My, my, you’re insulting our esteemed and honourable leaders when you call Mugabe, Thein Sein and Kim Yong Nam “notorious thugs”. They are our leaders’ buddies and soul mates! As such, we must be more magnanimous and not begrudge them spending our blood, sweat and tears money hosting them.

To quote a line from the UK Hit Comedy “Yes, Prime Minister”, “morality is a luxury”. Our leaders are paid to be immoral.

you should watch S02 E04.. damn funny how they set fiscal/monetary policy.. can run parallels to us in SG

So who’s next as wealthy visitor ? Osama ?

“Zimbabwe (Mugabe), Burma (Thein Sein) and North Korea (Kim Yong Nam) ”
Are they staying in Istana to keep our president’s company ? Otherwise how come no one report on them ? Isn’t they dangerous, or maybe not as they did not lose billons of state money ?

To survive, some people have to resort to prostitute themselves.

SIN has vice industries; Geylang/Joo Chiat Whorerlands for sex, Marina/Sentosa IRs for gambling. BUT, these will not be able to keep the Country going for long as most customers are likely to be Singaporeans themselves, generating little profits from foreigners. HOWEVER, these industries generate much social and cultural disturbances. It’s one big misstep to missdeed!!

As we know, prostitutes have little choices; be they thug, leper or sick customers, so long as they help in survival(of the pros), they are welcome.

Of course, murderers, barbarians(gangsters), looters, corrupters/corrupted and educated rascals and all are welcome. The more the merrier for the prostitutes to maintain high incomes, but they(prostitutes) have to take cares not to infect themselves with HIV(fatal sex disease).

patriot

A dictator begets another dictator.
A dictatorship begets a dictatorship.
A heartless leader begets another heartless leader.
A ruthless government begets another ruthless government.
A greedy society begets another greedy society.

our banks are on the blacklist, do you smell something? i wonder why… hmmmmmm

We have many laundry machines here.

Recently they heard about AWARE inclusive policy so they brought their wives and daughters to join and same time to do some laundry washing.
I am not surprised Maddoff might come here to start a ponzi scheme., of course after serving time in a resort.

Think there will come a time when the rich can just go around murdering innocent people without feeling any guilty no more, as long as you have lots of $$$ to throw, a few lives are just peanuts.

Ya boy help from PAP government is minimum. Only for 3 months at a time. And yet spend 2 millions on Singapore Day in London and all these money. PAP has lost its integrity and good faith.

matrix,

The Singapore Government spent S$6M for Singapore Day 2009.

yes not too long ago, Suharto & Marcos were given similar treatment….so what is new? Money talks and bull**** walks. This is Singapore man. Wu Liao

The price we pay for our prosperity (and no ‘natural resources’) is an eternal pandering to any country who can give us business.

Actually, am just a bit baffled. If these people travel anywhere in the world, on what basis exactly would a country ban them entry? Do they have a criminal record or judgment issued by any court of law? So if you are say the Immigration department, on what basis do you ban entry for these people? Apart from SIngapore, what other countries in the world would let them pass through? Does the UK, France or Germany let them through? Sometimes, loud noises are made by countries such as the US as a reflection of their foreign policy. Is America’s Axis of evil our axis too? Please think.

Singapore government spent millions on Singapore Day in London to try to lure rich & skillful Singaporeans who can contribute to local economy greatly back to this vault. & didn’t spare an easy cent in helping poor citizens here & citizens who have lost their jobs. & instead, continue to allow foreigner workers to grab jobs that could be done by locals & push general wages down, all for its own selfish economic gain & greed.

North Korea has a bad reputation especially in regards to the recent missile launch over Japan, despite protests. & Singapore government is associating themselves with such a government? Oh… My… God… Totally evil!

And if you want to be a neutral neutral territory so that some of these pariah nations can be engaged and drawn to the negotiation table, you dont exclude, you include. Allowing freedom of movement is in no way a nod to whatever atrocities these people may have committed. That’s why many of us are not in politics.

Besides I dont recall any convention which imposes an obligation on countries to ban entry to controversial political figures of the world.

Yeah, scrap this redundant presidential post and the multi-million dollars salary saved plus all the money wasted on hosting these questionable “dignitaries” could be better spent on helping the growing tide of jobless ppl and the under-priviledged.

