poor, he can take my pants if he really want. i poorer than a church mouse…

mice is nice: then why! are you allowed to walk freely after all the misdeed that you have done in your life? its just a small mistake and at least he does apologise for it , did you for yours?in january , US president also apologised to the muslims .
peace: it is ,not that pastor derek is powerful and you dun seemed to know what you youself are talking.

To summaries , what Pastor Derek is trying to preach , is that we should love the homosexuals, but hate homosexuality, it maybe that some may not understand or he did not say it directly .
isnt it obvious that the media is trying to make the matter big ?
isnt AWARE suppose to help troubled women, but why does it lead to homosexuality?
hope no offence is taken .(:

love homosexuals ? hate homosexuality ? Does it even make sense? It is a irony isnt? Are homosexuals practising homosexuality ? Then? How can you seperate the identity and person ? You can seperate the act and the identity but dont forget this: the identity caused the person to act and not the act caused the identity.

He is not wrong to preach god’s word, absolutely not wrong but is his attitude and functioning. These issues has been very sensitive , we are not democratic , we are asian democratic. Thus , it is only right to respect each others beliefs and choices. As a psychologist, i uphold only one thing: I guide and advise , i dont instruct and decide. Because who am i to decide for the people about their choice? Neither me nor him. Isnt? If it is wrong , just say and advise in a softer approach and not ” HERE people, my stand is such….. so if you are a christian follow it .” Is it guiding or instructing?

Imagine this : a plain water , someone poured too much red dye. And now it looks blood red. Passion ? Yes . But i think is over-powering . Decision then choice. We can only influence them when people are deciding not when they have decided.

So at the end of the day, i dont care if others think he is a “powerful” person or not. The fact that things are said, things are done. More hurts has been created than souls being saved. So is it a win-win situation or is it a hands down defeat?

Dont forget, it is easy to make the media and gossip die down but not easy at all to salvage the broken hearted . …..

re post #81) /peace/ on May 4th, 2009 9.57 pm

if what Pastor Derek Hong made is small mistake, no mistake can ever be too big liao…

why so personal? now you ask me about all the mistakes i made in life? i where so big shot?

////isnt AWARE suppose to help troubled women, but why does it lead to homosexuality?//// [quote]

what you talking? are you saying 2 very different things at the same time? i dun understand & dun want to quote out of context…

What was wrong with Pastor Derek’s action. He was speaking to his own group of congregation & naturally showing support (like any groups could have) to his members providing pastoral care. The gay group would have done the same to the community. Like for like.

It gets out of hand when some fellow recorded his every word he said at the pulpit & release to the press in the fervor of all the AWARE saga. Its ironically no freedom of speech here for Pastor Derek.

I wish people are more objective. Much as the homosexuals can hold your own beliefs & opinions, so does Pastor as well which in all sensitivity he did not offend the gay community at the pulpit but simply asking for support to Josie Lau’s team amidst all the loud voice in the AWARE sage.

Hope people would go by facts and learn to respect every voice – gay or non-gay.

84) Kanchi on May 5th, 2009 10.01 am
“What was wrong with Pastor Derek’s action. He was speaking to his own group of congregation & naturally showing support (like any groups could have) to his members providing pastoral care. The gay group would have done the same to the community. Like for like.”

Kanchi, you questioning is valid but you have to remember that you and me may be able to do it and get away with it but the pastor is a leader and as a leader you do not just speak out whatever you like or felt because it affects others.

He ia completely right to support his members and provide pastoral care, but it is done in a public setup it delivers a message to the general public. As a leader of a church, when your flock saw what you do they will follow suit. So in silent, he has already use actions to garner support for them. What is improper here is not only did he use the public platform to show his support so that others will follow suit, he openly declare his support and told his flock to do the same.

You might argue that everyone have their own choice and they can choose whether they want to support this cause. You have to understand that when the pastor as a leader told his flock what they SHOULD do, it pressurized every individual to follow suit. They will be pressurized by their leaders, peers and friends to support this cause even if they do not really know what is happening.

That is the reason why people are unhappy over the pastor public speech. He can always show pastoral care privately, support them in his personal capacity but he chose to parade his support. He knows what he is doing.

The infiltrators also knew what they are doing when they ask to be prayed for publicly. It is more than just trusting God and prayer, it is the agreement that they want to get from the church. Once everyone start praying for them there creates a certain bonding regarding the issues being prayed for. This bonding causes one to ignore the logical mind but engage only the emotional part to make decisions. This is dangerous and the pastor should know this then firstly to allow the AWARE issues to be made a church issue and to use his influence to manipulate his flock.

He should reconsider to use this tactic in the future as his deeds have now been made public too. Now not only his superior will be watching, the public will be watching too and he will be actions will be discussed openly.

Kanchi, remember this “what you sow you will reap”. He is reaping what he has sowed, he sowed it in the public, he is getting it from the public, this is the law of God, law of the universe and the natural law of creation. He cannot escape.

re post #85) Joel Low on May 5th, 2009 2.29 pm

in other words they are fully aware for their actions.