Well, if one understands the realist paradigm of our foreign policy, this should come as no surprise.

Yes, I despise these individuals, but I’m pretty sure individual opinion and value systems hold no weight in strategic policymaking where interests and the ability to be a trusted nation by all sides of the coin are more impt..

loyala: I totally concur. The visceral reaction by some of the commentators here smacks of ignorance of the way foreign policy works. Our openness to Burma is the exact reflection of ASEAN’s stance so that we become the only region in the world to be able to make overtures to Burma to follow the voice of reason. The same with North Korea. Why would they choose to use Singapore as a neutral site for a meeting? Becos we dont adopt the black and white policy adopted by some other nations.

I also see a lot of people condemning minister’s salary. This keeps cropping up. I sometimes wonder what people would rather have. Politicians who are paid pittance and then engage in corruption by taking money under the table, rewarding cronies and enriching themselves by awarding projects to companies they and their cronies are related to. DOnt have to look far for examples of this one. Or would you rather have a system where people are paid well enuf they dont have to be tempted by the kerc$$ng. And besides, it is already so hard to attract leaders into politics, how do you propose that you get talented people like SHanmugam into the government when he would be much better off in private practice earning 3 or 4 times the amount he would in politics? Do you expect people to enter politics solely on the basis of altruistic zeal??

Besides, I really wonder how poor are the Singapore poor? Have you been to any of the grassroots session when the Singapore poor sought help for payment of their water or utility bills or else these services would be cut off? I have. In the middle of the session, their mobile phone goes off. Yes, our poor people carry mobile phones. Some also have cable TV.

A lot of people talk of foreign labour taking away singapore jobs. Have you been an entrepreneur? Do you know how difficult it is to get SIngaporeans with a positive attitude to work? My sister has a catering service and she has immense difficulty getting labour. Her view is that SIngaporeans want a cushy job and they want to be paid well. And then, if they dont feel like working, they will just not turn up and leave you the boss in a lurch! Is there any wonder then that employers prefer to employ foreigners who are hungry to work for less pay?

I am not discounting that there maybe poor people deserving of help but you would be surprised there are indeed channels where they can seek help. I am also not chastising all Singapore workers. I am just saying there is more than meets the eye and sometimes we must look in the mirror and ask is anything wrong with us?

Modernist,

IMHO, you are not being objective here. The argument is not the high pay but how it is benchmarked. If they wish to compare with G-7 countries politicians, or mark it to GDP growth, then I also don’t mind. But they benchmark to the highest paid private sector individual = they will be paid highest no matter what. That is what people in this forum are debating here. It has nothing to do with getting “top talent”. Do not forget that private sector and public sector have different perks and priviledges, it is unreasonable to equate the 2.

But Dr Frankenstein: Thats exactly my point. What use is it to benchmark it against G7 when people you want to attract is from the private sector. Its a push pull effect. Unless one is so idealistic and self sacrificial or perhaps, very honourable, the great tendency is to stay in private sector and earn big bucks and the result will be a perpetual chronic problem of leadership succession. What alot of people, yrself inclusive, is ideal. But it doesnt work well in the real world. I can see the argument against it and the practical difficulty that it poses. Coming from the private sector I completely understand why people would not want to enter politics if the rewards are not attractive enuf.

especially now, when people throw kerosene and chairs at you…

Modernist, you are funny, really funny…

firstly, if the talent will really want to serve the people, they wouldn’t need to be paid highly in order to be drawn in…so what do you say about people who need high pay in order to motivate them to remain asministers? we will assume that he is drawn in more by the paycheck as priority rather then to serve the people, but of course that’s assumption…hey, if they wants to earn that much money, then don’t serve just go into private practice to earn. you will be surprised at how many people out there will be willing to do the same job, and it is from the heart and not for the pay.

and Woa, by saying this “politicians who are paid pittance and then engage in corruption by taking money under the table, rewarding cronies and enriching themselves by awarding projects to companies they and their cronies are related to.” you sure are repeating what our dear extraordinary leader has been saying to justify their pay…and modernist, that is very illogical on your part, shame on you. you see, to the common people, if you want to get high paid in order to prevent yourself from going down the path of corruption, that’s already a strange perception… i have always find it strange….more pay to prevent corruption, ironic.

furthermore, when you say this “would you rather have a system where people are paid well enough they don’t have to be tempted by the kerc$$ng” then you are simply implying that this leaders are corruptible, with all due respect no insult meant, and it was only because of high pay that’s why they are not involve in corruption. how about something else modernist, the people want a gahmen that is well, but not crazily paid and is willing to serve the people and not corruptible. comprehende?

lastly, although this may not have a link with local context, and modernist, perhaps you have forgotten or don’t know something, but in the private sector in the states, it is sometimes the top talent/exec that lead the organization to their destruction. i don’t have to spell it out for you must i? and do you know why? partly, it is because they put their self-interest before stakeholders interest.

“Do you know how difficult it is to get SIngaporeans with a positive attitude to work?” Do you know maslow’s motivation theory? go and check it out, perhaps you will understand why singaporeans have little motivation etc…alot of them can’t even fulfill their psychological needs. and do not assume that all singaporeans are like this, based on your own perception…you can’t see the whole world from where you stand….

“Besides, I really wonder how poor are the Singapore poor?” and for this answer please ask dr lily neo and she can tell you about those people that she is trying to help. “but you would be surprised there are indeed channels where they can seek help” and well well, i will like to end this, do you remember when dr lily neo try to request for more aid to help the needys in her GRC? what was the retort she receive? and have you read about how hard is it for those that are in real need to get these assistance? i bet you don’t since you said this…lol

modernist, good for you…great mind think alike…just like extraordinary leaders

Modernist,

There is a reason why there are private and public sectors. If there are such people whom $$$ is the only criteria then let them stay there. Private sector employees face risk of the sack/pay cut/no bonus if they cannot up the bottom line, where else no such risk in public sector. Corruption/incompetence/greed will still occur even if top dollar is paid. Just look at the Senior ICA supt who was convicted of taking bribes and wall street bank executives. We need people who SERVE like NSman serve their country and be adequately compensated and not demand the sky and the earth. That is plain arrogance and sadly that is what is happening nowadays. Do not forget that the term public servants.

aiyoyo

why like that huh?

man on the street lost jobs leh, those elites still hosting people? for what?

what logic? sad story..

aiyoyo

the common people here will not benefit if those enter enter politics to reap the reward and not to firstly serve the people. since for them, rewards come first, then with no reward, does that mean there is no work? so contradicting…my dear friends…we are talking about the public sector here and you can’t lump the two together…if you want to, make sure that the input/output ratio are similar…public sector mus b as efficient as private sector.

the point i wanna make is that – public servants have a different psyche to private sector execs/ technocrats. Paying people high salaries doesnt mean that they do a public service job better.

I live in HK, and have spoken to a full-time district counsellor. He’s not an elected person, and does not belong to any political party. All he wants to do is HELP. He sits in his office all day – people come in with problems, and he connects the dots. he gives advice on next steps…he connects people with lawyers, govt depts, etc. He earns his money through commissions. He lives with them, among them.

Its so different from the model we have in Singapore.

Is it better? who knows…our social structure is very different from HK.

Again – the point i want to say is that politics and public service are different things, and require different people. Getting a smart, maverick, scholar go-getter who can provide results doesnt mean he’ll do well when it comes to serving the public.

Dr Frankenstein, i have post 2 comments that is similar to your view, but is under moderation. hopefully this will appear. a leader must be willing to serve the people, that’s a true leader and the people will benefit from it

If you think people are drawn to politics becos of this innate calling for servitude or honour or as someone puts it national service, then you are being idealistic. Politics is like any other other career, like a vocation, just like being doctors, lawyers, architects. Forget this division between public service and private service. This does not mean people who go into politics are only doing it for the money. Of course there is also element of servitude and sacrifice. But take away that reward, you only open the arena to people who enter politics for all the wrong reasons. They use their office as an means for personal gains. You see this all too often all over the world. The very people whom this thread villify probably entered politics for just the wrong reasons and employed their might to ensure their political survival, which we people here so abhor.