“great power comes with great responsibility”

86) mice is nice on May 5th, 2009 3.43 pm

Yes … you are right. Ignorant may not be an excuse but willful intention is evil in it’s core …. no matter how you decorate the packaging.

Way to go …. Spiderman.

i agree with you totally joel …..way to go……

Pastor has no fault in supporting AWARE members in church service but bible caution us against such political struggles.
It has no merit as it deprived members of the church ’s focus on saving souls and purposely getting large group of church members to vote for aware collectively is wrong. But that does not mean christian cannot join AWARE as member but not to act collectively purposely for a motive. If Josie and gang has done it GOD’s way rather than her way, things might have turn out differently.
For GOD is in control every seconds, nothing can escape him. Why be hasty? Pastor are human too they also err but one bright spot in all this is that AWARE ’s foxy tail has come out. Issues like CSE with homosexuality program will not be forgotten by the public and MOE will be vigilant.
No parents would want their kids to be experimental in their sexual orientation. Is against GOD and definitely against LAW in sg.

to a person in position of influence, is such an error acceptable? to trivialize it is to condone his actions.

unless he was drunk when he said it. being drunk is not against the law… :P

Wow. There are still so many Singaporean netizen talking about a pastor asking for prayers for the (now) erstwhile members of AWARE who happened to be members of their Church? But what was wrong in that act? Surely Christians, Buddhist or Hindus or Muslims in Singapore goes to their respective temple leaders to seek for blessings and prayers too. This is really becoming a silly mocking of the so called “Liberty” in the Singapore’s society as it shows how “liberal” Singaporeans really are. Liberal means a ‘marked by generosity’; one is truly liberal when one accepts the rights of freedom to express by others even though they might not agree with them, instead there is a community of online people that harbors this angst and have petty squabbling over ‘Who’s liberal and who’s conservative’. Such acts only presented the fact that everyone is in fact still very conservative in their thinking even though they claimed to be liberal!! This is a joke!

BTW.

mice is nice on May 5th, 2009 11.17 pm to a person in position of influence, is such an error acceptable?

-Religous leaders are not gods that is why people worship supernatural higher beings or deity or GOD or whatever they are known as but not the leaders. The leaders of temples are also striving in their own faith to reach a GOD’s perfection however they are still human beings which means there is always room to stumble. If people worship another human being then there is something seriously wrong !! In other words,only GOD is perfect and error free. Humans?….never.

let’s not be jugdemental, lets teach our children the correct value , it is not just the Pastor who must teach the correct values, but we as every parents must and will teach their children what is right and wrong

Nobody likes to be told that he is wrong.

I just believe that Pastor Derek teaching is correct and please do not pin him down, He is not agaist you, our me or the world. He is just fighting against satan, as satan has made people in the world confuse and you see Satan wins when we do not know what is right or wrong. So what if you think you have teach the correct values who can say you are wrong

Pastor Dereck is just doing his job as a sheperd looking after his sheeps. He is not agaist all you people.

He can pull himself down and say that he is sorry. Can you say and do the same thing like him saying you are sorry when you are wrong.

Look we are all sinners, God did not forsake us and God will never forsake us.

So please, do not pin Pastor Derek down I know he is good and like a father to many people.

He is a good pastor and he will always be a good pastor to me.

91) Quack on May 20th, 2009 3.53 pm

You use the term “sheeps”. Well, “sheep” is the correct word in more ways than one.
Also, you should note that Derek Hong did not say “sorry” (as far as I can see from the press reports). He said that he stood corrected. I don’t think he’s sincere at all.

Hi Quack #91,

Don’t worry. The public has a short memory. Pastor Derek Hong’s existence will be forgotten soon if you wait long enough. Public lynching does take effort, time and resources and a lot of fanatical hatred – people in general are just too lazy to do anything drastic. Anyway, popular disagreement is not religious persecution.

re Dada,

what Pastor Hong did was wrong, that’s it. he was not sincere in “apology”. to say he “stumbled” is your rather kind interpretation. not sure about reaching God’s perfection, but there has been a more aggressive proselytising to gain new members, reported by MSM.

all humans err, for him to remain a pastor is a big error. seriously, any figure heads in any religion should be put in their place if they abuse that position of influence politically. in this case it just so happened he’s from the said religion.

would a negative backlash be different for other religious heads?

91) Quack on May 20th, 2009 3.53 pm

Quack, church leaders will always use the term you used “do not judge” but e bible c;early stated that judge your leaders by their fruits. So when you becomes a leader in a church, you suddenly open yourself to judgment by those you are shepherding and a high judgment from God. Sorry, that is the perks that come with leadership.

Quack, please worship God and no men…. you are evidently worshiping your pastor. You try to find excuse for him, and make him a fatherly figure to help him gain understanding from the public. There is nothing more effective than a genuine apology statement from him with the “SORRY” word. He has not done so. If he has done so, the Singapore public is usually more forgiving. However, what the public hate is arrogance … since his apology is not genuinely felt by the public, the public feel that his is not repentant at all.