Personally i think what it needs is a balance. There is nothing wrong in running a country like a corporation. It is efficient and it can be rewarding. We can do it becos we are small. But we also have immense challenges. As long as the corporation is run with a heart, me thinks it is desirable. ANd even in the corporate world, there are institutions which are run like that. You see, nobody in this world owes us a living and you need good honest people to steer the nation. I’d rather be here in SINGAPORE INC than in some neighbouring countries where the leaders blatantly get a commission for US$1/5 billion here and there for every government projects (and they call it service fees).

In the general scheme of things, if you really think about it, the SIngapore government really has not done too badly. It can be a bit less patriarchal, a bit more relaxed and allow more personal freedom. Then, it would be a fairly good model for others to emulate.

And all these people who chastise the government abut the man in the street losing jobs, do they realise that the government does not control the private sector about the hire and fire. If a private company retrenches a worker, why shd the government be blamed? Is what the government is doing by literally giving companies hard cash and tell them please dont retrench yr workers, exactly the opposite what people are complaining about. As I said before, i had dinner with a singapore client who employs workers to work at cargo section. He is soooo hapy for the first time ever he was getting hard cash from the government, not once but twice, just so he keeps his workers??

There are things which are even beyond the government’s control. If you see the public sector start to retrench people, then all the condemnation here is justified. If the unemployment are casualties from the private sector, think again. What do you expect the government to do? They have already given the cash to tell the employers to keep the workers. What else do you expect them to do? Take over the company and turn every enterprise into a state enterprise? Think.

stuck in time: You may be right. Perhaps I am mistaken. I am only basing my opinion from my experience and observation. And my siblings who are in business and who have issues with the attitude of Singaporean workers. All I am saying is – this is not a black or white issue. People shd not be absolute in their thinking. There are real problems in leadership succession which if you are not in politics, you might not fully appreciate it. I am not with PAP or its youth wing or whatever. But it is my personal view that if politics shd be for people who have the love to serve without expecting rewards, you would have immense problems to attract talent especially in a country as small as ours. Just to take an example, in the legal service previously, many legal officers quit and opted for private sector jobs becos the pay was not commensurative. The public sector was bleeding talent. And I am not even saying that the pay of politicians shd be pegged at the highest. But I see no wrong in them being well paid. It’s just my personal view and food for your thought. You dont have to agree with me. But just think about it.

balance is right, but it is missing in singapore context….and in singapore context, how may of our dear leaders are doing it from the heart? we are all entitld to our perception, just like ours may be too idealistic, we find yours too propagandist…furthermore, when you say that “take away that reward, you only open the arena to people who enter politics for all the wrong reasons.” Mr Modernist, that sort of imply that our people enter the politics for the right reason which is the reward. come on, who are you trying to kid, if someone places reward over the people, it could also means that getting the reward is more important then the people…your text are signifying it, just that you are in denial.

Hey Modernist, running country like a corporation is ok, provided it is based on a learning organization model, whereby the higher management is not learning disabled and motivates their employees through satisfaction of need. an organization that expect a employee to put in high level of effort without providing them with their outcome that an employee desired will end up with no performance. however, you are wrong to say that singapore is a fairly good model for others to emulate partly due to the fact that they are suffering from the success syndrome. do you think obama will get elected if he don’t appeal to the citizens and listen to their needs?

“do they realise that the government does not control the private sector about the hire and fire.” Modernizer, wrong again…fiscal and monetary policy that our gahmen engage in has a pivotal role in this situation. the policy they decide will inevitably affect firing and retrenchment…so it is not no control, it is a matter of degree of control…somehow i think someone is trying to minimize somebody else blame…and for your info, people are complaining about the effectiveness of the JCS, not the gahmen is not doing anything…. the gahmen can try, but will what they did work, is the answer people are seeking.

“What do you expect the government to do? They have already given the cash to tell the employers to keep the workers. What else do you expect them to do? Take over the company and turn every enterprise into a state enterprise?”

Hey Mr Modernizer, the answer is easy and simple, things that mr KJ and TKL has been trying to advocate, a more practical solution, if you miss their post else where. You can try to give a little money to keep the workers, however if there is no one out there to buy your products and services, will you still want to retain those workers? let me return it to you….THINK and THINK…it goes around in cycle….

Modernizer, “But I see no wrong in them being well paid” neither do i, but i do see a point when they are been extraordinary paid…as for attracting of talent? you won’t know until you tried…that’s what some people has been advocating, you need to have high rewards in order to attract them to serve in the public sector…however, there are really people out there who has the heart to serve the people, not because of reward, but because of their self-actualization needs.

and please take note, my stand is…it is ok to offer reward in order to get results or draw in talent, but that reward can be substantial, but not ridiculous. when you have high rewards, like wise you will attract people who goes more for the rewards rather then to serve the people, an opposite of what you advocate.

i believe what we people want here is the best for our country and the people even though you modernizer and i have different opinion.constructive conflict is good as we learn from the differences and create a synergistic solution…Singapore needs to shift to a new and stable state in order to move on

stuck in time: We share the same sentiments and I am learning through discourse. I like the new media for allowing us strangers to exchange ideas. I am a newbie here.

Coming back to issue on point, we are actually somewhat in agreement. It is a question of balance. And it does somewhat boils down to a numbers game. The difficulty is who sets the ebnchmark. There’s when it veers into the realm of controversy.

modernist on May 8th, 2009 2.02 pm

“If you think people are drawn to politics becos of this innate calling for servitude or honour or as someone puts it national service, then you are being idealistic. …..”

Yet the people made to serve 2 years of NS and 10 years reservist cycle by the government to sacrifice their time and possibly their life for the same innate calling for servitude, honour and in the name of national service.

I am willing to buy your either of the conflicting arguments presented by my government. But not both at the same time skewed to their advantage.

I will shut-up forever, if;

a) they pay market rates for my service rendered during NS pegged to what a world class armed-force (they call themselves that not me so I’ll peg it to US and UK… if they change their mind I’ll peg to Msia if they stop playing themselves up) pays their soldier, even though by their argument, I should be paid what I could have earned in the 2.5 years I wasted doing my NS (goodwill discount from me); or

b) they pay themselves no higher than what the highest politician in the world earns.

So what is it? Are we supposed to have a sense of sacrifice to serve the land we are born in or not? If so, let the leaders lead. If they say “YES”, lead by example (lots of SAF scholars in parliament, all forgot the SAF core value — leadership by example … sigh) and take option b. If they say no, be consistent and implement a) for consistency. There is no other way out.

I find it absurd that you dared insult our MM Lee and all our old guards who led and served despite being paid modestly. Are you suggesting they had been corrupt?

Yes, Modernizer.that’s where i agree…been paid sufficiently to motivate is acceptable, but however, that will depend on the individual. to common people like me, around or slightly higher then obama like pay is an appropriate amount, however to others, they will want more as they are managing billion dollar economy.

in the end, everything boils down to human perception, and sadly, human perception can really distort the views and that’s where discord comes in that’s why i always like it when they say “one man’s meat is another man’s poison” however, one thing is evident is the need for change in order to survive both the present and the future. they really need to get back to reality and find out what the people on the ground wants…no matter what out view is over here, i believe we really want the best for singapore and the people

Modernist,

It is certaintly a strange logic/ benchmark you are using. You gripe that yr sister cannot get Singapore to do the job coz pay is low and work is hard at the same time you say “I completely understand why people would not want to enter politics if the rewards are not attractive enuf.”. Well you can have your cake and eat it buddy. Welcome to the real world and not the ivory tower. What is a job and an expense to some is a talent to others. Who draws the line here? Two legs good four legs bad. Uniquely Singaporean.

I really dont know how Roy has managed to twist my words until I dont even recognise the conclusion especially in the last sentence. LOL. WHatever lah. You dont have to agree with me. I have made my points clear enough and of course many will disagree, rightly or wrongly. If everybody agrees, this world will be in black and white and will not be in Technicolor. And I think stuck in time gets my drift. Others dont seem to see beyond the fact that I have a different view point and therefore deserve to be demolished.

I would really like to see in an alternative universe if people like Shanmugam would foresake a multimillion dollar career (in annual take home pay) in place of I dont know what kind of pay you say a SIngapore minister deserves – all for the love of servitude. We are not in 1965 freshly orphaned by Malaysia. Circumstances, social and political, are so vastly different.