You mentioned he is like a father to you, will someone who treat you like a child make use of you by manipulating your emotions to influence you do what he want you to do. He actually misuse your trust in him. As a pastor, he is right to stand for what he believes is the biblical truth but he should also know that as a man of position in a church, he has to be careful NOT to misuse that position of influence and trust to manipulate those who trust and look up to him. It is very easy to fall into that TRAP…. because power corrupts more easily than money.

I am sure he did am not apologize during service for misleading the church in the AWARE issue…. Am I right?

Let’s not get hot over this issue and let’s move on.

All people must live in harmony and not getting angry with each other.

I will worship GOD that is for sure.

Let’s learn to forgive and forget.

I sincerly hope that all of us ( people ) can do that.

Have peace in your heart and we will be happy.

Thank you

People,

Wah lau.
Remember the ‘marked by generosity’.

We ought to be a little more forgiving.

Besides a lot of what we read from the local media reports were second hand news so don’t believe every word you read from our papers/web news. Media is never just (worldwide) because they need to make story a little lopsided in order to spice up the coverage value. Were any of you guys actually there in person to hear the Pastor’s apology, if not let take things with a pinch of salt.

If there’s really something wrong, pretty sure if there is a higher power; ‘GOD’ will do something.

We are here involved in squabbling over an apology issue but it doesn’t deny the fact is there really was something ‘unusual’ with the trainer’s material for the AWARE program to respective schools. This is why MOE suspended all programs. It doesn’t matter a thing whether it was a sincere apology or who won the AWARE re-election because the only fact is we are living in a very conservative nation regardless of race or religion.

re: mice is nice
would a negative backlash be different for other religious heads?

No. It’s the same for all. Singaporeans loved to comment on issues.
If you have been keeping track of past incidents, there were many cases throughout Singapore’s short history involving Priests, Pastors, Taoist temple leaders, Buddhist Monks and other religious leaders. They all had ‘enjoyed’ their fair share of backlash from general public. The only difference though was that this recent episodes were more intense because we are more IT Savvy and web is by far the only avenue for Singaporeans to express their ‘2 cents’ of opinion. Surely nobody would want to go to the speaker’s ‘dead’ corner to do that and no ‘taboo’ theme is permitted.

[#96 Quack]

No one is stopping you from worshipping your God.

But if your God is the Bible God, then I would suggest that you are worshipping a Jewish god that is racist, malevolent and genocidal. Just read or review the Bible – that’s the challenge.

let’s put the everything to REST.

Let’s live in peace and harmony.

97) dada on May 21st, 2009 10.22 am

dada, although I agree that all should be more forgiving but in this case it involves a spiritual leader and his abuse of power. I would expect a leader in a church to have a higher standard of morality and responsibility but he misuse that trust given to him.

This is the problem…. A christian who do do think will use terms like “Let God be the judge”, “God will do something”, “God is watching”, “God knows the best” ….. Although all these phrases are the truth but these have been used by many leaders to conditioned the common christians to disengage their mind and follow blindly ….. not following God, but the leader himself. These are commonly used to find an excuse for the wrong doings a leader have committed.

A common believe will reason out the “because God did not do anything, God must be on his side, and if God is n his side, he must be right”. WHY is GOD not doing anything if he has done wrong? Maybe that is the reason why HE gave you a brain. When God really judge, HE seldom destroy a single person, those who stand with him in this issue has to answer for it too.

re Dada,

you are right about the intensity Pastor Derek Hong is facing for his misconduct. to be fair, its not the norm for religious leaders to abuse his position of influence on that level. he has done something very wrong- to misuse the pulpit & stir religious intolerance.

in your opinion he has done nothing gravely wrong, its also your opinion he did “apologise”. the world as you see it, through tinted vision?

can i ask what will God do? oh wait, you can’t answer cos you are not God. realistically, there are judges & lawyers & law enforces who do not wait for God to take action. Judges do make decisions with moral implications, & so do parents, and they’re not God. so please do not make a fool of yourself using God’s name too casually.

………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………

i do feel that humans err, more so when they are blindly devoted to an overwhelming single cause/believe with little of any others to act as a balance. when that happens, they are likely to follow a set of doctrine dogmatically even when there are facts pointing out the flaws in it, but it is often too late to reverse the intellectual hubris.

the way some defend blindly a person, not the bible or their God in this case, also shows attachment can be unhealthy if not dangerous. dangerous in the sense that its not what wrong is done, its who does it that determine what is right or wrong.

As as u can see, we are coming to understand how to be more FORGIVING,

If we want to.

Be Peacefull and live in Harmony, everything will turn out for the better.

So why put it inside your heart,

I know everyone can forgive and forget.

Love People , love the world, Love the people around you

do not forgive unconditionally, do not love blindly. surely the anti-gay camp doesn’t have much love, the Aware saga that spawn numerous threads is prove.

in their eyes neutral is pro, nothing but condemnation will do.

hey guys, hear the following regarding safe sex education.

http://www.mrbrownshow.com/2009/05/18/the-mrbrown-show-safe-sex-education/

hi Joel Low,

thanks for the link. good to lighten the mood.

^.^