A vocation like an engineer, lawyer or doctor, is a profession where there is an element of servitude coupled with expertise or skills that is coveted. People study so hard in the University so they can become professionals because they eye a good career path and the pot of goal at the end of their rainbow. Politics, as I see it, and you obviously dont agree, is also a kind of vocation and an alternative career. Of course there is servitude and pride and honour involved. The question is why does it deserve a miserable reward, just because it involves national service (and I am not talking about yr military stint)? I am sure if the old guard is still around, they would also deserve commensurative remuneration.

The example of my sister is a very anecdotal example of the struggles faced by a small entrepreneur in SIngapore (not related to the point about leadership but my observation about Singapore unemployment gripes and the work attitude – everything also must blame government) . You may call it parochial but you people dont have to be unkind and put everything down. I was just trying to illustrate a point that employers do face problems with local employment. I said it very clearly before that I am not making a generalisation that ALL singapore workers attitude are bad. I just cant deny her experience which caused her so much stress for the past 20 years wearing the hat of an employer and I thought I was sharing so people at least have the opportunity to see a different point of view.

Modernist ,
you seem to distract the issue. People don’t have problem recognizing that high pay is needed as reward for merit and good work but people have problem understanding why we need to pay so astronomical money to gahmen who don’t have notion of accountability and responsibility, and moreover with conflict of interest, and one who can choose at will to decide in situation when to be a businessman and government figure to maximize their benefit and protectionism.

Daniel: Since when does government does not have accountability and responsibility? When you go to the ballot box, thats where you show your sentiments as voters and citizens who you want in office. In the interim, if there is any governmental action you dont like, there are channels for your complaints, through yr MP, papers or internet, over here. DOnt thik for a second that they are not reading these posts. But I completely lost you there from the last 2 lines, becos I dont know what you are talking about!

Take Najib Tun Razak. Minister of Defence of Malaysia then. Buy helicopter and submarine. Get crony company to provide consultancy services belonging to Razak Baginda (who then refused to pay Mongolian woman commission and we know what happened to her). Of the purchase price of billions, 10% goes to crony company for service fees. God knows what service was provided for the transaction. Do they have acountability? Businessmen conflict with goverment? Are they practising protectionism -if thats what you mean by protecting their own interest? Do we have these kind of leaders? I donch think so.

“Daniel: Since when does government does not have accountability and responsibility?”
Are you kidding me with the question ?

Don’t ask me to ballot lot because I haven’t have a chance to vote since late 1980s (only one time in my whole life as far), and I think 50% of those who haven’t the chance vote will agree.

Just giving your own-one side examples means having accountability and responsbility ? How about Junta supplying money to boost Singapore economy, should the Junta be our generous benefactor then ?

You know what we talking about or you pretend not. Give accountability and responsibility where it impacts the citizen’s concern (CPF, housing, gst etc). People are not stupid here.

Wow. Such cogent arguments from Daniel until I also dont know how to rebut. It would be nice if he can suggest constructive alternative. Actually I dont know how to focus on his arguments. Sorry I stupid. He seems to have strayed quite a bit from the points I made about difficulty in getting leadership succession. Anyway, lets just agree to disagree. At least I got free speech.

Modernist: “Do we have these kind of leaders?”

You donch think so does not mean there aren’t such leaders in Spore. Agree? At least you get to know about the particular case in Malaysia. You think Spore leaders will leak such kind of info for you to see them in bad light? They don’t need to do it that way, as you have proven by falling for their “they have to pay themselves too much to prevent corruption!!

Is Mr Chiam See Tong considered a talent able to lead this country, if not for his age?

laundry machines? really… tell me more… i am innocent, i dont know much eh. ha ha ha

When you asked why is SIngpaore stil doing busines with Myanmar, with Suharto and Marco?

Realpolitik.

I recalled a rport in The Economist that when Singapore roundly condemned Vietnam’s invasion of Cambodia, it did not stopped Singapore being the “largest” investor in Vienam then.

9/11 2001.
Majority are Saudi….including Bin Laden.
Wabhabism (sorry can’t get spelling correct) was alleged the roots of al those Muslim Fundamentalism.
Why was Iraq invaded?
Realpolitik.

Singapore Inc has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders – people like you and me – to generate wealth and substain present ’standard of living”

How does boycotting China 60s, Vietnam 70s, Myanmar, Suharto, Marco, et al help Singapore.

Will Gods then feed Singapore for beign righteous and on moral high grounds?

On the issue of singapore being run as a corporation has benefits for the country. Since when has singapore been truly run as a corporation ? Is that any aspects in the governance of the country that bears resemblance to how a corporation is run ? And when we talk about corporation , what sort of corporation are we talking about ? A modern, open, engaging, understanding, willingness to listen, adaptive, multi-dimensional corporation or simply a corporation that just don’t use the brain and just go through the motion ? This “SINGAPORE INC” corporation is just a useless piece of rotten log that looks more like some tribal group when homo sapiens first emerge on this planet.

“Take Najib Tun Razak. Minister of Defence of Malaysia then. Buy helicopter and submarine.”

Why do we care about what other country leader does badly ? Why not care about your own country where the leader isn’t any better and can only use mainstream media and laws to hide their immortality and to create make-believe world. Law to prevent private investigators for investigating gahmen, and law against whistleblower ? Kidding me, boy… Just because they make the law to fit their agenda doesn;t make them any less kangaroo. How about law to commensurate themselves with pay better than corruption ? How about oil price not directly linked to the transport hike ? Any bullshit from them where it matter to citizens ?

aiyoyo

well only folks that went thru life talks/writes reality…

scholars/elites write/talk well, but can they really work well; doubt it

aiyoyo

50) corporation/non-corporation

which is why in my comment to modernizer, i said that provided it is run as a learning organization…, which in SGP Inc case, it isn’t

Modernizer,

what you say is entirely theoretical “through yr MP, papers or internet, over here” firstly, does the MP really listen to the people who needs help? i doubt many of them does….i have repeated this example so many times….look at Dr Lily Neo who tries to help the needy people in her ward, and what was the reply to her, or should i say retort? is that the response you will expect from someone who is willing to listen and help?

and Modernizer, regarding “accountability and responsibility” have you forgotten the TC, GIC and TH investment fiasco that result in huge loses ranging for TC’s millions to GIC and TH billions, that was kept quiet for a long time. In TC case, when call for “accountability and responsibility” was issued, interested parties were referred to respective TC which play a game of tai-ji and the answer was murky, if even obtained at all…do you consider that “accountable and responsible”? and to add on, the mayor who didn’t even know about the extraordinary bonuses that some staff receive, is that been “accountable and responsible”?

I have no wish to flame you Modernizer, but just my perception which is totally different from yours. and Daniel, chill!

To modernist

The way I see it. You seem unable to provide solid counterpoints to enable people to see what you are trying to bring across clearly. The tend to resort to theatrics that suggest people misconstrue you despite your points… But what are these?

You claim that corruption WILL happen without high pay, and thus I asked if you are suggesting MM Lee was corrupt? If you cannot explain yourself, I guess your points are flawed. Try to stick to a point, follow through so people take you seriously. You float from 1 point to another when people cast doubts on one.. you resort to theatrics. Not very good for a meaningful discussion if u want other to see your points; unless of course you are here just to throw stones.

“I would really like to see in an alternative universe if people like Shanmugam would foresake a multimillion dollar career (in annual take home pay) in place of I dont know what kind of pay you say a SIngapore minister deserves – all for the love of servitude. We are not in 1965 freshly orphaned by Malaysia. Circumstances, social and political, are so vastly different.”

FYI, the alternate universe is here. Tim Geithner forsake a lucrative career for a position to save the american economy. Closer to home, the late Ong Teng Chong forsake a lucrative career as an architect, Kennth Jeyarathenam forsake a lucrative career for politics without fear that he will lose out on $, and the young Lee Kuan Yew could have earned a lot being a lawyer. Finallt, Chee Soon Chuan put his 5 digits a month on the line for what he believes in.

Nobody is asking the Shanmugams to starve… just peg their pay to the highest politicians and that will be the end of storey. Does the politician in Japan, US and UK starve despite their higher cost of living? Yes?

If you ask me.. if Shanmugam will quit if we peg his pay to Obama, I’ll be glad to wave goodbye to him and let someone else with a heart like Kenneth Jeyarathnam to serve as Finance Minister.

This PAP govt has already lost its moral compass a long time ago. Here are the examples:

1. Overpaying themselves and underperforming
2. Dishonesty in winning elections
3. Cruelly incarcerating people all their lives and separating them from their families
4. Hosting and wheeling & dealing with corrupt dictators, despots and crooks and before Obama, the Bush admin
5. Not supporting genuine human rights causes: Palestinian issue, Au yang Shu Chi, etc
6. Adopting cowardly foreign policies ( see also #4) by keeping silent on North Korea
7. Oppressing the citizens with unjust laws e.g. POA etc under the guise of Internal Security
8. Suing people who dared to challenge the boundaries

Modernizer,
let’s me ask you a question.
Does highlighting other bad examples of leaders from other countries make our Leeders any more accountable and responsible, and also make your argument more constructive ? If not, why you so “constructive” to use bad eggs as a example. You mean the whole world there really one bad egg to benchmark against our leeders ? So does it imply that just because one thief is less worse than another thief doesn’t make the former anymore a thief ?

Please if you want to be more constructive, use a more positive and constructive one yourself. The reasons why we land in this dire straits is because our leeders become so constructive that it become lame excuses to get away and become complacent, or am I alone to conclude such observation ?

Of course, you don’t know how to answer when the rest do understand my question but then what’s new for those who work for PAP ?

Dear All,

Why PAP ministers salary are so high is because there are no competition with them while ordinary Singaporean workers are constantly compete with FT for jobs according to the pay level set by MOM.

We are not anti-foreginers but the policies has create a depressing salary for most singaporean.
Tell me can any Singapore survived with $500 – Work Permit
$1800 -S pass who are associate degree or degree of don’t know what Uni.

Can with sub-con our Gov out and I think we can! Anyone from Obama team can do better jobs than our high pay ministers.

To Modernist,

Do you think that the citizens should be held ransom to the astronomical ministerial pay? Who is to stop them to pay themselves in the tens of millions in the future? When is enough ever enough since we are the taxpayers that fund their salaries.

How many of us have had the opportunity to vote in the last 20 years with all this gerrymandering going on each election? Like you say, when we go to the ballot box, we can exercise that vote; if we ever get there in the first place.

After so many years with this top money for talents to govern the country, cracks are beginning to show proving that it does not work.

One simple reason being Ministers know they are indispensable. There is no such a thing as hire & fire like the corporate world. What have the talents done for SG? Can anyone name one ingenious policy for the betterment of the people? They don’t have to, do they?

Another reason for its failure is because it is taking away the precious few talents who can contribute so much to the industry in their relevant expertise, expanding the GDP in real terms.

To me, this ‘top talent’ thing is more for the advancement of the ruling party than for Spore. It seems they very much fear to loose the talents to opposition camps. How can keeping them in the ruling party with top money help any Sporean? I say keeping them because they are attracted there for the money as clearly spelt out by the Govt.

i wonder what could S’pore be selling to them? Newater? lol…

I think times are changing , not only for governments , but also for political thugs and dictators , they will find it harder to have a safe haven for their money in the future . Before it was places like Switzerland and Singapore , now that the pressure is on to find out who has accounts where , and Swiss banks have bowed down to pressure , Singapore will follow , and there will be a lot of questions asked in the future .
The Singapore system is opaque , with overpaid government officials , after all its only a very small city , most people in the world don’t even know where or what it is . And when the constitution of a country is not being respected , then questions can be asked about the governments legitimacy , this is the case of Singapore concerning human rights etc etc . When you hear a minister say he is not worried about re-election , only GDP , it speaks for itself . The only reason the government is being talked to on a world level is because it has money to bail out America .
Singapore is a sad place to live ,rampant consumption and waistage , usage of low paid workers , which means Singapore products should be taxed as its unfair competition .
As far as corruption goes , it takes many forms , and Singapore is not immune .
Very interresting to note the population figures for Singapore , the real SIngaporeans , PRs , temporary workers , maybe soon Singaporeans will be a minority , seeing the birthrates and the unoffical ( and hidden) immigration of Singaporeans
From a career point of view , who would really come to Singapore to work , no future , too small , out of the mainstream , with little or no real research only attracts the one man and his dog setups in reality .
Singapore never has been and never will be an example to follow . And its ideas cannot be extrapolated to use in real big countries .